Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
RENAISSANCE O
F RELIGIOUS A
R
T AND ARCHITECTURE
I N T
H
E S
A
N FRANCISCO BAY AREA, 1946-1968
Father William J. Monihan Mary Erckenbrack
Elio Benvenuto A n t ~ n i oSotomayor
Emily Michels Paul Ryan.
Monsignor Robert Brennan Micaela DuCasse
Ethel Souza Mario Ciampi
William Justerna Stephen DeStaebler
Louisa Jenkins Charles Warren C a l l i s t e r
S i s t e r Maria Luisa Vivian Cummings and
Wolf s k i l l Harold W. Cummings
With an Introduction by 

Jane Dillenberger 

Interviews Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

and 

Suzanne B. Riess 

Underwritten by the Flora Lamson Hewlett Fund 

Copyright
@ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
This manuscript i s made available f o r research
purposes. No p a r t of the manuscript may be quoted f o r
publication without the written permission of the
Director of The Bancroft Library of the University of
California a t Berkeley.
Requests f o r permission t o quote f o r publication
should be addressed t o the Regional Oral History Office,
486 Library, and should include i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of the
s p e c i f i c passages t o be quoted, anticipated use of the
passages, and i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of the user.
It is recommended t h a t t h i s o r a l h i s t o r y be c i t e d
a s follows:
To c i t e the volume: Renaissance of Religious A r t 

and Architecture i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 

1946-1968, an o r a l history conducted 1981-1984, 

Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft 

Library, University of California, Berkeley, 

1985. 

To c i t e an individual interview: [ex.] Father 

William J. Monihan, "The Catholic A r t Forum, 

St. Mary's Cathedral, and ~ n d r e '
Girard," an 

o r a l h i s t o r y conducted 1982 by Micaela DuCasse, 

i n Renaissance of Religious A& and Architecture 

i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968, 

Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft 

~ i b r a r ~ , c a l i f ornia , Berkeley,

University bf 

1985. 

Copy No.
TABLE O
F CONTENTS -- Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture i n the
San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
INTRODUCTION by Jane Dillenberger i
INTERVIEW HISTORY iii
V
O
L
U
M
E I
Father William J. Monihan: The Catholic A r t Forum, St. Mary's
Cathedral, and Andre' Girard
Elio Benvenuto: High Points, and Low Points, i n Contemporary
Catholic Church A r t
Emily plichels: Eemories of Father Ileehan 39
Monsignor Robert Brennan: Memories of E f f i e Fortune 49
Ethel Souza: The Junipero Serra Shop, >faiden Lane, San Francisco 60
William Justema: Thoughts of a Concerned A r t i s t and C r i t i c
Louisa Jenkins: Growth i n A r t and S p i r i t 84
S i s t e r Eiaria Luisa Wolfskill: Religious A r t From the Point of View
of an A r t Teacher 95
Ilary Erckenbrack: A
n A r t i s t ' s Religious Works on Tile and i n Clay 119
Antonio Sotomayor: " A r t That ~ x p l a i n s "
Paul Ryan: Beaux A r t Principles and Church Architecture 144
Micaela DuCasse: The Education and Devoted Life Work of a Catholic
A r t i s t 175
Mario Ciampi: A r t i n Architecture--The Newman Center, Berkeley
Stephen DeStaebler: The Newman Center Sanctuary 250
Charles Warren C a l l i s t e r : Creating Places of Worship and
Contemplation
Vivian Cummings and Harold W. Cummings: Curmnings Stained Glass
Studio 320
Robert Olwell: The Greek Orthodox Church, Oakland,
f o r the Renaissance"
and "A Feeling
362
Lucienne Bloch Dimitroff
Family, Fresco, Belief
and Stephen Dimitroff: A r t , Music,
391
Mark Adam: Religious A r t Work Commissions i n the Bay Area 464
Victor Ries: Religious A r t i s t i c Expression i n Metal Sculpture 499
Ruth Levi Eis: The Jewish A r t i s t and the Synagogue 547
APPENDICES
INDEX
INTRODUCTION
This o r a l h i s t o r y presents a pfcture of the a r t i s t i c community which was
responsible f o r creating a s i g n i f i c a n t number of religious landmarks of the
Bay Area, St. Mary's Cathedral and the Temple Emanu-El i n San Francisco, the
Newman Center i n Berkeley, the Christian Science Church i n Belvedere, and the
Greek Orthodox Church of the Ascension i n Oakland. Through conversations
with a r t i s t s , architects, lay leaders and enlightened c l e r i c s , the
circumstances surrounding the building commissions o r i n t e r i o r additions of
these and amumber of other churches and synagogues are described. The
format of the transcribed interview allows f o r informality, immediacy and a
vivid sense of personality. Since those interviewed include architects,
a r t i s t s and craftspersons, a l l of whom may have worked on the same project,
there is an overlapping of reference which is often illuminating, a s when the
a r c h i t e c t Mario Ciampi and the sculptor Stephen de Staebler both discuss
t h e i r work f o r the Newman Center, Berkeley.
Central t o a l l of the interviews are the basic perennial questions about
religion and a r t , the a r t i s t and the commissioner: What does i t mean t o be
a religious a r t i s t ? How do a r t i s t s get commissions from church and
synagogue? What i s the relationship of the a r t i s t ' s personal f a i t h t o the
creative process? What about non-Jewish and non-Christian a r t i s t s i n the
employ of synagogue and church? These questions a r e a l l considered i n the
context of p a r t i c u l a r concrete s i t u a t i o n s and are thus more valuable than the
armchair speculations of those who look on but a r e not professionally
involved.
Underlying the discussion i s the question of the l a s t i n g significance of
the Bay Area movement of a r t f o r the church and synagogue, 1946-1968. Seen
i n the t o t a l context of the times, one would have t o candidly admit t h a t i t
was, f o r the most p a r t , of l o c a l significance only. Aside from Richard
Lippold's glorious baldachino f o r St. Mary's Cathedral, which came a t the
very end of the period studied i n the interviews, there were no commissions
of national significance. Yet the a r t i s t s , architects, c l e r i c s and laypersons
whose work i s the substance of t h i s report did accomplish the purpose
recorded i n the manifesto of the Catholic A r t Forum "to f o s t e r a greater
i n t e r e s t i n and appreciation of l i t u r g i c a l and religious a r t with p a r t i c u l a r
emphasis on the contemporary insofar as i t does not contradict tradition."
As a r e s u l t of t h e i r e f f o r t s , the Catholic Church has been more receptive t o
a modest form of modernism. Local a r t i s t s have been commissioned f o r
l i t u r g i c a l items i n many cases rather than purchasing these from a religious
supply house catalogue.
However, one can r e g r e t t h a t the aims were s o circumscribed. The dictum
"contemporary fnsofar a s It does not contradict tradition" bound the a r t i s t s
t o a representational s t y l e a t a time when the great American a r t i s t s of our
century were creating a new and non-representational style--Abstract
Expressionism. Three of the leaders of t h a t movement, Jackson Pollock,
Barnett Newman and Mark Rothko, did "religious" works, although only Rothko
had the benefit of a church commission i n h i s chapel f o r an ecumenical center
i n Houston.
I n Europe, during the same period, with t h e leadership of the courageous
and p e r s i s t e n t P.gre Couturier, Matisse designed the Chapel a t Vence and Le
Le Corbusier the church a t Ronchamp and the Abbey Latourette, and the alpine
church a t Assy was decorated with religious a r t by Rouault, Lipchitz, Bonnard,
Matisse, ChagalP, Leger, Lurgat and Richier.
Yet the contribution of the people interviewed and those they discussed
must not be undervalued. They introduced the tenets of modernism t o a church
and synagogue who were then using mass-produced items i n a banal s t y l e , and
they championed good craftsmanship and good materials. They revived an
i n t e r e s t i n ancient l i t u r g i c a l a r t forms--stained glass, ceramics, mosaic,
tapestry, and d i r e c t carving i n wood and stone. And they created a climate
of acceptance of modern a r t and architecture which w i l l ready the f i e l d f o r
the next developments of a r t and architecture f o r the church. What lies
ahead i s an uncharted future, but one more open t o the welling up of new
forms and new forces than might have been possible without the pioneering
e f f o r t s of t h i s group.
Jane Dillenberger
Emeritus Professor of Theology and
Visual A r t s
December 1984
Graduate Theological Union
Berkeley, California
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture i n the San Francisco Bay Area
\
Planning f o r a religious a r t and architecture project began i n 1979,
with the awareness t h a t i n the geographically defined San Francisco Bay Area
with its long-standing t r a d i t i o n of f i n e and o r i g i n a l religious building, a
group of artist-advocates, the Catholic A r t Forum, was bringing l i t u r g i c a l
a r t s s t r o n g l y i n t o the twentieth century. This quiet renaissance had been i n
the making since 1946.
Conversations began with William J. Monihan, S.J., f o r many years
l i b r a r i a n of the Gleeson Library of the University of San Francisco, about a
" l i t u r g i c a l a r t s o r a l history." A s enthusiastic about a scheme of recording
through o r a l history the conception and the r e s u l t s of the l i t u r g i c a l a r t s
movement i n the Bay Area a s he was i n 1952 about the organization of the
Catholic A r t Forum, h e suggested interviewees and encouraged us t o pursue
possible sources of funding.
The o r a l history project design proposal stated: "The resurgence of
church construction following World War I1 created a renaissance of related
a r t s and crafts: architecture, painting, sculpture, weaving, and work i n
stained glass, wood and metal. North t o Sonoma County and south t o the c i t y
of San Jose, the Bay Area was the scene of intense creative a c t i v i t y i n the
l i t u r g i c a l a r t s ...strengthened by the flourishing of the secular a r t s i n the
area i n t h a t same period."
Religious artwork i n the Bay Area, from planning t o execution, had gone
largely unrecorded, and so had the association of church lay people and
craftsmen with the a r t i s t s and architects. Tangible evidence of the
association would be v i s i b l e f o r generations, but intangible factors, the
inspiration f o r t h e renaissance, would disappear without thoughtful
documentation.
"...It i s important t o f i n d out from the people involved i n the creation
what the s p i r i t and intention of the time and the work were, and how they
were carried out." The assignment i n 1982 of the proceeds of the Flora
Lamson Hewlett fund t o such a project made i t possible t o begin t o create
the record of t h e renaissance of religious a r t and architecture.
Over the next two years, a s the project came i n t o focus, a list of
interviewees was worked out, mainly drawn from the founding membership of
the Catholic A r t Forum, whose constitutional mandate was "to f o s t e r i n t e r e s t
and appreciation of l i t u r g i c a l and religious a r t of the Roman Catholic
tradition, with p a r t i c u l a r emphasis on the contemporary i n s o f a r as i t does
not contradict tradition. "
Micaela DuCasse, muralist, whose interview is i n the f i r s t volume, was
close t o the project from the beginning. With sculptor Ruth Cravath, who
had i n a 1977 o r a l history memoir t o l d of h e r own l i t u r g i c a l work i n the
1950s, Micaela DuCasse did s h o r t interviews with a r t i s t and teacher Emily
Michels, and Junipero Serra Bookshop founder Ethel Souza. I n June 1982 a
l e t t e r went out t o sculptor E l i o Benvenuto, ceramic a r t i s t Mary Erckenbrack,
mosaicist Louisa Jenkins, a r c h i t e c t s Paul Ryan and Mario Ciampi, a r t i s t and
c r i t i c William Justema. Father Monihan, and painters Antonio Sotomayor and
Maria Luisa W o l f ~ k i l l ,i n v i t i n g them t o t e l l about t h e i r p a r t i n the
movement.
As the interviewing developed, the denominational scope of the project
expanded. W
e were looking now a t Unitarian, Jewish, Christian Science,
Episcopal, and other sources of commissions i n the religious a r t s . A
second round of i n v i t a t i o n s t o be interviewed went t o Mark Adams, an a r t i s t
i n tapestry and stained glass whose work is i n Catholic churches a s well a s
Temple Ernanu-El i n San Francisco; Charles Warren C a l l i s t e r , an a r c h i t e c t who
had worked with t h e congregations of San Francisco's Unitarian Church,
Belvedere and Mill Valley's Christian Science churches, and who designed the
chapel a t Mills College; and Stephen DeStaebler, ceramic a r t i s t , creator of
the powerful sanctuary pieces a t Newman Center i n Berkeley.
The subject was becoming more complex, and the resources richer. Out of
those interviews y e t another group was recommended, and the s t o r y of the
c o d s s i o n f o r the Greek Orthodox Church of the Ascension i n Oakland and i t s
dramatic i n t e r i o r is t o l d i n the interviews with B i l l Olwell and with
Lucienne and Stephen Dimitroff. The Cwmings Stained Glass Studio's
innovations i n stained glass and the studio's religious work were the subject
of an interview 'with Vivian and B i l l Cummings. Msgr. Robert Brennan,
biographer of a r t i s t Charlton Fortune, whose l i t u r g i c a l work i n Monterey i n
many ways inspired the Catholic A r t Forum, recorded what h e had learned
about t h a t e a r l i e r renaissance. Victor Ries, a metal a r t sculptor whose
work is known i n synagogues a s w e l l a s churches, was one of the l a s t
interviewees, y e t h i s connections with Father Monihan and Ninfa Valvo bring
the story around t o the beginnings. Former curator of paintings a t the M. H.
De Young Museum, Ninfa Valvo was not well enough t o be interviewed, but Ruth
Eis, a curator a t the Judah L. Magnes Museum and a painter, adds a f i n a l
thoughtful note on the question of whether a religious i d e n t i t y i s important
f o r an a r t i s t working i n a religious s e t t i n g .
The interviews b u i l t upon each other i n an exciting and a productive
way, and a r e presented largely chronologically. Each interview i n the
volumes has a b r i e f introduction, by the primary interviewer, explaining
the circumstances of the interview, and sketching the l a r g e r context of the
work of the interviewee. Interviewees submitted biographical data. Each of
o r a l h i s t o r i e s goes a ways beyond the immediate scope of the project,
and we have included v i s u a l material where possible, and extensive appendices.
As the project neared completion, the e d i t o r contacted Jane Dillenberger,
Emeritus Professor of Theology and the Visual A r t s a t the Graduate
Theological Union, Berkeley, who became our perfect audience, reading through
the massive f i n a l d r a f t t o get an understanding of the undertaking and t o
find a theme f o r her introduction t o the work.
Jane and John Dillenberger, h e Professor of H i s t o r i c a l Theology a t the
Graduate Theological Union, had i n 1977 done an exhibition, Perceptions of
the S p i r i t i n Tbentieth-Century American Art. The catalog of t h a t exhibition
includes an essay by John Dillenberger which may help the reader of the
volumes following t o put the material i n t o a l a r g e r context.
Choosing not t o i s o l a t e and discuss "religious a r t i s t s , " the spirit of
the Dillenbergerst t i t l e is from God o r nature, from any religious t r a d i t i o n ,
o r "unarticulated inner mystery."
I n the twentieth century...a r t i s t s no longer reflected religious
t r a d i t i o n s but created and expressed new s p i r i t u a l perceptions
which we a r e invited t o share. The sources f o r such perceptions
a r e many. In p a r t , they represent individual transformations
of residual religious t r a d i t i o n s ; they r e f l e c t a renewed
i n t e r e s t i n a l l t h a t has been encompassed by the word nature;
they express a continued and renewed i n t e r e s t i n the a r t , and
t o a l e s s e r degree, the religion of Eastern traditions....
Most of a l l , the sources seem t o well up fromwithin.. ..
Although h i s t o r i c religious t r a d i t i o n s do not figure
s i g n i f i c a n t l y a s e i t h e r source o r context f o r the v i s u a l a r t s ,
the new perceptions of the a r t i s t s provide an i n t e r e s t i n g
context f o r churches, should they be open t o u t i l i z i n g such
resources. There a r e of course indications t h a t they have,
a s i n the cases of Rothko, Lippold, Nevelson, and DeStaebler.. ..
W
e l i v e i n a time of new opportunity. The gamut has
been run from the domination of f a i t h , t o its material and
secular denial, t o new forms of perception, diverse and open t o
new forming constellations. While a l l a r t is not religious and
the museum is not its temple, the a r t i s t today represents,
t o use the words of the l a t e Paul T i l l i c h , a manifestation of
one form of the l a t e n t church. But such a recognition means
t h a t we do not expect the a r t i s t t o u t i l i z e the subject matter
and forms of the past, but r a t h e r t o represent the new forms
and perceptions which can become the source of transfiguration
and transformation. Indeed, t o use the old subject matter is
t o repeat the past i n a context i n which its power has been
l o s t ; t o remain true t o the past, we must now transcend i t ,
and be open t o forms strange t o the eye and ear. In order
t o s e e and t o hear the new p o s s i b i l i t i e s of f a i t h , we must be
as daring a s was the past, which was a l s o once new and strange,
awaiting new transfigured meanings.
Thus, the Renaissance of Religious A r t s and Architecture i n the San
Francisco Bay Area project i s a record of twenty-three individuals'
understanding of t h e i r own e f f o r t s t o "represent the new forms and perceptions
which can become the course of transfiguration and transformation."
It has been a pleasure t o work with Micaela DuCasse a s co-interviewer
and a s interviewee. The kind of a person she is shines through, and h e r
enthusiasm f o r the endeavors of the Catholic A r t Forum were h e a r t f e l t , a s
well as a r t i s t i c a l l y informed. I f the volumes become a well-worn t e x t f o r
students of theology and the v i s u a l a r t s we a r e indebted t o the l i v e l y
i n t e r e s t of Jane and John Dillenberger. W
e a l s o thank the Graduate
Theological Union reference l i b r a r i a n s f o r help i n checking names and facts.
And q u i t e beyond mere appreciation a r e the interviewees themselves, our
e s s e n t i a l point of reference.
The existence of the Flora Lamson Hewlett fund has made t h i s undertaking
possible. W
e believe t h a t i t appropriately honors the i n t e r e s t s of a woman
who was a generous supporter of a c t i v i t i e s of a religious, a r t i s t i c , and
educational nature.
The Regional Oral History Office was established t o tape record
autobiographical interviews with persons prominent i n recent California
history. The o f f i c e is under the direction of Willa K. Baum, division head,
and under the administrative supervision of James D. Hart, the d i r e c t o r of
The Bancroft Library.
Suzanne B. Riess
Senior EditorIInterviewer
1 February 1985
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California a t Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Father William J. Monihan
THE CATHOLIC A
R
T FORUM, ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL, AND AND& GIRARD
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1982 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of t h e University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- F a t h e r W i l l i a m J. Monihan
INTERVIEW HISTORY
CATHOLIC ART FORUM FORMATION
N i n f a V a l v o
E u r o p e a n D i r e c t i o n s o f R e l i g i o u s A r t
E f f i e F o r t u n e
ARTISTS EXHIBITED BY THE CATHOLIC ART FORUM
EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS OF THE FORUM
ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL
ST. ANN'S CHAPEL, PAL0 ALTO, AND AND& GIRARD
INTERVIEW HISTORY
The f i r s t gathering of a selected group of key professionals i n a l l
the phases of the visual a r t s , a t Gleeson Library, University of San
Francisco, i n 1953, was m
y f i r s t encounter with Father William J. Monihan.
That group became the Catholic A r t Forum. That meeting was f o r me the
beginning of a most rewarding friendship, flourishing t o t h i s day.
I know others have said i t of him, but i t i s so t r u e t h a t repetition
w i l l not d u l l the point: Father Monihan, a s then l i b r a r i a n of Gleeson
Library, i n h i s i n t e l l i g e n t and wide i n t e r e s t s , elevated t a s t e , and a b i l i t y
t o communicate culturally, i s indeed a "Renaissance Man." It was h i s
foresight and courage f o r t h a t time that inspired the founding of a group
t h a t would influence a r t f o r the Church i n the greater Bay Area i n a
deeply significant way.
The Gleeson Library f a c i l i t i e s were a perfect meeting place f o r the
Catholic A r t Forum. They provided not only a place f o r the board t o meet
and make i t s plans, but conference rooms f o r lectures and exhibitions t h a t
were t o become a v i t a l educational background f o r the f r u i t f u l meeting of
the a r t i s t and the Church. The Gleeson Library and the Junipero Serra
Shop complemented each other i n providing the milieu i n which the aims of
the Catholic A r t Forum could be projected and realized.
This inte'rview with Father Monihan, currently director of l i b r a r y
relations of the University of San Francisco, i s indeed a most important
one t o s t a r t off the o r a l history project. It provides the setting, along
with the interview with Ethel Souza of the Junipero Serra Shop, f o r the
renaissance of the l i t u r g i c a l a r t s i n the Bay Area from 1946 t o 1968.
Father Monihan continues t o be a champion and patron of contemporary l i t u r -
g i c a l a r t i n the greater Bay Area. The aims of t h e Catholic A r t Forum
remain a l i v e through h i s continuing i n t e r e s t and encouragement.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office
R
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m 486 The Bancroft Library
ii
University of California
Berkeley, California 94720
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THE CATHOLIC A
R
T FORUM, ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL, AND A N D R ~GIRARD
[Interview date: September 14, 19821
Catholic A r t Forum Formation
DuCasse: This interview is with Father William J. Monihan, Director of the
Library Relations a t the University of San Francisco. Father
Monihan was a founding member of the Catholic A r t Forum because of
h i s l i f e l o n g i n t e r e s t i n contemporary religious and l i t u r g i c a l a r t .
Father, w e were discussing when you f i r s t became aware of the
l i t u r g i c a l a r t movement i n general, t h e worldwide movement, and
whether i t was instrumental i n what was happening here. Did you
r e a l l y know much about i t before we became involved with i t i n San
Francisco?
Monihan: Well, I would say during the period following World War II,I was a .
reader of Liturgical A r t s [AQuarterly Devoted t o the A r t s of the
Catholic Church], and I was very much interested i n the l i t u r g i c a l
movement. That was on the forefront of the Church a t t h a t time, and
s o t h a t was i n m
y mind, with only a reading experience i n that regard.
But when it comes down t o t h e immediate years preceding the
formation of the Catholic A r t Forum i n 1953, I realized t h a t a f t e r
the Gleeson Library building was completed and dedicated i n Decem-
ber 1950 t h a t we needed some f i n e a r t s t o decorate the exterior of
t h e building. I ' m sure the i n t e r i o r too, but primarily there were
two spaces, 9% f e e t high by 6 f e e t wide, on both sides of the
entrance. I was introduced by someone t o Mark Adams, who had done
several r e l i g i o u s a r t pieces a t t h e small chapel a t Carmel [Daily
Mass Chapel a t Carmel Mission].
DuCasse: He did a s e r i e s of s t a t i o n s f o r them.
Monihan: Yes. So I guess by the ordinary course of meeting people I got t o
know you, Micaela, and Ruth Cravath. And a t t h a t time you and the
others were on the committee planning the religious a r t show a t the
de Young Museum which occurred between October and November of 1952.
Monihan : So, t o go back, the immediate occasion of m
y i n t e r e s t i n l i t u r g i c a l
a r t or r e l i g i o u s a r t was m
y d e s i r e t o get something t h a t would f i t
i n t o the new Gleeson Library building e x t e r i o r . You w e r e about
ready t o take a t r i p . i n 1952, was i t ?
DuCasse: Right, i n the summer of 1952.
Monihan : And you explored p o s s i b i l i t i e s for
t h e l i n e s of Ignatius Loyola.
me i n Spain and elsewhere along
But a s I watched a l l of you, getting t o know more and more of
you, going through t h e f i n a l preparations of the r e l i g i o u s a r t show
a t t h e de Young, I guess I heard many of you say t h a t , "This i s such
a marvelous experience, couldn't we do something about i t ? " I guess
by nature I ' m an organizer, so I said, "Well, why not come t o USF,
and l e t ' s work together?"
DuCasse: And a r t i s t s usually need an organizer!
Monihan : That's, I guess, m
y closest answer t o your question of how I became
involved. I was a learner, very much of a learner. I did not know
a t a l l about the a r t movement, and t h e whole experience of being
with you, the a r t i s t s , was a great source of education f o r me,
immense.
DuCasse : 	
That exhibit was a very valuable education f o r most of us. Many of
us d i d n ' t even know some of the other a r t i s t s t h a t participated;
t h a t brought us together.
You mentioned the L i t u r g i c a l ~ r t k
magazine. You had m e t
Maurice Lavanoux and he did come t o San Francisco several t i m e s ,
didn't he?
Monihan : 	
And he spoke t o us, didn't he?
DuCasse: 	 Right, he did. He was one of our l e c t u r e r s .
Monihan : 	
You see, a t t h a t t i m e the f i r s t f l o o r of Gleeson Library t o the l e f t
was a conference room. It's now a reserve book room and s p e c i a l
collections. So t h a t was t h e room t h a t we used f o r Catholic A r t
Forum. W
e called it a conference room.
I was surprised--you and I have discovered, by reading copy
i n f r o n t of u s here, t h a t we had quarterly meetings; t h a t ' s q u i t e a
b i t .
DuCasse: 	 W
e were j u s t charged with t h i s message t h a t we had, t h i s educational
idea t o bring t h e l a i t y i n t o t h e contemporary a r t world.
cd
M . H. D E Y O U N G
Golden Gate Park
2a
M E M O R I A L M U S E U M
San Francisco 18, CaLiornia
3
Exlubition
Architecture
o
! CONTEMPORARY RELIGIOUS ART by Calilornia Artists
Painting Sculpture Metal Criks Textiles Mosaics
EXHIBITION ' COMMITTEE :
Ruth Cravath,
Chairman
K s . Edwin L Jennings,
Secretary
An exhibition of Corrtemporarg Religious A
r
t by California
artists will. be held a t the H
. He de Young Memorial Musem
The Reverend George Benigsen for a period of about one month bednning October 16th. It
will consist of Architecture, Painting, Sculpture, Mosaics,
Norman K. Blanchard Metal Cmfts, Textiles, etc., of original design and s u i t
The Pught Reverend able for,
use i n the services or for the visual enricbment
Karl Morgan Block of churches and synagogues.
Mario J. Ciampi You are one of a selected group being asked to submit
works i n this categozy (as as three) to a j q of
The Fbght Reverend sefection wZlich w i l l meet a t the de Young Museum on
Monsignor Harold E. Collins September 20th. Your entries should arrive a t the .
Museum not later than September 16th. Shipping instruc-
Michaela Martinet Ducasce tions u i l l be sent out a t a later date.
. .
Revmend E. C- Transpmtation end insmanee costs are to be borne by the
Rabbi Alvin I. Fine artist. Works accepted by the jtlrg Kill be insured by
the museum and returned to the artist prepaid.
Louisa JenIuns
If glossg prints of phobgraphs (preferably 8 x 10) of
Peter Macchiarini your subsnissions are available, please send them t o the
Camittee for possible publicakL& i n connection with
The Reverend L o T. Maher publid* c a w g e
Dr. Elisabeth Moses W
e trust that you will participate in our enterprise and
Antonio S O ~ O - ~ O ~ we would appreciate hearing fran you a t pow earliest
convenience.
N d a Valvo
Yours t
x
*
,
&=== ,
Mrs. IkMn Le Jemhgs,
Secretsrg -Ekhibition Canrmittee
EXECUTIVE OFFICE: 716 Montgomery Street, Studio 3, San Francisco, CaliLrnia Yukon 2-3689
Monihan: And especially the clergy.
DuCasse: Yes, the clergy too, of course, the religious. Very definitely.
N
o
w we spoke about the A r t Forum and I think we should give
something of i t s aim. Don't we have t h a t here i n our brochure?
[ r e f e r s t o papers i n f r o n t of them]
Monihan: I'll read t h i s aim and maybe you could read the other one. I guess
t h i s i s one of our f i r s t brochures. The aim was a s follows: "The
aims of the Catholic A r t Forum a r e t o f o s t e r a greater i n t e r e s t i n
and appreciation of religious a r t of a l i v i n g , Catholic t r a d i t i o n
with p a r t i c u l a r emphasis on the contemporary form.
"The Forum is composed of a r t i s t s , a r t educators, and others
interested i n the problems of church a r t and desirous of carrying
on the work begun i n our area by the large exhibit of religious a r t
held a t t h e de Young Museum i n the F a l l of 1952. Since i t s organi-
zation i n 1953 the Forum has held quarterly meetings. Included i n
the list of speakers on these occasions a r e the following: Reverend
Terrence R. OIConnor, S.J., Louisa Jenkins, and Alfred Frankenstein."
Ninfa Valvo
Monihan: W
h
y don't you read t h a t one, Kai?
DuCasse: Y e s , I think t h i s one gives a l i t t l e b i t more.
"The Catholic A r t Forum i s composed of a r t i s t s and a r t
educators interested i n t h e problems of church a r t and desirous
of carrying on the work begun i n our area by the l a r g e exhibit of
l i t u r g i c a l a r t held a t t h e de Young Museum l a s t October. C r i t i c s
and gallery v i s i t o r s a l i k e acclaimed t h i s manifestation of a v i t a l
religious a r t . "
Ninfa Valvo, who was the curator of paintings, was a l s o the
designer of t h a t exhibit, the person who was i n charge of getting
it together. And you made a very important point before we were
talking on tape about her using l o c a l a r t i s t s primarily. Would you
l i k e t o comment a l i t t l e more on that? Because you made a wonderful
point about that.
Monihan: One of t h e many great achievements t h a t Ninfa Valvo should be hailed
f o r was the exhibit t h a t she did of a r t i s t s of t h i s area. Never
before had a r t i s t s of t h i s area received such public a t t e n t i o n a s
her exhibition accomplished. D r . Walter Heil, the d i r e c t o r of the
Monihan: museum, was high i n p r a i s e of i t . Alfred Frankenstein, i n reviews,
was high i n praise of it. And f o r the same reason, a s recently as
two years ago M i s s Valvo received an honorary degree from the A r t
I n s t i t u t e of San Francisco. They gave her an honorary degree, and
I w a s present f o r t h a t , and t h e whole reason f o r the degree was
what she did f o r t h e l o c a l a r t i s t s .
I said t o you, Kai, a t lunchtime, before t h i s interview, t h a t
i t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g t o m
e t h a t what Ninfa did f o r t h e l o c a l a r t i s t s we
were a l s o doing on a smaller c i r c l e on the religious side; we
a l s o wanted t o emphasize l o c a l artists. Because many of t h e church
men, Catholic and Protestant and maybe even Jewish, were using
a r t i s t s overseas t o decorate t h e i r churches.
W
e wanted, following the leadership of Ninfa Valvo, t o bring
i n artists of our area. This would be metal craftsmen f o r chalices,
-
t h i s would be stone sculpture, t h a t would mean vestment makers, t h a t
would mean canvas painting, everything t h a t would contribute t o that.
You a l s o mentioned t h a t Archbishop McGucken, i n an interview
with the Catholic A r t Forum, listened very positively t o our plea
t h a t l o c a l artists be considered.
DuCasse: Y e s , f o r the cathedral, which was
wasn't i t ?
then j u s t i n the planning stage,
Monihan: For the cathedral a s well a s j u s t i n general t o approve what h i s
own clergy would be doing i n t h e i r parishes, t o encourage the l o c a l
a r t i s t s .
DuCasse: Y e s , t h i s was a r e a l l y high point of the Catholic A r t Forum's l i f e
span, being able t o bring the Archbishop t o t h e Forum and allowing
the Forum t o meet him on a very friendly basis. A s you said, a
"non-threatening" basis, where we could have a meeting of minds and
of t a s t e and of ideas. That was one of the most important things I
think t h a t we did, r e a l l y , when you think about it.
European Directions of Religious A r t
Monihan: W
e who were i n it didn't realize--we wanted t o do s o much--we didn't
f e e l we were accomplishing anything, but i n retrospect I think
there was an impact. But t h e fascinating thing about t h i s , mi, i s
t h a t what we were doing was almost an expression of the t i m e . What
was happening here was happening elsewhere i n the world, i n Europe,
i n France, i n England, and other places, and other p a r t s of the
United States, a s i n Boston. There was the same response t o the
need, and so it was a very fascinating experience.
Monihan: W
e looked t o "LIArt Sacre" and Father [Perel Couturier, O.P., f o r
t h a t great dialogue heencouragedwith the non-Christian or, i n
t h i s case, Communist o r a t h e i s t , whether they could do religious
a r t . A l l of which seems t o show t h a t Father Couturier's direction
was correct when you read Vatican 11's document on liturgy.
DuCasse: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I had the honor of meeting Pere
Rggamey , O.P., i n P a r i s i n 1952 when I was over there because Pr're
Couturier was very ill and was not seeing anyone. Of course,
Rggamey wrote t h a t book on the l i t u r g y and l i t u r g i c a l a r t and so
f o r t h also. [Religious A r t i n the Twentieth Century, Herder and
Herder, 19631 So t h a t was a very inspiring person t o meet, and j u s t
a s you said, t h a t powerful movement t h a t was i n France.
Monihan: And Germany too, following the growing sense of community during
the early 1 9 3 0 ~ ~
was a leader i n l i t u r g i c a l a r t . W
e witnessed
what Father Joseph Jungmann did i n Austria, being t h e leader i n
the research on t h e l i t u r g i c a l movement; then coming i n t o t h i s
country through Collegeville, Minnesota, and Father Reinhold and
other great names i n t h i s country.
And now we have the Vatican I1 doctrine on l i t u r g y which showed
where the :Church ultimately wanted, and did go. So we were happily
on t h e forefront of participants i n the movement.
DuCasse: Europe gets the trends much quicker than we do; they already had
been saturated with the contemporary form so they were able t o
adapt t o it quicker than we were. It took u s a l o t longer, didn't
i t ?
Monihan: There's another phenomenon--I'm sure, Kai, you have i t on tape from
other sources. The Junipero Serra Shop, the religious art shop i n
Maiden Lane, I think played a very important r o l e because i t gave
u s an exhibition place, it gave us a . p l a c e t o see contemporary a r t
on s a l e , inexpensive t o very expensive. So there was a l o t of
opportunity i n those days, and they played a very important role.
DuCasse: Oh, they did indeed. And of course i n the A r t Forum a l s o because
Ethel Souza was one of the founding members of A r t Forum. And then
they a l s o had l e c t u r e s there. So I think we had a nice meshing of
the Catholic c u l t u r a l world and the religious a r t world also. I
think t h e i r being here i n San Francisco was a very, very important
p a r t of the renaissance of l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n t h i s area. Very
definitely.
E f f i e Fortune
DuCasse: This is s o r t of skipping back, but one thing I didn't want t o forget
t o ask you, did you ever know Father Meehan a t a l l well?
Monihan: No. I think you did and several others because you were on t h e
committee f o r the de Young show with him. I met him, and I remember
l i t u r g i c a l vestments a s one of h i s s p e c i a l t i e s , but I r e a l l y had
very l i t t l e t o do with him.
DuCasse: Really he, and E f f i e Fortune, of course, you knew--
Monihan: E f f i e Fortune! Yes! Effie was a very important person.
DuCasse: She and Father Meehan r e a l l y were t h e i n s t i g a t o r s of l i t u r g i c a l a r t
i n t h i s area way back i n the t h i r t i e s .
Monihan: 1930s?
DuCasse: T h i r t i e s , very d e f i n i t e l y . A t ' l e a s t the t h i r t i e s . I f not l a t e
twenties. And t h i s i s something which had been d i f f i c u l t because
we cannot get them, they're gone. So anything t h a t you may remember,
especially about Charlton Fortune, would be very good t o get i n t o
our record.
Monihan:
.
A l l t h a t I remember--I gave a r e t r e a t i n Los Angeles a t the Convent
of the S i s t e r s of Social Service, and i n t h i s chapel the a l t a r was
i n a c e n t r a l position r a t h e r than along one wall; i t was e n t i r e l y
designed by E f f i e Fortune. Because of being there, I inquired
about i t , I learned more about i t . I met E f f i e Fortune i n t h e very
early years of the Forum. I believe she must have even spoken t o
us. Very dedicated, and t o me the important thing i s when any
of these new movements a r e going on, there can be a big temptation
t o become impatient and t o get angry o r frustrated. But she was
a great example of a person being patient.
She would be very e x p l i c i t i n what she thought of the opinions
[laughter] of c e r t a i n clergy o r l a i t y !
DuCasse: True.
Monihan: I remember ,one fellow J e s u i t called her a -
misfortune! [laughter]
DuCasse: Well, she could be very sharp-tongued at times, but i t was a very
forthright kind of thing. It was not a malicious thing, it was
j u s t because she knew t h a t she w a s right. And she wanted them t o
get the message, and i t wasn't always easy t o put i t across.
Monihan :
DuCasse:
Monihan : 

DuCasse: 

Monihan:
DuCasse: *
Monihan : 

DuCasse: 

Monihan : 

Well, being a l i b r a r i a n , I would encourage anyone who reads t h i s
record of our interview t o pursue any archive of t h i s Charlton
Fortune, called E f f i e Fortune.
I remember a former Archbishop of Portland who collected
Miss Fortune's work. H i s name escapes me now. [Mon. Brennan]
H e purchased a l o t of her paintings and he may a l s o have acquired
her e n t i r e f i l e . So t h i s could be somewhere i n the e s t a t e of t h i s
wonderful archbishop. Wherever those paintings are, wherever the
archive is--I have a hunch t h a t when she died he acquired her
archive. But t h a t is a very important chapter i n t h i s whole move-
ment of which Catholic A r t Forum was only a part.
True. And I think t h a t maybe E f f i e was almost more important than
Father Meehan because she went out from California, as you know.
She was a t Portsmouth Priory f o r awhile, she was i n Kansas City, and
she was up i n the Northwest. E f f i e did not remain j u s t i n t h e
Monterey Guild i n Monterey or even i n San Francisco. She took her
message a s f a r a f i e l d a s anyone would give her the opportunity.
Didn't she know your family?
Yes, because she was one of the early California a r t i s t s before
she became a l i t u r g i c a l a r t i s t . I did meet her, i n the early
t h i r t i e s , when I was beginning my career i n l i t u r g i c a l a r t . M
y
mother took me t o meet her because a t t h a t time she had t h e
Monterey Guild. But .she did not have many commissions f o r painters
because she herself was a painter; the l i t t l e t h a t came i n she
usually did. So I never was a p a r t of t h a t , but I did know her
and she knew about m
e and she was certainly a very important person
t o know.
Well, t h i s Social Service S i s t e r s Chapel i n Los Angeles w a s designed
by her.
A s we were saying, coming from lunch, language and design change
according t o the t a s t e of each decade.
Very true. No one is immune from that! Even Leonardo and Michel-
angelo very often had something new put over what they had done.
Has someone done an interview of you?
That 's coming, yes.
Because there a r e many people t h a t a r e beginning t o come i n t o my
mind r i g h t now i n the Carmel/Monterey area that you knew as a child,
a s a young person, and your mother and f a t h e r knew, and--was i t
your aunt? I
DuCasse: 	 Yes.
Monihan: 	 Your aunt who lived with you. I ' m thinking of Sullivan, Noel
Sullivan. N
o
w he was not a primary, but he was certainly an
important patron of the a r t s .
DuCasse: 	 Oh d e f i n i t e l y , d e f i n i t e l y he was. And, of course,
mission restoration with Harry Downie and s o forth.
w i l l a l l be covered eventually. Very definitely.
A r t i s t s Exhibited by t h e Catholic A r t Forum
the whole
Oh yes, t h a t
DuCasse: 	 W
e might t r y t o review some of the a r t i s t s t h a t you remember who
were p a r t of t h e movement, and of course were exhibited by the
Catholic A r t Forum, and about t h a t program of traveling exhibits
throughout t h e greater Bay Area, t h a t is, a s f a r a s Santa Rosa and
Stockton.
Monihan : Among t h e papers here [looking through papers] we had an insurance
l i s t which i s a p r e t t y good indication of-here i t is. N
o
w you
probably know more of these names than I do. Do you know t h a t
f i r s t name, Franz Vanderbruck?
DuCasse: No, I don't.
Of course I knew Victor Ries, who was also--see t h i s man i s a
silversmith. But w e know Victor Ries and he i s very well known i n
t h e area. We'll have t o t r y t o find out something about him.
Margaret Bruton, we know her.
Monihan : I don't know her.
DuCasse: She i s one of the Monterey a r t i s t s . She and her two s i s t e r s often
did work together. They were mosaicists and they've done many
d i f f e r e n t kinds of mural work. So there we are; we're getting
ecumenical r i g h t now because the Brutons were not Catholics. Irene
Bryner [again r e f e r r i n g t o l i s t i n f r o n t of them], I ' m not familiar
with her.
Monihan: 	 I ' m not either.
DuCasse: 	 N
o
w the Hanna Center photographs must have been Ruth Cravathts work.
Monihan : 	
Ah!
DuCasse: 	 Remember she did the beautiful f a ~ a d e .
Monihan: W
e had a program t o v i s i t Hanna Center.
DuCasse: Right, we did. And then she did the s t a t i o n s of t h e
c r u c i f i x over t h e a l t a r . Of course E l i o Benvenuto
t o l i s t ] .
c r o s s and t h e
[ r e f e r r i n g again
Monihan: Yes. He did a l o t of things, and h e r e we're lookin
t o read a l i s t of h i s : Lazarus, wood sculpture, St.
figure.
g a t two things,
John, a bronze
DuCasse: Right. And he w i l l b e interviewed eventually too.
Monihan: And Ruth Armer.
DuCasse: Now t h e r e ' s another ecumenical person, you see. 

Monihan: You knew h e r , d i d n ' t you? 

DuCasse: Yes. Ruth was a very f i n e painter. Dirk Van Erp, again l i k e 

Victor Ries. Dirk Van Erp was more, I would say, more of t h e
t r a d i t i o n a l i s t worker i n s i l v e r .
Monihan : Yes.
DuCasse: And I b e l i e v e t h a t Father Meehan worked with Dirk Van Erp a t one
point, designed with him.
Monihan: And Mary Erckenbrack [ s t i l l r e f e r r i n g t o l i s t ] .
DuCasse: She i s a--I t h i n k Mary i s a Catholic. She's always been connected
with t h e Church, s o I think she must be.
Monihan: And Louisa Jenkins i s mentioned.
DuCasse: 	 Naturally, yes. There we have one of h e r madonnas. And Sargent
Johnson, t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g , because he was a black artist, and n o t
a Catholic, again ecumenical, but chosen. A l l these o t h e r artists
were chosen because of t h e f i n e work they did, whether they were
r e l i g i o u s o r not.
Monihan : 	
Luke Gibney .
DuCasse: 	 .Luke Gibney. Now he was well known i n t h e area, Luke was.
Monihan: 	 I commissioned him s h o r t l y a f t e r t h i s time t o do a p o r t r a i t of a
J e s u i t who died i n 1916 at Santa Barbara, Fr. Maurice Joy. Jean
Leslie, do you know her?
DuCasse: Yes, I did know her, and I believe she was an Anglican Catholic.
Monihan: Well, Mario Ciampi, we a r e very close friends, very active.
DuCasse: Oh, d e f i n i t e l y . One of our founding members.
Monihan: Maybe actually a member of the board f o r awhile.
DuCasse: Oh yes, he was.
Monihan: And we had a v i s i t t o h i s Corpus C h r i s t i Church here i n San
Francisco. Remember that?
DuCasse: 	 Oh, d e f i n i t e l y , I do. And he conducted i t himself. He w i l l be
interviewed, so we w i l l get h i s information.
Monihan : 	
Del Lederle.
DuCasse: 	 Del Lederle, of course, was one of the best artists a t the Junipero
Serra Shop. He was a patron, and they had h i s work. H i s work was
very beautiful because it was contemporary but i t was r e f l e c t i v e
of the Byzantine period. Del, alack and a l a s , i s no longer with
us. PeterMacchiarini,he was a very good craftsman. He did a l s o
the tabernacle s e t s of wrought-iron candlesticks. P h i l P r a t t is
another metalworker. It's i n t e r e s t i n g t o see [ s t i l l r e f e r r i n g t o
l i s t ] the number of metal workers we had i n t h i s one exhibit. And
then of course Victor Ries is so very w e l l known.
Monihan: 	 And Marie Strawn.
DuCasse: 	 Marie Strawn. The name is familiar t o me, but I cannot place her.
Four s t a t i o n s of the cross, huh, t h a t ' s interesting. [referring
t o l i s t ] But t h a t does g i v e u s an idea of some of the artists t h a t
were participating with us, a s well as our founding members.
Monihan: 	 The artist-founders-it might be good t o read t h i s i n t o the tape.
DuCasse: 	 Very d e f i n i t e l y .
Monihan: 	 So, among the artist-founders, the California a r t i s t s , were E l i o
Benvenuto, Mario Ciampi, Peggy Conahan, Ruth Cravath, and you,
Michaela Martinez DuCasse, June Foster Hass, Louisa Jenkins, Del
Lederle, and Antonio Sotomayor. Those were the a r t i s t s and--
founding members. It's very important t h a t we have these.
And I might mention t h a t a t l e a s t a t h i r d of these a r e not
Roman Catholic. And t h a t was an important aspect of our work,
because we were not interested i n a s t r i c t l y parochial presentation.
Educational Programs of the Forum
DuCasse: That reminded me, when you j u s t brought f o r t h t h a t announcement,
of some of the important people t h a t we had on our programs, our
Catholic A r t Forum programs, t o show how much of an educational
t h r u s t we had. W
e r e a l l y got some amazing people t o come and
t a l k t o us.
Monihan: Some of them were international and some of them were local.
Father Hofinger, S.J., f o r instance, was an Austrian working i n
the Philippines who lectured here frequently during t h e 1950s.
W
e presented Father Hofinger i n April 1956 on "What Is Liturgical
Renewal? "
DuCasse: He was one of the most distinguished a t the time.
Monihan: He was. One of the f i r s t i n the s e r i e s of lectures was Father
Terrence O'Connor's, e n t i t l e d "The Visual A r t s and t h e Teaching
Church.'' That was i n February of 1954. So t h a t was within a
year of the founding.
DuCasse: Truly. And t h i s was eventually put i n t o a monograph, wasn't i t ?
Monihan: Yes. It was published i n Theological Studies i n September of 1954.
DuCasse: Do you have an e x t r a copy t h a t could be kept with the record of
these things a t the library? A t The Bancroft?
Monihan: Yes, you could have that.
But you remember who did t h i s , don't you? [ i . e . t h e i l l u s t r a -
t i o n of Christ the Teacher by Mary F a b i l l i printed i n the keepsake
program f o r Fr. O'Connor's t a l k ] Mary F a b i l l i .
DuCasse: Yes, Mary F a b i l l i .
on the board, but--
Yes, she was one of our a r t i s t s . She was never
Monihan: W
e have remained friends f o r years, and I s t i l l hear from her.
DuCasse: Yes. These friendships we made a t t h a t time have been lifelong.
Oh, and we have t h i s . [ r e f e r s t o paper i n f r o n t of them]
This i s i n t e r e s t i n g , t h i s t h a t we were looking over before. This
was a s e r i e s , wasn't i t ?
Monihan : Yes, I would guess about 1954. Miss Ethel Souza i n July, a dis-
cussion on "The Purpose of Religious A r t . " Del Lederle, "The
Common Sources of Contemporary Religious Art." Yourself, Micaela,
on "The Movement Abroad." And Miss Stephanie Alioto [Wilhelm] on
"The Local Expression." And you said t h a t w a s a walking commentary
on t h e exhibition. And then a panel of Father Meehan, S i s t e r Mary
Antoinette, and Elio Benvenuto.
DuCass e: Oh, now t h a t ' s good t o see--that
brought i n t o t h i s .
shows t h a t Father Meehan was
Monihan : Then on the 25th of
busy, weren't we?
July we had a f i e l d t r i p . M
y golly, we were
DuCass e: W
e c e r t a i n l y were.
Monihan : A f i e l d t r i p t o Hanna Center t o see Ruth Cravath's work there.
DuCasse: And then we organized the .traveling exhibits which went t o Santa
Rosa and t o d i f f e r e n t Catholic i n s t i t u t i o n s i n the greater Bay
Area.
Monihan : 	
Yes. [looks through papers] This seems t o be something about
Louisa's work. "Christian A r t Exhibit a t Newman [Hall],"1955.
I think i t might be worth i t f o r m e t o read t h i s . This i s a
notice from t h e Newman Club a t UC Berkeley; the May issue of 1955,
Volume 19, Number 2, pages 4 and 5, has a feature on the Catholic
A r t Forum. Its introductory words a r e these: "With the intention
of creating a greater understanding of contemporary religious a r t ,
which i s seeking t o develop its own s t y l e and idiom, the Academic
Committee and Publicity Committee has planned t h i s semester1'--
t h i s must be the committee of the Newman Club--"has planned t h i s
semester a religious art show t o be held from May 27 through
June 12 i n the Lounge and Library of Newman Hall. It i s with the
greatest pleasure t h a t the Committee announce a t t h i s time the
securing of the Catholic A r t Forum's traveling exhibition as the
f o c a l point of t h i s religious a r t show."
DuCasse: 	 Oh, t h a t ' s good t o know. Y e s , i t ' s bringing it a l l back now, seeing
these notices. And i t seems t o me t h a t we had some connection,
some exhibition with the Lutherans over i n San Leandro? Hayward?
Monihan : 	
I don 't remember.
Do you remember the name of S i s t e r Jean Darcy?
DuCasse: 	 Darcy, O.P., yes. She was well known f o r her beautiful black and
white silhouettes. Yes, she was a good a r t i s t of t h a t period.
Monihan: I have some other names here t h a t we had insurance for.
DuCasse: N
o
w there's one where June [Foster Hass] has something i n it.
Elah Hale Hays, "My Peace I Give unto You," t h i s was the piece
t h a t we discussed b r i e f l y before we went on tape. It was a magnifi-
cent contemporary:.work i n s t a i n l e s s s t e e l , and, remember, i t was
not allowed t o be shown i n the religious a r t exhibit because i t was
considered made from i n f e r i o r material.
This i s an indication of one of the reasons we f e l t t h e r e was
a need f o r t h e education of the l a i t y and the religious people
because there was nothing wrong with a beautiful piece of s t e e l ,
i n f ac-t, it 's a very beautiful material. But t h a t shows how l i t t l e
was known o r realized of our contemporary materials, t h a t some of
them were perfectly beautiful and no reason why they couldn't have
been used. So t h a t ' s interesting. I ' m glad we were able t o show
it i n our traveling show.
.
Monihan: You a r e l i s t e d here as having three pieces,
cross, Descent of the Holy S p i r i t .
two s t a t i o n s of the
Emi Luptak is another woman.
DuCasse: She's up i n Fairfield. And Dorothy Cravath, she was Ruth Cravath's
sister-in-law, and she died some years ago. Frances Moyer did
those magnificent s t a t i o n s i n welded metal, and we always had hoped
t h a t we could find a church t h a t would accept them and never did.
She s t i l l has them. She's now a resident of Mendocino. Monica
Hannash, she's an international person. She was one of the
Junipero Serra Shop a r t i s t s .
Monihan: Do you remember t h a t name, Otto Spaeth?
DuCasse: Oh yes. Otto Spaeth, he and h i s wife were Catholic patrons of a r t
i n New York, did a great deal f o r the Catholic magazine Liturgical
A r t s , and they a l s o established funds f o r a r t and were very helpful
i n the East.
Monihan: Well, do we have any other topics to go through, Kai?
St. Mary's Cathedral
DuCasse: Let's see what we have here now [going through papers]. We've
covered the a r t i s t s that you've known personally. You said some-
thing very interesting, I thought, about the significance of our
cathedral, of the building of our cathedral here i n San Francisco
i n i t s time.
Monihan: 	 The Catholic A r t Forum was interested i n any new church building
being planned i n the Bay Area. Mario Ciampi, San Francisco
a r c h i t e c t , became active i n the a f f a i r s of the Forum. He was a
member of our forum i n a very a c t i v e way.
A t the end of the f i f t i e s [1960], we had the St. Mary's
Cathedral f i r e . The cathedral on Van Ness Avenue was destroyed.
It took about three years of fundraising t o get the money together
t o build a new cathedral.
Paul Ryan, the a r c h i t e c t f o r the new cathedral, was well
respected and had planned many churches. When h i s designs were
presented they were considered t o be exploring, you might say,
with a thought t h a t other participation should be brought i n t o
open up the plans f o r the cathedral.
Archbishop McGucken was the archbishop a t t h a t time, and
though i t i s not correct t o say t h a t the Catholic A r t Forum had
any d i r e c t intervention o r contribution t o make t o the arch-
bishop a t t h a t time, I can record, without exaggeration, t h a t
Father Terrence O'Connor, the J e s u i t , had a l o t of influence on
t h e archbishop. He conversed with him about the plans, a s
developed by Paul Ryan, saying t h a t , "Whatever you do, Your
Excellency, t h i s i s going t o be a l a s t i n g thing. And think of
your other options; do not l i m i t i t t o the f i r s t d r a f t t h a t you
have i n f r o n t of you."
Apparently Father O'Connor opened other points of view i n the
archbishop's mind, and t h a t is when he brought i n [Pier Luigi]
Nervi from I t a l y , and another man who'd done work i n the Northwest
and East Coast with a Polish name. [Pietro Belluschi] So these
two a r c h i t e c t s were brought i n a s consultants t o Paul Ryan. So
i t changed the direction of the design i n t o what we s e e now a s
the f i n a l form of St. Mary's Cathedral.
DuCasse: 	 That was providential of Father O'Connor because he was so
knowledgeable i n a r t , contemporary a s well a s h i s t o r i c , and it
needed someone l i k e t h a t probably t o remind them t h a t t h i s was a
great opportunity i n the twentieth century.
Monihan: 	 There was nothing about Father O'Connor t h a t was not reasonable.
He was so knowledgeable about the history of the Church, the
history of architecture, t h a t he said t h a t t h i s i s going t o be a
v i s u a l presentation of the Church's statement or word i n a visual
sense. So i t got through, and, a s I say, I r e a l l y believe t h a t
Father O'Connor is t o be credited with that.
Monihan: 	 I think t h a t as someone goes i n t o the history o r planning of St.
Mary's Cathedral they may discover t h a t Father O'Connor had a
minor, i n s i g n i f i c a n t . r o l e , but from where I was a t the time I
thought he had q u i t e a significant r o l e because of h i s diplomatic,
very gentle way of explaining things without threatening the arch-
bishop, j u s t t o say, "we j u s t hope you w i l l keep an open mind,
t h a t you'll be successful i n achieving what you want t o achieve."
And so i t happened.
DuCasse: 	 It c e r t a i n l y did. And we certainly can be proud of t h a t building;
we're very lucky t o have it.
Monihan : 	
Y e s .
DuCasse: Incidentally, before we leave Father O'Connor,
h i s own r i g h t , is he not?
he i s an a r t i s t i n
Monihan: Yes, yes.
DuCasse: I remember he exhibited. For one of our A r t Forum shows we had a
booth i n t h e San Francisco A r t Festival when i t was held over i n
Washington Square i n f r o n t of S t . Peter & St. Paul's Church. It
was an outdoor thing, of course, and a t night--what could you do,
you couldn't lock things up too well--unfortunately Father's piece
was stolen. H e was wonderful about i t , of course. He said, "Well,
you know!'--and we were insured, but t h a t was j u s t one of those
strange things t h a t happened. I ' l l never forget t h a t exhibit
because of t h a t !
Monihan: 	 Father O'Connor's t a l k t o t h e Catholic A r t Forum i n 1954 was a t
"The f i r s t quarterly meeting of 1954."
DuCasse: 	 Probably t h a t was the f i r s t complete sequence of a year i n the
l i f e of t h e Forum. Our meetings p r i o r t o t h a t probably were
board meetings of executive work, so t h a t t h a t probably was
r e a l l y the beginning of our public exposure.
Monihan: 	 Victor R i e s was an a r t i s t who played an important role. Correct
m
e i f I ' m wrong. H e was educated i n Germany and went t o I s r a e l .
DuCasse: 	 Very true.
Monihan: 	 And then he came t o t h e United States. But, a s I remember, he
had a very active r o l e i n the de Young Museum show.
DuCasse: 	 He did. And what was a l s o interesting, Father, was when you were
speaking of the ecumenical s i d e of that. He was a Jewish a r t i s t
and he did some very beautiful things f o r Temple Emanu-El here i n
San Francisco. He did the menorah, and I had the privilege of
DuCasse: talking about t h a t on one of the T
V s t a t i o n s . I think i t was t o do
with the r e l i g i o u s a r t exhibit i n 1952, where we showed examples
of work from d i f f e r e n t religious ideas. W
e had the Catholic and
the non-Catholic and then, of course, the Jewish. He did a very
beautiful thing.
Monihan: Well, d i d n ' t Victor Ries have h i s own one-man show l a t e r on?
DuCasse: 	 Oh yes, yes, he did, and I think he had a show with us and I
believe he even talked t o us a t one point.
Monihan: 	 Because it was a t one of h i s one-man shows t h a t he had a very
d e l i c a t e way of giving me a g i f t . W
e went i n t o the exhibition
and we stopped a t one case and read the l a b e l , "On loan from
Father Monihan." That was the way he gave i t t o me.
DuCasse: 	 H
o
w delightful. What a beautiful way t o put it.
Monihan: 	 A holy water font f o r my office.
DuCasse: 	 For your office. I s n ' t t h a t lovely? He was a very i n t e r e s t i n g
man. I remember him. I remember h i s character and s o forth. He
was a person you wouldn't forget.
Monihan : 	
Yes.
DuCasse: 	 W
e were lucky t o have had so many i n t e r e s t i n g , v i t a l people among
the a r t i s t s . Roger Bolomey I remember a s a very i n t e r e s t i n g
person. I think he was originally from Switzerland o r from some
p a r t of t h a t area. H e did very unusual paintings, a curious
combination of mixed media and they looked almost l i k e they were
enamels.
St. Ann's 	 Chapel, Palo Alto and Andrd Girard
Monihan: 	 Kai, I would suggest t h a t we move from here t o the Rare Book Room,
and it could be--I don't want t o take too much of your time--that
you might find something t h a t would give us something t o put on
tape.
DuCasse: 	 That would be splendid. L e t ' s do t h a t , by a l l means. So we w i l l
stop momentarily u n t i l we can s e t ourselves up i n the Rare Book
Room. [brief tape interruption]
DuCasse: W
e a r e now i n t h e Rare Book Room a t Gleeson Library, University of
San Francisco, and we w i l l continue a l i t t l e further. I have
asked Father t o speak a l i t t l e b i t about Andrd Girard, who did
the windows and t h e s t a t i o n s a t St. Ann's Chapel i n Palo Alto.
Monihan: Yes, t h a t was i n the mid-1950s. I was showing you, Kai, some
correspondence t h a t the Gleeson Library now has i n the Rare Book
Room from Andr4 Girard t o m
e showing various stages of h i s work.
I met him a t Palo Alto a t St. Ann's Chapel with W i l l Ready from
Stanford Library, and admired h i s work very much. A s f a r a s I
know t h e Catholic A r t Forum never involved him i n any program I
know of, although I think we probably had a visit t o St. Ann's
Chapel, because Louisa Jenkins's work was there, and Andre
Girard's s t a t i o n s of the cross. W
e had a v i s i t t o St. Ann's
Chapel and we had a t a l k there about the stations. Incidentally,
sketches--that f s , painting on glass but a s sketches--for the
f i n a l job were given t o m
e f o r Gleeson Library. And we framed
them on permanent exhibition on the fourth floor of t h i s building.
DuCasse: Wonderful. Where they
s o we can see through?
a r e against the window, is t h a t not so,
Monihan: Against the window. But then the paint faded because t h e exposure
t o the sun was constant. I mentioned t o ~ n d r 6
on visits t o Nyack,
New York, t h a t they were fading. He said, "Well, I'll come out
and repaint them again f o r you. l'
DuCasse: How marvelous! [laughter]
Monihan: But he never did. I f e e l t h a t he did not anticipate t h a t the
medium was not permanent, because with the passage of time the
colors faded and some of the pigments chipped off.
DuCasse: And some colors a r e more fugitive also. I f I remember r i g h t l y ,
was t h a t not a technique which he himself had invented, s o t o
speak?
Monihan: Y e s . And he thought the medium wasgoing t o l a s t forever.
Well, he was mistaken, but he went i n t o other mediums such a s
painting on film. Have you heard of that?
DuCasse: The only thing I know is t h a t they do it a t Disney, so i t must
be a p o s s i b i l i t y , but maybe he explored i t i n a d i f f e r e n t way.
Monihan: Well, he used t h i s medium i n a s e r i e s f o r CBSTelevision called
"Lamp Unto M
y .Feet. " I was invited, i n one v i s i t t o New York,
t o go t o CBS studios and see t h a t presentation. It had been a
Sunday morning presentation. It was painting i n color on film.
DuCasse: 	 H
o
w fascinating. I know he was very-I don't know whether the 

word obsessed i s a l i t t l e b i t too strong--he was s o concerned 

with h i s media because he f e l t t h a t i t was s o appropriate, such a 

d i r e c t way of using a r t i n t h e Church. I think one thing t h a t 

they very r a r e l y remember, i n California especially, is our l i g h t ; 

not j u s t our sunlight, but our l i g h t i s so strong t h a t i t can fade 

many things t h a t a r e not supposed t o be faded. I've worked with 

acrylics, and even acrylics exposed t o l i g h t and sun w i l l fade i n 

time. I don't think we have anything t h a t permanent. I don't 

know whether he had ever used t h i s i n France before he used i t 

i n New York. 

Monihan: 	 I don't know.
DuCasse: 	 Because there he might have had i t i n a s i t u a t i o n t h a t the l i g h t
was j u s t not a s strong. Although the Mediterranean l i g h t i s
almost a s strong a s California l i g h t .
Monihan: 	 Well, I j u s t know t h a t Paris, which w a s h i s home, is a further
northern l a t i t u d e than California.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t , and t h e sun i s -
not as strong there. I think
we have the v i o l e t rays more strongly i n our western hemisphere
or i n our l a t i t u d e somehow. This might account f o r i t ; I don't
know, t h i s is j u s t talking off t h e top of our heads.
I was impressed with t h a t technique at the time because i t
was so very d i f f e r e n t , and it seemed a wonderful shortcut t o
stained glass.
Monihan: 	 I would l i k e t o say f o r t h e purpose of t h i s interview t h a t Andrg
Girard, who i s a d i s c i p l e of Bonnard, was t r u l y an a r t i s t t h a t
should be c l a s s i f i e d very high i n rank with the religious a r t i s t s .
I was j u s t showing you, K a i , the volume of serigraphs which he
did i n s i x t y copies.
DuCasse : 	
Sixty-five, I believe.
Monihan: 	 He did sixty-five copies and I have copy number twenty-eight.
This was published a t Nyack, New York, September, 1956, and the .
t i t l e is "The Sayings of Jesus; Sermon on the Mount; and Instruc-
tions t o the Disciples. "
DuCasse: 	 And each book was hand-done by the a r t i s t , by Girard.
Monihan: 	 Yes. And by the way, Girard said, "When the a r t i s t uses the
squeegee i t ' s l i k e the v i o l i n i s t using the bow." Each time i t ' s
done i t ' s an original--even though there a r e many copies--it's
s t i l l an o r i g i n a l work of a r t .
DuCasse: That's fascinating. I ' v e never heard t h a t explained. A person
l i k e S i s t e r Corita, i n her e a r l y days, it would have been
wonderful t o have asked her did she f e e l t h i s about it, because
-
I ' v e never heard t h a t said before. It's a marvelous way t o
express it. I think many people don't understand t h a t a seri-
graph is a personal work of a r t . I t ' s not j u s t a p r i n t , you
know, anything but.
Monihan: Oh no. Don't you f e e l t h a t Girard did a great piece?
DuCasse: Oh, extraordinary. A tour de force r e a l l y , a most remarkable
work, and beautifully t y p i c a l of h i s s t y l e which has a delicacy
which I think maybe he'd developed through t h e work on glass
because t h e l i g h t gives it another dimension, f i l l s i n some of
those open spaces so beautifully. But he c a r r i e s it off very
w e l l i n t h i s s e r i e s .
You were a l s o saying something about h i s character, which I
think i s lovely t o remember, maybe t h a t a l s o is reflected i n h i s
work.
Monihan: H i s character was t h a t of a man of great gentleness and great
kindness and s e n s i t i v i t y . Soft-spoken, very i n t e l l i g e n t ,
exploring new ideas. S h a l l I go ahead and explain t o you the
visit we had?
DuCasse: Y e s , please do.
Monihan: It was a memorable v i s i t I had one Christmas i n t h e middle-
f i f t i e s . W i l l Ready of Stanford Library came with ~ n d r ; Girard
t o USF and we had drinks i n m
y o f f i c e and went down t o Sam's
G r i l l , a very well-known San Francisco restaurant. I n the course
of our conversation--a good p a r t of it was on t h e Holy Eucharist--
Andrd Girard said h e was contemplating a s e r i e s of some s o r t on
the Eucharist.
The dinner was memorable f o r me because Andr6 spoke
extensively, with great cordiality. It was completely i n a
Christmas s p i r i t , and i t was a lovely dinner, but the elevation
of the subject matter made i t absolutely glorious. That v i s i t
a t dinner a t Sam's G r i l l w i l l always remain i n m
y mind. It was
h i s c h a r a c t e r i s t i c a s an a r t i s t ; i n a lovely way h e made use of
h i s friends i n talking out a subject t h a t he wanted t o explore
a s an a r t i s t .
DuCasse: True, and t h a t was a b e a u t i f u l correlation i n a sense because,
of course, t h e Eucharist i s the meal that Christ had with h i s
d i s c i p l e s , and so how very beautifully related i t was.
Monihan: And the three of us look back on t h a t particular dinner, W i l l
Ready and Andr6 and I look back on t h a t dinner a s a very special
evening.
AndrrS Girard ranks high--also he was a very handsome man,
man apparently of great personal discipline, but showed great
joy i n h i s l i f e , and generous. This volume of serigraphs,
"Sayings of Jesus,'' was given t o m
e i n the middle-fifties f o r
the l i b r a r y .
a
DuCasse: It certainly i s a treasure t o have. I haven't seen anything
q u i t e l i k e t h a t ; i t ' s most remarkable. I think he is a beautiful
example of a contemporary religious, or l i t u r g i c a l , a r t i s t
(because of course he was both), of a believing a r t i s t . W
e have
many great a r t i s t s who aren't s t r i c t l y , l e t ' s say, believers i n
the i n s t i t u t i o n a l Church sense, but certainly Andre' Girard would
be a very f i n e example of the best of Christian a r t i s t s .
Monihan: Very best, very best.
Transcriber : Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History O f f i c e University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, C a l i f o r n i a
Renais.sance of Reli,gious A r t and Architecture
i n t h e San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
E l i o Benvenuto 

HIGH POINTS, AND LOW POINTS, I N CONTEMPORARY

CATHOLIC CHURCH ART

An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of t h e University of C a l i f o r n i a
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- E l i o Benventuo
INTERVIEW HISTORY
BACKGROUND: PIETRASANTA, ITALY
LITURGICAL WORK SINCE THE EARLY 1950s
Corpus C h r i s t i Church, San Francisco
The L i t u r g i c a l Lexicon
Father V i t a l Vodusek
Chapel f o r t h e Ursuline S i s t e r s
Catholic Art Forum, and St. Mary's Cathedral
S t . Luke's Church, Stockton
THOUGHTS ON THE STATE OF CHURCH ART TODAY, AND RECOMMENDATIONS
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Elio Benvenuto came t o San Francisco from Pietrasanta, I t a l y , soon 

a f t e r the end of World War 1
1
. He brought with him h i s very great t a l e n t 

a s a sculptor and teacher, a s well a s the inexhaustible energy of h i s 

countrymen. He has been a most productive and distinguished member of 

San Francisco's a r t colony every since. 

Almost from the beginning, he was involved i n religious a r t , primarily
f o r the Catholic Church. From h i s experience i n I t a l y , and out of h i s
belief t h a t "part of the professional and elementary items with which the
I t a l i a n , a l l the European a r t i s t s work, is a background of Biblical educa-
tion," he was an ideal founding member of the Catholic A r t Forum. He
shared the wisdom of h i s experience with members and helped t o build upon
it i n developing the policy and aims of t h e Forum through the two decades
of its existence.
Elio Benvenuto has pursued h i s t a l e n t a s a sculptor and a painter,
winning many honors and the j u s t recognition of h i s peers. He l i v e s and
works i n the studio which was originally b u i l t , lived and worked i n , by
the l a t e Arthur Putnam, a great sculptor who was a l s o honored f o r h i s work
a s a member of the San Francisco a r t community. This has surely been an
added inspiration f o r Elio, .and would be of great s a t i s f a c t i o n t o Arthur
Putnam.
It was a special pleasure t o return t o old friends i n t h a t twice-
famous studio t o interview Elio, who still has pertinent ideas on the
subject of l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n the Bay Area, and t o renew my association
with him and h i s lovely and talented wife, Lydia Maccharini Benvenuto,
who a l s o was a member of the Catholic A r t Forum.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office 

Room 486 ii 

The Bancroft Library 

University of California 

Berkeley, California 94720 

Your full name Z L/O ~F'NV~~~Y'OG
Date of birth &
&
& 9 /7/&
/
Place of birth- ~/ETR#SANTA.
Father's full name G/D/&/~J^&/
B F / / E M U ~
Father's place of birth GEM^^
Mother's place of birth C ~ d / / m / /
a
,
!
- ,r#pD]#/A Y
1
Where did you grow up?fi.F.h~?dej/fl~ -&F@DA, FLOZEHCE.
Education Pld~~flyif c,/Y~fi,
fl/y$///Tf--
f 4 ?
MARLO .L!ULFUM~ Flot4~/7JLE/ f l L Y .
Employment CDH#//~Y ,fK~ ~ ~ . & ' h ! ~ ~ f l
/U//E&E. -6
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I
EXHIBITIONS iii
Fim Summcr Exhibition. Viucggio. Italy. 1934 

Mont~atiniGmup Show. Mont~atini.
Italy. 1935 

Kursal. Regional Exhibition. Viucggio. Italy. 1937-40 

Pvtenc San Gnllo National. Florence. luly. 1937 

Bonega Dci Vagcri. Viucggio. luly, 1941-42 

5nuindncnleExhibition. Luccn. Italy. 1938 

Gallery of the Soldiers at Amu. Txo Man Exhibition. Verona. Italy. 1942 

Lucn Regional Exhibition. Lucca. Idy. 1946-47 

Blxk and White Drawing Exhibirion. Pieunrmm. luly. 1946-47 

lnternational Exhibition. Fone Dci M h . Invited: 1948 

San Fnnciuo Annual Am Fmival. 1949. 1952. 1914. 1981. 

Siny Ninth Annual Oil Tempera and SNlpmrc Exhibit of che San Franciuo An h i a t i o n . 1910 

Dc Young Memorial Museum. Religious Am by California Anina 10-11.12.

75th Annual &n Francixo An Innimte Caulog. 

Catholic An Forum Exhibition, 1916. 

America Federation of the Am-TravelingExhibition 3-1958. 3-1959. 

San Fnnciuo An h u t i o n An Bank, 1998. 

Eric Loeke Gallery. 3rd Annual. 

Palaceof the Lgion of Honor-Purchase A w d fmm the City Collection. 1960. 

San Francisco 1Sn h i a t i o n Contempomy An. 1960. 

'
Grace Cathedral. Church An Today-Trinity. 1960. 

79th &n Franc- An h i a t i o n Annual. S.F. 'Mom. 1960. 

San Fnncko An h i n t i o n An Bank Catalog. 1999,1960.1961. 

San Francisco Museum of Modern An. Rend Gallery. 1960, 1961. 

San Fmnciuo An k i a t i o n ContemporarySculpture. 1961. 

h u e d Contempomy An. h d e . August 1962. 

San Fnncko An h i a t i o n Inmtion and Tradition, 1962. 

San Fnnciuo An h i a t i o n An Bank Catalog. 1962. 1963. 

Muin Mvvvm h i a t i o n Exhibition Mprin County Civic Gnter. 1961. 

San F m n c h An Asxiation An Eiank 6 u l o g from the S i h Touring Exhibition. 1964. 1966. 

38 San Fnncixo Art h i n t i o n An Bank Caulog. 1964.1966. ,
AWA.RDS IN ITALY '
Montmtini. SNlpntrc Exhibition 1931 " G I N 0 Terncar 

Guiboldi Prize. Vinreggio 1942 "FRANCA" W u 

Natiand Gallery of Modern Am. Rome I942 "CALF" animal Pluter of Rrir and W u
Lucca An h i a t i o n Prize. Lucca 1946 "DONATELLA" W u
Lucca An M a t i o n Prize. Lucm 1947 "ANNA" W u
5th Annual An ktivrl. S.F. 1911 "PIETRIAL" Wood
Sncnmrnto State Fair 1952 "MOTHER AND CHILD" Mublt
The American Institute of Architcar. Award of Honor 1912 "SCUtPTURES FOR Wood-Bmnzc
CORPUS CHRISTI"
San Fmncirso Annud An k t i v d 1914 " S m ' Stonc
San Fmncixo Annual An Festival 1964 "SCULPIURE" Stone 

Sm Francisco Annual An Festival 1970 "SCULFIURE Wood. Meul. Can=

San Fmncixo Annual An Festival 1978 "DRAWING" Pencil on Papr 

Civic Awards: CaliforniaState Resolution @
I
1
8 Scptemkr 21. 1976. 

San Francisco City and bunty. Gn5cnte of Honor. Scptemkr 21. 1981. 

International prize, Am, and CUImre; "c*A" di Terracina 1982. 

ARTSJURYDUTY
Duty: Juror. California State Fair; 1915. 

Sm Francisco Annual An Festival; 1911. 

Amcrican Phisician An Amiation; 1968. 

Advisory Board, Sacramento State Fair: 1977-81. 

Association: Anist Equity Auociation: 1950-70. 

San Francisco An h i a t i o n : 1910.70. 

CatholicAn Forum: 1952-70. 

Academia Tikrina. h i a t i o n Mcmkr. Rome. since 1967.
iv 

Elio Benvenuto: A survey of 50 years of work 

We don'x have to confuse our art with that of painters, which essentially has to turn to dynamic images that will be alive and
project from the canvas; painting is fundamentally lyric. and rends to produce musicality of the figurative themes. Sculpture liverin
a three dimcntional space; it docs not need any device to suppon it as if it were a flat linnrism.' 1943
Recalling this statement fony years later. Wio Bcnvenuto mponds with a changed attitude toward painting. and mum his posi-
tion on sculpture.
Art historv. and crwciallv scvcral mists such uJacopo della Qucrcia. Tino Da Camuno. m d I Piimr. vcre imponant and in-
fluential toElio u r young inist. At rge eleven, h;beGn as an apprentice to his father, r d nudied modelling. dnwing. and mar-
ble carvinn. When he wu sixteen. Elio h e Iiournevman havinn learned the mhnical a s w t throunh his nrin tnditional min-
ing. At th; age of menteen Elio moved to ~ e n o a
to Ark. and artended the Academy ofFine AN^ two yean.
He left the Academy in 1933, disenchanted with what he considered to be an exceuive emphasis on mcticulow detail. Elio con-
tinued to work and h e chief vristant to a local sculptor. Amedeo Notis, who wu creating monuments for the Staglieno
Gmctcry in Ccnm. At this time Elio began to developa realinic nyle exemplified by the fim I
h
mworks in thiscatalog; the h o m e
of his fathct's hnd. "Tobias." and "Brigidia." From 1933-35 he studied an and meral artists. whom h e m pc imponant in-
fluences: Donatello. R~rrcllino,and the 19th century Rodin.
Elio served in the Italian Army in 1935-36and again in 1940.43; between enlimenu. he puacd a t a t and rmived the degree of
Bachelor of Fine Ans fmm the San Muco Lyceum in Florence. During the m e period. Wio had an exhibition of vulpturn at the
"Pancrre San Gallo" which wu an imponant vehicle of exposure for Italian anisu.
In 1938, he completed "Tobias." the boy with a fish. which wpc cut in bmnze in 1981. and iscurrently on display at the MUM
Italo-Amcricmo. Elio won a competition in 1941, and wpc awarded a contract to connruct and carve a memotial for World War
One. The competition was sponsored by the Engineer Corps of the Italian Amy. Once back in h
i Pietrrpnta nudio, he began to
work on the monument. For this he received national mognition. and he continued to work on p r o j ~ u
for the Engineer brp. In
the wmc period, when in Pietrunnta. he frequented the revitalized "Bottega dei Vageri." meeting place and exhibition gallery for
the region's artists. and those confined by the "Regime." His activityexpanded and hepanicipated in regional and national rhorr.
receiving one national and four regional awards. "The Calf' wu acquired for the national gallery in Rome.
After the war, the Committee for National Liberation (formed during the war as an underground organization) appointed Elio to
the city council: in 1945t h y elected him as Mayor of Pietrasanta. His administration quickly created new jobs, faciliuting pmr-w
monnruction. Elio revitalized the marble industry by wing surplus army tmop trucks to mow materials and marble down fmm the
Altissimo quarry. Aftet the renular rdministration election in 1946. and with the stabilization of Italy. Uio devoted his time to his
m work. i h e &had an imGct on Uio's an. The poignancy of suffering and datmction wu such &at he could no longer express
himself throueh ~urelv
formal and academic methods te~rocntedin such works as "Tobiu." Therefore. in Uto's words "in that
-period of 194; to 1954. 1went thmugh what I can call i n exprcuionltic period.
I developed a strongneed to carvereligious wotk. Don lithurgical in content. Thu was a common thematic ground. its
interprnation. k a m e the subjm matter to reach for a personal idiom."
Lpreuionist works include: "kruus." 1946: "The Angel of the Annunciation." 1941; and "Swimmer." 1948. -. whom
Jesus n i v d from the dead, is sculpted as a stiff. bandaged body, mcmbling someone just removed from the wmkagc of a bombed
building. The "Angel." although roughly chkled from wood. eminates a gentle nature thmugh the delicate gmureof her n m .
At that time he a h executed several portraits of local pe~nalities
among which wu included his father.
Duting the 1946-48 period. Elio funher developed hk expressionistic work. and was invited to panicipte in the Fone dei Mami.
International Exhibition with "Francr."
'Thl quac is from Wio's journal written in Pirtmta. luly. 1943. The rrmaindo_l from interview with Uio by
6 thl writer. March 1982.
In 1948 Elio moved m San Fnnciao and n m d the "Swimmer" which embodia fullness m d e d in a streamlined form ex-
pressiveof movement through water. "The Poet" (1952) and "Tightmpe Walker" (1953) rre additional examples of Elio's exprer-
sionism. pictured in this catalogue. Elio was interested in E u t o p n misu like Mwre. Lipchitz. and Caldera whom he found mom
creative than the American anku of the time who hadn't developed a personal idiom.
In 1950Elio wu commissioned by Father Zunino. pastor of the Corpus Christi Church.' to m t c the (14) nations of the cross,the
central crucifix. and the two figures for either side of the mnnuary. The architect Mario Ciampi designed the church. When the pro-
j m w ~ (
completed, it k a m e a unique lithutgical environment. The workexpmes the sorrowof Christ's p a i o n and the miracleof
resurrection. In World Magazine. 26 October 1952. critic Alfred Frankenstein had this to my of the church:
Among other things. the lighting ntvcs to dramacite Bmvenuto's nations of the crm, carved in r stmng simple style
not unlike that of folk art. Bcnnnuto's hanging crucifix and his sculptutes on the columns n either sideof the wnc-
tuary are both fluent and monumental at once.
During the 1950's. Elio's work b e more abstract. He worked with the lines. form. and volume of the medium. explorinn the
nature o~sculptutal
space. The SanJose fountain. iu model. "Cerbe~s." and "Don Quixocc" ucexamplesof his uoc6fuu1pturc
as an abstract media. In the stm~licitv
of his abstract works "Kimera" (1914). "Fantiscritti" (1962) and "LTacca Blanca" (1963)
the tension of the pans octtler into the general composition of the P
( a whole. E.M. ally & Anforum rnponded w'Mi>;
abstract work: "Benvenuto's formal marble and wood w u l ~ t u m
is work about which it is not neccrwrv to wv vem much. not
because it i
s unvonhy of comment but because iu exccllc& is obvious." This is mon obviow in " ~ i m e n " upbn clnmining the
~aniculan
closelv. and then s t e ~ ~ i n n there is a dualitv of the
back. What do mu we UD close?What at a dtstmcc? In "Fantkritti"
;mwth white mirble. and the ;&kgof black slatewhjch attra& and repel rimultaneously. The balance of the yc-arresting kLobson
'
'
I
sTacca Blanca." which seem to suspend it in rpce. k a h an example of Elio's abstract works.
In 1765. along with architect Roger Ranuio. Elio was commissioned by the Pastor of St. Luke's Church in Stockton. Glifomia.
to design and nrve d l appunenanca. Elio completed the altar. baptismal font. central crucifix. m
P
Icandelabra. a large tapestry
symbolizing the Owe pmphny of rebirth. and the statue of Saint Luke. A contmveay ensued over the finished statue of St. Luke.
which differed in form from the original sketches that Elio had prcxnted. Accwing him of "modernistic deviation." the prnor
removed the three-ton uulptbrc. chaining it to a pole in the back l a of the church. The suwe became the ccnrral f a u sof the con-
troversy. modem versus ttaditional. The church and io rppuncnancu w r e presented on national television. channel 5 inJanuary
1965 by Walter Cmnkite. Only Saint Luke wpc rejected and it is currently on display at the Richmond An G n t n .
Elio hpc been an active member of the m community here for over thiny yrur.In 1967, he h e the dimtor for the San Fran.
cixo An Commission, of the annual A n Festinl. and the Visual A m Pmgnm. In 1970. with the urinancc of =me misu, he
remodelled an old city building developing the An Commission's gallery. "Capricorn Asunder." This gallery k a m e imtrumend
in promoting vounn and established anins alike. The California State Senate. and the city of b n Franciscocommended Elio for hu
work in devdoping-the Festival and gallery pc a vital expression of Bay Area artists. Elio Bcnvenuto k pmcntly imtructing life draw.
inn and x u l ~ t u r e
clroer at the Fort Muon Gnter. which he helmd establish with the late bmmunitv Gnter Ditectot Dr. Alfred
~ k v e d o .
The center now serves as a cultural render-vous for the an Franciscocommunity. To pmenr'the stonenrving technique.
he h u established specialized councs in marble carving which ate strumred to continue the traditional and anistic w of this
material. His activity wu rewded with seven regional prizes, one national award. The American lnstiwteof Architcc~s;
and the In.
ternational prize d'Ane and Culture. "Citta" di Terracina 1982. He iscunently working on scvcralgraphic and vulpwral projects.
Gregory Albright. 1982
Written under the direction of Ray Mondini. Chair
Humanith Depanmcnt. Sul Francisco An Inniwte
*Puirnidmt f a many ynn. 

I h t d in San Fnncim on Santa Row Avenue at the 45th block of M i a i Gmc. 

ARTIST'S STATEMENT

Thox ycur which appeu to be lar productive in ut works were richer in human experiencn. and I felt compelled to
k m e more involved in the multiform opponunity that this Society wu offering.
The complexityof mryday contact with my fellow mists m l t e d in the necessityto xck, depending on the circumnances,
alternative avenues with the goal in mind to Prren or compensate for the vacuum which I felt wu surrounding the public
forum. in so far as the u~ were concerned.
I joined the San Francisco An Amciation wirh the belief that the common ground of unity of intent might slowly overcome
the almfneu of the general public toward the a
m through a systematic exposureof our aninic effom. The museum. which at
the beginning of the 50's appeared to be a strong ally. in time cancelled all the laal exhibitionsone by one in the qunr for a
berter audience.
The Am throughout the ages have functioned as a catnlytic link that bound man and His Gods. Only in recent history the
illuministic philosophen were among the many who took partial hold on the m l a r culture and concurred to break the
binominal Man-God link. Man since that time is m r searching for his soul and nn is the mirror.
Aput from the many reactions that this natement may nix. I deeply felt that the Am were gnnted the reason to "Live"
only u m aftenhought, never recognized u nn arrhetypal fone of primeval necessity, which 1feel it is. An aruion nrov that
seemed to be leading to a berter undentanding ( u far as I w coficerned) of the Public-mind reaction to an all comprehensive
vhal An Program.
In this period I was offered the role of d i h o r of the ever peripateric and always interesting Annual An Festivnl (conceived
in the 30's by a courageoushandful of nniru); this w always in favor with the Public. sometimes appreciated and other times
denied by the aitiu. B e m n the 70's and 80's I bmmc very much involved in the An Commission's Am prognm. To the
"Annual" 1dedicated time md concern. promoting local and international v h a l Am exchangeprognm that were b e n d ~ i d
to both panies involved. Vancouver (British Columbia) utim were invited to the Annual Fmival whm t h y pmmted a
simulating group of rorks. shown in n specially prepared pavilion. The following F r San F ~ c i v o
Anim. chmcn by a panel
of mists. were the mnin artmion at the 1973 Maximillinn Planetarium Museum and at the An-lash exhibition.
Guadalajan, Jalisco. Mexico became a common loricon due to the misu' exchange b e m n the nocountries. GuadalJnra
utim were pmnted in the ever hospitable "Capricorn h n d e r " Gallery and San Francisco paintm were hosted in the
beautiful State-sponsoredGaleria Dc Anes Plmica in downtown Guadalajara.
The 70's vrre marked by the Ovlu international Erpo where a handful of highly qualified Bay Area Anisu reprcrented
the United States Am. In 1975.76 Japanese mists came here (over a hundred) with rhc most muvrllous a r i a of exhibitions.
poetry recitals. and dance performancn which electrified the Bay A m for almost a month.
M
y main concernswere with thov programs that the An Gmmission originated and wu entrusted with. S c v d ouunnding
exhibitions were pmcnted in the An Commission "Caprimm &under" Gallery. mmeprual or mdiuonal. they received
positive critical mponsc.
Since the ntablishment of the Am Gnter at Fon Mason. I saw the opponunity to expand the cunicula with a rpccd coune
for xulptors. Mechanical equipment and adequate facilitiespermitted the use of mditional media for anisn working with mar-
46 ble. stone. granite and d
.
This course w and is offered to all nudcnts willing to wrestle the hard none.
With all these varied program to take care of. I w left with a very limited time for my perronal use. I took advantageof
my life classes. Pencil drawing md clay became my principal expressive avenueswithin the dynamicof everyday life. Mainly
figuntive, this body of w r k delvn into the study of the human forms from a wiety of angln and compositionalgcnure.
Several ceramic pieces came out of the kiln in the same period. again figurative. ISRAEL #I and UZ. shown yrrn ago in a
special exhibition. Funhennore. I pumed the playful and nimulating clay media, obtaining some interesting raulu such pr:
IT IS NOW (inverted letter S) or the more complex nudy of DIANE OF EPHESUS, maquettc for a bronze statue. (See photo
x65).
.
A period of travel took place: I revisited the ancient gigantic Apuan marble quarries. sun blinding in the noon hour. mnc-
ing the path of history of the Tuxan region. The roughed Mexican coutlinc, the sublime sita at Monte Alban and Mitla.
became a pilgrimage for ~ ~ t n l
pn. 

The fifty year sumey wu shon of one piece of m ~ l p ~ r e .
a thought which haunted me for some time in the ever bury houn
of the day. In 1982 following the cyclical tide of the seprons,this lut piece for the show became ALABASTER MOON DESCW-
DING ON A DESERTED PLAZA. an homage to Giorgio D
c Chirico.
This journey is ever present and longing for a quality of life compatible with my social.anthetic belief. and the shnrc of a 

w t horizon within the depth and limit of my imagination. 

HIGH POINTS, AND LOW POINTS,
CHURCH A
R
T
I N C
O
N
T
E
M
P
O
R
A
R
Y CATHOLIC
[Interview date: September 21, 19831
Background: Pietrasanta. I t a l v
DuCasse: Today our interview is with Elio Benvenuto, and the interview is
taking place i n h i s studio i n San Francisco which originally
belonged t o Arthur Putnam. Elio has j u s t presented me with a
curriculum v i t a e and we w i l l j u s t take a l i t t l e b i t from it.
H i s birthdate was January 7, 1914, and h i s education was i n I t a l y
a t the Academia Ligustica d i Belle A r t i , Genoa--.
Elio, why don't you j u s t t e l l us the most important things,
and about your teaching experience now, and some of t h e awards.
Benvenuto: Very well, Miss DuCasse. (I'm formally addressing you now.)
DuCasse: Thank you! W
e can go back t o our f i r s t names l a t e r .
Benvenuto: Okay. A s you have read i n t h i s biography, I did go t o the
Academy of Fine A r t i n Genoa, which is "Ligustical'--from Liguria.
And a f t e r a few years of works with Mr. Norris, a sculptor, a
friend of m
y father, I went back t o Florence.
I did follow the courses a t the Lyceum of St. Mark. That
was t h e c l a s s i c a l college which prepared a r t i s t s f o r the future
a r t i s t i c l i f e . Then I came back t o Pietrasanta and l a t e r I went
i n the army, which cut out plenty of the dreams!
When t h a t period was over, I came back t o Pietrasanta and
I taught a private drawing, plastique (clay) a r t class, and
mainly history of the a r t s . This was a rather professional
approach t o teaching a r t , a t t h a t time very much f e l t , but not
very much practiced by many people. I n Pietrasanta, i n the years
between 1935 and 1940, i t was a time when I was teaching, working
Benvenuto: 	 i n m
y studio, and a t the same time preparing quite a few projects.
I n the same period, a s you well know, about the end of the
t h i r t i e s , the big clouds of the war came over, and I , a s many
other young people, had t o go, and I spent about four years i n
the army.
During t h i s period though, I became very much involved i n
the a r t nevertheless. I won a national competition f o r a monument
t o the bridge engineers corp i n March, 1941. The l o c a l commandant
gave m
e ample time t o execute and work out a l l these large com-
ponents of the monument, which was about f i f t y long by t h i r t y f e e t
large, with a group of seven figures and architectual elements.
So, I have t o say t h a t my army time was spent carving,
drawing, and modeling. I was very fortunate that the person i n
charge of the bridge engineer corps was General Paladino, a very
Renaissance type of man, and he liked t o have an a r t i s t i n h i s
troop, so I was treated l i k e the prodigal son.
DuCasse: 	 T e r r i f i c . It could only happen i n I t a l y .
Benvenuto: 	 Well, I don't know, but I heard t h a t i n the United S t a t e s army
some a r t i s t s were serving i n various branches, e t cetera,
performing tasks other than m i l i t a r i s t i c duties. I was, anyway,
lucky t o have t h i s assignment.
So, u n t i l the collapse of the I t a l i a n army and the f a s c i s t i c
regime i n September, 1943, I performed t h a t p a r t i c u l a r duty. Then
it became m
y time t o get involved i n the freedom f i g h t , and I was
involved i n the underground, e t cetera, e t cetera. W
e don't want
t o go through t h a t now.
In 1948, a f t e r the war, I followed my wife--Lydia
Macchiarini, born i n Santa Rosa, California--out of an idea of
seeing what America was, more than anything else. I n Pietra-
santa I had my studio, I was very well s e t t l e d there. I gave up
p o l i t i c a l ambition. For a time a f t e r the war I was the mayor of
the town. I was proposed t o run f o r higher o f f i c e , i n congress.
I gave up "the favour" f o r I didn't want t o become another
p o l i t i c i a n ; I think it was too much f o r m
y temperament t o
sustain.
DuCasse: 	 Well, you were more of an a r t i s t a f t e r a l l .
Benvenuto: 	 Yes, and t h a t was a f a c t . I always had the necessity t o go i n
the studio and work, and a s i t was I couldn't do i t anymore. So
the t r i p of m
y wife i n the United S t a t e s gave.me an opportunity
t o r e a l l y break off clean with my I t a l i a n , lovely and great
people, but i n the same time very much p o l i t i c a l l y involved; a t
that time I couldn't take the climate anymore o r any longer.
Liturgical Work Since the Early 1950s
Corpus C h r i s t i Church, San Francisco
Benvenuto: 	 So I came here. One of t h e f i r s t works which was offered t o me
was the Corpus C h r i s t i Church appurtenances, mainly the sculptures
p a r t of it. [Corpus C h r i s t i Church, Santa Rosa and Alemany Blvd.]
These were the s t a t i o n s of the cross, the bronze corpus on top
of the a l t a r , and the two l a t e r a l figures, the Sacred Heart and
the Madonna.
The a r c h i t e c t of t h i s particular church is Mr. Mario Ciampi,
but the work was r e a l l y assigned t o me f i r s t by the pastor,
Father Zunino, which saw my work i n other places, but mainly
those I had i n the studio across the s t r e e t , i n front of the
church. Every day he would come over t o pass a few minutes, t o
chat; apparently he liked what I was doing.
Then, when Ciampi got t h e assignment t o build the new church,
he contacted me and asked m
e i f I would prepare some example,
maquettes, which I did. About the same time there was an exhibi-
tion, held i n the Palace of Fine A r t , and these examples went i n
the exhibition--that was the San Francisco Annual A r t Festival--
and were awarded a prize. Those circumstances helped favorably
the project; my professional s t a t u s became b e t t e r established.
DuCasse: 	 And what were the dates roughly of t h i s period?
Benvenuto: 	 It was 1949-1951. That's the period i n which I developed a l l the
artworks which became p a r t of the Corpus C h r i s t i complex. The
Salesian Fathers were i n charge of the parish.
So that was the f i r s t large work I conceived and executed
i n wood. It was r a t h e r an i n t e r e s t i n g project which I did without
a preconceived idea. I n a sense, it was my passport t o t h e a r t
world. W
e didn't want i t t o become modern f o r the sake t o be
modern, but I f e l t the necessity t o renew the character of these
l i t u r g i c a l works which appeared t o me, at l e a s t what I saw around,
very d u l l and very commercial. So m
y main purpose was t o give
a rather strong impact,.original interpretation, of what a r t
could do f o r such an environment, and i n a contemporary vein.
I believe t h a t we were successful. W
e received many
complaints by some of the parishioners; then, t h e appreciation
of people which knew a l i t t l e b i t more. And i n the end it was
very well accepted by a l l . Surely it was a rather pleasant
r e s u l t , especially f o r the pastor which had taken' a chance!
DuCasse: True. And he backed you a l l the way, didn't he?
Benvenuto: And backed m
e up a l l the way. Well, t h a t was the f i r s t one.
The Liturgical Lexicon
Benvenuto: I believe we a r e now involved i n making a b r i e f history of m
y
involvement i n the l i t u r g i c a l a r t s i n San Francisco and around
the country.
DuCasse: Correct. That a l s o answers m
y f i r s t question, which was when
you were f i r s t using religious subjects i n your sculptare.
Benvenuto: I believe t h a t a s p a r t of the professional and elementary items
with which t h e I t a l i a n , a l l the European a r t i s t s work, i t i s with
a background of Biblical education, even i f they a r e not religious.
And j u s t f o r t h a t reason I had carved q u i t e a few works of a
religious nature, not l i t u r g i c a l but of a r e l i g i o u s nature. One
became q u i t e famous, t h e Resurrection of Lazarus, which was ex-
hibited a t the San Francisco Museum of A r t i n 1951, and before
i n Florence, e t cetera, e t cetera.
So, I did not have a s t r i c t l y l i t u r g i c a l background, but I
knew a s much a s any expert, f o r don't forget I come from a small
but very cosmopolitan town which has served the world with a l l
l i t u r g i c a l appurtenances since 1860, Pietrasanta. Ten thousand
craftsmen and a r t i s t s have, I believe, spread a s much the gospel
a s any proselytizing s a i n t !
~uc'asse: I ' m sure of t h a t !
Benvenuto: And it's true. So, a s I was saying, I did not have a l i t u r g i c a l
preparation, but it was p a r t of t h e general lexicon of l i f e ; i t
was not l i t u r g i c a l f o r me, but it was religious f o r many people.
DuCasse: What was your impression of the a t t i t u d e of the Church a u t h o r i t i e s
about the use of contemporary a r t , other than t h i s one pastor who
seems t o have been very receptive? H
o
w did you f e e l a t the time
o r a f t e r t h a t about t h i s s i t u a t i o n of the acceptance of l o c a l
a r t i s t s r a t h e r than something which was bought out of a catalogue?
Benvenuto: I have firm convictions t h a t at the time many of the curia and
especially, a s f a r a s I ' m concerned, the San Francisco arch-
diocese were not prepared t o any a r t movement o r t o any realiza-
-
t i o n t h a t art was the best "visual" words t o reach the people.
Benvenuto: 	 They were so uneducated insofar a s a r t was concerned:that I was
appalled, f o r even i f the I t a l i a n p r i e s t s were misled by the
Renaissance and s t i l l i n s i s t e d on some worn out canons, a t
l e a s t what they did choose was of technically a very chosen
quality and was not out of a catalogue.
This certainly i s not t r u e f o r a l l even of t h e I t a l i a n
p r i e s t s , a s much a s i t i s not t r u e for the American ones. I
found some people i n the archdiocese, l i k e Father Hurley or
Monsignor Maher, which were responding t o my i n q u i s i t i v e mind
insofar i t was the use of a new contemporary language i n the
l i t u r g i c a l a r t . And they did ask me out quite a b i t , i t ' s true.
I don't know where a t t h i s day Monsignor Maher is. I believe
h e ' s a bishop now.
DuCasse: 	 I believe he is, i n Santa Rosa, i f I ' m not mistaken.
Benvenuto: 	 Is he? I don't know. But I do remember very well t h a t a t t h e
time Archbishop Mitty was the archbishop i n charge of the San
Francisco dioceses, I did, through Monsignor Hurley, a p o r t r a i t
of Bishop O'Dowd, who was i n a railway incident k i l l e d i n Santa
Rosa o r Sonoma. It was Monsignor Hurley or Maher, one of these
two persons, who asked m
e t o make a p o r t r a i t , which I did, a s a
goodwill gesture. And the same p o r t r a i t was l a t e r placed a t the
Bishop OIDowd High School i n Oakland.
M
y point i n reminding t h i s was t h a t Archbishop Mitty, when
he was presented with the work, said, "What material i s that?"
I said, "It i s p l a s t e r . l'
He said, "Why aren't you giving m
e marble?"
I said, "Monsignor, I don't have the money f o r it," and t h a t
was it. That was h i s kind of appreciation. I f it w a s marble,
it would be ok; i f i t was p l a s t e r , it was too l i g h t ! [laughter]
That c l a r i f i e s the mentality of some prelates a t t h a t period.
Certainly, a s I mentioned, these two persons, now Bishops, were
very receptive. To Monsignor Maher I proposed a coram populi
[open t o the people] a l t a r . I provided the a r c h i t e c t and the
a r t i s t s , the contractors, t o do i t a s a goodwill gesture. This
was f o r an exhibition, t o show and promote the idea of t h i s
coming-close-to-the-people action. He accepted. Two days l a t e r
or three days l a t e r he called me back and said, "Elio, please
change it, f o r I cannot support you i n your idea." And t h a t was
the end of the project. That was between '53 and '55. It was
very early, before the Vatican Council.
DuCasse: Right. This was a f t e r the exhibit t h a t we had i n San Francisco
a t t h e de Young Museum, and of course you participated i n t h a t
exhibition.
Benvenuto: I was i n t h a t exhibition a t the de Young Museum with you,
Cravath, and other people from California.
Ruth
After t h a t we did q u i t e a few small exhibitions. But I
believe, since you mention the de Young Museum exhibition, i t
was i n t h a t year t h a t a few people, l i k e you, Ruth Cravath,
Ciampi, and a few others, Sotomayor, and other a r t i s t s t h a t now
escape m
y memory, got together and decided t o organize a group
of people which were interested i n furthering the idea of contem-
porary a r t , producing artworks f o r the new contemporary church-
es t h a t were being erected around the country.
DuCasse: Right, and t h a t was the Catholic A r t Forum.
Father V i t a l Vodusek
DuCasse: You were one of the founding members, a s I remember.
Benvenuto: Yes, a s you and other people.
DuCasse: And of course Father Monihan was the s o r t of spearhead f o r that.
Benvenuto: The monitor. And there was Father Vodusek, which not many people
knew but he was a great poet i n t h e Slavonic and Serbian languages.
He was f a n t a s t i c , he was a s e n s i t i v e soul. Yes, I r e a l l y missed
him when he died.
DuCasse: I ' m sure. You were especially a friend of h i s , were you not?
You might t e l l us a l i t t l e b i t about him, because he hasn't
come i n t o the record yet, and it's nice t o have a reminiscence.
Benvenuto: He was a very, very warm person, but I would say very shy t o
speak of h i s a b i l i t y . H i s contribution was h i s great l i t e r a r y
g i f t t h a t he had. He did prefer t o show h i s support f o r other
a r t i s t s , with great enthusiasm, painters or sculptors, poets or
architects. He was a great supporter of m
y work t o the point
t h a t he commissioned me t h e s t a t u e of the Good Shepherd, f o r h e
anticipated t h a t sometimes we must pass away. And there were,
a t t h a t time, a group of s i x people, s i x p r i e s t s , which were
s t r i c t l y bound by the same roots of Slavonic origin, and they
were p a r t of the establishment of the Slavonic Church, and of the
s i x , three I believe were passed away, deceased. So he wanted t o
make a memorial t o them.
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
DuCasse :
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
So I did t h i s large memorial, it was about eight f e e t high,
carved i n stone, the Good Shepherd, which i s i n the Slavonic
section of the Holy Cross Cemetery. I have t o add t h a t l a s t
time I saw i t , on account of atmospheric pollutants mixed with
s u l f u r i c acid, the stone i s rapidly deteriorating a t a very
f a s t pace. But t h a t is something t h a t i s very hard t o overcome,
you see. I do plan t o contact the father and see i f I can do
something t o help t o maintain it.
Would there be something t h a t you could cover it with?
Well, you can give i t a sealer, yes. The problem is t h a t the
maintenance of i t should be regularly performed every year o r
so.
A t l e a s t i t hasn't been vandalized by human hands.
Well, the cemetery is rather a secluded place and there i s l e s s
chances, although I've seen artwork stolen from the I t a l i a n
cemetery.
Oh yes, well, there's such tremendous artwork there! It's l i k e
a museum.
True. But when you a r e talking about vandalizing or vandals,
it is a sad s t a t e of a f f a i r s . There is no l i m i t t o the extent
that damage can be perpetrated t o an artwork by people, f o r
greed or unknown psychotic reasons.
But i n any event, t h a t was my association with Father
Vodusek, and throughout the years we were p r e t t y close, even t o
the point that a t a much later time, 1964 1 believe, he was the
one t h a t mentioned t o me t h a t the s a i n t from St. Luke Church
was i n a yard, they hung i t up with chains t o the telephone
pole. He was the one. He didn't know how t o t e l l me!
He came t o my house. He was crying. Lydia was trying t o
find out, when I arrived l a t e r . Anyway, I saw Father V i t a l
[Vodusek] a l l upset. I said, "What is going on?" Well, he
didn't know how t o t e l l me, but then he told t h e story. Well,
I was surely surprised by t h e action, t o say the l e a s t .
Oh, heavens yes. ad t h a t been taken from h i s church?
No, i t was i n St. Luke's Church i n Stockton. But he had been
v i s i t i n g Stockton i n t h a t day, and the removal had j u s t happened,
or maybe i t was a few days before. I had no idea of the action.
To m
e i t was t h e f i r s t account of the fact. So it was rather
shocking. You a r e an a r t i s t , you know what happens, when you
get beaten on the head.
DuCasse: Oh yes, t h i s i s t h e worst thing t h a t can happen t o you,
something happening t o your own work.
i s
Benvenuto: But, t h a t was Father V i t a l Vodusek,
i n t h e a r t s .
and h i s f u l l involvement
DuCasse: And what was t h e name of h i s church?
Benvenuto: It was t h e Church of The Nativity, Nativity Church on F e l l
S t r e e t , San Francisco. Also, t h e f r o n t of t h e church was
restored by Mario Ciarnpi.
DuCasse: Ah, t h a t ' s good t o know. W e l l , Father Vodusek was c e r t a i n l y
one of our very enthusiastic p r e l a t e sponsors and members of
our group.
Benvenuto: Yes. When we speak about clergy o r r e l i g i o u s people involved
i n t h e a r t o r i n t h e a r t s i n general, i t is r a t h e r d i f f i c u l t
t o appraise t h e number of these persons involved i n it, f o r
usually they a r e staying apart, they never partake i n t h e
general trend of t h e society. But i n those years I did m e e t
q u i t e a few. Father [Terrence] O'Connor of Alma College, the
J e s u i t father. He has a f i n e brain, an i n t e l l i g e n t and acute
mind, and I believe was a fellow sculptor, even though very
seldom he said so. H e was very interested i n t h e philosophical
a t t i t u d e and t h e philosophical meaning of sculpture within the
r e l i g i o u s concept, and t h a t i s where he was a t h i s best.
DuCasse: Absolutely. He is a t USF now.
Benvenuto: Maybe I w i l l c a l l him up some day and go out t o lunch.
DuCasse: Why don't you? I know he'd love t o see you. .
Chapel f o r t h e Ursuline S i s t e r s
Benvenuto: Is Daniel O'Connor s t i l l a c t i v e i n San Francisco?
DuCasse: Not i n a pastoral sense,
with various groups.
but he i s doing a great deal of work
Benvenuto: Very good. I ' m glad, f o r he i s a very enthusiastic man, very
i n t e l l i g e n t , and a l s o I have t o say he was one of m
y moral
sponsors. Through h i s o f f i c e ( a t t h e time I believe he was
resident i n Santa Rosa, California), he asked me t o look a t t h e
plan of a small chapel which a l o c a l a r c h i t e c t was building f o r
t h e Ursuline S i s t e r s . I looked a t t h e plan, I said, "Father,
t h i s is a barn! It's not a church, i t ' s not a chapel."
DuCasse: 	 [laughing] So many of them were, j u s t barns.
Benvenuto: 	 "It's a barn!"
He said, "Do something about it.''
I said, "Can I ? H
o
w can I ? I don't want t o i n s u l t the
architect." I said, "Look, ask the a r c h i t e c t i f I can:consult
with him, but I don't want t o change h i s plan."
Well, Father O'Connor was persistent and contacted the
architect. The architect, out of impatience, didn't have time,
o r out of s p i t e , said t o the p r i e s t , "Go r i g h t ahead, do whatever
you want,'' but he would not change one i o t a of what he had done,
t h a t was h i s contract.
A t t h a t point, Father O'Connor told me, "Well, would you
help me now?''
I said, "Okay, I must have a t a l k with the architect." I
went by the a r c h i t e c t ' s o f f i c e i n Santa Rosa, and I asked him i f
it was true. I said, "I don't want t o do anything against your
desire unless there i s your cooperation, f o r a f t e r a l l you have
t o d i r e c t the contractors."
The a r c h i t e c t was very impressed by my presentation. He
said, "Well, Mr. Benvenuto, you can go r i g h t ahead. I believe
I w i l l do a s much a s I can." So i n the long run he became very
cooperative, and I did make a few changes i n the chapel, which
I won't mention now.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, but a t l e a s t you were able t o modify it.
Benvenuto: 	 Yes, it became a l i t u r g i c a l space, and it w a s important. I did
provide a few items, a tapestry wall hanging with the symbols
of the wheat and the grapes, hung on the back wall of t h e chapel,
t o hide out the dullness of the apsidal wall. I did design the
small a l t a r and the tabernacles and a few other elements. I think
i t is a very nice chapel. I carved a Victorious Christ, with
white robes and a blue mantle, and i t i s i n a victorious a t t i t u d e ,
with open arms t o i n v i t e people.
But those a r e the main, I would say, episodes regarding m
y
a c t i v i t y , not with the Catholic A r t Forum but a s an a r t i s t .
With the Catholic A r t Forum, we did provide q u i t e an
important service, a l l of us, you included, Ruth Cravat'h, and
others which escape my memory now. There were Emi ~ u ~ t a k ,
and
Del Lederle, and other persons. W
e did provide small and very
Benvenuto: exquisite exhibitions t o be seen and shown i n public o r semi-
public spaces, l i k e churches o r convents o r other places
frequented by religious people. I believe it was working well
f o r a few years; we did f o r f i v e o r s i x years.
Catholic A r t Forum, and St. Mary's Cathedral
Benvenuto: A t a c e r t a i n time, by the board of directors, it was decided
t o let the Catholic A r t Forum sleep, and I believe it i s
sleeping now.
DuCasse: It is sleeping now, right.
service i n education?
Do you f e e l t h a t i t performed a good
Benvenuto: I think it was a great service. One of m
y reactions was, I
d i d n ' t see enough clergy participation a s projected. I f e l t we
were imposing upon them t h i s "new dawn," and not everyone, it
seems t o me, was happy about it. Apparently i t seems, and t h i s
I ' m speaking out of experience, t h a t c e r t a i n people, a c e r t a i n
group of people needs longer span of time t o be able t o appreciate
c e r t a i n values. And the only thing I can say is t h a t I hope t h a t
somebody e l s e w i l l do t h e same a s we have done i n the future. I
think i t ' s needed.
Any t i m e I go i n a new church, I see a drab, commercial
type of construction which is uninspiring, i f not outright
objectionable--thatis the p a r t i c u l a r adjective f o r t h i s .
DuCasse: True. That brings us t o St. Mary's Cathedral, and I ' m sure you
have some ideas about what's happening t o t h a t i n mind.
Benvenuto: Yes. I believe St. Mary's Cathedral was p a r t of, I believe one
o f , the pet projects of the Catholic A r t Forum. A t the time
we convened and we f e l t strongly t h a t w e should be heard, and
we should say a t l e a s t how we stood about the building of a new
cathedral i n San Francisco. And I remember very well we were
i n Ruth Cravath's house, and we decided t o i n v i t e the bishop.
What is h i s name?
DuCasse: Archbishop McGucken.
Benvenuto: Y e s , we invited the archbishop a t the meeting.
DuCasse: Wasn't i t here i n your studio?
Benvenuto: 	 That's r i g h t . They did choose my house on account there is a 

l i t t l e b i t of f l o o r space. I remember t h a t t h a t evening there 

were about 150 persons which were around the balconies. W
e had 

q u i t e a crowd. 

The archbishop was very gentle, and I remember very well
when he arrived a t the meeting, he said he had a v i s i t from a
Roman apostolic delegate and he had j u s t one hour t o stay. But
a f t e r the machine-gun questions and t h e heavy bomb which landed
on h i s lap, h e . j u s t forgot about the apostolic delegate, and he
stayed u n t i l over twelve o'clock, when kidding I suggested:
"Look, I want t o go t o bed." H e said, "You a r e right," and he
l e f t . [laughter] He was talking a t t h a t time with my mother-in-
law i n I t a l i a n (an old lady of ninety years old of age a t t h a t
time) .
DuCasse: 	 Oh, marvelous.
He was very open, and he listened t o t h e questions very
f a i r l y .
Benvenuto: 	 What transpired a t t h a t time was t h a t he didn't promise anything,
but apparently we made a strong impression. W e didn't accuse
him t o be a s o r t of a non-committed person, but w e did point out
t h a t it was h i s r o l e t o become very important i n the construction
of the new cathedral.
So months l a t e r we heard t h a t he had hired an I t a l i a n
architect, a famous engineer, M r . Nervi, and t h a t i n a certain
sense appeased our conscience, f o r we f e l t even i f the
corporation of the cathedral's a r c h i t e c t was not composed of
the best minds available i n California, a t l e a s t Mr. Nervi was
a creative mind which might do something good, and i n f a c t I
believe it came out very well, the dome, the i n t e r i o r . I
believe t h a t the character of the cathedral is a beautiful and
dynamic space, even i f the outside i s s t a t i c and conventional.
The dome, the baldachino by [Richard] Lippold is a
shimmering jewel, and the concept of the baldachino, a
s p i r i t u a l protection upon the head of t h e o f f i c i a t o r , i s very
interesting. I think it was a very good idea and i t was
beautifully solved.
DuCasse: 	 I f only t h a t l e v e l of high art had been pursued throughout the
church.
Benvenuto: 	 It's true, but I don't know. It seems t o me a r t , a s anything
e l s e , goes i n periods, not always the same. It goes by pushing,
pulling, sometimes jumping, and sometime it stops. And now i t
seems hibernating.
DuCasse: I remember one of the points that we t r i e d t o put across t o t h e
archbishop t h a t evening here was t h a t l i v e , l o c a l a r t i s t s of
the best caliber should be u t i l i z e d . Now, t h a t wasn't always
done but a t l e a s t they have used actual a r t i s t s . Unfortunately
they bought from d i f f e r e n t places, but they have not j u s t bought
a r t from a catalogue, thank God.
Benvenuto: Yes, you a r e completely right. The idea was probably an e g o i s t i c
idea t o use the l o c a l a r t i s t s , although it was an i n t e r e s t i n g
idea, I believe we had the r i g h t t o pursue t h a t concept. Never-
theless, they did u s e . a r t i s t s ; t h a t was a t l e a s t a positive
reaction t o our meeting. I think i t was great, i n a sense.
St. Luke's Church, Stockton
Benvenuto: Unfortunately every diocese, I don't think they have and I think
they should have, an expert on l i t u r g i c a l a r t . Every diocese
should have an expert, not t o d i c t a t e t o the pastor what t o do,
but a t l e a s t t o open up h i s mind t o what is possible, which now
they don't have, and which a t t h a t time I suggested t o q u i t e a
few of the people I was working with.
I n m
y relationship with Monsignor Hurley i t was t h i s kind
of a relationship! He is a very i n t e l l i g e n t man, and when I
told him what m
y idea was, he said, "Okay, very good, but bear
i n mind t h a t you don't have a l l i n t e l l e c t u a l s there, you have
peasants, you have people which have not gone over elementary
school," which has nothing t o do with intelligence, but has t o
do with preparation.
I said, "Very well, I think I w i l l be a s d i r e c t and as
simple a s possible." And the work i n St. Luke w a s a s simple,
a s d i r e c t a s possible. And the only r e s u l t I obtained i s t h a t
they did take off the most " r e a l i s t i c " piece; they l e f t a l l the
a b s t r a c t works, minus the crucifix.
DuCasse: That's very interesting.
Benvenuto: It is. So a l l t h e other elements a r e abstract, t h e baptismal
font, a l l the elements of the s t a t i o n o f , t h e cross, a l l con-
ceived i n abstract, although they do pinpoint the l i t u r g i c a l
needs. (That work was featured on the national network with
Walter Cronkite. It was a discussion of the sculptures executed
at St. Luke's Church i n Stockton, January 1965.)
DuCasse: They were understandable works.
Benvenuto: Understandable, but they were abstract, and the statue was too
powerful for them. I thought probably they d i d n ' t know who
St. Luke was, f o r through the Biblical history--I didn't mean
t o say t h a t I knew the man--but through the Biblical history
I read enough t o understand that he was a very strong person,
was not always sweet when he was involved i n h i s addressing
and apostolate. He was r i g h t t o the point.
That's what I t r i e d t o convey, that idea of t h i s man talking
a s a r e a l i t y , not a s a concept but j u s t a s a reality. Well, be
what it is, the work is not i n the church, i s now going some
other place, for I never sold the work, never, never, I didn't
want t o s e l l it.
DuCasse : I see. Really i t was on loan, so t o speak?
Benvenuto: It was on the contract, and was not paid. And I s t i l l have it,
and it probably w i l l be placed i n some other place sometime.
DuCasse: Oh, wonderful. I hope so. You know, St. Luke should be i n
hospital because he was the great physician.
a
Benvenuto: That's right!
on Parnassus.
The idea i s t o go t o the University of
That's the idea.
California.
DuCasse: That would be very appropriate. They would accept i t not a s much
a s a religious piece a s a true symbol of the individual, of the
great physician.
Benvenuto: Yes. That is the idea.
Benvenuto: I mentioned a l l t h a t i n the conversation of our appraisal of the
clergy's a t t i t u d e of the time. There were some surely, the one
I mentioned before, and I ' m quite sure there a r e many others
around the country, but I a
m talking of those which I have been
i n contact with, which we can t a l k about, those you have been i n
contact, and there a r e many, but i n the overall I would l i k e t o
repeat the previous concept, on account i t ' s going on record; t h a t
the archdiocese should have an expert on l i t u r g i c a l a r t and seek
h i s advice--advice, i f nothing else.
DuCasse: True, true. I think a t one time they did. I think Monsignor
Maher was supposed t o have.served i n that capacity, but I think
he was a l i t t l e too conservative, h e . d i d n l t have the breadth of
vision or of education i n t h a t to have performed t h a t duty fully.
I think they t r i e d a t one time and it's probably gone by the way-
side.
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
DuCasse :
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
DuCass e:
Benvenuto:
DuCasse:
I do hope they w i l l have, although s t r i c t l y speaking I ' m no
more interested i n doing any l i t u r g i c a l work. A s a matter of
f a c t , I've been asked f o r and I've refused. I f e l t so r e a l l y
bad. I placed a l l my vision i n those 1964 pieces t h a t I f e l t
t h a t they were not appreciated, there was no point f o r me t o
pursue t h a t same idea. I have worked with some other pastor i n
other capacity, yes, I did reorganize the St. Peter and Paul
Church sanctuary several times, since 1950. I did some work f o r
them, but i t was i n a decorative design, not as a r t i s t i c as i t
could be, but a s a decorative p a r t of the l i t u r g i c a l aspect of
t h e appurtenances.
That's a tremendous service i n i t s e l f .
Y e s , it is. Oh, sure it was. That's what they can appreciate
most!
And of course there wasn't anything you could add t o the inside
of t h a t church, was there?
No, no. There i s too much, a s a matter of fact. And I think
I should be f r e e t o mention Father Costanzo. He was t h e soul
of t h a t I t a l i a n church, a dynamic man, very open, although he
stopped a t the Renaissance insofar a s a r t i s concerned.
So many have!
He -
was trying t o simplify the i n t e r i o r of the church, and many
times we t r i e d . W
e did move s a i n t s , p l a s t e r of P a r i s s t a t u e s
from a l t a r s , and we had t o place those s t a t u e s back.
The hue and cry must have been tremendous from the people.
Once he called m
e back and said, "Better come down before they
w i l l lynch you!" W
e did t r y a couple of times. But I have t o
say t h a t many people see the church a s a continuation of t h e
gods of one time; there is no change at a l l . A good p a r t i s
paganism dressed up i n Christian dress, t h a t ' s a l l i t is.
So true, so true. Y e s , they have t h e i r devotions. And r e a l l y
t h a t ' s what t h e Council t r i e d t o do, was t o bring us back t o
our c e n t r a l devotion, which is the Eucharist, but i t ' s awfully
hard going!
W e l l , I believe there i s another point t o consider from a
philosophical point of view, t h a t a f t e r a l l it is the people's
l i v e s which a r e important, and i f t h a t i s what makes them
happier or l i v e b e t t e r , well, I can't say anything against i t ,
can I ?
No.
Benvenuto: 	 I n m
y last, as I mentioned, s a b b a t i c a l leave which I went 

through t h e "Magna Grecial'--Sicily, Greece, Crete, I t a l y , 

Sardinia, and various p a r t s of Italy--I did have a point i n 

mind. M
y main idea was t o f i n d out t h e instrument by which 

t h e artist gave t o humanity these famous and these g r e a t 

masterpieces, f o r t h e r e i s not a t e c h n i c a l museum, nor recorded 

h i s t o r y of t h e t o o l s of them. 

So I went through a l l these museum, and t h e question was,
"Do you have marble-carving instruments from any e r a , any
century?"
They s a i d , "No, we have not a t e c h n i c a l museum dealing on
t h e subject." Directors of museum, and curators, have a limited
notion and doubtful t e c h n i c a l experience, any expertise, i n
depth. I gathered a wealth of information, which should be
developed t o its f u l l p o t e n t i a l .
W e have t o bear i n mind t h a t i t ' s through t h e forging of t h e
t o o l s t h a t many things became important t o sculpture, and many
things became important t o t h e c u l t u r e , f o r i f they d i d n ' t know
how t o forge, they d i d n ' t know how t o c a s t , they wouldn 't even
be a b l e t o implement t h e i d e a s they had. So my quest was t o f i n d
out t h e p a r t i c u l a r s .
I n the same t i m e I did observe how paganism became woven
with C h r i s t i a n i t y a t every l e v e l . From t h e seventh century
before C h r i s t , t h e g r e a t c l a s s i c a l b a s i l i c a were developed, and
i n t h e second century a f t e r C h r i s t these became Christian
b a s i l i c a . They had incorporated t h e columns, a r c h i t e c t u a l
elments, so t h e s t r u c t u r e of t h e previous temple was n o t g r e a t l y
changed. The idea was new, but t h e d r e s s was old.
And i t was i n t e r e s t i n g t o see t h a t t h i s concept is n o t
changed today. When last time I was i n Mexico, and I saw t h e
many and g r e a t a r c h i t e c t u a l s t r u c t u r e s of Mexican Mayan periods
transformed i n Christian b a s i l i c a , p a r t Christian, p a r t pagan
temples, I was astounded. I never r e a l i z e d t h a t t h i s was done
before i n such a l a r g e s c a l e . The Christian established t h e
fashion a f t e r t h e Roman. They d i d it i n t h e f i f t e e n t h century.
They changed b e a u t i f u l Romanesque churches i n t o t h e Baroque
s t y l e churches, and so f o r t h . This i s a continuous evolving
d r i v e of humanity, and probably t h a t ' s why i t is.
DuCasse: 	 Why it keeps a l i v e .
Benvenuto: 	 You can c e r t a i n l y say t h a t keeps t h a t alive! It's true. O r
keeps us a l i v e . I t h i n k we have covered enough f o r your
interview? You have s p e c i a l questions?
DuCasse:
Benvenuto:
DuCass e:
Benvenuto: 

DuCasse: 

Benvenuto: 

DuCasse: 

Benvenuto: 

DuCasse: 

Benvenuto: 

One thing I would l i k e t o ask you. Do you remember, other than
Mario Ciampi, other a r c h i t e c t s who you f e l t were more receptive
of a contemporary a r t form?
Yes. One very interested architect, even i f he did not a t l e a s t
follow the general idea of innovation, was Mr. [Vincent] Raney.
Raney was very much interested i n the renewal of the architec-
t u r a l space. H i s personal life--as I heard a t the time, he was
a p i l o t before, s o he was t h e kind of man, a progressive man i n
t h a t sense, he did t h a t . I don't know i f he was forced during
the war, o r what he did on h i s own, but he was a man which liked
the peace, liked the new concept, so he was receptive.
Another one which was a l s o very receptive and did something
about was Henry Chescoe. He was very interested i n fusing
t r a d i t i o n a l and contemporary, was a very open man insofar it
was architecture and l i t u r g i c a l artworks. A t one time I worked
with him and with Monsignor Kennedy of St. Raymond's, Menlo Park,
on t h e church, and I believe I did a couple of l i t u r g i c a l elements,
the one i n f r o n t of the church.
How very good. I often pass i t because I work down there.
Yes, they a r e s t i l l up. And I was surprised, f o r t h e material i s
not a good material.
These a r e the two most involved persons insofar a s architec-
t u r e o r l i t u r g i c a l works. Others were interested, but they didn't
have a chance. MarioGaidanowanted t o , but never had t h e chance;
f o r one reason o r another he didn't pursue the idea; he had a few
o r i g i n a l ideas. And I could mention others.
Do you remember Paul Dachauer, who was i n our group?
Sure. Paul Dachauer did a few, with Tony Perrinello. They did
St. Anthony's.
Yes, they did the.reconstruction of St. Anthony's.
They l e f t only t h e old pulpit, which i s very nice, and the gate-
way, which i s nice. And then they did the complete St. Anthony's
Church--whose pastor is a good friend of mine by the way, Father
[Effrem] T r e t t e l . He's a very i n t e r e s t i n g man, he's a poet, he's
a writer. He has a program--radio Christian program.
Is t h a t an I t a l i a n name?
Yes. H e is I t a l i a n , but the name might be Slavonic, f o r he
was born i n t h e border town of Trieste.
Benvenuto: He was a person very much involved i n l i t u r g i c a l ideas and also
founded a few programs f o r the people, insofar a s the mass.
For people who cannot get out of t h e house on the Sunday, he
has a special mass. He's a very i n t e r e s t i n g person, but I know
him a s a person, a s an a r t i s t , a s a friend. I ' m q u i t e sure I ' m
not giving you what is due t o him. I ' m sure I ' m forgetting
some which a r e more important than us. But t h a t is it, a t t h i s
time, a t t h i s moment. Another time maybe somebody e l s e w i l l
come up again.
DuCasse: Right. Well, how do you f e e l about t h e need f o r a r t i n the
Church today? You know, f o r a while, a f t e r the Council, i t s o r t
of was shelved, but do you f e e l t h a t i t ' s beginning t o have more
of a place i n the Church?
Benvenuto: I believe the need f o r a r t i s f e l t , and there a r e places and
countries which t h i s needs is f e l t stronger than others. I
believe the problem now i s t h i s general economical s i t u a t i o n has
kind of s t i f l e d everyone's aspiration. I know of persons and
pastors which would l i k e t o use a r t , but they cannot afford it.
Other pastors buy commercially produced works, pseudo a r t from
catalogues, which i n the long run cost a s much a s an "original."
I f they find the r i g h t a r t i s t , they can have the work they wish.
But generally speaking i t seems t o me, and I do not know i f
I am aware of a l l the points, t h a t now i s a very, very sleeping
siutation. There a r e no sparks. There i s no movement which
indicates t h a t the i n t e r e s t is growing. There might be sparks,
but they a r e under t h e ashes, they a r e not producing flames, i t
seems t o me. I do not hear of special exhibition i n the country.
Once i n a while you have some exhibitions which indicate t h a t
these sparks a r e there, but they a r e very tenuous and it seems
t o m
e not very spread around. Maybe you can t e l l me where they
are. Maybe you know more.
DuCasse: No, I have not discovered anything of t h a t kind e i t h e r , and
certainly nothing l i k e the exhibit which we had i n 1952 a t
the de Young Museum, which was given the s t a t u s of a f i n e
exhibit with a great deal of attention, good critiques,the
whole thing.
Benvenuto: Probably we a r e missing the point, but I f o r one f e e l t h a t
unless the clergy shows more i n t e r e s t i t ' s very hard f o r the
a r t i s t s alone t o carry t h i s concept. They must show i n t e r e s t ,
and a s I said before they must come forward and t r y t o produce
some kind of statement i n order t o a t t r a c t the a r t i s t s , and
involve the a r t s i n general.
DuCasse: Right, r i g h t .
Benvenuto: And I do know t h a t i f not i n t h i s country, then i n other
countries;they a r e involved i n a s o c i a l b a t t l e , which i s a s
great o r greater a c a l l than the a r t s per se. But t h a t , a s
f a r a s I ' m concerned, is not s u f f i c i e n t t o not show t h e i r
i n t e r e s t i n contemporary a r t trends.
DuCasse: I think we have t h a t same problem here i n t h i s country i n t h e
Church. I think theyl.re struggling t o hold onto t h e i r people,
and t h a t is such a struggle, t h a t is something s o important t o
them, t h a t they a r e forgetting some of the other aspects, which
could be very important too. But there a r e p r i o r i t i e s i n every-
thing, alack and alas.
Well, I think you've given us some very i n t e r e s t i n g insights.
You had a very personal p a r t t o play i n a l l t h a t .
Benvenuto: Well, I ' m glad t h a t you did these h i s t o r i c a l interview f o r the
General Library, which might be useful t o other people i n the
future, and might prove me wrong insofar a s the clergy a t t i t u d e .
With t h i s I end the interview!
DuCasse: [laughing] Very good! Thank you so very much, Elio.
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Emily Michels
MEMORIES O
F FATHER MEEHAN
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1981 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Emily Michels
INTERVIEW HISTORY
MEMORIES OF FATHER MEEHAN
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Emily Michels was one of the f i n e s t a r t teachers a t high school l e v e l
i n San Francisco. She taught a t Mission High School f o r thirty-nine years.
Many future p r i e s t s , several t h a t would have an influence on l i t u r g i c a l
a r t i n one way o r another, passed through her classroom and enjoyed her
inspiring influence.
She had an unerring i n s t i n c t f o r recognizing hidden o r l a t e n t a r t i s t i c
t a l e n t i n a student. She worked hard t o develop and encourage such t a l e n t
whenever possible. Those students who benefited by her excellent training
and encouragement t o go on with i t a s a life-work o r an avocation were
always g r a t e f u l t o her, and gave her the c r e d i t due her with gratitude
and friendship. Among her students was Rev. Terrance O'Connor, S.J.,
sculptor and teacher and member of the Catholic A r t Forum.
Emily was one of the f i r s t a r t i s t s t o join the Catholic A r t Forum,
and she was one of its most enthusiastic and loyal members t o i t s end.
Her contribution a s a teacher of a r t was invaluable i n t h a t area of i t s
aims which was education. This, combined with her knowledge of a r t i n
general and her f a i t h and i n t e r e s t i n contemporary a r t i n t h e Church, was
reason enough t o interview her.
Ruth Cravath teamed up with me t o do the interview i n Emily's home
out near San Francisco City College. Ruth and Emily had been life-long
friends and Ruth had been the one t o have invited Emily t o j o i n the Catholic
A r t Forum. Even though Emily was not able t o get about because of a lengthy
period of ill health, she was s t i l l happy t o have u s come t o her, and t o
share t e a and delicious goodies a f t e r we had taped our interview. It was
an enjoyable reunion of old friends and fellow members of the Catholic A r t
Forum, and most important, Emily was able t o give information about Father
Meehan and others t o round out the background f o r the r e s t of the project.
[Note: In f i l l i n g out t h e biographical information form requested o:f
interviewees by the Regional Oral History Office, Emily Michels offered some
comments about her own work.] She was an architectural s c a l e model maker
i n the o f f i c e of Willis Polk, and other a r c h i t e c t s a f t e r h i s death. She
did a r c h i t e c t u r a l ornamental sculpture, such a s t h e faqade of the Water
Department Building on Mason St., San Francisco, figures over the Post
S t r e e t entrance of the Crocker National Bank, Montgomery and Post Streets,
figures f o r the forestry department panorama and models f o r heads of wax
and papier-michg mannequins. She taught a r t s and c r a f t s a t Mission High
School f o r f o r t y years, and a t senior centers. She was interested i n
modeling i n clay, pottery, painting, p l a s t i c , c r a f t s , screen printing,
i l l u s t r a t i o n . She prepared and coached students t o win f r e e scholarships
t o the California School of Fine A r t s . She was a l s o interested i n
decorating t a b l e s f o r teachers and church lunches, dinners, banquets,
et cetera.
She says about l i t u r g i c a l a r t s , "I had intended t o produce figures
and r e l i e f s i n t e r r a c o t t a f o r the church upon m
y retirement, but, when I
saw t h e kind of monstrosities i n scrap metal and t h e b r u t a l faces of some
statuary being i n s t a l l e d i n some churches, I quit. I believe t h a t a r t
should i n s p i r e beauty, peace. 'The t r a n q u i l i t y of order is peace. ' A l o t
of contemporary confusion and chaos is expressed i n what we c a l l contem-
porary a r t . I wonder i f i t h a s an inspiring place i n the church?"
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office iii University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAI, INFORMATION
(please p r i n t o r w r i t e clearly) .
-
Your f u l l name
Date of b i r t h Place of b i r t
Father's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Mother's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Where did you grow up ?
/ /
Present community J-,&.-L,(> ~~
7
-22
MEMORIES O
F FATHER M
E
E
H
A
N
[Interview date: May 27, 19811
DuCasse: Emily, you knew Father John Meehan before our exhibit t h a t
formed i n 1952.
was
Michels: Oh, yes, sure.
DuCasse: What I would l i k e t o ask you is when you f i r s t knew Father Meehan
and i n what relationship did you know him?
Michels: He was i n a church on E l l i s S t r e e t [San Francisco];
remember the name. Some friends introduced me a s a
artist.
I don't
teacher and
DuCasse: Do you remember about what period t h a t was, what year maybe?
Michels: Oh, I don't know. It must have been the l a t e twenties.
Then, Father Meehan was doing some artwork, and of course he
wanted t o show i t t o me, and I was interested i n seeing h i s work.
He did carving too.
DuCasse: Oh, I didn't know that.
o r a ciborium.
You mentioned something about a chalice
Michels: No, he carved a beautiful crucifix. And I was surprised; I
thought, m
y goodness, he ought t o be an artist. You know, he
should be i n the a r t business because the figure, the corpus,
w a s beautifully done. I c l a s s i f i e d him more as an a r t i s t than a
p r i e s t . [laughter] He showed me many of h i s things. He
designed h i s own chalice t h a t he used when he was ordained, and
t h a t was r e a l l y a beautiful thing. I f I ' m not mistaken, he had
t h a t chalice made i n Belgium.
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t sounds reasonable because I know that Father Juan
[Oronoz], who was s o r t of a protggg of h i s , had h i s made i n
Belgium too.
Michels: I ' m almost sure i t was done i n Belgium. Then, he designed other
chalices f o r other people. W
e had these students a t our school
[Mission High School] who became p r i e s t s . There was Father
Terrence O'Connor [ l a t e r a member of the Catholic A r t Forum].
DuCasse: Do you remember Father Meehan's discussion about h i s i n t e r e s t
the l i t u r g i c a l a r t s movement a s a movement?
i n
Michels: Not too much. He spoke of collecting things f o r a show, but I
wasn't p a r t i c u l a r l y interested. I w a s too busy a t t h a t time, you
see. I was s t i l l teaching.
But anyway, he mentioned something about collecting things
f o r an exhibit, and he mentioned Charlton Fortune, and the things
she was doing: she was doing some embroidery and designing
candelabras and things l i k e t h a t f o r the altar.
DuCasse: She founded the Monterey Guild down i n Monterey, and t h a t ' s where
she w a s working. And I know t h a t she and Father Meehan worked
very closely together, and there was an exhibit, p r i o r t o ours,
Ruth, a t t h e de Young Museum.
Michels: Wasn't t h a t something with t h a t magazine they had?
DuCasse: Oh, the ~ i t u r ~ i c a l
A r t s Magazine?
Michels: Yes, i t was Liturgical A r t s ;
the Catholic A r t Forum.
t h a t was what it was under, it wasn't
DuCasse: No, t h a t was l a t e r .
Michels: And i t seems a s though t h i s Charlton Fortune was q u i t e busy doing
things. She did a number of things down i n Camel and P a c i f i c
Grove and she designed the things f o r t h e Dominican College chapel
i n San Rafael. She painted, too, she did the backdrop and, you
know, t h e f r o n t of the a l t a r . What do they c a l l those?
DuCasse: It's an antependia; antependium, Latin.
Michels: But, see, he [Meehan] was getting h i s -
own things, he w a s g e t t i n g
things together from d i f f e r e n t people f o r collecting, and he
designed a b e a u t i f u l monstrance f o r down there at Vallombrosa.
( I wonder where t h a t i s . ) And then he i n s t a l l e d stations. I
don't think he made them, but he got the pictures f o r those l i t t l e
s t a t i o n s of the cross, and they were beautiful things. But, of
course, now they've changed t h a t .
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t was the old chapel then.
and there're no s t a t i o n s and such.
See, they have the new chapel
Well, Emily, we'd l i k e t o hear anything you can remember
about your participation i n the Catholic A r t Forum, unless you
can think of anything more about Father Meehan t h a t you want t o
add. Was there anything more you wanted t o add about h i s work?
Cravath: Do you have any anecdotes about Father Meehan?
DuCasse: I bet you have plenty of those, because he and Charlton Fortune
were a great p a i r , and they used t o p u l l the legs of the other
clergy.
Michels: Yes, the more conservative~clergydidn't l i k e what Charlton did.
Cravath: Father Meehan was her staunch defender.
Michels: He saw the a r t i n her work, but, you see, some of those people
thought it was kind of affected. N
o
w it seems conservative.
People have gotten used t o it. A t t h a t time it was kind of bold
not t o have the other, kind of lacy things. She seems t o have
stopped t h a t decoration of crocheting and k n i t t i n g and lacy s t u f f .
In f a c t they were using applique on f e l t . I know I sent some
f e l t out t o her cousin i n Germany; they didn't have material
around the time of t h e war, you know, o r something l i k e t h a t ,
and so they were using f e l t on the a l t a r s , f e l t sheets.
DuCasse: That's unusual.
Michels: They probably put the white neck and some white cloths on top.
I've noticed here i n some of t h e churches they had f e l t .
I was going t o say about what he was interested i n , and I
think he [Father Meehan] was influenced by Charlton Fortune with
h i s vestments. He had the most wonderful collection of vestments,
and they were beautiful. To watch him say Mass, he was just--.
And you saw the way he manipulated the folds and everything, you
thought he was a M r . Reagan a s an actor. [laughter] Really, you
know, really. He knew j u s t how t o manipulate those things. He
did a beautiful job.
He had some of the s i s t e r s down i n Mission San Jose Convent--
I can't remember the name of the s i s t e r down there, one of the
older s i s t e r s helped t o make some. Of course, he directed them,
he designed and directed them. And then, l a t e r on, the l a s t
collection I saw, he had some copes and some of these--what do
they c a l l those, you know, the scarves?
DuCasse: The s t o l e , which i s the important thing, yes.
t h a t , whether they have a vestment o r not.
They have t o have
Michels: Well, anyway, he had those, and oh, m
y goodness, those vestments,
you never saw anything l i k e them. They were a l l s i l k . And they
were made i n Japan.
DuCasse: Were they elaborate a s f a r a s design?
Michels: No, not elaborate, no, no. One of them was something with a design
l i k e a sword down the back and some kind of a heart. It was l i k e
a cross, and the v e r t i c a l thing was r e a l l y a sword. That's the
one he's buried in. He was very fond of that one. Oh, but he had
some beautiful things, beautiful.
DuCasse: Well, i t would be i n t e r e s t i n g t o know where those are.
Michels: Then Father Meehan was directed t o design and build some kind of
a new church i n e a s t Palo Alto. He couldn't get the money f o r a
church, so he thought he'd g e t the h a l l and use that a s a church
f i r s t and then build the other church. Well, he had the h a l l and
everything went fine-and then you ought t o see t h e beautiful
statues t h a t he imported from France! They were beauties. Not
exactly l i k e the ones up there a t San Rafael, you know, they're
r e a l l y nice. But they remind m
e of some of t h e things [Antoine]
Bourdelle did.
These that he brought over r e a l l y were beautiful i n design,
beautiful, no painting, you know, j u s t wood carving. Beautiful
things. And you can see a face; i t ' s not one of these masks t h a t
look l i k e they want t o scare the l i t t l e kids. [laughter] Oh
r e a l l y , some of these things a r e awful.
Well, anyway, he got t h a t done. Then they directed him, o r
maybe i t was him, I don't know, but he had t o have a new rectory.
So he designed and b u i l t the rectory and lived i n d i f f e r e n t
houses i n the neighborhood, u n t i l t h a t was ready. And the poor
man, he was going t o move i n a c e r t a i n week, and he died the week
before. He never got i n t o it.
When Father Meehan was doing these vestments I was
you know, and I got yards and yards of t h i s s i l k t h a t ' s
p l a i n weave?
i n t e r e s t e d ,
j u s t a
DuCasse: Pongee?
Michels: Pongee, yes, but the r e a l heavy kind. And I got yards and yards
of t h a t white s t u f f and then I got the most beautiful emerald
green brocade down a t Chinatown. You know, we used t o get them
Michels : 	f o r a couple of d o l l a r s a yard. And I brought a couple of those
things down, I don't remember how much or what, but t h a t ,
particularly the green brocade stuck i n my mind. I wanted t o
make a dress out of it! [laughter] I thought maybe he could
use i t a s a l i n i n g o r something. Well, anyway, I don't think
he ever got it. As I say, he moved from house t o house. And
then when he was sick, I guess nobody knew where anything was.
I hope whoever had i t would give it t o that s i s t e r and l e t her
make use of i t f o r somebody.
DuCasse: 	 I could inquire of those s i s t e r s i n San Jose, i f they remember
some of the work t h a t they did f o r him. There was a nun who was
an a r t i s t .
Michels : 	
Oh, yes, t h a t ' s right. That was the younger one.
DuCasse: 	 Yes. She showed some of her work t o the A r t Forum.
Michels : 	
But that was one t h a t was a l i t t l e younger, and I think the other
one--maybe she wasn't doing things anymore.
DuCasse: 	
She might not have been doing them anymore. But t h a t ' s a good
suggestion, because they a l s o might be able t o give us some
information.
Michels : 	
I imagine t h a t some of those vestments may have been on exhibit
too.
DuCasse: 	 I ' m sure they were. I ' m sure they must have been on exhibit a t
t h a t f i r s t exhibit because I don't think we had vestments i n our
show, did we, Ruth?
Cravath: 	 I think, yes, we had a few.
DuCasse: 	 Did we have some? I brought one of my catalogues. I'll bring
t h a t out when t h i s half-hour of the tape stops, and we'll take
a l i t t l e breather.
Michel s: 	
Is t h i s a l l going on [reference t o the tape]?
DuCasse : 	It's a l l going on; i t ' s gotten every word you said.
Michels : 	
Heavens !
DuCasse : 	
Well, Emily, many of the things you told us a r e wonderful because
I have completely forgotten the extent of h i s t a l e n t s and of the
kind of work t h a t Father Meehan did.
Michels: 	 He did some painting, too, and was very good a t it.
-
.
DuCasse: 	 I remember going t o a meeting i n someone's home i n San Francisco
out i n t h e Western Addition, a l e c t u r e by Father Meehan about
l i t u r g i c a l a r t . Do you, by any chance, remember anything about
t h a t , because I was wondering i f you might have been t h e r e too.
Michels: 	 Well, no, I don't remember. But, you see, he gave so many
lectures. He lectured on the radio every week; he gave a
l e c t u r e t h a t was broadcast from, I think, t h e San Jose-Palo
Alto area. It was a t a l k , a sermon, I ' d say, every Sunday,
and I would compare him t o Bishop [Fulton J.] Sheen. He was
a wonderful speaker. Another one I compared him t o was t h a t
Father Coughlin.
Father Meehan, he j u s t h i t things r i g h t on the n a i l . Some
of them r e a l l y could crawl i f they would only hear what -
he said.
Really. But, you know, it wasn't c r i t i c i s m i n any way, i t j u s t
kind of made them think a l i t t l e b i t , made them a l i t t l e aware
of some of the things t h a t they're doing t h a t a r e not q u i t e what
they should be.
DuCasse: 	 He was very outspoken.
Michels: 	 Oh, and these l e c t u r e s surely were wingdings.
[tape interruption] The f i r s t thing I knew, I was invited
t o Ruth's [Cravath] studio, down there on Montgomery. It w a s
[Ralph] Stackpole's studio, and so, I thought, t h a t ' s kind of
fun, it'll be a studio party o r something. When I came i n there
and saw a l l the l a d i e s around, I thought, it looks l i k e a meeting.
Who is the president? You were [ t o Cravath], weren't you?
Cravath: 	 I was t h e l a s t one.
DuCasse: 	 I was the f i r s t president of the Catholic A r t Forum, and then
Stephanie Alioto [now Wilhelm] was president.
Michels: 	 Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t . Well, anyway, I saw a l l these friends, and
I thought, oh, boy, t h i s is r e a l l y nice t o be among a l l these
people. Then they were speaking of t h i s a r t forum, and we had
the meeting and then I think we selected o r voted f o r a
president.
DuCasse: 	 Could be so. Maybe a t t h a t meeting.
DarrellDally was one of the founders. In f a c t , Darrell
Father Monihan had the incipient idea, and they got in touch
with a group of us l i k e l y a r t i s t s and people interested i n the
idea. They got us together, and t h a t ' s how it was formed.
Michels: Did Father Meehan ever
I don't remember.
come t o one of those gatherings or meetings?
DuCasse: I don't believe t h a t he was able t o do it. I .think t h a t ' s
he was so ill, because t h i s was i n t h e f i f t i e s , i n 1953.
when
Michels: And then Father Vodusek was a member.
1
DuCasse: Yes, he was our p r i e s t l y director.
two of them, yes.
So was Father Monihan, the
Michels: And
b i t
then they worked with the Liturgical A r t s Magazine quite
t h a t time, d i d n ' t they?
a
DuCasse: Maurice Lavanoux came out and gave a t a l k , I believe, and then
the Junipero Serra Shop, of course, with Ethel Souza, very much
supported i t , and we had programs.
I found t h i s among m
y things. Here's a postcard [she reads
from i t ] : "The Catholic A r t Forum and t h e Junipero Serra Shop
i n v i t e you t o hear Image and Indifference, a j o i n t l e c t u r e by
Frank Kazmarcik and Robert Rambusch." They were from New York,
the big church decorators. "June 30, 1957."
Michels: It was t h a t l a t e ?
DuCasse: Yes.
You know, Emily, we want t o get everybody t h a t we can while
they're s t i l l i n the area o r with us, you know, so t h a t we can
get a s much background. This is a study not only of the Catholic
A r t Forum o r of the Junipero Serra Shop, but the whole picture
of t h e l i t u r g i c a l a r t movement on the West Coast.
Michels: Well, the beginning was the hardest. You remember we had t h a t
show and we were trying t o put a tabernacle--where was it we
wanted t o put that tabernacle?
Cravath: Which show a r e you talking about, Emily?
Michels: I don't remember what show t h a t was.
DuCasse: Was t h i s the show t h a t Father Meehan organized a t the de Young
Museum?
Michels: I don't know. M
y memory's kind of funny there. Anyway, we wanted
t o put the tabernacle i n the back someplace, I've forgotten, o r
off t o the side, o r have t h e a l t a r the way i t i s now, o r something
t h a t is acceptable r i g h t now and I've gotten so used t o i t now
Michels : t h a t I don't think about it. You see, it was breaking t h e
t r a d i t i o n of having the tabernacle i n t h e a l t a r against the wall.
W
e wanted t o get t h e tabernacle -
out of the a l t a r and put i t on
a s i d e o r somewhere, t o have i t separate from the a l t a r .
And we asked Father Maher. And Father Maher didn't
but he j u s t d i d n ' t want t o approve.
say no,
DuCasse : When we went t o him about something t o do with our exhibit,
was very d i f f i c u l t .
he
Cravath: W
e wanted t o have Fran Moyer's s t a t i o n s and those marvelous
things and Elah Hale Hays's c r u c i f i x and a l l t h a t wonderful
s t u f f . It was thumbs down.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, but t h a t was probably Father Meehan toor he d i d n ' t l i k e t h a t
very much.
Do you remember Monsignor Collins? The one t h a t wrote the
book on l i t u r g i c a l procedures and everything.
Michels : 	
Collins, yes! He was the one t h a t designed and planned St.
Cecilia's. Oh, yes, he was q u i t e conservative.
DuCasse : 	
He was the l i t u r g y man, not a r t particularly, but the l i t u r g y
a s such.
Michels : 	
He was the pastor of St. C e c i l i a ' s f o r q u i t e awhile.
DuCasse: 	 Emily, you're bringing up the f a c t t h a t Father Meehan did so many
d i f f e r e n t things. I had forgotten t h a t he had designed chalices
and chasubles and a l l of that.
Michels : 	
He designed t h a t chalice t h a t Mr. Tiessielinck made f o r Father
Terrence O'Connor. Tiessielinck did the metal work, and Father
Meehan supplied the design. It was very nice, a beautiful one.
I asked him, "Now i t ' s i n the J e s u i t Order, where's it going?"
"Well, i t stays there."
And I said, "Well, suppose you go someplace else?"
"It s t a y s there." [laughter]
DuCasse : 	
That's r i g h t , exactly. No, they never have any possessions.
Well, I s m glad t o know t h a t Father Terrance O'Connor was
connected with Father Meehan. I w i l l write t o him and ask him
i f he won't give us some information.
Do you have anything t o ask Emily, Ruth?
Cravath: No. Emily,
hoped.
I ' m r e a l l y impressed, you remember more than I even
DuCasse: I always think of Father Meehan as being the very beginning of
i t , here, he and E f f i e Fortune.
Cravath: And Emily.
DuCasse: And so Emily knowing him and remember t h a t p a r t of
helpful .
it is very
Michels: He must have been working there a t t h a t t i m e . I knew he was
getting things together and he was assembling things, but t h a t ' s
a l l kind of foggy i t ' s so long ago.
Cravath: I remember Father Meehan so many times talking about E f f i e
Fortune. He j u s t adored her.
Michels: Oh, yes.
Cravath: She said t o m
e a s p r i e s t s t h a t a l l t h e i r
mouths. [laughter]
t a s t e w a s i n t h e i r
Michels: She had a wonderful sense of defying people, defying the old,
tradit.iona1 ways. She knew what she always wanted and she knew
what she was going t o do.
DuCasse: True. And she was a contemporary a r t i s t and she f e l t t h a t .
contemporary a r t should be i n t h e church. And, of course, t h a t
was Father Meehan's idea also. They were conservative about i t
i n a way, but they were contemporary.
Michels: Well, he t r i e d t o do a l i t t l e changing there, very slowly, l i k e
t h a t one old church, St. Aloysius down there i n Palo Alto on
E l Camino Real. When he f i r s t went down there, i t was a simple
country church. And by the time he was there a l i t t l e while, we
had new figures there, beautiful. The hangings, the a l t a r is
changed, t h e whole thing was changed.
Cravath: Is t h a t the church i n Woodside?
Michels: The Woodside was a charming l i t t l e chapel.
Cravath: Well, Dorothy [Pucinelli Cravath] did the Madonna and the grotto,
or whatever you c a l l it. She called it t h e Madonna of the Wayside.
Michels: Well, he overhauled t h a t church.
change it.
Wherever he went, he t r i e d t o
Michels: When I was i n I t a l y I went t o Alinari, i n Florence, and I got
from him a Madonna of the Wayside, a great big painting. I
thought t h a t whoever is down there could put t h a t someplace i n
the church because Father Meehan liked t h a t very much. I
brought i t down t o t h a t p r i e s t , and I gave i t t o whoever he was.
I don't know what happened t o i t , now. You know, I haven't been
going down there.
DuCasse: I'll have t o go by there and see it sometime.
Michels: He may have it i n h i s home, but I would have liked t o have
it i n the church. The Madonna outside is not exactly the
Madonna of the Wayside.
seen
Of course, you know how the I t a l i a n s did, they always put
crowns on and hung jewelry around. Then when you come r i g h t down
t o it, the poor picture is a l l covered. But then they're happy
with t h a t kind of thing. One place I saw they had nothing but
some kind of l i t t l e hearts a l l over the wall, you couldn't see
anything.
Well, a r e we finished here now?
DuCasse: I think t h a t i f there's nothing more t h a t you want t o t e l l us,
I think maybe we can end.
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist : Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancrof t Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Reltgious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francis-co Bay Area, 1946-1968
Monsignor Robert Brennan
MEMORIES O
F EFFIE FORTUNE
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- M o n s i g n o r R o b e r t B r e n n a n
INTERVIEW HISTORY
MEMORIES OF EFFIE FORTUNE
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Though the period of time for our o r a l history record of the renaissance
of l i t u r g i c a l a r t s i n the Bay Area begins with 1946, there would not have
been even t h a t beginning were it not f o r the t r u e pioneer of the movement,
Euphemia Charlton Fortune, founder of the Monterey Guild of Liturgical A r t s
i n the mid-twenties.
Unfortunately f o r us, Charlton Fortune departed t h i s world a few years 

ago. What a l o s s t h i s i s f o r our project, because she was remarkably and 

s p i r i t e d l y a r t i c u l a t e about her cause: the best of a r t by l i v e a r t i s t s i n 

the service of the Church. 

Charlton Fortune's knowledge, experience, and enthusiasm t o spread the
word were enthralling t o many. I was fortunate t o have been one of t h e
many i n t h e early t h i r t i e s when I m e t her and heard her lecture several
times. I myself was beginning m
y career a s a l i t u r g i c a l a r t i s t and she
was the example par excellance.
Fortunately f o r p o s t e r i t y , one of her l i s t e n e r s was indeed a "convert"
f o r l i f e . Monsignor Robert Brennan f i r s t came i n contact with Charlton
Fortune and her dynamic message a s a young seminarian. The friendship
which began a t t h a t time continued on throughout "Effie's" lifetime.
Monsignor Brennan made it h i s avocation t o be the preserver and chronicler
of Charlton Fortune's l i f e and work. H e i s a t work on completing--
hopefully, f o r publication--a biography of t h i s great woman's remarkable
l i f e and work a s a l i t u r g i c a l a r t i s t and pioneer i n the f i e l d .
While he was v i s i t i n g i n the Bay Area recently, Monsignor Brennan
kindly consented t o give us an interview, t o f i l l i n f o r our project t h e
most important high points of Charlton Fortune's career a s founder and
director of the Monterey Guild of Liturgical A r t s .
H i s thoughts a r e indeed most welcome and appropriate f o r our project,
o r any study of l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n California, a s w e l l a s other p a r t s of the
United States. W
e a r e most g r a t e f u l f o r Monsignor Brennan's generous
sharing of h i s knowledge of so important a t r u e beginning of l i t u r g i c a l a r t
i n the Bay Area. H i s book w i l l carry further an important story t h a t
should be told and received by so many who could not know of i t i n any other
way.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional O r a l History Office ii
Room 486
The Bancrof t Library
University of C a l i f o r n i a
Berkeley, C a l i f o r n i a 94720
Your f u l l name
A
Date of b i r t h & 1
% / Y d 8
Place of b i r t h 4
6
.
F a t h e r ' s f u l l name 622O ~ L
%@+-,
4
,
.
F a t h e r ' s p l a c e of b i r t h A?-
Mother's f u l l name - 0
-
Mother's p l a c e of b i r t h PA-
%-, b
J
?
L
Where d i d you grow up? L43+L,
Employment
MEMORIES O
F EFFIE FORTUNE
[Interview date: September 22, 19831
DuCasse: 	 W
e a r e conducting t h i s interview i n the Residence Hall a t College
of the Holy Names i n Oakland. Monsignor Robert Brennan was a
very good friend of Charlton Fortune, has written a book about
her and her work, and I know t h a t h e ' s going t o be able t o f i l l
i n a great d e a l of background for us f o r our project.
Monsignor, we were speaking a l i t t l e b i t before we started
t h i s about when you f i r s t got t o know E f f i e Fortune, and so I ' m
going t o l e t you take it from there, i f you w i l l please.
Brennan: 	 I entered the seminary a t Menlo Park i n 1926, a t a time when
i n t e r e s t i n l i t u r g i c a l a r t was j u s t commencing on a general basis.
There were magazines from France t h a t were available a t the time,
especially the Artisan Liturgique that had j u s t commenced t o be
published and l a t e r on, of course, the Liturgical A r t s i n the
United States. A t the time i n San Francisco there were two
p r i e s t s who were very close t o the seminary. Father John Meehan
came t o u s largely because of h i s voice. He would give some
concerts t o us. And Father--[tries t o remember name of second
p r i e s t ] . He was the d i r e c t o r of music i n the archdiocese. While
he did not give us any lectures, y e t the momentum of i n t e r e s t i n
l i t u r g i c a l a r t was carried on by i n t e r e s t i n music more than by
anything e l s e .
One evening Father John Meehan announced t h a t he would
introduce a person who was commencing a new project i n the
country, a M i s s Charlton Fortune of Monterey. She gave us t h i s
i n i t i a l l e c t u r e on the general principles of sacred a r t , espec-
i a l l y l i t u r g i c a l a r t , and from t h a t moment on, it seemed l i k e
we became friends. I spoke t o her a f t e r the l e c t u r e because of
my own personal i n t e r e s t i n the subject, but the i n i t i a l conver-
sation grew i n t o a r e a l friendship within a year o r so, and I
frequently v i s i t e d her a s a student during vacation a t her
studio i n Monterey.
DuCasse: 	 About what period would t h i s have been, Monsignor? Would t h i s 

have been i n the twenties o r the t h i r t i e s ? 

Brennan: 	 This would have been i n the twenties. I was ordained i n 1932.
So i t would have been between, say, 1927 and 1932. And i t was
a t the time when she was j u s t commencing her work with the
Monterey Guild. Not t h a t she entered very much i n t o d e t a i l with
us, because we were j u s t youngsters you might say, and completely
sophomoric about the whole s t r u c t u r e of l i t u r g i c a l a r t , but
nevertheless she greeted us very kindly and introduced us t o some
of the mysteries of the situation.
Then, a f t e r ordination, our friendship continued. It was
extended of course t o other members of my c l a s s , i n p a r t i c u l a r
the future bishop of Reno and archbishop of Portland, Robert
Dwyer, a s well a s Monsignor Alvin Wagner of St. Joseph's i n
Alameda.
It was a very easy type of friendship, not t h a t we were
introduced t o the a r t colony i n any sense of the word o r even t o
other members of the Monterey Guild. These people were kept a t a,
I presume, professional distance because her friendship with us
was on a d i f f e r e n t l e v e l with t h a t of other persons, and w e
recognized t h a t and j u s t took it f o r granted.
I n a f t e r years, when she had transferred the Monterey Guild
from Monterey t o the East and then t o the Middle West, and f i n a l l y
i n her days of retirement, our friendship became so firm t h a t I
f e l t t h a t I was i n a position t o give a d e f i n i t i v e biography
concerning her. I had occasion tomeether family i n l a t e r years,
not only here i n t h i s country but i n England and i n Scotland, and
I met one p a r t i c u l a r friend of schoolyear days i n Scotland, a
woman who was l i v i n g i n Ireland a t t h e time, and who gave me
information concerning her years a s a high school g i r l i n Scotland
t h a t no one e l s e could possibly have given.
DuCasse: 	 That's wonderful. That was a great help, I ' m sure.
Brennan: 	 And then on t h i s research work t h a t I had continued before I
s t a r t e d t o write, I had occasion t o v i s i t the places where she
painted i n Europe, both i n England and St. Ives and i n France
a t St. Tropez. I had a very i n t e r e s t i n g experience there inas-
much a s I v i s i t e d t h e pension i n St. Tropez where she stayed
i n the twenties with her mother, and there I found one of her
pictures, which I was able t o obtain from the person i n charge
of the pension a t t h a t time. That's one of m
y great treasures.
Litursica 

by Charbon Fortune
Charlton Fortune. ~iector.
The liturgical arts movement is an effort to re-
form taste in designing and making everythmg
used in the litany o
f the church. It deals with the
making o
f objects used in divine worship, and is
not to be confounded with ecclesiastical art; which
is a subdivision o
f the fine arts relating to the sub-
ject matter of certain paintings and sculptures.
The liturgical movement is somewhat o
f a paradox
because the standard set is the best o
f contemporary
design and craftsmanship,yet the rules which must
be followed explicitly were made centuries ago.
These rules cover only the part o
f the church edifice
and its furniture that is used in divine service. There
is no such thing as a "liturgical" pew, although
there are precise directions for the throne for the
bishop or the sedillae for the clergy. The rules for
the making o
f all objects used in the liturgy are
meticulous and exacting, yet they permit, at the
same time, the greatest freedom o
f style and design
because they are based on sound principles o
f
aesthetics.
CLUB M
A
G
- -SEPTEMBER 1939
During the latter half o
f the 19th century these
rules were largely ignored or forgotten, and great
quantities o
f factory-made ecclesiastical furniture o
f
inferior taste flooded the churches both at home and
abroad, following the general decadence o
f taste.
Within the last two decades a change for the better
has become increasinglyevident.Encouraged by the
hierarchy, and following the direct recommendations
o
f the Pope, small groups o
f architects, artists and
craftsmen in scattered localities have dedicated
themselves to bring back to the church works based
on standards such as those followed by the medieval
guildsmen.
-
The liturgical arts movement, at firstsporadic, has
gathered tremendous momentum, sweeping rapidly
over many European countries. The best o
f the new
work may be seen in England, France, Holland, B
e
1
2
gium, and Sweden.
~harlton
Fortune,
Director Monterey Guild.
13
Brennan: 	 But the friendship continued, not on a s t r i c t l y professional
basis. Occasionally, E f f i e would e n t e r i n t o some technical
conversation, but generally speaking it was more of an amiable,
personal relationship.
It was only a f t e r my conversation with many of her r e l a t i v e s
t h a t I began t o see E f f i e i n a broader l i g h t , because my conver-
sations with her had been naturally of a rather r e s t r i c t e d nature,
while t h e i r information would have gone back many years before
I knew Effie, and t h e i r a t t i t u d e s were e n t i r e l y different.
She was a contradictory character i n many ways, and t h i s
was one of the great obstacles I think people met i n understanding
her a t the beginning. I n the United States she was representing
the i d e a l s of the B r i t i s h Commonwealth. She would have a
tendency--I'm sure i t was q u i t e unconscious--even t o assume a
rather English type of speaking. And anything t h a t pertained t o
the B r i t i s h aristocracy was something t o be maintained and, well,
highly honored and venerated really.
On the other hand, i n Scotland she w a s . M i s s America, and
I think t h a t some of her r e l a t i v e s might have become a l i t t l e
t i r e d i n hearing the United S t a t e s s e t up a s the example of a l l
t h a t i s good and f a i r and honest and wonderful! It was p a r t of
her sense of humor, and she had an interminable s t r a t a of humor
i n her makeup, so t h a t these irreconcilable elements of the
B r i t i s h o r the Scottish and the American were continually being
interplayed. And once you began t o understand t h a t , you could
get much closer t o her than otherwise, becaiuse so many f e l t t h a t
they could never get near her. Possibly she made t h a t a manner
of her own on purpose. She didn't want too many people near
her, and I believe from her point of view a s an a r t i s t she wanted
t o be alone.
This was perhaps i l l u s t r a t e d i n the f a c t t h a t she never
wanted t o l o s e herself i n a l a r g e c i t y . She had opportunities
t o l i v e i n San Francisco, but she chose Carmel. On the East
Coast, though perhaps f o r other reasons too, she stayed a t the
Benedictine Monastery of S t . Gregory near Newport, Rhode Island.
While she traveled here and there she generally kept cosmopolitan
centers a t a distance.
It was only i n Kansas City under the direction of her
friend, and r e a l l y the savior of the Monterey Guild, Bishop .
O'Hara, t h a t she entered t o any extent i n t o the s o c i a l l i f e of
a f a i r l y l a r g e community, and t h a t was only on special occasions
and with a c e r t a i n amount of hesitation. Her love was t o be
alone because, as she wrote very beautifully on one occasion,
1
'
a person has t o hear nature speaking, and nature speaks very
quietly. "
Brennan: 	 So she loved Monterey and she loved country places f o r t h a t very
reason. It wasn't t o escape society, but she wanted t o keep
society a t arm's length. She maneuvered with great f a c i l i t y .
I n conversation she had no h e s i t a t i o n maintaining high speed with
anyone present, but she r a r e l y engaged i n personal relati'onships,
even i n conversation. People were always objects a t a distance.
So she could speak very humorously and sardonically and sometimes
very acidly about them, but they seemed t o be always persons on
a stage. They were not friends or individuals i n the sense of
t h e ordinary relationships. So many of the expressions t h a t made
her humor sparkle might scandalize t h e average person who would
hear her say something and t r a n s l a t e i t i n t h e ardinary terms,
but they were never intended t o be ordinary terms.
DuCasse: 	 And i t was not vicious o r anything of t h a t kind.
Brennan: 	 It was basically the r o l l i c k i n g humor of a Scot, and t h a t ' s perhaps
a rather mysterious expression, but you have t o be a Scot t o
understand it! [laughter] M
y grandmother was a Scot, so I know
t h a t too.
But now coming down t o perhaps the more immediate circum-
stances of the Monterey Guild, E f f i e had a great veneration f o r
church authority. It was one of the most u n r e a l i s t i c things about
her. She venerated the o f f i c e and the person of the bishop, s o
much ,so t h a t despite her realism i n many ways, she was r e a l l y
convinced a t the beginning a t l e a s t , t h a t i f the bishop were t o
announce a project, a l l p r i e s t s , a l l sisters, a l l brothers, a l l
r e l i g i o u s i n the diocese would bow t h e i r heads i n absolute
obedience, conform t o h i s w i l l , put the project i n t o action
immediately and enjoy t h e obedience.
Actually, t h e Monterey Guild was founded on t h a t concept,
and one of the tragedies was t h a t no one, not even her very close
friends i n the clergy, had the nerve o r perhaps the r e a l i z a t i o n
t o express the r e a l i t y t o her. She was encouraged by the Arch-
bishop of San Francisco and by the Bishop of Fresno t o e s t a b l i s h
the Monterey Guild, and given a l l s o r t s of blessings and
commendations and best wishes f o r a b r i l l i a n t future. But when
it came down t o the n i t t y - g r i t t y of getting contracts, it was an
e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t matter.
DuCasse: 	 Oh, t h a t ' s when she learned about the ways things a r e done.
Brennan: 	 And then she began t o learn i n a very serious way how many
problems were involved. Of course it wasn't simply the r e l a t i o n
between herself and the clergy. It was the more p r a c t i c a l
relationship of herself t o the man who had contracted t o design
the church, the architect. What would be the relationship
Brennan: 	 between him and Effie? What would be the relationship between 

the a r c h i t e c t , the pastor, and Effie? Between the architect, 

the building commission of the diocese, the pastor, and Effie? 

And i n a l l of t h i s , E f f i e would, a t the beginning, have a 

tendency t o r i d e roughshod over i t a l l and say t h a t -
she was 

the a r t i s t and anything t h a t had t o do with a r t was i n her 

province and she could d i c t a t e t o these other irrespective of 

t h e i r particular positions o r i n t e r e s t s . This established 

d i f f i c u l t i e s from the very beginning. 

It was r a t h e r singular t h a t t h e ones who understood her best
i n the e a r l y days were women, not men. There wasMother Raymond
a t Dominican College who you might say was her savior. It was
Mother Raymond who gave her her f i r s t major contract. The re-
designing of t h e old chapel a t the college gave her an opportunity
t o show her a b i l i t y t o plan a new sanctuary. She not only
designed an a l t a r , she not only did some painting, but she in-
corporated the use of sculptors, of metalworkers, of women who
did the sewing of the reredos and the antependia. A s E f f i e did
a l l t h e designing f o r these craftspeople, she held herself a s an
a r t i s t on a l e v e l with the a r c h i t e c t a s f a r a s the sanctuary was
concerned.
And obviously these principles had never been worked out
previously. N
o one ever thought of designing a church o r a chapel
with these principles i n mind. She was a pioneer i n t h i s respect,
a very hardy pioneer and a voluble one, and not every a r c h i t e c t or
p r i e s t o r building commission was able t o go along with her
because they had t h e i r experiences of t h e i r own and could foresee
d i f f i c u l t i e s t h a t she e i t h e r did not foresee o r refused t o foresee.
So t h e r e were present these very natural elements t h a t induced
d i f f i c u l t i e s which always would be there, but possibly would not
be q u i t e so dominant.
Then there was another very p r a c t i c a l problem a t t h e
beginning. I ' m only speaking of these very early years.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, well, t h a t ' s wonderful because t h a t ' s what we need, t h a t ' s
what we don't have.
Brennan: 	 Actually, the f i r s t work t h a t E f f i e did was the decoration of
t h e Church of St. Angela i n P a c i f i c Grove. Father Kerfs was a
very capable man, and he had sense enough t o r e a l i z e t h a t t o
decorate a church you needed someone with knowledge t h a t went a
l i t t l e more beyond painting, t h a t i s i n the f l a t sense of the
word.
Brennan: So he approached E f f i e probably thinking t h a t she would simply
choose a color and have the sanctuary painted. It was a small
sanctuary. But of course the project ignited E f f i e ' s brain, and
she s t a r t e d from t h i s small sanctuary t o design something t h a t
actually was the pioneer r e a l i z a t i o n of l i t u r g i c a l artwork i n
the United S t a t e s a s f a r a s the Roman Catholic Church i s concerned.
DuCasse: There were good pictures taken, I hope, so t h a t t h i s i s preserved.
Brennan: Yes, good pictures were taken, and I have them.
But one of the tragedies was t h a t i n t h i s work E f f i e and the
craftsmen and some of E f f i e ' s friends paid f o r most of the
furnishings, f o r the a l t a r , statues, baptistry, f o r the various
things and I ' m sure t h a t the craftspeople were not given an
excessive salary t o begin with. E f f i e probably took nothing a t
a l l . The complete financial statement of the decoration is
unbelievable, a few thousand dollars. This generosity had a
reverse e f f e c t .
It soon became known, especially through the diocesan news-
paper, t h a t t h i s wonderful work had cost very l i t t l e . Conse-
quently, when other p r i e s t s became interested i n having things
done by the Monterey Guild, and she presented an estimate f o r
the job, they thought i t excessive. She was met immediately with
the challenge: "Well, how did you do so much f o r St. Angela f o r
so l i t t l e , and you're charging so much f o r s o l i t t l e f o r me?"
[laughter]
So her reputation became extremely questionable and was
generally put i n a bad l i g h t . I n many cases the impression was
given t h a t she was asking exorbitant prices, and of course the
standard of comparison was the published catalogues of religious-
goods houses. L i t t l e d i s t i n c t i o n w a s made between commercially
produced objects and hand-crafted ones of r e a l a r t i s t i c merit.
A s long a s one could get something cheaper i n the catalogue i t
was generally preferred. And i n t h i s way, the Monterey Guild
grew very slowly. E f f i e had lean days, and it was t h e Depression.
DuCasse: So there were many things t h a t were
expression of t h a t wonderful idea.
conspiring against the whole
Brennan: Y e s .
DuCasse: Y e s , I can see more and more why there was a reason f o r our
eventual forming of t h i s Catholic A r t Forum which was necessary
t o educate not only the religious people, but the l a i t y t o know
what i t meant t o have a r e a l a r t i s t t o do the work, which meant
t h a t he had t o be paid, she had t o be paid properly, and the
value and so forth.
Brennan: 	 But during those days of course Effie did carry on a one-person
campaign of education. She would speak widely a t d i f f e r e n t
groups. And there was one--I think i t was the National Council
of Catholic Women--at whose annual meeting i n San Francisco she
not only spoke but held an exposition of some of her materials.
There was a quasi-altar with the candelabra and some of the
decorations of a chapel j u s t t o give an example of the standard
t h a t she was t r y i n g t o s e t . That information can be found, I
believe, i n the back issues of The Monitor [San Francisco Catholic
newspaper]. That was one of the f i r s t public demonstrations she
made.
Then, skipping over the years a b i t , a f t e r her i n i t i a l work
a t Dominican College she engaged i n the decoration of the
n o v i t i a t e chapel there. While t h i s building i s no longer used
a s a novitiate, the chapel and the a l t a r remain. A painting
behind the l a t t e r represents the Five Joyful Mysteries of the
Rosary. The Dominican Congregation is the Congregation of the
Holy Rosary, and i t w a s because of t h a t t h a t the subject w a s
chosen. It is a very, very beautiful altarpiece done i n the
s o r t of medieval motive of the triptych, but i n an e n t i r e l y
modern technique. It i s a glorious painting.
Then, some of the materials, the f r o n t a l and some of the
candelabra, were l a t e r introduced a t the San Francisco Exposition
many years l a t e r when a c e r t a i n section f o r l i t u r g i c a l art was
s e t aside.
DuCasse: 	 Was t h a t t h e Treasure Island f a i r of 1939?
Brennan: -Yes. The f r o n t a l , I believe, is s t i l l with the Dominicians, but
the a l t a r reredos, which was one of oak that Effie l a t e r presented
t o St. Angela, i s now up i n Oregon. The candelabra a r e dispersed
also. She was, I think, the only l i t u r g i c a l a r t i s t i n the United
S t a t e s t o be asked by the committee t o exhibit. There was someone
from the Scandinavian countries t o demonstrate tapestry work.
There was a French jeweler who showed a chalice, and there might
have been one o r two other Americans with particular objects, but
no one had the extensive display t h a t E f f i e was asked t o 'have a t
Treasure Island.
DuCasse: 	 That's good t o know t h a t i n 1939 and 1940 it was exposed t o
r e a l l y a national and almost international exposure.
Brennan: 	 Then she l e f t Monterey, because she was given indication t h a t % e r
work might be more acceptable i n the East. She had persons there
who were interested i n h e r work and gave her the assurance of
support. One of them was a Benedictine monk a t the priory of
h i s order near Newport, Rhode Island, an old friend from the
West Coast, Vincent Martin.
Brennan: 	 She went back, and the monks established a studio f o r her on the
grounds of the priory. She taught a r t t o the students, took them
up t o Boston t o the museum and gave them a p e r i p a t e t i c a r t course,
then carried on with d i f f e r e n t diocesan a r t commissions i n a
rather modest character. One of the most o r i g i n a l projects,
though, was f o r a military i n s t i t u t i o n on t h e East Coast i n
Massachusetts where she designed a small chapel f o r the men i n
a p a t r i o t i c fashion that is extremely handsome.
DuCasse: 	 She would be able t o do t h a t very well.
Brennan: 	 Yes. Meanwhile, Bishop O'Hara of Kansas City had taken a very
great i n t e r e s t i n her, and induced her t o come t o Kansas City t o
e s t a b l i s h a movement of l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n h i s diocese. So she
l e f t the Benedictines and moved t o the Middle West. There f o r a
number of years she w a s busily engaged i n various works.
One of the f i r s t things she accomplished was the e d i t i n g of
a small guide f o r the appreciation of a r t based on sculptures
and paintings found i n the Nelson Gallery of the city. Unfor-
tunately, the booklet was e n t i t l e d "Art f o r Catholics." How she
came t o choose t h a t t i t l e must remain a mystery. From her
correspondence t o me a t the time I knew t h a t she spent some time
on t h i s d e t a i l . For one of her ecumenical tendencies, such a
decision was a l l the more puzzling since the examples she chose
to. i l l u s t r a t e principles were not s t r i c t l y l i t u r g i c a l but taken
from the area of sacred a r t i n general o r even from t h e secular
world.
She commences her work by clarifying the difference between
a photograph and an a r t i s t i c approach t o the same subject. By
way of i l l u s t r a t i o n , she chose the picture of a l i o n photographed
i n the Kansas City zoo and a sculptured Assyrian l i o n of the
museum. From t h a t point she goes on through d i f f e r e n t steps of
a r t appreciation, carrying on the h i s t o r i c a l approach but always
with reference t o works of a r t i n the Nelson Gallery.
Bishop OIHara underwrote the l i t t l e edition, and I ' m sure
t h a t not more than a thousand copies were ever available, perhaps
only f i v e hundred. On a subsequent t r i p t o Kansas City, when
I asked i f there were any copies, they said, "No," and t h a t
they didn't know anything about it. But it s t i l l remains f o r me
one of the c l e a r e s t and most down-to-earth approaches t o a r t
appreciation t h a t I ' v e seen.
DuCasse: 	 Well, I can believe t h a t because I think t h a t was E f f i e ' s approach
anyway. She was i n many ways a r e a l i s t i c person, though a t times
she was not.
Brennan: 	 Then the bishop asked her t o paint a picture f o r a r e t r e a t house
i n Kansas City, and she chose Christ waking t h e Apostles i n the
Garden of Gethsemane. For t h i s she was able t o use her f a v o r i t e
atmosphere, the night scene. She always loved night a i r and the
e f f e c t of l i g h t a t night. It remained a t the r e t r e a t house f o r
a number of years, even a f t e r the r e t r e a t house was turned i n t o
a school. But when I saw the early marks of deterioration on i t ,
I was able t o obtain the painting, and s t i l l have it. I consider
i t one of the outstanding paintings of religious a r t i n the United
States, apart from the decoration of any church. And I treasure
t h a t more than perhaps any of the other pictures t h a t I have of
hers.
Then she went i n t o the Kansas City churches themselves.
A t St. P e t e r ' s she did a magnificent retablo a s well a s the e n t i r e
sanctuary. Christ The King and other places i n Kansas City came
next, under the guidance of the bishop, but not by h i s comman-
deering. The p r i e s t s w e r e never pressured, but a number of.them
took advantage of her being i n the c i t y and subsequently asked
her t o design. Then her influence went elsewhere, t o Chicago,
and t o other places.
She a l s o maintained connections with the West, designing the
chapel a t Providence Hospital i n Oakland and doing a great deal
of work f o r t h e S i s t e r s of The Good Shepherd, f o r t h e i r convents
from S e a t t l e t o Denver.
So she was kept r e l a t i v e l y active, and then f i n a l l y she knew
t h a t circumstances, both of age and other things, dictated t h a t
she should put a close t o the Monterey Guild. So she resigned a s
its a c t i v e head and the books were closed, i t seems t o me, i n the
middle f i f t i e s . I could get the exact date, but a s I say my
memory i s n ' t acting too well.
DuCasse: 	 Well, t h a t ' s close enough.
Brennan: 	 Then, through t h e years she had an overwhelming d e s i r e t o return
t o Scotland. Well, her f i r s t attempt was almost f a t a l . She
rented a cottage on an e s t a t e , t r i e d t o face a Scottish winter,
contracted pneumonia, nearly died, and was directed by 'her doctor
t o leave Scotland a s soon a s possible! [laughing]
So she went t o I t a l y and remained i n I t a l y f o r some time with
occasional t r i p s back t o the United States, e i t h e r t o the East
Coast t o look over some contracts t h a t were still i n the making
or even t o the West Coast. But eventually she returned t o Monterey,
and spent her l a s t days i n Camel Valley where she passed away.
Brennan: 	 Even there she continued her painting. A friend of hers l i v i n g
i n England has a painting of her residence at Carmel Valley.
And a friend i n San Francisco has a small painting of Two A r t i s t s
a t Leisure, a very lovely scene which r e a l l y represents these two
friends of many, many years; t h e i r friendship goes back t o the
time when they were young women. E f f i e was the bridesmaid of the
other, and they have remained friends a l l these years. That
painting w a s a l s o finished at Carmel.
One of the humorous incidents i n E f f i e ' s l a t e r years was a t
Carmel Valley Manor when, shortly a f t e r her a r r i v a l , one of the
residents came up and introduced herself a s the chairman of a
group t h a t was interested i n painting. She said, "Miss Fortune,
we understand t h a t you l i k e painting, and we have a number of
residents here who have gotten together and we have been i n touch
with an i n s t r u c t o r from Monterey. He's coming over t o give us
lessons. We've already had one and a r e delighted with him.
Would you l i k e t o join us?'' [laughter] In a subsequent l e t t e r
E f f i e wrote, "That afternoon I went out and bought a white
petunia. "
DuCasse: 	 Oh! What a beautiful way t o put it! I s n ' t she marvelous? Well,
one thing I wanted t o know, did she and Father Meehan do any work
together? I know they were friends.
Brennan: 	 I believe not.
DuCasse: 	 They never did collaborate, did they?
Brennan: 	 No. Father Meehan was a one-man l i t u r g i c a l movement. I don't
know very much about him from a personal point of view, but Father
Vincent Carroll a t St. Thomas More Church i n San Francisco would
be the one t o contact; he was very close t o him.
DuCasse: 	 Oh, I'll do that.
Brennan: 	 But he was famous i n our day f o r having had a chalice made by
Holmans 6f Brussels. What happened t o t h a t chalice I don't know,
but I ' m q u i t e sure t h a t Father Carroll could t e l l you. Then
subsequently he was responsible f o r the designing of other things
by Holmans o r by Gorham o r some other silversmiths i n t h i s country
f o r churches i n and around the Bay Area.
DuCasse: 	 I think he used Dirk Van Erp a t one time.
Brennan : 	
Yes.
DuCasse: 	 Your generosity i n giving us t h i s information about E f f i e Fortune
i s so important. There would have been no movement I think i n
t h i s area i f it hadn't been f o r Effie.
Brennan: Oh, t h a t ' s right.
DuCasse: And a l s o Father Meehan, but I think she was the more solid.
Brennan: Well, she accomplished things, whereas Father Meehan was i n parish
work, and h i s i n t e r e s t i n a r t could only be you might say secondary
t o h i s pastoral work. He was a l s o responsible I think possibly
f o r t h e introduction of what we used t o c a l l gothic vestments, the
wide vestment. I ' m not sure of the s i s t e r s t h a t he contacted t o
make them.
DuCasse: I know t h e S i s t e r s of the Mission of San Jose did some vestments,
but whether they did h i s o r not I ' m not too sure.
Brennan: But these were the roots of the l i t u r g i c a l movement here.
DuCasse: Well, t h a t ' s been a very great help t o us, Monsignor.
appreciate i t s o much.
W e do
Brennan: Well, i t ' s not very l o g i c a l l y presented.
DuCasse: Oh, I think i t was more logical than you r e a l i z e because you
j u s t went r i g h t through from the beginning, and it was very,
wonderful. Thank you s o very much.
very
Transcriber : Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture
i n the Sari Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Ethel Souza
THE JUNIPER0 SERRA SHOP, MAIDEN LANE, S
A
N FRANCISCO
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1982 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- E t h e l Souza
INTERVIEW HISTORY
INSPIRED BEGINNINGS: CLYDE HEASLEY, AND PAUL DIEBELS
WIDER CONNECTIONS: DEL LEDERLE AND MAURICE LAVANOUX
SPONSORING FORUMS AND WORKSHOPS
FINDING A NEW PLACE, AND A NEW WORK
SHARED THOUGHTS ON THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CATHOLIC ART FORUM
INTERVIEW H IS
T
O
R
Y
Ethel Souza and the Junipero Serra Shop were not only a mighty force 

f o r Catholic a r t and culture i n California and the Bay Area, but i n the 

l i v e s of a l l who were fortunate enough t o have known her a s a friend, and 

the shop a s a gathering place f o r Catholic a r t i s t s and others. 

I am one of those people fortunate enough t o have met and become one
of Ethel's friends. For ten years, between 1952 and 1962, she lived i n my
home, bringing i n t o i t many of the leaders from Europe and the United States
i n t h e vanguard of t h a t movement i n the Church t h a t led t o Vatican 1
1
. It
was an invaluable education of mind and s p i r i t i n contemporary Catholic
culture.
Ethel and the Junipero Serra Shop, with Father Monihan, S.J., were the
cradle f o r the Catholic A r t Forum founded i n 1953 which did s o much t o bring
the contemporary artist together with the Church during the 1950s and 1960s
i n the Bay Area.
With the closing of the Junipero Serra Shop i n 1967, Ethel went on t o
exercise additional t a l e n t s i n her directorships of Catholic r e t r e a t centers
i n Santa Barbara and t h e Los Angeles area, and eventually back i n the greater
San Francisco Bay Area, always with an emphasis on contemporary a r t i n
l i t u r g y and l i f e . Her sphere of influence was strongly f e l t wherever she
was a c t i v e i n the f i e l d .
Suddenly her great career was abruptly stopped by a t r a g i c occurrence
i n August 1980: an embolism i n the brain, which kept her i n a coma f o r
months. Miraculously, she came out of i t , but she is s t i l l struggling
through a lengthy convalescence and rehabilitation.
It was during t h i s time of convalescence that I did our interview.
Our place of meeting was the mobile home she was l i v i n g i n i n Marin County.
Her memory was remarkable, considering what she had been through, but it is
not a s detailed a s it surely would have been had we been able t o t a l k e a r l i e r .
It w a s a p r i v i l e g e t o interview a person so responsible f o r the renaissance
of the l i t u r g i c a l a r t s i n the Bay Area.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office 

Room 486 ii 

The Bancroft Library 

University of California 

Berkeley, California 94720 

Your full name 

Date of birth ~ A - M u , ~ / z ~
22 /726

/ '
Place of birth & ~ ~ ,
p
-
fl 

Father's full name &
& , h M d ,
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Father's place of birth , /
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THE JUNIPER0 SERRA SHOP, MAIDEN LANE, S
A
N FRANCISCO
[Interview date: February 12, 19821
Inspired Beginnings: Clyde Heasley, and Paul Diebels
DuCasse: 	 When did you f i r s t get your idea f o r founding the Junipero Serra
Shop?
Souza: 	 When I was a t the University of California I got involved i n
Catholic Action, and we s t a r t e d a Y
C
S [Young Christian Students]
group there. When I was through a t Cal, I went on to law school,
but I hated law school. I had a friend, Clyde Heasley, who was
very much i n love with m
y friend Mary Moore (I guess she was Mary
Eggers then), and she liked him but she didn't want t o marry him.
Well, Clyde disappeared one weekend, and we thought maybe
he jumped off a bridge o r something. I got a postcard from him
t e l l i n g m
e t h a t he would meet me a t the Gaylord Hotel, where we
often went f o r lunch. And so I met him, and a t the end of t h e
meal he said t o me, "Well, what a r e we going t o do about it,
Ethel?" I thought he meant Mary. I was prepared t o say, "I
don't know," because I didn't want t o get i n the middle of t h a t
anymore.
But he said t o me, ''When I was praying down a t Los Gatos--
down a t the J e s u i t r e t r e a t house a t El Retiro--I stayed one extra
day t o clean the floors f o r the brother, and the next day I got
the f l o o r wet with my t e a r s , and I realized t h a t I was crying
because I knew t h a t God was there, but I didn't f e e l t h a t He was
there. So I promised Him t h a t we would do something f o r Him.
told Him t h a t day I would meet you and we would decide what t o do."
I had a cup of coffee i n my hand, and i t was j u s t a s i f he
was i n v i t i n g me t o a movie or something. I knew t h a t it was what
we were going t o do. So we went from there t o the Cardinal Room
I
Souza: 	 and drank beer a l l day and made a list of what we thought the
Church needed. W
e went through that list and c l a s s i f i e d our-
selves a s t o a b i l i t i e s and resources, and gave up on t h a t because
we couldn't do anything on them. So Clyde took another piece of
paper and wrote down what we could do, and from t h a t came the
idea f o r the Junipero Serra Shop.
W
e made two promises t o each other. One was t h a t we would
discuss i t with a l o t of people, but t h a t we would f i n a l l y take
the responsibility ourselves, and the other was t h a t we would
not--we weren't going t o do t h i s f o r l i f e , we would only do it
a s long a s we thought the Lord needed us:. W
e discussed it with
many people, including you, I think.
DuCasse: 	 No, I was not i n on it q u i t e t h a t early.
Souza: 	 But, with many people. And from t h a t came the idea of the
Junipero Serra Shop.
One of the people we discussed i t with was Father O'Looney,
who introduced us t o Paul Diebels, who was j u s t back from Panama,
and he was s e l l i n g books out of h i s home i n Menlo Park and
wanted t o go on s e l l i n g books. I met him once and said t o
Clyde, ' W e l l , I l i k e him; i f you want t o join with him, i t ' s a l l
r i g h t with me." Clyde took m
e t o the a i r p o r t , and I flew East
and made l o t s of contacts back there, and when I came back we
were partners.
They had developed i n t o what they called " l o f t mice,"
[laughter] because they had decided it was b e t t e r t h a t we stay
downtown, r a t h e r than go out i n the neighborhoods; the only
thing we could afford downtown was on the l o f t side.
I n the meantime, we didn't have any money. And I had called
my father and mother from New York t e l l i n g them t h a t I was going
t o leave law school and s t a r t the Junipero Serra Shop. M
y father
told me he never wanted t o see me again, he was so angry a t me.
When I got t o St. Louis, I stopped a t the Liturgical Conference,
and I got a l e t t e r from m
y mother with a check and an apology
(which was t h e only t i m e she'd ever apologized t o me i n her l i f e ) ,
t e l l i n g m e not t o worry about m
y father, t h a t he would be a l l
right. He was, too, a f t e r we had several vicious arguments.
I lived with Barbara Juvenile's parents i n Oakland during
t h a t time. W
e had no money, a s I say.
Then Clyde m e t h i s old lieutenant commander, Heiner, a t
the t r a n s i t terminal where the buses came i n over from Oakland.
Commander Heiner asked him i f he would l i k e t o w r i t e a book on
Souza: missiles f o r the Navy. He said "Yes," and so Commander Heiner
gave Clyde a check f o r $3,000, and t h a t was the money we had t o
begin the shop.
Clyde then was working a t Treasure Island, and we found--
I've forgotten who found it--an ad f o r the shop on Maiden Lane.
W
e went up there, and they wouldn't give u s an answer. In the
meantime, we found another shop over the Yankee Doodle Bar on
Powell S t r e e t , which was more expensive but had a l o t more space.
W
e called Clyde and asked him which t o take, and he said t o us,
"Well, l e t God make the decision. G
o up t o Mr. Van Horn and t e l l
him t h a t you've got t o know now whether you've got i t o r not, and
i f he says yes, take it, and i f he says no, go t o the Yankee
Doodle Bar and take t h a t one." Paul went t o Mr. Van Horn--I
don't remember whether I was with him--and told him t h a t , and Mr.
Van Horn said yes, and so we moved in. W
e opened on the Feast of
Christ The King i n 1949 on October 31st. And t h a t was how we
began.
DuCasse: Now, there was j u s t yourself and Clyde and Paul a t the beginning,
is t h a t r i g h t ?
Souza: Yes.
DuCasse: What were the aims or the purpose you had i n mind f o r t h a t ?
Souza: W
e wanted t o be a center of communication f o r the Catholic Church
i n the area. W
e became l a t e r much more ecumenical. W
e wanted t o
provide t h e best i n books and a r t f o r the area t h a t was possible.
DuCasse: So you r e a l l y had a c u l t u r a l aim a s w e l l , didn't you?
Souza: That's right.
Wider Connections: D e l Lederle and Maurice Lavanoux
DuCasse: There was another question too t h a t I thought might bring out
some of your own ideas. Was t h e s i t u a t i o n with t h e l i t u r g i c a l
movement i n Europe, a s well a s i n America--did t h a t have something
t o do with your aims i n founding the Junipero Serra Shop? Did
t h a t come i n t o it a t a l l ? O r , was perhaps t h a t part of i t a
l i t t l e l a t e r on when you branched out i n t o the a r t as well a s the
books?
Souza : I think i t was l a t e r on, because Mary Moore (she was Mary Eggers
then) had gone t o Europe, and I wrote her and told her t h a t we
were opening the shop and asked her i f she could find a r t f o r
me. I sent her a Junipero Serra Shop card which m
y old a r t
teacher from high school, Elaine Dulivia [sp?] had designed f o r
US.
Mary took the card and posted it a t a religious a r t center
i n Paris, and Del Lederle came t o it. He s t a r t e d t o write me,
and I wrote t o him, we wrote back and forth. Then, I w a s going
back East, and it j u s t so happened t h a t he was coming back home.
W
e met i n Sheed & Ward's i n New York. The elevator opened, and
t h i s t a l l man with f u r s and a corduroy s u i t and a red beard
walked i n , and I knew i t was Del.
W
e became f a s t friends. W
e went a l l over New York together,
and I told him what I wanted. W
e went t o the Liturgical A r t s
Center and met--what was h i s name?
DuCasse: Is t h a t Maurice Lavanoux, the e d i t o r of Liturgical A r t s magazine?
Souza: Yes. And we invited him t o have lunch with us. He accepted,
and when I went down t o meet him D e l wasn't there. I was furious
because t h a t meant I had t o take him t o lunch alone. [laughter]
Those were the days when women couldn't-so he had t o pay f o r it.
Then I got back t o San Francisco, and we opened the shop on
the Feast of Christ The King. It was blessed by a pastor of Old
Saint Mary's, Father Collins I think i t was.
DuCasse: Yes, i t probably was Collins a t t h a t time, a P a u l i s t father.
Souza: I don't know exactly when, but shortly a f t e r t h a t Clyde told me
he was leaving, t h a t he wanted t o go East. (He had gotten married
i n the meantime t o Maria Keasing.) He told m
e he was leaving,
t h a t he wanted t o go East t o continue working on the missiles
book. I said, " A l l right," so he l e f t , and Paul and I went on
together. I can't remember who came t o take Clyde's place.
DuCasse: Was t h a t Joe? O r did Joe Golden come i n l a t e r ?
Souza: He came l a t e r . He came when Paul l e f t . Madeleine Baldwin came
i n there. She was Paul's godmother, and t h a t ' s why she came.
Then Paul l e f t t o become a p r i e s t , and then Joe and Janet Golden
came. Then P h i l i p and Monica Burnham came, and they lived with
uss a s you remember.
DuCasse: Yes, indeed I do remember.
Souza: Well, t h a t was p r e t t y much it. Then we moved across
from 116 t o 157 Maiden Lane. During t h a t t i m e I m e t
a r t i s t s , including you and Ruth [Cravath], those a r e
ones, and Louisa Jenkins.
the street
a l o t of
the main
DuCasse: The Catholic A r t Forum was not begun u n t i l 1953, so, you see,
you had thoroughly established t h e shop a s a c u l t u r a l center
r e a l l y , and a l i t u r g i c a l center f o r a r t and f o r l i t u r g y and
books and t h e whole l i f e of th* Church a s w e l l a s t h e community
l i f e of t h e Church. So t h a t helped t h e founders of t h e A r t
Forum also.
Did you have any other p r i e s t s near t h e beginning who took
an a c t i v e p a r t o r a t l e a s t gave you some support there a t t h e
beginning? O r were you p r e t t y much a l a y group t h a t struggled
along on your own?
Souza: P r e t t y much a l a y group. There was Father O'Looney,
and Father Joe Diebels, who was Paul's brother.
of course,
DuCasse: You had a series of lectures, too,
prominent people i n t h e f i e l d ?
a t t h e shop, given by
Souza: Y e s , we had various topics. W e discussed l i t u r g i c a l a r t . W e
had Bob Rambusch come once and discuss l i t u r g i c a l a r t . Later we
sponsored forums with t h e College of Notre Dame of Belmont during
the summer, one on peace and one on c r e a t i v i t y .
DuCasse: And then they a l s o had one on t h e wisdom of evolution.
Souza: And the r e l i g i o n s of Abraham.
DuCasse: Y e s , where you r e a l l y showed the ecumenical s p i r i t t h a t you a l l
had developed by t h a t t i m e .
You exhibited and sold the work of a r t i s t s i n t h e shop, D e l
Lederle primarily, and ~ o u i s a
Jenkins, so many of those great
people.
Souza: Then I s t a r t e d Barbara Zrnich making vestments f o r us.
Finding s New Place and a New Work
DuCasse: When did you close the shop i n San Francisco and move t o Monterey?
Souza: I n 1967. I knew a t the beginning of t h a t year t h a t I was going
t o leave, but I didn't know what I was going t o do. But I knew
t h a t the changes i n the Church had been such t h a t the reasons
t h a t we had s t a r t e d the shop no longer were applicable, and I
decided t h a t I wanted t o work with people instead.
I was speaking with the then-Sister Fleurette, who's now
Elisabeth Bugental, and told her of m
y idea, and she said t h a t
she was going t o do t h a t i n Santa Barbara, going t o s t a r t a
center i n Santa Barbara. I said t h a t ' s what I ' d l i k e t o do i n
northern California, and she said, "Why don't you come t o Santa
Barbara and do i t with me?" and I said, " A l l right." Those were
the two worst years of m
y l i f e because I got down there t o find
out--
Well, I went from t h e Junipero Serra Shop i n 1967 t o be a t
the B.V.M. [Order of t h e Blessed Virgin Mary] f o r two months while
they decided what t o do with t h e i r place. And during t h a t time
I flew t o Chicago with Don de l a Peiia t o meet with t h e i r council
t o ask f o r support f o r the year's program t o find out what t o
do ~ 5 t h
the place. I flew from Chicago t o Los Angeles, and
Fleurette m e t m
e and told m
e she was leaving the community. She
was the f i r s t of the important Immaculate Hearts t o leave the
community. So i t was a b i g decision f o r her, and f o r the com-
munity. And she ended up marrying her psychiatrist whom she's
s t i l l married t o , J i m Bugental.
DuCasse: That must have been very hard f o r you.
Souza: Well, I've often said t h a t it was a s though the Immaculate Hearts
invited me t o help them build a house on the banks of a r i v e r ,
and the r i v e r began t o flood and they had t o spend a l l t h e i r time
on the banks keeping the flood from coming on. They didn't have
any time o r any resources t o help me. So I ended up holding down
two jobs, and i t was very d i f f i c u l t and i t didn't work.
DuCasse: Would there have been a good response there i f
on such a shaky foundation, do you think?
t h a t had not been
Souza: I think so, yes.
DuCasse: Of course they have retained i t [Immaculate Heart College],
they a r e using i t i n d i f f e r e n t ways.
but
DuCasse: And then a f t e r t h a t was it t h a t you went down t o St. Andrews?
Souza: That's right. Then I went down t o St. Andrews Priory. I didn't
know what I was going t o do, but Father Vincent'Martin had j u s t
come back from I s r a e l and he came i n t o v i s i t me. I told him I
had t o leave La Casa [Casa Maria, run by Immaculate Heart Order],
and he invited me t o come t o St. Andrews Priory. He invited
V.J. [Victoria Jadez] t o do i t too.
DuCasse: So she had been working with you a t Casa Maria.
Souza: That's r i g h t . I had met her when she was the secretary t o
Ludwine Van Kersbergen, when Van Kersbergen was the head of the
Grail. I knew t h a t V.J. was a very good secretary, s o when I
was i n Chicago t h a t time with the B.V.M.s, we had lunch and I
invited her t o come t o La Casa t o work with m
e and she did.
She's been with m
e ever since.
DuCasse: H
o
w long were you then down a t St. Andrews?
Souza: I went there i n January of
brosa i n June of 1972.
1970 and I l e f t and came t o Vallom-
Shared Thoughts on the Importance of
A r t Forum
the Catholic
DuCasse: I think we go through periods i n our l i f e where we have a
beginning and we have an end, j u s t l i k e you did with the
Junipero Serra Shop. And i t ' s very much the same t h a t happened
with t h e Catholic A r t Forum. W
e had come t o the end of its
need; t h e r e was no more need f o r the educational p a r t of it,
the expositional p a r t of it, and I think i t was very much the
same with t h e shop. W
e had done a l l t h a t we could, and the
time had ended and a new e r a had begun.
Souza: Well, I would have preferred i t i f the shop had ended sooner.
I would have preferred i t i f i t had ended with a bang and not
a whimper. Joe Golden took it t o Monterey f o r two years, but
they had t o close i t there too because they couldn't get enough
patronage. They supported it p r e t t y much; Janet Golden i s very
wealthy, you know.
DuCasse: You know, people s t i l l say, "It's j u s t t e r r i b l e t h a t we
have a Junipero Serra Shop i n San Francisco anymore."
don't
Souza: I know, but
supported.
the reason t h a t we don't i s t h a t they don't get
DuCasse: A l l they r e a l l y wanted i t f o r were f o r good cards and good books,
o r something l i k e that. Well, t h a t ' s not enough.
Of
I wish t h a t we could remember some of
course, Barbara Zrnich and Del Lederle.
the other a r t i s t s .
Souza: Vincent Stegman, Louise Masten.
DuCasse: You had Ade Bethune's work a t one time, didn't you?
Souza: Yes.
DuCasse: I remember she came t o the P a c i f i c coast back i n the t h i r t i e s .
Souza: I met her i n t h e East. I didn't meet her out here, I don't think.
DuCasse: There was an English a r t i s t , Joan Morris,
think, a f t e r t h e shop was open.
and she did come,
- I
Souza: Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t .
DuCasse: Do you remember i f Maurice Lavanoux ever had an a r t i c l e about the
Junipero Serra Shop i n h i s magainze?
Souza: I think he did have.
DuCasse: He must have had something about you people i n h i s magazine,
because remember he took those t r i p s around the country
canvassing the areas where he f e l t t h a t there was some r e a l
a c t i v i t y , some r e a l Catholic a r t and culture.
Souza: And he v i s i t e d us, I know.
DuCasse: Oh, yes, and I remember meeting him i n the early f o r t i e s , because
i t was a f t e r I had done the murals a t Saint Monica's.
I s t i l l have several copies of t h i s a r t i c l e t h a t appeared
i n The Monitor [ a San Francisco Catholic newspaper], on July 5,
1957. [The a r t i c l e i s an interview with DuCasse about religious
a r t and the Catholic A r t Forum, of which she w a s then president.]
This was done i n '57 and I must have had t h a t at Lone
Mountain College because, see, i t said student membership i n
the Catholic A r t Forum was one dollar. W
e had t h a t a r t i c l e
copied and used t o give i t out t o people a t the A r t Forum
meetings.
Souza: I remember t h a t I l e f t the A r t Forum because i t seemed t o me
t h a t we were spending more time running the A r t Forum than we
were doing anything about Catholic a r t .
DuCasse: [laughter] There was a period when we were. A t the very
beginning, a t the inception of i t , it was f u l l of vibrancy and
l i f e , and I think i t was a l s o around t h a t time--probably about
the middle of i t s l i f e span t h a t the need began t o cease.
Souza: Probably .
DuCasse : Remember, we had done the educational part, w e had a r c h i t e c t s
and a r t i s t s coming together and working together on new churches
and so f o r t h , so there r e a l l y wasn't very much l e f t f o r us t o do,
was there?
Souza: 	 No.
DuCasse : 	
And then when the Vatican Council came along, art w a s not q u i t e
so important anymore; i t was the s p i r i t , it was the community
of Christians together t h a t was important. So, of course, t h a t
l e f t most of us out of a job! [laughter] It was a fascinating
and exciting period.
Souza : 	 It was indeed. And I met some of m
y best friends a t the shop,
including you.
DuCasse: 	 That was a mecca f o r people from a l l over a s well a s from
California, from the Bay ~ r e a . It was a wonderful, wonderful
place, and i t f u l f i l l e d a very great need that was c e r t a i n l y
'dominant a t t h a t time.
Did you get t o meet a t any time i n the very, very beginning,
o r maybe even before you s t a r t e d the shop, Father John Meehan?
Souza: 	 Yes.
DuCasse: 	 He was c r u c i a l i n the establishment of a l i t u r g i c a l movement i n
California, and of course worked with E. Charlton Fortune. Do
you have any memories of e i t h e r of them?
Souza: 	 I remember Father Meehan a s a very nice person, but he had frozen
a t about 1920, he wouldn't go beyond that. Charlton Fortune I
liked very much.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, she was a vibrant person. Father Meehan was gentle and
rather quiet about things. Of course you would have known him
because he worked with us on the religious a r t exhibit of 1953,
and you were very much a p a r t of t h a t . E f f i e Fortune, I don't
remember whether she was active i n t h a t o r not.
Souza: I don't think she was.
DuCasse: I don't believe so e i t h e r , but of course she was r e a l l y more down
i n Monterey, with the Monterey Guild.
Souza: She was an Anglican too.
DuCasse: No, she was a Roman Catholic, but she was very Anglican i n her
whole a t t i t u d e , and she loved t o be able t o t e l l off the clergy,
that was her chief aim i n l i f e [laughter], and she did i t very
well. She was q u i t e a character. She was a Scotswoman; I
think you think of her a s being an Anglican because she was
j u s t not the Roman kind of Roman Catholic, t h e r e ' s no doubt
about it.
What I ' m hoping is t h a t I ' l l find more history i n Liturgical
A r t s magazine.
Souza: Minna Berger was a great help t o me.
DuCasse: Yes, oh I ' m sure she was. I remember how much she r e a l l y backed
the Junipero Serra Shop. This was the kind of thing t h a t -
she
needed, t h a t -
she wanted, having been the l i b r a r i a n of the Paulists.
Souza: That's where I met Father O'Looney, a t Minna Berger's.
DuCasse: I think probably we've p r e t t y much covered it.
Souza: I think s o too. Would you l i k e a glass of wine?
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist : Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Reltgious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
William Justema
THOUGHTS O
F A CONCERNED ARTIST AND CRITIC
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1982 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- W i l l i a m J u s t e m a
INTERVIEW HISTORY
THE EUROPEAN BACKGROUND OF 20TH CENTURY LITURGICAL ART
CONVERSIONy AND STUDY TOUR OF BENEDICTINE MONASTERIES
DECORATING THE CRYPT OF THE ABBEY CHURCH AT MOUNT ANGEL, OREGON;
LOUISA JENKINS' COURSE AND SUBSEQUENT ART INTEREST
LITURGICAL ARTS ARTICLE ON SOURCES OF STYLE FOR CHRISTIAN ART
C W G E S IN THE CHURCH AND THE NEED FOR A N
E
W LITURGICAL ARTS
MOVEMENT
INTERVIEW H ISTORY
William Justema has been a friend of mine since he studied with m
y


f a t h e r , Xavier Martinez, a t t h e College of A r t s and Crafts during several 

summers when he was i n high school j u s t p r i o r t o the 1920s. 

H i s very great t a l e n t a s a poet, painter and writer developed steadily,
with wide acclaim. A new impetus and direction f o r h i s a r t i s t i c l i f e began
with h i s conversion t o the Catholic Church i n 1949. After a short period
i n a Benedictine monastery, M t . Angel Abbey, i n Oregon, he moved outside
the c l o i s t e r and f o r a time w a s a r t e d i t o r f o r the abbey's publication,
St. Joseph's Magazine. From then on he painted, wrote and taught a l t e r -
nately i n New York and San Francisco.
Upon h i s retirement i n the 1970s, he s e t t l e d i n San Francisco and has
been working on a number of manuscripts f o r books, preparing them f o r
publication.
Our renewed friendship brought f o r t h much discussion of the s t a t e of
the a r t of the Church i n the present time, a s w e l l a s i n t h e period of its
renaissance i n the Bay Area, with which we were both involved i n varying
degrees. It w a s a special pleasure and enrichment t o have interviewed s o
valued a friend, and t o have reviewed h i s thought when we met f o r these
interviews i n h i s Sutter S t r e e t , San Francisco, studio-apartment.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office
Room 486 The Bancroft Library
University of California
Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please p r i n t o r w r i t e clearly)
Your f u l l name %
L
-
Date of b i r t h D w 9 , C 9O S
*
Place of b i r t h ,k
- I
Father's f u l l name (a$
m *
Birthplace 1 L ,
occupation P A ,
. r
Mother's f u l l name
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THOUGHTS O
F A CONCERNED ARTIST AND CRITIC
[Interview date : October 20, 19821
The Euro~eanBackground of 20th Centurv Liturgical A r t
DuCasse: 	 The interview today is with William Justema, who was born i n
Chicago i n 1905, but has spent most of h i s career shuttling
between the West Coast and New York. For forty years he designed
wallpapers and fabrics f o r some of America's leading manufacturers
of home furnishings. He has designed and executed large-scale
mosaics f o r public places, and has taught design a t c r a f t centers
across the country and i n conjunction with the Textile Study Room
a t the Metropolitan Museum of A r t . During World War I1 he was
cited f o r h i s work a s an i n s t i g a t o r and instructor of camouflage
-
techniques. H i s poetry has been widely published i n the -
New
Yorker, the Atlantic Monthly, Poetry, and elsewhere, and he is
the author o r co-author of The Pleasures of Pattern, Living Walls,
and Color Course, a s well a s of many a r t i c l e s f o r c r a f t and
shelter magazines. Mr. Justema i s now devoting much of h i s time
t o writing.
He w i l l give us a brief introduction to the whole background
of l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n the European, twentieth-century tradition.
A l l right, i f you'd
~ i i l ~ , l i k e t o s t a r t ?
Justema: 	 [reading] Anthropologists seem t o agree t h a t a r t and archi-
tecture, properly so-called, had its beginnings, perhaps with
f e a r and trembling, i n some form of worship. It i s easy t o see
the connection between Stonehenge, the Parthenon, and the columns
of the f a ~ a d e sof most of our government buildings; somewhat l e s s
easy t o t r a c e a religious impulse, following cave painting and
rock drawing, through Bruegel, say, t o Picasso. A s long a s we
were dealing with buildings and symbols, works of a r t could be
Justema: 	 called e i t h e r religious o r not with impunity. Doubts enter our
minds, however, when p i c t o r i a l subject matter is broached, for
what may have looked reverent t o one age may appear blasphemous
t o the next.
This was the major d i f f i c u l t y t h a t faced churches and
t h e i r decoration a f t e r the Second World War. The majority of
people had been exposed t o the abstract q u a l i t i e s of modern a r t ,
and whether they realized it o r not, wanted e d i f i c e s and s t a t u e s
t h a t reflected it. "Just so i t ' s not too extreme," they would
say, and end up with a s t r u c t u r e modified by Frank Lloyd Wright
and cubism.
Curiously enough, what one might c a l l t h e visual s i d e of t h i s
new l i t u r g i c a l s t y l e was anticipated here i n the United States.
About 1928 a woman named Charlton Fortune s t a r t e d what she called
the Monterey Guild i n Monterey, California, f o r which she did a l l
the designs t h a t were then executed by herself and l o c a l craftsmen.
Before long she a t t r a c t e d the a t t e n t i o n of religious throughout
the country, her most s t r i k i n g work being t h e mosaic i n the
sanctuary of t h e Immaculate Conception Cathedral a t Kansas City,
Missouri, f o r which she received a gold medal from Pope Pius X I 1
i n 1956. A more detailed account of her work w i l l be i n another
p a r t of t h i s project. Though she worked, traveled, and lectured
throughout her adult l i f e , her headquarters from 1943 onwards
were a t Portsmouth Priory i n Rhode Island.
But what we heard the most about were the innovations t h a t
originated i n France. Once a largely Catholic country, and s t i l l
proud of i t s great cathedrals, French Catholics a s a whole became
increasingly indifferent t o t h e i r r e l i g i o n a f t e r two devastating
and humiliating wars.
Spearheaded by a Dominican monk known a s P&re Couturier,
the Church i n France led Christendom i n creating the f i r s t
d i s t i n c t i v e new s t y l e since the Gothic (which had a l s o been
c r y s t a l l i z e d i n France by the Abbot Suger i n h i s abbey church
a t St. Denis, j u s t outside Paris). The word for Father
Couturier is "indefatigable. "
Apparently without questioning t h e i r own r e l i g i o u s convic-
tions, he persuaded the a r c h i t e c t Le Corbusier t o design what
is s t i l l t h e most revolutionary of the new churches, Notre Dame
de Haut, a t Ronchamp, France, and perhaps the most o r i g i n a l of
the three g r e a t e s t a r t i s t s of the century,.Henri Matisse, t o
design the Chapel of the Rosary a t the Provencal town of Vence
(though he was so crippled by a r t h r i t i s t h a t he worked a t i t f o r ,
four years from a hospital bed).
Justema: 	 A t Assy and a t D'Audincourt he called upon the t a l e n t s of Lgger,
Braque, Bazaine, Rouault, and Germaine Ricter t o design the
stained glass, the mosaics, the s t a t i o n s , and t h e crucifixes
that were needed.
I n the l a t e f o r t i e s t h i s was international news. And by
the time I f i r s t v i s i t e d Europe i n the l a t e f i f t i e s , every
European country had a few ultra-modem churches a l l ready f o r
C 

the changes t h a t were t o be made i n the r i t e s following the
f i r s t session of Pope John's Vatican I1 Council which convened
i n the autumn of 1962.
Meanwhile, here i n the States, once again small groups
of a r t i s t s had begun t o translate, a s it were, old t r a d i t i o n s
i n t o new s e t t i n g s , and your interviews, Kai, a r e t o record the
individual e f f o r t s i n the l i t u r g i c a l a r t movement i n the San
Francisco Bay Area between the years 1946 and 1968.
Conversion, and Study Tour of Benedictine Monasteries
DuCasse: 	 Well, Billy, you certainly show t h a t your i n t e r e s t i n t h i s whole
movement goes back q u i t e a ways, and so I ' d l i k e t o ask you when
-
did your i n t e r e s t i n religious a r t begin?
Justema: 	 It must have begun with m
y conversion a f t e r reading Thomas
Merton's The Seven Storey Mountain; I decided t h a t I had t o
become a Catholic, and I was baptized a t the Old Mission Church
i n Carmel, California, i n 1949. Soon thereafter I wanted t o
spend my f i r s t Christmas a s a Christian i n what I thought was
a Catholic country, namely Guatemala, and on m
y a r r i v a l there
Christmas Eve was, instead, greeted with firecrackers!
,
DuCasse: 	 Very Latin!
Justema: 	 And indeed, very noisy, especially when they went off i n the
apse and would explode down the c e n t r a l a i s l e !
I n Guatemala I was taken under the wing of a group of
Franciscan missionaries from, of a l l places, Brooklyn, New York,
and would go i n t o t h e v i l l a g e s with them on jeeps and on donkeys.
M
y convert zeal was, i n f a c t , so tremendous t h a t a t the end of
s i x months they thought t h a t I was destined t o be a monk.
So a Father Gabriel Sparacino wrote the abbot of M t . Angel
Abbey, a Benedictine house i n Oregon, about me, and I was asked
t o v i s i t them. I stayed i n the guest wing f o r almost a week, and
was accepted i n t o the community a s a candidate f o r the brotherhood.
Justema: After about s i x very happy months, however, I became restless.
Wanting t o know more about religious a r t , I asked permission f o r
a leave of absence of s i x months i n which t o view what was going
on and had gone on f o r thousands of years i n Europe.
-
DuCasse: About what t i m e was i t t h a t you v i s i t e d Europe?
Justema: Actually, i t was i n '51. It was j u s t a f t e r the Jubilee year,
but t h e Golden Jubilee of 1950 had been s o successful t h a t they
continued t o celebrate i t f o r another year!
DuCasse: Right, they did through '52, because I was
f o r t h e end of it! [laughter]
t h e r e i n '52, i n time
Justema: Well, I headed s t r a i g h t f o r Rome, of course, and had a letter
from the abbot of M t . Angel t o present t o Benedictine heads
throughout Europe. A l l t h e r e l i g i o u s accommodations i n the c i t y
were crowded, but I f i n a l l y persuaded the head--I don't know
what h i s o f f i c i a l t i t l e would be--of the Benedictine House of
Studies on t h e Aventine H i l l t o l e t m e sleep i n the b e l l tower.
Aside from t h e clamor of t h e b e l l s , I had a f i n e v i e w of t h e
Tiber River, and stayed i n Rome f o r two months, d i l i g e n t l y
making notes on over 200 of t h e 500 churches.
DuCasse: H
o
w marvelous! No wonder you got such a good background of t h e
early Christian churches, and a l s o down through t i m e , f o r Rome,
of course, has them a l l .
Justema: Yes. It undoubtedly provides u s with
c i v i l i z a t i o n .
a cross-section of Western
Then, a f t e r two months i n Rome, I decided t o do the grand
tour, and by t r a i n went t o Spain, then France, England, Holland,
down through Germany and Switzerland, and back t o m
y l i t t l e b e l l
tower.
I think t h e most i n t e r e s t i n g p a r t of t h e t r i p consisted i n
comparing t h e l i f e i n the d i f f e r e n t Benedictine monastaries.
For instance, i n England I spent four weekends a t four d i f f e r e n t
religious houses, and a t Prinash, on the Isle of Wight, they
support themselves by manufacturing a beautiful kind of stone-
ware pottery, while a t Buckfast, the l a r g e s t of the abbeys i n
England, I noticed t h a t t h e more mature and better-known a r t i s t s
each had t h e i r own studio, whether they worked i n tapestry,
stained glass, o r whatever.
I was a l s o struck i n the Netherlands--in Amsterdam and
Utrecht--with t h e extreme modernity of the churches, because
j u s t a s a t an earlTer t i m e northern Europe suddenly became
Justema: Protestant, i n the early f i f t i e s they suddenly became ultra-
modern. The stay a t Maria Laack was p a r t i c u l a r l y fascinating
because one of the monks there had worked i n the Vatican
Library photographing very ancient manuscripts i n color so t h a t
when he would project a s l i d e on the white walls of h i s c e l l
it looked l i k e an enormous fresco.
Then they insisted that I visit the famous jeweler Burch-
Korrodi i n Zurich, Switzerland. He was i n the process of putting
together again the monstrance belonging t o t h e Pilgrimage Church
of Einsideln, i n Switzerland.
DuCasse: Oh, yes. Another Benedictine monastery, incidentally, wasn't i t ?
Justema: Yes, and pure Baroque, a l l white and gold with great flourishes
of wrought iron, and cupids on pink or blue ceilings. Snow had
begun t o f a l l by t h a t t i m e , and the abbot of Einsideln said,
"The people i n town think t h a t we're a l o t of crazy old women
when they see us skiing down the slopes i n our black habits."
DuCasse: Oh, how marvelous!
Justema: Burch-Korrodi i s perhaps the most famous e c c l e s i a s t i c a l jeweler
i n Europe, and a chalice by him i s t o be treasured beyond metal.
The monstrance t h a t he was putting together must have been four
f e e t high and i t was e n t i r e l y encrusted with precious stones,
diamonds, rubies, and emeralds which had been hidden, the
monstrance having been taken apart and hidden during the war.
I never saw i t used, but it must be overpowering. Incidentally,
Einsideln is t h e home of one of the so-called Black Virgins.
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t ' s a great t r a d i t i o n i n Europe, there a r e many of them,
in Spain and i n the south of France.
Justema: Yes, and of course i n the South American countries.
Guatemala, f o r instance, a t Esquipulas.
I n
Decorating t h e Crypt of the Abbey Church of Mount Angel, Oregon;
Louisa Jenkins' Course and Subsequent A r t I n t e r e s t
Justema: Well, t o return t o the States. I was given t h e job of
decorating the crypt i n the new abbey church a t M t . Angel,
Oregon. I had seen a show of religious a r t some years before
a t the de Young Memorial Museum i n San Francisco, and had been
impressed by the mosaics of Louisa Jenkins and the s t a t u e s of
Frances Rich. So f o r a very minimal sum, Frances Rich made a
Justema: 	 life-size terra-cotta s t a t u t e of St. Joseph f o r m
y crypt, and
Louisa Jenkins designed the fourteen s t a t i o n s of the cross, on
whose composition we worked together, because the s t a t i o n s were
hung i n a long row against t h e r e a r wall of the crypt which
the seminarians used f o r t h e i r devotions, so we connected them
with a path t h a t rose and f e l l a s Christ made h i s way t o Calvary.
When Louisa brought t h e fourteen s t a t i o n s , which I had
commissioned t o be placed along the rear wall of the crypt under
the main b a s i l i c a church a t M t - Angel Abbey (she brought the
s t a t i o n s , appropriately enough, i n a s t a t i o n wagon!), I
prevailed 'upon her t o remain f o r two weeks i n order t o i n s t r u c t
seven o r eight of the more artistic-minded monks i n her mosaic
technique, which of course is unique i n t h a t i t u t i l i z e s the
material of magnesite which can be colored and thus give a
lightness t o a composition which would be missing i f the whole
surface was covered with tesserae o r s o l i d material.
I add t h i s because i t seems t o m
e t h a t i n t h a t fortnight
we s e t a precedent which should be resumed and spread widely
among r e l i g i o u s houses and particularly i n seminaries, where
there may o r may not be courses i n a r t . For such techniques
a s stained glass and mosaic a r e not only fascinating but highly
desirable f o r the decoration of churches.
Louisa's method of teaching was very d i r e c t , very modest,
very thorough. The seven or eight monks t h a t were selected t o
take the course came t o a basement room f o r several hours every
day, actually a f t e r the noon meal which was called dinner. She
began, a s a mosaicist must, with a firm surface t o which mesh
wire was attached. Then, such is the beauty of t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
technique, t h e colored magnesite can be put on i n sections and
does not harden t o a lovely matte f i n i s h f o r several hours.
Perhaps the most b r i l l i a n t piece was t h a t produced by
Louis La Barbara who was a Brother Candidate, a s I had been,
and, having taught a r t i n a Los Angeles high school f o r many
years, knew exactly what he wanted. F i r s t , on a piece of
plywood, he sketched i n a Madonna and Child with almost c u b i s t i c
simplicity--it looked i n f a c t l i k e a drawing by Juan G r i s made
with a broad black f e l t - t i p market. Then, a s prescribed, he
tacked on t h e "hardware cloth," and, b i t by b i t , a s needed,
l a i d i n inch-thick shapes of pastel-colored magnesite, outlining
each area with small b i t s of t h e conventional I t a l i a n opaque
glass called tesserae, before f i l l i n g i n p a r t s of h i s composi-
t i o n more solidly. The f i n a l r e s u l t was halfway between realism
and abstraction, a quality t h a t p r a c t i c a l l y defines contemporary
religious a r t .
Justema:
DuCasse:
Justema:
DuCasse: 

Justema : 

DuCasse: 

Justema : 

DuCasse : 

Though I was very happy a t M t . Angel, and the abbot paid m
e the
compliment of saying t h a t I was an exemplary monk--I guess
because I was scared half the time!--I decided t o leave t h e
c l o i s t e r and became the a r t d i r e c t o r of St. Joseph magazine,
and lived i n the workman's cottage which was a l s o occupied by
workmen who did the gardening and tended t o the c a t t l e and
various odd jobs.
Now, was t h a t magazine published by M t . Angel Abbey?
Yes, they a l s o published a German magazine called, I think,
Der B l a t t , which has only recently been suspended.
They were originally a German foundation, were they not?
Yes, t h e i r mother house i s i n Engelberg, Switzerland, which is
on the lake of Lucerne, o r a t l e a s t it's above the lake. You
reach it by a funicular t h a t goes s t r a i g h t up t h e s i d e of a
mountain with waterfalls leaping at you from every side.
Benedictines, a s you know, always l i k e t o occupy'high places,
a s a t Monte Cassino.
What with my work on the magazine and l i v i n g i n t h e work-
men's cottage--which was r i g h t next door t o the cemetery and
r e a l l y almost a fairy-tale s e t t i n g i n the middle of a great
grove of f i r and pine trees--I became involved with the
seminarians, of whom there must have been 200 a t t h e time.
They were always putting on shows, and one weekend I had asked
a friend of mine, Archibald MacLeish, i f we could produce h i s
radio s c r i p t The Son of Man, which they did very b r i l l i a n t l y ,
four of the boys t e l l i n g the story of Christ a s Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John t e l l i t i n the gospels, while the action was
being performed i n pantomime on a platform a t one end of the
gymnasium.
The seminarians a l s o put on a religious a r t show which was
another great weekend success, and one of the most sensational
pieces i n i t was a c r u c i f i x by a metal-worker who welded the
piece t h a t is used i n the Church of the Holy Cross, I believe,
i t ' s called, a t Sedona, Arizona.
Ah, yes. Marguerite Staude 's church.
Yes, and i t ' s described a s p r e t t y grim. [brief tape interrup-
tion].
And the name of the a r t i s t was?
Justema: 	 Keith Monroe, who supplied us with a two-f ood version for which
he asked only $100, and it was sold immediately t o a young
p r i e s t from Portland, and he could have sold twelve of them.
It was an almost skeleton figure l i k e one of the anatomical
drawings of Vasalio . [Vesulius? W.J.]
W
e showed an excellent cross section of a l l the work t h a t
was being done by sisters and often lay people throughout the
country.
DuCasse: 	 Did you do t h i s exhibit a f t e r the one that you saw i n San
Francisco i n 1953?
Justema: 	 Oh, yes, for I was still living a t M t . Angel.
DuCasse : 	
Did you perhaps use some of those a r t i s t s ? Did you engage some
of those a r t i s t s from that exhibit?
Justema: 	 Yes, though I can't, a t the moment, identify many of them.
DuCasse: 	 I think we have that l i t t l e catalogue here. [looking through
papers] Here we are. I thought you said t o m
e once something
about having used some of the a r t i s t s there.
Justema: 	 Well, Sister Mary Corita, who is now known simply a s Corita--
DuCasse: 	 Corita Kent.
Justema : -showed us a serigraph or two. Antonio Sotomayor supplied us
with a marvelous a l t a r piece done i n o i l with a superimposed
terra-cotta crucifixion on it. Helen Bruton sent us a mosaic.
Frances Rich sent us a small piece. Micaela, you sent us a
station, Station I X , Jesus nailed t o the cross, which was i n
cast stone. Mary Erckenbrack sent a marvelous t i l e . Jose
Moya Del Pino contributed a tempera of Franciscan monks. A l l
i n a l l there must have been forty a r t i s t s represented.
DuCasse: That's quite an extensive show.
Justema : And i t was attended by people from a l l over the Willamette
Valley, i n f a c t from a l l over Oregon; I think we had about 10,000
people i n three days. And many sales were made, and of course
the seminarians were extremely pleased. Several times every day
the boys i n the seminary modeled church vestments beginning with
some old fiddleback chasubles which were i n the collection of the
abbey and ending with chasubles of m
y own design, whic3 are now
a t the Chicago I n s t i t u t e of A r t , i n t h e i r permanent collection.
DuCasse: 	 Are those the ones t h a t you showed m e i n t h e reproductions i n
t h a t catalogue: "Raiments f o r the Lord's Service."
Justema: 	 Yes.
DuCasse: 	 Oh, i t ' s good t o know they're preserved.
Justema: 	 During t h e t i m e I was i n M t . Angel--about a year and a half
a f t e r I l e f t t h e c l o i s t e r I married a Doris McMullen, who had
been a widow f o r about s i x years, had two grown sons, and was
a marvelous weaver. So I moved from the workmen's cottage by
the cemetery down i n t o the l i t t l e town of M t . Angel where w e
had a s t r i n g of famous v i s i t o r s such as Father Reinhold; the
modern musician and member of The Six, Darius Milhaud; and the
Jewish composer Ernest Bloch.
Liturgical Arts Magazine A r t i c l e on Sources of Style
f o r Christian A r t
DuCasse: 	 Of course Father Rinehold was one of t h e most l i t e r a t e and
a r t i c u l a t e men on t h e l i t u r g i c a l movement, i s n ' t t h a t correct?
Justema: 	 Yes.
But perhaps the greatest friend I made a t t h a t time was
Maurice Lavanoux who was t h e e d i t o r of L i t u r g i c a l A r t s magazine
and president of t h e L i t u r g i c a l A r t s Society. The L i t u r g i c a l
A r t s magazine was financed f o r many years by a Mr. and Mrs.
Otto Spaeth of New York. It was a quarterly and had maprelous
reproductions of t h e most advanced a r t , o r a t l e a s t a r t of the
most advanced l i t u r g i c a l vision which was being produced a l l
over the world.
Maurice traveled f a r and wide t o c o l l e c t material f o r h i s
magazine. I wrote several a r t i c l e s f o r him, and e n l i s t e d the
help of the mural painter Jean Charlot, who was then l i v i n g i n
Honolulu and teaching there. H e had been p a r t of t h e Mexican
renaissance, and whereas Rivera, Orozco, and t h e others were a l l
communist-inclined, Charlot was a very staunch Catholic. H e
preferred t o l i v e out of the States. He supplied both -
St.
Joseph magazine, when I was i t s a r t e d i t o r , and the L i t u r g i c a l
A r t s magazine with marvelous caricatures and brush drawings
which considerably lightened t h e pages.
DuCasse: 	 I think f o r the record, we should mention the issues of
Liturgical A r t s which includes your a r t i c l e . I have i t right
here. It was November 1951, "Sources of Style f o r Christian
A r t . " And you -
did have very delightful i l l u s t r a t i o n s by
Charlot throughout your text.
Justema: 	 What I did i n t h e a r t i c l e , "Sources of Style f o r Christian A r t , "
was give a run-down of world-famous a r t i s t s beginning with Arp,
going through Balthus, Berman, de Chirico, Dali, Campigli,
Calder, Feininger, Giacometti, Dufy, Marini, Lipschitz, and the
others, and, based on what I knew of t h e i r s t y l e , suggest
what possible contribution they could make t o religious a r t .
DuCasse: 	 And t h i s was exactly i n the s p i r i t of PBre Couturier, who was
very w i l l i n g t o use the non-Catholic, non-Christian a r t i s t s
because of t h e i r p a r t i c u l a r talents.
Justema: 	 Yes.
DuCasse:. 	 Wasn't t h a t what you had i n mind also, Billy?
Justema: 	 Yes. The decisions were a l l based on style. For instance,
Mark Rothko I thought--and t h i s was anticipated i n a synagogue
that he decorated l a t e r i n great bands or areas of pure,
vibrating color--was a l i k e l y candidate f o r church a r t . Then
the attenuated sculpture of Giacometti appealed t o me a s being
very s p i r i t u a l i n character.
But Dali objected t o 3 objection t o the crucifixions he
was doing a t t h a t t i m e and using a s a model f o r t h e Blessed
Virgin h i s wife Gala. He was painting, of course, technically
i n a most marvelous manner, but so meticulously t h a t I dared
t o say t h a t a t any time we could expect t o s e e a Dali on the
cover of the Saturday Evening Post, which offended him deeply
[laughter] because he had j u s t entered the Church and s o r t of
taken over r e l i g i o u s a r t a s an extension of surrealism. I ' m
afraid a t that age I was r a t h e r a prude, a s I i n s i s t e d on
putting things i n categories [laughter] which I have long since
abandoned.
Of course i n my commercial designing I couldn't incorporate
any r e l i g i o u s motives, but I would occasionally, when I could
afford t o paint an exhibition 'of pictures f o r myself, do a
religious subject such a s a crown of thorns, showing nothing
but the thorny crown i t s e l f suspended i n space but with a white
rose where the face would be and a single p e t a l f a l l i n g a s i f
it were a tear.
Justema: Though I use secular subject matter, and m
y books on a r t deal
with pattern and design, I s t i l l consider myself, and always
w i l l , a religious artist.
DuCasse: Y e s , I think t h a t the t r u e a r t i s t i s a
can't help but be.
religious person, they
Justema: And the l a s t poem t h a t I wrote is a l s o the shortest,
goes l i k e this. It's called "Task." [reading]
and it
The day i s ended, the slowing wheel been stopped,
M
y orders a r e f i l l e d , the p o t t e r said,
NOW, but one thing remains.
HOW, with the time I have l e f t i n . t h i s f a i l i n g l i g h t ,
Do I give shape t o praise?
DuCasse: Oh, t h a t ' s very beautiful, t r u l y beautiful.
[brief tape interruption] The following a r e some after-
thoughts by my friend, Billy Justema.
Changes i n the Church,
A r t s Movement
and the Need f o r a New Liturgical
Justema: Micaela, i n the thirty-three years I've been i n t h e Church great
changes have taken place, a s everyone knows, but the most ironic
of a l l is t h a t Protestant churches have taken up religious a r t
a s a whole much more seriously than Catholics have continued t o
do, a f t e r making such an excellent s t a r t . I have a great friend,
Father Shepherd, a J e s u i t r e t r e a t master, with whom I sometimes
t r a v e l , and he can't pass a church or what appears t o be a church
without wanting t o inspect it. And we always think and hope that
it w i l l be a Catholic church (and i f he hasn't said h i s mass t h a t
day we can rouse the rector so t h a t he can say h i s mass with an
audience of one, a congregation of one).
The curious thing i s t h a t the most s t r i k i n g of the modern
churches, perhaps aside from St. Mary's Cathedral here i n San
Francisco, a r e Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, or what have
you. That's t o say, many of them have adopted the semi-circular,
theater-in-the-round e f f e c t , and t h i s I think is.psychologically
a mistake because I ' m told by p r i e s t s t h a t i t ' s very hard t o hold
the a t t e n t i o n of an audience that half-surrounds you. So t h a t
when we sacrificed the long, narrow nave and focused our a t t e n t i o n
on t h e high a l t a r with t h e tabernacle behind i t we dispersed
a t t e n t i o n q u i t e dangerously, s o t h a t nowadays the p r i e s t almost
always uses a microphone which d i s t o r t s the voice and is very
d i s t r a c t i n g t o the congregation.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, i t is. But I suppose i t ' s been very tempting f o r a r c h i t e c t s
t o explore t h i s architectural novelty.
Justema: 	 Yes, and many a r c h i t e c t s have come up with very daring exterior 

forms, though sometimes they don't s u f f i c i e n t l y consult the 

priesthood regarding c e r t a i n l i t u r g i c a l problems. For instance, 

t h e y ' l l put the baptistry on a balcony. 

DuCasse: 	 Yes, which i s n ' t a t a l l plausible!
Justema: 	 But t h e r e ' s apt t o be excellent stained glass, very simple, and 

modern statues, i f any, rather than the p l a s t e r s a i n t s of our 

youth. 

DuCasse: 	 You mentioned the cathedral i n San Francisco, and I know t h a t you
and I have discussed some of the e s t h e t i c aspects of it. Would
you l i k e t o say j u s t a few words about t h a t ?
Justema: 	 Well, I attend mass there every weekday morning at seven o'clock,
and though I disliked the s t r u c t u r e a t f i r s t - i t ' s been called a
washing machine, the bishop's hat, and-- .
DuCasse: 	 And various other epithets!
Justema: 	 Y e s . It is of course a marvel of engineering. The famous
I t a l i a n a r c h i t e c t P i e r Luigi Nervi was consulted regarding t h e
construction. But, though i t is arresting, there a r e too many
a r c h i t e c t u r a l elements, too many shapes involved. The church
i t s e l f is, again, perfectly square with the congregation i n a
semi-circle. The a l t a r i s very imposing, but I think perhaps
t h e greatest beauty of the church i s the baldachino by Richard
Lippold, the modern sculptor who came out from New York and has
hung over the high a l t a r a great pyramid consisting of perhaps
ten o r more thousand lengths of highly polished s t e e l pipe,
and i f the doors a r e open they r u s t l e i n the wind and r e f l e c t
the l i g h t s o t h a t the Holy S p i r i t r e a l l y seems t o be r i g h t at
your e a r a s well a s above you.
Unfortunately, economics being what they are, Father
O'Shaugnessy, the rector of St. Mary's Cathedral, said they
can't always l i g h t the baldachino because the spotlights high
up i n the tower--and i t is an immensely t a l l structure, as
anyone who has seen it knows--runs t h e i r monthly e l e c t r i c b i l l
up t o $8,000.
DuCasse: 	 Good heavens!
Justema: But i t ' s a glorious thing when i t ' s lighted, and every ceremony
i n the cathedral, because of the spaciousness, has great
solemnity and dignity. And some of the odd shapes which r e s u l t
from the high divided dome a r e soon forgotten i n the majesty
of the setting.
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t ' s very true. I think you and I discussed t h i s also
before, namely the sad f a c t t h a t there was not a harmonious
plan f o r the decorative p a r t s of the i n t e r i o r , and t h a t they
seem t o have been done at random.
Justema: Yes. Well, churches today a r e not b u i l t by one man, or even
two or three, but by a committee, s o that they usually end up
with a compromise, and everyone has t o be pleased.
I think we need a new l i t u r g i c a l a r t s movement because
we've learned a great deal i n the l a s t twenty-five years about
simplicity and the requirements of the l i t u r g y , which a r e some-
times ignored, as f o r instance with the theater-in-the-round
e f f e c t f o r t h e congregation. I don't say t h a t the long, narrow
churches should come back, but some solution should be found,
perhaps even balconies, so that the people would be closer, ,
because a s you know Catholics, f o r some reason, o r a certain
type of Catholic, though he loves h i s church, sits a s f a r away
a s possible from the a l t a r .
DuCasse: Yes, t h i s I could
I can!
never understand. I always sit a s close a s
Justema: I do too.
DuCasse: Perhaps there's a fundamental individualism t h a t was inculcated
somewhere along the l i n e .
Justema: Well, it's very perplexing t o the priesthood. They wonder why
do you come a t a l l i f you stay a s f a r away a s possible?
DuCasse: You're r i g h t . They're j u s t inside t h e door, s o t o speak, a s
i f they a r e going t o be trapped! NO, t h i s i s a very strange
thing, and even with .our new liturgy--well I say new i n quotes--
where they a r e trying t o bring us together as a comunity, i t ' s
very d i f f i c u l t . You s t i l l find t h i s reticence about p a r t i c i -
pation.
Justema: What makes me r e a l l y very annoyed sometimes is t h a t the
Episcopal and other churches have adopted so many of our more
t h e a t r i c a l practices, and often done them b e t t e r than we do.
What we need i s devout showmen. Because of course there is
q u i t e a l o t that goes on besides the high point of the mass,
which i s the breaking of the bread and the consecration.
Justema: But I won't get s t a r t e d on the subject of sermons. [laughter]
The main f a u l t , I think, is t h a t many p r i e s t s t r y t o t a l k
about too many subjects, s o t h a t f i v e minutes a f t e r you have
heard a mass you don't know what the sermon was about. They
begin with a homily, probably, from the Gospel o r the Scripture,
but then they think f o r comic r e l i e f they have t o t e l l a funny
story, and then they touch on p o l i t i c s . One very wise convert
friend of mine said, "I wish they'd forget the sermons!"
DuCasse: Most of the time one could .do without!
Were there any other things now t h a t you wanted t o add?
Justema: I think I've said it. I think t h a t t h e Catholic Church i n
America is q u i t e aware of its--what s h a l l I say?-misdemeanors,
i t s e s t h e t i c shortcomings, and t h a t t h e y ' l l be r e c t i f i e d a s
a r t education i s i n s t i l l e d i n the youth and we absorb and learn
t o evaluate a l l the tremendous changes t h a t have taken place
i n modern a r t i n t h i s century. W
e r e a l l y haven't assessed a l l
of those.
For instance, Picasso and cubism had no significant con-
t r i b u t i o n t o make. Matisse, whose favorite subject was
odalisques, proved t h a t he -
had. And I think i t was because
of h i s sense of simple, pure color and curved l i n e s always
with some subtle reference t o nature.
For me, one of the great joys of going t o an early mass
a t the Cathedral--the seven o'clock i s held before the Blessed
Sacrament a t one s i d e of the high a l t a r , and the r e a r of the
church i s e n t i r e l y of glass--is t h a t you can always look out
over the c i t y and sometimes see a glorious sunrise.
DuCasse: That's beautiful. A n a t u r a l mural a s it were.
Transcriber : Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Louisa Jenkins
G
R
O
W
T
H I N A
R
T AND SPIRIT
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1982 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- L o u i s a J e n k i n s
INTERVIEW HISTORY
EARLY INFLUENCES, AND COMMISSIONS FOR CHURCHES
ST. ANN'S CHAPEL, PAL0 ALTO, AND THE BOOK O
N MOSAICS
TRANSITIONS I N LITURGY, ART, AND IDEAS: TEILHARD DE CHARDIN
RETREAT ART WORKSHOPS
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Louisa Jenkins has been consistently motivated i n her a r t by her deep
f a i t h i n God, and the service of the l i t u r g y of the Catholic Church since
her conversion t o the Church s o many years ago. I have been fortunate t o
have known her from very nearly t h a t beginning.
The source f o r her inspiration i s deep and absorbing. It i s her l i f e .
She has executed a great variety of commissions f o r the Church o r related
patrons, such a s her mosaic mural on one of the buildings a t Holy Names
College i n Oakland.
Louisa participated i n the Catholic A r t Forum from its inception, a s
a founding member. Our friendship was based upon our mutual concerns as
Catholic a r t i s t s f o r the acceptance of contemporary art i n and f o r the
Church. This made i t a p a r t i c u l a r l y happy privilege f o r m
e t o have been
her interviewer f o r t h i s project.
The interview took place i n her beautiful studio home i n Carmel, with
her s c r o l l s upon the inner walls, and from balcony windows a breathtaking
view of the Santa Lucia Mountains and Point Lobos. It was a journey back
i n t o a time that had been so stimulating and inspiring f o r us both as a
shared experience.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please p r i n t or w r i t e clearly)
Your f u l l name i o u ~ s * J F / ~ K I / v ~
Date of b i r t h IVO'
: 30 18 q 8 Place of b i r t h A \vA C 0 wA VHT
F a t h e r ' s f u l l n a m e A ~ G u + T M E Y E R
Birthplace p 6 d P E R 5 f ~ b T G E R M A N Y
Occupation for k ~ i f C O M P ~ J - E
T S
Mother's f u l l n a m e A I Y ~ o I V I A 51170H.
Birthplace HIJ f $ f i P ( C . ~ > C C J CALI I
'
-
Occupation W-o v f ~ / t /rVGE. R
F E
mere did you grow up ? F ~ A T ~ C E
W A >If-
Present community
Education > y R $ v c ~ L ~ E D ~ E -
Special i n t e r e s t s o r a c t i v i t i e s T e l1- fiAR fi h/ ' P I f G
A L P I / E L 3
c b l v j r i o ~ ~
E - ~ I
.S d
r 14 M 1 N 6 s e R ~ L k
p l f i ~ ~ ~ +
S f 4 R T E D w 1 Tk fl O S H I C S
iii 

LOUISA JENKINS 

The scrolls of Louisa Jenkins represent onghuman being's efforts to translate
into visual form the unseen depths of cosmic experience, the spaces around
which we weave the strands of ordinary life.
"The scroll Isjust to delight. Delightthe deepswithin, nottake surface,"says the
82 year old artist. "You can only see a scroll by sitting quietly, doing, asking
nothlng. Nothing gazing at nothing."
Louisa, the daughter of a German composer who immigrated to America, was
born in 1898 in Montana. She spent her early youth in Washington State and
servedasa surgical nurse during thefirst World War. Latershe livedin Parisand
studied painting under the noted Russian artist Gonchorova. For the next 2'3
years, as a Californian, Louisa painted in oils and water colors in studios she
maintained in San Francisco, Carmel, and on Partington Ridge in Big Sur.
She attained reknown as a mosaicist following her first one man show at
Gump's Galiery in San Francisco in 1950. Over the next 18 years she undertook
numerous commissions including wall mosaics for Mount Angel Abbey near
Portland, Oregon; Mt. LaSalle Novitiate Chapel in Napa, California; the College
of Holy Names in Oakland; St. Ann's Chapel in Palo Alto; Vallombrosa Retreat
House in Menlo Park and St. Teresa's Church in San Jose.
Inrecognition of her significant influenceon liturgical art, St. Mary's Collegeof
Notre Dame in Indiana awarded her an honorary degree in 1957.
She began making scrolls after being introduced to deep sea diving. The
floating, translucent, ethereal world which she discovered beneath the ocean
hadsucha markedimpression on her psychethat ittransformed her life. And so
she ventured in new spiritual and artistic directions, directions which led her in
1963to aZen study center inJapan. Fromthis contemplative experience, Louisa
developed a new style of artlstic expression using collage with acrylics. These
"Accretions," as she called them, were the first evolutionary step toward scroll
making. They represented her fledgling efforts to bring to form a synthesis of
~ e s i e r n
and Easiern religion and philos~phy.Louiss now v*.oiLs oui of trsr
Carmel studio home.
In1973 a retrospective exhibit, including examples of her drawings, paintings,
mosaics, boxes and scrolls was held at the Monterey Peninsula Museumof Art.
Her scrolls were also shown with an exhibit on the history of parapsychology at
Kennedy College in Orinda, under the auspices of the Smithsonian Institute,
entitled Psl-Search.
~ o u i s a
is now writing a book on scrolls. In the introduction to the manuscript
she addresses her motivation to scroll making:
"It is impossible to stopthe flow of making. Evenif noone else looksat them, it is
part of my living. It is not only food for my psyche and my soul, but a means of
cleansing and renewing the invisible part of me... "
G
R
O
W
T
H I N 	
ART AND I N SPIRIT
[Interview date: September 10, 19821
DuCasse: 	 This interview with Louisa Jenkins i s being held i n her home i n
Carmel, California. Louisa Jenkins i s an a r t i s t of distinguished
and varied accomplishments. After her conversion t o the Catholic
Church, she turned her t a l e n t s t o the religious and eventually
l i t u r g i c a l a r t s f o r the Church. Louisa, the daughter of a
German composer who emigrated t o America, was born i n 1898 i n
Montana. She spent her early youth i n Washington s t a t e and served
a s a surgical nurse during the F i r s t World War. Later she lived
i n P a r i s and studied painting under the noted Russian a r t i s t
Goncharova. For the next twenty years, a s a Californian, Louisz
painted i n o i l s and watercolors i n studios she maintained i n San
Francisco, Carmel, and on Partington Ridge i n Big Sur.
She attained renown a s a mosaicist following her f i r s t one-
man show a t Gump's Gallery i n San Francisco i n 1950. Over the
next eighteen years she undertook numerous commissions, including
wall mosaics f o r M t . Angel Abbey near Portland, Oregon; M t .
LaSalle Novitiate Chapel i n Napa, California; t h e College of Holy
Names i n Oakland; St. Ann's Chapel i n Palo Alto; Vallombrosa
Retreat House i n Menlo Park; and St. Teresa's Church i n San Jose.
I n recognition of her significant influence on l i t u r g i c a l a r t ,
St. Mary's College of Notre Dame i n Indiana awarded her an
honorary degree i n 1957.
Early Influence, and Commissions f o r Churches
DuCasse: 	 Louisa, do you remember when you might have f i r s t become aware
of l i t u r g i c a l a r t and its worldwide movement? Did t h a t have a
s p e c i f i c beginning f o r you a t any time?
Jenkins : 	
I don't think t h a t I thought too much about a r t a s a career. I
was very busy a s a mother, with children, having marriages,
divorces, and the whole a r t world had taken a very secondary
place u n t i l about 1948, I guess, shortly before I was-- And
then, I had gone down t o Guatemala and had r e a l l y been excited
about the things t h a t were happening down there i n the churches,
i n t h e i r processions, i n a l l of the things, and I f e l t t h a t I
r e a l l y wanted t o go on with t h a t s o r t of work, become a part of
that type of thing. So t h a t was the beginning.
I think the f i r s t large work t h a t I did I did f o r M t . Angel
Abbey.
DuCasse: 	 The work t h a t you did f o r M t . Angel Abbey, you were commissioned
t o do t h a t by William Justema, weren't you?
Jenkins : 	
That's r i g h t . He came down and saw the things t h a t I had been
doing i n the way of mosaics and suggested t h a t I do t h i s , make
some s o r t of a preliminary drawing, and so f o r t h and so on, and
then take it up and present it t o the monks. I f they passed on
i t , f i n e ; i f they didn't, well then--
DuCasse: 	 S t a r t over again.
Jenkins : 	S t a r t again. So they did pass on i t , and t h a t was the beginning
of my career.
DuCasse : 	I know t h a t t h a t was very important t o B i l l Justema, because
he had been given. t h a t commission, a s you know, t o do the crypt
and he was trying t o get t h e best people he could t o do the
various p a r t s of it.
Jenkins : 	
With t h e young men using t h a t room i n t h e i r very formative years
a s novices it meant a l o t t o me, when I was up there not long
ago, t o see t h a t it was working out very well and the young men
still enjoyed that room.
DuCasse: 	 Once you mentioned t o me t h a t the young seminarians did some of
the work with you? Did you have them working on those mosaics?
Jenkins : 	
Well, a f t e r the mosaics were i n s t a l l e d they became very much
interested i n i t , so I stayed there three o r four months
instructing some of the young men. I ' v e always f e l t t h a t you
don't r e a l l y know something u n t i l you s t a r t teaching it, and
so a l l along with my work I was a l s o teaching o r giving work-
shops or lecturing on these same subjects.
DuCasse: 	 So they could a l s o have a deeper understanding of the whole--
not only the process but why the work was the way i t was.
Mosaics by Big Sur Artist 

Are installed in.

- . . . . - . -
Benedictine Monastery 

Fourteen exqulslte glsas mw
esic representations of the ate-
tlons ot the Cross, meds by
Louisa Jenklns, well known Pa-
ineula artist, have been Lnst.lled
in tho Benedictine monsatsrg of
Mouut Angel, a b a t e 40 mlles
from Portland. Oregon.
The mosalca were deslbed
a n d completed in the artid's
studlo hume on Partin+ Ridge
In the Big Sur, and transported
to the mogsatery ssriier &In
month to be niounted in the crgpt
chapel agalnst,~
well of softgmy
tone Both chapel and ststions,
two examplee of whlch are shown,
here, to left and right, are fresh-
ly modern in deslgn.
Mm. Jenkins hss made aae of
a rich variety of materisb b
creating her impressive wries of
stations. These materials include
ltalisa moaalce, fmgmtnt~ of
.	
stshed glass, crysta~s,marble
chips, trsvertlne a n d other
stones, islnglaes, and about 20
diflerent materials in tones of
gold.
Mounted sbont thrse Inches
apart, the 14 stations, each in-
dividual in its symbolism and
emoHond appeal. are bound to-
gether by t "path of life" which
.flows continuously through the 

14 deslgns. 

Mrs. Jenklns devotedathe pst
five months to this monumentel
task, hailed by those who have
seen the mosaics in all their
beau@ of spsrkilng color ss her
mssterpiece to date. She aad
.	
her son, Peter, accompsnled the
stations to Mount An~el
in order
to sssisl with their instalh6ton.
Dedication ceremonies wiU be
held a t a date to be s~ounoed
later.
Jenkins : Right, yes.
DuCasse: I think the a r t i s t i s innately a
A t times? Without meaning t o be!
teacher i n a sense, don't you?
Jenkins: Yes, I think sometimes i t ' s j u s t
I f e e l t h a t maybe the visual com
b i t e a s i e r than words, and s t i l l
i n words.
a means of
munication,
we struggle
communication,
you know,
always t
is a
o keep ideas
and
l i t t l e
DuCasse: 	 The work t h a t you did a t the Abbey was i n , I believe, 1951. And
a f t e r t h a t commission, t h e Novitiate Chapel f o r the Christian
Brothers i n 1954 was the next commission t h a t you did?
Jenkins: 	 It might have been. I traveled back and forth toor you know, t o
St. Mary's College i n Notre Dame, and lectured there and so forth.
DuCasse: 	 And, of course, you were writing the book too. [The A r t of Making
Mosaics, Louisa Jenkins and Barbara Mills; D. Van Nostrand Co.,
Inc., 19571
Jenkins: 	 Yes. And then a l s o I was going t o Regina Laudes and teaching
there somewhat. So these things a l l kind of interweave, and
I ' m not too c e r t a i n of the exact dates.
DuCasse: 	 I think t h a t you were involved with the l i t u r g i c a l a r t exhibit
a t the de Young Museum i n 1953 which Ruth Cravath and Ninfa
Valvo and several others were directing.
Jenkins: 	 Right.
DuCasse: 	 Do you remember any of t h a t p a r t i c u l a r involvement or did t h a t
seem t o you a t the time t o be a worthwhile, important project?
Jenkins: 	 Well, it was. A t t h a t time we formed t h i s l i t u r g i c a l group.
DuCasse: 	 Catholic A r t Forum, i t was?
Jenkins: 	 Yes. And it seemed t h a t t h i s was a means of creating work i n a
l a r g e r sense, not j u s t an individual sense, but a l s o i n more of
a community. A r t has t o be a s an individual, but i f it stays
j u s t a s an individual then i t f i n a l l y d i e s out, I think. So,
e i t h e r i n the i n v i s i b l e world o r i n the v i s i b l e world which was
the a r t show, i t was an important a r t forum.
DuCasse: 	 And i t was a l s o a means of education, and I guess t h a t was what
the A r t Forum was established for, t o educate lay people i n
accepting, l e t ' s say, the contemporary terms and contemporary
media and so forth.
. . . .
. .
. .
. . . .
. . . - . .. . . . .
The nacl mosaic STATIONS OF THE CROSS
. .
for Mt. Angel Abbey by Louisa Jenkins
-.
a souvenir of the Blessing
Swrday, July 19, by Father Gerald 1. Ryan, O.F.M.
THE
Benedictine mmmunizy of Mt. Angel Abbey, at St. Benedia,
Oregon, is now the happy possessor of what many consider one of the major
works of modern religious art anywhere in America. These fourteen Stdow
of the Cross by Louisa Jenkins of Big Sur, California,are unique in muny
ways. Their physical splendor should be evident to everyone. Less obvious,
perhaps, is their c o m p h mastery of an ancient and difiult craft. Mrs.
Jenkins works in true mosiuc,setting each bit of muterial by hcrnd as they did
at Ravenna, Constantinopk, and M o n r e a w m e s of the greatest examples
of mosaic art. The slightly "crude" look which results from this method is
quite intentional. A slick surface and a nuturalistic appearance are not
characteristic of true mosaic.
Moreover, as a distinguished modern artist, Mrs. Jenkins tras her own
highly personal style. This styk, though it continues the Byzantine tradition,
is much less naive than it may seem (
;first. In order to get her subtle
effects of texture she wes such umual materials as luva rock, iridescent
f u m e slag, crystal, quartz, pyrite, mica and varww metals(as well as the
traditional Italian mosaic g h ) setting them in areas of colored magne~ite.
But the greatest originality of these Stations lies in the thought,.study and
devotion that went into them. Many of her interpretations of the individuul
Stations, Mrs. Jenkins says, are the direct result of reading "Christ in His
Mysteries," by Abbot Marmwn, the great Benedictine scholur who died in
1923. Louisa Jenkins' own notes on her Mt. Angel Abbey Stations of the
Cross are on the following pages.
INTERPRM'ATION OF STATIONS
The clearest rulea for an artist are laid down by Jacques Mariain in "Art and
Scholasticism." I would l
i
k
eto quote his concluding rules, for however u n e u c c d y
they may have been followed, the artist hae tried to keep them in mind.
It must be intelligible. For it is there above all for the imtruction of the
people, it is a theology in graphic represeatation. The work must be
finished. I do not mean finished in the academic sense, but in the moat
material and humble meaning of the word. It is in the highest degree
fittine that nothine shall enter the house of God but work which is wen
d o n ~ a c c o m p l i e h ~
clean, permanent and honest This must clearly be
understood according to the peculiar style of the work and the meann . .
taken to achieve it .
Sacred art is in a state of absolute deuendence uwn theological wisdom. 

Considering the -tial inadequ4 of the h
e
a
n
t
i of &remion of

. human art in relation to the ,divine mysteries to which they are applied,
the frightful di5culty of expressing in a seneitive medium truths which
cleave the earth and sky and unite the most opposed realities, one would
even be inclined to think that sacred art. however rich it owht to be in
eeneibility and humanity, ought undoubtedly, if it is to a& a certain
spiritual fullness, to retain always some element of hieratic and so to
speak ideographicalsymbolism, and, in any event, of the strong intellectual.
ity of its primitive traditions.
A work of religious art ought to be religious. If it is not religious, it is
not beautiful, for beauty presupposes essentially the integrity of all the
requisite conditiom
In general the artist has endeavored to show not only the drama of the historical
events of the Paasion in themeslves, but also ae applied to our d
a
i
l
y living. So some of
the scenes are shown close-ups and some are shown in the distance or with just the
hands to suggest the living symbol of today.
The face and hands of Jesus and Mary are in gold, of the others in stone. The Way
of the Gose is in marble chipst o suggest a path; this b t h winds through the Passion.
It is also our path, therefore it is represented ae intersecting the figures of Chriet
Jesus and Mary. It starts at the bottom of Station 1and finally descends through the
tomb of Station 14As the Gown of Thorns is also one of glory, jewels are shown in
the thorns. The wooden cross in each Station is surrounded by gold, our most precious
Stdon 1 laus i s condemned t
o Stocion 2 luus bears His Cross
death The Goss is placed at the back of the
The siien-acceptance. Head. The intersection is left empty to
Bowl and water symbol of Pilate wah- indicate the eternal which can never be
ing his hands. reached in thislife. 'Take up your Cross
Mystical Vine suggested in robe. and follow me." Obedience in Station 1
Goss becomes bamer to earthly justice. imposes the Gose of Station 2.
Virtue: Obedience to lawful authority. Virtues: Acceptance of the Crose. Reso-
lutioa
Stution 3 	 Jesus faUs the first time
Crosses of humanity piercing His Cross.
Our falls are caused by imperfect Faith,
hesitation, fear of the outcome.
Virtue: Faith.
Station 4 	 Jesus meets His Mother
Cross becomes sword of Truth between
them. In the look between them Mary
realizes that He must go before her; it
is the renunciation of Mary. Sacrificeon
Mary's part of her Son now realized to
full extent ''Thy own soul a sword shall
pierce."
Virtue: Abnegation. .
StatMn 5 	 Simon helps Jesur curry
the Cross
The Cross becomes the monstrance car- 

ried before him.

Virtues: Cooperation. Fortitude. 

Station 6 	 ~eronicksVeil
The image of Qist on the veil is hung
like a banner on the Cross. Vera Icon-
image. It comes from pictures on an-
prepared linen cloth that were brought
to Rome in the period antecedent to the
3rd century.
Virtue: Compunction.
Station 7 	 Jesrrs faUs a second time
The fapde of Mt. Angel Abbey carries 

theshadow of the Cross. It is the Church, 

(the Benedictines and others) who have 

always helped us in our falls. The 

Church, the visible manifestation of

Christ in the world. 

Virtues: Repentance for our failures. 

Penance. 

Station 8 	 Jesus meets the Womenof
Jerusalem
The women mean humanity in general,
all mothers who have had to give up
their sons. The hand of Jesus is lifted in .
warning to indicate that the sorrow and
pain is turned back to u
s
. &Weepfor
yourselves and for your children ...
for if in the green wood they do these
things, what shall be done in the dry?"
Virtue: Fear of the Lord.
Station 9 	 Jesus fa& the third time
Jesus is prostrate, crushed beneath
Divine Justice. No other being has ever
borne it in its fullncm
Virtue: Humility.
Stution 10	 Jesu is Stripped of His
Gannets
The world's rude hands leave Jesus
with nothing, naked and beholden to
all. Again the path begins to climb.
Virtues: Chastity and Poverty.
Station 11	 lesuc is Miled & the
cross
The drama reaches a climax. S a d c e .
Each human being is firmly fastened by
Cod to an individual and personal way
of sacrifice. The red of martyrdom sur-
rounds Jesus' 	band.
Virtue: Resignation.
Station 12	 lesuc dies on the Cross
The C l i m a ~
Christ gives H
i
s soul back
to H
i Father. Complete abandonment
to God's Will even to death. (Dark night
of the Sod.) The opened sidegives forth
Blood and Water.
Virtue: Abandonment to God's WiU
Strrtion 13	 Jesus is taken down from
the Cross
After descentfrom the Cross, Mary holds
the body of her Son. Face of Jesus is at
peace. Grieving of Mother, end of sacri-
fice. Mary now transcends her grief, be-
comes Mother not only of her Son but
of all mankind. Cross indicated as lad-
der.
Virtue: Charity. Pity.
The path descends through the tomb.
The preparation for r e b i i The wind-
ing sheet, spices, are signs indicating
preparation for rebii. "By baptism we
die to sin, descend into the tomb, to
come forth resplendent in Grace."-Ab
bot Marmion, 0S.B. Somber, dark col-
ors.
Virtues:Hope. Patience.
It is hoped that the beholders, the ones making the stations, will discover their
own hidden symbols. A quotation from Heinrich Zimrner has application here: T o r
- -
-
true symbols have something illimitable about them. They are inexhaustible in their
suggestive and instructive power. The meaning have to be constantly reread, under-
stood afreah. We must never forfeit our proper humility and open-mindedness before
the unknown, and refuse to be instructed-refuse to be shown what has never yet
quite been told eithet to us or to anybody &"
If this M true of the mystery of symbola portrayed inadequately in art, how much
truer of the grand mystery of the Passion of our Lord! In this inexhaustible impin-
tion on which we meditate, the beholder transcends both the artist and the material
representation and lifts hie heart to the Lord.
. .
. . . . . . ,.- , : .- . . ..
. . ,
.
. ....
. . . . .
. . .. i . .
. . - , . . . . :
. .
. - ' .
. . . .
. - . ,
. . . .
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Histo7 of the Origin and Introduction of the Pwus 

Practice of the Path of the Cross. By Leonard of Port 

Maurice. . 

'
Catlwlic Encyclopedia 1912 Edition, VoL 15.
Christ in His Myskries. By Abbot Columba Marmion,
O.S.B.
Lost Lunguuge of Symbolism. By Harold Bayley.
Sytnbolj and Emblems of Early and Medahmd Christian 

Art. By Louisa Twining. 

2+mbolism in Christian Art. By F. Edward Hulme.
-

FOR CRIVATI DI#TRIBUTION ONLY.
Jenkins : 

DuCasse: 

Jenkins : 

DuCasse : 

Jenkins : 

DuCasse : 

Jenkins : 

DuCasse : 

Jenkins : 

DuCasse:
Right.
Your work was very i n f l u e n t i a l in t h a t because you used an
ancient technique, but you were able t o use i t i n a completely
contemporary manner.
Yes. I didn't go t o I t a l y and find out how they did t h e i r
mosaics u n t i l a f t e r I had experimented, thrown away, oh, a
year's work, more or l e s s , and established somewhat what I
wanted t o say. And then I went and saw what they were doTng
and how they were making mosaics. I a l s o was able then t o
establish a base f o r supplies and bring home the materials
and continue t o get the materials from them. Along with the
t r a d i t i o n a l materials I would use d i f f e r e n t things t h a t I f e l t
were incorporated i n the technique. I suppose p a r t of t h a t
came from my visit t o Guatemala.
Another p a r t of t h a t period, i n the f i f t i e s , what was important
was the Junipero Serra Shop. Were you involved with them?
Well, they were my friends. I didn't--I don't know--I bought
books there. [laughter] And they were m
y friends and they
s t i l l a r e m
y friends, but I didn't make any p a r t i c u l a r things
for them, none t h a t I can remember, I don't think so.
Among your e a r l i e r works was the Sophia mural f o r Holy Names
College i n Oakland which was dedicated i n 1957.
The college had moved from t h e i r old place on t h e shores of Lake
Merritt, and they had a new college and new buildings. I had
a personal friend there. A t the time she was called S i s t e r Luke;
she since has changed her name. [now S i s t e r Maria Luisa
Wolfskill] W
e were very anxious t o have something of a contem-
porary a r t form. She was i n charge of the a r t education, t h e i r
whole a r t department. W
e were very close together, and she
would come down t o Big Sur, and we worked on t h i s project and
submitted i t and they said, "Yes, go ahead."
Was t h a t not a combination of media?
Yes, i t was p a r t iron. David Tolerton also, who lived i n Big
Sur, on c e r t a i n of m
y things would collaborate with m
e and do
the iron part. So t h i s Sophia, which was dealing with Sophia
a s Wisdom with the symbols and s o f o r t h and so on, t h i s was
l a r g e and it entailed using men because there was no way t h a t
I could possibly do t h i s myself.
No, of course not. On such a large s c a l e and with such variety
of material. Didn't David Tolerton work with you on several
other of your works?
Jenkins: 	 Yes. Wasn't it David who did the ironwork on the Mustard Seed
Fireplace?
DuCasse: 	 Yes, t h a t ' s a t Vallombrosa also.
St. Ann's 	Chapel, Palo Alto, and the Book on Mosaics
DuCasse: I would think t h a t you may have worked on St. Ann's Chapel before
you worked on the ones f o r Vallombrosa, but w e ' l l check those
dates and 1'11 get them i n t o the record l a t e r on. It's been a
long time since I've been a t St. Ann's and I ' m a l i t t l e hazy
about j u s t what I remember.
Jenkins: Well, I did the baldachino up above the a l t a r , and then there
was a madonna which I did i n connection with David Tolerton i n
which the mosaic and the candlesticks which were of iron were
done a s one piece. So t h a t is very much i n use r i g h t now. I
had somebody t e l l i n g me about i t j u s t the other day.
DuCasse: Was the St. Ann's baldachino i n mosaic?
Jenkins: 	 Mosaic and iron. Yes, t h a t was very important t o me because
t h a t was when I f i r s t met Clare Boothe Luce, you see. She heard
about m
y work and she was very much interested i n St. Ann's
Chapel; it was i n memory of her daughter. She had asked t h a t
I come and see her there, so we met a t the chapel and discussed
what t o do. She asksd t h a t I do t h i s , and t h i s became a very
important friendship, a very close friendship through the years.
DuCasse: 	 I n some of the material t h a t you've showed me,the mosaic t h a t
you did f o r Vallombrosa was i n an exhibit i n San Francisco
during 1961.
Jenkins : 	
Yes.
DuCasse: 	 Something e l s e t h a t I want t o go i n t o is your book t h a t you did
on mosaic, one of the f i r s t r e a l l y scholarly and y e t p r a c t i c a l
books on t h e making of mosaic a f t e r mosaic began t o be recognized
a s a twentieth century medium again.
Jenkins: 	 Yes, i t was the f i r s t one because we hadn't been doing mosaics
i n t h i s country. It was purely I t a l y , and things t h a t had been
i n s t a l l e d had been brought over from I t a l y .
Jenkins: I wouldn't have been able t o do t h a t along with a l l the other
work I did except t h a t Barbara M i l l s , my daughter, r e a l l y took
over the writing and the whole thing. I wrote i t out, but, you
see, writing things out means t h a t it must be r e a l l y edited by
somebody, otherwise it i s of no use a t a l l . So I think the
person who does the e d i t i n g should have the c r e d i t f o r the book!
[laughter] It was r e a l l y a happy collaboration because I am
much b e t t e r i n t h e visual a r t s and she is r e a l l y very good i n
verbalizing things. And very few people can excel a t both. I f
you're r e a l l y going t o be a visual a r t i s t i t ' s very hard t o t a l k
about your work.
DuCasse: It's true, very true.
Jenkins: Although you can give workshops and you can l e c t u r e with s l i d e s
and so f o r t h and so on, t h a t i n a way is teaching, but when i t
gets i n t o trying t o define your own works and what your own
i n v i s i b l e ideas a r e and how you then make t h a t i n v i s i b l e a r t i n t o
a concrete form, then you j u s t kind of shrug your shoulders and
say, "Well, you know, it's a l l a mystery anyway," and let i t go
a t that.
DuCasse: One of t h e reasons t h a t you received your doctorate from Notre
Dame was because of the accomplishment of having produced t h a t
very f i n e book t h a t was a r e a l need a t the time.
DuCasse: I wondered i f you have any personal observations about a r t a s
p a r t of the l i t u r g y when you f i r s t came t o know about it, when
you were f i r s t working with it.
Jenkins: Well, i t was a time of transition. You remember t h i s was a time
when the Church was opening up and losing i t s c r u s t , a s i t were,
that it had had f o r centuries. I don't remember the exact date
when they changed over; t h e r e was no more Latin and t h e l i t u r g y
was radically changed much t o the disturbance of many people,
but i t was wonderful f o r m
e because I love change, I love t o be
i n the beginnings of things, I love t o t r y something new. It's ,
r e a l l y a chore t o go back and t r y and do something the same way
again, but i t ' s very easy t o move onto something new. So i t was
a time i n which most anything would go.
[At t h i s point the telephone rings and the tape recorder
i s turned off. The remainder of t h i s s i d e of tape was not
recording properly, and so DuCasse has made a note regarding what
was said during t h i s time.
Jenkins: 	 The discussion regards Jenkins's friendship with Clare Boothe
Luce a f t e r t h e i r meeting about the work f o r St. Ann's Chapel.
This friendship, notes DuCasse, "brought about a complete change
i n Jenkins's technique." DuCasse then i n s e r t s i n her notes the
following biographical excerpt from another source and s t a t e s
that t h i s covers what Jenkins talked about while the tape was
not recording:
"She began making s c r o l l s a f t e r being introduced t o deep-
sea diving with Clare i n Hawaii. The f l o a t i n g translucent,
ethereal world which she discovered beneath the ocean had such
a marked impression on her psyche t h a t it transformed her l i f e .
And so she ventured i n s p i r i t u a l and a r t i s t i c directions,
directions which led her i n 1963 t o a Zen study center i n Japan.
From t h i s contemplative experience, Louisa developed a new s t y l e
of a r t i s t i c expression using collage and acrylics. These
'Accretions,' a s she called them, were the f i r s t evolutionary
s t e p toward s c r o l l making. They represented her fledgling
e f f o r t s t o bring t o form a synthesis of Western and Eastern
r e l i g i o n and philosophy. Louisa now works exclusively i n t h i s
medium. "1
Jenkins: 	 The whole philosophy and--it's more than philosophy, m
y whole
r e l i g i o n took a change then because t h e r e ' s no way t h a t you
can be a follower of Teilhard de Chardin and deal primarily i n
the past, i n the t r a d i t i o n . He says t h a t he's a pilgrim of the
future, and so t h i s is why even talking about the past i s r e a l l y
d i f f i c u l t because your mind i s i n a d i f f e r e n t place. You're
dealing i n ideas and i n the things t h a t a r e happening and t h a t
you see projected. So i t ' s r e a l l y d i f f i c u l t t o follow Teilhard
and s t i l l remain i n the Church a s an i n s t i t u t i o n . And t h a t
requires a c e r t a i n s t r e s s , and I think t h a t s t r e s s i s very good
inasmuch a s it forces you i n t o new things, new creations, new
ideas, because without the s t r e s s you j u s t go on i n the same
old way of thinking.
DuCasse: 	 True, true. And of course t h i s was probably the reason t h a t
Teilhard's work was suppressed i n h i s lifetime, and once it was
allowed t o come out and scholars began studying it they realized
t h a t there was nothing t h a t should have been suppressed i n i t ,
but it was d e f i n i t e l y something f o r the future.
Jenkins: 	 Well, they don't use it s t i l l . They don't teach Teilhard i n
the seminaries, they don't teach i t , you don't find courses i n
it. The theology is a thing of the past.
DuCasse: 	 And h i s whole theology was r e a l l y of the future, wasn't i t 2
Jenkins : 	
Right.
DuCasse :
Jenkins :
DuCasse : 

Jenkins : 

DuCasse:
Jenkins : 

DuCasse: 

Jenkins : 

DuCasse : 

Jenkins : 

But of course i t has received acceptance.
Very much acceptance i n the new consciousness movement. If you
find people l i k e Marilyn Ferguson and Capra, Rupert Sheldrake,
a l l the people who a r e moving now, they acknowledge t h a t
Teilhard i s t h e beginning of t h i s whole thing, and he's very
much i n the forefront i n science and religion. So you find him
there but you don't find him, say, down a t the mission. And
t h a t i s the Catholic Church a s an i n s t i t u t i o n , t h a t ' s not where
he is.
But he has gained a tremendous following among thinking Catholics!
W
e j u s t had h i s centennial, and I had spent three years i n doing
s c r o l l s on the Teilhardian themes which I called t h e s t a t i o n s
of l i f e , equating them with t h e s t a t i o n s of the cross t h a t I'd
done a t M t . Angel Abbey. And these circulated the United States.
It's i n t e r e s t i n g , you see, t h a t these things a r e very, very much
i n the consciousness of the people.
Your development of s c r o l l s and your own s p i r i t u a l development
s o r t of went together, didn't they?
Right.
And t h i s is something you're s t i l l pursuing, i s n ' t t h a t true?
Naturally. I mean, a s long a s you a r e creating things, you go on
creating them u n t i l physically the body gives out, which w i l l
happen eventually. I think t h a t most people a r e saying now, and
now I ' m judging, i f you continue on working your work gets b e t t e r ,
a t l e a s t t h a t ' s what you think! And it seems very reasonable t o
m
e because what comes out a s a concrete thing on paper o r some-
thing i s j u s t what is going on within your own consciousness,
and i f you a r e moving forward a l l t h e time then naturally the
work gets better.
Your technique i t s e l f has developed. There's been very d e f i n i t e
evolution there. It's i n t e r e s t i n g tome t h a t you began with such
a very tangible kind of material and now the materials that you're
using a r e , i n a sense, intangible; they give t h e impression of
being that. It's extraordinary t h a t beautiful lightness t h a t they
have.
I think with these very t h i n Japanese papers that you could express
t h a t watery world which had such an e f f e c t on me. I go back t o
t h a t over and over. It was as though I'd made a r i g h t about-face
from the heaviest i n t o t h e most f r a g i l e . And I think t h a t t h i s
euphoric s t a t e t h a t you get i n t o when you a r e painting these
papers and working i n t h i s expresses very well what Teilhard i s
saying. So I find myself comfortable with it.
Retreat A r t Workshops
Jenkins: 	 Did we touch on the r e t r e a t a r t workshops? W
h
y don't we t a l k 

about t h a t ? 

DuCasse: 	 Yes, I would l i k e t o have you do that.
Jenkins: 	 This is an a r t i c l e , by m
y daughter Barbara M i l l s , t h a t was the
cover a r t i c l e i n St. Joseph's Magazine, which was published by
the M t . Angel Abbey. (This magazine i s discontinued now.) This,
i n 1962, showed the a r t r e t r e a t workshops t h a t we did i n
connection with Father Thaddeus Yang, O.S.B. These were a t St.
Andrew's, near Palmdale.
I, with the monks and my son, put up two geodesic domes.
W
e had t o have a place t o work. This was r i g h t i n the beginning
of the geodesic domes, the portable kind, and a l o t of my ideas
i n space and time were influenced by Bucky Fuller. He used t o
come and stay with me a t Big Sur. I f e l t very happy going on a
space continuum of h i s , you see.
DuCasse: 	 Definitely.
Jenkins: 	 Father Thaddeus had j u s t recently died. Also we had Jean Varda
here who I got t o come down and do some. It was r e a l l y very
exciting t o watch these people c r e a t e things when they didn't
even know they had the possibility.
DuCasse: 	 You were the one r e a l l y who instigated the a r t workshops a t
St. Andrew's Priory?
Jenkins: 	 Right. I had t h i s idea t h a t we should use other things besides
words i n our r e t r e a t s , and there was no reason why we couldn't
use visual things o r make things. But t h i s was a very new idea,
and I traveled a l l over. These monks who came from China had
already had enough of a shakeup so they were willing t o accept
a new idea! But they were the only ones, so t h i s was r i g h t a t
the beginning of that.
DuCasse: 	 That was i n 1962, and we a r e s t i l l presenting such r e t r e a t work-
shops i n 1982.
Jenkins: 	 W
e also used body work, we did massaging of f e e t on each other,
we did a l l s o r t s of exercises of yoga and so forth. It was trying
t o get t h e whole person-involved i n it. And some of those I did
up a t Santa Barbara a t the Immaculate Heart place, Casa Maria.
Jenkins: 	 I did the tabernacle doors f o r Marguerite Staude's chapel i n
Sedona, Arizona. That was r e a l l y a beautiful building; i f there
ever was a church t h a t I liked t h a t was it. I WAS very happy
t o be a p a r t of that. I think it took the p r i z e f o r architecture
t h a t year.
DuCasse: 	 You r e a l l y had some wonderful places t o do your own work and t o
express your own feelings about things.
Jenkins: Right. And wonderful friends t o help. I think i t ' s impossible,
there's no way t h a t an a r t i s t can be a hermit. I think you have
t o have silence, you have t o have areas i n which you're
absolutely alone and i n solitude, but you have t o keep i n touch
with your fellow a r t i s t , with your friends; there's no way t h a t
you can j u s t be a hermit. You have t o l i v e your l i f e , and t h a t
i n i t s e l f keeps you i n a way on balance! [laughter]
DuCasse: 	 Yes, true! Probably one reason why y o u r i d e a f o r these workshops
a t St. Andrew's was so beautifully received and implemented was
because t h a t is t h e s p i r i t of the Benedictine r u l e of work and
prayer. And so t h i s was a perfect way of,conducting r e t r e a t
exercises, bringing i n the t o t a l involvement of the individual
person. Let's hope they won't f a l t e r too muchbecause sometimes
i t ' s d i f f i c u l t .
Jenkins: Well, everything changes; everything e i t h e r grows o r it disappears
and something new w i l l come up. There's no way i t ' s going t o
stay the same. I think t h a t r i g h t now up a t Redwoods Monastery
is where I find they understand more and r e a l l y appreciate more
of the contemporary s c r o l l than any l i t u r g i c a l church t h a t we
have i n t h e United States.
DuCasse: 	 Is t h a t Whitethorn?
Jenkins: 	 That's Whitethorn.
DuCasse: 	 And they a r e t h e Cistercian nuns, aren't-they?
Jenkins: 	 Yes. They a r e enclosed, but, a s I say, they a r e grounded but
not stuck! [laughter] And t h a t ' s exactly the way it should be,
you see. 	 Of a l l the places, a s of now, they come closest t o m
y
work and the expression of t h e work and my relationship with
them.
DuCasse: 	 I ' m sure they have some of your s c r o l l s , don't they?
Jenkins: 	 Yes, and I think it was m
y greatest compliment t h a t I've ever
had i n m
y whole l i t u r g i c a l l i f e because they do not put things
on t h e walls. They have a plain block f o r an a l t a r . They keep
Jenkins: t h e place extremely a u s t e r e , and t h a t ' s t h e way it is. But they
bought two l a r g e s c r o l l s . One is a t t h e entrance t o t h e chapel
and t h e o t h e r , I don't know where it is.
That is t h e monastery t h a t Thomas Merton v i s i t e d j u s t before
he l e f t . H e was very c l o s e t o them, s a i d t h a t h e was coming back
t o them.
DuCasse: Well, I think t h a t probably we have gotten a s much a s we can f o r
today, don't you think?
Jenkins: I t h i n k so; I think we've finished everything.
Transcriber : Joyce Minick
F i n a l Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance o f Relt.gious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
S i s t e r Maria Luisa Wolfskill
RELIGIOUS A
R
T F
R
O
M THE POINT O
F VIEW O
F AN A
R
T TEACHER
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of t h e University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Sister Maria Luisa Wolfskill
INTERVIEW HISTORY 

EARLY AWARENESS OF THE LITURGICAL ARTS MOVEMENT 

LOUISA JENKINS' WORK AT THE COLLEGE OF THE HOLY NAMES 

TEACHERS, CRITICS, EXHIBITIONS, AND THE MISSION SERIES 

BENNY BUFANO, AND JEAN VARDA 

FABRIC WORKS: SUBJECTS AND INSPIRATION 

RITE OF INITIATION FOR CHRISTIAN ADULTS 

ETHEL SOUZA, AND THE SERRA SHOP 

A SENSE OF ACHIEVEMENT 

INTERVIEW HISTORY
S i s t e r Maria Luisa Wolfskill is a person of many t a l e n t s . The greater
p a r t of her l i f e has been spent i n the exercise of her considerable g i f t s as
a painter, along with her vocation t o the religious l i f e and its expression
i n teaching i n the schools of her order of S i s t e r s of t h e Holy Names of
Jesus and Mary.
I met S i s t e r Maria Luisa during the early days of the Catholic A r t 

Forum. W e found we had much i n common a s a r t i s t s and a s a r t teachers a t 

college l e v e l , a s w e l l a s our common d e s i r e t o see contemporary a r t forms 

accepted i n American Catholic churches. 

Our friendship continued these many years, i n t o our retirements--she
following me by a couple of years o r so. Again i n common, we have each
chosen new d i r e c t i o n s i n our retirement. W
e have welcomed t h e changes,
i n t e r n a l and external, which have allowed us t o pursue other f a c e t s of our
t a l e n t s . But such changes did not prevent us from enjoying a nostalgic
r e t u r n t o a most stimulating and inspiring period of our l i v e s , our p a r t i c i -
pation i n t h e renaissance of l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n t h e Bay Area.
S i s t e r Maria Luisa applies t h e energy and enthusiasm of old t o her new
vocation, ministering t o the e l d e r l y and infirm shut-ins within t h e radius
of her Hayward convent, a s t r i d e her winged Moped! H e r sphere of influence
has changed and widened, rewarding her a s w e l l a s those who look forward
t o h e r coming t o them. She has t h e soul of t h e a r t i s t and t h e religious,
who sees Christ i n those t o whom she ministers.
The interview with S i s t e r Maria Luisa took place i n her living-work
room a t St. Bede's Convent i n Hayward. The walls w e r e decorated with
several of her own c o l o r f u l works, watercolors, s t i t c h e r i e s , photographs,
sketches, and one wall was almost completely lined with books. A l l is i n
a relaxed order, r e f l e c t i n g her own warm, a r t i s t i c but disciplined nature.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont , California
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
ii
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please p r i n t o r w r i t e clearly)
Your f u l l name
* y
Date of b i r t h 3 - I / - / 5 place of b i r t h fix d
Father's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation m u h u h r eh.
Mother's f u l l name ~!$bl%
Birthplace
Occupation
Where did you grow up ?
Education . r ' , L
A
- 3-/z%
- &a/ *-
L
/ J
Special i n t e r e s t s o r a c t i v i t i e s
RELIGIOUS A
R
T F
R
O
M T
H
E POINT O
F V
I
E
W O
F AN A
R
T TEACHER
[Interview date: April 8, 19831
DuCasse: Sr. Maria, would you give u s j u s t
ground?
a few d e t a i l s of your back-
Wolfskill: Well, I was born Norma Luisa Wolfskill, and I ' m a seventh
generation Californian. I was educated by the s i s t e r s t o
whose congregation I belong, and subsequently got m
y master's
degree i n a r t s from the California College of A r t s and Crafts,
and I began a t t h a t time t o teach i n college, specifically
our College of the Holy Names i n Oakland. I was there f o r
twenty-one years, most of t h e time i n the capacity of chairman,
and i t was there that I participated i n the Catholic A r t Forum
and hopefully made some impression on parochial school a r t
through the teaching of teachers.
DuCasse: When were you f i r s t aware of
a r t movement?
o r interested i n the l i t u r g i c a l
Wolfskill: I can't remember when I began t o read the Liturgical A r t s
magazine by Maurice Lavanoux, but I did read t h a t consistently
a l l through the time of m
y college career when i t was being
published, because I remember toward the end there i t no
longer was published.
DuCass e: True. I think i t was
t h i r t i e s . So t h a t of
the f i f t i e s , but
course gave you--
i t began i n the e a r l y
Wolfskill: An introduction t o it. Then I began t o look i n t o a l l the
examples I could find, Charlton Fortune's work i n the immediate
area, and then when I went t o Europe I was very interested i n
what was going on, particularly i n Germany.
DuCass e:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCass e:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
I ' m so glad t o hear t h a t , because I ' v e never r e a l l y discussed
these things with you before i n t h i s way, and I didn't r e a l i z e
t h a t you had traveled i n Europe and t h i s had been one of your
i n t e r e s t s a t the time. Maybe you could t e l l us a l i t t l e about
that.
Well, t o go back a l i t t l e b i t , a very dear and close friend
of mine was Yanko [Jean] Varda, and he had been i n the i n s t i t u t e
i n Paris, I forget its name, with Dom Couturier. Varda himself
had f e l t called t o the priesthood a t t h a t time i n h i s l i f e ,
but I always thought it was very i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t somebody I
knew knew the man who was instrumental i n bringing t h e great
a r t i s t s of our time t o work f o r the Church. D
o
m Couturier
said it was a very r a r e thing t o have the combination of a
holy person and an a r t i s t . And it was much more important t o
have a great artist--who a f t e r a l l had a s p i r i t u a l dimension--
working f o r the Church than t o have very inept, pious a r t i s t s ,
which had been the problem i n the nineteenth century. And so
we had some very v i r i l e , wonderful, exciting a r t going on p r i o r
t o World War I1 when everything seemed t o be terminated.
-0
That i s most i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t Varda knew P&,- Couturier. So
of course you must have seen many of the churches, o r a t l e a s t
some of the things which Pere Couturier inspired.
Yes, I did. But I didn't see a s much a s I intended because
I played everything by ear, and I remember one day I was going
t o stop a l l along t h e Blue Coast of France on m
y way t o Genoa
and I found myself i n Genoa t h a t night without having made a
single stop because I had such a wonderful s e a t companion! But
I didn 't care !
So you didn't get t o Vence?
NO, I didn't. I went r i g h t past i t , talking m
y head off.
Ah, too bad! Did you by any chance see the Church of Notre
Dame de Raincy?
I can't remember. M
y ten volumes of diary a r e r i g h t over there,
but I don't remember a l l t h a t I saw.
Oh, well, don't worry about that. I ' m sure you must have seen
many of them.
I remember wanting t o see the Opera House, but i t was closed
f o r restorations. The famous Jewish a r t i s t [Marc] Chagall's
beautiful murals a r e there, but I was denied that. I saw what
I could. Mostly i n Germany.
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolf s k i l l :
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
Well, you must have seen some fascinating churches i n Germany,
because of course they were i n advance of France i n the move-
ment. When did you f i r s t p a r t i c i p a t e i n the Bay Area i n the
l i t u r g i c a l a r t movement?
I would say t h a t when Fr. Monihan established the Catholic A r t
Forum I began t o go t o those meetings, and i t was there I met
the p a r t i c i p a t i n g a r t i s t s i n the area.
I ' m glad t o know that. I wasn't sure whether maybe you had
become a p a r t of it before t h a t , but we f e l t t h a t the Catholic
A r t Forum had been a pivotal movement.
Very, very important i n stimulating the a r t i s t s of the area.
And t o bring a r t i s t s together so t h a t they got t o know each
other and s o forth. That answers one of the questions I was
going t o ask you. Do you remember when you joined the A r t
Forum? Did you join near the beginning?
Oh, I ' m p r e t t y sure i t was close t o the beginning.
It was 1953 when i t began.
Well, it wouldn't have been t h a t early because I didn't get t o
college till '55, and so I don't think I s t a r t e d t o p a r t i c i p a t e
till I was on t h a t l e v e l of instruction.
Were your subjects, from t h e beginning when you were painting
o r doing your own work, were they primarily religious?
No, when I got i n t o f a b r i c s I began t o do wall hangings t h a t
were religious i n subject matter. Previous t o t h a t and by and
large I ' m a watercolorist, and although I don't have a green
thumb with plants, the minute I pick up a brush things s t a r t
t o "grow"! And I remember one time when I had an exhibit a t
the Jewish A r t Center, o r t h e i r Recreational Center--I forget
the name of t h e i r place down there by Altenheim--but anyway
one of the persons who was viewing i t said, "I don't know who
did t h i s , but whoever it is, every one of these paintings is
f u l l of joy." And it used t o worry me t h a t I wasn't a
religious painter i n the sense of subject matter, but t h a t
r e a l l y gave m
e a great u p l i f t because I remember reading t h a t
Newman said, " T h e i n f a l l i b l e s i g n of the presence of the Holy
S p i r i t is joy." So, t h a t sent me on m
y way, and I didn't care
whether I was trying t o butcher the Madonna's face o r not!
DuCa s s e : Well, you were j u s t going along with what ~GreCouturier had
begun, which was t o get the essence rather than j u s t the
surface, which had been so sorry i n the century before.
Wolfskill: I did only one paintng of Our Lady, the r e s t were r e l i e f s and
embroideries. And the most beautiful one was stolen from our
chapel.
DuCasse: No. The chapel up i n Oakland?
Wolfskill: Yes.
DuCasse: H
o
w t e r r i b l e .
Wolfskill: C'est l a vie.
DuCasse: C'est l a vie. Such i s the a t t r a c t i o n of a r t sometimes.
Louisa Jenkins' Work a t the College of Holy Names
DuCasse: I was interested i n when you became a friend of Louisa Jenkins
because I know that t h i s was a wonderful association f o r her
a s w e l l a s f o r you. Naturally your friendship probably came
before she did the mosaic mural a t the college.
Wolfskill: Actually i t didn't, Kai. Don't you remember? W
e had a blank
wall a t the new college campus, and I think t h a t was '57. The
question w a s posed t o me by the s i s t e r i n charge of a l l the
operations, What s h a l l we do with t h i s wall?"
DuCasse: This was when you were chairman of the a r t department?
Wolfskill: Yes. And we had j u s t arrived
"We have a blank wall there.
with .it?"
a t the new campus, and she said,
What do you think we should do
I said, "Are you kidding?
ask?"
Do you r e a l l y mean what you
And she said, "I mean it."
I said, "You should put a mural on it."
"What kind?"
I I
Mosaic. 'I
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolf s k i l l :
DuCasse:
"Well, who would do i t ? "
"Louisa Jenkins. "
And she said, "Do you know her?"
I said, "No, but I know somebody who does."
Now, actually I had heard her l e c t u r e and seen her work up
a t M t . Angel on s l i d e s a t the Catholic A r t Forum presentation.
So I phoned my friend, Micaela DuCasse, and I said, "Kai, how
can I get i n touch with Louisa?" And she said, "She's going t o
be spending the night with me, t h a t ' s how!"
H
o
w t e r r i b l e t h a t I should have forgotten that!
And I j u s t thought, 'Well, t h i s is divinely ordained."
It was.
So I phoned her, and she came over f o r an interview. She did
about s i x months of research on i t , and then of course i t was
i n s t a l l e d and unveiled with solemn high ceremony. And i t became
the pivotal point of the campus, but a l s o i t was an experience
f o r the a r t department, including the i n s t r u c t o r s and the
chairman, t o have that association with her during t h a t time.
The i n s t a l l a t i o n was made actually by some Venetian
craftsmen during the Mass f o r the Feast of the Holy Name of
Mary. And of course the iron work on i t had t h e JM, the
vocables f o r our congregation, and so I j u s t thought i t was
t h r i l l i n g . It wasn't planned, but t h a t ' s what happened.
I s n ' t t h a t magnificent? On a tape I have done of Louisa she
spoke very highly of t h a t and how much she had loved working
on it.
The inaugural exhibit of the new gallery, which was the f i f t h
time I had moved the a r t department, of course I thought
belonged t o Louisa. So she came. That was during t h e time
t h a t Clare Boothe Luce was i n town campaigning f o r Goldwater,
and so -
she came t o see the mosaic. And t h e i r association--
one had taught the other deep-sea diving and mosaics respec-
tively.
Yes, Louisa spoke about that. The deep-sea diving opened up
a whole new s p i r i t u a l world t o her which was so fascinating.
Beautv Produced on Blank Wall :

: .
The head is that of Sophia,
archtype. the Of true
wisdom to whom Solomon dedi-
cated his Book ,jf wisdom in
the Old ~estament-Tor it is
she that teacheth the knowledge
of God, a p is the chooser of
His works.
'FluidJy formed steel rods,.
leading from the head into the
three panels, suggest wave
lengths of power and light com-
municated bthe three academic
areas:
-Philosophy and Religfon, a
panel dfvided into three bands
of color representing the three
divisions of the universe as we
know it: Earth, sky, water. An
iron J stands for the Holy Name
of Jesus - "In the Name of
Jesus let every knee bow of
those that are in heaven, on
earth, and under the earth" (In.
h i t , Feast of the Holy Name).
-Arts and L
e
t
t
e
r
s
, one half
the panel presenting a staff of
Gregorian chant, one of the ear-
-Monitor photo ,b7 Bw Dt Ar.so&
'\
Artist and Aide
Mosaicist Louisa ~enki&has enthu- of East hall, new College of Holy
siastic helper in Sister Luke as I Names campus in Oakland. Sister
"Sophia Mural" takes shape on wall I heads college art department.
..
liest forms of music; the other
showing a scroll =presenting
letters and learning. Ironwork
here terminates in the letter M
for Mary.
N a M Sci*ces whose pane1
contains orbits of revolving
atoms, symbolic of science's ex-
plorations today.
Commissioned last year, Mrs.
Jenkins began her work in Ad-
vent at her Big Sur studio. She
literally started with ''nothing
but the image of a bare wall"
a f t e r Sister Emilie, CHN, di.
rector of development, and Sis-
ter Luke, head of the art de
And I did, reading It clear
through Hence the theme d
"phis"
Next came sketches, later
translated into scale "cartoons"
of the mural's elements. Colors,
texture, and type of mosaic ma-
te- were decided upon as
she worked out the drawfngs-
In May of this year she re-
ceived an honorary doctorate of
laws from S
t
. Mary's college,
Indiana, for her contribution'to
religious art. Her book "Mosaic
Making" will be published this
fall.
samples of each were glued in
place immediately while the idea
was fresh.
Fellow Fu=tIstGordon Newell
did the sand molds for casting
of the bas relief forms. Iron
work was produced by Judson
Pacific Steel.
Jenkins here reminded
that tdmosaic is one
that depends on the work and
cO*~eration of m a nY People.
The artist has the idea, works
out the design, puts the ele-
ments tugether - but where
would he be without transport
experts to move the finished
parfment, promised to allow her
a free in the desm
:
,I From the architects she had
I
the dimensions of the wall, then
not even built. ,
'
'
I
weat honle," she said,
''and @st began to think.
'What is a college? It's a
p h e to mek wisdom Wis-
dom? There's a whole book
by that name in the Old Testa-
ment. Why not look there?'
work to the site, without skilled
workmen who can hang it ln
place?"
Full effect of a mosaic can
be gained only from a distance.
How does a mosaicist know
what color tile to place where?
"By feelhg, by experie6ce
-+nd by stepping back occa-
slonally for a look," she
ahuckled. "My stadlo is 70
feet long."
As the mosaic went up, piece
by piece, Mrs. Jenkins had oth-
er helpers besides the work-
men. With her on the scaffold-
ing have been girls from Sister
Luke's art classe-d Sister
Luke herself, a white apron
covering her habit
'Tt's good for the students to1
be a part of the work that's to
be a part of their life," said the
artist
Ten years a mosaicist, after
long training in other forms of
a
r
t
, Mrs. Jenklns has won na-
tionwide renown for her designs,
many of them liturgical. Other
Catholic institutions that have
used her work are Mount Angel
Abbey in Oregon (stations of
the cross) and Mont La Salle
Novitiate, Napa (altartriptych)
Wolfskill: She had subsequent exhibits of her "concretions," a s she f i r s t
called them, but they were too diaphanous f o r such a horrible
word! And then another exhibit of her boxes, another phase
of her development, when she came back from Mexico and was
very much inspired by a l l kinds of images and a l s o b i t s of old
missals and icons and so f o r t h t h a t she saw down there.
DuCasse: That i s wonderful t o know. M
y memory, is foggy on c e r t a i n
aspects, and I couldn't remember whether you and Louisa had
known each other p r i o r t o t h a t , but t h a t ' s great, I ' m glad I
had a hand i n it. The Lord was pushing m
e around nicely!
Well, t h a t ' s one of the questions I had here, t h a t you
should t e l l us something about your s i d e of t h a t mosaic mural.
Teachers, C r i t i c s , Exhibitions, and the Mission Series
DuCasse: I see you have something there f o r us?
Wolfskill: Well, j u s t i n case I need t o refresh m
y memory, t h i s is a l l m
y
curriculum v i t a e on cards, because I ' m asked questions a l l the
time .
DuCasse: Oh, of course you are. Was it a f t e r t h a t then t h a t you s t a r t e d
t h a t s e r i e s of t h e beautiful watercolors of the missions?
Wolfskill: No, actually t h a t was prior. It was i n fulfillment of my work
f o r m
y master's of f i n e a r t s , and I wanted t o do something t h a t
inspired me, and instead of painting a l o t of disparate
paintings I wanted t o do something t h a t had a corpus t o it.
And naturally with my roots i n California history, my father
having brought m
e up on the folklore of California, it was
second nature.
Previously i n college when I got a chance t o w r i t e a paper
i n an English c l a s s , I chose Moorish architecture. Of course
the Moorish influence was extremely strong i n t h e Spanish
California architecture. So I had been fed mind, heart, and
soul on the missions from the beginning. I n f a c t , m
y father
used t o take us t o a l l kinds of public monuments and museums
and so f o r t h and we were frequently a t the missions. He would
head f o r the wine c e l l a r and I would head f o r the church!
[laughing]
Wolfskill: 	 One time when I was giving one of a s e r i e s of l e c t u r e s l a t e r 

I was t e l l i n g about a l l t h i s and he was present a t t h e l e c t u r e . 

Some people came up and congratulated him instead of me a t t h e 

end of it! And then he sent me an empty wine b o t t l e . I ' d 

never received a package from him i n m
y l i f e , and then I got 

t h i s empty wine b o t t l e . I was so delighted! 

DuCasse: 	 What a w i t t y gentleman your f a t h e r was.
Wolfskill: 	 So t h e next l e c t u r e was a t t h e Athen's Club i n Oakland, and I
was t e l l i n g t h i s present audience and they were j u s t roaring
they thought it was s o funny.
So anyway, I toured t h e mission with m
y b e s t f r i e n d who
was a d r i v e r , S i s t e r Mary Dolora, and f o r two weeks we photo-
graphed and sketched t h e missions and had a l l kinds of wonderful
adventures. When I came home I was supercharged, and i n
eighteen days I did eighty watercolors. That averaged s i x
a day. And I threw out f o r t y of them and kept f o r t y t o present
f o r m
y master's.
I d i d n ' t know i t a t t h e t i m e , but my professor, who was
Louis Miljar& was a l s o t h e professor of photography, s o h e
made a double set of s l i d e s . One he gave t o me and t h e other
he showed t o h i s c l a s s e s t o i n s p i r e them. I had had a very
hard t i m e g e t t i n g going s i n c e I had t o go t o summer sessions
f o r m
y work because I taught f u l l classes. So I used t o have
t o start and stop and s t a r t and stop, and I got s o discouraged
t h a t one day I went t o him and I said, ''Mr. Miljarak, why
don't you c a l l ' t h e dogs,' j u s t w r i t e t o m
y p r o v i n c i a l o r
phone her and t e l l her t h a t I c a n ' t paint." And he s a i d some-
thing t o me, I don't know what, but t h e next day he s a i d ,
"Whose work is t h a t on t h e wall? I don't recognize it."
I timidly r a i s e d m
y hand, and he s a i d , "I c a n ' t b e l i e v e
it.'' And then he t o l d t h e c l a s s what had happened. He said,
"I have no i d e a what I s a i d t o her! But whatever i t was, she
has s t a r t e d t o paint."
I used t o t e l l m
y own students t h a t , you know, i f you
stop j u s t f i v e minutes too soon i t could be c r u c i a l t o your
l i f e . I t ' s hard, and you have t o take a l l kinds of c r i t i c i s m
and discouragement t o g e t on with it. I was t h r i l l e d later
on when I heard t h a t h e was doing t h i s t o h i s c l a s s e s t o
i n j e c t them with a l i t t l e courage.
DuCasse: 	 That is wonderful. W e l l , h e had a good example there.
Wolfskill: 	 Well, then, i t was Louisa actually who made m
e famous because
she was a good friend of Ninfa Valvo, who was the curator of
painting a t t h e de Young Museum, and she interested Ninfa
i n my work, and she arranged f o r an exhibit t h a t occupied the
center of the museum!
DuCasse: 	 I remember that.
Wolfskill: 	 And i t was next to-- Who i s t h a t wonderful woman? I can't
remember her name.
DuCasse: 	 Dorr Bothwell?
Wolfskill: 	 Yes, Dorr Bothwell hung i n the gallery beside me. Well, Ninfa
got on the t a i l of [Alfred] Frankenstein t o give m
e a review,
and when she phoned him, he said, "I've already written it,
because I ' m going t o Germany tomarrow." So I had t h i s
marvelous c r i t i q u e , i t was j u s t r e a l l y t h r i l l i n g .
DuCasse: 	 That's great, because he was a very touchy person, and he only
j u s t picked c e r t a i n people t o r e a l l y review.
Wolfskill: 	 He hardly mentioned Dorr Bothwell, and I already knew her and
knew what a genius she was, and admired her work.
DuCasse: 	 Well, he probably thought he had already given Dorr plenty i n
the past, and here was somebody new t h a t he r e a l l y got excited
about. That's a great t r i b u t e from Mr. Frankenstein.
Wolfskill: 	 I have t h e correspondence between Louisa and Ninfa, passing
the l e t t e r s and the c r i t i q u e back and f o r t h , and both seemed
t h r i l l e d because I was t h e i r baby! Well, they kept i t there
f o r three months. I had t o ask t o have my work back so I
could take i t t o Phoenix, s o t h a t a l s o was another feather i n
my cap. And actually the reason I was interested i n my
personal aggrandizement was I was sent t o the college t o put
the a r t department on the map there, s o naturally t o get
s t a r t e d I had t o get myself on the road.
DuCasse: 	 And t h i s was while i t was s t i l l by Lake Merritt i n Oakland,
i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? The beautiful, old buildings.
Wolfskill: 	 Yes. So m
y f i r s t exhibit w a s one I gave myself. And then--
Oh, who was m
y professor? Eugen Neuhaus had been m
y professor
of philosophy down a t A r t s and Crafts, and of course I invited
him t o come and see m
y work, and he gave m
e a rave criticism.
Then he got Paul M i l l s t o come up and see it. Paul was the
director of the gallery a t the Oakland Museum. So he gave m
e
an exhibit. Then l a t e r on, when they a l s o used Kaiser, he gave
Wolfskill: m
e another one there. Some woman phoned me while i t was a t
Kaiser, and she said, "Sister, m
y husband and I a r e moving
e a s t , and before we g o we want t o see your California missions.
Is there any opportunity t o do so?" And I said, "Yes, they ' r e
a t Kaiser, j u s t go down and see them." I thought that was a
t r i b u t e too t h a t m
y missions epitomized California f o r her.
DuCasse: Well, i t should have been. Because you use so much imagination
and such an unsual viewpoint, you brought out the special
q u a l i t i e s of each one, but not i n the usual way.
Wolfskill: Not the usual "saccharine way," a s Frankenstein said. They
weren't representational, they were impressionistic i n the
sense t h a t I painted them the way they impressed me.
I got l o t s of support from m
y A r t s and Crafts teachers;
even those who hadn't taught m
e but who had known m
e then on
the campus were very encouraging, and of course a beginner
needs plenty of that. And so t h a t ' s what I t r i e d t o transmit
t o m
y students was a sense of encouragement along with hard
work.
DuCasse: Oh, I agree. I t r y t o do that with mine. I think you can do
much more with a positive a t t i t u d e ; then the c r i t i c i s m you
give them they accept.
Wolfskill: Louis [ M i l j arak ] taught us that. He said, "The f i r s t thing
you do when you give a c r i t i c i s m is t o say a l l of the good
things, because then t h a t gives you the permission t o suggest
some corrections on the negative side." He was a marvelous
man and a great teacher.
DuCasse: Y e s , he was indeed. Well, t h a t i s very interesting. I never
had placed your s e r i e s of the missions i n its proper t i m e s l o t .
Wolfskill: Then I had thirteen one-woman shows, up and down the coast.
And a t t h a t time I was known a s S i s t e r Mary Luke, and I d i d n ' t
want anybody t o have prejudice against m
y work a s a religious
or a s a woman. Because i n those far-off days of t h e f i f t i e s
women were s t i l l nobodies.
DuCasse: Y e s , indeed, r i g h t .
Wolfskill: So I signed "S.M. Luke." And one of our s i s t e r s was viewing
them i n the Pasadena Public Library, and there was a couple
there, and the woman said t o the man, "Who is t h i s fellow
Luke?" [laughter] So I had accomplished what I wanted.
DuCasse: 	 Well, certainly your work would never have been recognizable
a s "woman's work." There was a period when one could distin-
guish very d e f i n i t e l y .
Wolfskill: 	 Dainty, boudoirish. The mother of one of our s i s t e r s bought
my f i r s t painting t h a t I sold, and the superior lowered the
p r i c e t h a t I put on it. I think she made m
e s e l l it f o r twenty
dollars. The woman took i t t o have i t framed, and.the framer
raved about it and he charged t h i r t y d o l l a r s f o r the frame f o r
my twenty-dollar painting.
So she said, "Well, i f you l i k e s i s t e r ' s work so well,
why don't you give her an exhibit here i n the shop?"
And he said, "Oh, no, I couldn't do that, she's never had
one. "
Well, t h a t j u s t got m
y craw, so when I had the bottega
f o r my a r t department, I s e t apart a section of it f o r a
gallery, and t h e f i r s t thing I did was t o phone t h e a r t
colleges i n the area and t o ask f o r an introduction t o young
women who had j u s t graduated and gotten t h e i r MFAs so t h a t I
might give them t h e i r f i r s t show, s o t h a t nobody could say
t h a t they had never had a show. And they were very grateful
and excited, and I made some wonderful friends.
DuCasse: 	 It's true. Someone has t o do t h a t , has t o give you your f i r s t
chance.
Wolfskill: 	 Another thing t h a t I did t h a t was fun--it wasn't exactly
l i t u r g i c a l i n one sense, but it had a bearing on it--I was
teaching Scripture a t t h a t time, a t one p a r t of m
y career a t
the college, and so the f i r s t thing I did was t o go down t o
the Jewish educational center and meet Seymour Fromer, who was
the d i r e c t o r of the museum [Magnes Museum]. And I made friends
with him. So l a t e r on I wanted t o have an exhibit of a Jewish
a r t i s t , and I had thought of a l o c a l a r t i s t , but Seymour and
h i s wife Rebecca had j u s t come back from I s r a e l where they had
met an a r t i s t i n Tel Aviv. (I'm ashamed t o say I can't even
remember h i s name a t the moment.) A t any r a t e , they had some
of h i s work, and with t h e help of Murray Lehr [?I, who sub-
sidized i t , we had an exhibit of Jewish a r t at the college,
and I made many wonderful friends i n the Jewish colony. I n
Wolf s k i l l :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
f a c t , I j u s t got a l e t t e r yesterday i n response t o the moped
a r t i c l e from somebody who had met me through Seymour.* So,
i t ' s a wonderful world. She l i v e s r i g h t here i n Hayward.
Oh, how great. And, you know, there's such a tie-in now since
Vatican I1 when we began t o recognize the Jewish heritage of
our Christian f a i t h . I mean why shouldn't there be a r e a l l y
very beautiful exchange between us?
Exactly. Well, t h i s was an ecumenical gesture because I was
teaching Scripture, but it was way before anybody was thinking
of ecumenism, a t l e a s t i n our area.
Well, fortunately some of us had t h a t s p i r i t p r i o r t o being
recognized by it!
When w e were speaking about Ninfa Valvo and so forth, you
must have had work i n the 1953 exhibit t h a t we had a t the de
Young Museum. Do you remember t h a t ?
I saw it but I didn't do anything on a professional l e v e l
because I was s t i l l getting m
y master's a t t h a t time. It took
m
e four summers, and I didn't go t o t h e college till '55, and
it was a f t e r t h a t t h a t I began t o be a public character.
But .did you see the exhibit?
That was a wonderful exhibit.
And then of course it was from that t h a t the Catholic A r t Forum
started, and I don't know whether you knew p a r t of t h a t story
and would be interested t h a t Father Meehan was on the committee.
Yes, I knew him too.
I ' m sure you did, and we'll have t o t a l k about him i n a few
minutes, but he objected t o a wonderful piece of work t h a t we
had invited. W
e invited some key a r t i s t s without jurying them;
and one of them was Elah Hale Hays, and I don't know i f you
remember her?
*Hayward Daily Record, Weds., Mar. 30, 1983, Headline: "Elderly
get a s p i r i t u a l l i f t from moped-riding nun." ..."S i s t e r Maria
Luisa spends more than 20 hours a week zipping along on her
moped, comforting 300 sick and elderly people confined t o homes
and convalescent hospitals." [appended]
Wolfskill: No, I don't.
DuCasse: Her work was a very beautiful thing, "My Peace I Give unto You,"
which was made of the most beautiful s t r u c t u r a l s t e e l . It was
an exquisite thing, a cruciform Christ. He would not allow
t h a t t o be shown i n the exhibit because he thought it was
i n f e r i o r material. It j u s t shows how antiquated some of us
were a t t h a t time. So we had t o r e j e c t t h a t a f t e r we had
invited it, so t h i s was what made us r e a l i z e t h a t education
was needed. And one of the reasons the A r t Forum was founded
was t o begin t o educate the clergy, the religious, and the
l a i t y t h a t such things were s u p e r f i c i a l and not r i g h t a t a l l .
That's i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t t h i s came up because I wanted t o
ask i f you had known Father Meehan and i f you remember anything
much about him and h i s a c t i v i t i e s .
Wolfskill: I j u s t remember t h a t he was q u i t e a dandy.
DuCasse: Very much so!
Wolfskill: And h e had a chalice t h a t was so ornate and so loaded with
jewels t h a t he couldn't get any insurance on it.
DuCasse: Oh no! Well, you know he did a monstrance f o r Vallombrosa and
I s m sure i t ' s the one they've been using because I s m sure i t ' s
the only one they have. It came out the other day f o r one of
our a c t i v i t i e s , and i t was so simple I couldn't believe i t was
designed by him; i t was r e a l l y beautiful. Because I know he
had a tendency f o r ornateness.
Wolfskill: Well, I think because he had Thomas Meehan, h i s movie-actor
brother, who subsidized him i n h i s a r t i s t i c ventures--.
Benny Bufano, and Jean Varda
Wolfskill: It j u s t occurred t o m
e while we were talking t h a t the f i r s t
year I was a t the college, which was the old campus, I had the
nerve t o i n v i t e Benny Bufano f o r lunch and a lecture. He was
a great rabble-rouser, and I always admired h i s work, I j u s t
loved i t , p a r t i c u l a r l y h i s animals and St. Francis.
DuCasse: And he had
and he was
the courage of h i s convictions,
a good person.
he had character
Wolfskill: Yes, yes. I think one of h i s most impressive works is the
beautiful crucifixion i n which C h r i s t ' s t r i g g e r finger i s
missing, a s was h i s .
DuCasse: Yes, a s was h i s .
Wolfskill: Then, of course, I already have mentioned Varda; he used t o c a l l
me h i s f a v o r i t e nun. And one t i m e one of our sisters' brother
was out on the Bay on a yacht and saw t h i s habit standing on
the Vallejo, h i s boat which he shared with Alan Watts, and he
said, "I've got t o see who t h a t is, i t can only be S i s t e r Luke."
And sure enough, they drew alongside and there I was with Varda.
I would take m
y classes over there periodically, but I a l s o
had him come and v i s i t with and t a l k t o m
y department because
although he had t h i s bohemian e x t e r i o r he had a marvelously
deep s p i r i t u a l i n t e r i o r , which goes back t o t h a t c a l l t o the
priesthood.
DuCasse: Of course. And h i s Greek soul.
Wolfskill: And h i s Greek soul. H i s mother was a visionary. She got her
instructions from Our Lady, he s a i d ; he d i d n ' t t e l l t h a t t o
many people. I have a correspondence of I think t h i r t y letters
i n m
y p o r t f o l i o here, and recently Virginia, h i s f i r s t wife,
got i n touch with me and she borrowed them because she wants
t o do a l i f e of him.
DuCasse: Oh, splendid. There should be one,
man and a very f i n e a r t i s t .
because he was a fascinating
Wolfskill: Y e s , a wonderful person. I know God only looks below the s h i r t ,
which was always i n t h i s case very flamboyant and colorful!
[laughing]
DuCasse: Definitely. I hope the Lord appreciates that. [laughter]
Wolfskill: Oh, I ' m sure He did. And you know on t h i s boat t h a t I have a
p r i n t of. IIe p a r t i c u l a r l y loved t o s a i l p a s t a place where some
sisters had a summer place on t h e Bay, and they'd a l l s i t on
t h e shore and wave t o him i f he went by, and t h a t was q u i t e a
feather i n h i s cap !
DuCasse: How delightful! Oh, he was an amazing man. I knew him b r i e f l y
i n Camel the l a s t few months of m
y f a t h e r ' s l i f e . And we got
them both together, and they each t r i e d t o outdo t h e other i n
flamboyance. W
e had q u i t e a session with those two! [laughing]
Fabric Works: Subjects and Inspirations
DuCasse: 	 We'd l i k e t o discuss then some of your embroideries. Many of
those you did f o r chapels and f o r the church.
Wolfskill: 	 Well, they arrived i n one case i n a chapel. However, I was
j u s t thinking about what inspired me. I think there were two
things. I n the summer of '57 or '58, I forget which, I went
t o the University of B r i t i s h Columbia f o r a summer session
because I was very weak i n figure, and I drew the figure i n the
morning and sculptured it i n the afternoon. I had the same
professor, so I made q u i t e a b i t of progress, and got some con-
fidence. Among the clay things t h a t I did i n r e l i e f toward the
end of t h e course, I got i n t o some madonnas t h a t were Byzantine
i n inspiration. I always loved t h a t form of a r t anyway because
I think t h a t i t ' s very incarnational, and t h a t of course
interested me. Then probably Varda had a l o t of influence a s
f a r a s using f a b r i c was concerned; although I used it very
d i f f e r e n t l y there's s t i l l t h a t derivation and inspiration.
So I think m
y f i r s t one was of Our Lady i n very cool
colors on natural linen. I r a f f l e d t h a t and one of m
y students
won i t ; I called off t h e r a f f l e when I got t o a hundred dollars.
Then I did a red one using telephone wire f o r the delineation
of the face and the hands. A l l the r e s t was embroidery. It
was on red burlap, and I called i t , "Love Is Stronger than
Hate," and I worked i t i n pink and red because i n Heywood
Broun's autobiography I remember him saying t h a t "the pope's
encyclicals make the Communist Manifesto look pink." So I was
juxtaposing i n m
y mind pink' and red, and it had the t r e e of
l i f e and Satan underfoot. A woman bought it i n Sacramento
because she saw it i n a show I had up there--a religious show,
I can't remember the name of it--but the Lutherans sponsored
i t , and it hangs i n her bedroom. She sent me some very lovely
pictures of it.
Then there was one of St. Michael t h a t my f a v o r i t e
student, Carol Larkin, has hanging i n her vestibule. And i t ' s
about one-by-two f e e t , done on natural linen. The inspiration
f o r t h a t was a l i t t l e , tiny p i c t u r e I saw i n L i f e magazine of
a wood carving on a church door i n Coptic Africa. So I blew
t h a t up. I understood when I was teaching the history of art
that t h e miniatures i n the Bible and the Books of Hours were
the inspiration of the frescoes and murals, so I didn't think
there was anything wrong with l i f t i n g t h i s ! But changing i n t o
a new medium makes a great deal of difference.
Wolfskill: And, l e t ' s see, then there was a S t e l l a Matutina which was, I
think, another one that was on red. It was a beautiful one
with a l o t of gold thread i n it. And my student Carol Larkin
used m
y cartoon f o r i t and did one f o r m
y s i s t e r i n colors
that went with her home. It's e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t actually.
I think Carol's more creative than I am! I taught her
embroidery, but she did things t h a t were very, very f r e e which
I admired immensely.
There was one I called "The Christian Vocation." It was
done a t the time I was teaching Scripture, both Old and New
Testament, f o r two semesters. And so I wanted t o do something
t o show how inextricably united the two Testaments are, and I
chose the embrace of Elizabeth and Mary i n the mystery of the
Visitation. Elizabeth was dressed i n the colors of evening and
night, and Mary i n the colors of dawn and spring. And t h e i r
figures a r e interlocked a s one figure. The Sun of J u s t i c e i n
Mary's womb i s the golden effulgence t h a t dissipates the
darkness t h a t surrounds the figures. And t h a t ' s the one I
loved. In f a c t , one of my students bought it, but she never
came t o get it, a s she moved t o Southern California, so it was
hanging i n the college chapel from the choir l o f t , and from
there it was stolen. I've always prayed that i t would be an
instrument of conversion f o r the t h i e f ! O r f o r the buyer!
Then I have done some others t h a t were not s t r i c t l y
religious. When I came back from Europe I did a blue seascape
from found f a b r i c and I called t h a t "The Blue Coast," but i t
was dedicated t o Mary, S t a r Of The Sea. And t h i s one which
you see [gesturing] is "Costa d e l Sol," which is dedicated t o
Our Lord, the "Sun of Justice. l'
DuCasse: O h , t h a t i s a b e a u t y .
Wolfskill: So everything I e v e r d i d had religious connotations,
though i t may not have had t h e t i t l e .
even
DuCasse: So-called religious subjects, a s such.
Wolfskill: Yes.
do.
Because i f you love the Lord it s p i l l s out i n what you
DuCasse: 	 It c e r t a i n l y does. Oh, indeed. Well, I ' m always so impressed
with your beautiful embroideries. Because I think i t is a
technique which is suitable; i t ' s a wonderful way of expressing
your ideas.
Wolfskill: 	 Well, when we were speaking a t our interval there, we remembered
that we were both on the Catholic A r t Commission [Oakland
Diocese]. After Vatican I1 the bishop [Bishop Floyd Begin] came
Wolfskill: home with h i s pockets f u l l of ideas t h a t he should have a
committee f o r t h i s , t h a t , and the other. So the priest--
whose name I have forgotten, who was i n charge of the l i t u r -
g i c a l a r t of the area--called m
e and asked me who I would
recommend f o r the committee. I gave him the names of a l l of
my a r t i s t friends, of course, who were i n t e l l i g e n t and
wonderful people, yourself among them, and the f i r s t thing
I knew I was asked t o be on i t myself. I didn't think t h a t
was going t o happen.
So we functioned ineffectually, a s you remember, since
we were told by t h e Bishop t h a t we could be heard but t h a t
h i s opinion would prevail. [laughing]
DuCasse: Yes, we t r i e d hard enough while we were doing i t , but i t died
a n a t u r a l death.
Wolfskill: Rarnbusch [church designers, decorators, and craftsmen, New
York City] did it [renovation of Oakland Cathedral, St. Francis
de Sales], and I r e a l l y liked it.
DuCasse: Oh yes, I think he did a very good job.
Wolfskill: He's doing St. Leander's, and they have the plans there, r e a l l y
marvelous. He, too, has learned a great deal through the
years.
DuCasse : I ' m sure he has, because he had imagination and h i s heart was
i n the r i g h t place, and I think he has t r i e d t o l i v e up t o the
new concepts i n l i t u r g i c a l a r t s . It's good t o know t h a t t h a t ' s
happening because we put the Catholic A r t Forum t o sleep i n
the s i x t i e s , a f t e r we f e l t t h a t it had f u l f i l l e d its mission,
which was r e a l l y education i n a sense. And because the
emphasis of the Vatican I1 took us a l i t t l e b i t away from a r t
a s being a necessary p a r t of l i t u r g i c a l functions. You
remember how--
Wolfskill: Oh, I do! Anybody could do it.
awful banners--
And we had the most gosh-
DuCasse: That's i t , it became a free-for-all.
Wolfskill: --an opportunity f o r the -
hoi p o l l o i , whether they had any
education o r not, and I think t h a t education i n a r t i s an
extremely powerful f a c t o r f o r the development of the human
being.
Rite of I n i t i a t i o n f o r Christian Adults
Wolfskill: That takes m
e a step further. I didn't think t o t a l k about
t h i s , but i n February I went t o m
y f i r s t week-long session with
the RICA, which i s the Rite of I n i t i a t i o n f o r Christian Adults.
This is going back t o our roots i n the catechumenate. It's
transforming parishes t h a t a r e using it. I t ' s absolutely
fabulous the way the whole Easter l i t u r g y came a l i v e f o r people
in a way it had never done before.
DuCasse: W
e have t h a t a t our parish too.
Wolf' s k i l l : A t t h e week-long session there were experts there and there was
an environmentalist, i n f a c t a group t h a t functioned with her.
Their environments f o r the r i t e s were absolutely gorgeous, and
I think t h i s is going t o be a transforming factor. Our parish
church looks l i k e Breuner's, I say, because t h e r e ' s no relation-
ship between one thing and t h e other and there's no focal point.
DuCasse: Like the cathedral i n San Francisco,
everything i s hodgepodge.
I might add, St. Mary's,
Wolfskill: True, but I think the baldachino c a l l s your attention t o t h e
a l t a r . That's beautiful.
DuCasse: That's t h e one redeeming feature.
Wolfskill: But a p r i e s t I was talking t o said, 'Well, why don't you be
the environmentalist?" And I said, "Well, j u s t get me i n t h a t
job and 1'11 take over."
Oh, you can't worship i n a place where there a r e nothing
but dead flowers and banners t h a t a r e a l l over the place and
ten times too much furniture. It's sickening, and there I saw
how beautifully it was done--they went out i n t o the woods and
got whole branches of t r e e s a s well a s f e r n s and rocks. For
the l i v i n g water somebody contrived a way t o make the water
flow i n t o the l i t t l e garden t h a t they had there.
A number of people were i n i t on a committee basis, and
so a committee--if i t ' s small enough and i n t e l l i g e n t enough--
is a wonderful way t o work because instead of having 100
percent of one person's brain you have 50, 60, 90, 80, 100
percent from a number of people and you get some r e a l l y r i c h
results. Besides, i t a c t i v a t e s people i n t h e Church and makes
everybody develop his/her g i f t s .
DuCasse : 	 True. Because even though it was very e s s e n t i a l t h a t we come 

back t o the source, which is the a l t a r and the mass and so 

f o r t h , there s t i l l has t o be t h a t environment. That i s a 

wonderful way t o put it. I ' d never thought that. H
o
w very 

inspiring. 

Wolfskill: 	 So t h a t may be the next step forward t o get the a r t i s t s back
,	 i n t o the act. Because I remember reading i n Liturgical A r t s
t h a t a r t i s t s considered it t h e epitome--or the apogee i s perhaps
a b e t t e r word--of t h e i r careers t o do something f o r the church,
even though they were not e c c l e s i a l [ s i c ] people. Because j u s t
t o work f o r God--to work f o r t h e church was t o work f o r God--
and t o make an offering of themselves through t h e i r a r t t o God,
was the ultimate f o r them. Remember the wonderful vestments
t h a t used t o be done?
Ethel Souza. and the Serra S h o ~
DuCasse: 	 Oh, extraordinary.
That brings up one of the a r t i s t s t h a t you may have known,
Barbara Zrnich?
Wolfskill: 	 I remember her name.
DuCasse: 	 She was a l s o a good friend of Ethel Souza's. That's what we
wanted t o bring out, Ethel and her Junipero Serra Shop. She
worked with Ethel a great deal and she did a number of very
beautiful vestments, and she a l s o has done f a n t a s t i c embroidery
banners. W
e have one a t Vallombrosa t h a t i s exquisite. It's
an angel, a blue angel, i n t h e dining room. And she has t h a t
same a b i l i t y you have, r e a l l y , though she's not doing i t i n
such abstract terms, but .her use of fabrics and l i n e is very
.wonderful.
And another person-- I don't know that E m i did much of
t h a t type of thing, but don't you know E m i Luptak?
Wolfskill: 	 Oh, yes, of course. She was my colleague.
DuCasse: 	 Emi has done some very wonderful things, and I know she's
probably trying t o do i n her parish up i n F a i r f i e l d what you
a r e doing here.
Wolfskill: 	 Yes, she was a very Catholic a c t i v i s t !
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
Oh, very much so. And she was a minister when they f i r s t allowed
women t o be ministers. I haven't seen her f o r a long t i m e .
W e l l , then we could t a l k about Valyermo and a l l of the
Benedictines down there and of the oblates .who w e r e a l s o i n
many cases members of the Catholic A r t Forum.
Oh, definitely.
They cross-pollinated and f e r t i l i z e d Catholic A r t a t both ends
of the l i n e .
Oh, yes, and Louisa brought t h a t i n t o her interview, because
she's so close t o them. Well, a l l of these elements have been
important. Now, let's get back t o the Junipero Serra Shop, and
what you remember of t h e i r a c t i v i t i e s and how you f e l t about
what they were doing.
Well, I think I hardly ever go t o a Catholic bookshop anymore
t h a t I don't think of t h a t place because there's nothing l i k e
it. It was s o r t of a physical hub f o r the Catholic A r t Forum
because whereas Father [Wm.] Monihan, S.J., who was our guiding
l i g h t , often gave t h e space a t USF, he couldn't do it perpetu-
a l l y . Whereas, i f you went t o the Serra Shop, you would meet'
other a r t i s t s and you would see books, hear records, buy cards.
A l l i n s p i r a t i o n a l .
Y e s , and see other people's a r t .
And be generally stimulated. There was nothing inferior. So
often'bookshops, especially the Catholic breed, have a great
deal of junk mixed i n with the r e a l , so t h a t the uneducated
when they come i n they won't know the difference! But here
they would have t o know the difference, because i f they did
have anything it was hidden under the counter. And Ethel was
such a wonderful person.
Oh, yes. She had t h a t f i r e , the Holy S p i r i t motivated i n her
extraordinary way. I was able t o get a tape of her, and she
remembered q u i t e a b i t . There was more t h a t I would have
liked t o have drawn from her, but she seems t o have given a s
much a s she wanted to.
I had an exhibit there too, so I ' m happy about that.
I think I remember seeing it. Weren't they the watercolors?
They were the missions, one of the t h i r t e e n shows.
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Lulsa zips along Hayward streets during her daily visits to the sick and elderly.
I
get a spiritual lift
,
-
'
i from moped-riding nun
1 By Karen Holzmeister
SWI wri*
I
HAYWARD -M
o
s
t people pray to get to heaven,
buf Sister Maria Luisa is paving her way on a shiny
red moped.
Sister Maria Luisa spends more than 20 hours a
week zipping along on her moped, comforting 300
sick and elderly people confined to homes and
convalescent hospitals.
"Our Lord was not reclusive and my life is beyond
the classroom, too," said the retired teacher, who
putts around on her Puch Maxi at 30 miles an hour.
Policemen have pulled her over for running red
lights. Passersby have shouted "Hi Ho, Silver" and
"The Flying Nun." She's gouged her boots and
scarred her shins in tumbles to the pavement.
But the plucky nun, at 68, is not fazed. 

"I'm far from finished unless someone mows me 

down," she explained.
while some people her age may look forward to a
rockingchair. Siter Maria Luisa is thinking ahead to
her next tuneup.
Preparing to go for a ride, she resembles a sporty
Yuletide elf, with her green quilted jacket and knee-
high, lace-up boots. Before slipping on thick gloves.
she tucks her gray curls inside a candy-rcd helmet.
The helmet came, Sister Maria Luisa said, after a
friend warned: "You've only got one set of brains, so
get with it."
Amischievoussmile curved her lips when she said
she is a pacesetter in the Holy Names teaching order.
Sister Maria Luisa was oneof the the first nuns in the
order to exchange the thick folds of a !ong religious
dress and veil for street clothes in 1967. She thinks
she is the first member of her order to use a moped.
Continued back of section, col. 5
This nun has a 

different habit 

Continued frompage 1 	 to the elderly is her latest call-
The moped comes in handy ing. She has taught at three
for her ministry to the sick and grade levels and was a mis-
elderly of St. Bede's Catholic sionary before coming to St.
Church on Patrick Avenue. Bede's.
When she arrived at the par- 	
"I'm a retread, not retired,"
ish three years ago, Sister 	 shesaid.
Maria Luisa said its sheer size
ruled out making her rounds on At the peak of her teaching
foot. career, she headed the art de-
The parish, one of the largest partment of Holy Names Col-
in the Catholic Diocese of Oak- legein Oakland.Shestarted her
land, is h n d e d by Jackson retirement in 1977with a three-
Street O
n the north, Industrial year stint of missionary work in
Boulevard on the west, In- Arequipa, Peru.
dustrial Parkway on the south
and Huntwood Avenue on the Sister Maria Luisa said she is
east. doing her present work because
A car was also out, Sister she has always loved the elder-
Maria Luisa said, "since I never ly.
ran anything more mechanical Born Norma Luisa wolfskill
than a sewing machine." in Los Angeles, she grew up in a
She started Out on a large Holy Names convent school af-
tricycle built by a parishioner. ter her mother died.
Teased about riding it, she
progressed to a two-wheeler. "I "I loved everything about the
rode at quite a good clip, just sisters, most of all their won-
tearing along," she said. derful love of life and ability to
Then knee problems flared laugh. MYfather placed me in
up, so last October she finally the convent .because he knew
took Monsignor George Fran- they would take care Of me for
cis, St. Bede's pastor, up on a love, not money," she said.
promise to provide a motor ve- After graduating from high
hicle, gas and insurance. school in 1933, Sister Maria
The loo-pound moped,just 30 Luis applied to the teaching
pounds lighter than Sister order, but the nuns suggested
Maria Luisa, was the answer. she take a Year to experience
Despite failing the cycle theoutsideworld.
. licensing exam the first time, Thus, she joined the order in
Sister Maria Luisa wasn't dis- 1934. She moved to the Bay
couraged. 	 Area more than 30 years ago to
teach.
"I didn't feel S
o badly," she she accepts the discipline of
confessed. "I was talking to a religinc~
!ife, z c ~ has not
said i:
guy with a pigtail, jacket and stifled her individual freedom 

boots - a biker - at the or forced her to submerge her 

license bureau. He said he personality.

failed. too." For years, her religiousname 

Her longest trip has been was Sister Mary Luke in honor
down Mission Boulevard to of St. Luke. Shelater changed it
Warm Springsin Fremont for a to Maria Luisa.
tuneup. Laughing, Sister Maria Luisa
Sister Maria Luisa has some said she never regretted giving
unorthodox maintenance meth- up her baptismal name of Nor-
ods. On cold mornings, when the ma. Norma, the title character
engine won't start, she aims the of an Italian opera, was a pagan
warm air nozzle of her hair priestess not faithful to her
dryer at the motor. vows, she said.
"Then Igivethe moped a kick A one-time landscape artist.
and off she goes." Sister Maria Luisa said she has
Her tool box -a cigar box - virtually given up art, with the
also containsa book of religious exception of calligraphy and
readings. some work with fabric.
When the weather was at its Meanwhile, she is having a
worst this winter, she left the good time performing daily
moped in the convent garage acts of kindness and, as she
and several parishioners chauf- jumps on her moped, she is
feured her to appointments. having a little fun along the
Sister Maria Luisa's ministry way.
DuCasse: Yes, yes, because I was
definitely.
sure I had seen it there, very
Wolfskill: When I moved from t h e college, I threw out a great deal, but
there a r e c e r t a i n things I kept. Like m
y correspondence with
Louisa, and m
y correspondence with Varda. I kept those. But
a l s o with [Konrad] Adenauer's son Paul, a p r i e s t . Because he
came t o the college, and the president nudged me t o give a
painting t o him, so it hangs i n h i s f a t h e r ' s place, Rondorf on
the Rhine!
A Sense of Achievement
DuCasse: I've been shown a wonderful album of information and a r t i c l e s ,
pictures and so f o r t h a l l t o do with the s e r i e s on the missions,
the watercolors on t h e missions, and where they were exhibited,
a l l the correspondence and a l l kinds of fascinating d e t a i l s .
[looking through album]
Wolfskill: I n the days when I was Luke, I chose t h e name Luke because of
St. Luke, t h e patron of a r t , and I subsequently learned that
he's the patron of butchers and brewers.
DuCasse: Oh really?
a doctor.
Not of doctors? I thought he was supposed t o be
Wolfskill: Y e s , of doctors and butchers, and they never mention t h a t i n
front of the surgeons. And he was patron of brewers, because
he had h i s f e a s t a t the midst of Octoberfest.
DuCasse: [ s t i l l looking through album]
calligraphy, oh, I envy you.
Oh, your beautiful, beautiful
Wolfskill: That's -
the exhibit, I mean -
t h e critique. [Frankenstein's review]
DuCasse: Oh, i s n ' t t h a t wonderful [reading],
no orange peels!" [laughing]
"The missions had f i r e but
Wolfskill: And these letters a r e so beautiful and s o appreciative t h a t
they r e a l l y carry m
e on.
This is the correspondence between Ninfa and Louisa--
That's a darling l e t t e r from one of my Dominican a r t i s t
friends over a t St. Albert's. I associated with them too. I
think Louisa got me i n t o everything I ever got into! [laughing]
She'd prod and scold and encourage a l t e r n a t e l y a s the need
arose!
Wolfskill: [ r e f e r r i n g t o album] That's the one that was stolen, the 

Visitation. 

This s e t of missions I did another year, and they don't
have q u i t e the zip and the inspiration of the others, but
they 'r e joyful .
DuCasse: 	 Well, t h a t is splendid, i t ' s a good record of a l l your 

achievements i n t h a t particular l i n e . 

Well, l e t ' s see what e l s e we can get from you. Any
other ideas t h a t you j u s t want t o t a l k about?
Wolfskill: 	 Oh, nothing comes--. Talk is what generates these things.
DuCasse: 	 I know, one has t o do that. And I have t o be careful that I
don't allow too much of myself on the tape. I have a tendency
t o , you know.
Wolfskill: 	 You know, now t h a t I am not producing anymore, except a b i t of
calligraphy now and again, joining m
y s i s t e r s who have t h i s
grant I was t e l l i n g you about, it s t a r t e d a t the college here
i n Oakland, and then it went t o Washington t o Fort Wright, and
now i t ' s going t o be a t Marylhurst t h i s year. And I f e l t l i k e
I was a r e t i r e e a s f a r a s a r t was concerned, not a s f a r as
other aspects of m
y l i f e a r e concerned, but I found--and it
was acknowledged by those present--that I had an enormous
contribution t o make. A year ago January I took the Meyers-
Briggs Test f o r the f i r s t time, and I learned something about
myself t h a t I always thought was a d e f i c i t , but i t ' s j u s t a
c e r t a i n kind of character; t h a t I need people t o generate
thought i n me.
For example, they send m
e something with blanks t o f i l l
in. Well, they remain blanks because I don't f i l l anything
in. The minute I get with a group of people I get charged!
And I have a thousand ideas. I n f a c t , I f e e l l i k e I have t o
keep m
y clamps on so I won't t a l k too much. J u s t l i k e you,
I think of things I haven't thought of f o r years because it
j u s t turns m
e on t o be with people.
DuCasse: 	 Well, I f e e l the same way. I think maybe the a r t i s t needs
t h i s because even though he has t o work r e a l l y by himself
and q u i e t l y , he needs t h i s other generative force.
Wolfskill: 	 Feedback.
DuCasse: 	 Feedback, true. And people. People a r e very important t o you
because you deal with tangibles, with the world.
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse :
Wolfskill:
DuCasse:
Wolfskill:
That's why I think the friendships we have made i n the Catholic
A r t Forum a r e invaluable because they were deeply s p i r i t u a l
friendships on a l e v e l of development of our own personalities
t h a t j u s t drew each of us out i n a d i f f e r e n t way. So although
i f you ask me the names of some of these people, i f I remember
t h e i r work, I might not be able t o give you anything except
the aroma of t h e stew. Everybody contributed something that
was r i c h and delicious.
Which was received by everyone i n turn.
That's r i g h t . And only God knows how much of i t touched us
and made us what we a r e and has transformed our own a r t .
That's true. You mentioned r i g h t near the beginning about E f f i e
Fortune. Did you know E f f i e a t a l l ?
NO, I didn't know her, and the f i r s t thing I saw t h a t she did
was the chapel of Providence Hospital. But I know Monsignor
Brennan very well and of course h i s whole t h r u s t has been t o
document and publish her l i f e . And I don't know whether he's
done i t yet.
The next one she did I think was down a t P a c i f i c Grove,
a very beautiful l i t t l e church.
That she did f i r s t actually. She founded her Monterey Guild
i n P a c i f i c Grove.
I n f a c t Ethel s t a r t e d i n Monterey. W e l l , she moved t o
Monterey .
They moved t o Monterey. Actually Ethel was out of i t by t h a t
time, and the Goldens moved it t o Monterey, but i t was past
its time. It was j u s t l i k e the Forum; a t a c e r t a i n period of
time it was the end. And the same with the Junipero Serra
Shop.
Yes, and I don't think we should hang onto things and t r y t o
resuscitate them when they're dead. I always think of t h e
Book of Exodus where the Lord commands them t o take j u s t enough
manna f o r t h e i r needs. And those who took more and hoarded i t
because they didn't t r u s t the providence of God turned t o
worms. And I think t h a t ' s t r u e of inspiration, which is one
of t h e great g i f t s of the Holy S p i r i t , t h a t they're always
fresh and i f you don't share them and pass them along then
they not only won't nourish you, but they stagnate and do
nothing f o r anybody else.
DuCasse: I ' m so encouraged by what you've
i n the parishes.
told m
e of t h i s new movement
Wolfskill: It's throughout t h e Church, it comes from Rome, and i t ' s a
document t h a t ' s been worked on very carefully. And i t ' s so
t h r i l l i n g . A great deal i s being written on i t .
DuCasse: Is there some c e n t r a l writing about t h i s ?
Wolfskill: Oh, yes. The r i t e i t s e l f i s central and then everybody works
i t out t o f i t the local situation.
DuCasse: I'll have t o check a t my parish f o r t h a t because I know t h a t
a t one point they mentioned t h i s t o us and I may have received
something i n the mail.
Wolfskill: You would love t o go t o one of the workshops.' The one I went
to was a t Presentation College, and you can join the environ-
mentalist group because you sign up t o serve a s you wish.
You may a l s o sign up t o a c t a s a sponsor o r a s a catechumen
o r a s a neophyte o r an inquirer and go through t h e experience
because, you know, j u s t hearing about things you could read a
book a t home, but i t ' s doing i t t h a t makes the difference.
You know, you're s i t t i n g i n front of something t h a t I did
f o r fun, but I r e a l l y l i k e it. It was one of the doors a t
Mission San Miguel and i t had the r e j a , and behind t h a t was a
piece of p l a t e glass and beyond t h a t a patio. Well, t h i s
intercepting piece of p l a t e glass gave me a r e f l e c t i o n of the
fountain i n the garden out i n front of the mission and then
i t compenetrated [ s i c ] with the dark passageway t h a t led t o
the p a t i o beyond. To m
e i t meant what I put on there by
calligraphy from Solomon's Song.
DuCasse: [reading] "She is a garden enclosed,
my s i s t e r , m
y promised bride;
and "He looks i n a t the window,
He peers through the l a t t i c e .
Oh, t h a t is j u s t beautiful.
Song of Songs 4:12"
Song of Songs 9:2"
Wolfskill: And i n t h i s intervening painting there's a woman's figure,
which I never intended, but I see her a s plain a s day.
Can you see the eye, t h e mouth, the nose?
DuCasse : Yes.
Wolfskill: This is unintentional.
DuCasse: Yes, and she's r e a l l y a p a r t of t h a t composition.
Wolfskill: Colorwise, she flows i n t o it.
DuCasse: F l o w s i n t o i t . It'samazinghowthosethingshappen.
Wolfskill: Yes, it is.
DuCasse: I was looking a t i t b r i e f l y when I was across the room, but then
we changed our seating so I didn't get t o look a t it. That's
a beautiful concept. This is what is s o marvelous about the
imagination being able t o conjure these things up.
Wolfskill: Well, I think we can wind t h i s up by praising God who gave us
H i s g i f t s s o richly.
DuCasse: And f o r t h e r i c h treasure of our friendship; even though we don't
see each other too often, t h e r e ' s always something t h a t is there.
Wolfskill: It's l i k e Fray Luis when he was jugged by t h e Inquisition.
Remember, he was lecturing and f i v e years l a t e r he said, "As I
was saying--''! And he carried on from where he l e f t off. And
t h a t ' s what f r i e n d s can do, especially friends t h a t have Christ
a s t h e i r center.
DuCasse: Definitely. Well, i t ' s been a pleasure t o do t h i s with you.
Wolfskill: And we say, Amen, Hallelujah!
DuCasse: Amen, Hallelujah!
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancrof t Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Mary Erckenbrack
AN ARTIST'S RELIGIOUS WORKS ON TILE AND IN CLAY
An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1984 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of t h e University of California
SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
June 18, 1992
, ,
MaryErckenbrack
A memorialcelebration will be
held for Mary Erckenbrack, a
prominent craft artist with a na-
tional reputation who was a long-
time figure in the North Beach
community. She died of a stroke
Thursdayat 81.
Ms. Erckenbrack was distin-
guished in the areas of ceramic
and tile art and sculpture.
She was born in Seattle but
grewup in BrazilandinEurope,as
her father,aU.S. shippingcommis-
sioner, moved from port to port.
Shecameto SanFranciscoin 1935,
after a brief marriage, and chose
to live in North Beach. Her works
were commissioned by the Shrin-
ers' Hospitalfor CrippledChildren
in the Sunset District, the Hamil-
ton Recreation Center in the Fill-
more, the Ping Yuen housing pro-
ject in Chinatown and other insti-
tutions.
She also sold her work at de-
partment stores in San Francisco
and nationally,and operated craft
shops around the city, including
Mary E's Mud Shopon Clay Street.
She is survived by her brother,
Eugene, of Seattle and by several
nephews and nieces.
A memorial will be held next
Thursday from 4 to 6 p.m. at Cae-
sar's Restaurantat Powell andBay
streets in San Francisco.
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Mary Erckenbrack
INTERVIEW HISTORY
AN ARTIST'S RELIGIOUS WORKS O
N TILE AND IN CLAY
INTERVIEW HISTORY
It was a special pleasure t o renew acquaintance with Mary Erckenbrack
a f t e r a lapse of several years. W
e met i n her apartment i n San Francisco,
not f a r from Fisherman's Wharf. From her window ships could be seen plying
t h e i r way i n and out of the Bay, against a backdrop of East Bay h i l l s .
Within, the walls were covered with drawings, paintings, p r i n t s , and ceramic
r e l i e f s . Standinghereand there were some of her sculptures from past
periods. Truly an a r t i s t ' s studio-home.
W
e partook of a delicious lunch, reminiscent of many we had shared i n
the past i n Ruth Cravath's stoneyard on Potrero H i l l during the weekly
meetings of the sculpture c l a s s we both attended. The s e t t i n g was a .
nostalgic remembrance of the recent past a s introduction t o our interview
about Mary's l i f e a s an a r t i s t and s p e c i f i c a l l y her participation i n the
l i t u r g i c a l a r t renaissance i n the San Francisco Bay Area.
I remembered vividly the tour we had made years ago, probably i n the
l a t e s i x t i e s , t o Hanna Center, with Ruth and Mary and a group from the
sculpture class, t o view the work each had done f o r t h a t splendid project
i n Sonoma County. Mary's s t a t i o n s of the cross and a holy water font were,
i n s c a l e and simplicity and directness of design, perfect f o r the modest
proportions of the s i s t e r s ' chapel. Her s t y l e i n ceramic material was
harmonious i n s p i r i t with t h a t of Ruth Cravath's rugged stone f a ~ a d e
sculpture and the l a r g e marble r e l i e f s t a t i o n s i n the main chapel. It was
a happy team work between two f i n e sculptors and friends.
Mary Erckenbrack has always been imbued with a r e l i g i o u s s p i r i t ,
whether i t was conscious o r unconscious. It was q u i t e natural f o r her t o
turn t o religious subjects a t various times i n her career. A s we hear i n
her interview, the innate t a s t e of t h e a r t i s t did not always mesh with
t h a t of the patron, when it was a member of the clergy o r r e l i g i o u s order,
reminding us of one of the primary reasons f o r the existence of the Catholic
A r t Forum.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
.
.
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please print or write clearly)
Your f u l l name
u Place of b i r t h
Date of b i r t h //+ ,30 / y
&
,
/
.-
Father's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Mother's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Y
Where did you grow up ?
_C
Present community ziW=d-
, .
Education
Special interests o r a c t i v i t i e s -
MARY E. ERCKENBRACK iii
BIOGRAPHY-RESUME
Native of S e a t t l e , Washington, E a r l y school y e a r s s p e n t i n 

B r a z i l , France and England. 

-
1935: 	 B.A. i n Fine A r t s : P a i n t i n g , A r c h i t e c t u r a l ornament,
' 	 AnaLomical drawing, University of Washington, S e a t t l e ,
Washington.
1935: 	 1st p r i z e i n o i l s . . . National I n t e r c o l l e g i a t e 

Competition, New York C i t y , N.Y. 

Murals and c o l o r p l a n s f o r a r c h i t e c t s . . . S e a t t l e ,
Washington.
-
1937: 1st p r i z e i n s c u l p t u r e ...S e a t t l e A r t Museum,
S e a t t l e , Washington.
1938-	 Return t o B r a z i l and t o Argentina ...study of A r c h i t e c t u r a l
-
1939: 	 d e t a i l s and t h e r e l a t e d arts.
-
1940: E s t a b l i s h e d r e s i d e n c e and operating s t u d i o i n
San Francisco, C a l i f o r n i a .
National and i n t e r n a t i o n a l market f o r ceramics and
sculpture: V.C. Morris, Gumps i n San Francisco, Gumps,
Honolulu, Marshall F i e l d s of Chicago, Lord and Taylor,
Macys of New York, Neiman-Marcus, Dallas, Texas, etc.
1948- E s t a b l i s h e d Ceramic Department and taught one year...
1949: Napa J u r n i o r College, Napa, C a l i f o r n i a ; a d u l t t e a c h i n g
c r e d e n t i a l r e t a i n e d .
1948 S p e c i a l i z e d i n A r c h i t e c t u r a l assignments ...Landscape
-
on: A r c h i t e c t u r e , gardens and play grounds, i n t e r i o r s ,
s c u l p t u r e , wall decoration and c o l o r planning.
Constant e x h i b i t o r i n l o c a l and n a t i o n a l museums and
y a l l e r l e s . Recipient of p r i z e s , purchase p r i z e s and
mentions i n San Francisco A r t shows and A r t F e s t i v a l s .
1964: 	 A study g r a n t w i t h t h e Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation
i n Lisbon, P o r t u g a l ... f o r t h e study of "Azulegaria"
tiles. A one man show i n E s t o r i a l of t i l e p a n e l s and
s c u l 2 t u r e made while i n Portugal. A medal from t h e
B r i t i s h Petroleum of P o r t u g a l , Lisbon, f o r an e x h i b i t
r e l a t e d t o t h e sea.
-
1965: Continued design and commissions i n San Francisco and 

.Bay Area, C a l i f o r n i a . 

Speak t h e languages o f countri,es v i s i t e d .
. LIST OF W
O
R
K
S
Ceramic Foo Dogs f o r Ping Yuen Housing Prcbject, and c o l o r 

plan. A r c h i t e c t : John Bolles , J.F. Ward. Sa. 

T i l e Mural, b l a c k and white, s e a motif ,. 400 s q . f t . f o r Reuben
H i l l s . A r c h i t e c t : Thomas Church.
Carved and glazed mural f o r Hamilton Recreation Center, San 

Francisco, hand pressed t i l e s , 450 sq. f t . A r c h i t e c t : 

William G. Merchant. 

High R e l i e f Mural; terra c o t t a g l a z e d , "Symbols o f Healing" 

Medical Building, 2320 S u t t e r St., San Francisco. 

A r c h i t e c t s : W. Herczka and W. Knowles. 

S t a t i o n s o f t h e Cross; t i l e s , f o r t h e Hanna Center f o r Boys,
p r i v a t e chapel. Sonoma, C a l i f o r n i a . A r c h i t e c t s :
5. John ~ o l i e s ,Mario Ciampi.
Fountain f o r t h e S h r i n e r ' s Hos2ital f o r Crippled Children, San
Francisco. Group o f glazed t e r r a cotta f i g u r e s .
A r c h i t e c t s : Stone Marraccini and P a t t e r s o n .
Fountain; glazed terra c o t t a , "Lotus Flower". IBM P r o j e c t ,
San J o s e , C a l i f o r n i a . Architect: John Bolles.
P r e h i s t o r i c Animals f o r c h i l d r e n s playground, Raynor Park,
Sunnyvale, C a l i f o r n i a . Park and Recreation Depart-
ment o f Sunnyvale. A r c h i t e c t s : Royston, Hanamoto ,
Mayes and Beck.
One Man Show of t i l e s , panels and s c u l p t u r e s i n E s t o r i l ,
Portugal. Work made while i n Portugal on a study
g r a n t w i t h t h e Caloust Gulbenkian Foundation i n
Lisbon, P o r t u g a l .
.
I n c i z e d l i n e mural. L a b o r e r s ' Fund Building, S u t t e r S t . , 

San Francisco. A r c h i t e c t s : C. Runge, A l f r e d Johnson. 

T i l e Mural f o r Almaden Vineyards, Don Pacheco Inn, T a s t i n g 

Room. High g l a z e . H o l l i s t e r , C a l i f o r n i a . 

A r c h i t e c t s : Thomas, D. Church. 

C h r i s t i n Benediction, g l a z e d f i g u r e , i n t h e round, 6 f t . on 

t h e c r o s s . Lutheran Sanctuary f o r the Good Sheperd. 

Concord, C a l i f o r n i a . A r c h i t e c t : A l f r e d W. Johnson. 

Glazed'and d e c o r a t e d p i p e forms. Fountains, garden seats, 

c o n t a i n e r s , t a b l e s , plaques and p l a y forms i n t h e 

Bay Area and n a t i o n a l l y . 

Garden S c u l p t u r e s and tiles f o r Georgia. A r c h i t e c t : Hubert
H. Owens.
Planning i n Color and M a t e r i a l s f o r a r c h i t e c t s and p r i v a t e 

c l i e n t s . 

GRANTS, SHOWS AND EXHIBITS,
PRIZES AND A
W
A
R
D
S
Study Grant: A s t u d y g r a n t i n "Azulejaria". C a l o u s t e Gulbenkian.
T i l e s : 1963-1964 P o r t u g a l . Foundation, Lisbon, P o r t u g a l .
Shows and E x h i b i t s : One man show, 1964, o f t i l e , E s t o r i l ,
P o r t u g a l . P a n e l s and s c u l p t u r e made d u r i n g s t u d y i n
P o r t u g a l from worl: done i n t h e f a c t o r y o f Viuva Lamego.
P r i z e s and Awards: Medal from t h e B r i t i s h Petroleum o f P o r t u g a l
f o r a d e s i g n r e l a t e d t o t h e s e a .
F i r s t P r i z e : O i l P a i n t i n g , 1935. National I n t e r c o l l e g i a t e
Competition, New York C i t y .
S c u l p t u r e , 1937. S e a t t l e Ark Museuin, S e a t t l e , Washington.
Continuous P a r t i c i p s t i o n : A r t shows, f e s t i v a l s and r e c i p i e n t
o f numerous p r i z e s , purchase p r i z e s , honorable mentions
s i n c e 1940. San F r a n c i s c o and Bay Area.
AN ARTIST'S RELIGIOUS W
O
R
K
S ON TILE AM) I N C
L
A
Y
[Interview date: January 19, 19841
DuCasse: Mary, where were you born and where were you educated?
Erckenbrack: Well, I was born i n Seattle, and lived i n Brazil and Europe.
While l i v i n g i n Brazil I attended school and learned the
language. I n Europe during my teens I spent several years
i n a Dominican convent school, Pensionnat Jeanne d'Arc, i n
LeHavre, France.
I came back t o S e a t t l e t o go t o the University of
Washington. And I took the a r t s , everythingIcould find i n
the a r t s . It was during the Depression, and I thought I ' d
b e t t e r do something t o earn a living, so I took anatomy.
They didn't have anything l i k e t h a t i n the a r t school, so I
took the premedic's dissection i n the anatomy department so
I could be a medical i l l u s t r a t o r , which I practiced. I took
everything I could there and I learned t o do everything t h a t
had t o be done, and I had many l i t t l e jobs t o do and they
kept on growing a s I was s t i l l i n school.
I n 1934 I married an a r c h i t e c t , A.E. Hennessy, and then
m
y work became more a r c h i t e c t u r a l r a t h e r than anatomical.
DuCa ss e : Did you do any church work t h a t f a r back?
Erckenbrack: I was doing a drawing f o r a mural t h a t I wanted t o do with
Paul Thiry, who was a very f i n e a r c h i t e c t i n Seattle, but it
never came through. By t h a t time, I went down t o Brazil
again, and then when I came back I lived here i n San Fran-
cisco, and I ' v e been here ever since.
DuCasse : When did you f i r s t come t o San Francisco, then?
Erckenbrack :
DuCass e:
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack :
DuCass e:
Erckenbrack:
DuCass e:
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse:
I n 1939, and I was i n the f a i r over there. [Golden Gate
International Exposition, Treasure Island]
And t h a t ' s where you got t o know Ruth Cravath and so many of
the other a r t i s t s ?
Yes. I was i n the A r t i n Action. Also Bea [Beatrice] Ryan
wanted t o know what I ' d l i k e t o do, and I said, "Well, why
not do a torso of Johnny Weissmuller? I n between performances,
he could pose f o r me.'' So t h a t ' s what I did i n the A r t i n
Action. And Ruth was doing a horse's head, and Dudley Carter
was chopping a t r e e , e t cetera.
Cecelia Graham wasmy f i r s t a r t i s t neighbor on Telegraph
H i l l . She introduced me t o Beatrice Judd Ryan and t o other
a r t i s t s who became m
y friends.
Then, did you s t a y i n San Francisco?
Yes, I decided t o l i v e here and s t a r t a business. M
y idea
was t o do good shape, good design, good color, and good
sculpture, and a l l of a sudden I ' m involved i n ceramics.
People thought t h a t was rather limiting, but I managed t o
build i t up. That was m
y business.
But l i t t l e by l i t t l e m
y work became architectural. I ' m
a painter, t o begin with, and I l i k e t o paint on t i l e ; I f e e l
t h e r e ' s a security on t i l e I don't find on paper.
I can see exactly what you mean by that.
I l i k e drawing, the loveliness of the l i n e , i t ' s always been
my favorite occupation and medium.
Well, Mary, when you were doing your ceramic work, did you
work always i n two-dimensional o r did you do some three-
dimensional work a t t h a t time?
Oh, I did l o t s of three-dimensional. I did a l o t of figures,
smaller, f o r the market. L i t t l e by l i t t l e they became bigger,
and f o r b e t t e r individual places, and t h a t became my work.
From then on I began working f o r landscape a r c h i t e c t s
and architects: murals and fountains and garden seats, every-
thing t h a t happens with the architecture, landscape, and the
home.
H
o
w did you come i n t o the f i e l d of l i t u r g i c a l a r t , o r church
a r t ?
I
Erckenbrack: 	 Well, I've always been interested. I t ' s been a l o t i n m
y


background. 

I was admiring Ruth Cravath f o r the work she was doing,
and before I knew it I was doing s t a t i o n s of the cross f o r
the s i s t e r s ' private chapel. The s t a t i o n s were on twelve-
inch-square t e r r a c o t t a quarry tile, done i n s g r a f f i t o ,
very small, very small. I told the story with the head
alone, except f o r the eleventh. I used the hand there.
a l s o made the Holy Water fonts f o r the main chapel, modelled
and glazed.
DuCasse : 	 This was f o r Hanna Center, was it not?
Erckenbrack: 	 For Hanna Center.
DuCasse: 	 I know we have those dates down somewhere. Do you remember
j u s t b r i e f l y what i n general they were? Was t h a t i n the
early s i x t i e s or was i t i n the f i f t i e s ?
Erckenbrack: 	 It had t o be f i f t i e s .
DuCasse: 	 Probably i n the f i f t i e s , right. You did your work f o r them
I imagine i n your own studio?
Erckenbrack: 	 Yes.
DuCasse : 	 But did you do any work up there i n place, l i k e she did?
Erckenbrack: 	 No, no. I wish I had. I ' d l i k e t o have helped her.
DuCasse: 	 Did you know the p r i e s t i n charge, the one t h a t she was so
fond o f ?
Erckenbrack: 	 I met him once. I know he was well liked and admired by
everyone. I liked him too, but I d i d n ' t know him t h a t well.
DuCass e: 	 I know he evidently was very sympathetic and interested i n
t h a t project, was very supportive.
And you did other work a f t e r t h a t , did you not, f o r the
church?
Erckenbrack: 	 I ' v e done smaller things, and even vignettes on tile. I've
done q u i t e a few things of t h a t nature. I came across one
the other day t h a t I ' d forgotten I ' d made. I made a
sculpture of Walking Madonna and Son i n t e r r a cotta. It
was exhibited here and i n Valyermo. Also I did a sand casting
of a madonna with l o c a l stones and materials, f o r Portugal.
In 1983 I was on a religious pilgrimage through I t a l y and
S i c i l y and put m
y many drawing from the t r i p on t i l e i n
color and sgraffito.
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack :
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack :
DuCasse :
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack :
DuCasse:
Did you exhibit i n t h a t exhibition t h a t we had i n 1952?
I hope I was there.
We'll check t h a t catalogue. You showed me t h i s brochure of
your work. It was 1 Genoa Place, your studio?
Yes.
Your place of business. The brochure shows much of t h e work
t h a t you were doing a t t h e time, and among the pictures i s
a Christ i n Benediction f o r a crucifix. Now, was t h a t i n
ceramic?
In ceramic, and i t was s i x f e e t high. And i t was beautifully
done i n very mild colors, and the head and the hands and the
f e e t were i n unglazed t e r r a cotta. And i t was a very simple design
'
and it was supposed t o hang f r e e l y , except something archi-
t e c t u r a l l y happened t o the building and they had t o take it
down from a hanging position. It is hanging, well placed,
now.
And t h i s was the Church of the Good Shepherd, a Lutheran
church i n Concord, California.
Yes.
And I think you t o l d me t h a t you did t h i s probably sometime
i n the s i x t i e s , wasn't that r i g h t ?
Yes, it would be mid-sixties, l a t e s i x t i e s , because I came
home from Portugal, where I ' d had a study grant. The
Gulbenkian Foundation s e n t m
e over t h e r e t o know everything
about t i l e . I actually did many, many things, religious and
otherwise.
What a marvelous opportunity f o r you t o expand your tech-
nique and knowledge.
When you were i n Portugal, then, you must have noticed
and seen a l o t of beautiful churches.
Oh yes. The d i r e c t o r of my studies, Dr. Santos Simogs, was
the head of a l l t h i s work, you know, and he would take me
everywhere, a l l over Portugal, north and south. I saw the
most extraordinary tiles and subjects t h a t you would never
see otherwise.
Oh, I ' m sure, because they were supposed t o be wonderful t i l e
makers.
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse :
Erckenbrack :
DuCasse :
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse :
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse :
Erckenbrack :
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse :
Erckenbrack :
DuCasse:
Erckenbrack:
DuCasse :
Yes. Well, i t ' s what they put on t h e t i l e .
Ah, yes, the decoration.
I had the run of the factory f o r s i x months, and then I had
a one-man show i n E s t o r i l a f t e r the work of s i x months was
over.
Did you bring these things back with you?
They were supposed t o come back by ship and they never
arrived. And I c a l l t h a t "the Portuguese promise": they
say i t w i l l be done and i t never gets off the dock.
[laughing]
H
o
w sad t h a t you couldn't have had these.
Yes, i t ' s one of the saddest things t h a t ever happened t o
me. I j u s t hate t o mention i t now.
When you came back from t h a t t r i p t o Portugal what were you
doing?
I came back t o the architectural work, and I did things of
many varieties. This is the one of the Crucifixion, the
Christ i n Benediction, t h a t I did a f t e r t h a t . There a r e
many small things. People want a s a i n t here and a something
there, but I w i l l forget that I've done them, and then I
catch up with them.
You have always been very a t home i n the church, no matter
which church it was.
I t r a v e l with them a l l the time too. O
n t h i s pilgrimage
i n 1983 with three p r i e s t s , we saw every shrine and every
grotto there was t o be found i n I t a l y and i n Sicily.
Did you go t o Monreale?
Oh, yes. It had the most beautiful things.
Those wonderful mosaics.
Absolutely. The most beautiful things. I didn't believe
they existed they were so lovely.
Have you ever worked i n mosaic i t s e l f ?
Erckenbrack: Not i n mosaic a s such, but i n small ways; sand casting, f o r
instance, I ' v e done t h a t . I use t h a t a s mosaic, and pebbles,
et cetera, but I haven't done any recently.
DuCasse: The way you have used your tiles very often is almost a s a
mosaic; you know, gathering them together and using them i n
groups.
Erckenbrack: Well, I l i k e t o use them a s a wall, as a painting, a s space,
and, a s I say, I ' m secure on t i l e , the colors there, rather
than on paper.
DuCasse: When you w e r e working with t h e clergy i n these two d i f f e r e n t
church things t h a t you did--the one i n Concord f o r t h e
Lutherans and the one f o r Hanna Center-do you remember
your association with the churchmen then, o r was i t pri-
marily through t h e a r c h i t e c t t h a t you had any association?
Erckenbrack: It was through the s i s t e r s and the architect.
DuCasse: A t Hanna Center, f o r instanc.e?
Erckenbrack: Yes. These a r e very small compared t o the work t h a t Ruth
did, but I have them on one wall, the fourteen stations.
The only problem was t h a t the fourth s t a t i o n , they couldn't
stand the agonized face of Mother Mary, so 1 had t o do it
over. I t r i e d t o soften i t , t o make a beautiful, p r e t t y
face. Those s t a t i o n s , with the red of the clay and the
matte white glaze, s t i l l look sharp now.
DuCasse: But t h i s demand t h a t things look p r e t t y , blue and white and
gold, e t cetera, t h i s was one of the reasons t h a t we had t o
form t h e Catholic A r t Forum, because of t h i s r e a l lack of
knowledge of what the s p i r i t can express i n other ways.
The a r t i s t knows t h i s already, but i t ' s very d i f f i c u l t ,
i s n ' t i t ?
Erckenbrack: I ' v e never q u i t e understood why they want, you know, j u s t
such a form t h a t they're accustomed t o , and t h e colors, and
a p r e t t y face; t h e r e ' s so much more t o it.
DuCasse: Well, I suppose i t ' s our twentieth-century concept of beauty,
but a very mundane one, not high a r t ; t h i s is i n t h e realm
of the catalogue a r t , which so many churches depended upon.
Erckenbrack: Well, there again you come i n t o the a r t i s t who becomes
greater than the reason f o r doing h i s piece of work. The
Bernini sculpture, the Santa Lucia i n Syracusa, became
Erckenbrack: greater than j u s t an image of t h e i r beloved s a i n t , St. Lucia,
the healer of a l l eye ailments. Maybe people love t o read
i n t o i t what they want t o read i n t o i t , and they probably
couldn't stand i t otherwise. After a l l , t h i s was not from
a drawing made of the s a i n t 2000 years ago. [laughter]
DuCasse: Well, you see, t h a t is the period [17th century] which
inspired the kind of a r t t h a t most churchmen look f o r today.
It i s t h a t very mundane kind of beauty, I ' m afraid.
Erckenbrack: Well, I've j u s t come back from the pilgrimage i n t h i s holy
year. I ' v e seen from Lourdes r i g h t down through Torino and
Padua and Florence and Rome and St. Michel, and a l l through
Naples and Sicily. Oh, the beauty outweighs any question
whatsoever, l i k e the mosaics i n Monreale.
It was r a t h e r an extraordinary pleasure t o go i n t o these
various grottoes, l i k e St. Rosalie up i n the Pellegrino
Mountain i n Palermo, above the h i l l s , and down i n t o Syracuse.
DuCass e: I n the a r t community i n general i n San Francisco, do you
remember i f they were a t a l l aware of the l i t u r g i c a l a r t
movement, the so-called "renaissance" of t h a t , i n which we
t r i e d t o bring good contemporary a r t form t o the churches?
Do you remember ever having any discussions with your fellow
a r t i s t s ?
Erckenbrack: 	 I know they t r i e d , and anything they t r i e d did bring up a
few good things, but t h a t ' s such a personal thing and a broad
question. ~ t ' s h a r dt o do t h a t , unless you're with the clergy
o r with the a r t i s t , and the patron. And I don't separate a
successful religious concept from other non-religious con-
cepts of work.
DuCasse: 	 True, and of course the patron has something t o do with t h a t
also. I thought you j u s t might have remembered i f there had
been any discussions among your fellow a r t i s t s who were not
religious a t a l l . I mean would they have even recognized
such a thing was happening, do you think?
Erckenbrack: 	 Well, I c a n ' t remember i n my school years anybody being a t
a l l interested, except t h a t c e r t a i n a r c h i t e c t s I knew i n
S e a t t l e were working.with churches. And here, m
y friends
a r e personally involved o r -
not personally interested, you
know. I don't know, I have t o go around and see f o r myself.
DuCasse: 	 Are you s t i l l now working on your t i l e s and your ceramic work?
Erckenbrack: 	 Yes.
DuCasse: D
o you have commissions s t i l l ?
Erckenbrack: No, I don't have any yet, a t t h i s moment, but I ' m hoping to
get one, a good one; I ' m ready f o r a nice commission.
Otherwise I'll make the things that make a commission.
Generally, t h a t ' s how the jobs come; they see something
they like.
DuCasse : Were you ever i n contact with Mario Ciampi?
Erckenbrack: He was one of the architects with John Bolles on the Hanna
Center. I haven't done a commission for him since.
DuCasse: It seems t o m
e t h a t there's a man who might possibly have
more work again, f o r the church. Another one is Paul Ryan.
Did you ever know Paul Ryan?
Erckenbrack: I have,
i f he's
but I haven't seen him f o r
s t i l l operating.
a long time. I don't know
DuCasse: Yes, he is, but he's semiretired. He hasn't done any
churches for a long time, but one never knows. What I ' m
leading up t o is t h a t I think i t ' s good i f you j u s t remind
these people t h a t you're s t i l l working.
Erckenbrack: I've been wanting t o make some new things, t o make big
things, t o do new work t o show them something new. So
t h a t ' s what m
y i n t e n t i s t h i s year, t o get busy with new
works.
DuCasse: This i s what I think reanimates the a r t i s t , when you can
come up with something which w i l l be a challenge f o r you
again, you see.
Erckenbrack: I did t h a t [gesturing a t a wood carving] when I f i r s t
t o San Francisco.
came
DuCasse: That's a handsome piece.
And then of course when I got t o know you b e t t e r was
when you were working i n Ruth's stone yard.
Erckenbrack: Well, t h a t ' s what I ' m saying, most ofmy work has been i n
marble i n the past few years. Only one of them out there
has not sold. The others are i n somebody's home o r garden.
DuCasse: I always loved that one with the bodies twisted.
that located?
Where is
-.
, S. F. Artist's Fountain
. For San Jose Plan+
scene within a week.
-
iUTEST CREATION.
a number of works on display
at the current exhibition of
landscape archtecture at the
Sm Francisco Museum of Art.
, Theq include a wWe In gold,
black and green and 8 model
of the fountain to be installed
: at the IBM plant at San Jose.
The fountain, which w
i
l
l be
in r pool rmrrounded by black
@mite, & comtnrcted of free
flowing wgments that a n be
, -
.
-- -- .
Erckenbrack: That's i n Marshall Douglas's garden. And I want t o do t h a t
i n clay now. I decided t o j u s t embellish i t more, build i t
up, spend more time on it. There a r e c e r t a i n things you
can do with clay you can't do with stone and v i c e versa.
In stone one s t a r t s with the volume.
I r e a l l y became attached t o marble because, having
turned work out i n clay for so many years, i t ' s a tremendous
pleasure t o do j u s t one thing, and do a good job, and do a
good thing, and l e t t h a t be your one finished e f f o r t . But,
of course, you always do tons of things i n between.
DuCasse: Ruth loved having you there because you worked a s a t r u e
a r t i s t works, and what you did was a stimulation f o r the r e s t
of us t o watch.
Erckenbrack: She said t h a t , and I f e l t b e t t e r about that. I was between
studios and moving, and I was p r e t t y unhappy about i t , and
I was t h r i l l e d t o be there. Ruth l e t me come i n , and I was
j u s t delighted.
DuCasse: You mentioned several things t h a t you've done f o r a person's
garden, or something l i k e that. What were some s p e c i f i c
things you did with a r c h i t e c t s and landscape a r c h i t e c t s ?
Erckenbrack: Well, I've done q u i t e a few murals i n l a n a i s a n d , i n pools,
group figures. The Shriner's Hospital, t h a t was a long time
ago. And the l i t t l e Chinese dogs a t Ping Yuen gateway,
which a r e probably a l l torn apart now. And many a r e i n
fireplaces, and walls i n the house with a fireplace backing
it. A l l s o r t s of things-garden s e a t s , mats, p o r t r a i t s , e t c .
Anda mural a t t h e Almaden Vineyards t a s t i n g room. And
color planning f o r t h e c i t y . Also a t i l e carved mural on
the face of Hamilton Recreation Center a t Post and Steiner.
I've even done drinking fountains, f o r instance, a t
Portsmouth Square, and t i l e tables. I used t o glaze a l o t
of sewer pipe f o r play tunnels f o r children t o climb through,
and t h e t i l e pipe f o r drinking fountains, and t h e big animals
f o r a play park, Raynor Park, i n Sunnyvale. Did you see
those?
DuCasse: They a r e i n your l i t t l e brochure i n here, yes.
Erckenbrack: A twenty-five-foot dinosaur,
They were done i n cement.
and a nine-foot pterodactyl.
So I ' m always working with gardens and architecture.
DuCasse: 	 That's a lovely one you did f o r Shriner's Hospital, glazed
t e r r a cotta.
Erckenbrack: 	 But t h a t has been torn apart now. I added new figu=s.and
d e t a i l s f o r the pool fountain, but I think they took the
o r i g i n a l figures eventually i n t o the d i r e c t o r ' s setup.
DuCasse: 	 Well, much a s I ' d l i k e t o extend t h i s , do you f e e l t h a t you've
given us a l l t h a t you can?
Erckenbrack: 	 I ' m sure there's always more, but I ' m glad we had t h i s much.
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancrof t Library Berkeley, Calffornia
Renaissance of Relfgious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Antonio Sotomayor 

[1902-19851 

An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse 

i n 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- A n t o n i o Sotomayor
INTERVIEW HISTORY
REREDOS COMMISSIONED FOR ST. AUGUSTINEtS CHURCH, PLEASANTON
"LA MADRE DE LOS POBRES"
GRACE CATHEDRAL MURAL PANELS
"STAND-INS FOR HUMANITY"
CARICATURES--PIED PIPER ROOM, PALACE HOTEL--AND POLITICAL
CARTOONING
i
b. 	 May 13, 1902
d. 	 February 10, 1985
San Francisco Chronscle February 12;1985
. 	Antonio Sotomayor,
City's 'Artist Laureate'
Antonio Sotomayor, the popu-
lar "artist laureate" of San Francis-
co whose festive muralsand decora-
' tions have come to symbolize the
city, died Sunday of cancer at the
CommunityHospice. He was 82.
The versatile Mr. Sotomayor
was recognized as a fine painter,
caricaturist, illustrator, designer
and ceramicist. He is perhaps best
known for murals and paintings
that have graced San Francisco
buildingsfor the past 50years.
. Mr. Sotomayor's joyous, color-
ful work prompted one critic to d e
sbribehim asthe artist who "helped
&t the smile on San Francisco."
L'
His set decorations and mural
Gckdrops were de rigueur for the
city's splashiest galas, including
opera and symphony parties, the
dkbutante cotillionsand the Bache
lors' and Spinsters' balls.
: "Why paint if you don't want
peopletoseeit?" theartist oncetold
an interviewer.
; A native of Chulumani,Bolivia.
Mr.Sotomayorcame to SanFrancis-
.cbin 1923.
r Unable to find an architectural
jqb, he toiled as a dishwasher at the
OFPalace Hotel, drawing carica-
tyes of chefs and co-workers. His
employers noticed his work and
niade him the hotel's artist-in-resi-
dence. . .
: Over the past halfcentury, Mr.
Spmayor's work has been shown
aktheM. H.deYoung MemorialMu-
s h m in San Francisco, #) other
Atnerican cities and F'rance, Spain,
Itsly, Mexico and South America.
: The artist's last piece was a
huge 10-panelmural for Grace Ca-
ANTONIO SOTOMAYOR

Joyous, colorful work

thedral in San Francisco, which he
finished while recovering from an
operation for cancer in 1981.
Educated at the Escuelade Bel-
leasArtsin Boliviaand the oldMark
Hopkins Institute of Art in San
Francisco, Mr. Sotomayor taught at
Mills College and the California
Schoolof Fine Arts.
. He is survived by his wife,
Grace. They had been marrled for
58years.
A memorial Mass will be held
onThursday,5:30p.m., attheOld St.
Mary's Church at California Street
and Grant Avenue.
Contributions may be made to
the In-Patient Unit of the San Fran-
cisco Community Hospice, 1
0
2
0
Haight Street. San Francisco 94117.
L
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Antonio Sotomayor, i n the interview which follows, made a most important
comment on the essence of the association we a l l experienced a s members of
the Catholic A r t Forum i n its f i r s t years: ours was a fellowship among
colleagues i n a l l branches of the a r t s , and it deepened i n t o a friendship
t h a t has mellowed with time and survived the demise of t h a t great organiza-
t i o n when its work was f i n a l l y concluded. That fellowship was a fringe
benefit t h a t has been treasured by each of us who were participants i n those
exciting and f r u i t f u l beginnings i n the 1950s. N
o matter how much t i m e
elapses between encounters, we always pick up where we l e f t off, a warm and
steady undercurrent of friendship and association welling up around us a s we
meet.
It was s o when I spent the afternoon with Soto and Grace. Their
charming apartment on Nob H i l l serves primarily a s Soto's studio, and one
wall is lined with panels he is presently working on, i n the continuing
project f o r Grace Cathedral. This was indeed a most congenial and in-
spiring environment f o r a journey.back i n t o time and the beginnings of the
Catholic A r t Forum and Sotomayor's place i n i t s formation and development.
In the 1950s Antonio Sotomayor was one of the most i l l u s t r i o u s and
sought-after a r t i s t s i n San Francisco. He had empathy f o r the cause of
contemporary a r t i n the Church, and was an enthusiastic collaborator when-
ever possible as an active member of t h e Forum. H i s wife Grace shared
t h i s i n t e r e s t , and added a great deal by her sagacious comments a t board
meetings and other occasions during the Forum's years of a c t i v i t y . For m
e
the interview opened up so many memories of a very stimulating association
begun i n 1953 with Antonio and Grace Sotomayor.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office University of California
R
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m 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
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Date of birth Ma1/
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"ART THAT EXPLAINS"
[Interview date: April 20, 19831
Reredos Commissioned f o r St. Augustine's Church, Pleasanton
DuCasse: 	 This tape i s being made i n Antonio Sotomayor's studio, and I w i l l
begin r i g h t away with a short biographical sketch.
Antonio Sotomayor writes: "I was born i n a l i t t l e town i n
a valley of t h e Bolivian highlands where the richness of t h e
t r o p i c a l plant and animal l i f e and the colorful, bizarre costumes
and grotesque f e s t i v a l masks of the Indians excited m
y imagination
so t h a t a s a child I was always sketching. When I was about
eleven years old, some of m
y Indian neighbors who had seen m
y
drawings asked m
e t o help them with a miracle. They had found a
stone i n the r i v e r which reminded them of a s a i n t , and they wanted
me t o touch it up t o make it e a s i e r t o recognize.
I1
I went t o school i n La Paz, the c a p i t a l c i t y , up on the
Andean Plateau, surrounded by gigantic snow-capped mountains.
Here, a t t h e age of f i f t e e n , I began t o contribute drawings and
caricatures t o newspapers and magazines.
"When I came t o t h e United States, I intended t o study
architecture a t the University of California, but I found myself
painting and exhibiting here, throughout t h e country, and i n
Europe and South America. Ever since I touched up t h a t f i r s t
r i v e r stone i n Chulimani, I have been interested i n sculpture
too, especially terra-cotta, and I l i k e complicated problems.
Of these, the huge, very d i f f i c u l t terra-cotta "Map--Foundation
of the Pacific," which I did f o r t h e San Francisco World's Fair
of 1939, was one of the most challenging. I have a l s o made what
is perhaps the largest drawing ever done on paper, sixty-four by
ninety f e e t , a s a backdrop f o r the "Festival of Faith," held a t
the San Francisco Cow Palace f o r the celebration of the tenth
anniversary of t h e United Nations. "
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCass e:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse :
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
Well, Soto, that is r e a l l y a beautiful introduction t o your l i f e
and t o your a r t , and from here on we w i l l g e t your own personal
observations about many of these things. One of the things I
was going t o ask you you've almost answered i n t h a t very lovely
biography, but I'd l i k e t o get a more generalized idea of when
you f i r s t became aware of a l i t u r g i c a l a r t movement? Maybe you
knew of i t i n Europe? O r was i t i n t h e United States? Do you
remember when you became conscious of t h a t movement?
Well, i t seems t o me t h a t I have always thought of religious
a r t a s one of the most wonderful creations of man. And not only
t h a t , but I always admired the temples and churches--that the
human imagination could do these things a s homage from t h e heart
t o the belief i n God.
So t h i s has always been a very r e a l thing t o you.
It was always i n back of m
y mind, it was always with me, the idea
of contributing something t o t h e church o r religion.
Did you know much about what was going on i n Europe i n the
t h i r t i e s and the f o r t i e s and f i f t i e s when t h a t movement began
t o accelerate?
Yes, since my l i f e was connected with a r t , I was aware of a l l the
changes i n the movements i n a r t and t h e application of modern a r t
and i n t h e church. I joined a group i n San Francisco. Do you
remember, Micaela, the group t h a t o r i g i n a l l y was t o get together
the works of a r t t o be exhibited a t the de Young Museum?
Ah, yes. The religious a r t show i n 1953.
Yes. And I saw i t a s a very i n t e r e s t i n g idea, and I would l i k e
t h i s idea again t o be repeated because t h i s i s many years.
True. It has been t h i r t y years, exactly, t h i s year!
Would you l i k e t o hear some of the works I
'did f o r churches?
Definitely, yes, we want t o have you t e l l us about t h a t , but
f i r s t , because you spoke of it, i n t h a t exhibit a t t h e de Young
Museum you had a very beautiful reredos f o r an a l t a r piece with
painted backgrounds and a terra-cotta corpus. You were t e l l i n g
me what eventually happened t o t h a t , and I think t h a t should go
on tape.
Well, o r i g i n a l l y t h a t concept came i n Pleasanton. There was
a church t h a t had been renovated. Sometimes work comes i n such
a curious and many times i n a very humble way. I knew a house
Sotomayor: 	 painter--they painted houses, buildings--and he phoned me one 

day. A t t h e t i m e I had my s t u d i o a t t h e Palace Hotel. I m e t 

him a c t u a l l y while he was engaged i n p a i n t i n g one of t h e l a r g e 

rooms a t t h e Palace and i n conversation I s a i d , "What do you 

want me t o do?" 

And he said, "I am doing t h i s i n Pleasanton, and i t is a
church, and would you be i n t e r e s t e d i n doing some work f o r that?"
I s a i d I would be delighted because it would be a tremen-
dous p o s s i b i l i t y f o r me t o do something t h a t I always l i k e t o
do. Curiously enough, we were t o meet t h e following day.
But then at lunchtime I was alone, and I began t o speculate
what problem I would have t o f a c e there. And then on a p i e c e of
paper I thought, i f i t ' s a very large, blank space behind t h e
a l t a r I would l i k e t o do a l a r g e cross, very much a s t h e paintings
t h a t they d i d i n t h e t h i r t e e n t h and twelfth centuries but instead
of t o be a small one it should be large. And then i t should be
f i l l e d , a s they did then.
The next day he came and took m e t o Pleasanton, and I m e t
t h e p r i e s t who was i n charge of t h e whole p r o j e c t , and he took
me t o t h e church, and i t was exactly t h e way I had figured out,
and I said, s i n c e I ' d already done a sketch and had i t i n my
pocket, "What do you think? Could we do something l i k e that?"
He s a i d , "That's wonderful! Go ahead and do it!" And
t h i s was my f i r s t experience i n Pleasanton. The church was
dedicated t o St. Augustine. And I had some information about
t h e l i f e of St. Augustine, I had already read some of h i s ideas.
And t h i s was when they asked me t o b r i n g t h a t altar t o
San Francisco f o r t h a t exhibition a t t h e de Young Museum, but
it was too l a r g e , s o I had t o borrow t h e same idea, only using
t h e l i f e of St. Francis, and i t was exhibited there. Eventually,
a f t e r t h e exhibition--a club t h a t I belong t o , s t a r t e d i n a place
i n Guatemala c a l l e d Nuevo Progresso, wanted members of t h e
Family Club, of which I a m a member, t o contribute. They went
t h e r e with t h e idea of t o retire, but then they suddenly found
t h a t a number of people needed expertise--they need doctors--
and then they began and eventually t h e club was a b l e t o g e t
enough funds i n order t o b u i l d a h o s p i t a l , and they c a l l e d i t
E l Hospital d e l a Familia. So t h e l a r g e c r o s s has now found
a home i n Nuevo Progresso, i n Guatemala, i n t h e chapel of the
hosp ita1.
DuCasse: 	 I s n ' t t h a t wonderful t h a t i t should have ended up i n t h a t
place!
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse :
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor :
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
W
e might t a l k now about the formation of the Catholic A r t Forum
a f t e r t h a t exhibit. You were one of the founding members of
that.
Yes, and t h e idea was very active, there were a number of
a r t i s t s , there were a r c h i t e c t s , and still today we do have more
or l e s s s h a l l I say not almost a friendship but almost a brother-
hood! [laughing]
Yes, most of u s s t i l l r e t a i n our comradeship from those times
even though t h e Catholic A r t Forum was put t o sleep, so t o speak,
a t one point.
But a t t h a t same time, you know, you always a r e a p a r t of it.
I think you never actually get away from t h i s idea.
The Vatican Council I1 changed the whole emphasis of the l i t u r g y ,
and f o r awhile art didn't seem t o be a necessary p a r t of it, and
I think maybe t h a t was a time when something l i k e the Catholic
A r t Forum had no more function.
It seems t o m
e t h a t at t h a t period t h a t they began to--architects
especially--to t r y t o find another form t o express t h e culture
of the church, and now we do have here i n San Francisco St. Mary's
Cathedral.
Yes, I wanted t o ask you what you thought of St. Mary's Cathedral?
Oh, i t ' s a very impressive building. Especially I l i k e the
inside, when you a r e inside these beautiful contributions of
some'artists t o decorate o r t o inspire.
What p a r t i c u l a r p a r t of t h a t i n t e r i o r were you impressed with?
Well, especially the a l t a r .
Yes, and t h a t beautiful baldachino by Richard Lippold.
"La Madre de 10s Pobres''
W
e v i s i t e d many other modern churches. I n B r a s i l i a there was
one, and then t h e r e w a s another one i n Rio de Janeiro.
They've done a great deal i n Latin America, have they not?
Sotomayor: Oh, yes. Especially i n the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries,
and during a l a r g e part of the eighteenth, they constructed a t
t h a t time most of t h e churches i n t h e Baroque s t y l e . And they
were very beautiful, especially two o r three I remember by
Mexican architects. And they a r e beautiful churches. I loved
these churches i n Mexico, the Baroque s t y l e i n a r t i f a c t s , very
strong expressions of the architectural.
DuCasse: Yes, they r e a l l y a r e extraordinary. Sometimes almost too much!
You were mentioning another church here i n our area, Grace?
[speaking t o Grace Sotomayor]
Grace : The Methodist Church a t Hillsdale.
Sotomayor: I did t h e facade i n glass mosaic.
or praying with a l a r g e cross.
There were two hands pleading
[shows p i c t u r e of a mural] I have one i n Tijuana, i n
Mexico. It seems t h a t the s i s t e r of one of the ex-presidents
of Mexico had approached Father [Alfred] Boeddeker who has
s t a r t e d here and been most successful i n help t o the poor.
DuCasse: Oh, yes. St. Anthony's Dining Room.
Sotomayor: St. Anthony's Dining Room. And he saw t h a t they have a chapel
there and the chapel would need some a r t , and he had the idea
t h a t i t should be "La Madre de 10s Pobres," the Mother of the
Poor. So he decided t h a t t h i s should be the theme and then he
suggested perhaps the Virgen de Guadalupe, who is the Patroness
of Mexico. I made a sketch with the Virgin but it had t o have
praying. And only a s herself I added t h e one hand giving
bread t o t h e poor, and a number of Mexican characters around
her, and then I a l s o included the child Jesus helping h i s mother
d i s t r i b u t e bread.
DuCasse: Oh, i t ' s lovely.
Sotomayor: It was very touching. When the painting was i n s t a l l e d a t t h e
chapel there were about two o r three thousand people t h a t came.
They came with musicians t o play f o r t h e Virgin. And some of
these people expressed such feeling when they saw t h i s
paintingsthey came and they kissed m
y hand, and I f e l t s o
touched and humbled with the emotional feelings of these people.
Father Boeddeker told m
e i t ' s always open and many people they
constantly go i n t o see i t and pray.
DuCasse: I t ' s a very beautiful adaptation of Our Lady of Guadalupe. You
have her exactly a s she i s except f o r the one beautiful gesture
of offering bread t o the poor.
Sotomayor: I haven't made very many changes from the original.
DuCasse: No, no,
lovely.
there a r e no changes except t h a t one hand! Which i s
Sotomayor: I wished especially t o follow the suggestion of Father Boeddeker
that t h i s should be the mother of the pobres and f o r the pobres
the most important thing f i r s t is t o eat! Bread, you know.
DuCasse: Were there any commissions besides t h i s one that you remember
t h a t you might l i k e t o t a l k about that you did?
Sotomayor: Religious commissions? Well yes. You know how the t r e e s i n a
redwood grove frequently tend t o grow i n c i r c l e s ? These c i r c l e s ,
I found out, a r e called "cathedrals." Well, my friends Ann and
Richard Miller have a place i n the country called "The Island."
It's beautiful, l i k e the s e t t i n g f o r a f a i r y t a l e , with a small
lake surrounded by wild azalea and towering redwoods. The
Millers had an idea, and invited m
e t o see t h e i r redwood
I'
cathedraln--fourteen t r e e s growing i n a c i r c l e . They wanted
t o have the fourteen s t a t i o n s of the cross there, and asked me
t o do them. I executed them i n bas-relief i n t e r r a cotta.
Each one i s about eighteen inches square, and attached t o one
of the trees.
The s t y l e is r e a l i s t i c modern. I have reduced t h e v i s u a l
image of each event of the drama of the crucifixion t o its
e s s e n t i a l elements. And since the original creators of the
devotion of t h e s t a t i o n s of the cross were the Franciscans, a
p r i e s t of the Franciscan order, Father Boedekker, gave them
h i s blessing.
DuCasse: D
o you think t h a t t h e r e ' s any change now i n the need f o r a r t i n
the church with the change i n the l i t u r g i c a l functions and t h e
simplification of a l o t of t h i s ?
Sotomayor: You know, a r t i t is a p a r t of humanity. Perhaps, you know,
f o r awhile i t ' s not much used o r thought o f , b ~ t
a r t always
returns, and many times even they t r y t o revive a movement.
For instance during the Renaissance they brought back Greek
and Roman a r t , but they expressed it i n a d i f f e r e n t way.
Even i n the work of Michelangelo, who took h i s models
from there, but a t the same time they expressed t h e i r time.
Because the Greek gods were devoid of the idea of h e l l . They
were much more interested i n what they were doing.
DuCasse: I n the l i f e of t h i s world!
Sotomayor: But i n Michelangelo's sculptures there i s a t e r r i b l e feeling of
condemnation! [laughing] They a r e not tranquil o r peaceful
images. There is a tremendous warring.
DuCasse: A turmoil.
Sotomayor: Turmoil.
DuCasse: Of course, we're going through turmoils i n our time,
the a r t w i l l have t o express t h a t .
and maybe
tomayor: Well, the church i s r e a l l y trying t o bring a l i t t l e more sense!
[laughing] Telling the world what is going on! I wouldn't be
surprised i f a r t w i l l find a way of complementing it.
DuCass e: True. Well, there w i l l always be t h a t struggle,
express things i n our own time.
no doubt, t o
Sotomayor: Yes. You know, the other day we were talking about progress
and I don't think there is progress, it's j u s t change.
DuCasse: True.
b e t t e r
Yes, a r t r e a l l y changes. It does not necessarily get
o r worse from one age t o the next!
Sotomayor: No.
Grace Cathedral Mural Panels
DuCasse: One of the very i n t e r e s t i n g things t o m
e is how active you s t i l l
a r e i n your work. It was so impressive t o see the murals t h a t
you've done f o r Grace Cathedral and t h a t you are doing s t i l l
more.
Sotomayor: Yes, there w i l l be t h i r t y panels.
DuCasse: And how many were dedicated recently?
Sotomayor: Fifteen, h a l f , those on t h e north wall. It's much more t h e
history of t h e Episcopal church i n California. I f e e l t h a t
most religions a r e brought from outside, from f a r . It's l i k e
a plant t h a t i t has t o be brought and then i t has t o be
nourished; they have t o develop, t o grow.
The subjects a r e t h e f i r s t Grace Church i n San Francisco
i n 1849, and the other one i t ' s i n t h e group of the f i r s t
church of the Grace Cathedral here. And the other group i t ' s
about the school t h a t t h e cathedral organized. N
o
w I have
the f i v e panels-- [tape interruption]
written in March 1983
PRITLIMINARY P
L
A
N
S AND MEMORIAL GIFT
For eighteen years, since the completion of Grace
Cathedral, the blind arcades i n t h e eastern bays of the
nave a i s l e s stood unadorned. The cmple,tion of the a i s l e
murals has been a s i l e n t challenge t o latter-day cathedral
deans and prospective donors. Dean David Mo Gillespie,
sixth dean of the cathedral, took up the 'challenge when,
i n 1981, a memorial g i f t made the project possible- The
tragic death on Marin Island of former cathedral trustee
Henry Miller Bowles (1918-1981) led t o the idea of a ca-
thedral mural series in.his' memory, 'The three north a i s l e
murals are h i s memorial, The Murphy, Powell, and Bowles
families gave 'the south a i s l e murals,
The search for an a r t i s t equal t o the task led Dean
Gillespic t o the a r t i s t Antonio Sotomayor, Born i n Chulu-
mani, Bolivia i n 1902, Sotomayor studied i n La Paz under
the Belgian master Adolf Lambert, By the age of f i f t e e n
he was contributing illustrations t o Bolivian magazines
and newspapers. In i923 Sotomayor came t o the Bay Area,
After several years of work and study ha became a teacher
a t M i l l s College and the California School of Fine Arts.
Famed for h i s caricatures, paintings, and book i l l u s t r a -
tions, he created the Peruvian Pavilion murals and the
Pacific Area Fountain (under restoration) for the 1939
Treasure Island Fair, For many years he designed s e t s
and costumes f o r the San Francisco Ballet a s w e l l a s
backdrops for many civic and social events, A member of
the San Francisco A r t Commission for over a decade, Soto-
mayor received their Award of Honor i n 1978.
Antonio Sotomayor has had over eighty one-man shows,
i n the United States and abroad, H i s work is represented
i n several museums, notably the SaneFranciscoMuseum of
Modern A r t , M i l l s College, the Pasadena Museum of Modern
A r t , t h e San Diego Fine Arts Museum, the Newark Museum,
IBM, and the Museo de La Plata (Argentina) a s well a s many
private collections, Major religious works by Sotmayor
include the glass mosaic facade of Hillsdale Methodist
Church.(1956) and t h e oil-on-canvas reredos of Saint Au-
gustine's Roman Catholic Church, Pleasanton (1948)- A
lifelong i n t e r e s t i n mural painting has led him from t h e
prehistoric paintings of Lascaux and Altamira t o murals
i n t h e great cathedrals of France, Spain and I t a l y ,
A f o r t y y e a r resident of Nob H i l l , Sotomayor and h i s
wife Grace l i v e and work i n t h e i r charming LeRoy Place
home, half a block from t h e cathedral close, An i n t e l l e c t -
ual and cultivated m9n, 'Soto' r e t a i n s much of the genteel
quality of Latin American culture and a still-strong Latin
accent,
MURAL CRFATION AND INSTALLATION
The need f o r a durable, yet portable, support f o r t h e
new murals (Sotomayor did most of the work a t home? led t o
a departure from the method and medium of the e a r l i e r De-
Rosen murals. Treated plywood (rather than in-place plas-
ter) panels were used a s the support for a high-quality
linen mounted on the surface. Two coats of gesso were then
applied t o t h e linen (canvas), Acrylic (rather than ear-
l i e r wax tempera) paint was used, acrylic being a p l a s t i c
r e s i n miscible with water, which d r i e s t o an i n e r t and
durable form, Painted features were b u i l t up from t h i n pre-
liminary washes. A s w i t h ! t h e e a r l i e r murals, gold leaf was
us& i n several areas, being applied i n small sheets onto
a special varnish, Each completed mural panel was glued t o
f i v e horizontal wooden supports which were, i n turn, nail-
ed t o three v e r t i c a l wooden supports, The whole assembly
was bolted t o t h e wall with nine steel b o l t s s e t i n t o
*
holes.drilled i n the concrete, The inscribed bases w a e
installed below each panel,
Working i n h i s living room, temporarily converted
i n t o a studio, Sotomayor began work on each mural with a
small preliminary color sketch , based on the theme sub-
mitted t o him by Dean Gillespie i n consultation with t h e
Fabric Committee. After revisions and apprwal by the
dean and committee, full-scale drawings (cartoons) were
pre,pared (charcoal on tissue paper 1, Upon approval, the
drawings were transferred by hand from paper t o panel,
Farly i n March, 1982, work on the first (Grace Chapel)
mural was begun,. . Historical information, photographs,
etc, supplied by the cathedral archivist guided Sotomayor
i n mural d e t a i l s but a r t i s t i c considerations (composition,
color, e t c.) took precedence when necessary, Symbolism
and evocative mood were of equal, and not. infrequently
greater, importance than h i s t o r i c a l detail. Sotomayor a l s o
t r i e d t o maintain a dignified and s p i r i t u a l tone i n the ,
murals, with occasional lighter touches (animals, etc.),
When largely completed, each s e t of panels was taken
t o the cathedral and examined under the (darker) lighting
conditions of t h e i r 'installation site, Corrections and ad-
justments followed i n the a r t i s t ' s studio, Installation of
the f i r s t three murals (north a i s l e ) took place i n l a t e Oc-
tober and early November, 1982, These murals were dedicated
following Evensong on February 3, 1983, Bishop Swing,offi-
ciatsd, assisted by Dean Gillespie and the cathedral choir,
Work began on the l a s t three (south a i s l e ) murals i n mid-
January 1983, and continued u n t i l the end of September. Un-
l i k e the f i r s t mural s e t , each of the 'south aisli? murals
was installed upon completion ( i n the order- Grace Church,
United Nations, ~ikoumene).These murals were dedicated by
Dean Gillespie following Wensong on October 6, 1983,
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotornayor :
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCass e:
Sotomayor:
DuCass e:
Sotomayor :
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
The old Grace Church was on California and Stockton, and during
the earthquake and f i r e i n 1906 it was destroyed. Grace
Cathedral is much more spectacular I think.
I ' m preparing two other groups.
These a r e d e f i n i t e l y of the construction of the Grace Church,
the ones t h a t you're working on now.
Yes, and they a r e t h i s time of the bishops a t the time i n
charge.
It's wonderful t h a t t h i s kind of thing can be done now. The
history of a l l of our churches is important.
I think i t ' s wonderful, you know, t o make people conscious of
the history of churches i n San Francisco.
Grace Cathedral has the i d e a l s i t u a t i o n f o r it. Those areas
below t h e windows a r e a perfect space f o r i t t o be b u i l t .
And they have beautiful windows, and very handsome.
Magnificent, those very modern windows. Do you know anything
about those windows?
I know very l i t t l e , but the only thing is t h a t I enjoy them!
After you complete these panels, w i l l the history continue on
down past 1906?
There is 1906, then there w i l l be a group of f i v e panels about
modern history, the United Nations i n San Francisco i n 1945.
I think t h a t ' s a very i n t e r e s t i n g project because a t the t i m e
the church had a number of standards o r f l a g s of the countries
t h a t came t o San Francisco.
Then the other one w i l l be ecumenical--the archbishop of
London shaking hands with t h e archbishop of San Francisco's
Roman Catholic Church! [laughing]
That w i l l be a very good one t o add.
A r t , especially t h i s type of a r t , i t ' s t o be seen, t o t r y t o
explain what you can say about the theme. A r t , especially
painting o r music, it has a d i f f e r e n t way of expressing i t s e l f .
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse :
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
DuCasse:
Sotomayor:
It does have, but what i s wonderful i s t h a t t h i s was done i n
past ages i n the church. Certainly during the Gothic period
there were many h i s t o r i c a l paintings and murals t h a t were done
-
i n the churches f o r the period.
Yes, with characters of people o r kings of the time, and there
i s a precedent f o r t h a t , because years pass, and the only thing
t h a t remains i s whatever i s recorded.
I think t h a t we should bring i n a few more d e t a i l s about the
commissioning of these murals f o r Grace Cathedral, and maybe
you can t e l l us something about t h e person who actually asked
you t o do them.
I was invited by Dean Gillespie f o r the cathedral. He asked
m
e i f I would be interested i n completing the murals at the
cathedral, since half of the murals had been painted by a
muralist from Holland. He did t h i r t y panels, and there were
another t h i r t y panels t o complete.
That was some years back, wasn't i t ?
Many, many years back. The muralist was DeRosen, and he died
not long ago, maybe two o r three months ago, a t the age of
ninety-three o r ninety-two. And the murals he had they were
more o r l e s s on t h e process of--
Tempera?
I think it's tempera, but they a r e more l i k e frescoes, and each
panel i s 9
'
6
'
' by 3'6" wide.
Dean Gillespie i s an architect. He studied architecture,
and i t was very nice I could t a l k with him t h e problems.
You yourself studied it at one time, did you not?
I wanted t o be an architect, but t h i s was much more m
y f a t h e r
trying t o protect me from- With a r t , l i v i n g is very uncertain.
M
y father was a businessman, and he thought perhaps that I
could apply t h i s t a l e n t t o something much more remunerative.
What we have there I painted on plywood covered with linen
and painted with acrylics, and the e f f e c t i s very much l i k e
the fresco. And then there is another advantage, especially
we l i v e i n a c i t y where the p o s s i b i l i t y of earthquakes i s
always with us, and they w i l l be salvaged much more readily
than i f they were painted d i r e c t l y on the w a l l .
DuCasse: Acrylics a r e a l s o so very much more l a s t i n g . Fresco is a very
f r a g i l e medium r e a l l y , and o i l a l s o can be affected by climatic
changes.
Sotomayor: Acrylics technique is very much l i k e fresco actually.
DuCasse: It is, because you can do i t i n a matte form, can't you?
Sotomayor: It's l i k e a watercolor.
DuCasse: And you can build it up and do whatever you wish with it.
"Stand-ins f o r Humanity"
DuCasse: This brings me back t o asking you more about t h e reredos you
did f o r St. Augustine's Church [Pleasanton, CAI, and a l s o t h e
one you then did l i k e it f o r the exhibit a t t h e de Young i n
1953. Would you t e l l us a l i t t l e b i t about the technique you
used f o r t h a t ?
Sotomayor: I discovered t h a t t o have i n sections plywood covered with
canvas and those were painted with o i l s . It was a l a r g e cross,
about twenty-eight f e e t high. M
y inspiration came from some
13th century crosses I had seen i n I t a l y , where the sculptured
body of Christ was surrounded by painted scenes of h i s life:
The church i n Pleasanton already had a corpus, sculptured i n
p l a s t e r , and I used it i n t h e center of the cross, surrounding
it with scenes of the l i f e of St. Augustine--including h i s
mother, Santa Monica. I asked m
y wife t o pose f o r her.
DuCasse: How lovely! Santa Monica. You lucky lady. That's beautiful.
Well, I think a r t i s t s always have used the faces of the people
close t o them, especially mural painters.
Sotomayor: W e l l , what e l s e would you do?
someone t o stand in.
Either t h a t you have t o have
DuCasse:
'
W e l l , of course, the artist has t o be able t o imagine faces
also. You could imagine a c e r t a i n number, but then they
become a r e p e t i t i o n of type.
Sotomayor: It would be simpler t o do a familiar face.
a r e stand-ins f o r humanity. Each one of us
humanity !
After a l l , they
represents
DuCasse: 	 Very true. Have you done t h a t with these murals t h a t you're
doing f o r Grace Cathedral?
Sotomayor: 	 Well, especially i n one. There was a young man who was m
y
student, but I reduced h i s age, and painted him i n the family
of the p r i e s t V e r Mehr. [laughter]
DuCasse: I n one of those panels, which was about the present-day
you were saying something about a Chinese boy.
school,
Sotomayor: What I t r y t o do i s represent t h e population of San Francisco,
which is very r i c h i n v a r i e t y , so a t the school I have repre-
sentatives of a l l these r a c i a l groups. One boy, f o r instance,
is today probably twenty years old and he is more or less a
protgg6 of a f r i e n d of ours who gave m
e some photographs of him.
He asked m
e t h a t he should be there; i t was a very simple thing
t o do.
DuCasse: 	 Very good. So he could always go and see himself!
Sotomayor: 	 Oh yes, and he brought h i s whole family!
Caricatures--Pied Piper Room, Palace Hotel--and
P o l i t i c a l Cartooning
DuCasse: 	 Soto, there a r e many f a c e t s t o your t a l e n t . Among them I think
one of the most i n t e r e s t i n g were your caricatures t h a t you did
when you were a very young a r t i s t . By way of introduction, I
would l i k e t o read a paragraph from a very f i n e a r t i c l e t h a t
was w r i t t e n about you a s a c a r i c a t u r i s t : "A c a r i c a t u r i s t is
above a l l e l s e a sophisticate, has t o be. H i s c r a f t must be
chic and finished, h i s point of view t h a t of a man of the
world. I f he takes pot shots a t c e l e b r i t i e s , he must approach
them a s h i s peers. I f he makes a lunge a t a stuffed s h i r t ,
it must be done gracefully, i n t h e s p i r r t of fun. A good
c a r i c a t u r i s t is always laughing up h i s sleeve, and t h a t sleeve
must not be soiled by cynicism or b i t t e r n e s s or anger."
Now t h i s was a quotation from Joseph Danish, and I think
t h a t is a b e a u t i f u l way of expressing what a t r u e c a r i c a t u r i s t
should be.
Sotomayor: 	 Well, i n South America I used t o contribute--when I was very
young--to t h e publications, t h e magazines and t h e newspapers.
Then here I had an exhibition f i r s t a t the Courvoisier
Galleries, and they asked me t o do people who w e r e prominent
An appreciation of 55 

By Mildred Hamilton
tributes in art form.
Sotomayor was indulging in
trospection as he strolled through Much of his Bolivian heritage is !
.eSanFrancisco Art Cornmissio~'~ evident in the exhibition. 'The
,apricom Asunder Gallery (165
;rove St.) where the walls were
ined "with pieces of my life."
The commission selected him
.or this year's Award of Honor art
exhibition, which will continue in
the gallery through Oct. 20.
. -
Sotomayor to Sari Fran-
,-isco froin his native Bolivia at age
21. "MY father expected me to
study architecture at the Universi-
,ty of California," he said in his Still
slightly accented voice. However,
S~tomayor'S teen-age experiences
a Caricaturist for newspapers
and magazines in La Pa2 caused
him to decide O
n enrollment a
local art school.
His need way and
to learn 'Ookhim the Old
Palace Hotel where, for five days,
he was a kitchen helper,,"the most
menial of j
o
*
:
, Then 'his artist
background Was bcovered "and I
started to design menus." Soon he.
was the hotel artist, with his
caricatures and murals brightening
its public rooms.
The Old California mural he
painted in 1935 for the Happy
Valley lounge is still an attraction.
On its 25th anniversary, in 1960, he
cleaned it. Hls enormous murals for
San Francisco's most elaborate par-
ties, the Cotillions, the ~acheiors'
and Spinsters' balls, the Gaieties,
have covered the walls of the
Garden Court over the years.
brillhit colors are the most sym- ,
bolic of my boyhood memories," he
saidpointing to paintings of Indians
from the plateau area of that
land
<.,. '
One gallery Gialkisdevoted to a
series of oil on canvas' balloons,
bols of all desires and hopes. I like
to take that kind of subject and go
into a period of exploration and
exploitation to develop it between
my mind and the
.
~~~h of his work ol
the 1960s
has a surrealist element' as' distor-
tion struggled reality on his
easel. "but always with an under-
tone of satire: said the -artist
pausing before a toppled Mona Lisa
half-hiddenby twisted tubing. "Life
is such a mixture of -trying to
ailalyze the contradictions you
str@ch reality,to the absurd.''
- Sottimayor. 'one, of $he most
versatile artists in san Trancisco
history. has been exhibited interna-
tionally, and the current exhibition
has assembled from both museums
&d private collectors.There is only
a photograph of the grand scale
terra cot& "Fountain of the Pacific
Bash," a 36 by 46 foot relief map he
did for the 1939 Exposition on
Treasure Island "It was dismantled
but the parts are in storage and
there is talk of reassembling it," he
--:-I -
S"'U'.
There are also photographs of
his latest 'grand creation in terra
cotta, the 14Stationsof the Crosshe
~ h . artist,at on h~ oldWlifornla
-
designed in 1977 for an open air
chapel formed by a natural circleof
redwoods near San Gregorio. Sot*
mayor painted the oil mural altar-
pieke for St. Augustine's Church in
Pleasanton, did a n)osaic facadefor
a Methodist church Hillsdaleand
-meMother of the Poorwpainting
for a chapel in ~ ~ ~ i
"Lately I seem more drawn
religious art," he said. "Part of that
influence may be the fact that
people are looking more for reli-
gion today. And part of it may
involve where I go next." He folded
his hands in supplication - and
grinned. .
A bronze sculpture of a horse
occupies the center of his studio
today. "When I was in Florence
recently I saw a little horse of a
v
'
4
in 1935
~ ~ .
sot or nay or':^ art 

'Iused balloonsas symbols of all deslres and hopes'
Greekartist that me greatly.
When I see beautiful things I want
to create, but ugly things deaden
me."
A patron of the opera, he has
painted dozens of decorations for
.theelaborate pre-openingparties of
the Museum of Modern Art.."Grace
and I are going to 'Don Giovanni'
tonight." he said.
A long-time symphony fan, he
was almost adopted by members of
the orchestra in appreciation for
his huge caricature "Waiting for
the Maestro" in 1951. In 1959 he
won the $1,500 Arts Festival first
prize for his Civic Auditorium stage
backdrop for the "Pops" concerts
-a merry, summery look at The
atr-
His ballet design period ex-
tended over a decade and he is till
an ardent supporter. He painted
murals for the first Cotillion and
has been part of every one since
then. "1 am working on the designs
for this now.w
Sotomayer, who served on the :own brand of piquant humor. "But
Ax# Commission with appointments again I might be wrong."
by Mayors Eimer Robinson. John
Shelley and Joseph Alioto, has
made a long civic as well as a
personal contribution to a beautiful
San Francisco. Starting in 1971 he
and another former commission ,
member, artist Ruth Asawa, criti-
cized the still unfinished United
Nations Plaza fountain on Market
Street near F'ulton. In one vote
against it, he called it a "trough for
horses."
Today some designersare tied
to a big formula of what they call
modern, but art is not like machin-
ery," be said. 'The form can change
but the feeling must always be
there. Today too many things are
deprived of feeling. In the beautiful
city of San Francisco I don't know
how long that fountain will keep
the public interest."
He paused in an example of his
-E4 S.F. EXAMINER * Thura., Mar. 22; 1984
-
7ony Sotomayor's:
San Francisco palette
By carolinei~rewes
Examiner staff writer
NTHEHEARTOFthecity,haquietmewsonNobHill,
in a bullding he bought for $3,000some 40 years ago,
livesAntonioSotomayor,the vematile,whimsical,emi-
nentiy civilized artist who came here from Bolivia
when he was 21and beconiean important part ofthe
SanF'ranciscosceneWhich,indeed,he hasdelineated
insomany art forms-in murals,someof them lightheart-
ed backdropsfor fetessuch asthe debutanteCotillionand
partiesat the Museum of Modem Art; in sculpture,carica-
ture, oil painting, in ballet sets and costumes,illustrations
for hisown and other people's books, mosaics, religious
tributes
Tony is among the company of men and woman who
give The City its flavor; in tunl he gives the lie to the old
saying that a prophet is without honor in his own land, in
his case,a land adopted at firstsightin 1923.
The firstSotomayorcametdBolivia from Spainin 1560.
When this latest Sotomayor Uyne to San Francisco from
Bdivia in 1923, his father expected h i to study architec-
ture at UC. But Tony had other ideas Earlier in his life,
growing up in the little town of Chulumani, he was once
approached by some Indians who brought h i a broken
rock theythought looked likeSt. Anthony.Theyasked hlm
to completethe image,which he did.He was 12In La Paz
he studied art under the Belgian master Adolf L a m W
* - - - A - - I.
--_ .
a d by theageof 15hewascontributinglUustrationsto
BolivianmagazinesandnewspapersSo.arrivinginSan
Francisco,Tonydeterminedtoattendartechodl.Hewas
&ntually toteachatMillsCollegeandtheW o m b
_$Q~ml
of FineArts.Butasastudent,inordertoearnW
.*\gryaswellastoiearnEnglish,hewenttoworkscraping
'
&
e
s inthePalaceHotelMtchen.Thatlastedfivedam
:$yl thentheyoungnewcomerwasdesigningmenus
:-his waytobecorninntheofficialhotelartist. . . .
):
i: ~ e
h&hadmanyhonors. Exhibitednationallyand
.,?npnationally,sixyearsagoTonySotomayorwasselected
.
i
p
I
theyear's Awardof Honorartexhibitionby theSan
b$ncisca Art Commksion,whichhehadservedthrough
.$qee mayorsTheexhtbltionwasassembledfrom
*useurns andprivatecdlens;asheregardedthese
:'phes of mylife," therewasanopportunityforalook
..jx$kwar&, alittleintrospedon.
, :
'
a Y
e
s
,
TonySotomayoracknowledgesnow,inthegentle,
:bbispery,sibiitvoicethatstUl bearstheaccentof South
9&erica, hehasdonewellenoughhehasacbkveda
'h e r o u smeasureof famedoingwhathelovesinthedty
heloves“SariS
a
n
F
r
a
n
c
i
s
c
ohassupportedmeandmademe
famous;IameveninWho's WhoinEngland.. ."H
eoffers
thislastwithanimpish littled e ,hischaractePtstic
*pression of expectantdelight-or kitdelighted
.!!@cr?
Art ~s
everything,but itkalsonecesuytomakea
livlnn,andhehas beenablet
odothat. "Youhaveto
accokodate tothemnorniclile.Wehaw
,.alwayshadenough,notalwaysagreatdeal,butenoughw
.'Ponyisphilosophizingasheslowlymakesbisway theshort
8 distancefromhometoGraceCathedral,whereinOctober
hisseriesof muralswascompletedandthefinal ones
installedintheeasternbaysof thenave&lea
. Ittooktwoyearstopaintthesemurals;doctorshad ,
a'dvisedhimtocancelhiscontractwiththeCathedralthree .
yearsagowhenhewasdesperatelyfflwithcancer,andthey
..thoughthehad onlytwoyearstolive. 'Theyweretryingto
. protecthim,"hiswileGracesays,addingthatsheherself
lost35poundsduringthatt h eof hisgraveillness,when
. m ywassoweakhecouldbarelyw
a
l
k
.Onedayhloown
personalphysician cametocallandtoldTony,"Ifyouthink
.,ypuc
a
n
'
t takeonestep,taketwotwon
Well,perhapsTony's
.mindwasalreadymadeup.InanycaseheregaInedhia
healthandhewentaheadandfinishedthemuralsfor
+race Cathedral.
, ..InJanuaryhewasffl again,butheLsbetternowandin
thelastfewweeksheispaintingoncemore.Thenearly
completedoilportraitof a prettyblondwoman,
commissionedbyherhusband,sitsonaneaselby the
fireplaceintheSotomayors'upperflat,whoseentrancek
4
announcedbyscarletgeraniums"Now Iambeginningto
getmyenergyback,"Tony say&'Inordertopaint,you
e v etohavephysicalandmentalenergy."
:: HeandGracehaveadoptedacustomnewtothem;these
* 'afternoonstheysitdowntot
e
a
,
sometimeslacedwithrum,
L
and cookies.At teatimetodaybeforethewalktothe
Cathedral,theyaretalkingabouttheirlifetogether,
reminiscinga bit.
Whentheyboughttheseflatsforasongalltheeyean
ago,theydidextensiveremodeling. Unabletofindthe
appropriatemantelforthefireplace,Tonysimplypainted
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Sotomayor: 	 San Franciscans. A caricature by i t s e l f you do not appreciate 

unless you know t h e people who w i l l be i n the caricatures. 

Then it becomes a much more s h a l l I say enjoyable experience! 

After t h a t exhibition, which was very well received, a
few months l a t e r I was asked by the decorator of the Palace
Hotel i f I would make caricatures of prominent l o c a l people
o r internationally and nationally-known p o l i t i c a l figures o r
actors o r people i n the news. A t t h a t time Prohibition came
t o an end, and the l a r g e hotels began t o think i n terms of
opening bars. There was a very famous--and i t ' s still very
famous--room a t the Palace and it was called the Pied Piper,
and with a l a r g e painting by Maxfield Parrish. And the w a l l s
around they were naked, so they asked m
e t o do these carica-
tures.
When t h e thing was proposed t o the board of d i r e c t o r s of
the hotel, they rejected t h e whole idea. But curiously enough
during Christmas the management invited s o r t of "on the house"
guests i n San Francisco f o r a special annual Christmas
luncheon. So we thought, why not t r y out t h e caricatures on
the public i t s e l f ? So t h e board of d i r e c t o r s or the manager
knew nothing of the plan, and we j u s t hung a l l these caricatures
on the walls--I had already enough t o f i l l the room--and the
reception was much more than the board of d i r e c t o r s of t h e h o t e l
had expected.
Suddenly they began t o get telephone complaints from people,
not because t h e i r caricatures were there, but because they were
-
not considered important enough t o have t h e i r caricatures put
there! And very curiously t h e r e was a man, a very prominent
and very wealthy man by the name of Mark Requa, and h e came t o
complain t o t h e manager. They called m e and he t o l d me, "Do
you know m
y caricature should be there? Do you know who I am?
I am the man who actually put Herbert Hoover in the presidency."
And not only t h a t , but days a f t e r the management had cards
on t h e t a b l e i n v i t i n g people t o see the caricatures. And then
t h i s is a very i n t e r e s t i n g thing. I n 1940 a t t h e World's F a i r
there was a section, you know--in the a r t building they had
organized something t h a t i t was called the "Meet t h e A r t i s t . "
[Art i n Action]
DuCasse: 	 Yes, I remember t h a t , "Meet t h e A r t i s t . "
Sotomayor: 	 It was a very novel i d e a l , t o show actually a l l these d i f f e r e n t
branches of a r t being practiced o r being represented by sculptors,
painters, ceramicists, and so on. So I was asked by Timothy
Pflueger, who was then i n charge. He said, 'Why don't you do
that?" To go and make caricatures.
Sotomayor: 	 A t the beginning I was not very sold on the idea because I 

hated t o have somebody j u s t looking a t what I was doing. But 

Diego Rivera was doing these large murals i n back, and s o I 

s t a r t e d t o do. But I thought t o not make t h e whole process 

take very long, so i n about ten o r twelve minutes I would 

produce a caricature. I thought t h a t the people t h a t I would 

caricature would not be everybody because they would t r y t o 

pay o r buy them. So I said I would do only of the other 

a r t i s t s , so there was a parade of t h e a r t i s t s . 

I was the only a r t i s t t h a t immediately a f t e r he finished
h i s work he would get applause from the public. And once I had
the caricature, I would hang i t i n the frame. There was a
radio man who came. And even Diego was a l i t t l e b i t annoyed
about I was g e t t i n g more applause than he did!
DuCasse: 	 You were s t e a l i n g h i s thunder!
Sotomayor: 	 Those caricatures were l a t e r exhibited a t the San Francisco
Museum of Modem A r t . It was q u i t e an experience. And I
always enjoyed especially t o amuse people and I amused myself.
I did i t one night when we were invited t o a party, and
a f t e r awhile t h e party began t o sag, and so somebody brought
i n a pad of paper and asked me t o make caricatures. And I did.
There was one person, and she was the wife of a very prominent
a r t i s t , and she was very conscious of a l a r g e nose. She was
a very a t t r a c t i v e woman, very a l i v e , but she was apparently
very conscious of t h i s . So I made the caricature. When she
saw i t , it had no nose, but the expression was hers. Everybody
laughed, and she was relieved.
Generally the formula i s t o exaggerate some problem, and
i t was already, God made it!
DuCasse: 	 So you j u s t eliminated i t !
I was interested i n some of the p o l i t i c a l cartoons that
you had done during t h a t period before World War I1 broke
out.
Sotomayor: 	 Oh, it was before, when H i t l e r was beginning t o mesmerize the
Germans.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, and you did those amazing cartoons foreshadowing what was
going t o happen before it happened.
Sotomayor: 	 But a t t h e same time you could f e e l it, the catastrophe t h a t
we were facing.
DuCasse: Don't you think t h a t the t r u e cartoonist has t h a t sense?
Sotomayor: Yes,because you have the sensitiveness t o what is going on.
A good p o l i t i c a l c a r i c a t u r i s t has t o have t h i s sense of a
s o r t of premonition of things t o happen.
DuCasse: You a l s o did the covers f o r This World for the San Francisco
Chronicle back i n the t h i r t i e s and f o r t i e s .
Sotomayor: For many years, f o r many, many covers.
And then I remember I did drawings f o r a magazine called
t h e San Franciscan. Because a f t e r the success of the -
New
Yorker, there were a number of c i t i e s t h a t began t o t r y t o have
t h e i r own magazines. I went t o the o f f i c e of Joseph Dyer, the
e d i t o r and publisher of the San Franciscan. He looked a t my
drawings, and told me t h a t he needed an i l l u s t r a t i o n f o r a
t h e a t r i c a l a r t i c l e , but t h a t he had already suggested the idea
t o another a r t i s t . However, he said t h a t i f he and the s t a f f
liked mine b e t t e r , they would use it--and they did. So from
then on, I began t o do drawings f o r the magazine.
Among the things I did was a s e r i e s of cartoons on t h e
clubs of San Francisco by one who had never been a member.
did t h i s s e r i e s i n the l a t e twenties, and by 1935, I w a s a
member of one of them!
I
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist : Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California 

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 

Renaissance of Religious Art and Architecture 

in the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968 

Paul Ryan 

BEAUX ART PRINCIPLES AND CHURCH ARCHITECTURE 

An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse and Suzanne B. Riess 

in 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE O
F CONTENTS -- Paul Ryan
INTERVIEW HISTORY
BEAUX-ARTS EDUCATION AND PRACTICE
Grace Cathedral, 1933-1935
Other Church Work: Simplification, with Exceptions
The Architect i n Control
The Client: Diocese and Parish
A r t i s t s and Craftsmen, and "The Quarter-Inch Rule"
T
H
E CATHOLIC A
R
T F
O
R
U
M
; TRANSITIONS I N THE CHURCH
ST. PNRY 'S CATHEDRAL, S
A
N FRANCISCO
The Archbishop, the Architecture, and the Architects
Significant Decisions on the Interior of t h e Cathedral
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Paul Ryan, a distinguished gentleman and a r c h i t e c t , posseses the r i c h
heritage of Spanish California i n h i s family background. Added t o t h i s , h i s
European training i n the &ole des Beaux-Arts i n P a r i s i n the School of
Architecture has given him the authority t o design and build f o r our
California-Western environment with a s p e c i a l f l a i r and elegance, whether
i t be a private dwelling o r public building. In h i s designs f o r churches,
t h i s t r a i n i n g and heritage have been of the greatest influence and appropri-
ateness f o r the handsomest r e s u l t s . .
I have known Paul since our mutual involvement and membership i n the
Catholic A r t Forum, which began i n 1953. I have followed h i s career with
admiration. He brought t o i t a deep understanding of Church teachings i n
regard t o building f o r i t s houses of worship i n addition t o the great
knowledge he acquired i n h i s study of architecture. The credo of the
Beaux-Arts i n Architecture was the underlying philosophy of the important
r e l a t i o n of balance and proportion i n simplicity and directness of means.
This has been an outstanding quality i n h i s work, especially churches
such a s St. J a r l a t h ' s i n Oakland and the Spanish Carmelite Convent Chapel
i n San Francisco. He was able i n these two churches t o mesh h i s t o r i c a l
s t y l e s with modem materials i n a harmoniously contemporary manner t h a t
is gratifying indeed.
Suzanne Riess and I m e t Paul Ryan f o r t h i s interview i n the Rare Book
Room of the Gleeson Library a t University of San Francisco, where the
Catholic A r t Forum had originated some t h i r t y years ago. It was a happy
reunion f o r Paul and myself, whose paths had diverged a f t e r the ending of
the A r t Forum i n t h e l a t e s i x t i e s . It was a l s o a pleasure t o have him
recount t o u s i n a most l i v e l y manner the history of h i s education i n
architecture, and the philosophy t h a t has evolved during the many years
of h i s most successful practice i n the Bay Area. It w a s born out vividly
i n t h e pictured examples he showed us a s well a s those with which we a r e
familiar from our own experience.
.
I had t h e added pleasure of a second v i s i t with Paul when he, accom-
panied by h i s charming wife, came t o m
y home i n Piedmont t o bring an
album of h i s architecture and pictures of himself f o r us t o choose from
f o r our interview completion. He had never seen the studio, m
y f a t h e r ' s
studio, before. A s i t is an example of the Berkeley Craftsman Style, he
was interested t o see it, and I was pleased a t h i s p r a i s e of it i n its
present form.
Paul Ryan i s s t i l l creating beautiful and appropriate buildings,
a l b e i t not under the pressure of a full-time schedule any longer. He has
the l e i s u r e t o enjoy the f r u i t s of h i s labors and look back upon a b r i l l i a n t
career with j u s t i f i a b l e satisfaction.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
'September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
iii
B
I
O
G
R
A
P
H
I
C
A
L L
N
F
O
R
M
A
T
L
O
N
(Please print or write clearly)
Your f u l l name
Date of birth 6-
/I- 0 7 Place of birth
Father's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Mother's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Where did you grow up ?
Present cornunity
#/ ff /
'
Special interests activities
B
E
A
U
X A
R
T PRINCIPLES AND CHURCH ARCHITECTURE
[Interview date: December 1, 19831
Beaux-Arts Education and Practice
Grace Cathedral, 1933-1935
DuCasse: Paul, what we want t o hear from you is about your participation i n
t h e Catholic A r t Forum and also, of course, very specially, what
you did with church architecture i n the Bay Area. So wherever you
want t o begin.
Ryan: Well, i f you l i k e ,
with the period of
w e ' l l s t a r t with the forum, o r possibly s t a r t
t h e times i n which we lived a t t h a t t i m e .
DuCasse: Very good.
Ryan: I was graduated from the kcole des Beaux-Arts i n 1933, and came
back t o Sari Francisco, and I worked f o r two years f o r Lewis Hobart,
who was the a r c h i t e c t of Grace Cathedral. During those two years
I was with him, the two bays e a s t of the transept were b u i l t . The
cathedral originally had stopped a t the transept. So we b u i l t t h e
two bays, the north tower, the so-called Coulson Tower, and the
l i t t l e diocesen house on the corner of Sacramento and Taylor.
In e f f e c t , looking back on it now,
Episcopal and Catholic cathedrals.
I have worked f o r both the
Riess: W
h
y had they picked up and gotten s t a r t e d again on the cathedral
i n 1933?
Ryan: I think t h i s s t a r t e d about
money.
'34, actually. It was a question of
Ryan : Well, probably the Crocker family came up with some money a t t h a t
time .
Riess: I know labor was cheap during the Depression,
spurred building.
and so t h a t often
Ryan: Yes, oh yes. Well, t h a t had a great deal t o do with it. I f the
money was available, f o r instance, i t would be a sensible thing t o
do. For instance, on t h a t score, t h e Bohemian Club t o r e down a
perfectly good building i n 1933 and b u i l t the present building
during the Depression, thereby putting a great deal of money i n t o
c i r c u l a t i o n , and they got a very f i n e building rather cheaply.
That may very well have happened i n connection with Grace Cathedral,
but they only put on the two bay.
The Coulson Tower, the north tower, was given by Dr. Nathaniel
Coulson. He had, I believe, some form of an annuity, and he was
e i t h e r a bachelor o r a widower, so he turned over a l l t h a t money,
a s long a s he lived, t o t h e cathedral, providing t h a t they'd build
a tower--and he wanted r e a l b e l l s , no electronics i n t h e carillon.
So t h a t was from the Coulson money, but the r e s t of i t I think was
Crocker.
But anyhow, I graduated a t a time when there were great changes
in architecture, and i t hadn't r e a l l y begun t o a f f e c t religious
architecture too much a s y e t , but the beginnings were already there,
the changes t h a t were taking place. M
y education was very, very
much along c l a s s i c a l l i n e s . By training and even by inclination,
I was e s s e n t i a l l y a conservative and a c l a s s i c i s t .
R i e s s : Where had you done your work i n t h i s country?
Ryan : I didn't. I went s t r a i g h t out of high school t o Paris.
R i e s s : Really?
Ryan : Yes. M
y f a t h e r thought every American boy should go t o an American
college, and m
y f a t h e r wanted m
e t o go t o MIT, then do postgraduate
work i n France. And Arthur Brown, because he thought the two
systems were counterproductive, persuaded m
y parents and he
strongly urged t h a t I go d i r e c t l y t o the Beaux-Arts, which I did.
I remained t h e r e seven years, from age nineteen t o twenty-six, the
most formative years of my l i f e .
Riess: Well, working backwards, where did you go t o high school?
Ryan : I went t o Sacred Heart High School here i n San Francisco. Normally
I probably would have been a J e s u i t boy; m
y two brothers went t o
St. Ignatius, but I went t o Sacred Heart because i t was t h e only
Ryan : Catholic high school i n San Francisco that taught mechanical
drawing, so-called. [laughing] I had wanted t o be an architect;
my parents said, "Well, look, you ought t o go t o a place where you
can get some t r a i n i n g i n mechanical drawing." It r e a l l y didn't
do that much good, frankly.
R i e s s : So you had a very c l a s s i c a l training,
You didn't go back t o Arthur Brown?
and came r i g h t back t o Hobart.
Ryan : No, I didn't. Bear inmind, 1933 was the lowest point of the
Depression, and you couldn't get a job, particularly i n an archi-
t e c t ' s o f f i c e , f o r love, money, o r family influence. I had
letters t o d i f f e r e n t people. One was a l e t t e r t o George Kelham.
George Kelham is the man who had b u i l t t h e Russ Building, t h e
Standard O i l Building, and S h e l l Building; he was one of the top
a r c h i t e c t s i n the c i t y .
And so I presented my l e t t e r , and h i s secretary took i t i n t o
him, and I heard a booming voice coming out of the d r a f t i n g room
saying, "Tell Mr. Ryan t o come in.'' So I walked i n t h i s vast
drafting room, which was on the top f l o o r of the old Cal Commercial
Building a t 315 Montgomery, and i n t h i s ' v a s t drafting room there
were three men: Kelham, h i s chief man, and one other.
He said, "Mr.Ryan, I want you t o see the only project we have
i n t h i s o f f i c e at the moment," and it was the remodeling of a l i t t l e
Victorian house on Webster S t r e e t near Pacific. [laughing] So
obviously there w a s no job t o be had.
Riess: Then how did Hobart find room f o r you?
Ryan: Well, a t t h a t time the c i t y of San Francisco, with WPA help, s t a r t e d
building l o t s of schools, and they assigned each school t o maybe
two o r three architects. A 1 Cleary-who was a friend of m
y f a t h e r ' s ;
t h a t ' s how I got the job, by the way--who was chief administrative
o f f i c e r of t h e c i t y [1932-19411, told me, "We have created t h i s job
arrangement, s o we're keeping some very f i n e gentlemen out of the
breadline." So the a r c h i t e c t s , they broke i t up among them, they
spread i t very t h i n , s o everybody had a l i t t l e work t o do, and
t h a t ' s how I got i n t o Hobart's office. And I stayed there f o r two
years, and then I s t a r t e d my own office.
DuCasse: That was brave, a t t h a t time.
Ryan: M
y generation, by the way, l o t s of architects--a l o t of them became
famous l a t e r on--started a t a very young age, when normally they
wouldn't have s t a r t e d t h e i r own offices, because the jobs ran thin.
I ' m thinking of Hertzka and Knowles, f o r instance, who a r e very
Ryan : 	 successful a r c h i t e c t s here, and they s t a r t e d around the same time
a s I , and i f you were going t o starve, you might a s well starve i n
your own o f f i c e , and not be absorbed i n another a r c h i t e c t ' s office.
I s t a r t e d rather young--I think I was twenty-eight when I
s t a r t e d m
y own office--and I was very fortunate i n t h a t I did get
some breaks from the archdiocese of San Francisco. It's a question
of luck, r e a l l y , how things come i n t o play. M
y maternal grand-
parents lived diagonally across from St. Mary's Cathedral, a t the
corner of Van Ness Avenue a t O'Farrell, and they were good friends
of Monsignor Ramm, who was the pastor of the cathedral church. He
liked m
y grandparents, and so he gave me a break and gave me a
l e t t e r of introduction t o a young p r i e s t over i n Novato. Well,
t h a t was my f i r s t job i n the archdiocese. And it grew from that.
Incidentally, i t a l s o helped q u i t e a b i t t h a t the Vicar
General a t t h a t time was Monsignor Ryan, who a l s o knew m
y family,
and I guess with the name of Ryan, f o r some reason or other he liked
me. [laughter] So I had some very nice breaks.
Riess: 	 When was the f i r s t p a r t of the cathedral b u i l t ?
Ryan : 	 The f i r s t p a r t must have been b u i l t i n probably 1924 o r '25, i n
there somewhere. [work began i n 19281 There was only a h i a t u s of
s i x o r seven years.
Actually Hobart had designed the cathedral. Contrary t o the
Junior League's book, which has somebody e l s e involved i n it, t h a t
was not so. I think somebody made an e r r o r i n there somewhere
along the l i n e . There had been an old crypt. Maybe you may even
7
remember the old crypt, one-story high, made out of white granite,
on t h e California S t r e e t side. [speaking t o DuCasse]
DuCasse: 	 I think I remember, yes.
Ryan : 	 Yes. Well, he may have been involved i n t h a t , but t h i s man, who-
ever he was, was -
not involved i n t h e design of the present Grace
Cathedral, which is s t r i c t l y Hobart, with Ralph Adams C r a m as the
consulting architect. So, i n e f f e c t , he carried on h i s own design.
Then, l a t e r on, a f t e r h i s death, when the cathedral was
f i n a l l y completed, it was carried on by Weihe, Frick, and Kruse,
who were r e a l l y successors t o Arthur Brown and John Bakewell,
and they carried out Hobart's design very, very carefully, with
very few changes. The changes were mostly i n t h a t Hobart had a
large porch coming out i n f r o n t , somewhat typical of the s o r t of
thing you see a t Autun Cathedral i n Burgundy, with a b i g porch
out i n front.
R i e s s : 	 You were very much i n sympathy with everything t h a t he was doing?
Ryan : 	 Very much so, very, very much so. You see, t h a t w a s m
y training.
R i e s s : 	 You didn't want t o do any l i t t l e innovative touches while you 

were there? 

Ryan : 	 Not r e a l l y , not really. It wasn't u n t i l r e a l l y I got out on m
y
own t h a t I realized t h a t i n c e r t a i n f a c t o r s t h a t t i m e s were
changing. Even the Beaux-Arts was changing i n m
y t i m e .
During the years I was a t the Beaux-Arts, we had what we used
t o c a l l mostly plan problems given t o us. The programs a r e
written i n such a way t h a t t h e elevations and sections didn't
count very much. The beauty of t h e plan i t s e l f was -
the important
thing. And the reason f o r t h a t was t h a t within t h e Beaux-Arts
i t s e l f there was conflict. There were those who wanted t o take
on more contemporary ideas, and those who wanted t o keep on the
old t r a d i t i o n a l idea of the grandeur and magnificent planning
and so forth. So the problems given t o us were a l l plan, very
seldom any elevations. The t r a i n i n g r e a l l y was t o c r e a t e a sense
of magnificence and of grandeur; do everything superbly, you know,
and never think .of anything a s small or t i g h t .
R i e s s : 	 Well, it was certainly hard t o t r a n s l a t e t h a t i n t o Depression-era
architecture.
Ryan : 	 You bet your l i f e it was. Also d i f f i c u l t , s t a r t i n g f o r myself,
was facing t h e r e a l i t i e s of money; t o do things i n t h e grand
manner does require more money than most people could afford.
So it was a question of adapting myself t o these changes, but I
don't think I ever r e a l l y did t o t a l l y adapt. [laughing]
Other Church Work: Simplification, with Exceptions
Ryan : 	 As you may remember, most of t h e work I did i n those e a r l y days
was by simplification; not a question of compromising ornaments,
but t o a great extent eliminating ornaments e n t i r e l y almost, and
designing almost by proportion, keeping rather elegant, handsome,
and understated proportions, and making the building r a t h e r simple
so you could afford t o build it.
One of t h e f i r s t churches I ever b u i l t was St. B a s i l ' s i n
Vallejo, which is -
very simple. It vaguely suggests a Spanish
California f e e l i n g t o it, but i t ' s very simplified, and t h a t has
been p r e t t y c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of most of m
y work, with very few
exceptions; possibly across the street here, C r i s t o Rey.
DuCasse:
Ryan :
Riess :
Ryan :
Riess :
Ryan :
DuCasse:
Ryan :
I was going t o say, t h a t ' s one where you were allowed t o put a l l
t h a t Baroque flower in.
Yes, t h a t ' s the only time I ever did that.
And then I occasionally did some period pieces. I did St.
J a r l a t h ' s Church i n Oakland, which i s a rather restrained form
of Tudor-Gothic--you could c a l l i t that. There's a very handsome
school there, and I wanted t o have a church t h a t would s o r t of
harmonize with it. So I used a l i t t l e b i t of Hobart's idea i n
Grace Cathedral which i s done i n concrete with a l l the form marks
showing, you know, on the inside, sandblasted, but form marks
which i n e f f e c t gave somewhat t h e scale of stone. There were no
attempts t o i m i t a t e stone, but by deliberately making the form
marks q u i t e v i s i b l e you create a sense of scale i n that.
Would the Beaux-Arts have approved of t h a t , o r was t h a t a
California solution?
NO, I think t h a t they were changing a t t h a t time too.
When you simplify, you don't modernize, you simply s t r i p away.
You r e l y e n t i r e l y on proportion, the c e r t a i n a b i l i t y of proportion.
I did the Carmelite Monastery up i n the Napa Valley, not f a r from
St. Helena, a t Oakville. There the building has absolutely no
ornament i n i t a t a l l , but i t does have very elegant proportions
and i t ' s a handsome building.
I n the case of Cristo Rey, which is the building across the
s t r e e t here, on Parker Avenue, the Carmelite nuns were willed
$1.5 million f o r the purpose of building a monastery. (Mind you,
t h i s was i n 1953 or '54.1 So I was called i n .
F i r s t of a l l , I ' m half Spanish, so I f i t i n t o the Carmelites,
the Mexican nuns over here; I f i t i n very well because I could .
chat i n Spanish, and I was more o r l e s s a n a t u r a l f o r this. And
they told me they wanted something that would be reminiscent of
t h e monasteries t h a t they'd occupied i n Mexico o r some of the ones
they knew i n Spain. So I took off and s t a r t e d out and had the
time of my l i f e designing f o r them a building t h a t is, oh, rather
sixteenth, seventeenth century, very Baroque.
But i t f i t s those s i s t e r s , those nuns; t h a t ' s t h e i r milieu.
It f i t s those nuns perfectly.
Ryan : 	 There again, the proportion is very handsome proportion, but I 

used a wealth of ornament i n t h i s one. W
e have stone columns 

i n the chapel and we have carved ones very reminiscent of the 

ones i n the s a c r i s t y i n Seville, somewhat t h a t same feeling. 

And i t has a magnificent c l o i s t e r on the inside. 

But I c a n ' t t e l l you what type of architecture i t is. It's
an architecture t h a t is both Spanish and French with a good
strong dash of the Beaux-Arts i n it, plus the f a c t t h a t i t was
b u i l t i n the mid-twentieth century. A l l of these things had t o
combine i n t o making t h i s building. And, a s I say, I had the
time of m
y l i f e doing it.
I made f u l l s i z e drawings of every inch of t h a t building.
It was something I couldn't turn over t o a draftsman because no
one was trained t o do t h a t s o r t of thing anymore, you know.
Besides, I loved doing it. I used reams of paper. I was f u l l -
s i z i n g a l l these things, with a 6-B pencil, going down here,
d e t a i l i n g every quarter-inch of t h a t building. I drew the
p r o f i l e s of a l l t h e moldings on long sheets of tracing paper
t h a t I could r o l l i n t o a metal c i r c u l a r container a t the lower
edge of m
y d r a f t i n g t a b l e s o I could show on one long sheet the
p r o f i l e s from t h e uppermost cornice t o the very base.
The Architect i n Control
Riess: 	 When you l e f t something simplified, then, did t h a t mean there
was the danger of another hand coming along and applying ornament--
when there was money--that was inappropriate?
Ryan: 	 No, I don't think so. I think usually i n designing a building,
I've had i t have a c e r t a i n elegance through its own proportion
t h a t doesn't a c t u a l l y . c a l 1 f o r ornament. I f i t ' s properly
handled, you don't have t o have the ornament i n it.
Riess: 	 Somehow we ought t o be able t o bring t h i s question around, Kai,
t o why i n f a c t you needed the Catholic A r t Forum i n 1950. What
kind of inappropriate and mediocre a r t was being placed i n
beautiful, simple, handsomely designed churches?
DuCasse: 	 Well, I think probably i n Paul's churches and perhaps Mario
Ciampi's and several a r c h i t e c t s who I know a r e careful about
what goes in t h e i r churches, then maybe t h a t wouldn't have
happened. But there were many l i t t l e small churches and older
churches which were f i l l e d with very mediocre p l a s t e r c a s t s
s t r a i g h t from a catalogue.
Ryan : 	 Right.
DuCasse: 	 Don't you think t h a t was t h e reason f o r t h e A r t Forum?
Ryan : 	 Yes. Well, usually I t r y t o design a s much a s possible myself.
DuCasse: 	 That's it, you see, and t h a t made good a r c h i t e c t s t r y t o do t h a t ,
and i f they can r e a l l y control t h e i r building, then t h a t is fine.
Ryan: 	 Yes. Well, basically I design my own a l t a r s , I design my own
tabernacles. Rather than going out and buying one out of a
catalogue, I design the tabernacles myself, always, and the
a l t a r s , and t h e candlesticks, whenever I could, and t h a t s o r t
of thing.
Riess: 	 Do you think t h a t ' s unusual, t h a t you have t h a t kind of control?
Ryan : 	 I don't think so, I don't think so. I don't know. From m
y
own experience, I was always very much i n control of m
y own
projects. I was t e r r i b l y lucky t h a t way, actually, really,
having c l i e n t s who trusted me, which i s a tremendous advantage,
r e a l l y , i n t h a t I could p r e t t y well control the project.
DuCasse: 	 I think it was more the older churches which were not r e a l l y
always very well designed and t h a t were f i l l e d with inconsequen-
t i a l kinds of a r t . I think t h a t ' s where we were trying t o
educate the clergy because, I mean, even you know, the clergy
were very d i f f i c u l t t o work with.
Ryan : 	 Extremely d i f f i c u l t .
DuCasse: 	 To convince t h e clergy t h a t t h e a r c h i t e c t knew h i s business,
t h a t ' s what was hard.
Ryan : 	 Extremely d i f f i c u l t . One of the great difficulties--I suppose
a r c h i t e c t s have had t h i s problem since the dawn of history--is
-	 trying t o mold the c l i e n t i n t o understanding what is good and
what i s not good. Too many c l i e n t s , and not only p r i e s t s , say,
11
I want t h i s , t h a t , and the other."
"Fine, I'll give you exactly what you want," you say, but
you bring it around t o a way t h a t ' s t o t a l l y acceptable t o you,
and eventually he agrees with your plan.
They t e l l the story t h a t Mansard had these same problems
too; the second, younger Mansard, Jules Hardouin Mansard.
Louis XIV had a great love of architecture and he a l s o liked
t o show h i s knowledge, so Mansard almost invariably would leave
a l i t t l e e r r o r i n h i s plans s o that the king could pick it up.
[laughter] So even i n those days they had problems with t h e i r
c l i e n t s .
The Client: Diocese and Parish
Riess: 	 Is the c l i e n t always the diocese? O r i s the c l i e n t sometimes the
congregation?
Ryan : 	 I n the Catholic Church i t ' s always the diocese. It's always the
diocese, and the diocese i n my time--I guess i t s t i l l does--had
what they called an approved list of a r c h i t e c t s , and a p r i e s t
might choose any a r c h i t e c t he l i k e s from t h a t approved list.
They were usually a r c h i t e c t s who had worked f o r the Church before
and whom they f e l t confident would do a good job.
But i t was through the archdiocese. Your preliminary plans
were approved by the archdiocese, and before you brought your
working drawings, the working drawings again had t o be taken t o
the building committee and go through a l l t h a t f o r t h e i r
approval--the one exception being St. Mary's Cathedral. W
e
never once showed i t t o the building committee. But anyhow,
t h a t 's another story.
Riess: 	 T h a t i s a s t o r y , a n d I t h i n k t h a t ' s going t o b e h a l f o f t h i s
interview. But I s t i l l want t o s e t the scene more f o r a l l of
t h i s . You did the church i n Novato i n 1938 o r so?
Ryan : 	 About 1938. It was a parish house actually, a l i t t l e rectory
f o r the Church of Our Lady of Loretto, I think i t ' s called.
From there I went on. I did a parish house up i n Calistoga.
I learned from t h a t one, by the way, never t o go back and
look a t your jobs years l a t e r . This parish house went up next
t o a charming l i t t l e old stone church, you know, one of the
native stones of Napa County. So I wanted t o have something
there t o have s o r t of the f e e l i n g of the stone and of Napa County.
They couldn't afford stone on t h e bottom, but I did stucco; no
attempt of looking li.ke stone, but the lower p a r t was stucco,
the upper p a r t was redwood, s o r t of t o suggest the wineries and
so f o r t h u? there. And i t ' s very carefully chosen redwood; a l l
heart redwood, you know, and i t ' s j u s t beautifully done.
Years l a t e r I went back. I was driving up i n there, so I
thought, "Hey, I think I ' l l go take a look a t m
y l i t t l e parish
house," and t o m
y horror the stucco had been painted s o r t of a
pistache green and the redwood had been painted pink. A t e r r i b l e
desecration, you know! [laughing] Oh, Lord.
DuCasse: 	 Well, t h a t ' s happened t o Ruth Cravath, you know. Some of her
things have been painted; one of h e r statues of hand-carved stone.
Ryan : A s t a t u e t h a t I gave, by the way, t o t h a t one, the L i t t l e Flower
a t Vallejo, I commissioned Ruth t o design t h a t s t a t u e and i t
stood i n the l i t t l e courtyard a s you enter the church there,
and i t was a lovely stone statue, j u s t a beautiful quality t o
it, and somebody painted it.
DuCasse: An icky tan.
Ryan : Terrible.
Riess : So those decisions, then, a r e parish decisions?
Ryan : Oh, those a r e parish decisions.
DuCasse: Oh, absolutely, and you never can keep your finger on i t long
enough t o get away from that.
Riess: Have you been doing exclusivly church architecture?
Ryan : No. I s t a r t e d practicing i n 1936, s o t h a t ' s coming up forty-
eight years t h i s next summer, and I did several parish houses,
and I did the church and school and convent center a t St. Basil's,
and the rectory up there. Then t h e war came along.
You asked i f I did exclusively churches. No, my practice
r i g h t across the board throughout these years has been 60 percent
r e l i g i o u s work: schools, convents, r e c t o r i e s , l i b r a r i e s , e t
cetera. The other 40 percent has been mostly i n d u s t r i a l and
commercial. Very r a r e l y did I do residences. I doubt t h a t I
b u i l t more than twenty-four residences throughout my e n t i r e l i f e ,
excluding rectories.
The residences I did build were r a t h e r fabulous, p r e t t y
fabulous residences, a l l of them; I was very fortunate i n having
very r i c h c l i e n t s who didn't care what they spent. And residences,
I enjoy doing them, I love doing them, but the thing is they a r e
t e r r i b l y time-consuming, and actually t h e r e ' s not much money i n
them because they consume so much time and the f e e s a r e r e l a t i v e l y
smaller.than they a r e withTour l a r g e r works, regardless of how
expensive the house is. But you can't very w e l l design a factory
f o r a man and say, "No, I won' t do your house. " [laughter] But
anyhow, I did love designing houses. To answer your question of
a b i t ago, 60 percent religious, 40 percent industrial.
And going back t o the church; the w a r came along, and I ' d
j u s t finished doing the Western Pipe and Steel along Bayshore
Highway. It's s t i l l standing down there. It's a great,
corrugated iron building r i g h t along the highway. I t r i e d t o
put a l i t t l e architecture i n t o t h a t , you know.
Ryan : But then I did go o f f , I ended up i n India, where I spent a year
and a half. Then I came home, and when an a r c h i t e c t closes h i s
office, i t ' s closed; there's no continuity a t a l l . But when I
came back I was commissioned i n 1946 t o design Riordan High
School, which was an enormous undertaking. It cost $3.5 million
back i n t h e l a t e f o r t i e s , and t h a t was an enormous amount of
money.
M
y commission from Bishop O'Dowd, who was head of the
department of education, was, "Design me the f i n e s t Catholic
high school i n America," a r a t h e r nice order, I thought. And
O'Dowd and I traveled throughout most of the eastern p a r t of
t h e United States and Midwest v i s i t i n g schools--public, private,
and religious--picking out t h e good p a r t s of what we wanted
and so forth. So it ended up with Riordan High School. It's
a fabulous-way t o open your office, on an enormous commission.
Bishop O'Dowd did not l i v e t o see it. He was k i l l e d i n a
train-automobile accident, even before t h e building was completed.
H e had o f f i c i a t e d a t Clare's and my marriage, which was a great
exception. He was a wonderful man. I n those days, Archbishop
Mitty would not allow bishops t o perform marriages; he thought
t h a t i t put too much of a demand on the hierarchy. But he made
an exception since w e were such good friends. [laughter]
Riess: I thought maybe because you designed t h e church you were married
i n , o r some reason l i k e that.
Ryan : No. I was married i n Old St,.
t i e there.
Mary's Church; there was a family
DuCasse: That was a dear old church.
Ryan : I liked i t very much.
anyhow.
I liked i t b e t t e r then than now. But
A r t i s t s and Craftsmen, and "The Quarter-Inch Rule"
R i e s s : Did you continue designing a l l the furnishings of
Would you, f o r instance, have done the stations?
these churches?
Ryan : Many times I commissioned them,
design t o some extent.
and then I could control the
Riess: Who were you using i n the f o r t i e s , l e t ' s say?
Ryan : 	 L e t ' s see. In t h e f o r t i e s I commissioned wood carvings
frequently from Sam Berger, and Lyn Genung. Sam Berger did
the wood carvings f o r me f o r St. Lucy's Church i n Campbell,
and he a l s o did them f o r m
e i n St. Basil's i n Vallejo. There
was no question of buying stations. NO, they'd be d e f i n i t e l y
commissioned. Also, nearly a l l the i n t e r i o r furnishings and
s t a t u e s would be commissioned. Some of those were bought,
but mostly when I couldn't have a carver of my own. You'd get
some wood carvings from Europe, of f a i r l y good quality, a s a
matter of f a c t . But you avoided p l a s t e r l i k e the plague.
Riess: 	 How about windows?
Ryan : 	 Windows? Yes. I used a man here i n San Francisco named C a r l
Huneke, who did windows. And, there again, you're working
d i r e c t l y with an a r t i s t . You give him a theme and you could
t e l l him p r e t t y much the s o r t of thing you wanted. Then he'd
bring these down t o my office, and I'd s i t way back here and
look at i t way on the opposite end there and say, "I'd l i k e
t h i s a l i t t l e changed here. I have a feeling t h a t we l o s t some-
thing i n that," but leave him a t l i b e r t y t o go ahead and do what
he wanted. But he'd react t o m
y reaction t o h i s original
sketches.
The same thing was t r u e of e l e c t r i c fixtures. I can s t i l l
remember, when we were doing St. J a r l a t h ' s , I have some great
torchsres i n wrought iron running down the nave of the church,
and I had sketched those i n on the working drawing. These were
being done by a firm by the name of Phoenix Day, and the designer
there was Roller, who was t h e brother of the a r c h i t e c t Albert F.
Roller. He a l s o did these famous chandeliers i n the Palm
Court of t h e Palace Hotel; they'd gone back t h a t f a r .
But anyhow, he came over gnd he brought over a full-size
drawing of what I had sketched. By golly, these things were
eight f e e t t a l l , and standing i n m
y o f f i c e they looked absolutely
gigantic. And I think f o r the f i r s t time i n m
y l i f e I r e a l l y
began t o doubt myself, you know. I've always had an absolute
theory t h a t you never, never under any circumstances change what
you've done a t quarter-inch. I f it looks good a t quarter-inch,
i t 's going t o be absolutely r i g h t .
But I looked a t t h a t , I said, ''My God, they a r e absolutely
enormous. We're going t o have t o make a mockup of t h i s and put
i t i n the church, and w e ' l l see."
They made the mockup and I went over and i t looked r i g h t ,
exactly r i g h t . Exactly right. "Go ahead and do it."
DuCasse: So you never doubted again!
Ryan : Never doubted again. I f
t o be absolutely right.
i t ' s r i g h t a t quarter-inch, i t ' s going
Riess: I wish I could think of
well. [laughter]
a r u l e i n m
y l i f e t h a t would work t h a t
You didn't have t o pass t h i s s t u f f i n front of
though?
the diocese
Ryan : Not the d e t a i l s , no. These were the d e t a i l s .
Riess: The windows, o r anything l i k e that?
Ryan : No, no.
Riess: There were no committees?
Ryan : No, no. N
o committees on that.
had t o be though.
Riess: There wasn't an approved list of
Ryan : No.
Riess : Was there a disapproved l i s t ?
Ryan : I don't r e c a l l one. [laughter]
DuCasse: I hope not!
The overall architectural design
a r t i s t s ?
The Catholic A r t Forum; Transitions i n the Church
Ryan : 	 But going back t o the Catholic A r t Forum. The Catholic A r t
Forum I think did a great deal i n those years of transition;
r e a l l y , they were years of t r a n s i t i o n , and particularly so i n
t h e Catholic Church, which was very, very slow i n accepting any
changes i n design and so forth. The Catholic A r t Forum did a
great deal t o open the eyes of p r i e s t s and young seminarians,
t o what i s beautiful, what can be done, i n d i f f e r e n t forms.
The Catholic A r t Forum did have t h a t show down at St.
Patrick's Seminary f o r a l l these young seminarians. I lectured
there, and you lectured, and I think maybe Del Lederle may have
gone down there. And i t did expose the young fellows t o what
Ryan : t h e i r d u t i e s might be when they became p r i e s t s , the non-
e c c l e s i a s t i c and the other things. They i n e f f e c t would be
exposed t o being patrons of the a r t s , and therefore they had
a responsibility t o have some understanding: t h i s i s t h e t h e s i s
we gave them.
DuCasse: Right.
Ryan : And a t t h a t time the Catholic A r t Forum did produce some designs
t h a t were r e a l l y q u i t e excellent and were most certainly
acceptable t o a r e c a l c i t r a n t church t h a t w a s r e s i s t a n t t o change.
A l o t of
medieval a r t ,
things we had a t t h a t time had t h e i r origins i n
curiously enough.
DuCasse: Yes, and even Byzantine.
Ryan : Yes. The Byzantine and medieval a r t , you'd t r a c e it, and repro-
duce it i n a very simplified s o r t of way. They were very
beautiful things, and exposed them t o something t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t
from t h e r e a l l y awful things t h a t happened during t h e nineteenth
century.
Riess: What were the awful things?
Ryan : Well, the overly ornate things t h a t were done i n cheap materials.
Riess: P l a s t e r or--.
Ryan : Plaster. Even gilded bronze and things of t h a t s o r t t h a t were
done. I can s t i l l think of candelabras with e l e c t r i c l i g h t s
coming out of them, you know, t h a t were p r e t t y t e r r i b l e really.
Riess: Victorian.
DuCasse: I n a way, but a l s o inspired by some of the German things too.
They went i n f o r a great deal of kitsch, a s we called it.
Ryan : Yes, you're absolutely r i g h t . A l o t of
nineteenth-century Bavarian kitsch.
it was s o r t of
DuCasse: It was j u s t overblown.
Ryan : Y e s .
DuCasse: The Baroque was overblown, but i n such a palatable way.
Ryan : I n a magnificent way, yes.
DuCasse: But t h i s , you see, was watered-down, uninspired.
Ryan : And done cheaply.
Riess: Things t h a t would be purchased from catalogues?
Ryan : To a great extent.
DuCasse: Y e s .
Riess: And made i n t h i s country?
DuCasse: Well, probably some of them were copied i n t h i s country.
Ryan : Yes, right.
DuCasse: O r that may have been t h e i r inspiration.
Riess: It is i n t e r e s t i n g t o think about these priests.
get taught a l i t t l e t a s t e ?
Where -
do they
DuCasse: I f they're not born with it.
Riess: I suppose depending on where they studied f o r the priesthood,
they would have been i n more or l e s s contact with quality s t u f f .
Ryan : Well, even there where they studied f o r the priesthood--.
We'll come t o t h i s l a t e r on i n the question of St. Mary's
Cathedral.
Many of t h e people i n t h e hierarchy a r e mostly educated i n
Rome, a t t h e American College i n Rome, a t the Gregorian College,
and so forth. So they were exposed t o r e a l l y high-quality a r t ,
but t o many of them, nothing ever equaled the High Renaissance.
So the whole idea of t h e i r sense of beauty was the High Renais-
sance.
DuCasse: I know t h a t ' s what Archbishop McGucken told u s when he came t o
our A r t Forum t o t a l k about t h e cathedral before the cathedral
was even r e a l l y planned. He said, "I have t o t e l l you r i g h t
off t h a t m
y greatest enthusiasm, what I respond to, i s High
Renaissance art." Well, of course, a l l of our h e a r t s dropped
several feet. But h i s church certainly was not a High Renais-
sance church.
Riess: You said that t h e Catholic A r t Forum came a t a time of transition.
You two apparently know what the t r a n s i t i o n is; I j u s t want t o
know specifically what you're transitioning from and to. Does
t h i s have t o do with changes i n the liturgy?
Ryan : 	 P a r t i a l l y , p a r t i a l l y . There a l s o were changes i n general
thinking and changes within the Catholic Church i t s e l f and the
adapting t o changing norms of beauty.
Certainly, i n the design of the cathedral, you couldn't
have picked a team f o r designing a contemporary building more
i l l - s u i t e d than Archbishop McGucken and myself. [laughter]
A s I say, Archbishop McGucken, h i s greatest sense of beauty
was t h e High Renaissance, which he loved. He lived i n Rome
f o r a l l of h i s formative years, a s a young man. And I was
trained a t the Beaux-Arts with the sense of doing things i n the
grand manner and sense of r e a l l y s o r t of simplified t r a d i t i o n a l
architecture. But by simplifying things I mean it had t o be,
a s I said before, i n form, a s opposed t o t h e simplification of
d e t a i l .
A c l a s s i c example of t h a t is the National Shrine i n
Washington, which is the Catholic National Shrine, of Inunacu-
l a t e Conception, I think, which was designed around the turn
of t h e century, and it was very w e l l designed, a very handsome
c l a s s i c a l building with a s l i g h t l y Byzantine feeling t o it, and
i t was very handsomely done.
It wasn't executed u n t i l the l a t e 1920s, and there w a s a
compromise i n t h e d e t a i l i n g of t h a t building which has t o t a l l y
ruined t h e building. The building, I think, is most unsuccess-
f u l . Its d e t a i l i n g is a compromise towards what i n those days
they called "modernism." The moldings were done i n a fashion
t h a t didn't f i t the building, and destroyed the building.
You've seen i t , haven't you. [ t o DuCasse]
DuCasse: 	 No, I ' v e j u s t seen pictures of it. Unfortunately, I ' v e never
seen i t .
Ryan : 	 I have, j u s t once, and i t ' s unsuccessful. It's too bad.
I f you compared these two buildings, the National Shrine
and the National Cathedral, I think i t ' s i n f i n i t e l y superior t o
do a superb job i n a t r a d i t i o n a l s t y l e than it is t o water down
what is e s s e n t i a l l y a t r a d i t i o n a l building. The National
Cathedral i n Washington, the Episcopal Cathedral, is absolutely
superb. It's a magnificent, magnificent building, and i t i s
done a s a Gothic building, done with great t a s t e and beauty,
and i t ' s i n f i n i t e l y superior t o the Catholic shrine. No compar-
ison. You see, one of them is honestly following a s t y l e . The
other one is attempting t o be modern, a t the same time not.
Ryan : And i t ' s exactly one of the criticisms t h a t I put against
Coventry, by t h e way. Coventry i s very good, it has a certain
sense of drama, but I f e e l there t h a t i t ' s a t r a d i t i o n a l
building with modern clothing.
DuCasse: So i t ' s neither f i s h nor fowl.
Ryan : No. It has its good points though.
St. Mary's Cathedral, San Francisco
The Archbishop, t h e Architecture, and the Architects
Ryan : Well, t o go on t o the cathedral, the archbishop, a s I say, h i s
training was one of the High Renaissance. Mine was of the Beaux-
A r t s t r a d i t i o n of doing everything i n the grand manner, but I
had learned by t h i s time t o do the grand manner i n something
that was greatly simplified.
And a l s o bear i n mind, a t t h i s p a r t i c u l a r time, Vatican I1
was j u s t about t o take place. S t . Mary's burned i n September of
1962, and the Vatican Council convened j u s t about a year l a t e r ,
but everybody knew what was i n the wind.
W
e were retained i n March of
McSweeney, Jack Lee, and myself.
t e c t s of t h e cathedral.
1963. I say "we": it was Angus
W
e were retained t o be archi-
Riess: You were already i n partnership?
Ryan : No, curiously enough. Jack Lee and I had been partners f o r
t h i r t e e n years, the firm of Ryan and Lee, which we had dissolved
on December 31, 1959. I s t a r t e d out t h e decade of the s i x t i e s on
my own, and Jack went i n with Angus McSweeney.
As I say, we were retained i n March. I had a c a l l from
Monsignor Harold Collins, who was chairman of the selections
committee f o r the a r c h i t e c t f o r the cathedral. He called me and
said, "Paul, what i n the world i s wrong with you? Practically
every a r c h i t e c t i n the country, not t o mention a l l around the
world, have sent i n brochures, trying t o see i f they can't get
t h i s commission, and you have sent i n nothing."
Ryan : I said, "Well, I ' v e never done that." That's true. I never
r e a l l y went out a f t e r a job. I was very lucky t h a t way, again.
Every one of m
y commissions was j u s t handed t o me. There again,
I was badly trained i n Hobart's office; Hobart is the same type,
t h e old school t h a t a gentleman does not go out and seek a
commission, you know. So I said, "No. "
of
He said, "Well, look, you r i g h t t h i s day send me photographs
a l l your work," which I naturally did, a f t e r being asked.
A few weeks l a t e r he called me and l e t m
e know t h a t I had
the inside track, t h a t i n a l l probability I would be chosen a s
a r c h i t e c t of the cathedral. -
But they were very worried i n t h a t
i t was such an important commission, and inasmuch a s my firm
consisted of j u s t one principal, they were worried t h a t i f I
should die, i f I should get k i l l e d o r i n any way incapacitated,
it would leave t h i s vast project with no continuity, and would I
consider an association?
"Well," I said, "I most certainly would." So I proposed an
association with my former partner and h i s present partner. And
t h a t ' s the way i t came about t h a t the three of u s were chosen.
Riess : Were you surprised a t t h i s procedure of courting you?
Ryan : Well, frankly, no. [laughter] Frankly, no.
Riess : Had they announced a competition?
Ryan : No, there was
ever.
no competition. There was no competition a t a l l ,
Riess : So t h e other brochures were coming i n j u s t because people got
wind that--.
Ryan : And they wanted t o g e t the commission and s o forth.
They reviewed a l l of these things and they made t h e i r
selection. And, I don't know, I j u s t had a feeling t h a t I t d
get it.
DuCasse: And so you did.
Ryan : And s o I did.
Now, Vatican I1 was j u s t beginning, and i t was very evident
t h a t t h i s cathedral had t o be something t h a t would be s t r i c t l y
of our own times, t h a t i t could -
not be something t h a t would be
r e f l e c t i n g the past. Within the Church i t s e l f , there were
Ryan : 	 changes i n the liturgy. Being a Catholic, I emphasize there 

were no changes i n the Church's dogma, but there were very 

serious changes within the l i t u r g i c a l form, the outward form 

of worship, which influenced the e n t i r e design of the church. 

Archbishop McGucken wrote a superb program of what he
wanted i n the way of the cathedral; i t ' s absolutely poetry, i t ' s
beautiful. But he i n no way committed himself t o a , s h a l l we
say, s t y l e o r a feeling. I r e c a l l i n t h a t program he did say
c e r t a i n things, looking back now, t h a t he did achieve. He
wanted t o have a cathedral i n which there were no obstacles
between the altar--himself, i n other words--and the people
around him.
To use h i s expression, "I want t o have the people of God
around me." He said, "I don't want a church i n the round, but
I do want them around me."
"Then," he said, "I'd l i k e t o have, before you come i n t o
the cathedral, a place where there's a t r a n s i t i o n between the
busy world and the cathedral, a peaceful s o r t of place." And,
i n e f f e c t , the great plaza i n front of the cathedral is that.
It was a beautiful program, but he did not i n any way commit
himself t o any suggestion of a style. And a s we went along
making these changes and making studies f o r the cathedral, I
realized t h a t i t would be very, very important t o us t o bring i n
some consultants who were men who would be b e t t e r informed on
contemporary design than I. And i t was a t m
y suggestion that we
brought i n [Pietro] Belluschi and [Pier Luigi] Nervi a s consul-
t a n t s on the job.
Nervi's contribution t o the cathedral is absolutely
phenomenal. For instance, everything above the ring beam i s
essentially his. The type of construction up there, you know,
t h a t ' s a l l s t r i c t l y Nervi.
DuCasse: 	 I think t h a t ' s so beautiful inside, t o see t h a t and f e e l t h a t
construction.
Ryan : 	 Oh, yes. Well, he was a great genius. A s a matter of f a c t , I
consider Nervi s o r t of a Michelangelo of the twentieth century.
He was a marvelous man, an absolutely marvelous, marvelous man.
A great man. The type of man who did not i n any way h e s i t a t e t o
say, ''I don't know." I've met so many pompous people who.give
l o t s of double-talk and so f o r t h and say nothing, but Nervi
never; he'd say, "I don't know, but w e ' l l have t o find out."
Riess: 	 Why d i d you ask Belluschi and Nervi p a r t i c u l a r l y ? Had you worked
with them?
Ryan : 	 No, but I was c e r t a i n l y f a m i l i a r with Nervi's work. H i s Sports
Palace i n I t a l y was, I think, an absolute masterpiece; as a
dome, I think i t ' s a twentieth-century answer t o Michelangelo's
dome o r Brunelleschi's i n Florence.
Riess: 	 S o y o u w e r e t h i n k i n g t h a t y o u h a d t o m a k e a d r a m a t i c d o m e ; t h a t
f i r s t of a l l was a requirement?
Ryan : 	 Y e s .
DuCasse: 	 And a l s o t o have t h a t unimpeded space; i n o t h e r words, no p i l l a r s ,
no supporting p i l l a r s .
Ryan : 	 No p i l l a r s anywhere. And, of course, i n t h a t we a l l had a
d e f i n i t e conscious f e e l i n g we were, i n e f f e c t , t r y i n g t o capture
i n t h e vernacular of t h e twentieth century some of t h e aspira-
t i o n s of t h e t h i r t e e n t h century, which was s o r t of t h e i d e a of
l i f t i n g up t h e mind and h e a r t t o God, without having it i n
Gothic forms. And I think i n t h a t respect you have t h a t .
Then, of course, we were t e r r i b l y , t e r r i b l y f o r t u n a t e i n
having Richard Lippold's baldachino, because t h e s t r u c t u r e is
t h e l i f t i n g up of one's mind and h e a r t t o God, everything l i f t s
up; and Lippold's is t h e converse, it's t h e sense of God's grace
descending back on men. It's r e a l l y a magnificent piece.
Riess: 	 Who found Lippold f o r t h i s ?
Ryan : 	 Belluschi had worked with Lippold i n t h e Portsmouth Priory, t h e
Benedictine Priory i n Portsmouth, and he knew h i s work, and
Lippold is a very magnificent sculptor.
Riess: 	 How much time d i d N e r v i spend out here?
Ryan : 	 N e r v i made s e v e r a l t r i p s out.
Nervi, as 	I say, is a g r e a t , g r e a t man and I loved him
dearly. He d i d n ' t speak any English, by t h e way,
speak superb French, and we had a marvelous t i m e .
dinner a t t h e archbishop's house out on Broadway,
p a r t n e r s and myself, and m
y two co-partners d i d n ' t
but h e did
We'd have
with my two
know what was
going on because t h e archbishop w a s educated i n I t a l y and would
always speak t o Nervi i n I t a l i a n . And I understand I t a l i a n
q u i t e w e l l ; being h a l f Spanish, and being i n I t a l y so o f t e n , I
used t o g e t by f i n e with I t a l i a n , and s o I understood p e r f e c t l y
Ryan :
DuCasse :
Ryan :
DuCasse:
Riess :
Ryan :
Riess :
Ryan :
and I'd answer i n French; he'd turn t o t a l k t o me, and he'd
answer me i n French. So there was a combination of I t a l i a n and
French F i n g around the table.
Those poor fellows!
But he was lovely though. I think I ' l l t e l l you one anecdote
t h a t ' s not architectural. You asked m
e how many times he came.
He came several times, and we made several t r i p s over t o see him.
On one of those t r i p s , he took my wife and myself out t o see the
Sports Palace and he showed us the beginning of the new papal
audience chambers, which was j u s t then beginning t o be under
construction.
And during t h e course of the day I had some progress
photographs on S t . Mary's t h a t I wanted t o show him, so I took
him back t o my h o t e l and he remained down i n t h e lobby with my
wife while I was upstairs. Mind you, m
y wife doesn't speak a
word of e i t h e r French or I t a l i a n , s o I was highly amused when
I came downstairs and here was Clare with one of the great men
of t h e century, and the two of them were communicating i n the
only way they knew possible: they were both holding hands and
smiling a t each other. [laughter]
I s n ' t t h a t lovely? Oh, t h a t ' s wonderful.
Well, i t sounds l i k e a l o t of decisions, then, got made between
you and Nervi and t h e archbishop.
Everything went along beautifully. And Belluschi, of course,
also.
You had said e a r l i e r t h a t i n the case of the cathedral you never
submitted anything t o the building committee.
Not once. It was a very strange thing. The archdiocese has
a superb building committee, and not once did the archbishop
ever show those drawings t o the building committee u n t i l it was
ready t o go under construction, purely a s a courtesy. That is
one of the great successes of t h a t building.
A s a matter of f a c t , I gave a t a l k a t the Bohemian Grove
about building the cathedral, and afterwards I had a l o t of
fellows come over and t a l k t o m
e and say, "The reason the
building is s o successful, a s you pointed out very well i n the
talk, is t h i s : t h a t there were only t h i r t e e n people who had an
involvement i n t h a t building."
Ryan : There were no committees t o throw i n t h i s and t h a t and d i f f e r e n t
ideas. There were actually t h i r t e e n people. A t the c l i e n t
l e v e l , there was the archbishop and Monsignor Bowe. Monsignor
Thomas J. Bowe was pastor of the cathedral church [May 1962
t o June 19811. So there were two a t the c l i e n t level. In
e f f e c t , you might say there was one, really, since the arch-
bishop had the ultimate say i n anything he wanted.
DuCasse: It w a s t o be h i s seat, a f t e r a l l .
Ryan : A t the architectural level, there w a s McSweeney , myself, Jack
Lee, and B i l l Schuppel, who was our project architect. Then we
had Leonard Robinson, our local engineer. W
e had Nervi and
Belluschi. And the contractor, Cahill Brothers; Dick Cahill
put up an o f f i c e on t h e cathedral s i t e , and he and t h r e e men
from h i s o f f i c e were involved i n t h e project. And t h a t ' s a l l .
And decisions always occurred between those t h i r t e e n men.
So it w a s p r e t t y easy t o work with t h i r t e e n people r a t h e r than
a big, b i g unwieldy committee. And, even among us, you don't
win a l l your b a t t l e s .
Riess: Youmeanyoudidn'twinallyourbattles?
Ryan : I didfi't win a l l m
y b a t t l e s . [laughter]
Incidentally, a very i n t e r e s t i n g thing is t h a t i n t h e design
of the cathedral, a s I say, we became very aware early t h a t i t
had t o be contemporary, and t o do something contemporary without
being gimmicky was the most d i f f i c u l t thing of a l l . I kept
preaching a l l the t i m e , i n and out of the office--. W
e had an
o f f i c e down on Van Ness Avenue here, and we, by the way, at no
t i m e had more than a dozen draftsmen on t h a t job, which meant
the principals were involved i n t h i s thing daily. And-- I've
l o s t m
y t r a i n of thought.
Riess: W e l l , you said t h a t
gimmicky modern.
i t couldn't be gimmicky, i t couldn't be
Ryan : Oh, t h a t ' s it. Exactly, exactly. I kept preaching a t the o f f i c e
a l l the time t o bear i n mind t h a t t h i s building may l a s t f o r
centuries. It so happened t h a t year t h a t Notre Dame i n P a r i s
was celebrating i t s 800th anniversary.
I said, "It may, l i k e Notre Dame, very well be standing
hundreds and hundreds of years from now. W
e have t o have some-
thing t h a t is enduring i n i t s appearance and i n i t s s t y l e , and
w e have t o avoid l i k e the plague anything t h a t is the cliche of
the moment, and keep it simple and permanent." So there again
it was going back t o what I originally said, a question of elegant
simplicity and of proportions.
Riess: I n the beginning, when you and McSweeney and Lee started out,
you had thought t h a t you could conceive the whole thing?
Ryan : Not r e a l l y , not really. No, no. I f e l t t h e need very early
that we should have somebody i n there. Belluschi's r o l e was a
very good one i n t h a t it e s s e n t i a l l y was the r o l e of the c r i t i c ,
the fresh eye. He'd come i n t o San Francisco maybe once a month,
and he'd come and look a t what we were doing, and he'd say,
"Uh-oh, I think you're getting a l i t t l e fuzzy i n here. Maybe
that needs restudying a l i t t l e b i t there." And i t ' s a very,
very helpful thing. He was f a r enough away from the program
and close enough t o i t where h i s eye was r e a l l y q u i t e f r e s h a t
a l l times.
Riess: The dome a s i t now e x i s t s , or the roof a s it now e x i s t s , do you
think of the building a s having been designed from t h a t point
down?
Ryan : To a great extent, yes. W
e usually c a l l i t a cupola or a dome,
f o r lack of a b e t t e r word. It's neither. It's eight hyperbolic
paraboloids.
And it was r e a l l y from there on down. From there on up i t
was r e a l l y Nervi's concept. From there on down is t h e culmina-
t i o n .of a l l of our thinking together. It's almost impossible t o
pinpoint it and say so-and-so did exactly t h i s and that.
Riess: How long were you working on i t i n f a c t ?
Ryan : Let's see, I gave twelve years of m
y l i f e t o i t . [laughing]
1'11 never forget when it f i r s t appeared i n the paper. It
was s o r t of unfortunate, the picture of t h e archbishop and myself
holding the l i t t l e model, and i t wasn't a good picture. But
various friends of mine had seen t h i s thing, and a t parties--
many of them, by the way, were the l a r g e s t contributors t o t h i s
thing--they would say t o me, "Paul, you know, I l i k e your
cathedral, i t looks very interesting, but why couldn't it have
been Gothic?" So I ' d have t o go i n t o a long song and dance:
"I l i k e Gothic very, very much, i t was most apropos t o the
people of t h e twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but i t no longer
speaks t o men of our times i n our terms. Therefore, we have t o
have something t h a t i s right."
Riess: H
o
w about the archbishop?
did he come around?
H e was your Renaissance man. When
Ryan : He realized t h i s r a t h e r early too, because very, very early we
were t o t a l l y f r e e of any c l a s s i c a l design. That is, i n the
architectural form. On the other hand, i f you take a look a t
the plan, i t ' s s t r i c t l y Beaux-Arts. Have you seen i t i n plan?
Riess : No.
Ryan : Well, someday take a look a t one of the plans. It has a l l the
formality and the sense of space and approach t h a t a Beaux-
A r t s plan would have.
But anyhow, these same people, by the way, who I met years
later--actually those same people--with incredulity i n t h e i r
voice would say t o me, "Why, Paul, I ' m actually beginning t o
l i k e your cathedral.'' [laughter] It's grown on people now and
people have accepted it.
Riess: When you say twelve years, r e a l l y what do you mean by twelve
years?
Ryan: W
e were retained i n March of '63. The building was completed i n
'71. I ' v e been associated with it--like the doors, I had t o go
t o Milan t o see the doors--I've been t i e d i n t o it a good twelve
years. In f a c t I s t i l l am every now and then called i n f o r
d i f f e r e n t things.
Significant Decisions on the I n t e r i o r of the Cathedral
Riess: You indicated e a r l i e r t h a t there
t o add t o i t ?
a r e s t i l l things you would l i k e
Ryan : Oh, yes. I ' d l i k e very, very much t o do something about the
l i g h t i n g over the main sanctuary, which I think is unsuccessful.
Riess: I n the case of the cathedral, did you have the kind of
of the i n t e r i o r t h a t you managed i n your e a r l i e r work?
control
Ryan : To a great extent, t o a great extent. A s I say, some b a t t l e s
you win, some you don't. And one of the b a t t l e s I did win, by
the way, was the f a c t t h a t we don't have bronze doors. The
archbishop had wanted bronze doors there, and I begged, "Let's
have bronze g r i l l e s . " I said, "To me, a bronze door means Fort
Knox; it says, stay out. You want t o i n v i t e people i n t o t h i s
thing. A t l e a s t with bronze g r i l l e s they can see i n t o the
cathedral." So he agreed t o that.
Ryan : And also, t o bring t h e c i t y i n t o the cathedral and take t h e
cathedral out t o the c i t y , t h a t ' s why the four corners a r e
glass. B
y t h e way, incidentally, the o r i g i n a l concept was t h a t
the e n t i r e periphery of the building was t o have been glass;
it was t o have been t o t a l l y glass a l l t h e way around because
he wanted the cathedral t o be p a r t of t h e c i t y , you know.
Riess : Was the cathedral the f i r s t r e a l l y modern building t h a t you were
involved with? Is t h a t one of the ways you might look a t i t ?
Ryan: No, not really.
Riess: Had there been any precedent i n your practice f o r t h i s building?
Ryan: No, not f o r t h i s building. No, no. N
o religious building. I
have done contemporary buildings i n a number of other things,
-
but n 0 t . a church of t h i s c a l i b r e o r i n t h i s generzl feeling of
design.
Riess : How much time w a s spent actually i n the designing?
Ryan: Designing? Let me see. W
e were retained i n March. The prelim-
inary drawings were accepted i n December. It was r e a l l y quite
f a s t . That was December of '63, and we broke ground I think i n
July of '65. So the drawings were done I think r a t h e r rapidly
too.
R i e s s : You were retained i n March; when did Nervi f i r s t become involved?
Ryan : Probably around July o r August, maybe even September.
Riess : Did your designs progress from less modern t o more modern? I
mean can you remember your o r i g i n a l design, the feeling there?
Ryan: Well, I remember the o r i g i n a l presentation with the archbishop,
trying t o sound him out how i t w a s going t o be. W
e decided t o
present three d i f f e r e n t schemes t o him, j u s t t o get h i s general
feeling how he wanted t o go. One of them was archconservative.
One of them was moderately conservative-contemporary, the kind
I don't like. [laughter] The t h i r d one w a s r e a l l y r a t h e r far-
out, almost unbuildable, and he leaned towards that.
DuCasse: How interesting.
Ryan: So t h a t gave us our keynote, and we knew then the direction we
should take. And from t h a t point on, it was p r e t t y much easy
s a i l i n g .
Riess: It was unbuildable because of engineering problems?
Ryan :
Riess :
Ryan :
R i e s s :
Ryan :
DuCasse:
Ryan :
Well, it was one of those things, it j u s t wouldn't have worked.
Was it i n a way what your dream church would have been, that
unbuildable one?
No, no.
It was not something you were deeply attached to.
I n t h i s cathedral, incidentally, the thing t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g
i n t h i s i s t h a t i n so many churches the pews d i c t a t e the form
of t h e building. Almost invariably i n churches y o u ' l l see they
follow the alignment of t h e pews. I f i t ' s an octagonal church,
the pews follow t h e octagon, and so forth. But somewhere along
the l i n e we had t h e very happy thought of r e a l i z i n g t h a t a pew
is nothing more nor less than furniture. And the pews, i n e f f e c t ,
a r e l a i d out i n t h e cathedral a s you would a Greek theater, and
it answered t h e archbishop's idea of having the people around
him, not a l l the way around, but around him, gathered together.
And t h e building i t s e l f has absolutely no r e l a t i o n t o the form
of t h e furniture.
Among other things t h a t happened--as I say, t h e doors, I
won t h a t b a t t l e , and I won another one. You see, t r a d i t i o n d i e s
very slowly: we came up with t h i s more o r l e s s square plan
here, and i n t h e archbishop's mind he wanted t o have the tradi-
t i o n a l idea of the great processional a i s l e . Every-cathedral
always has a great, long a i s l e and the archbishop comes i n i n
a l l t h i s magnificent regalia and blesses the people a s he walks
down t h i s great processional a i s l e .
Well, obviously we don't have t h a t i n St. Mary's today.
But it didn't happen easily. W
e had so many schemes where we
had what I used t o c a l l "the frying-pan plan,'' because w e had
the square or the round and s o f o r t h with t h i s long a i s l e coming
i n , which made no sense. So, eventually, t h a t went.
Another thing t h a t died slowly was--again i n the arch-
bishop's mind--he wanted t o have a marble f l o o r throughout the
cathedral, which i s perfectly l o g i c a l because most of t h e
cathedrals of the great Renaissance period were a l l done i n
marble floors. I had strongly wanted t o have the f l o o r i n
brick, which i t ended up being.
It's so much b e t t e r with t h e building.
W e l l , not only that, it gives a warmth t o the cathedral. The
bare concrete and the wood and t h e brick give a c e r t a i n warmth
t o i t ; t o me, I ' m s t i l l amazed t h a t a building t h a t s i z e has a
c e r t a i n waGth. You know, it 's a vast building, and I don't
f e e l dwarfed i n it i n that way.
Ryan : But anyhow, we gradually talked a way t o having some brick i n
there, some brick and some marble. And then f i n a l l y we got r i d
of the marble and have only the marble i n the sanctuary on the
argument t h a t t h a t created a s o r t of more precious place, t h a t
being i n marble, and t h a t the cathedral i t s e l f is more earthy
and has more warmth t o i t . That's one of the few b a t t l e s I won.
R i e s s : I ' d l i k e t o read from t h i s l e t t e r t h a t I received about three
years ago from John T. Collins, "for Father James OIShaughnessy,
administrator of the cathedral. "
Ryan : Oh, yes. He is the rector now.
Riess : H e ' s describing the cathedral. [reading] "Doors were executed
by another famous contemporary I t a l i a n , Enrico Manfrini."
Ryan : Manfrini, yes. He j u s t created a madonna f o r the cathedral, by
the way, Manfrini did. It's i n s t a l l e d , and i t ' s very beautiful.
Go and s e e t h a t , i t ' s very handsome, very handsome.
Riess : [ s t i l l reading] "The t i l e mosaic of Our Lady of Guadalupe was
executed by an unknown Mexican a r t i s t . "
Ryan : [pausing] It w a s not my choice.
DuCasse: That was one of t h e things he d i d n ' t have a choice over.
Ryan : Well, 1'11 t e l l you t h i s . F i r s t of a l l , t h e cathedral is
dedicated t o Our Lady of the Assumption, and the new madonna
is Our Lady of the Assumption. It so happened t h a t Monsignor
-
Bowe had a very personal devotion t o Our Lady of Guadalupe, and
he rationalized t h a t Our Lady of Guadalupe, i n e f f e c t , you might
c a l l Our Lady of the Americas. And so he specifically wanted
that.
Riess : "Unknown" Mexican a r t i s t ?
Ryan : I think Monsignor Bowe bought the mosaic down i n Mexico and
brought it up here and said, "Here. Hang it." [laughter]
Riess : [reading] "The doors of t h a t mosaic a r e the work of a l o c a l
Marin a r t i s t , Peter Traphagen. He a l s o designed the bronze
doors f o r the a l t a r where the Sacred Presence is reserved."
Ryan : That's correct,
[laughter]
yes. That's another b a t t l e I didn't win.
The thing is--I say "the b a t t l e s I won1'--we never r e a l l y
did have any b a t t l e s . You reach a c e r t a i n point where you say,
"Okay, I lose; go ahead and do i t your way."
DuCasse: I wish you hadn't l o s t .
Ryan : The tabernacle?
DuCasse: No, no. I mean I wish t h a t you had had
went i n t o the church.
more control over what
Ryan : A few things went i n there t h a t I was not very happy about, yes.
DuCasse: And it i s n ' t that maybe they aren't good i n themselves, but
there's where you need the one person t o guide the selection.
Ryan : Well, I think I know what you're talking about. I think you're
talking about the s t a t u e of the patrons, t h a t one inside there.
See, what happened there is t h a t Monsignor Bowe retained a woman
who had done q u i t e a b i t of work i n t h e National Shrine.
DuCasse: Ah! So, of course, she had a good reputation.
Ryan : Yes. So t h a t ' s it. And she was supposed t o coordinate a l l the
things t h a t went i n the cathedral, and t h a t ' s been stopped since,
by t h e way.
A s I say, the new madonna is excellent; i t ' s a beautiful
madonna, very, very handsome, and i t ' s f r e e from the wall, q u i t e
f r e e from t h e wall. I n f a c t , I j u s t came back from a t r i p t o
England and France. About a day o r two before I l e f t they had
a mockup made, again making a mockup so you can see, and s e e
exactly where you'd put i t , because f l a t on the wall i t would
have gotten l o s t . This thing is out five-and-a-half f e e t now
from the wall. It has a wonderful sense of l e v i t a t i o n t o it.
DuCasse: And i t should have.
Ryan : It's t h e Assumption, you know. So often you see representations
of Our Lady o r Christ standing on a cloud. This a r t i s t had t h e
good sense not t o have them standing on a cloud; they're
d e f i n i t e l y l e v i t a t i n g , t h e i r f e e t a r e twisted s o r t of t h i s way
[gesturing] so they're obviously standing on nothing at a l l .
Riess: I don't know the s t a t i o n s there. There a r e s t a t i o n s there?
Ryan : Y e s , the s t a t i o n s there were commissioned from a sculptor on
the East Coast, whose name, again, escapes me. There again,
our main thought was t o not see them.
Riess : Not s e e them?
Ryan : Exactly .
DuCasse: Y e s , they were not t o be too obvious.
Ryan: Sort of t o lose them.
R i e s s : Why is t h a t ? Was t h a t p a r t of the new Catholic Church?
Ryan : W e l l , now, but the thing i s t h i s , t h a t i f you have s t a t i o n s ,
a f t e r a l l there a r e fourteen of them, and they can take over
an e n t i r e building, and I don't think i t ' s t h a t important a
devotion within the l i t u r g y of t h e Church t o warrant having
such an important place i n t h e church.
Like over here a t Cristo Rey, by the way, t h e s t a t i o n s a r e
l i t t l e medallions about t h a t size. [gesturing] They're l i t t l e
s i l v e r medallions. L i t t l e symbols. They're t i n y and they're
a t eye level so t h a t people who say t h i s devotion can see them,
but they don't take over the church; you're hardly aware they
e x i s t .
And w e did t h a t i n St. Mary's. The s t a t i o n s are.mounted on
one wall only, with a wooden background, where you have sound-
deadening behind t h e wall, l i k e s l a t s , you know. They're bronze
color, almost exactly the same a s the wood. I f you look f o r
them, they a r e there; i f you don't r e a l l y search f o r them, you
don't see them.
You can never t e l l the awful things t h a t might happen. 1'11
never forget, one day I was summoned t o take a look a t some
drawings t h a t were made f o r the cathedral f o r the s t a t i o n s , and
the archbishop was t o meet there with us and a few others, and I
was there and looked a t these things with horror. They were about
t h a t high. [gesturing] They were paintings, and I swear they
looked exactly l i k e an ad f o r the Plaza de Toros, you know.
Absolutely appalling, you know, appalling. The a r t i s t was there,
and the archbishop came over t o me, and I could see the anger on
h i s face, and he spoke t o m
e i n French. He said, "Get those
things out of t h i s building and never l e t me see them again!"
[laughter]
But you see the s o r t of things you r i s k getting. Fortunately,
the archbishop did have good taste. And he was strong t h a t way,
r e a l l y . There were no uncertain terms.
DuCasse: W e l l , he had very good taste.
Ryan : H e did.
DuCasse: Based on t h e Renaissance idea, but t h a t ' s a c l a s s i c a t t i t u d e .
Ryan: I t ' s a f a n t a s t i c , f a n t a s t i c t r i b u t e to t h a t man,
able t o produce a building such a s t h i s . I t ' s a
t r i b u t e t o him.
t h a t he was
f a n t a s t i c
Riess: It c e r t a i n l y is.
church?
Do you have a copy of h i s program f o r the
Ryan : Oh, yes.
Riess: Do you suppose you could find i t somewhere, or do you have it,
Kai?
DuCasse: No.
Ryan : I have it. I f i t ' s important t o you, I could find i t . It's i n
the, s h a l l we say, the dead f i l e s , and they're i n storage. I
could find i t i f you're r e a l l y t e r r i b l y , t e r r i b l y interested i n
it.
Riess: I am t e r r i b l y , t e r r i b l y interested. You said i t ' s a poetic thing.
Ryan : Perfectly beautiful, yes.
Riess: And you're talking about a man who did, largely through your
e f f o r t s , go through a change of mind.
Ryan : Mine and others. Don't forget,
others, among the thirteen.
I was j u s t one cog among the
Riess: How important i s the Catholic A r t Forum i n t h e ultimate look of
the cathedral would you say?
Ryan : That's a tough one, really. Well, I ' l l put it t h i s way, its
importance was it may have had-- [The tape ended here, but a t
the request of t h e e d i t o r , Paul Ryan added the following remarks.]
Had I been called upon t o have chosen a patron s a i n t f o r the
Catholic A r t Forum, without h e s i t a t i o n I would have chosen St.
John the Baptist, t h e "voice crying i n the wilderness." It took
many years f o r t h e r e s u l t s of t h e e f f o r t s of the Forum t o manifest
themselves, but today, f o r t y years l a t e r , they a r e very evident
i n a l l forms of r e l i g i o u s a r t .
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist : Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Reli,gious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Micaela DuCasse
T
H
E EDUCATION AND DEVOTED LIFE W
O
R
K O
F A CATHOLIC ARTIST
An Interview Conducted by 

Suzanne B. Riess 

i n 1984 

Copyright
@ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
OAKLAND TRIBUNE
May 18, 1989 

. -
OU CASSE, M i Mor-
.tine2 ,daughter of Xovi-
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a
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time to the 8dtlqnd MU-
seum ond The Un~versitv
of CaliforniaBancroftLi-
brary. She continuedher
sculptures with Ruth
Crovalh of SF. and her
research and teaching.
Swvivors include two
daughters Jeanne Du
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grandchifidreki.
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a 

TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Micaela DuCasse
INTERVIEW HISTORY
GROWING UP WITH ART AND RELIGION, AND WITH ELSIE WHITAKER AND
XAVIER MARTINEZ, AND HARRIET DEAN
THE RELIGIOUS ARTIST; COMMISSION FOR THE FRANCISCANS
CARMEL: PLANS FOR A CATHOLIC ART CENTER, AND MUSIC IN THE MISSION
ADVOCATES FOR LITURGICAL ARTS; LITURGICAL ARTS MAGAZINE
THE CATHOLIC ART FORUM
IIContemporary R e l i g i o u s A r t by C a l i f o r n i a A r t i s t s , " 1952
The C a t h o l i c A r t i s t s Organize--Aims and Achievements
RELIGIOUS ART IN THE 1960s: A RETROSPECTIVE LOOK AT THE JUNIPER0
SERRA SHOP, AND THE CATHOLIC AXT FORUM
OTHER DUCASSE WORK
RELIGIOUS ART OUTSIDE THE BAY AREA
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Micaela DuCasse, the co-interviewer i n t h i s l i t u r g i c a l a r t s o r a l history
project, introduces some of her interviewees as artists with a t r u e vocation.
B
y the same token, we can say t h a t K a i ' s vocation and determination were
planted early and deeply rooted. With her background of flamboyant artist
father ( a l b e i t anti-clerical), and searching Catholic convert mother, and her
convent school education, she was a t home from the s t a r t with a r t and f a i t h .
From an early childish t a s t e f o r the saccharine s t y l e of figure t o be found on
holy cards, she graduated quickly t o a European travels-influenced appreciation
f o r r e a l excellence i n religious a r t . In Micaela DuCassels great murals f o r
the Franciscans done i n 1939 she contributed an original California stamp of -
her own.
With the devotion of a born teacher and eagerness of a student of the
Church and of a r t , Micaela DuCasse happily embraced,in 1953, the idea of
bringing together a group of a r t i s t s whose e f f o r t s would be put t o r a i s i n g
the consciousness of practitioners and users of l i t u r g i c a l and religious a r t
works. That group was the Catholic A r t Forum. As related i n the preceding
group of interviews dealing with the history of the Forum, it was i n p a r t the
lack of understanding by the church public and the prelates t h a t made such an
organized e f f o r t necessary: congregations were no more l i k e l y t o want something
modern i n t h e i r churches than on t h e i r l i v i n g room walls; p r i e s t s were seldom
sophisticated enough t o venture out t o meet the artists; a r t i s t s needed group
support and exhibitions.
The extensive interview with Micaela DuCasse t h a t follows takes her from
h e r very early years t o the here and now of her a c t i v i t i e s with St. Andrews
Priory i n Valyermo. Readers of e a r l i e r interviews i n t h i s volume w i l l meet
here t h e interviewer who s o enthusiastically went back t o greet old friends,
reviewing the formation, successes, and the demise of the Catholic A r t Forum.
The interview took place i n Piedmont, California, high up on Scenic Avenue
where Kai and her friend Marian l i v e i n t h e house i n which Kai grew up, i n an
atmosphere t h a t is still a s o r t of shrine t o a once-was Bohemian l i f e . The
reader w i l l find t h a t Micaela DuCasse was as thoughtful and enthusiastic and
generous with her s e l f as she has been i n her approach t o her interviewees.
Suzanne B. Riess
Interviewer-Editor
October 1984
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California a t Berkeley
Regional Oral Iiistory Off i c e
Room 486 The Bancroft Library
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
University of California
Berkeley, California 94720
(Please p r i n t o r w r i t e c l e a r l y )
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Your f u l l name ,
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Present community
Education
MICALLA NARTINEZ DUCASSE, born Ssmrencisco ,Ce l i f o r n i a ,I913
' 1
C e r t i f i c a t e of Fine ~ r t s , ~ a l i f s r n u e '
College of A r t s end Crefts,I932
1938, one year postgraduete study a t SanFranciaco A r t I n s t i t u t e :
Fresco Painting under Victor Arnautoff
Sculpture under Ralph Stackpole; extended private studio work i n stone
carving with Ruth Cravath, 1965-1975.
Co~~.4ISSIoNs
:
1939-40-two murals f o r t h e Franciscan Library,St.Boniface Church,S.F.
I ) ~ C / R ~ L J (Now known a s The ldarien Center Librery)
1941-42-Fourflof a s e t of seven(proposed,the l a s t t h r e e never corn-
pleted) Tor t h e l i b r a r y af SenLuis Rey Mission,Oce nsida,Ce ,
1943- hPIural of The Ascencion of Christ over t h e High A l t s a d s a t of
S t a t i o n s of t h e Cross f o r The Naval S t a t i o n Chepel, freasure
Islend, Shl%A(
1943-44,hlIurel f o r t h e temporerg chepe1,ldonterey Nevab A i r S t a t i o n
1949-Nativity Group,high r e l i e f ,cast stone,for t h e Main porte1,Old
St. Meryl s Chrtrch,Christmas decoration.
1949-&lure1 of Our I ~ d y
of GueAa?u~e,f o r the shrine i n her honor,
St, Boniface Church,SanFrencisco,
1949-Set of S t a t i o n s of the Cross,for the chapel of t h e ~ o m i n i c a n
S i s t e r s Convent,St.Leo9s Schoo1,Oeklend.
1950-Set of S t a t i o n s of the Cross f o r the restored I~~i~sion,SenAn-
tohio de Pedue,Jolon,Californie
1950-Set of S t a t i o n s of the Cross, Poor Clere's Convent,Ssnte Cruz,Co.
. 1950-Set of Stations of t h e Cross f o r the oetholia ohepe1,Soledad
S t a t e Prison,Soledad,Ce.
1953-Set of Stations of the Cross f o r St, David's Church,Richmond,Cs.
1954- S e t of i>Steions of the Cross f o r Church of The Annunoietion,
Nonterey ,Ca1if ornia
1961-Mose i c lAural,4'X5', i n collaboration with June Foster Hess,Berkelsy
3962- Hosaic Mur~1,7~X4'
9 tt w tt w w
1964- H i s t o r i c a l Map 4
'
X
8
' of,.ground-plan f o r SenAntonio N;ission,for
St Bonqface Chrtrch,SanY_rencisco,Cs, .
.
1965- ~ u $ l4'X6' f o r hbdonns Residence, SenF,ancisco,Ca
1951-Summer Sculpture WorkshQp under Archipenko,Carmel A r t I n s t i t u t e
1952-Exhibited with The Religious A r t Show, DeYoung l'Iuseum,GolZlnnGete Perk
1953-55 ," * The Catholjc A r t Forum ob SanFrenc~8coTrevelling S h m
Joined t h e Faculty of t h e A r t Dep~rtment,SanFRsnciscoCollege for Woman,
Summer of 1954;Sumer of 1955; Full-time Instructor i n A r t 1955---------•
1960-67,served a s Chniman,Art Dept,S,F.C.W.I971-8,8,8ctinp, Ch~iman,
6969-70-Fall Semesters,Gues.t Lecturer i n g a l i f o r n i e A r t History,College
of The Hoty Nemes,Oaklend,Californie .First time suoh e course has
been offered i n any California College.Course originated with me.
1979- Lecturer i n California Art History, UC Berkeley Extension
1960 end continuing: Scuplture Workshop under d i r e a t i o n of Ruth Cravath,
Clay ;Wax;Hydrocal ; Stone Carving end outting.Works s o f e r oompleted : I
Gravestone for Xavier Mortfnez,Mont,erey Cem~tery,TennesseeErIarbbb;St.
Francis,pink Tennessee marble ; St.Benediat ,grey Vermont marble :presently
a t work on a double p o r t r a i t in r e l e i f , g r e y tennessee marble of my twq
young g r e n d s o n s : C o n , ~ M IN iP72.WHd7€ M A R A u R E u f F f ~ ~ m e ; r o f m ~
f l b n f a , c ~ ~ r
w,MI+RT~NE&, 1773. ~ L J D I C D
y\.Wum; & ~ y / u u
/ * r J f i r ~ : * r - : .dr
F & r ~ n
dm&,l&;kw;ruy /;
? W-/f7
s I
. .
Y.TCAZLA :IA3TTIf3Z DUCASSE
Fly formal ePvcation i n a r t began a t the California College Cf Arts
And Crafts under m
y father's direction,in 1928.1 graduated with a
Certificate In Fine Arts i n 1332.1n 1938 I d i d a year's postgraduate
study a t the SanFrancisco A r t I n s t i t u t e i n Fresco Fainting with
Victor Arnautoff; and i n sculpture i n ' clay from the model with Ralph
Stackpole.Xany years l a t e r I d i d extended studio work with Ruth
Cravath i n stone carving, T965-T975.
During the years between 1939 and 1965,I was commissioned t o do
many murals on religious subjects f o r : St.Boniface Church,S .F. ;
SanLuis Rey Mission; SanAntonio ;-Iission; Treasure Island Naval Chapel;
Yonterey Raval A i r Ztation Chapel.Severa1 s e t s of Stattons O
f The
Cross were painted f o r churches i n the greater Bay Area.A s e t of
s t a t i o n s i n c a s t stone were made f o r the Poor Clares Convent i n Aptos.
A mural was painted f o r the Kadonna Residence on 14c A l l i s t e r S t r e e t ,
which has since been relocated a t The 3esidence on Pine Street,S.F.
nvo 1-sosaic Xurals of secular subjects were made i n collaboration
with June Foster Hass ( now deceased),for two appartment houses i n
Berkeley.
During the 1950's I was involved with the orgznizing of The Reli-
gious A r t Show a t The DeYoung Xuseun i n 1952;From which was organ-
ized the Catholic A
r
t Forum i n 1953,and i n which I played an active
p a r t u n t i l i t s end i n 1968.
In I954 T was hired t o teach a summer class i n drawing and painting
a t EanFrancisco College For Vomen. In 1955 I washired as full-time
Instructor i n A r t and eventually served as chairman of the Depart-
ment, I960-70.During m
y tenure as A r t Instructor I taught Draving,
Painting i n both o i l and water color,Design&Composition,Analysis
O f Painting,Hlstory O f A r t . In the Crafts I introduced courses i n
Mosaic,Stained Glass,',~~eaving
and related Fabric and Fiber Arts.
I r e t i r e d i n 1978.
I organized and taught the first survey course i n History O f Cali-
fornia A r t a t Holy Names College, Oakland,in 1968,as a preview f o r
the opening of the Oakland ?i?useum,The ?!!usem of California, i n 1969.
Eventually I taught t h i s course a t Lone Yountain College and a t
U.C.Extension,Zerkeley.
T
H
E EDUCATION AND DEVOTED LIFE W
O
R
K OF A CATHOLIC ARTIST
[Interview date: March 27, 19841
Growing U
p with A r t and Religion, and with E l s i e Whitaker
and Xavier Martinez, and Harriet Dean
DuCasse: I was born s i x years a f t e r m
y parents [Elsie Whitaker and Xavier
Martinez] were married, so a great deal of t h e i r a c t i v i t i e s , the
more exciting time of t h e i r a c t i v i t y , was before I was born. Not
t h a t it d i d n ' t continue afterwards, but I think the greater
amount of i t was between t h e earthquake i n 1906, and 1913 when
I was born. That's when they were going t o Monterey f o r the Del
Monte shows, and things were still happening i n San Francisco.
The Bohemian group were s t i l l trying t o regroup and not
t e r r i b l y successful a t it, you know; i t was never the same a f t e r
the earthquake.
Riess: Had they always planned t o have a child?
DuCasse: Well, my mother t e l l s me t h a t she planned t o have twelve. Now,
where she got that idea I don't know, because she had had t o
r a i s e her siblings--her f i v e brothers and one sister--when she
was twelve and thirteen, and t h a t ' s a rough kind of a l i f e . Oh,
I know why she said i t ; now I remember. She said she wanted t o
have a child by each great c u l t u r a l race. That was her idea.
She s t a r t e d out with a Mexican, but she didn't get any further.
[laughing] She was a l i t t l e b i t too conservative f o r what t h a t
would e n t a i l !
Riess: I thought it was i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t she referred t o you, l a t e r on
i n your l i f e , a s ''one of those casual Mexicans with a touch of
the indolent Indian i n her too."
DuCasse: [laughing] That's what I was when I was a youngster, yes, and
when I was a teenager. I was extremely timid. I
. was a day
student a t the convent, but t h e convent l i f e was very protective.
Strangely enough, my mother was exceedingly protective too of
me, and I f e l t t h i s . I had a l o t of insecurity problems, so I
think t h a t ' s why she said that.
I was put i n t o a r t school a t the age of fourteen, among
students several years older. I was r e a l l y afraid of m
y own
shadow, but fortunately, being t h e professor's daughter, nobody
came near me, so I was very safe. I didn't have too many
friends a t f i r s t because they were a l l , you know, j u s t a l i t t l e
b i t i n awe of Marty and they weren't about t o come too close t o
h i s daughter. But f i n a l l y , of course, t h a t broke down; I became
more a t home.
And t h i s was strange because I had been used t o adults a l l
my l i f e and fascinating people, but I was q u i t e shy. And Harriet
Dean--or Pal, as I called her; I was the one who named h e r Pal--
she was the one t h a t was almost more a mother t o me than my own
mother, i n the physical sense. M
y mother was very restrained,
w a s very undemonstrative. I can remember the f i r s t time t h a t
she embraced and kissed me, and i t was when I was very much grown.
That was j u s t something t h a t never was done, i n the English
t r a d i t i o n , you know. I didn't m i s s i t consciously, but when P a l
came i n t o our l i f e , she was a very affectionate and outgoing
person, and I took t o her immediately.
When she f i r s t came t o t h e studio--I'd never gone near
anybody, I was very shy, I was three years old--I immediately
went and climbed up i n her lap. And, of course, she was
delighted because she loved children. W
e were friends from the
very start. She was the one I always went t o when I had my
problems o r troubles o r anything, i f I ever talked about them
a t a l l , which was rare. So t h a t brought a d i f f e r e n t whole
element i n t o my l i f e .
And t h a t ' s why I think my mother never thought about m
e a t
a l l , except i n a very detached way, you see. There was a great
detachment between us. Not u n t i l I w a s married--she had begun
t o mellow, and she was a very d i f f e r e n t kind of woman then, and
we had a very good relationship--it was a very d i f f e r e n t thing
entirely.
Riess: 	 Were there other children around here when you were growing up?
DuCasse: 	 Very few, very few, u n t i l I went t o school. There were two
g i r l s i n the neighborhood, but I didn't have much t o do with
them. They didn't l i v e too close. And then f i n a l l y more
DuCasse: 	 families with several children moved nearby, gradually, and t h i s
was I think a f t e r I came back from the t r i p t o Europe with
Mother i n 1923. Then more people began building here and moving
up and then there were more children. But r e a l l y m
y friends
were m
y school friends, and one of them I had a s a close friend
u n t i l she died j u s t a few years ago. So, you know, it was a
very d i f f e r e n t kind of upbringing.
Riess: 	 That t r i p toEurope, d i d M a r t y g o t o o ?
DuCasse: 	 NO, he didn't. That was when the break came, when my mother was 

able t o make the break with m
y father. See, I didn't know a l l 

t h i s ; I was too young t o know. Well, I sensed it. I mean I 

knew there was something wrong, but, you know, a child of nine 

i s not conscious of a l l the implications. 

But they were not having an easy time of i t a t a l l . And
t h i s t r i p t o Europe gave m
y mother the chance t o make t h a t break,
and when she came back she didn't come back t o t h i s house, she
came back t o P a l ' s and Virginia's house t h a t was down the road,
and that 's where we lived f o r the next seventeen years, before
we moved t o Carmel i n 1940. Between 1923 and 1940 we lived j u s t
a block down the road. In her reminiscence she speaks about
t h a t , and how we still took care of Marty and a l l . And I saw
him every day.
Actually, it was a perfect arrangement, a s it turned out,
because he was something of a loner, and j u s t the physical f a c t
of our not being i n the house a t night was no problem f o r him a t
a l l . He had u s when he needed us, always. He never f e l t that
there was any r i f t ; there was no problem a t all, because i t was
s o r t of agreeable t o both.
Riess: 	 But your mother doesn't sound l i k e she would be t h a t easy with
the whole thing.
DuCasse: 	 No, because, of course, l o t s was going on inside of her that -
I
was never aware of and I couldn't understand a t that time. I
never understood i t u n t i l I grew up myself and began having my
-
own problems. Then I understood a l o t more about her and, of
course, was then much more understanding of her too.
Riess: 	 When she t a l k s about you a s having a l i t t l e of the Mexican, a
l i t t l e of the Indian, i s t h a t a second-hand way of saying, "You're
j u s t l i k e your father?"
DuCasse: 	 Probably. I don't think she meant i t , though, i n a malicious
sense a t a l l . I think i t was a statement of f a c t . And t h i s was
i n a sense what she wanted; she married a Mexican and she assumed
DuCasse: t h a t t h a t child would be Mexican. She forgot t h a t it was going
t o be half British. [laughter] So I was never completely t h a t ,
but I favored more the Mexican.
I ' m very much l i k e m
y father, and the older I get the more
I think back and think, "Oh, watch yourself, now. That's j u s t
l i k e Marty." Marty was a wonderful person but he was a very
d i f f i c u l t person, s o I ' m trying t o curb some of those things
t h a t a r e a l i t t l e b i t too much l i k e the less admirable s i d e of
my father. But I am very much l i k e him.
Other people say I ' m l i k e m
y mother too. And I f e e l at
times I understand what they mean by that. I have ways, gestures,
even some speech a t times t h a t ' s amazingly l i k e her, and I never
was conscious of i t before, u n t i l I was much older.
Riess: How much encouragement did you get from Marty f o r your a r t ?
DuCasse: Well, of course, during m
y student years, t h e encouragement was
there, but he was extremely firm with me and s t r i c t with me
because he f e l t t h a t I had a l o t of t a l e n t and so he wasn't
giving me any quarter a t a l l . He was wonderful t o the students
t h a t t r i e d so hard but didn't have an awful l o t of t a l e n t ; he
would f a l l a l l over himself t o help them. But the good students,
he w a s s t e r n with us, you know, we r e a l l y had t o work.
He treated m
e very impersonally i n the classroom, very
impersonally, and he never s a i d too much t o me about l i k i n g
what I did, but I would hear it from other people. He would
boast about h i s daughter and her t a l e n t s and so forth. He
didn't say i t t o much t o me, but I knew i t was there.
Riess: I n your mother's interview, there i s a photograph of you i n a
dark o u t f i t . And did you have a long black braid?
DuCasse: I n my teens, a t t h e convent, I ' d say I w a s twelve, we got t h a t
notion t h a t everybody had t o grow t h e i r h a i r . I was the only
one t h a t persevered and went through a l l t h a t h o r r i b l e stage
where I had a l i t t l e paint brush i n back, and f i n a l l y i t became
long. Then I l e f t m
y h a i r long u n t i l I w a s married. But I very
often put it up i n two braids; a coronet over the head was t h e
e a s i e s t way t o get it out of the way. Finally I cut the h a i r ,
and once I cut it I never went back t o the long hair. [laughing]
I was too lazy. That was m
y Mexican laziness! It was too easy.
Riess: I wondered i f you had been dressed t o be Mexican.
DuCasse: Well, no. Strangely enough, I remember when I met Frida and
Diego [Rivera] i n San Francisco at a b i g exhibition. They were
both there, and, of course, they were friends of m
y f a t h e r ' s .
Frida was dressed i n a gorgeous costume, I think i t was a s
a Tehuana from Tehuantapec. And I said t o her, "Oh, I love that.
I wish t h a t I could wear something l i k e that," and she said, "But
you should be wearing it." You know, f o r her t h a t was j u s t a
foregone conclusion. And I didn't get around t o t h a t u n t i l much
l a t e r .
Riess: Your mother converted t o Catholicism i n 1937?
DuCasse: Right.
Riess: But you were i n the convent e a r l i e r .
DuCasse: I became a Catholic a t eight. That w a s i n 1920.
Riess: How did t h a t a l l happen? Why were you put i n the convent school?
DuCasse: M
y mother f e l t t h a t the convent education was the only education
f o r a woman, f o r a g i r l . She hated public school. She was not
well as a child and went t o school intermittently, had a brain,
and her father, of course, I ' m sure educated her. And her idea
of absolute horror was a public school.
So over m
y father 's objections, who was a n t i c l e r i c a l , having
been a Catholic once and l e f t i t , you know--the Latin men a r e
more a n t i c l e r i c a l than anyone--she said, "She is going t o Holy
Names College, t h a t ' s a l l there is t o it." So he had t o give in.
That was i n second grade.
I, of course, accepted everything t h a t they gave me. W
e
did our catechism lessons and learned a l l the prayers. I had
never known anything about r e l i g i o n a t a l l p r i o r t o t h a t time,
unless it came through the c u l t u r a l end of it, religious art and
so f o r t h , but I was learning the catechism. Then one day S i s t e r
asked me about m
y baptism, and I said, "But I ' v e never been
baptized." They checked the records. When my mother had gone
down*toput me i n the school, of course, she had t o f i l l i n a l l
these things. "Oh!" They were i n an absolute tizzy. Oh, they
couldn't have t h a t , you know; t h i s poor child is not baptized,
no, no, no.
So they called my mother, and she said, "Well, i f she wants
to be baptized, t h a t ' s f i n e with me, I don't mind', but what
should I do about i t ? " And they said, "Well, do you have any
Catholic friend who could be her godmother," and she said, "Oh,
I have a very dear Catholic friend, Josephine Ryan," who w a s t h e
DuCasse: 	 wife of Dan Ryan who was a well-known attorney i n San Francisco
a t t h e time, and they were good friends of Marty's and Mother's.
So she called Josephine, explained the s i t u a t i o n , and she said,
"Fine, I ' l l take care of it."
She found out what was the closest church, which was St.
Leo's down on Piedmont Avenue. It had j u s t been founded maybe
three or four years before, i t was a very new parish. She got
i n touch with a p r i e s t , they s e t the date, and I was baptized
on t h e eighth of December i n 1920. So t h a t was how i t came about.
It was a n a t u r a l thing f o r me because Catholics believe
t h a t i f you come from a Catholic family o r you have a parent who
is a Catholic, i t ' s l i k e a birthmark; t h a t mark of baptism on
the parent w i l l be an inclination i n the child. So it was a
natural thing f o r me, and being a Mexican too, half Mexican, I
responded t o a l l of t h a t , I loved it. M
y mother had no objection.
She was nothing, she 'd never been baptized.
Riess: 	 And y e t i n her o r a l history, when she t a l k s about the difference
between her Catholic s e l f and her non-Catholic s e l f , she t a l k s
of her Catholic s e l f a s a humane and loving kind of s e l f and
her non-Catholic s e l f a s skeptical, and i n t e l l e c t u a l l y independent.
So how did she f e e l about having you i n her midst? Because she
was s t i l l her skeptical s e l f then.
DuCasse: 	 It was not evidently something which she f e l t was a t h r e a t t o her;
t h e f a c t t h a t I wanted t o become a Catholic was j u s t fine. It's
amazing. Her i n t e l l e c t u a l i t y was very interesting. I used t o
have arguments with her about that. I would say, you know,
"You're such an i n t e l l i g e n t person, how can you have t h i s premise?"
o r something. W e had many arguments. [laughing] But I think
she f e l t t h a t i t was p a r t of m
y heritage, t h a t Mexicans w e r e
Catholics, so, you know, what was wrong with m
y being one? M
y
f a t h e r didn't l i k e t h e idea a t a l l , but he didn't put any objec-
t i o n s i n the way.
The strange p a r t was t h a t I became, naturally, a s a small
child l i k e t h a t , a very pious l i t t l e Catholic. Oh gracious! And
I ' m sure t h i s must have been a thorn i n t h e i r sides a t times.
[laughing] So I would r e t r e a t t o a corner when they were having
some wild bohemian jag, and I would go over my lessons and m
y
catechism while a l l t h i s was going on. [laughing]
You know, it was amazing. Talk about stubborn! (That's
what she said, you know, t h a t I was a stubborn Mexican.) And I
c e r t a i n l y survived a l l kinds of temptations, t h e r e ' s no doubt
about t h a t , which probably I never even noticed.
DuCasse: But t h a t was I think what s t a r t e d t h a t t o t a l change of my mother's
a t t i t u d e . The f a c t t h a t she became a warmer and a more affec-
tionate, a more loving person I think was certainly t h a t
Christianity t h a t she got. She a l s o was being influenced by Pal.
Remember when I said t h a t I don't remember her ever having
been affectionate t o me u n t i l many, many years l a t e r i n our
lives? When you brought t h a t up I suddenly realized t h a t probably
when t h a t s t a r t e d was a f t e r she became a Catholic and she began
t o have a t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t relationship with people because of
that.
Riess: Well, I should think t h a t it was l i k e having a new authority,
and her father and Marty had been the authority i n her l i f e .
DuCasse: Right, r i g h t . And many t i m e s she had disagreed with t h a t
authority, but the Church authority she never disagreed with.
I w i l l say f o r her t h a t it took her a long t i m e t o become a
Catholic, but when she and P a l were ready, they accepted it
completely without any question because they'd already gone
through such i n t e l l e c t u a l hurdles, numbers of hurdles, t h a t
they had r e a l l y dissipated any r e a l problems t h a t they might
have had with it. When they were ready t o accept it, they were
t o t a l l y ready t o accept it. And they never went back upon that.
And strangely enough, when they got t o Spengler, they had
a whole new world of thought opened up f o r them. Of course,
t h a t was before they became Catholics, but they claim t h a t
Spengler l e d them t o the Church, Oswald Spengler. Which was
very i n t e r e s t i n g because he was considered such a pessimist,
and y e t he showed them the greatness of Catholicism and how it
was the only religious culture f o r the western world; t h a t w a s
the western world's religion. I guess t h a t must have helped
them a tremendous amount.
Riess: Was there a kind of vogue of becoming Catholic a t t h a t time?
DuCasse: I believe so. I think it was because of [Jacques] G r i t a i n .
Many of the great French and German and Dutch thinkers, both
Protestant and Catholic, were r e a l l y s t i r r i n g up the intellec-
t u a l world, the thinking world.
Riess: You know, it was a l s o a period when a l o t of
becoming communists.
people were
DuCasse: Right, r i g h t . Well, evidently it was
thing, you know, whatever.
a need t o espouse some-
DuCasse: 	 And then I think the person--and I ' m sure Mother had t h a t i n her
book too--that r e a l l y helped them tremendously was Minna Berger,
who was the l i b r a r i a n a t the P a u l i s t Library i n San Francisco.
They met, and instantly there was rapport there. And Minna
was j u s t t h r i l l e d when she found these two extraordinary women
with t h e i r great enthusiasm and t h e i r mentality. She said,
"They've got t o be Catholics." [laughing] So she says, "Kai,
we're going t o work on them."
Well, she began pulling out a l l the b i g minds t h a t she knew
i n t h e Church, past and present, and she was connected with a
l o t of them, many of the great P a u l i s t s i n the East, and t h a t
had a great deal t o do with t h e i r being able t o come i n t o the
Church, because then she a l s o threw a l o t of books at them and
the best books and the f i n e s t things t h a t she could get ahold
of. And, of course, they a t e them up, they loved it.
Many of t h e great minds of the past t h a t she gave them t o
read were mentioned i n Spengler anyway because they were t h e
men t h a t had r e a l l y worked out Catholic philosophy and thought.
So they were then able t o accept t h e whole thing because t h e i r
background was so perfect; t h e i r non-Catholic background was
j u s t a perfect lead-in f o r it.
The i n t e r e s t i n g p a r t of i t was t h a t at t h a t time, when they
came i n t o the Church, though I had never l e f t the Church, I
f e l t that I was converted a l l over again because then I under-
stood it; a s an i n t e l l i g e n t , thinking adult I accepted it. Not
j u s t a s a pious child who took i t a l l by rote.
R i e s s : 	 You once explained t o m
e the difference between the g i f t of
f a i t h and not. And s o would you say t h a t a s a pious child it
w a s through f a i t h t h a t you entered?
DuCasse: 	 Yes, i t was. The baptism naturally does a great deal t o
strengthen t h a t and t o give you t h a t f a i t h . But now we r e a l i z e
t h a t every Catholic, every born Catholic-when you're born and
you're baptized a s a baby o r a s a small child--you s t i l l , when
you become a thinking, r a t i o n a l adult, you've got t o accept
it i n t e l l e c t u a l l y a s well a s j u s t from the f a i t h t h a t was always
there. You have t o make an absolute acceptance of it.
Riess: 	 So you had t h a t chance.
DuCasse: 	 That's when I did t h a t ; when P a l and E l s i e came i n t o the Church,
t h a t made the b i g difference. And even though I had thought I
wanted t o be a religious a r t i s t from the time I w a s a child, I
think then I realized what i t would mean t o be a religious
a r t i s t . I became much more serious about it.
Riess: 	 Were you l i v i n g with them i n Camel?
DuCasse: 	 Oh yes, yes. I didn't get married u n t i l 1944, so I w a s with 

them, yes, very much so, a t t h a t t i m e . 

Riess: 	 It sounds l i k e a very intense kind of upbringing t h a t you had.
DuCasse: 	 It was. When m
y mother became so ill and I knew t h a t probably
she wasn't going t o be with us much longer, I was thinking a
l o t about i t , and I thought, you know, she r e a l l y gave b i r t h t o
m
e three times. She gave b i r t h t o me physically. She gave
b i r t h t o m
e mentally, because she was always stimulating my
thinking-she directed m
y reading, I listened t o her and P a l
and t h e i r friends discussing things and s o f o r t h , and it was a
constant mental receptivity which they inspired i n me. And
then I f e l t t h a t she a l s o gave me the b i r t h of my t r u e Catholi-
cism, my r e a l f a i t h . She did a tremendous amount f o r me i n my
l i f e . J u s t amazing.
And she did t h a t f o r anyone who was a p a r t of m
y l i f e .
The friend t h a t ' s l i v i n g with m
e now, she and I were i n a r t
school together. W
e both had very much t h e same kind of back-
ground i n t h a t she was from an English background too. So
there was not a great deal of affection displayed i n the family,
a s i n my case. I n her family she was the a r t i s t , and though
they appreciated i t i n a sense, they weren't too encouraging.
But she wanted t o go t o a r t school, and they said, "Fine."
W
e were both kind of shy, and dedicated t o being a r t i s t s ,
and we became good friends. She's a -
very talented person, and
she was beautifully blonde, you know, typical English type, and
my father j u s t loved that. She w a s one of h i s favorite
students, so he was delighted a t our friendship. She told me
not too long ago t h a t one time he said, "Now, you j u s t take
care of Kai." [laughing] I guess he thought I needed somebody
t o look a f t e r me.
Now, what got m
e s t a r t e d on that?
Riess: 	 You were saying t h a t your mother gave s o much t o everyone.
DuCasse: 	 Oh, yes, t o Marian. Marian said t h a t she learned so much, j u s t
by l i s t e n i n g t o P a l and P e l l i e .
Also, at t h a t time, our household included Armando Valdes-
peza, who was a talented young Mexican who came t o t h i s country
a f t e r t h e 1927 revolution. H i s family were a r i s t o c r a t s , and
they were completely put down and t h e i r money and everything
was taken away from them. But the family scraped enough
DuCasse: 	 together t o send him up here f o r h i s education. He arrived i n
the Bay Area and someone sent him t o Piedmont High School
because there was a very f i n e a r t teacher, M r s . Sonnenschein,
there a t t h e time. She found t h a t t h i s poor boy, very sensi-
t i v e with very l i t t l e English, was so talented, and she got i n
touch with my f a t h e r and said, "Here's somebody t h a t you can
help. He r e a l l y needs your help."
He came up t o the studio, and I'll never forget the day he
came. He was a few years older than me, perhaps three o r four,
but s t i l l a youngster. And, oh, s o proper. He w a s s o t h r i l l e d
when he met Marty and Marty spoke t o him i n Spanish, and then
they j u s t had a wonderful time. He began coming t o see us, and
then finally--he didn't r e a l l y need the high school training, he
needed a r t school--Marty got h i m a scholarship a t A r t s and
Crafts, and he lived with us f o r two years. So he w a s l i k e a
brother t o me. It w a s wonderful. And he said t h a t t h a t exper-
ience of l i v i n g i n our home and being educated, mentally, by
m
y mother and P a l , was the greatest thing t h a t had ever happened
i n h i s l i f e .
He w a s an extraordinary a r t i s t . He went back t o Mexico
eventually, and got l o s t i n the world of the faded aristocrat--
many of them had come from Spain, and they lived t h i s crazy
kind of l i f e . [brief tape interruption a f t e r phone rings] He
loved, of course, t h a t world, couldn't help himself, and he loved
luxury, and instead of being willing t o have starved t o become
the great painter t h a t he could have been, he took the e a s i e r
path and he became very well known a s a dress designer. He had
a very up-to-date column i n one of the best of the Mexican
papers which kept track of a l l the fancy people and t h e i r
a c t i v i t i e s .
He had a wonderful l i f e , but there was always, I think, a
dichotomy within him; he knew that he had sacrificed something,
a great capacity he had which he had never f u l f i l l e d . So t h i s
w a s very hard f o r him. He came t o see us several times, and
there was always t h i s t r a g i c kind of turmoil within him. Of
course, you could do nothing f o r him because he had chosen and
there was nothing t o be done.
Riess: 	 Did you have the sense, as you were growing up, both Catholic
and an a r t i s t , t h a t there had t o be a kind of painful struggle?
DuCasse: 	 Actually, I didn't. That's interesting. Because even though
we didn't have money i n t h e accepted sense, w e had a very r i c h
l i f e , and we got along on very little. Our material needs were
not the most important needs. They were always taken care of,
they were taken care of very modestly, but the richness of our
DuCasse: 	 l i f e was a mental thing. I look back, and everybody says, "Oh,
the Depression was so t e r r i b l e , " I say, "Yes, we went through
the Depression, but i t was never sad."
Well, of course, we had a wonderful home, i n a beautiful
p a r t of the country. W
e were not down i n some poverty-stricken
area. It was a strange and unusual thing t h a t these poor
a r t i s t s happened t o s e t t l e themselves i n Camel and Piedmont,
two of the most plush kinds of places i n the whole country. And
here they had a l l of t h i s with very l i t t l e outlay. It was extra-
ordinary.
I didn't have t h a t feeling of the need f o r t h a t struggle,
strangely enough. And things came t o me. M
y f i r s t commission--
which we can t a l k about latter--I was asked, I d i d n ' t have t o go
and ask. So i t was a strange kiKd of thing. I don't know how
t o account for that.
The Religious A r t i s t ; Commission f o r t h e Franciscans
R i e s s : 	 Youdecidedthatyouwantedtobecome a r e l i g i o u s painter a t a
tender age.
DuCasse: 	 Yes, and then the religious a r t i s t t h a t I wanted t o become when
I was a child and went t o Europe a t nine and ten, was loving a l l
the great pictures of the past t h a t I saw, and, of course, of the
present too. Unfortunately, I had very bad t a s t e a s a small
child; gradually I got out of it, fortunately. I mean I took t o
a l l those t e r r i b l e things t h a t the Catholic A r t Forum stood
against [laughing] when I was l i t t l e because t h a t w a s what I was
given. But fortunately i t was counteracted by pictures of Giotto
and E l Greco on t h e walls of our home, which w e r e the a n t i t h e s i s
of t h e "holy picture" given us by the nuns.
I n school we were given l i t t l e holy cards f o r good behavior
o r i f w e got a lesson and s o forth. They were typical, l a t e
nineteenth-century Christian a r t , which was very saccharine, and
even not a s good a s some of the b e t t e r a r t i s t s of t h a t period
who w e r e doing t h i s kind of work; they were very shadowy copies
of them. Of course, I loved them, I loved them. I would bring
them home and my mother would be horrified, but she couldn't do
anything about it.
But there was t h i s counter-irritant, t h a t I was constantly
exposed t o great art, great r e l i g i o u s a r t , because the a r t i s t s
were great, not because i t was religious, you see. It was a
DuCasse: curious thing. That was always there. When we went t o Europe,
t h a t was foremost, seeing those works of a r t , seeing t h e
originals, going t o museums and churches, and the P a l a i s de
Pape i n Avignon, and so forth. It was an extraordinary exper-
ience f o r me. I was imbued with the r i g h t kind of t a s t e , but
I had t h a t strange, dual appreciation; I s t i l l didn't give up
m
y pious s i d e of art, but fortunately I didn't t r y t o express
i t too much t h a t way.
Riess: But what did you yourself paint?
DuCasse: Well, I did a l o t of drawings a s a child, and they were, I can
see, copies of things. Not l i t e r a l copies, but, you know, I
would do crucifixions o r I would do the Blessed Virgin Mary
and there would be angels around, and the usual childish s t y l e
a child would do. They were neither based upon the pious ones
completely, nor were they based upon, say, E l Greco completely.
The theme, the subje c t was uppermost .
Riess: You're almost saying t h a t you became an a r t i s t because becoming
a Catholic opened up such a r i c h kind of p i c t o r i a l world?
DuCasse: Yes, iconography. True. I think t h a t ' s q u i t e possible, q u i t e
possible, because I don't think I was doing those pictures
u n t i l a f t e r I ' d s t a r t e d convent school. So t h a t ' s probably
d e f i n i t e l y where I got t h e idea t h a t I would l i k e t o be a
painter, and then i f I was a painter, I would l i k e t o be a
religious painter.
But when I grew up and had my training and s t a r t e d seriously
thinking of t h a t , I wanted t o be a mural painter, because the
great r e l i g i o u s a r t , r e a l l y , of the past had been q u i t e often
murals, and the great painters of the present, even though I
was t e r r i b l y against t h e i r philosophy--. Oh heavens! Diego
Rivera being a communist, you know, I j u s t didn't l i k e t h a t a t
a l l , but I couldn't help but admire him a s a great artist, and
I wanted t o be a mural painter, t o do r e a l frescos. So t h a t ' s
when I went t o the a r t school i n San Francisco and took a summer
course with Victor Arnautoff, who had been, of course, Diego
Rivera's student.
Riess: Whendid y o u d o t h a t ?
DuCasse: That was i n 1938.
Then, I had always wanted t o do sculpture, but the
sculpture c l a s s a t the a r t school, Marty didn't approve of the
teacher--I've forgotten who it was--he j u s t didn't think he
DuCasse: 	 was any good, so he wouldn't l e t m
e take sculpture. But he was
a great friend of Ralph Stackpole's, who was then the head of
the sculpture department a t the San Francisco A r t I n s t i t u t e .
When I was over there t h a t summer with Victor Arnautoff, I
got t o know Ralph Stackpole. Well, we knew him a s a family
friend, but I mean I hadn't seen him f o r some time. And I said,
"Oh Ralph, I ' d love t o take your course.'' So that f a l l I
enrolled i n h i s course and loved it, and realized actually t h a t
t h a t was probably the kind of thing I should have done from the
beginning; I should have done something with m
y hands. I loved
it, and I did very well, and he was very pleased. He said,
"This is ridiculous f o r you t o be a painter; you should be a
sculptor." But it took me a long time t o l e a r n that.
, Let's see, t h a t was the f a l l of '38, and the spring of '39
t h e Franciscans wanted some decorations i n t h e i r l i b r a r y next
t o St. Boniface Church. And somehow, I can't remember now how,
they got m
y name, and they got i n touch with me. And t h a t was
the beginning; t h a t was m
y f i r s t formal mural. But it couldn't
be done a s a fresco because the room was a l i b r a r y and it was
already established; the best t h a t they could do was t o put a
s t r i p of canvas on the two walls t h a t I was t o do. So I had t o
do i t i n the t r a d i t i o n a l way and j u s t paint i t , you know, with
o i l .
But I i n s i s t e d , f o r m
y own learning, t o do a l l t h e prepara-
t i o n a s I would f o r a fresco. I did the cartoons i n sections.
I pounced the cartoons on t o the canvas. I wanted t o learn t o
do t h i s a s I had learned t h a t summer j u s t i n one panel. I
wanted t o learn how t o do i t , thinking, always hoping, t h a t I
would g e t a job t o do t h a t would be a r e a l fresco. I never did.
But t h a t was a marvelous learning situation.
And t h i s is something we should get i n the record. So
often we have asked others how was the church's a t t i t u d e toward
them a s a r t i s t s . It was interesting; I was going back through
some of t h i s material and a couple of a r t i c l e s t h a t had been
written about the job t h a t I had done, and i n both places they
mentioned t h e f a c t that I had evidently told them t h a t t h e
Franciscans only gave me the basic idea. They said, "You can
do i t the way you want it. Here is what we would l i k e t o have
you incorporate into your idea." I would go t o them f o r s p e c i f i c
information, s o t h a t I was getting the f a c t s correctly and so
f o r t h , but they never once t o l d m
e how t o do it. This was
remarkable.
T H E F R A N C I S C A N F A M I L Y
Left: The Poor Clare Nuns-the Second
Order-(left to right) Two nieces of St. Clem
-St. Agnes of AssisCSt. Clare, foundress of
the PoorClareder mother
aunt PacificbHer sister Beatric-San Dami-
n o . the first convent of Order in the back-
ground.
Gntral group: St. Francis surroundedby first mem-
be- of the Order of Friars Mino+ieft to right)
Bm-Gi'e-BrO.Angel*Bro. Francis
-Bm. Leo-Bro. Barbaro-Bro. Junipero-Bro.
Peter-In valley the hermitage of Gmccio, scene
firstchristrnas crit,-~iny of portiuncula
pft], contrasted mqnifiCent beSil*a Sen
rancescoin Assisi (right].
Right: The Third Order. (Left to right]. Blessed
Pica, mother of St. Franci-Blessed Luchesius
and his wife Bonadonna-Bartholemew the
bwyer-Pope IX St'
Francis-BLessed Franceschina of Gubbio-
St. Elizabeth of Hungary, patroness of Third
Order.
I-'
Q)
F R A N C I S C A N I S M T H R O U G H T H E C E N T U R I E S P
,
The Hob Spirit (the D
a
r
e
) &ershaa'ows the Franciscan, Order (the Shield)
which has vivified the world, influencing men in every walR of life.
Left: Men of Arts and Scienc-Palestrina,
famouscomposer-Ales~androVolta.~hysicist
and inventor'-Dante, poet-Michaelangelo
with dome of St. Peter's-Giotto and Leo-
nardo da Vinci, artists-Galilee, astronomer-
Roger Bacon, pathfinder i n experimental
science.
Central group: Mystics and Theologian-St. Igna-
tius Loyola, founder of the Society o f Jesus-
Thomas a Kernpis, who gave us the "Imitation of
Christm-Blessed John Duns Scotus. cham~ionof
the Immaculate Conceptio-St. ~onavent;re, the
Seraphic Doctor with his Cardinal's hat-His
teacher, Alexander of Hales.
Right: Men of Action-Fray Juan Perez and
Christopher Columbus, envisioning the New
World--Fray Junipero Serra. Apostle of Cali-
fornibst. ~~~~~i~
xavier,~ ~ ~
of the
dies-St. Thomas More. martvr ~ a t r o n
of
lawYek--The Cure $Ar;. 'bstle of
the Confessional-The Pope of Catholic Ac-
tion,piusXI-S~. john B ~ ~ ~ ~
blessed
fiend ,
,
f
youth.
.
t l ~
THE CARMEL PINE CONE-CYMBAL FRIDAY, APRIL 16, 1943
MICAELA MARTINEZ
/ -
By IRENEALEXANDER
Another Micaela Martinez mural will short-
ly be fitted into its permanent place on the li-
brary wall of the Philosophical Seminary of the
Western Province of the Franciscan Order at
Mission San Luis Rey.
It is interesting that its completion, and the
opportunity afforded Carmel to view the work
of this young artist should coincide with a na-
tionwide celebration of Pan-American Week, for
.Micaela Martinez, both in herself and in her
art, is uniquely expressive of the union,between
the two Americas. Through her veins rum the
mingled blood of the South American Indian,
the' colonial Spaniard and the North American
pioneer.
Born in San Francisco, daughter of the late
Xavier Martinez and Mrs. Elsie Whittaker Mar-
tinez, Micaela's education in the arts began lit-
erally in the cradle. Her bed was a little swing
that hung in the corner of her father's studio,
and he signalized her three months' birthday
by the purchase of a phonograph and three al-
bums of records. Her lullabies were the three
B's-Bach, Beethoven and Brahrns.
In an atmosphere of art and in M y con-
tact with the distinguished circle that Xavier
Marrinez drew to his studio, a group not only
engaged in creating bui in discussing the prin-
ciples of painting, music, drama and literature,
it is not surprising that Micaela began drawing
at the age of two. So eager was "Mary" to have
h
i
s daughter's talents develop naturally that
he interfered in no way with her earliest expres-
sion. It was not until she completed the eighth
grade, at 14, that her formal art study began.
- "
.--
To be sure, there was in the meanyhile a
year spent abroad, when she was nine years old,
during which her visits to galleries and mu-
seums (where she saw originals of paintings
already familiar to her), and especially to the
old-world cathedrals, left an indelible irnpres-
sion. In Paris Virginia Hale permitted her to
enter the Croquis-Collorosi classes, and since
Micaela was the only child admitted, let her
follow her own devices and refused to accept
pay for her lessons. In London, she was entranc-
ed with her introduction to the stylization of
ancient Egyptian art.
Xavier h4irtinez was Professor of Fine Arts
at the California College of Ates and Crafts in
Oakland then, and under his guidance Micaela
began at 14 the study of life drawing, still life
and portrait painting; with Hamilton Wolf she
studied perspective and anatomy--devoting four
years to an intensive groundwork in art. Later
she added theatrical design to her curriculum,
under Joseph Paget-Frederick, only pupil of
Leon Bakst.
By the time she graduated from art school
at 18, she' had determined to devote her talent
to religious subjects and complete her prepara-
tion for mural work She studied fresco for a
term at the California School of Fine A
r
t
s in
San Francisco, under Victor Arnautoff and spent
a year at sculpture with Ralph Stackpole, wiri-
ning a scholarship for the second term as one
of the two awards in the Press Club-4. F.
News contest growing out of the famous Ben-
iarnino Bufano-Westbrook Pegler dispute over
the former's stainless steel statue of St. Francis.
In spite of the fact that she was strongly urged
to make sculpture her medium, she clung ten-
aciously to her aim-that of ding her skill in .
this field to give greater depth and form to her
painting, and in setting her free from models.
Unlike many young artists, Micaela is both
conscious and clearly articulate about her ideals
as a painter. She has contributed.articles to the
Liturgical Arts Magazine expressive of what she
feels on the subject. "Art for art's sake" finds
no place in her concept. Art, she .maintains,
must be functional to endure. And she consid-,
ers the liturgical arts the most functional of
all, since they combine the reproduction of ma-
terial beauty with a deep philosophical concept
and a spiritual meaning. She believes that cul-
, ture is far more than the expression of a single
individual's talent-that it must rather express
the attainments and refinements of a people
or a social order.
So-called "Modern art" she finds too often
merely a narrow individual expression, saying
nothing except to the artist himself, and through
its dependence upon the moment's approval, be-
traying the painter into current fads and fash-
ions. Quite simply and frankly, she accepts the
Catholic liturgy as her major them- theme
which*she views as neither austere nor detach-
ed,but warm and rich and living.
In dedicating her talent to religious expres-
sion, Micaela Martinez has also dedicated her-
self to a profound study o
f the history of art in
'
all its epochs and to a study of the liturgy, both
subjectively and philosophically, particularly in
its artistic forms. It is part of her theory of the
function of an artist that she should take an
active part in all 'she hopes to express. She is
a member of the Liturgical A
r
t
s Guild and has
taken a prominent pare in the productions of
the Catholic Theatre Guild of San Francisco,
designing and helping to paint sets for "Pie in
the Sky" and "Brother Petroc's Renun."
Her first public commission was the paint-
ing of two large murals for the Franciscan Li-
brary adjoining the C
h
u
r
c
h of St. Boniface on
Golden Gate Avenue in San Francisco. Here
the canvasses, 25 x 4 and 30 x 4 feet, were at-
tached to the walls, a movable scaffold w
a
s
built, and the young &tist plied her brush for
six months while an interested public came and -
went. The library was dedicated by Archbishop
Mitty 06 February 11, 1940 and souvenirs of
the occasion were folders containing reproduc-
tions of the Martinez murals. Reproductions
also appeared in the Liturgical Am Magazine,
and called forth enthusiastic notice from such
critics as Frederick Mortimer Clapp, director of
the Frick Collection in New York and Walter
Pach, translator of Elie Faure's "History of Art."
The restoration of Mission San Luis Rey I
was in progress, and when the head of the li-
brary there viewed Micaela Martinez' work in
San Francisco, she was at once commissioned
to paint seven panels for the Philosophical
Seminaryat San Luis Rey.
She began work on aem here in Carmel in
October, 1940, and the newly completed panel
is the fourth in the series. The first, depicting the
three orders of the Francixans, measures 16 x
6, and was installed at San Luis Rey in October,
1941.The canvas is mounted on masonite build-
ing board, which comes in four-feet sections.
These are unbolted and the canvas cut with a
razor for transportation, then carefully fitted
together on the wall.
Since women are not pe.rmitted to enter the
cloister, Micaela's only opportunity to judge
the effect of the mounted panel was by invading
a pan of the garden open to the public and
peering through a window, somewhat discon-
certing the svdent seminarians who were en-
gaged in hoistiag it into place. Murals are des-
tined for all four of the walls, but there will
be a good third of the wall space quite out of
her lineof vision.
Two smaller panels, each 4 x 7 feet, were
completed ih February of 1942 and installed
.the following April. These were two monu-
mental figures of saints, portraying differing
approaches to the same philosophy. As repre-
sentative of the intellectual, cold, clear light of
reason, St. Thomas Aquinas, the mediaeval Do-
minican is contrasted with his contemporary
Franciscan, St. &n&entur< ex-
ponent of the mystical, emotion-
al approach to religion As Mi-
caela expresses it, one depicts the
love of philosophy, the other the
philosophy of love. In her treat-
ment of the two figures, Micaela
has adapted both line and color
to the inner meaning of her sub-
jects. St. Tho- Aquinas a p
pears in aii austere, symmetrical
composition against a backgzound
of pale yellows, greens, blacks
and whites, while there is swirl-
ing movement in the other and
rich, warm colors - the burnt
sienna of the Franciscan habit
surrounded by flame tones.
The panel just completed is one
of four, each measuring 12 x 6,
which will be mounted on the
I
two side walls of the library. It
represents Dun Scotus disputhg
with the opposing Dominicans the
doctrine of the Immaculate Con-
# ception. Its background is the
, University of P
a
r
i
s in the 13th
Century: and required a month of
, intensive resetmh to ensure the
accuracy of its details. Micaela is
indefatigable in her research, and
inspires those around her to en-
gage in checking up on her au-
thenticity.
, It was Bplno Adriani who dis-
covered among his rare coIlec?ion
' of books a review of the 13th
I Century P
a
r
i
s skyline which is
glimpsed through a window of
the mural's bac&ground. Models
she takes whep she finds them-
and many a friend is ~pcognizable
among the multitude listening to
i the learned dispute.
Three more large panels rp.
main to be painted -about nine
months' study and actual work,
all of which will be done iq the
white house on Cannel Point.
Father Juniper0 Serra comes
' next, and his great mission system
--a subject which Micaela plans
to treat abstractly. The third
e e l will depict Roger - Bacon,
father o
f experimental science.
T
h
e fourth has for .its ' theme
Father Luke Wadding, eminent
Franciscan scholarand philosopher
of the 17th Century, head of the
Franciscan House of Studies in
Rome. Althcugh the heads of the
Philosophical Seminary at San
L
u
i
s Rey suggested the general
subject they desired for all of
these murals, Micaela has been
-allowed free rein i
n both concep-
tion and composition. They have
advised in such matters as eccle-
siastical but everything
. . to art haq been left
completely in lpr hands.
How *capablethose young hands
have proved themselves is well
demonstmted by this new mural,
a reproduction of which may be
found on page 1of the Pine Cone
Qmbal of this issue.
- . - .
I
DuCasse: 	 Maybe i t was because Franciscans a r e t h a t way. Franciscans
a r e r e a l l y humble people; they've never l o s t t h a t quality from
t h e i r founder. And they hired a professional t o do t h e i r job,
and they gave m
e the c r e d i t f o r knowing how t o do it, which
was marvelous, so t h a t I had a f r e e hand.
Of course, I consulted and I made m
y detailed sketches and
everything,.so they knew exactly what they were going t o have,
but they never t o l d m
e how t o do it.
Riess: 	 Whodidyouactuallyworkwiththere?
DuCasse: 	 It was Father Paul Meinicke. He i s no longer a Franciscan;
he l e f t the order not long a f t e r the mural was completed. He
had some physical problems and s o f o r t h and f i n a l l y l e f t . He's
a p r i e s t over i n Nevada, i f he's still with us. The other
p r i e s t was h i s good friend Father Brendan Mitchell, who l a t e r
became, and I think he s t i l l is, e d i t o r of The Way, a l i t t l e
magazine t h a t the Franciscans publish here on t h e coast.
And they were very interesting. W
e used t o c a l l them David
and Jonathan because Father Brendan was a huge, big man, heavy,
and Father Paulwas l i t t l e and slender, and they were j u s t
wonderful, good friends. They w e r e the ones t h a t encouraged
me, and we talked over the idea f o r the two t o t a l subjects, and
w
e j u s t had a wonderful time together, and they backed me up.
What was i n t e r e s t i n g was t h a t I worked on those murals
while the l i b r a r y was open. I had a l i t t l e movable stand t h a t
I used t o g e t up on and do t h e work. And, of course, there were
j u s t crowds of people i n and out of the l i b r a r y every once i n a
while, on Saturdays and Sundays. They would a l l come and have
t o s e e what I was doing, and ask m
e questions and so forth, which
was fun, which was interesting.
One d e l i g h t f u l thing happened. A man came i n and sat down
and watched m
e f o r a while, and I was putting the basic drawing
i n of the church a t A s s i s i , i t j u s t happened I was working on
that. And i t was way up i n the background, and, of course, it
was i n perspective, and t h i s man kept looking at me, and he
said, ' l o u r perspective's wrong."
I said, "Well, do you know about perspective?"
He said, 'hies, I do."
I said, "Okay, w i l l you work i t out f o r me? 1'd be
delighted. I f I'mwrong, I want t o be corrected."
DuCasse: 	 So he worked out t h i s very d e t a i l e d drawing, we took it up and
put i t r i g h t up with mine, and i t was exactly t h e same.
[laughing] What he had not accounted f o r , you see, was t h e f a c t
t h a t when he was s i t t i n g down and looking up, evidently, it
looked d i s t o r t e d t o him.
So these a r e some of the funny l i t t l e things t h a t happened
t o me i n t h e l i b r a r y . But it was a wonderful learning process
because even though I couldn't use t r u e fresco, I learned a
great deal about keeping t h e wall i n t a c t , not going i n t o it too
deeply with perspective, t h e r e were only c e r t a i n things you had
t o think about i n perspective, but keeping it r e a l l y a decorative
work, composition-wise.
Riess : 	 Is t h a t work s t i l l there?
DuCasse: 	 Y e s . It i s now known a s t h e Marian Library.
That was done i n 1939-1940. It was dedicated by Archbishop
Mitty. It was dedicated on February eleventh, t h e Feast of Our
Lady of Lourdes, i n t e r e s t i n g l y enough. I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e t h a t ,
and I guess t h a t was i n '41 probably. It took a year and a half
t o do t h a t whole thing.
Then t h e Franciscans were very intrigued, and one of t h e i r
members came up from San Luis Rey. Father Oliver Lynch, O.F.M.,
was the head of San Luis Rey Mission, and he saw t h e l i b r a r y .
They had t h e theological seminary a t San Luis Rey and they wanted
murals on t h e i r walls above t h e i r l i b r a r y books. So t h a t was my
second commission, and I s t a r t e d working on t h a t , and t h a t was
when we had moved t o Carmel, i n 1940.
I s e t up m
y wall. I d i d them i n separate panels. The
l a r g e r one was three panels of four-by-six masonite, which were
reinforced i n t h e back, and then where t h e two met were screws
t h a t went through, s o they could be locked together, but they
could be unlocked and delivered, you know, i n a more concise
package. I worked on those i n Carmel during those prewar years,
i n 1941-43.
Riess: 	 I want t o stop and quiz you f o r a minute. Could you have been
an a r t i s t -
and a nun?
DuCasse: 	 A t one point, I think, a s a c h i l d , I thought I wanted t o be a
nun; most impressionable g i r l s i n a convent go through t h a t
stage where t h a t ' s kind of an accepted thing. Once I got my
t r a i n i n g i n a r t school and began t o work a c t u a l l y , you know, on
these plans, I realized t h a t t h a t would be very d i f f i c u l t .
Illuminating manuscripts and things of t h a t kind, you could do
DuCasse: that i n the peace and quiet of a c l o i s t e r . But t o do murals,
you have t o be f r e e t o go. And a t t h a t t i m e , very few nuns
were able t o go out and do things; you see, t h i s was pre-
Council.
Carmel: Plans f o r a
Music i n the Mission
Catholic A r t Center, and
Riess: Why did yourmother and P a l d e c i d e t o move t o Carmel?
DuCasse: Well, they wanted t o go back t o Carmel because they loved the
Mission; t h a t was t h e i r birthplace a s Christians, as Catholics.
[brief tape interruption a f t e r phone rings]
In t h e meantime, they had been i n Indianapolis v i s i t i n g
P a l ' s mother there--this was probably i n '39--and they wanted
t o found a Catholic c u l t u r a l center. (They would l i k e t o have
had i t i n Carmel, but they hadn't r e a l l y gotten down there f o r
a long time enough t o explore the p o s s i b i l i t i e s . )
So Pal got t o know about the chancellor. He evidently was
from an Indianapolis family t h a t were known t o her family. There
was some reason why, and I can't remember the l i t t l e connection,
but she went t o him. Charming gentleman. He had the three of us
i n h i s o f f i c e , we had q u i t e a long t a l k , and he said, "If you
w i l l s e t t l e here, I can get you a l l the funding i n t h e world.
This i s the kind of thing that we would love t o back i n t h i s
community. ''
Riess : The chancellor?
DuCasse: Of the archdiocese of Indianapolis, the Catholic archdiocese.
Excuse me, I should have made t h a t more clear.
Well, P a l had an abhorrence of Indianapolis from a very
unhappy childhood there and so forth, so she said, "No, no. "
She didn't say t h a t r i g h t t o him, but when we got out, she said,
'I
Never, never. I ' m never going t o do anything here. I t ' s got
t o be the Mission."
But t h i s chancellor said t o us, "There is a very famous
a r t i s t , monk, down a t St. Meinrad's Abbey1'--which was i n southern
Indiana--"Dom Gregory DeWit. You should go and see him because
he has j u s t completed a huge mural i n the apse of the church,
and he is looking f o r something e l s e t o do.''
DuCasse: 	 Well, we got down there a s f a s t a s we could. W
e made an appoint-
ment t o see him through the chancellor, who did t h a t a l l f o r us,
and w e drove down. It was beautiful country. Ah! t h a t was the
most wonderful v i s i t . Of course, I had always loved the Bene-
dictines, and so t h i s was when I f i r s t began t o r e a l i z e what the
Benedictines could perhaps do f o r an a r t i s t , though t h i s was a
farming community; they were not an a r t i s t i c community, they
were a farming community.
But Dom Gregory was delightful, a r e a l character, and, of
course, P a l and P e l l i e and he j u s t got along beautifully. He
took us a l l over, showed us the whole place. It was so funny
because he'd have t o t r y t o remember when it was c l o i s t e r s so
we wouldn't get i n there. A delightful man, Dutch, you know,
and f u l l of humor.
W
e were royally entertained, they gave us a beautiful meal,
and my mother f e l l i n love with the bread, which the monks made.
Oh! The bread cook came i n t o meet her. He said, "I w i l l send
back bread with you," so he came a s we were leaving, and we had
these two loaves t h a t were a t l e a s t three f e e t long, the
monastery loaves of bread. M
y mother went out with one under
each arm. [laughter]
And w e got Father Gregory t o consent t o come out t o Cali-
fornia. Of course, he was j u s t delighted. H e thought he was
going t o g e t some b i g jobs out there. That didn't materialize.
But t h a t s o l i d i f i e d t h e i r idea t h a t t h i s c u l t u r a l center had t o
be i n C a r m e l , and they thought t h a t maybe Dom Gregory could be
p a r t of it.
Riess: 	 Is t h a t work a t St. Meinrad's considered t o be modern?
DuCasse: 	 Yes, i t is modern, but i t ' s Byzantine. And t h a t was the same .
form t h a t Del Lederle--who was a l a t e r a r t i s t here, who we'll
t a l k about--used. I don't know why the artists of t h a t period
harked back t o the Byzantine. I think i t ' s because they were
trying t o get away from the realism of t h e l a t e nineteenth-
century religious art, which was extremely saccharine. So they
went back t o t h a t which was semi-abstract; i t was a s abstract a s
they could get a t t h a t point.
Not only that, but I think Dom Gregory had trained a t
Beuron, i n Germany. They were one of the foremost painting
abbeys i n Europe a t the, time. And they had a very r i g i d s t y l e ,
t h e i r own s t y l e . I n f a c t the name of the abbey, Beuron, became
the name f o r t h a t s t y l e . He had trained with them, but he had
kind of broken away from i t because he was not s e t i n any of
h i s ways. Even a s a monk, he was a wandering monk, he never
DuCasse:
Riess :
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stayed i n any one place. So he was able t o break himself away
from that, but t h a t ' s where he had trained. It was more leaning
toward t h e Byzantine than any other form. That's why he painted
the way he did.
Now, t e l l me what happened when he came out t o California.
Okay, he came out t o California a f t e r we had moved t o Carmel i n
1940, and he stayed with us. You see, we had that l i t t l e back
studio, a separate building. So we fixed t h a t up f o r him so
t h a t he could l i v e a s a monk there. And i t was so delightful.
Maybe Mother said t h a t i n her reminiscences. He pretended
t h a t t h i s was s o r t of l i k e a monastery. W
e said t h a t he was the
abbot, and P a l was the p r i o r , and Mother--What was Mother? She
had a very special job there. But anyway, I was the novice.
[laughing] So he ran our establishment a s a monastery while he
was with us, or t r i e d to. [laughing] It was a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t
because P a l and P e l l i e were not t o be trapped i n quite so much
of that. But i t was a fun thing.
And what was the Catholic community t h a t you were joining i n
Carmel?
That was the Carmel Mission parish.
There were a l o t of converts, weren't there3
Quite a few converts.
The same kind of i n t e l l e c t u a l o r a r t y people?
Well, many of them came down i n the summers. Not a l l of them
were l i v i n g there a l l year round. But several of them would come
i n the summers, l i k e James Haggerty from St. Mary's College, a
philosopher and theologian, an extraordinary man, who became a
very great friend. And others, of course, came through Camel,
you see. So there was a tremendous amount of i n t e l l e c t u a l
ferment. Of course, Noel Sullivan and h i s group, naturally,
and -
he brought so many people i n t o it.
That's why I think P a l and P e l l i e f e l t t h a t t h i s was a
perfect place f o r t h i s kind of thing t o happen. They could draw
upon people from a l l over the world t h a t came through. They
could draw upon the people t h a t were there a s well.
So they talked i t up, and t h e pastor, Father O'Connell--
who was a good friend of t h e i r s by t h i s time--well, he was a l l
f o r i t , of course, but money, t h i s was the problem, how t o get
the money. And t h i s was the one thing t h a t w a s very d i f f i c u l t
t o do.
Riess: 	 Was Harry Downie on the scene then?
DuCasse: 	 Oh yes, yes, definitely. You see, he was P a l and P e l l i e ' s god-
father. So he was very much i n favor of what they wanted t o do,
but I think he was a l i t t l e tongue i n cheek, he was so concerned
with the Mission restoration, which was a long, long job, as
you know, it took him many, many years. That was foremost. And,
oh sure, you know, he was encouraging. He said, "Oh, i f you can
do i t , fine."
But there were other elements involved. They thought D
o
m
Gregory could be the spearhead o r the director o r whatever, but
he was not r e a l l y capable of being t h a t ; he w a s an a r t i s t ,
s t r i c t l y an a r t i s t , and he didn't r e a l l y want t o be t i e d down t o
that. Finally he left--he wasn't there f o r more than maybe s i x
months o r so--and went back t o an abbey i n Louisiana that wanted
an a r t i s t t o do some work f o r them.
They hated t o give up t h e idea, but what it eventually
turned into, m
y mother became president of the National Council
of Catholic Women, of which a l s o a p a r t was the a l t a r society of
Camel Mission, and she and P a l did a l o t f o r them i n getting
a l l these l i t t l e pious l a d i e s t o begin t o think about Catholic
culture. They talked about Catholic art, they talked about the
need f o r good Catholic a r t i n other churches. Here they had the
best example, t h e Camel Mission, which was f i l l e d with beautiful
t r a d i t i o n a l and f i n e art, but so many other churches were j u s t ,
you know, bland and had only the pious, late-nineteenth-century
kind of a r t .
They s t a r t e d , you see, t h i s idea, and they began a s e r i e s
of exhibits of shrines. Harry made some, I made some, and other
people did. W e t r i e d t o show how they could bring good Catholic
a r t i n t o t h e i r homes. Here they had t h e great example of the
Mission period of Spanish Baroque art, i n good t a s t e .
Riess: 	 And the shrine was f o r the home?
DuCasse: 	 Y e s .
And we had exhibits which we took a l l over the deanery--
they called i t a deanery, the dioceses of Monterey-Fresno a t
t h a t time. W
e would go t o the d i f f e r e n t groups of a l t a r
societies, and P a l o r P e l l i e would l e c t u r e on a l l of t h i s , and
we would take our exhibit of shrines and put them up and show
them.
So t h i s was r e a l l y an incipient education i n good Catholic
a r t , a s o r t of beginning of t h e l i t u r g i c a l idea, where art--not
only i n the home, but i n the church--should r e a l l y be something
which is p a r t of the Catholic's outlook on l i f e .
Riess :
DuCasse:
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DuCasse:
Would you, i f you were t o go back and look a t t h a t now, think
t h a t it was good Catholic a r t ?
-
Yes, I would. Because we used only the best materials, unusual
and i n t e r e s t i n g materials. W
e used good a r t . Some of it was
actually made. I made several shrines. Harry would make the
wooden environment f o r the shrine. And everything was done with
the best t a s t e possible. And even though we used some contem-
porary things, they were good contemporary art--because there
was some good contemporary a r t s t a r t i n g t o come, from Europe,
from New York.
But it seems t o me t h a t when you s t a r t working i n t h a t s c a l e
t h a t you r e a l l y a r e running a great danger of getting i n t o
kitsch.
Absolutely. But, see, P a l and P e l l i e would never have allowed
t h a t , nor would Harry. Harry had very high t a s t e i n a r t , even
though it was the t r a d i t i o n a l a r t of the Mission Period and of
the Spanish legacy; still, you know, he wanted good contemporary
a r t , and he did have it. He had me do a s e t of s t a t i o n s , and
he had Mark Adams do a s e t of s t a t i o n s , and things of t h a t kind.
He was w i l l i n g t o work with contemporary a r t i s t s .
The only thing, when we did things f o r the Mission, o r
missions, they had t o be i n t h e s p i r i t of the Mission Period.
Mark Adams's s e r i e s were amazing because they were contemporary
i n one sense, but they had t h a t naivete of the mission Indian
who would do t h e work i n the early Mission Period. It was
amazing; he was able t o evoke t h a t s p i r i t .
I couldn't do t h a t , I was already too highly trained with
m
y tools a s an a r t i s t and with m
y mental approach. I could not
r e a l l y break down and do something primitive. I could do it i n
the semiprimitive Spanish way t h a t I did f o r t h a t s e r i e s of
s t a t i o n s f o r San Antonio Mission, which a r e done very much l i k e
the Spanish.
When did Joan Morris a r r i v e i n your l i f e ?
I ' m trying t o think i f t h a t was before I was married o r a f t e r .
I ' m sure it was i n the e a r l y f o r t i e s t h a t she must have come.
[ r e f e r s t o materials]
Here's a l e t t e r of hers from 1950.
It must have been l a t e f o r t i e s and e a r l y f i f t i e s , probably.
Riess: [referring t o materials] H e r e i s Joan writing and asking about
whether Pal and P e l l i e have given up the idea of forming a
Catholic A r t Center i n Carmel. She, of course, had her own
particular thing, which was the International Society of Sacred
A r t , and the Damascene Studios, the animated a r t studio. Did
any of it materialize?
DuCasse: No, not i n Carmel. They had t o give up t h a t all-over plan of a
r e a l center. What they did was t o bring, t o encourage people
l i k e Joan Morris--. Now, I don't know whether she ever gave
any lecture while she was i n Carmel, that I can't remember.
Because, you see, that was i n the' l a t e f o r t i e s , early f i f t i e s ,
and I was already not l i v i n g i n Carmel. I had married i n '44,
and i n '46, when Ralph mustered out of the army, we took over
the place here i n Piedmont and I lived up here. W
e went t o
Camel from time t o time, but I was not involved a s much with
what they were doing then. That's why that p a r t ' s a l i t t l e b i t
hazy f o r me.
But along with the shrine thing, t h e other thing t h a t Pal
and P e l l i e had always wanted was t o have Baroque period music i n
the Mission. To t e l l you the t r u t h , they were. not t e r r i b l y
happy with Noel Sullivan's music. It was good, but they f e l t
t h a t he used a l o t of contemporary works.
Riess: He was i n charge of music f o r the Mission?
DuCasse: For the Mission. He directed the choir and played the organ.
What they had was t h a t idea of what they had experienced i n
Paris when they were there i n 1922. Even though they were not
Catholics, they 1oved.great church music; t h a t was p a r t of the
culture of Europe. Every Sunday we went t o m a s s , and we would
go t o whatever church was having e i t h e r a great choral concert
on organ concert. Bonnet was the organist a t St. Sulpice, and
we would go and hear him play. I think i t was St. Gervais t h a t
was over near Les Halles, and t h a t was where they had great
choral music a s well a s other kinds of religious music. So Pal
and P e l l i e loved great church music, the Gregorian chants, they
loved Palestrina, the whole thing.
Through Minna Berger and the Paulists, of course, they knew
about Father Finn, the great Paulist choir director of t h e i r big
church i n New York, St. Paul's i n New York. He was well known
throughout the country, and I think h i s group had given concerts
a t d i f f e r e n t places. And one of h i s s t a r performers, when he w a s
a boy, was Milton Cross, who was the well known Metropolitan
Opera commentator on the Saturday radio broadcasts.
DuCasse: 	 Well, it seems t h a t Father Finn was not very well, and the doctor
said he had t o get away from h i s work,.get out, do something
e l s e , j u s t go someplace. So he was invited t o come t o Carmel.
And when he was feeling b e t t e r , they said, "You know, Father,
our greatest dream has been t o have a great concert of Palestrina
and Vivaldi, a l l of those men of t h a t period, & t h e Carmel
Mission, because t h a t would be the proper music f o r the Mission.
You can imagine how Noel Sullivan liked t h a t ; oh, h i s nose
was out of joint. Well, Father j u s t loved t h e idea. He got a
group of l o c a l people, people who were working i n the Bach
F e s t i v a l and who were singing i n t h e Mission. He got t h i s
group together and whipped them up, and they gave t h i s magnifi-
cent Renaissance music concert i n the Mission, and i t was, of
course, a tremendous success. Oh! you can imagine-that music
i n t h a t Mission! And what he did with those l o c a l people, how
he was able t o bring t h a t music out of them! I ' v e forgotten
how long it took him t o do it.
I n the meantime he was staying with u s again, out i n the
l i t t l e back cottage, and he did a great deal f o r P a l and P e l l i e
because he encouraged them so much i n what they were doing.
They knew they were not going t o be able t o do t h i s permanently,
but they were going t o t r y t o do things from t i m e t o time t h a t
would bring some of t h i s greatness back t o t h e Mission which
they loved so dearly.
Riess: 	 Was Noel Sullivan i n general estranged from P a l and P e l l i e ?
DuCasse: 	 No, strangely enough he f i n a l l y r a l l i e d a t the end, and came
t o the concert and enjoyed i t , but I think he f e l t i t was an
a f f r o n t t o him. It r e a l l y wasn't, they didn't mean it personally
but it was j u s t a touchy situation.
They were adamant because they f e l t t h a t t h i s i s what
should be i n t h a t Mission. And, of course; they knew t h a t he
couldn't keep up t h i s kind of thing a l l t h e time--you couldn't
possibly do that. Finally I think Noel understood t h a t it was
not a c r i t i c i s m of him particularly. Everyone should find out
what Renaissance music could be inside the Mission. And t h e
Bach Festival-of course, the Bach B Minor Mass was always given
i n t h e Mission, which was so marvelous a s e t t i n g f o r it.
Riess: 	 And what about t h e i r connection with E f f i e Fortune?
DuCasse: 	 Well, my mother and father, of course, both had known Effie.
She was not only i n Carmel, but she was an a c t i v e a r t i s t during
t h e Panama-Pacific Exposition. So, of course, they knew her,
you see, from that time. And m
y mother had heard t h a t E f f i e
was a l i t u r g i c a l a r t i s t .
DuCasse:
Riess :
DuCasse:
Riess :
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DuCasse:
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DuCasse:
Now, here i s where we get the r e a l l i t u r g i c a l a r t , because she
was doing things f o r the a c t u a l Church, the mass and s o forth.
And a l s o we had come t o know Father John Meehan, who w a s active
i n San Francisco. He was a great friend of Effie's. They were
both doing a p a r a l l e l job a t the time, he i n San Francisco and
she down i n Monterey, of trying t o r a i s e the t a s t e of a r t f o r
the Church. They were r e a l l y t h e pioneers, the spearhead.
But t h i s was actually l i t u r g i c a l ?
Primarily l i t u r g i c a l a r t , because Father Meehan, you see,
designed vestments and chalices and so f o r t h primarily, and
also I think probably decorated churches. But it was geared
t o the l i t u r g i c a l function. The a r t . - t h a twould encompass t h a t
would e i t h e r be f o r a c t u a l use--the vessels, a l t a r , what have
you--but a l s o decoratively, what would be a s a decorative a r t .
Liturgical means i t ' s i n the service of the mass.
I n service of the liturgy.
~ n d
so the home shrine, then, is only religious a r t ?
That's religious a r t , right. But i t was a s o r t of a bridge t o
t r y t o get t h e Catholic t o improve h i s t a s t e s so t h a t he would
notice the discrepancy between what was great and what was not.
When P e l l i e and P a l and I were going t o Carmel i n the
t h i r t i e s and she found out t h a t E f f i e was doing t h i s , had the
Monterey Guild, and here I was preparing myself t o be a l i t u r g i c a l
a r t i s t , she thought, well, t h i s would be the person t o go to.
So we made an appointment and went t o see her, and Effie'was nice,
but she was Effie. And we soon found out t h a t she didn't want
any other painter i n t h e Monterey Guild; shewas the painter, and
she had, f o r other areas, these other craftsmen. She was nice
but noncommittal and gave me the p o l i t e brush-off. M
y mother was
very i r a t e a t t h a t afterwards.
Well, maybe i f you had gone by yourself and didn't have your
mother and so on with you?
Maybe, but I don't think so, no. I think E f f i e was being honest
i n a way. She did not want anybody else. She did a l l the
painting t h a t was necessary, and what l i t t l e painting was done
was enough f o r one a r t i s t , you know, she didn't need anybody
e l s e t o do it. She did need sculptors, and I wasn't doing any
sculpture a t t h a t time. And metalsmiths, woodworkers and f a b r i c
constructions, you see. So t h a t never came t o anything.
DuCasse: I never held i t against her. I understood that. To me she was
doing a great work, there j u s t was no place f o r me i n it. So
t h a t was t h a t . I j u s t went on m
y own and did what came my way.
Riess: About Joan Morris, i s she significant?
DuCasse: She was s i g n i f i c a n t i n that she was well known i n England. I
don't know how much actual l i t u r g i c a l a r t she did, but she was
one of the people from Europe who came t o t h i s country trying
t o get i n t e r e s t i n contemporary a r t f o r the church, which is,
of course, what P a l and P e l l i e were trying t o do t o o i n Camel.
Advocates f o r Liturgical A r t s ; Liturgical Arts Magazine
Riess: I n 1950, when you were j u s t about t o s t a r t the Catholic A r t Forum,
her idea was, and I'd l i k e your comments on i t [reading]:
I want t o build an animated cartoon studio, even though
we may do.church building a s well. An animated a r t
studio gives an o u t l e t t o the work of many a r t i s t s
a t once, and s o gives a reason f o r a r t i s t s gathering
together without there being too much competition
between them t h a t leads t o professional jealousy and
would upset any a r t group. There must be normal
o u t l e t t o a r t i s t s ' work, and church work w i l l never
give t h a t , and so a Catholic studio f o r animated
films is t h e one thing t h a t would gather a r t i s t s
peacefully, o r more or l e s s peacefully, together.
DuCasse: I think t h a t she is influenced there, very d e f i n i t e l y , by Eric
G i l l . Eric G i l l was the great English stonecutter and sculptor.
He was still l i v i n g a t t h a t t i m e I ' m p r e t t y sure. I have h i s
autobiography, published i n 1941. He t r i e d t o e s t a b l i s h
communes f o r a r t i s t s . It never worked, but I think t h a t ' s
where she got t h i s idea, where they would a l l l i v e i n the
perfect ambience f o r c r e a t i v i t y , not only a s Christians but
a s a r t i s t s . I ' m pretty sure t h a t ' s where she got the idea.
Eric G i l l was the one par excellence a t t h a t time.
I never had much t o do with Joan because she f l i t t e d i n
and out, and she was here and there, and she traveled a l l over
the country.
Another person from the East who had e f f e c t s a l l over the
country i n various ways was Ada Bethune. She was from the East
Coast. I always s o r t of associated her i n m
y mind with Joan;
DuCasse: I ' m sure they knew each other. She was--I shouldn't say "was,"
she may s t i l l be, I think we're probably about t h e same age--
she was trying t o produce good Christian a r t and l i t u r g i c a l
a r t on t h e East Coast, before we got t h e message here. You
know, everything takes time. There's t h a t l a g between Europe
and the East Coast, then between t h e East Coast and t h e West
Coast; you know.
So she came out. You see her i n t h e Liturgical A r t s
Magazine a great deal. She was a good friend of Maurice
Lavanoux. W
e haven't talked about Maurice, but he came out
and saw my work and published one of these i n here. [showing
materials] I t ' s i n t h i s one.
Riess: Y e s , he founded t h a t magazine?
DuCasse: Yes. It was very interesting. I found t h e copy of the letter
I wrote t o him. I thought t h a t t h e L i t u r g i c a l Arts, the associ-
a t i o n and t h e magazine, were a very busy kind of thing. I
thought t h a t t h e L i t u r g i c a l A r t s Guild was very active. It
turned out t h a t i t was j u s t Maurice Lavanoux and a few backers
t h a t backed him. So he was it, t h a t was it, you see.
That's an e x t r a copy which you can take with you. That
material i s a l l material t h a t might be of i n t e r e s t t o you.
Riess : Good. A l l r i g h t .
DuCasse: Of course, Minna, there again, introduced us t o t h i s . She knew
Maurice Lavanoux. I subscribed t o the magazine, and I see some
of the earlier copies a r e 1932, 1933. So, you see, I got it
f a i r l y early.
Riess: Y e s , I see Volume 8 i s 1940, so I guess i t s t a r t e d i n 1932.
DuCasse: I wrote t o him and told him about the work t h a t I was doing. He
used t o t r a v e l around t h e country, and I said, ''When you're on
the West Coast, would you let us know? I would l i k e t o have
you come and see m
y work." He wrote back and said, "I'd be
delighted." So he did. H e came t o see m
y work and he was very
complimentary, and t h a t ' s why he had t h a t published i n the
magazine. [Mural by Micaela Martinez i n the Franciscan Library,
San Francisco, i n Vol. 8, Number 3, April 1940.1 So t h a t ' s how
I got t o know him.
I saw him once more i n New York i n 1952 when I was back
there, but t h a t was g e t t i n g toward the end. It was very d i f f i -
c u l t f o r him t o carry on t h a t job because he did i t a l l himself,
DuCasse: and he had a l i t t l e t i n y o f f i c e t h a t was l i k e a cubbyhole,
and it was l i t e r a l l y stacked. He had a l i t t l e t i n y place f o r
h i s desk, and everything was stacked around him, you know.
The poor guy--I think some of h i s backers gradually petered
out.
R i e s s : Who were h i s subscribers, do you think?
DuCasse: They were from a l l over the country. I think they were Catholic
colleges, even some of the more well-educated Catholic p r i e s t s ,
a r c h i t e c t s who were interested i n church building. Because he
always had a r t i c l e s on some nice church, churches t h a t would
be f o r a small community, t h a t were not too expensive, t h a t
were designed t o be simple but beautiful. Like Paul Ryan told
us, you know, t h a t simplicity of f i n e proportion and a good
design.
Riess : Do you think it was an e f f e c t i v e voice?
DuCasse: Definitely. I think t h i s was--how s h a l l we say?--the backbone
of the l i t u r g i c a l a r t movement i n t h i s country, because no
matter what e l s e happened, what came out of t h i s magazine was
very r e f l e c t i v e of what was happening and was very influential.
Riess : Reflective of t h e good?
DuCasse: Of the good, of the good. Of course, once i n a while I think
he would put something there t h a t was no good as an example,
but most was always positive. And you would find these l i t t l e
churches springing up i n a l l p a r t s of the country, it was
wonderful.
Riess : Well, then, a r e you saying t h a t what was good i n Catholic church
a r t beean back i n 1932?
DuCasse: I think probably it did. Now, maybe some of i t had already
begun, you know what I mean, the seeds of it; there might have
been single souls who had t h i s idea and were struggling t o
produce it. Like Effie, h e r s was back i n the t h i r t i e s . And
Father Meehan. They were struggling against a current, and
then gradually t h a t current changed, and I think t h a t the
Liturgical A r t s did a great deal f o r that.
Riess : You've l e n t me books t h a t a r e academic discussions of l i t u r g i c a l
a r t s , and I think t h a t most of the examples, a l l the examples,
a r e from Europe.
DuCasse: True. That was because most of
t h a t wrote those books. That's
those people were Europeans
the sad p a r t of it.
Riess: A t f i r s t I had thought t h a t t h e great movement i n modern
l i t u r g i c a l a r t was postwar, but then I began t o think, well,
no, it r e a l l y goes back t o Matisse and Corbusier and people
l i k e that.
DuCasse: True. And P&re Couturier and P6re R&gamey, yes.
In Europe, you see, there again, Europe s t i l l is the
leader, s t i l l the spearhead of a movement. Well, t h e French
always have been very different. I mean even t h e i r Catholicism
i s d i f f e r e n t , i n a sense. And they were very courageous i n
t h e i r t h e s i s tliat great a r t is produced by great a r t i s t s , and
t h e i r personal philosophy has nothing t o do with it.
Riess: That message didn't get across the water though, did i t ?
DuCasse: Well, not a t t h e beginning. But, I mean, look a t P6re Couturier
i n Assy. He deliberately took communists and a t h e i s t s and what-
ever because they were great a r t i s t s , and he said, "Any great
a r t i s t can take a subject and do a great work of a r t ; he
doesn't have t o be a believer i n the subject."
And i t ' s true. Now, i f you can get a believer who i s a l s o
a great a r t i s t , then y o u ' v ~ g o tsomething which is, well, an
El Greco o r a Giotto. But it i s n ' t always necessary; there can
be an i n t e l l e c t u a l work there, someone who says, "Now, t h i s is
a subject t h a t I w i l l do, and I w i l l make i t a s compelling a s
I can." And i t worked.
The Catholic A r t Forum
Riess: Now l e t ' s zero i n on the Catholic A r t Forum.
t o working f o r "our cause."
You have referred
DuCasse: W
e needed primarily t o brifig contemporary a r t i s t s i n t o the
service of the church. Whether they were Catholics or non-
Catholics o r nothing a t a l l was not primarily our concern. I f
they were Catholic a r t i s t s , fine. O r i f they were Episcopalians
o r whatever. But what we were trying t o do was t o l e t the
church community and the p r i e s t s and the people understand t h a t
they should t r y t o h i r e r e a l a r t i s t s t o do t h e i r work, not t o
depend upon the catalogue.
That was not spelled out i n the aims, but t h a t was within
the idea of bringing t h e contemporary a r t i s t and the church
together, s o t h a t t h a t would be done. I ran across t h a t
DuCasse: manifesto i n here somewhere. [referring t o materials] Here i t
is. [reading] "The aims of the Catholic A r t Forum s h a l l be t o
f o s t e r a greater i n t e r e s t i n and appreciation of l i t u r g i c a l and
religious a r t of the Roman Catholic t r a d i t i o n with p a r t i c u l a r
emphasis on the contemporary insofar a s it does not contradict
t r a d i t i o n . "
That's very interesting, t h a t wording, because i f you allow
the contemporary a r t i s t t o go too f a r out i n t o t o t a l abstraction,
t h a t would contradict t r a d i t i o n because we don't f e e l t h a t
Christ is a b s t r a c t ; Christ is actually l i v i n g today, and there-
f o r e there has t o be some concrete, specifically concrete
ideas there.
I n other words, we have t h e limitation on one s i d e of bad-
t a s t e a r t which was j u s t copied and recopied so many times it
had l o s t a l l its form and meaning, o r the other extreme art
which was so f a r removed from l i f e t h a t i t wouldn't have meaning
f o r the average person. So i n a way, we made those two extremes
a stop; we would stop a t those points.
Riess: Did you w r i t e these bylaws together with Father Monihan.?
DuCasse: The board did. W
e had sessions i n which we worked t h i s out,
and t h e wording of everything was done by the board. I think
we were actually about f i f t e e n members i n a l l . They may not
a l l have been l i s t e d there.
Riess: The artist-founders, and then there's Father Monihan.
DuCasse: And there was Darrell Dally who was a layman. H i s name is not
there, but he and Father Monihan were the ones who got us a l l
together the f i r s t time. He and Father were the ones who called
us together t o do something about these problems that had a r i s e n
from the experience we had i n producing t h e contemporary
religious art show a t t h e de Young Museum.
Contemporary Religious A r t by California A r t i s t s , 1952
Riess: So t h e show at the de Young w a s t h e f i r s t issue,-then.
DuCasse: That's it. That was r e a l l y what was a t t h e back of the cause
f o r the forming of the A r t Forum. And now I'll t e l l you one of
the main reasons. Father Meehan, of course, was on the committee,
and he was on the jury, and we had selected certain key a r t i s t s
DuCasse: 	 whose work we had great confidence i n , and we invited them,
-
not t o be juried, but they were invited t o show. Then we juried
a whole group of other a r t i s t s t h a t we sent the information to.
But Father Meehan, when he saw one of these a r t i s t s t h a t
we had invlted, would not permit the work t o be shown because
he said it was an i n f e r i o r material, and it was beautiful
s t a i n l e s s s t e e l . And t h i s rocked us a l l because, t o us, t h i s
was a s precious and a s beautiful a s gold o r s i l v e r or alabaster
o r what have you. Stainless s t e e l was our contemporary medium,
which was beautiful. It was "
M
y Peace I Give unto You" by
Elah Hale Hays, a very well-known Berkeley woman who taught
sculpture a t A r t s and Crafts f o r many, many years.
It was exquisite. It was abstract and y e t it was recog-
nizable. It was done beautifully, a beautiful thing. Well, we
were j u s t not only horrified and embarrassed t h a t we had t o t e l l
her t h a t , but t h a t a p r i e s t , who was supposed t o have been so
a e s t h e t i c a l l y sensitive and an a r t i s t , would have t h i s t o t a l l y
erroneous concept; it was j u s t staggering. There was nothing
we could do, he was adamant.
Riess: 	 And what was h i s r o l e on the committee?
DuCasse: 	 He was head of the jury. But even though t h i s was a nonjuried
work, he would not allow i t t o be shown.
Riess: 	 I thought he was down i n Camel. I mean I thought he was
connected down there.
DuCasse: 	 No, no, he was San Francisco. He was a great friend of E f f i e ' s ,
but he worked out of San Francisco.
So immediately we realized there was a gulf between the
clergy concept of a r t and the a r t i s t . So evidently t h a t got t o
Father Monihan--I don't know how that got t o him--and t h i s whole
thing started.
Riess: Well, t h a t ' s very interesting. W
h
o organized the exhibition i n
the f i r s t place?
DuCasse: 	 That was probably Ruth Cravath and Ninfa Valvo, I would imagine,
who was then curator of painting a t the museum.
Riess : 	 So t h i s was the seminal moment, the show?
DuCasse: 	 Yes, and then, with our experience of t h a t show, came the
necessity f o r the A r t Forum.
Riess:
DuCasse:
Riess :
DuCasse:
Riess:
DuCasse :
Riess :
DuCasse:
Riess:
DuCass e:
Riess :
DuCasse:
Riess :
DuCasse:
Riess :
DuCasse:
Riess :
DuCasse :
Riess:
Okay. Could we go down the list of these members of the 

exhibition committee f o r t h a t Religious A r t by California 

A r t i s t s show and see how they f i t in? Ruth Cravath we know 

is a sculptor. 

Right. And already had done work f o r the Church. 

And Ninfa Valvo? 

Yes. She was curator of painting a t the de Young Museum a t 

the time, and she was i n charge of the exhibition. She mounted
t h e exhibition, with our help.
And Aleta Jennings? 

Aleta Jennings was an interested laywoman who loved good a r t 

and was a very informed Catholic laywoman. 

Did she continue t o be p a r t of t h e Catholic A r t Forum? 

Y e s , she did r i g h t through t o the end, and recently she gave 

us some papers. 

George Benigsen? 

Benigsen? I assume t h a t he was probably from Grace Cathedral. 

I ' m not sure, l e t ' s look t h a t up, t h a t name sounds familiar t o 

me, but I think he was an Episcopalian minister. 

And Norman K. Blanchard. 

Was an architect. 

The Right Reverend Karl Morgan Block. 

H e was from t h e Grace Cathedral. 

Who put t h i s committee together? 

Probably Ruth and Ninfa, I would imagine. 

Okay. Mario J. Ciampi. 

Yes, you know who he is. 

Right. And Monsignor Harold E. Collins. 

DuCasse: Yes. I guess he was the pastor of the cathedral. Usually the
bishop i s never the pastor of the cathedral; he has h i s s e a t i n
the cathedral. But I think Harold Collins was then t h e pastor
of the cathedral. He was a l s o the l i t u r g i s t , not the a r t but
t h e actual rubrics of the liturgy. I have h i s book t h a t he
wrote a t the time.[The Church Edifice and Its Appointments,
Dolphin Press, 1940, Monsignor Harold E. Collins. ] W
e had t o
have a good l i t u r g i s t on our board.
Riess: Of course, t h i s i s not your board yet.
DuCasse: No, I mean f o r the committee f o r the exhibit.
Riess: And you. And the Reverend E. C.
DuCasse: He a l s o sounds t o m
e l i k e he w a s
Riess: And Rabbi Alvin I. Fine.
DuCasse: He was from Temple Emanu-El.
Riess: Was he a c t i v e on t h i s committee?
DuCasse: Oh yes, yes, a l l of these were.
all met.
Riess: Louisa Jenkins.
DuCasse: Who, of course, you know.
Farnharn.
an Episcopalian.
W
e met together many times, we
Riess: Peter Macchiarini. He's a jeweler', i s n ' t he?
DuCasse: Y e s . Metalcraft. He did some l i t u r g i c a l pieces I think.
Riess: TheReverendLeoT. Maher.
DuCasse: He might have been the chancellor a t t h a t time. He was s e n s i t i v e
t o a r t , was interested i n a r t , and he was the one t h a t we d e a l t
with when w e formed the Catholic A r t Forum. He was not always
a s open as we had thought he was going t o be, but he was one of
the few Catholic p r e l a t e s w e knew who w a s interested i n art a t
l e a s t .
Riess: . D r . Elisabeth Moses.
DuCasse: She w a s a l s o working a t the de Young Museum. Very shortly a f t e r
t h a t she l e f t . She may have been j u s t a v i s i t i n g curator. But
she went back t o be the head of t h e museum i n Milan. Ninfa gave
m
e a l e t t e r t o her, and when I was i n Milan I went t o see her
DuCasse: and she took me a l l through the museum and showed me what they
were going t o do; you know, the I t a l i a n s had never done anything
about updating or cleaning or using any restorative techniques
on t h e i r a r t work. She had learned a great d e a l i n America and
she was taking t h e message back and she was s e t t i n g up t h i s
whole structure. It was magnificent what she was doing. So i t
was wonderful t o see her.
Riess: Oh, t h a t ' s interesting.
That was the end of her time i n the Bay Area?
DuCasse: Yes, she had j u s t come here I guess maybe t o learn the techniques
and so forth. A most wonderful .person, a lovely person. I
think she was here and then she went t o Europe and then she came
back. But she must have been j u s t back f o r a v i s i t because--
and I'll t e l l you t h a t too, when t h e time comes--when I went t o
Europe i n 1952, you see, i t was j u s t before the exhibit, and I
had been given c a r t e blanche t o find a r t i s t s . W
e had hoped i n
the beginning t o make it international. By t h e time I got back,
three months l a t e r , they found the cost was prohibitive, and
they scratched t h a t p a r t of it.
But I went t o her t o find out about a r t i s t s i n Milan. I
found a r t i s t s i n Amsterdam. I found contacts i n d i f f e r e n t places.
It was..a wonderful project f o r me t o work on a s I travelled.
Riess: I don't understand how Father Meehan could have been so presump-
tuous. It was not an all-Catholic show; i t was called religious
a r t , wasn't i t ?
DuCasse: True. But he was the Catholic p r i e s t - a r t i s t , you see, so he was
very conscious of h i s position. O r maybe he took on more than
he should have. But he was the only one who was a p r i e s t a s
well a s an a r t i s t , and vice versa.
Riess: And was it a p a r t i c u l a r l y Catholic-looking piece?
DuCasse: Oh, it could have been. What it was was these two beautiful
pieces of s t e e l , thinned, squared pieces, which made t h e body,
and then the arms came out from t h a t , the same, but very
A
stylized, and beautiful hands, and they were t h e blessing hands.
Then the head was very stylized, but it was j u s t a s recognizable
a s you'd want. It was only the torso; t h i s came down i n t o a
beautiful block of wood. Well, we had i t i n the next exhibit;
the A r t Forum exhibited it many times!
Riess: Was the show reviewed? Did i t get a great deal of press?
DuCasse: Oh, i t did. I was looking through here;
the copies of those reviews.
I don't seem t o have
Riess: This catalogue has an introduction by Walter Heil. And I see
that your selection jury was headed by Rudolph Schaeffer--
hardly a l i k e l y person, Iwould think.
DuCasse: You're r i g h t ; I don't know how t h a t came about. Maybe because
he may have been very interested i n the whole idea, and being
a teacher and a c o l o r i s t and designer, they probably thought
t h a t he could contribute.
Riess: And Margaret Bruton was a l s o on the selection jury.
muralist, o r what was she?
She was a
DuCasse: W e l l , the three Bruton s i s t e r s often did things together, and
they were muralists, mosaic, yes, and paint, I think they've
done some painting; but most of t h e i r work was mosaic, a medium
ideally adapted t o church decoration.
Riess: And Dorothy Puccinelli Cravath.
DuCasse: Right.
Riess: And Michael Goodman.
DuCasse: That name is familiar but I can't r e c a l l t h e connection.
Riess: W e l l , h e ' s an architect, and he did the decoration on the
405 Sutter building i n the c i t y .
DuCasse: Oh yes, oh yes.
R i e s s : I think t h a t , looking a t t h i s selection jury, I can see why the
Reverend John E. Meehan f e l t t h a t he had t o represent God,
because nobody e l s e here i s particularly religious.
DuCasse: Exactly, exactly.
[laughter]
He was overly conscientious, I must say.
[referring t o materials] This is the exhibit,
review by [Alfred.] Frankenstein.
t h i s i s the
Riess: Y e s . [reading] "ReligionandModernArt GoHand inHand."
DuCasse: See, and t h i s is quite a nice long a r t i c l e too.
a copy of that.
W e should get
Riess: They give a s an example something by Jacques Schnier, l e n t by
the Temple Emanu-El. And Elio Benvenuto.
DuCasse: E l i o ' s was one of t h e s t a t u e s f o r Corpus C r i s t i ,
being done a t t h a t time.
which was j u s t
Riess : And by Frances Rich.
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t famous St. Francis of hers,
thing, almost life-size.
which is a very lovely
Riess : Had you conceivpd of t h i s being an annual t h i n g ' a t the time t h a t
you were putting together the religious a r t show?
DuCasse: No, we were j u s t glad t o get it i n a major museum.
It s t a r t e d out t o be national o r international, and we f i n a l l y
had t o p u l l i n our horns because we j u s t didn't have the funds f o r
t h a t . So i t turned out t o be mostly l e t ' s say West Coast o r the
western p a r t of the United States. So i t was l o c a l , t o a great
extent local.
Riess : Okay. So then the next event i s the a c t u a l Catholic A r t Forum.
DuCasse: Right.
Riess: [reading] "Desirous of carrying on t h e work begun i n our area
by the l a r g e exhibit of religious a r t held a t t h e de Young Museum
i n the f a l l of 1952." Then, "Since i t ' s organization i n 1953,
the Forum has held quarterly meetings. The artist-founders:
Elio Benvenuto, Mario Ciampi, Peggy Conahan." Now, we haven't
heard anything about Peggy Conahan.
DuCasse: No.
not
It's impossible.
in. the phone book.
I haven't been able t o find her; she's
Riess : What kind of an a r t i s t was she?
DuCasse: Well, let's see, she painted, and I ' m trying t o think i f she did
any f a b r i c works too, banners and a l t a r f r o n t a l s , but I don't
remember now. I think mainly t h a t she painted. She was very
much an individualist, and always d i f f i c u l t t o get ahold o f , you
know, elusive is what I ' m trying t o say. She was kind of an
elusive person. I did see her once when I was s t i l l teaching
a t Lone Mountain; something came up and I got i n touch with her
and saw her b r i e f l y a t t h a t time, and now there's nothing i n
the telephone book, I haven't been able t o find her. So I
don't know i f she's moved out of the area o r what.
Riess : [continuing t o read the list of artist-founders]
Cravath. And you. And June Foster Hass.
And Ruth
DuCasse: She died two years ago. She's t h e one who did the two pieces
of sculpture I have over there, t h e c r u c i f i x and the madonna.
Riess : Louisa Jenkins. Del Lederle.
DuCasse: He was a painter.
R i e s s : And Antonio Sotomayor. Are these a l l Catholics?
DuCasse: Let m
e see.
Riess: That's my f i r s t question. How did you get from t h i s "Religious
A r t by California A r t i s t s w - - .
DuCasse: Well, Ruth i s not. The f i r s t three are,
I know. And June was.
o r a t l e a s t a s f a r a s
Riess: So it was not a requirement of the o r i g i n a l planning?
DuCasse: No. Louisa and Del, Antonio, yes. No, i t was not. The only
one now of t h a t group t h a t i s n ' t technically a Catholic is Ruth
Cravath, though she was [laughing] a s much one a s anybody. It
j u s t happened t h a t a l l of those were Catholics.
The Catholic A r t i s t s Organize--Aims and Achievements
Riess: When you were shocked a t Father Meehan's decision, i t was
Catholics who decided t h a t something had t o be done?
DuCasse: Right, definitely. And a s you noticed, i n our aims was "the
Roman Catholic tradition." Do you remember we said that.? .
The Episcopalian Church and the Lutheran Church, and maybe
even the Presbyterian Church, some of the non-Catholic,
Protestant churches, did have good t a s t e already i n t h e i r use
-
of a r t , long before t h e Catholic; the Catholic Church was way
behind i n that.
Riess: Yes, you mentioned a l s o a couple of years ago "feeling t h a t the
Protestant churches were i n b e t t e r t a s t e , t r u e r t o the Vatican I1
s p i r i t of sweeping clean.'' Of course, t h a t is more recent.
DuCasse: Right. That's exactly what i t was.
R i e s s : What happened t o Father Meehan and the Catholic A r t Forum?
he p a r t i c i p a t e i n i t ?
Did
DuCasse: Oh yes, he did, and he even gave u s a t a l k and possibly more.
W
e never could r e a l l y face him down on t h a t , you see; he knew
-
t h a t we were very upset about it, but we j u s t didn't make a
big scene. What could you do?
When the Catholic A r t Forum w a s formed, he must have gotten
the message. Fundamentally he was absolutely i n agreement with
us, -except t h a t he j u s t f e l t there were c e r t a i n materials t h a t
were not precious enough, which is ridiculous. But I don't
remember t h a t t h a t ever came up again. He may have changed h i s
mind, too.
~ i e s k : There was
Forum.
a l o t of energy i n the beginning of the Catholic A r t
DuCasse: Oh, m
y yes, indeed there was.
R i e s s : And by t h e end?
DuCasse: Well, i t was a f t e r Vatican 11, where the emphasis was away from
the need t o embellish the church and the liturgy. I n other
words, they were talking about going back t o the simplicity of
the apostolic period, where the . m a s s was said a t a t a b l e a t
which people s a t around. I n other words, it was a meal, it w a s
a f e s t i v e meal between friends, a gathering of the community.
So they were going back t o that--and l i k e t h a t English
a r c h i t e c t , Peter Hammond, who s a i d , "Maybe we don't need a
church building a t a l l anymore." I mean they were going t o the
other extreme, which was ridiculous, t h a t was too much. But a l l
of a sudden, a r t was not important. The important thing was
t h a t the community came together and celebrated the Eucharist
and t h a t Christ came down i n t h e i r midst; t h a t was a l l t h a t was
necessary f o r a while, t o get us back t o the fundamental prin-
ciples.
I n other words, there were so many devotions which were
taking people away from the c e n t r a l devotion of our religion,
which is the Eucharist. They were saying the rosary during
mass, and mostly the l i t t l e old l a d i e s were doing t h a t , and
then they would be running t o s i d e a l t a r s and saying t h e i r
prayers, you know, when the mass was going on.
So i n order t o j u s t r e a l l y shake them up, we j u s t said no,
w e don't need statues, we don't need pictures, we don't need
anything but the t a b l e and the Eucharist and a l l of us gathered
DuCasse: around. That's why out a t Newman Hall many times people w i l l
j u s t a l l go up a t the consecration and holdhands around the
table, which is very lovely t o see and experience. So, the
emphasis changed radically.
Riess: I don't know whether you take issue with t h i s report of Robert
Dunavan 's ?
DuCasse: I haven't read that i n years, I should read i t over again.
Riess: I n 1967, when the question was what t o do about the Catholic
A r t Forum, whether you should continue t o meet o r not, he
concluded t h a t t h e purpose of the Forum a t t h a t point should
-
be [reading]: "1) t o a c t a s an agency f o r those who a r e seeking
the services of a r t i s t s and architects." Now, I won't go
through these things t h a t he thinks it should be, but they're
a l l very interesting, and I wonder whether any of them were
ever realized.
DuCasse: No, they never were. That statement was prepared, a s I remember,
when we were trying t o see i f we could keep the thing going.
But j u s t a s t h a t statement was prepared, we realized t h a t with
Vatican I1 and with a l l the work t h a t we had already done, and
t h a t was having a good e f f e c t , t h a t r e a l l y we had l o s t our reason
f o r being anymore.
W
e didn't f e e l t h a t t h a t was p a r t of our a i m s , you see. I n
other words, nobody wanted t o be the person t h a t had t o sit i n
the o f f i c e and be a t the telephone t o be the entrepreneur or the
middleman o r whatever you want t o c a l l them. Who wanted t o do
that? Nobody wanted t o do t h a t . Nobody was going t o be paid
and they wouldn't do it anyway, you know.
Riess: Right. Somebody's wife would do it.
DuCasse: That's r i g h t ,
[laughter]
exactly. And nobody's wife w a s interested.
Riess: The second aim is a nice one too, and you can.dea1 with that.
That was "to exhibit the best r e l i g i o u s a r t available i n the
Cathedral A r t Museum." Now, what happened t o the Cathedral A r t
Museum?
DuCasse: Well, t h a t was one of the things t h a t we did t r y to work on.
And f o r a while there i t looked l i k e we might be able t o use
that space. But there again, you had t o have somebody who
would be there t o sit. You would have t o have somebody t o get
the exhibits together. And most of us had a l l done t h a t work
i n the beginning when we did those traveling shows which were
DuCasse: very, very complicated. W
e had t o have insurance on a l l of that,
t h a t ' s costly. And it was j u s t one of those jobs t h a t nobody
was f r e e t o do. Most of us were not f r e e t o do t h a t anymore.
And it was a question of l o g i s t i c s .
Riess: I understand. Three was "to encourage a continuing dialogue
between a r t i s t s and p r i e s t s by fostering a regular monthly s e r i e s
of film showings and discussions."
DuCasse: Yes, i t ' s a l l a wonderful idea, but i t takes organization.
-Riess: Okay. And the fourth one is more of the same: "supplying films
and l e c t u r e s t o l o c a l schools i n order t o augment t h e i r a r t
classes. "
DuCasse: You see, i f our organization had been solid enough a t t h a t time,
with a good working force, we could have done a l l those things.
But by t h a t time it was j u s t f a l l i n g apart anyway, naturally, you
know, and very few of us had the time t o give t o do those things.
And we couldn't afford t o pay anybody; t h a t ' s what should have
been done, really. That would take an organization with funds.
Riess: Yes, and t h a t ' s what he s t a r t e d out by saying:
what's needed."
"it's money t h a t ' s
DuCasse: Absolutely.
Riess: I n the beginning, back i n the e a r l y f i f t i e s , where did you meet
and what did you do a t your meetings?
DuCasse: W
e immediately got together a traveling exhibition, and we had
it a t USF f i r s t , and then we approached d i f f e r e n t Catholic
colleges, non-Catholic groups. That's-why I can't imagine what
happened t o i t o r whether I've got the wrong name, but I know
we took our exhibit t o the Lutheran Seminary which Ithought
was out i n e a s t Oakland somewhere, but there's no such thing mow.
Concordia College it was called a t t h a t time.
W
e took it down t o t h e seminary, our Catholic seminary,
which was exceedingly important because here were the young
p r i e s t s t h a t were being formed and t h i s was our exhibit there.
[bringing out materials] W
e had three lectures. I gave one.
W
e had one by a priest-theologian. And we had one by Paul Ryan,
an architect. W
e got a great response from the young seminarians;
they were j u s t delighted with it.
So, you see, t h i s was what we f e l t was our educational aim.
And we took i t t o Santa Rosa, t o the convent i n Santa Rosa. W
e
took it t o Stockton some place. I think we even took it up t o
DuCasse: Sacramento. It was a period of our greatest momentum. You see,
we had dues from our members--we had a f a i r l y large membership--
so we could pay f o r the insurance. Darrell Dally arranged that
f o r us. I think he was connected with an insurance firm a t the
time. So he was able t o get an insurance r i d e r on the exhibit.
W
e had an exhibit a t the a r t s f e s t i v a l when i t was held i n
Washington Square.
Riess: Was there j u s t one traveling show?
DuCasse: I think w e had two traveling shows. W
e had the f i r s t one, and
then we regrouped and got new things and did a l i t t l e b i t more.
Then it became, again, a d i f f i c u l t y t o move the artworks, t o
take them carefully, t o insure them and a l l t'he rest of it, and
f i n a l l y we f e l t t h a t we had gotten that show around t o as many
places a s we could, and to do i t a second time was not completely
necessary. But we s t i l l had a l e c t u r e program i n San Francisco.
Riess: Where?
DuCasse: A t USF. O r
we had it.
the Junipero Serra Shop. Either of those two places
Riess: And a s the years went by, were you asked t o
Was your group recognized a s an authority?
come i n and consult?
DuCasse: Maybe not the group a s such, but members of the group, because
of t h e i r a f f i l i a t i o n I guess. For instance, an a r c h i t e c t would
know, you see, already would know. O r he, a s a member of the
board, would go out and approach other a r c h i t e c t s who he f e l t
would be interested, and t h a t ' s where we got Paul Dachauer and
Paul Ryan and, people l i k e t h a t , who were i n on the founding of
it.
Riess: And didn't Mario Ciampi say t h a t i t was
t h e commission a t Newman Center?
through you that he got
DuCasse: Right, yes. Because we did that. A s members of the organization,
we were trying t o put people i n contact with each other. W
e
would hear about a r t i s t s and we would check them out; we did do
that.
R i e s s : And what did you do f o r t h a t massive mailing list of members?
What kinds of events?
DuCasse: They came t o the lectures. W
e would have a general meeting once
a year where the new board members and the chairman would be
elected. So we gave them one large meeting per year. The board
meetings were closed, unless we invited s p e c i f i c people f o r some
reason.
Riess:
DuCasse:
Riess : 

DuCasse: 

Riess :
DuCasse:
R i e s s :
DuCasse:
Church A r t i n the 1960s: A Retrospective Look a t the
Junipero Serra Shop, and the Catholic A r t Forum
I wonder i f sometimes the discussion would go beyond the scope of
the forum t o where people would t a l k about issues i n general
meetings of t h e i r religious i d e n t i t y , o r t h a t s o r t of thing?
Probably. I ' m j u s t trying t o think back. I don't remember; those
meetings a r e a l l kind of hazy because i t would only be once a
year.
I n the beginning we had a f a i r turnout. Our membership 

really-was interested i n what we were doing, and, of course, 

they came t o the exhibits o r the s p e c i a l programs. W
e usually 

had a very good turnout f o r l e c t u r e s of any kind. There was 

discussion, t h a t was encouraged, but I don't remember j u s t how

it came about. 

Did it have any spin-offs, other groups t h a t developed out of i t ?
I don't remember, I don't think so, but t h a t I don't know. It
might have been, say, a Lutheran group might get t h e idea and
then do something of t h e i r own, because they were very active.
Also, of course, Grace Cathedral, they had a religious a r t
exhibit, ["Church A r t Today," April, May 19601 and I think cer-
t a i n l y it w a s probably stimulated by the A r t Forum's a c t i v i t i e s ,
and they got t h e names of a r t i s t s and everything from us, from
the A r t Forum.
I asked you, and I believe you then checked with Ninfa Valvo,
about Eric Locke, what the Eric Locke Galleries were t h a t
apparently l e n t so much t o t h e Grace Cathedral exhibition?
A s she explained i t t o me, they were not primarily o r exclusively
a religious a r t gallery, they were general, but they did have
contact with some a r t i s t s who did r e l i g i o u s work. But she knew
Eric Locke personally, and was a good friend of h i s and h i s
partner, and often spent an evening with them. So she had very
good feelings about him, she liked him, she thought he was a
very f i n e person, t h a t he had an excellent gallery. But she
said it was not primarily religious.
[brief tape interruption] I think t h a t other churches have more
of a committee s t r u c t u r e than the Catholic Church does. Maybe.
I don't know.
Y e s , t h a t ' s true, they do.
Riess : 	 You were j u s t saying t h a t other congregations were able t o put 

together shows because they have a committee s t r u c t u r e and a r t 

committees. 

DuCasse: 	 Right.
Riess : 	 Has t h i s changed a t a l l i n the Catholic Church?
DuCasse: 	 Yes, it has. But I don't know t h a t i t ' s necessarily an a r t
committee. Most of the parishes now have a parish council,
where they have representatives from a l l the parish areas. I f
they have a parish school, t h e y ' l l have somebody from t h e school
board, o r somebody from the mother's club, t h e y ' l l have people
from the senior group, t h e y ' l l have them from the youth group,
and so forth. They have a parish council and others elected
from the parish a t l a r g e t o help the p r i e s t i n doing the business
of the parish.
Riess : 	 Pope Paul V I , i n t h e S i s t i n e Chapel on Ascension Sunday, May 7,
1964, had a Mass f o r the A r t i s t .
DuCasse: 	 Oh, what a lovely idea.
Riess: 	 I n essence he seemed t o be welcoming a r t i s t s back i n t o the Church,
s o r t of reaching out t o them.
11
Consequently, we have always remained friends, but a s
happens among r e l a t i v e s and friends t h i s relationship
has suffered some damage. May we speak even more
frankly? 	 It i s t o say t h a t you have, i n a measure,
abandoned us. You have gone t o places a f a r , t o drink
a t other fountains, seeking, though it be legitimately,
t o express other things ."
Do you remember any of t h i s ?
DuCasse: 	 I remember hearing of that.
Riess : 	 "Shall we make peace again today and here? Do you wish t o be
friends? The Pope once more the friend of the a r t i s t ? Would
you l i k e t o receive suggestions?" And so on. "Beloved a r t i s t s ,
we s h a l l say but one word more, arrivederci."
DuCasse: 	 Oh, i s n ' t t h a t lovely? I do remember the instance of that. I
d i d n ' t get t o read the whole thing, but I do remember it happening.
I t ' s t r u e t h a t t h a t did happen i n Europe. I think a f t e r t h a t
great s o r t of surge of working f o r the Church by the contemporary
a r t i s t s , t h a t gradually it s o r t of petered out. Well, there
weren't too many churches being b u i l t , anymore. And maybe there
wasn't work f o r the a r t i s t . This i s a possible explanation.
Riess : What was the actual year of Vatican I I ?
DuCasse: Well, it was about t h a t time, e a r l i e r . 1962? I think i t was '62,
or it was before '62. But Pope John, j u s t a f t e r he was elected,
s t a r t e d that. So it probably was the l a t e f i f t i e s and early
s i x t i e s . It might have been concurrent with i t almost, o r j u s t
a f t e r t h e end of it. Because a s I said, there was t h i s s o r t of
d i f f e r e n t emphasis i n the l i t u r g y t h a t came out of the Council,
and maybe t h a t ' s what prompted Pope Paul V I , who followed Pope
John i n the papacy, maybe he f e l t t h a t t h e a r t i s t needed t o
r e a l i z e t h a t he -
was s t i l l rieeded and he was s t i l l wanted.
-
Riess: You might enjoy reading it.
DuCasse: Yes, yes, I would very much l i k e to.
Riess: Would you l i k e t o say something more about the Junipero Serra
Shop, more than was said i n your interview with Ethel ~ o u z a ?
DuCasse: Yes, I remember t h a t the Serra Shop was not only a tremendous
focus f o r anybody who was interested i n contemporary religious
a r t , but the f a c t t h a t they did have small, l i t t l e exhibits.
Some a r t i s t would come t o t h e i r a t t e n t i o n and they would decide
maybe t o have t h e i r work i n the shop. So then they would have
a good showing of t h e i r work, a small showing of t h e i r work.
They would have lectures by f i n e people t h a t were coming
through. People coming from the East o r maybe from Europe o r
from the Orient o r wherever. Any ideas t h a t they f e l t would
help the community here, they would sponsor.
Riess : Was it always a place of modern thinking?
DuCasse: Very much so, absolutely, from its very inception i t was. And
they had p r i e s t s t h a t backed them and p r i e s t s t h a t came and
advised them i f they needed advice. They were always a t the hub.
That was a center of people coming through San Francisco from
a l l over; i f they were i n t h a t f i e l d , they always went s t r a i g h t
-
t o the Junipero Serra Shop. That w a s the one place they knew
t h a t they could f e e l accepted and among t h e i r own.
Riess: I n what f i e l d , though? What do you mean by that?
DuCasse: Well, a r t , l i t e r a t u r e , l i t u r g y , t h e p r i e s t s , the l a i t y , educators.
And they had such f i n e examples of genuine a r t works, and they
had a beautiful l i n e of cards. For instance, so often someone
w i l l s t i l l say t o me down a t Vallombrosa, "Oh, it j u s t t e r r i b l e
t h a t we don't have the Junipero Serra Shop. W
e can't find a good
DuCasse: religious card anymore." You know, they j u s t had such good t a s t e
and so many people became dependent upon them f o r t h a t t h a t it
was' r e a l l y very sad when they closed.
R i e s s : You say it was a center, but
t a s t e apparently. It wasn't
it was not a center enough t o change
enough t o solve the problem.
DuCasse: No, no, it was an adjunct. It was another voice, and another
ground upon which t h i s kind of thing could be fostered and
encouraged.
R i e s s : The two traveling shows probably takes us up t o around 1957 o r
so?
DuCasse: Right.
Riess: And then a f t e r t h a t period what was the Catholic A r t Forum doing?
DuCasse: Mainly, it w a s programs, lectures, and I think occasionally we
had small exhibits; again, probably e i t h e r a t t h e Junipero Serra
Shop o r a t USF, a t the library. But we didn't t r a v e l them, we
would have them maybe j u s t f o r a s p e c i f i c reason.
Riess: Here a r e the minutes of
studio i n May, 1969.
an annual meeting held a t Edith Hamlin's
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t
l a s t .
was one of t h e l a s t meetings t h a t we had, i f not the
Riess: I n October, 1969, Ruth Cravath sent out the minutes,
sounds l i k e t h a t ' s kind of the end.
and that
DuCasse: Y e s , I think t h a t would be it.
Riess: And there's a nest egg f o r a future revival of
Forum. (That must be worth something by now.)
the Catholic A r t
DuCasse: Yes, I wonder what's happened t o that. [laughter] W e l l , you
know what we did with t h a t nest egg f i n a l l y , because i t was
impossible t o decide on who t o take care of it, we gave i t t o
the Gleeson Library. Father Monihan was t o buy a f i n e art book
with i t i n t h e memory of the A r t Forum. That's what happened t o
our nest egg. That was o f f i c i a l l y turned over t o him.
Riess: Well, between our review of things today and the interviews t h a t
you've done, do you f e e l t h a t the Catholic A r t Forum is documented?
DuCasse: I think so. I think I f i l l e d i n some l i t t l e empty spaces there
t h a t we didn't get from some of the others. I hope t h a t I have.
It seems t o m
e t h a t I have, a s f a r as I can remember.
Riess: Of course, the bottom-line question--which is hardly f a i r , j u s t
because i t ' s such an easy question--is, did it work?
DuCasse: Yes, I think I can say it worked. It provided t h a t necessary
impetus i n its time. Now, whether it worked on a wide scale,
we don't r e a l l y know, but t h e l i t t l e b i t t h a t we did see of it
we f e e l t h a t it did work, a t l e a s t i n our area, i n San Francisco.
Riess: There must have been some l i t t l e skirmishes among the people,
because you get a bunch of a r t i s t s together and i t ' s t e r r i b l y
i d e a l i s t i c t o think that they're a l l going t o be i n anything
t h a t even resembles agreement about what good t a s t e is.
DuCasse: That's.-true, too. But I think what helped was t h a t we had
individual a r t i s t s whom we had confidence i n , fellow a r t i s t s
had confidence i n them, and when we would put a show together
it was j u s t a few of us t h a t did i t , and it's j u s t l i k e any
museum show: you decide on who is going t o mount the exhibit
and t h a t ' s i t , and then you don't quibble with them. You may
not l i k e what they've done a f t e r it's a l l over, but you can't
do anything about it while i t ' s being done. This is t h e usual
procedure i n musuems and g a l l e r i e s anywhere.
R i e s s : Fromthemostloftyviewthatyoucanconceiveofyourself,
what do you think a r e t h e r e a l l y major pieces of l i t u r g i c a l
a r t t h a t you would point t o with pride?
DuCasse: Well, I certainly would say t h a t Newman Hall is one of the high
points, because t h a t i s unusual. Some of the others were churches
that--and I ' m eliminating Corpus C h r i s t i because t h a t was j u s t
before our time; we didn't r e a l l y influence t h a t a t all--but
I ' m thinking of some of t h e other churches, l i k e some t h a t Paul
Dachauer did. They were where they had t o provide both a meeting
place and a church, and they were not always t r u l y and completely
a church. So t h a t what was done was the best t h a t could be done,
but it was w e l l done. But i t ' s not an example of a beautiful
l i t t l e church t h a t was j u s t t o be used a s a l i t u r g i c a l function,
alas.
W
e didn't r e a l l y have a great deal of influence on the
cathedral. W
e would have liked t o have had more influence than
we did. So we can't take c r e d i t f o r t h a t one. And I can't
think of any others t h a t had t h e complete benefit--. Well,
of course, Paul Ryan mentioned several, and t h a t one h e did
f o r the Carmelite s i s t e r s .
Riess: Of course, t h a t ' s a kind of throwback.
DuCasse: Yes, t h a t was not r e a l l y what we were trying t o get the church
a r c h i t e c t and the church a r t i s t t o do, it was not contemporary
i n t h a t sense. But i t was f o r a specific need and i t ' s perfect
f o r those nuns; they would not have been happy with a modem,
contemporary church. You can say t h a t t h a t was done i n the
s p i r i t of what we did: it was done with good t a s t e and with the
best kind of a r t t h a t Paul Ryan could get commissioned, and
most of i t was done by l i v e a r t i s t s , which i s good, which is
what we were trying t o get them t o do.
I think a s f a r a s the whole working out of a plan t h a t
Newman Hall would be one t h a t I would send people to. Now,
they might not l i k e it! I love it, but others might not. I
was there l a s t week, went-to mass l a s t Sunday, and everytime I
go i n t o t h a t place I ' m impressed with the s p i r i t of it. And I
j u s t love DeStaebler's work. I think i t was the perfect medium
and form f o r t h a t place.
Riess: 	 Good, good.
What was happening i n the r e s t of t h e country? Were there
Catholic a r t forums a l l over the land?
DuCasse: 	 I doubt it, I doubt it. I think t h i s i s maybe a kind of a
western thing, you know; Westerners have a l o t of courage and
t h e y ' l l get together and do something which maybe some other
p a r t s of the country would not. Maybe they didn't need it.
I know t h a t E f f i e worked.out of Kansas City f o r a while and
did some nice things around there. She did it on t h e East
Coast. I think there probably were maybe other l i t t l e enclaves
of people of t a s t e who were trying t o do something i n t h e i r
area because they knew about what was being done i n Europe, and
they knew, of course, about E f f i e , and maybe they knew about us
f o r a l l I know. I don't know how f a r t h a t went outside of
California.
Riess: 	 Was it publicized i n the Liturgical A r t s magazine? Did you get
coverage?
DuCasse: 	 That I don't know. I don't remember. It should have been.
Riess: 	 We've been talking about l i t u r g i c a l a r t , but i n religious a r t
i n general, now, what has happened t o the paintings and the
decorative things, the stained glass of a religious theme? Were
you concerning yourselves i n the Catholic A r t Forum with t h a t
or was it always t h e l i t u r g i c a l pieces?
DuCasse: Oh yes. After a l l , stained glass is p a r t of the surroundings
of the l i t u r g y , so t h a t ' s very important. And murals, i f they
a r e near the a l t a r . And the s t a t i o n s of the cross, though
they're not l i t u r g i c a l , they a r e p a r t of a church's embellish-
ments. The s t a t i o n s , whether they a r e actually pictures o r
sculptures, t h e r e ' s got t o be t h a t l i t t l e cross fourteen times
i n a church; t h a t ' s j u s t one of the t r a d i t i o n a l p a r t s one always
has. So t h i s brought i n a chance for a r t i s t s t o do something,
t h a t was not technically l i t u r g i c a l , but i t was part of t h e
i n t e r i o r of the church decoration, so it had t o have bearing
on what was already there.
R i e s s : . Hadn't the worst of the offensive t a s t e i n r e l i g i o u s a r t been
i n the b i g paintings?
DuCasse: Well, mainly i n the statuary. Because, you see, often they
wouldn't be a b l e t o have big paintings--they couldn't afford
that--but they could go t o a catalogue and buy these t e r r i b l e
p l a s t e r s t a t u e s , which sometimes were copies of b e t t e r things,
but by the time they had been redone and then painted with
these h o r r i b l e colors, they had l o s t a l l relationship t o any-
thing t h a t had been good, i f it had been good i n the f i r s t
place.
R i e s s : Does religious painting e v e n e x i s t anymore?
DuCasse: I doubt i f it does. Because you can get reproductions of good
contemporary a r t o r some of t h e great men of the past, you know,
i f you want something i n your home. I f you're a fellow a r t i s t ,
then, of course, you'd have something of D e l ' s or something of
June's o r maybe somebody t h a t I knew would have one of m
y pieces
i n t h e i r home. Of a devotionai nature.
Riess: And i f anyone wanted t o go and buy something?
DuCasse: That's i t , t h e r e ' s no place. See, t h a t ' s what you could do a t
the Junipero Serra Shop. They had paintings and they had
sculptures t h a t were good contemporary things. And many people
bought them f o r t h e i r home, f o r a devotional reason. Well, l i k e
m
y l i t t l e a l t a r up there, they would have i t i n the home because
they loved a c e r t a i n s a i n t or they wanted a p i c t u r e of Christ
o r the Blessed Virgin Mary o r other s a i n t , they wanted t h a t a s
a devotional thing i n t h e i r home, and they wanted good a r t .
Now, f o r instance; Grace Cathedral bookstore, I think they
have some good contemporary a r t . I haven't been there f o r a
long time, but I knew they used to. There would be one place
where you could find it. There again you see much more i n the
non-Catholic f i e l d than you would i n the Catholic f i e l d .
Other DuCasse Work
Riess: Did your career actually grow out of the Catholic A r t Forum o r
would your career have been i n t a c t without i t ?
DuCasse: I think it would have been i n t a c t because most of those commis-
sions were from people who knew m
e or knew others who had had
work done by m
e before the A r t Forum began. I think Paul
brought t h a t out too, t h a t very often an a r c h i t e c t would know
c e r t a i n a r t i s t s and would come back t o them again and again,
and t h i s very often happens i n t h e Catholic group because they
prefer sticking with somebody t h a t they know, s o t h a t I think
I r e a l l y would have gone on, i n s p i t e of it. And I stopped
doing things, you know, pretty much a f t e r the f i f t i e s .
The Mural of the Ascension of Christ over the high a l t a r
and set of s t a t i o n s of the cross f o r the Naval Station Chapel,
Treasure Island, I did t h a t i n 1943. That was the next major
thing, a f t e r t h e Franciscan mural.
Riess: How did you get the commission? Was i t through the a r c h i t e c t ?
DuCasse: No, strangely enough. They had a beautiful house, l i k e a ,
reception center, f o r the naval men going i n and out of Treasure
Island. This was during the war. The woman put i n charge of
it was a very good friend of mine, and she heard t h a t they
wanted t o have a decoration up over the a l t a r . She got i n
touch with me r i g h t away, and she said, "I've talked t o the
admiral and he's very interested. Would you come up and meet
him?" And so I did, and t h a t ' s how I got the job; i t was
through a layman, a friend of mine.
It was very interesting. The admiral a t t h a t t i m e was,
I believe, an Episcopalian. He liked t h i s idea of course. And
I said, "But you know, you do have Jewish chaplains and you do
have non-Catholic chaplains, other denominations who might not
l i k e a depiction of Christ." "Ha!" he said, "if they're not
around here t o t e l l u s what they want, it's j u s t too bad. I
want t h a t , t h a t ' s what we're going t o have." [laughter] And
I was r e a l l y i n charge of doing the decorating and everything,
you know.
Riess: Well, those w e r e e a r l i e r , simpler days.
DuCasse: Those were the dear old days, you know, when whoever was on deck
had the say. So the poor Jewish people did have t o make a b i g
tapestry which they put up over t h a t mural. And I don't know i f
DuCasse: i t ' s even seen today.
covered up eventually.
much flak.
I have an idea t h a t it probably was
There might have been a l i t t l e b i t too
Riess: Then you had a mural a t Monterey Naval A i r
i n 1944.
Station, executed
DuCasse: It was i n a temporary building, s o I've no idea what happened
t o it a f t e r the war was over. It was i n three panels with the
f l i e r s on the l e f t s i d e panel, and the mechanics on the r i g h t
s i d e panel, and a large panel with Christ, between them, who
blesses t h e i r work and t r i e s t o keep them s a f e during t h e i r
a c t i v i t y . And t h a t ' s why w e used Christ i n the center with the
airplanes going out from Him.
R i e s s : And then a Nativity Group, high-relief, c a s t stone, f o r the main
p o r t a l , Old Saint Mary's Church, Christmas decorations.
DuCasse: Y e s ,
used
t h a t ' s probably gone by t h e wayside because t h a t was only
a few years.
R i e s s : And Mural of Our Lady of Guadalupe f o r t h e shrine i n her honor,
St. Boniface.
DuCasse: Y e s , a s f a r a s I know t h a t ' s s t i l l there, i n St. Boniface Church.
The f i r s t commission I had, which was t h e l i b r a r y , is r i g h t next
door t o the church building.
R i e s s : And then t h e rest were many sets of s t a t i o n s of t h e cross.
DuCasse: Yes, they w e r e done f o r d i f f e r e n t places.
R i e s s : Did you come up with separate conceptions each time?
DuCasse: On two or three occasion they were, but there were one o r two
places where they were the same because people liked them and
they were a c e r t a i n group t h a t I had done, so i t was much e a s i e r
and quicker f o r me t o produce them f o r them.
Riess: Were you able t o support yourself a s a religious a r t i s t ?
DuCasse: No. These commissions came i n few and f a r between, and i n those
days I didn't r e a l l y charge an awful l o t f o r them. I should have
charged more than I did. So, no, i t was not enough t o provide
t o t a l support.
Religious A r t Outside the Bay Area
Riess: How did l i t u r g i c a l o r r e l i g i o u s art i n the West d i f f e r from the
same kind of e f f o r t s i n the same kind of creative area by East
Coast a r t i s t s ? Have you actually gone back t o look and see i f
there a r e those c h a r a c t e r i s t i c East-West differences?
DuCasse: I don't know i f i t would be obvious. A good way t o ascertain
t h a t would be t o look i n t h e Liturgical A r t s magazines because
they give very good examples of churches from a l l over the
country. The only thing t h a t I would suspect would be t h a t i n
California at l e a s t the mission t r a d i t i o n is so strong t h a t we
might find more r e f l e c t i o n of t h a t kind of s t y l e t h a t you would
ever find i n the East. That's not j u s t a general thing, of
course, but I think you might find a l i t t l e more of t h a t s t y l e .
But, of course, a f t e r the Forum began t o r e a l l y t r y t o stir
things up and get people t o see things i n a contemporary way,
then I think maybe you would not see such a great difference; it
might be more l i k e forms t h a t you would see throughout t h e
country.
Riess: I want t o ask you about
Camaldoli.
a group i n Big Sur, the Hermits of New
DuCasse: Camaldoli, oh!
Riess: They're a Roman Catholic order dedicated t o propagating the a r t s .
DuCasse: Right. Well, I ' l l t e l l you about t h e beginning of
they f i r s t came t o California, it was back i n the,
sixties--.
them. When
I guess,
Riess: I n 1959 they appeared i n a L i f e magazine a r t i c l e gn l i f e i n Big
Sur.
DuCasse: Right, okay, '59. Two of m
y friends went down with m
e t o visit
the monastery, and it was i n a beautiful old home, very r u s t i c ,
perched on the s i d e of t h i s great h i l l , and you look down t o the
sea, and t h a t afternoon when we got there it was still sunny and
then a l l of a sudden the fog came in. And we were on a beautiful
s o r t of a porch t h a t hung out over t h i s , with t h e t r e e s a l l
around.
And the p r i e s t a t t h a t time, who w a s the abbot of the group,
was a most extraordinary person. I think h i s name was Modotti.
He w a s Biblical, you know. He had a great white beard, and he
was a t a l l man and a l i t t l e b i t on t h e heavy side, and he had
DuCasse: 	 t h i s beautiful robe they wear, s o r t of a grey, very f u l l , with
b i g f u l l sleeves. He was j u s t the prototype of a monk out i n
the wilderness. He was perfectly charming, I t a l i a n .
He showed us around, and the place was so beautiful. And
the l i t t l e b i t of a r t they had was j u s t wonderful. H i s presence,
the whole thing was j u s t great. So I was very t h r i l l e d . I
thought, "Oh, a t l a s t we've got something r e a l l y true. The t r u e
monasticism has come t o California." This was before I knew my
dear Benedictines down a t Valyermo.
W
e didn't get down again f o r some time, and the next thing
we heard was t h a t he had been removed. (He had formerly been a
J e s u i t , incidentally.) He'd been removed and sent back t o I t a l y ,
and they sent another man i n h i s place.
The next time I saw it, t h a t beautiful old house had burned,
the one where they had originally s t a r t e d t h e i r community. And
they s e t up these prefab huts and they had a great, huge shapeless
building which was the chapel. And they had a reception center
with the most t a s t e l e s s things t h a t the monks were making. I
was s o shocked! That marvelous man who had been the head of it,
he was the one t h a t had the t a s t e i n the a r t and s o forth. It
was j u s t s o sad.
Riess: 	 Were they producing things then t h a t were sold?
DuCasse: 	 They were producing things of t h e i r own, and some of them were
not bad. They were trying t o get together the n a t u r a l things
l i k e pinecones, driftwood, seashells, but the way they put them
together and--well, I don't know.
Riess: 	 What is Valyermo?
DuCasse: 	 Valyermo is a l i t t l e tiny place i n the Mojave Desert, up i n the
h i l l s on t h e opposite s i d e of Highway 126, from Edwards A i r Force
Base. It's called St. Andrew's Priory. It was a group of
Benedictines who had gone from S t . Andrg's i n Belgium t o China
back i n the f o r t i e s . They established a community i n t h e i n t e r i o r
of China, and were very happy there. They were way out i n the
wilds and near a l i t t l e town, j u s t a l i t t l e peasant town, and
were very much loved by the people, and i n turn loved t h e people
because they said the Chinese a r e j u s t simply wonderful people.
When the communists took over, they were ousted. The
communists kept three of t h e i r members behind, and they never
heard from them again; they don't know i f they're a l i v e o r dead.
They never could contact them.
DuCasse: The poor monks came t o California, because that was the closest
point from the other side of the world that they could get to!
And they wanted t o s e t t l e here i n California. They wanted to
s e t t l e i n northern California. And the monk who was s o r t of
i n charge of t h i s because he had t h i s great education, Father
Vincent Martin, O.S.B., t r i e d t o find a place up here. A t that
time, i n the f i f t i e s , the archbishop was not interested i n
another order coming i n ; he had enough of them and they take
the money away, they think, from the archdiocese. So they don't
r e a l l y favor other orders c o e n g in.
So they went down t o Los Angeles, and the archbishop down
there--I guess he was cardinal a t that time--was willing f o r
them t o s e t t l e . They found Hidden Springs Ranch up i n the
mountains above the desert, and it was a beautiful place. It
had its own water, i t had a spring and everything. It had a
pear and apple orchards which were producing, so they could
perhaps do that. And they s e t t l e d there.
Ethel Souza heard about them, went down t o v i s i t them, and
had a great rapport with Father Vincent Martin. He came up t o
the shop often. He did a lecture for the Catholic A r t Forum,
and he is a very highly educated man i n every way, very sensi-
t i v e t o a r t .
One season of trying t o prepare f o r and harvest the f r u i t
orchards made them r e a l i z e i t needed professionals t o handle it.
So the orchard production was turned over t o professional growers.
After some thought and discussion it was decided t o go i n t o the
production of ceramic a r t i f a c t s . There was a monk i n Belgium
who was a talented designer of international reputation, Father
Maur. H e came each summer and still does, t o design the plaques
and windchimes which a r e then produced i n the ceramic works?lop
a t the monastery. The priory g i f t shop c a r r i e s the ceramic l i n e ,
which is also placed i n many other c i t i e s throughout the United
States. This emphasis on a r t , as w e l l as the aesthetically
oriented l i t u r g i c a l functions i n the daily l i f e of the monks,
shared i n by v i s i t o r s , attracted a r t i s t s , and s t i l l does.
R i e s s : Artist-priests?
DuCasse: Well, a l l kinds of a r t i s t s . You know, laymen and priests.
Riess: Who would do t h e designing?
DuCasse: No, who j u s t wanted t o come t o t h i s place because t h e i r mass
and l i t u r g i c a l l i f e was so beautiful. They took over the old
barn, and .they made t h i s lovely l i t t l e chapel out of the barn.
DuCasse: 	 The monks with t h e i r own hands b u i l t t h e i r own a l t a r out of the
boulders they got from the creek down below. Everything they
did was r e a l , and was p a r t of what they wanted t o have f o r
themselves. Simple but very, very aesthetically satisfying.
I decided then, I ' d been fishing around, and I loved the
Franciscans and I loved the Dominicans, but I r e a l l y loved and
f e l t closer t o t h e Benedictines, and here was an art-centered
group, so I became an oblate, which is a member of t h e community
out i n the world. It's more s a t i s f y i n g than a Third Order. The
Third Order is a l i t t l e group t h a t is t i e d t o the order, but
j u s t completely separate. An oblate is a member of t h a t com-
munity, but he j u s t l i v e s out i n the world. When he goes back
t o t h a t community, he goes home.
That's what I wanted. I loved t h a t s p i r i t . So now I ' m
attached t o t h a t monastery, and I go back every year a t l e a s t .
And i t ' s beautiful. They a r e enlarging. They a r e a r e t r e a t
group. They have beautiful r e t r e a t rooms where you can go and
stay. They're b u i l t of cinder blocks, very simple, very rugged,
but with a lovely slanted ceiling.
The place is j u s t gorgeous. They're, of course, i n the
desert, but up i n the h i l l s , and they have the desert landscape
a l l around them, t h e i r own l i t t l e Shangri-la with a beautiful
pond and cottonwood trees.
They have a very beautiful g i f t shop there which has other
work than t h e i r own, but they t r y t o get the best. For instance,
t h e y ' l l have a s e r i e s of lovely b e l l s f o r the garden which a r e
handmade by a r t i s a n s i n the area. They w i l l a l s o have statuary
and paintings. Some thingss of course, a r e commercial, but the
good commercial things. And they have things from the Orient;
you know, t h e religious groups t h a t a r e connected with Rome and
the Orient and so forth. And i t ' s j u s t a hub of a c u l t u r a l
emphasis entirely. So they a r e the ones t h a t r e a l l y a r e carrying
on something of t h a t tradition.
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California 

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 

Renaissance o f Religious Art and Architecture
in the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Mario Ciampi 

PAT IN ARCHITECTURE--THE NEWMAN CENTER, BERKELEY 

An Interview Conducted by 

Micaela DuCasse and Suzanne B
. Riess 

in 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- M a r i o C i a m p i
INTERVIEW HISTORY
AN OVERVIEW OF URBAN ARCHITECTURE
A PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO ENRICHING THE RELIGIOUS ENVIRONMENT
NEWMAN CENTER, BERKELEY
Naming C i a m p i A r c h i t e c t
S i t e C h o i c e
D e s i g n P r o p o s a l s
I n t e r i o r - - T h e R e v i e w C o m m i t t e e
Stephen D e ~ t a e b l e r ' sS a n c t u a r y S c u l p t u r e
T h e Future of the S a n c t u a r y
THE CATHOLIC ART FORUM PHILOSOPHY CONTIWED
ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL, SAN FRANCISCO
INTERVIEW HISTORY
For me, Mario Ciampi has always been, and s t i l l is, the most gifted
and inspired a r c h i t e c t of our area and time. I came t o know him through
our participation a s founding members of the Catholic A r t Forum i n the mid-
1950s. Already h i s controversial Corpus C h r i s t i Church had been a spear-
head i n the movement f o r contemporary a r t and architecture i n the Church
i n the Bay Area i n the early 1950s.
It w i l l always be a deep s a t i s f a c t i o n t o m
e t h a t I had a small p a r t ,
with my colleague and founding member of the Catholic A r t Forum, June Foster
Hass, i n bringing together Mario Ciampi and Father Joseph Quinn, C.S.P.,
of Newman Hall, Berkeley, i n June's home t o discuss plans f o r t h e new Newman
Hall back i n the l a t e f i f t i e s . The f i n a l r e s u l t , a s the Newman Center t h a t
stands today a t Dwight and College Avenues i n Berkeley w i l l verify, is
indeed an inspired solution t o handling the many complex elements t h a t had
t o be considered f o r a special place and its varied a c t i v i t t e s .
Mario Ciampi i s not only an a r c h i t e c t of great imagination and daring,
but he has developed a philosophy of contemporary architectural form and
usage t h a t opens wide the doors t o a more inspired and p r a c t i c a l plan f o r
c i v i c architecture i n a l l its variety of needs. Everything he has ever done
has contributed t o the development of timeless but appropriate buildings
t h a t can adapt t o change when necessary; these q u a l i t i e s a r e b u i l t i n t o a l l
h i s plans from t h e i r inception. Often they may be ahead of t h e i r time, but
eventually they a r e proven t o be t h e r i g h t solution t o an early problem that
is only l a t e r recognized and accepted.
Mario is a l s o an a r t i s t who i s s e n s i t i v e t o a l l the aesthetic consider-
a t i o n s encompassed within the walls of h i s buildings, whether they be
religious o r not. He has always planned f o r what decoration is required,
and worked with t h e a r t i s t s involved f o r the greater perfection of t h e
completion of the whole. This is exceedingly important i n church building
i n order f o r there t o be a harmonious r e s u l t . To have seen Corpus C h r i s t i
Church, o r Newman Center newly completed, proves the wisdom behind the
vision and direction of one man coordinating harmony out of the many who
contributed t o the completion of t h e whole.
The interview took place i n Mario's studio-office on Front S t r e e t i n
San Francisco. Suzanne Riess and I shared the honors of interviewing Mario
Ciampi, a s we s a t before a scale model of h i s suggested plans f o r the
future development of Yerba Buena Project. This brought home t o us so
strongly Mario Ciampi's involvement i n the problems of c i v i c architecture,
t o which he brings a l l h i s imagination and energies undiminished! San
Francisco i s indeed fortunate t o have a native son who has devoted himself
t o i t s needs with such wholehearted enthusiasm and love.
Micaela DuCasse
Interviewer
September 1984
Piedmont, California
Regional Oral History Office 

Room 486 iii 

The Bancroft Library 

University of California 

Berkeley, California 94720 

Date of birth 

Place of birth 

Father's full name 

Father's place of birth 

Mother's full name 

Mother's place of birth 

Where did you grow up? 

W Y
MARIO J. CIAMPI and ASSOCIATES
ARCHITECTS and URBAN CONSULTANTS
BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE
MARIO J. CIAMPI, ARCHITECT, FAIA
Born
- San Francisco, California, April 27, 1907
Education
1927-29
1925-29
1930-3 2
1932-33
1935
San Francisco Architectural Club (Night College)
Apprentice draftsman
Alexander Cantin and Dodge A. Riedy ,
Architects, San Francisco
Harvard University Graduate School of
Architecture, Special Student. Winner
of two National Design Competition
Scholarships to Harvard. (1930 and 1931)
Beaux-Arts Institute of Design, Paris, France
Studied Architecture (summer)
Received Certificate to practice architecture
in State of California
AFFILIATIONS
American Institute of Architects, National, State, and local
.chapter
College of Fellows, American Institute of Architects
Board of Trustees, San Francisco Art Institute, San Francisco
Board of Regents, St. Mary's College, Moraga ,California
Board of Directors, Convent of the Good Shepherd, San Francisco
Member, San Francisco Urban Renewal Association
Member, Modern Art Council, San Francisco Museum of Art
Member, San Francisco Chamber of Commerce
Member, San Francisco Symphony Association
Member, University Art Museum Council, Berkeley, California
Family Club, San Francisco
Olympic Club, San Francisco
Lagunitas Country Club, Marin County
Serra Club of San Francisco, International
Knights of Columbus
Who's Who in America
PROTECTS
1975-.73 	 Urban Design Consultant -.Yerba Buena Center Project
for the City of San Francisco. City-owned facilities,
including Convention Center, Arena, and public open
space.
Estimated cost: $200,000,000.
Privately-owned facilities comprised of office buildings,
hotels, commercial areas, housing, and open space.
Estimated cost: $200,000,000.
Ferry Park, Phase I11 - Construct park in two block area, 

ClayfWashington Street corridor. See Phase I and 11.

Estimated cost: $800,000. 

Directed by the Civic Theatre Corporation to prepare 

preliminary designs for a Performing Arts Theatre for 

downtown San Francisco. Project to house 2,400 people; 

primarily intended for the Civic Light Opera Association. 

Estimated cost: $10,000,000. 

Developed Master Plan for the construction of an auto- 

motive parking center, a component of the Embarcadero 

Park, Steuart and Mission Streets, San Francisco. 

Estimated cost: $3,500,000. 

Retained by the Fisherman's Wharf Association, Inc.to 

prepare a development: plan for Pier #45 in the Fisher- 

man's Wharf area of San Francisco. 

Estimated cost: $35,000,000. 

Seton Provincial House, an administrative and residential 

center, Los Altos Hills, California. 

Project cost: $3,000,000. 

Appointed as Architects for the development of an office 

building complex, 19th Avenue, West San Mateo, 

California. 

Estimated cost: $19,000,000. 

Tennis Center -Olympic Club, Lakeside, San Francisco. 

Developed Master Plan and schematic design for con- 

struction of a tennis center. 

Estimated cost: $1,000,000. 

PROJECTS - Continued
Ferry Park, Phase I1 of Master Plan. Constructed
Embarcadero Plaza - Ferry Park. The San Francisco
Redevelopment Agency and the Department of Public
Works commissioned this firm in association with
Architects Lawrence Halprin & Associates, John S.
Bolles & Associates .
Cost: $1,500,000.
Menlo Circus Club -Atherton, California. Developed
'Master Plan and schematic design for expansion of 

existing tennis facilities and club house. 

Estimated cost: $750,000. 

Design consultant for Junipero Serra Freeway, Highway 

280, for the California State Division of Highways. 

Completed University Art Museum, University of 

California, Berkeley. 

A $4,000,000 project. 

Winner of a national competition. 

Commissioned by the Trustees of the California State 

Colleges to design and construct a Humanities Complex 

for the San Francisco State College. 

Estimated cost: $7,000,000. 

Commissioned by the City of San Francisco in association 

with architects, John Carl Warnecke & Associates and 

Lawrence Halprin & Associates, for reconstruction of 

Market Street. San Francisco bond issue $25,000,000. 

Construction of the Andrew S. Hallidie and Civic Center 

Plazas. Work under construction. 

Estimated cost: $10,000,000. 

Commissioned by the Trustees of the California State 

Colleges to select a site for a new State College located 

in San Mateo/Santa Clara Counties. Total enrollment -

20,000 students. 

Estimated project development: $100,000,000. 

Commissioned by the Archdiocese of Oakland to design 

and construct a Newman Center and chapel, University 

of California, Berkeley. Project completed. 

Cost: $1,500,000. 

v i i
PROTECTS - Continued
Commissioned by the City of San Francisco in association 

with Architects John Carl Warnecke & Associates a s urban 

consultants t o prepare a study of the Panhandle and Golden 

Gate Freeways. 

A $300,000,000 project. 

Commissioned by the City of San Francisco in association 

with Architects John Carl Warnecke & Associates a s urban 

planning consultants for the Market Street Development 

Plan, Stages I, 1
1and I11 - a three-year study. 

Completed campus development plan for the expansion of

Saint Mary's College. 

Estimated cost: $20,000,000. 

Projects included Science Center, Student Union, Perform- 

ing Arts Theater, Library, Housing, Rehabilitation, and 

site development.
Master Plan for entire Jefferson High School District. 

Site selection studies and site development plans for 

Pengate High School. 

A $7,000,000 project. 

Master Plan and construction of increments of Oceana High 

School, Pacifica , California. Covers approximately 60 

acres; serves a s part of the City's recreational system. 

Estimated cost: $6,000,000. 

Commissioned in 1963 to prepare design for Embarcadero 

Plaza, Phase I, Master Plan. The San Francisco Re-

development Agency and Department of Public Works com- 

missioned this firm in association with Architects Lawrence 

Halprin & Associates and John S.Bolles . 

Estimated cost: $10,000,000. 

Commissioned by the Department of City Planning to 

prepare a comprehensive master plan for downtown San 

Francisco. Plan now approximately 50% completed. 

Developed a long-range plan projecting campus growth for 

the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, for an enrollment of

5,000 students. In association with Architects Lawrence 

Lackey & Associates and Knorr-Elliott Associates. 

Estimated cost: $100,000,000. 

viii 

PROECTS - Continued
1958 	 Commissioned by the Department of City Planning to
prepare a master plan proposal for Ferry Building Water-
front Area, San Francisco. The work was developed in
collaboration with Golden Gateway Project, Area "En.
Estimated cost: $2O,OOO,OOO.
1958 	 Prepared master plan study including site selection and
construction of first increment for Siskyou Junior College,
Weed, California. Total enrollment 2,000 students.
Estimated cost: $5,500,000.
1957 	 San Francisco Golden Gateway. Special consultant to the
San Francisco Planning Commission to review the redevel-
opmentof the downtown area comprised of the area "En
and the San Francisco waterfront.
1956 	 San Francisco Flower Terminal - San Francisco.
Constructed for the San Francisco Flower Growers'
Association, California Flower Growers' and Peninsula
Flower Growers.
Project cost: $2,500,000.
1954 	 Westmoor High School, Daly City, California. Master
plan and construction of increments. Serves a s part of
City's recreational system. Covers approximately 60
acres.
~ o t a i
cost: $6,000,000.
1950 	 Hanna Center for Boys, Boyes Springs, California .
Design and construction of spiritual, cultural, and resi-
dential facilities for this center in association with Ward
and Bolles,Architects.
Estimated cost: $2,000,000.
Design and construction of the following:
Corpus Christi Church, San Francisco
Saint Peter's Church, Pacifica
Numerous recreation centers, schools, industrial, and
commercial work.
A
R
T I N ARCHITECTURE, THE N
E
W
M
A
N CENTER, BERKELEY
[Date of Interview: October 13, 19831
An Overview of Urban Architecture
Riess: I ' m interested i n the Catholic A r t Forum and the l i t u r g i c a l a r t s
movement, but I ' m a l s o interested i n t h e p i c t u r e before and since
t h a t organization came t o an end. I ' d l i k e t o hear about your
connection with t h e Catholic A r t Forum f i r s t of a l l , and then t o
go i n t o your work--or the other way around.
Ciampi: W
h
y don't we begin with t h e Catholic A r t Forum, f o r it was the
principal motivator f o r t h i s project. There w i l l be two aspects
of t h i s interview. One has t o do with my involvement i n the
Catholic A r t Forum, and then following t h a t you say you have an
i n t e r e s t i n m
y work and career and what I ' v e done and what I am
doing now.
Riess: Absolutely. I ' m very interested i n t h e Newman Center and i n a l l
of your church a r c h i t e c t u r a l work. And I ' m interested i n your
work now insofar a s t h e r e a r e probably i n t e r e s t i n g things t o say
about people who l i k e t o do public places and l i k e t o do churches
also.
Ciampi: Yes. Well, t h i s , the Yerba Buena Center project, f o r example, is
very s i g n i f i c a n t t o the city. I don't want t o digress, but I
j u s t want t o c a l l your a t t e n t i o n t o something here. [looking a t
a model] This has t o do with underground architecture. This is
Yerba Buena Center Project from Third t o Fourth S t r e e t ; t h i s i s
Mission, Howard, and Folsom, and Moscone Center is here. I am
proposing t h a t the c i t y continue with f u t u r e exhibition h a l l s ,
and then l o c a t e the stadium i n t h i s position. The stadium
they're talking about now shouldn't j u s t wander a l l over the c i t y ,
but have t h i s s p e c i f i c place f o r it. So t h a t ' s why t h i s study
has been made.
Ciampi: These a r e f u t u r e h a l l s and developments which would come i n time;
i t i s n ' t t h a t t h e c i t y would be torn apart, but these a r e com-
ponents t h a t a r e integrally related both functionally and
c u l t u r a l l y i n a way t h a t would enable the c i t y t o grow incre-
mentally. As time goes on it would become more beautiful, much
richer and more viable a s a functional city. N
o one thinks i n
these dimensions. It is a component of a comprehensive plan.
Riess: Yes. Very complex.
Ciampi: So, t h e r e ' s an awful l o t here, and when I describe i t people a r e
aghast and they say, "You're going t o t e a r the whole c i t y apart!"
NO, no.
And i n addition t o t h a t , of course, one of t h e most important
elements is the Asian Museum, which I believe should be b u i l t on
top of Moscone Hall. And t h e idea of an Asian Museum created
l i k e the great monastic centers i n Southeast Asia with gold domes
and decorative t i l e , and surrounding gardens t h a t a r e r i c h and
beautiful up on t h a t roof plateau--it would be magnificent a s
you would look down upon i t from the highrise buildings of the
c i t y . With that I ' d integrate elevated t r a n s i t on roofs, stop-
ping a t principal points, and continuing north connecting Marin
County with the Peninsula. So a l l of t h i s can be done, it's
here. Getting people t o l i s t e n and t o have patience is the
problem.
This i s where I am a t the moment, and the d i f f i c u l t y with
t h i s is t h a t I ' m i n t e r f e r i n g with everybody's work. The c i t y has
a fractured, governmental s t r u c t u r e i n which the various com-
missions and organizationsmove very independently of one another,
i n some cases very autocratically. They begin t o a r r i v e a t
decisions only t o meet t h e i r own needs, and c r e a t e problems with
what happens i n other surrounding areas.
To attempt t o coordinate and bring a l l these forces together
in a way t h a t gives continuity and order leads t o complexities
i n t h e i r relationships. I ' m i n t e r f e r i n g with them, getting i n
t h e i r way, and i t makes m
e unpopular. They don ' t want t o t a l k
t o me!
Riess: You've got a reputation f o r doing t h i s successfully.
DuCasse: Oh yes, he keeps needling them!
Ciampi: Right. I n the meantime, the f a i t h t h a t sustains me is m
y own
track record, i n which the ideas I proposed twenty years ago
we a r e implementing today. I ' m now concerned with what is
going t o happen i n twenty years. This keeps m
e involved a l l
the time.
Ciampi:
DuCasse:
Ciampi:
Riess :
Ciampi:
Riess :
Ciampi :
Riess:
Ciampi:
It's gratifying t o know t h a t a t l e a s t what I proposed twenty
years ago i n many instances is r e a l i s t i c today. Urban trans-
formation is going on, is r e a l , dynamic and i s happening. The
c i t y is reshaping and regenerating i t s e l f based on many of the
recommendations I made twenty years ago. Few people i n the
c i t y r e a l i z e it.
I f t h a t has happened before, it can happen again.
Well, 'it's certainly been happening a l l these twenty years. Year
a f t e r year I see change a l l moving toward what I have been recom-
mending over the years.
I t r a v e l a l l over the world, P a r i s and Vienna, Naples and
Milan. Each year I go I bring back a l l these ideas on the
t r a n s i t systems they're building and t h e i r relationship with
t h e functional c i t y . When I t a l k with them i n San Francisco,
they have limited knowledge of what t h i s is a l l about!
Well, you have t o be a good salesman.
Yes, f i r s t you have t o create an attainable direction f o r your-
s e l f , which is the most d i f f i c u l t , and then hopefully your
enthusiasm enables you t o s e l l it--or defer it and wait.
I love t h i s model and I could study it a l l day, but since
you've only given us an hour--.
Well, l e t ' s begin with the hour now because t h i s may have been
a diversion not included i n our agenda!
About the Catholic A r t Forum, why did you get involved a s an
architect? After a l l , it w a s mostly a r t i s t s , wasn't i t ?
Yes, t h a t ' s right. I r e c a l l t h a t when we f i r s t became involved
i n r e l i g i o u s work, o r p r i o r t o doing religious work when I got
back from college and opened my office, I found t h a t there was
a prevailing a t t i t u d e i n the city--and it was c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of
the culture--that a r t was not considered an important aspect i n
design and e s s e n t i a l t o solving problems. And realizing through
my own t r a v e l s and experiences, emotionally, t h a t a r t is an
inherent part of our environment, and because t h i s consideration
has defended i t s e l f down through time and i n h'istory, I f e l t
t h a t it would be necessary t o orient myself t h a t any solution
t h a t I would propose i n any c i v i c o r semipublic work should
include works of a r t . I n t h e design, whatever it was, a r t
should be merged with the architecture. I began with these
experiences early when we designed schools, including public
schools f o r the c i t y of San Francisco, the bay region and so on,
Ciampi :
Riess : 

Ciampi : 

Riess : 

Ciampi : 

Riess :
Ciampi:
Riess :
Ciampi :
and each time I found t h a t the concern was j u s t t o provide basic
s h e l t e r and not much concern o r any awareness of the kind of
environment t h a t was created, t h a t people could learn from
visual experiences they were exposed to.
Because of a l l these events, and the disappointments t h a t
I had, and lack of understanding of t h i s need, I f e l t t h a t any-
thing the c i t y o r the community would do towards reorienting
people t o an awakening of what l i f e is about, what environment
is about, what t h e relationships of a r t have t o do with one's
relationship t o c u l t u r a l and s o c i a l l i f e , drew me t o make an
e f f o r t i n m
y own professional work t o motivate t h i s renewal of
consciousness.
So it s t a r t e d with secular work.
Y e s , i t was an awareness t h a t was motivated by anything t h a t I
created; whether i t ' s s p i r i t u a l , s o c i a l , c u l t u r a l o r functional,
u t i l i t a r i a n , whatever it would be, a l l related around these
same concerns.
Have you always been i n the Bay Area?
Yes. I ' m a native of San Francisco, and I've always been i n the
Bay Area, other than when I went back t o college.
And your college was?
The graduate school a t Harvard University.
So often people experiencing t h e Bay Area f o r the f i r s t time a r e
shot f u l l of enthusiasm, l i k e post-World War 11, but you were
returning t o a place t h a t you f e l t was r e a l l y very dry i n terms
of an a r t i s t i c climate?
Right. And t h i s gets back t o a basic principle t h a t I have
r e l a t e d t o ever since I became involved i n advanced education
2nd m
y own r o l e a s an architect. When I got back from m
y
t r a v e l s i n Europe I was offered work i n New York City as a
designer, and I told those people at t h a t time, even though it
was a prestigious o f f i c e , t h a t I had a responsibility t o San
Francisco. I belonged i n San Francisco because t h i s was the
c i t y of m
y origin, t h i s was a c i t y I f e l t I understood, t h i s
was where I f e l t i n time I could make maximum contribution.
I f I stayed i n New York, I would be absorbed with other in-
fluences and individuals making it d i f f i c u l t t o have a positive
e f f e c t on t h e city.
Ciampi: 	 So I came t o San Francisco and determined t h a t t h i s was where
I would do m
y work, because not only was t h i s the c i t y of m
y
origins, but the c i t y of m
y experiences a s a child i n elementary
and then higher education. I always held before me the image
of the c i t y , and f e l t t h a t anything t h a t I would do would be
consistent with my h i s t o r i c knowledge of the c i t y and my
intimate understanding, and t h a t I could make a more significant
contribution here than attempt t o go t o Los Angeles, Chicago
or wherever. So these were the beginnings of m
y notion of what
t h e a r c h i t e c t should be concerned with and how t o r e l a t e one-
s e l f t o the c i t y .
A Personal Commitment t o Enriching t h e Religious Environment
Riess: 	 What a r e your memories of early impressions of Catholic Church
buildings? Is it a sense of a beautiful place, o r a sense of a
place t h a t needed t o be made more beautiful?
Ciampi: 	 Of course, naturally, f i r s t of all, being of Latin origin, m
y
experience was i n studies and a c t u a l t r a v e l i n European countries
where I saw these very beautiful churches that a r e monuments
t h a t have defended themselves so well i n history. I observed
the relationship t h a t people have t o religious a r t ; t h e immortal
quality of religious architecture seems t o expand and grow a s
the years go on. I r e l a t e d those experiences t o what I dis-
covered i n San Francisco, especially i n the religious community,
where religious leaders w e r e given authority t o build structures
f o r the parishes and community centers i n the c i t y and did not
take a r t i n t o account as a basic concern. They were r e a l l y
oriented t o prevailing a t t i t u d e s of the time, t h a t functionalism
and economics were t h e overriding considerations. And because
of t h a t I f e l t t h a t something had t o be done t o reorient the
direction of new work.
As a r e s u l t of t h a t , not only did I become involved as
chairman of a committee f o r a r t s and architecture with t h e
American I n s t i t u t e of Architects, and l a t e r established the
committee f o r the California Council on Environment, but also
I endeavored t o r e l a t e m
y a c t i v i t i e s t o whatever forces t h a t
were i n the community t o e s t a b l i s h the necessity f o r art and
architecture i n religious work. Along with t h a t I gave a
design, a r t and architecture p r i z e a t the University of C a l i -
fornia f o r years. I paid f o r some of the works of art i n
Corpus Christi, the c r u c i f i x over the a l t a r there, personally;
i n order t o motivate t h i s because there wasn't any money f o r
it, and i n many cases it created great controversies and
d i f f i c u l t i e s .
Riess: 	 Controversies about the works of a r t o r the spending of the 

money? 

Ciampi: 	 The spending of t h e money, and the creation of a proper environ- 

ment. I was dealing with influences here, where it was me

competing against some speculative contractor who could build 

so many square f e e t of space cheaper than I could do i t for. 

And i f one looked a t what t h e "spec" builder would build i n an 

impoverished religious community--surely they needed a roof 

over t h e i r heads--you know the odds were against me t o do what 

l i t t l e I hoped I could accomplish. So i t was i n t h i s manner 

t h a t I f e l t something very basic had t o happen. Better t o 

build a good building of four thousand square f e e t than a 

mediocre one of f i v e thousand square f e e t ; take the difference 

of one thousand f e e t and put i t i n the quality of t h e environ- 

ment, and then l a t e r , of course, one could add t o t h a t . 

As a r e s u l t of t h a t I encouraged people t o d i r e c t t h e i r
attentions t o enrichment and embellishment of religious a r t .
I n the early days I met Father [Vital] Vodusek, who was pastor
of the church on F e l l S t r e e t near Franklin. It was i n a t e r r i b l e
s t a t e of disrepair, and he retained m
e a s the architect t o help
r e h a b i l i t a t e it. I began t o discuss with him these concerns I
had, which were very sympathetic t o h i s own i n t e r e s t s . It was
through t h a t relationship t h a t we brought a r t i s t s i n together.
We'd already b u i l t Hanna Center f o r Boys and encountered the
problems up there, and I was involved i n other works a t the time.
So we, with other a r c h i t e c t s and a r t i s t s , f e l t t h a t the best way
to do i t would be t o establish the Catholic A r t Forum.
The Catholic A r t Forum would be a vehicle by which people
who were interested i n a r t and architecture and involved i n
religious work could come and share t h e i r experiences, i n t e r e s t s
and directions. Through t h a t we could i n v i t e then these s p i r i -
t u a l leaders i n the community t o come and share t h e i r experience
with us and we could share with them our concerns f o r introducing
a r t i n the architecture of t h e work of t h a t time. That is the
way the Catholic A r t Forum was s t a r t e d by Ruth Cravath and Mary
Erckenbrack, Elio Benvenuto and many other a r t i s t s who were so
sympathetic and enthusiastic about bringing t h i s change about.
Riess: 	 That's very interesting. Father Vodusek's name has not come up
very much.
DuCasse: 	 He comes up i n Elio Benvenuto's interview more i n d e t a i l .
Ciampf: 	 He was a very important person, because he was the one l i n k we
discovered, the common denominator between artists--and a r t i s t s
where the a r c h i t e c t is the a r t i s t too--and the religious
Ciampi: community. He was t h e one t h a t said they were inseparable, and
then exerted h i s influence i n the Catholic hierarchy, a s well
a s with other religious denominations i n the community t h a t
a l s o began t o share i n t h i s concern. It was through t h a t in-
fluence t h a t Father Vodusek was able t o e s t a b l i s h a l i a i s o n
between the a r t i s t ' s r o l e and t h a t of the c l i e n t as represented
t o these r e l i g i o u s communities, and how t a l e n t could be brought
together. The Catholic A r t Forum functioned a s a very e f f e c t i v e
vehicle f o r the work t h a t w a s done a t t h a t time.
Riess: I thought t h a t one of the things you were saying a l s o was t h a t
even some of the a r c h i t e c t s needed t o be encouraged t o use more
a r t i n t h e i r buildings.
Ciampi: Yes, I believe t h i s is so.
Newman Center, Berkeley
Naming Ciampi Architect
Riess: I know t h a t the Newman Center comes s o r t of l a t e r i n history
[I9671 but I wonder, would it be appropriate t o t a l k about t h a t
a s a case i n point, i n terms of how you had t o educate people
or how you had t o -educate a community?
Ciampi: Yes, it was a very trying and d i f f i c u l t time. A s a r e s u l t of
t h i s Catholic A r t Forum development, t h i s awareness t h a t we had
i n i t i a t e d , they established a new diocese i n Oakland, with Bishop
Begin .at head of t h a t diocese. Because of the recommendation
t h a t we had originally made t o our diocese i n San Francisco,
an a r c h i t e c t u r a l review board was appointed t o review the work
of the diocese of Oakland, composed of professionals who were
sympathetic t o a r t and architecture.
When we presented our designs f o r Newman Center f o r approval--
even before t h a t , when my name came up a s a r c h i t e c t t o be
appointed f o r the work--the Catholic A r t Forum committee gave
endorsement t o the review board t h a t I be selected as the archi-
t e c t t o design the project, because o i t h e i r knowledge of what
I had done with religious architecture i n the community p r i o r
t o t h a t time, because I had been very active i n the Catholic A r t
Forum. It was the recognition and t h e appreciation o r the ac-
ceptance of our work i n the community here t h a t gave support t o
m
y name t o be the a r c h i t e c t f o r Newman Center. That's 'how it
a l l evolved.
Riess : When it was decided t o build a
with a committee a t the center
diocese?
new Newman Center, were you working
o r was t h a t a project of the
Ciampi : I believe a t t h a t time you were involved i n some way,
you? [ t o DuCasse]
weren't
DuCasse: Yes.
Ciampi : Because you knew Father Quinn, didn't you?
DuCasse: Yes. It was June Hass, who was a l s o on t h e Catholic A r t Forum
board with me, and the two of us talked with Father Quinn and
told him t h a t t h e architect he should appoint is Mario Ciampi.
So we had a l i t t l e hand i n that!
Ciampi : Yes, very much so, because i f i t hadn't been f o r your recommen-
dation t o Father Quinn a t the time, Father Quinn would never
have called me since he didn't know me. So t h a t ' s how influen-
t i a l you were. A s a r e s u l t of t h a t introduction then I found
a man who was very sympathetic t o what we had been talking
about.
Riess : Father Quinn was the c l i e n t then?
Ciampi: He was the c l i e n t . Father Quinn was a member of the P a u l i s t
order, not a member of the l o c a l archdiocese and its clergy,
and a s a r e s u l t of t h a t he enjoyed c e r t a i n autonomous decision-
making prerogatives t h a t enabled him t o proceed with the
development of Newman Center on a r a t h e r u n i l a t e r a l basis and
not be exposed t o a l l t h e influences surrounding it. Although
a t t h a t time, you realize, most of the religious work t h a t had
been done i n Oakland was very mediocre and uninspiring.
History speaks f o r i t s e l f there. I f you consider when Newman
Center was s t a r t e d and look back a t what had happened i n Oakland
a t t h a t time, you would conclude the l e v e l of design was rather
dismal.
DuCasse: It certainly was.
Ciampi : So beginning with t h a t t r a d i t i o n , and r e l a t i n g our work t o the
old Newman Center up on Euclid, which was a handsome building,
problems existed. The university very d e f i n i t e l y wanted t o
take t h a t building s i t e and develop a l a r g e complex there,
which t o me was a r a t h e r t r a g i c development i n i t s e l f , but
t h a t ' s beside the point. Father Quinn then was obliged t o
look f o r a new location.
S i t e Choice
Ciampi: 	 W
e s t a r t e d searching f o r a new s i t e a f t e r we w e r e appointed
architects, and w e agreed t h a t we should t r y and secure land
there a t the c o m e r of College Avenue and Dwight Way which
would a l s o make i t contiguous t o the university a s its s p i r i t u a l
center, a proper s u b s t i t u t e f o r t h e old center we had on Euclid.
And i n t h a t context we then began t o study what a university
chapel should be designed t o be, consistent with t h e philosophy
of c o l l e g i a t e Newman Centers i n the United States, elsewhere. ,
What you s e e there a t Newman Center today we almost f a i l e d
t o realize. The o r i g i n a l designs we had developed f o r Newman
Center include a l a r g e seminar center and spacious l i b r a r y ,
which when we took the bids the new Bishop [Floyd L.] Begin and
h i s committee decided t h a t Father Quinn would not be able t o
pay f o r because of h i s limited financial resources. Further,
since it r e l a t e d i t s e l f t o students of the university, they
didn't have the money t o pay f o r it.
From t h e r e t h e Newman Center concept underwent a great
evolutionary change. W
e had t o transform it from the kind of
concept t h a t Father Quinn wanted, with more elaborate educa-
t i o n a l f a c i l i t i e s related t o t h e university, and transform i t
i n t o a parish center. The Oakland diocese established St.
P e t e r ' s Parish, and named Newman Center St. Peter's. They
depended on St. P e t e r ' s parochial community t o support and pay
f o r it. The bishop i n those days was very precise that the
parish pay f o r the project. And i n a l l fairness t o t h e bishop,
Newman Center had no money.
You know, t o build such a project we r e a l l y had d i f f i c u l t
times endeavoring t o r e l a t e what Father Quinn wanted t o do and
t o r e t a i n t h e concept o f . t h e o r i g i n a l c o l l e g i a t e center i n
consistency with the parochial center the bishop had in mind.
But i t was the integration of these two influences t h a t led t o
what you see today a s the Newman Center. And within t h a t context
we have b u i l t the f i r s t increment of a master plan which takes
care of f u t u r e p o s s i b i l i t i e s f o r its expansion and development.
Those opportunities a r e there and can be realized, and have t o
do with acquisition of the adjoining property.
Riess: 	 I think i t ' s probably a project you love because you l i k e t o
solve problems. [laughter]
Ciampi: 	 Right, right. I n the l i f e of the Catholic Church the lifetimes
of people a r e incidental.
Ciampi: Those d i f f i c u l t i e s t h a t we encountered a t the time, those attempts
t o prevent Newman Center from establishing it there, rejecting
it o r not even allowing it t o grow, t h e d i f f i c u l t i e s t h a t we
experienced, today a s we look back upon i t now--I presume perhaps
twenty-five years ago it was f i r s t started--these a r e r e a l i t i e s
and Newman Center w i l l i n f a c t continue t o expand. The-adjoining
lands w i l l be available and there a r e ways of developing them.
I a l s o have kept i n touch with each succeeding pastor.of the
center t o acquaint them with these opportunities.
What happened r i g h t a f t e r we received our approval t o
proceed was t h a t then Father Quinn was moved t o San Francisco,
t o Old St. Mary's, and we had a new pastor appointed.
Riess: Was t h a t Father Ritzius? [C.S.P.]
Ciampi : Father Ritzius.
R i e s s : Who a l s o sounds enlightened.
Ciampi: A very enlightened man and very dedicated, who became very dis-
enchanted with t h e demands t h a t were being made on him by t h e
Oakland chancery office. He could appreciate what we were
endeavoring t o do, and was a l s o receiving the support of Father
Quinn, who was no longer there.
Design Proposals
Riess: Was your original Newman design t h e one t h a t was b u i l t , o r i s
i t radically different? Were there design issues t h a t the diocese
became involved in?
Ciampi: This is very i n t e r e s t i n g because it was i n those days t h a t the
ecumenical movement had s t a r t e d , and t h i s trend had t o do with
abandoning the conventional church, with i t s long nave terminating
with the a l t a r a t the end, and developing a form within which
people grouped around a c e n t r a l a l t a r i n a more intimate and
ecumenical way. Oscar Niemeyer, the architect, had designed the
cathedral i n t h e c a p i t a l c i t y of ~ r a s i l i a ,
which was a c i r c u l a r
building. These were the prevailing trends. I f e l t t h a t t h i s
ecumenical concept should be established with a church i n the
round, so it was therefore a church i n the round which I f i r s t
proposed. I didn't r e a l i z e u n t i l it was published l a t e r t h a t
Oscar Niemeyer had the same idea. It's strange how t h e energy
forces, the i n t e l l e c t u a l forces, permeate people's vision,
whether you t a l k t o them o r not, but what I f e l t and what Niemeyer
f e l t was i n the same direction.
Ciampi: So I accordingly proposed a t t h a t time f o r N e h n Chapel, a
church i n the round, the h i s t o r i c tent i n the desert, the notion
of t h e Temple of God. In t h e teachings of St. Paul, "the Temple
of God is i n you," since the early temple o r church out on the
desert was a t e n t . I designed a concrete t e n t , which form i n
i t s e l f expressed the s p i r i t i n contemporary technology.
Riess: Your current Newman Center design is a
i n a way.
c i r c l e within a square,
Ciampi: That's not t h i s , i t was another design, a c i r c u l a r design.
whole thing was e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t from t h i s .
The
Niemeyer's project had r i b s going up t h i s way, and mine was
the same thing. It was amazing how consistent they were. It
had a great deal of v a l i d i t y i n i t s e l f a s a s p i r i t u a l concept
r e f l e c t i n g the ideas of the time. And Niemeyer was able t o do
it because he was building a new c i t y i n ~ r a s i l i a ,and so there-
fore he had t h i s great freedom. But we discovered when we
presented our proposal t h a t while i n i t s e l f it had v a l i d i t y , i t
d i d n ' t seem t o r e l a t e i t s e l f very comfortably with the surrounding
environment of Berkeley.
Riess: Even you f e l t t h a t ?
Ciampi: A t the time I w a s carried away more with t h e notion of the idea
t h a t the church i n the round needed t o be recorded. Also we had
placed buildings around it which would r e l a t e t o it. But the
community never r e a l l y understood, they j u s t simply looked a t
t h e preliminary sketch we made a t the time.
DuCasse: Had you b u i l t t h e Pacifica church yet, which w a s i n the round?
Ciampi: That church came l a t e r .
A t the time t h a t Father Quinn was s t i l l pastor of Newman
Center, the community and the school of architecture a l l became
involved i n t h i s question, and they campaigned t o see i f they
could discourage what they considered a far-out design. Father
Quinn was very concerned because I was alienating some of t h e
community against him, they didn't l i k e what we were going t o
do. It wasn't "appropriate" f o r Berkeley. Somehow t h e ecumen-
i c a l r e l i g i o u s movement and the l i t u r g i c a l concepts should
r e a l l y be made l e s s powerful and the community urban character
should be preserved. These people were talking about shingled
buildings and t h e kinds of buildings t h a t you see over there,
and it was understandable; these were l o g i c a l concerns.
,
Ciampi: 	 After going through two o r three of these acrimonious debates
about what the church should be, I concluded t h a t while the idea
t h a t had been presented was defensible and would have been very
appropriate with f u r t h e r study, t h a t perhaps we might take a new
approach i n which we would study a design t h a t revealed a transi-
t i o n between the monumental character of t h e university, which .
was on the one s i d e of t h e s i t e , and t h e r e s i d e n t i a l community
on t h e other. And through t h a t process then we developed the
idea of Newman Center a s you see it today, which i n f a c t is one
story and low on the r e s i d e n t i a l side, with t h e chapel on the
corner which faces t h e university. There again we discovered
t h a t i n buildings of t h i s magnitude, and projected f o r growth,
t h a t wooden buildings with shingles did not meet t h e building
codes, t h a t we had t o consider a d i f f e r e n t kind of architecture,
which i s t h e architecture you see today.
Interior--The Review Committee
Riess: 	 A s an i d e a l i s t i n terms of involving a r t and architecture, when
did you s t a r t thinking about what w a s going t o be i n there i n
terms of t h e furniture and the l i t u r g i c a l appointments and s o on?
Ciampi: 	 The position I found myself i n a t the t i m e of t h e design of Newman
Center was substantially influenced by what I had learned--not
only i n terms of the relationship of religious a r t t o architecture,
but t h e method of implementation--through m
y relationship with t h e
Catholic A r t Forum and former experiences when we b u i l t the chapel
f o r the Hanna Center f o r Boys, i n Boyes Hot Springs. ( I don't
know i f you've ever seen i t o r not, because you should go and see
i t . )
You don't mind my digressing a b i t ? It has t o do with your
questions. I have t o "go by Sausalito" a l l t h e time! [laughter]
The notion of what a church should be began there a t the 'Hanna
Center Chapel where we had Mary Erckenbrack do the s t a t i o n s of
the cross i n the S i s t e r s Chapel, and we had Ruth Cravath do the
,
c r u c i f i x inside and Our Lady of Lourdes outside, and several
other works of art t h a t we were successful i n doing. That w a s
one of t h e projects t h a t influenced the relationship of art and
architecture.
Corpus C h r i s t i Church, of course, was r e a l l y t h e great
crossover point i n m
y a r t i n architecture career. A t great
r i s k t o myself, we were able t o design t h i s controversial church,
and actually there I paid f o r t h e . c r u c i f i x over the a l t a r , which
they l a t e r removed. Elio Benvenuto's beautiful sculptures i n
the sanctuary were a l s o removed, but h i s magnificent s t a t i o n s of
the cross a r e s t i l l there.
Ciampi: Having been through t h i s process, and experiences i n t h e design
of religious architecture, when we designed Newman Center we
had basically these same ideas i n mind. And now we're talking
about a diocese which was i n its early formative stages, which
was financially impoverished and merely concerned with j u s t
the need f o r s h e l t e r . So, i n order t o convince the diocese
t h i s needed t o be done,.to include the work of a r t i n t h i s
center, the f i r s t thing I did was recommend t o Father Quinn--
who supported our ideas a t t h e time--that since t h i s was a
church oriented t o university educational a c t i v i t i e s , t h a t an
a r t commission be appointed by t h e university t o determine how
the i n t e r i o r of the building should be embellished t o include
the a r t . So t h i s procedure is p a r t of why the a r t is there.
There we invited Walter Horn, Peter Selz and I've forgotten, an
architect, t o a s s i s t i n the selection of the a r t i s t s .
Riess: Was Wurster involved i n i t ?
Ciampi: No, Wurster was not. These people and another a r t i s t established
a committee. This committee, with Richard Jorasch, who was my
design associate, and myself, then began t o do a review of
religious a r t and a r t i s t s i n the community. Not only did we want
religious a r t , but then there was the kind of religious a r t t h a t
would be appropriate and convincing t h e diocese not t o purchase
cheap conventional store-bought art versus what we thought it
should be. It took u s i n t o explanations of contemporary modern
a r t and its costs. I f we, a s a r c h i t e c t s , attempted t o defend'
it they would j u s t simply have rejected it, but coming from the
head of the department of f i n e a r t s a t the University of Cali-
fornia, the head of the university museum, and a l l of these
people who were so prestigious making t h e i r recommendations,
the c l i e n t had t o l i s t e n . A s a r e s u l t of t h a t search we
selected Stephen DeStaebler t o design the sanctuary with us.
Stephen DeStaebler's Sanctuary Sculpture
Riess: H
o
w did he come t o your attention?
Ciampi: We, with the committee, selected the names of
a r t i s t s whom we could consider f o r the work.
that decision, then we v i s i t e d t h e i r studios.
I believe four
A s a r e s u l t of
Riess: Who e l s e ? DeStaebler was awfully unknown, wasn't he3
Ciampi: Oh, he was very obscure i n those days. He had a l i t t l e hole i n
the wall studio over there i n Albany, you know, worked out of
an i n d u s t r i a l plant i n a back room there, a cold and poor
Ciampi: corrugated iron shack. That's a DeStaebler r i g h t there.
[gesturing] The committee went t o DeStaeblerls studio and had
him show us the nature of work t h a t he had done and h i s concept
of what the sanctuary could be l i k e there and how he conceived
it could be developed i n a very appropriate and beautiful way.
Then we v i s i t e d Peter Voulkos's studio--he was another candidate--
and he gave us h i s notion of what he thought i t should be.
Riess: That's interesting. Both of them are ceramic a r t i s t s .
Ciampi: Right, they both do ceramic.
Then t h e r e were two more, Robert Hudson and I ' v e forgotten
who the other a r t i s t was. W
e continued the interviews, v i s i t i n g
each one, reviewed the work, and unanimously agreed t h a t De-
Staebler would do the sanctuary. W
e then had t o convince the
diocese t h a t he should be the one t o do the work.
By the way, t h e diocese had a supervising architect, who
was a c i v i l engineer, who was principally concerned with econ-
omics and providing space. He was very c r i t i c a l of our building
design because he couldn't understand how you would design a
church i n rough concrete. U
p till then i n the buildings of the
diocese they would cover t h e concrete. The concrete was con-
sidered "raw, rugged and inhuman, and it was not appropriate
f o r a church."
"But i n Europe they build them i n stone, i n rugged stones,
heavy materials and so on," we said. Their a t t i t u d e comes a s a
r e s u l t of a kind of B r i t i s h , New England, colonial influence,
which is American culture, descending down through an Anglo-
Saxon clergy, who a r e p r e t t y much the people who have been estab-
l i s h i n g the character of the environment i n churches h i s t o r i c a l l y
i n t h i s area. Reluctantly they agreed t o approve the church
b u i l t i n concrete, since we couldn't afford money f o r f i n e
materials, s o we actually constructed the f i n i s h e s and rustica-
tions by the use of forms i n many ways. That's why you see the
t e x t u r a l surfaces, which we believe a r e very successful.
Then t o get approval from the diocese f o r a contract of
$15,000 f o r DeStaebler, we explained t h a t a f t e r a l l you had t o
buy an a l t a r someplace, i n marble, wood, and you had t o buy a
hand-me-down corpus , tabernacle, l e c t e r n and the president's
chair, and t h a t t h a t could cost $15,000, and a l s o the f l o o r of
the sanctuary, carpets, t i l e o r whatever they use. So based on
t h a t they then agreed t o award Stephen DeStaebler the commission
t o be the sculptor. DeStaebler then proceeded t o make the
designs and execute the work in collaboration with our office.
Ciampi: Then when he came f o r t h w i t h h i s design i n the form of a model,
i t had t o receive approval, and t h a t required a great deal of
persuasion.
Riess: Do you think t h a t any p a r t of t h e i r concern w a s - t h a t it j u s t
simply didn't look Catholic enough, t h a t it was not recognizably
religious?
Ciampi: Well, it j u s t wasn't consistent with t h e i r notion of what a
:church sanctuary should be, compared t o other, t r a d i t i o n a l
directions which had been taken by the church t h a t we've seen.
But there was a very strong character i n what DeStaebler was
doing--it was ceramic a r t b u i l t i n t h e ground t o look very
natural, very logical and d i f f i c u l t t o be c r i t i c a l of, so they
f i n a l l y agreed they would allow him t o proceed. The corpus
i t s e l f was the r e p l i c a of a very l i f e - l i k e average human being;
it wasn't a sculpture t h a t would give them concern, something
pe.rhaps l i k e what Elio did f o r others which was more abstract,
t h a t had become so controversial i t was rejected by the bishop
himself.
DuCasse: Was t h a t Stephen's own
n a t u r a l i s t i c approach.
concept from the beginning, having the
Ciampi: Oh, Yes.
DuCasse: Because t h a t t o me is j u s t a stroke of genius throughout.
Ciampi: It's a stroke of genius, i t ' s beautiful.
So DeStaebler proceeded with h i s model studies. W
e did
t h i s i n stages, and then t h i s was carried out, and, of course,
we were very c l o s e t o the development work. Father Quinn would
come with us a t regular i n t e r v a l s t o see the early studies t h a t
were done t o give approval and express h i s notion of how
appropriate he thought the a r t was. L i t t l e by l i t t l e we
developed the sanctuary.
And also i n the chapel t h a t ' s not finished there's supposed
t o be i n addition a very wonderful ceramic work of a r t , espec-
i a l l y on College Avenue; t h e r e ' s a great niche i n there t h a t
you see, and we hope t o get t h a t some day. This could be a
project now, t o s t a r t up a fund f o r t h a t t h a t they could contri-
bute to. Also i n the entrance there i s a niche f o r anotlier
beautiful ceramic sculpture of a kind t h a t great sculptors
have done, powerful i n form and color--because without it the
church is inclined t o be a l i t t l e drab.
Riess:
Ciampi:
Riess:
Ciampi :
Riess :
Ciampi:
Riess :
The Future of the Sanctuary
It i s d i f f i c u l t I think f o r much of the congregation t o understand
the whole s p i r i t of it. There seems t o be a need t o put up plants
and banners and things t o make people happy.
Right.
And then the organ, we had a $45,000 organ included, which
today may be worth about $100,000. W
e developed an organ design
which had t o do with t h e e x i s t i n g configurations on the south
s i d e of the building. Did you see t h a t ? It's blanked off by
wooden panels t h a t a r e painted i n color; when you remove them
the organ l o f t i s ready f o r t h e organ i n s t a l l a t i o n .
What can be done about that?
Well, i t ' s a l l there waiting t o be done. A l l you have t o do is
decide t h i s is an incomplete project. I ' m recommending t h a t the
parish over there, through i t s leadership, appoint a f i n e a r t s
committee which should establish a development fund which the
community can contribute to. They can have s o c i a l events,
r a f f l e s , they can approach people who a r e very wealthy and could
give them money; i f the parish would only take the time, I ' m
sure they would be delighted t o do it, and t h i s organ could be
dedicated t o them.
This organ which we have designed--in collaboration with
the organ manufacturers--is an innovative work of sculpture.
In a l l the organs t h a t you see which a r e conventional the pipes
come down on the sides and the organ is an element t h a t is
applied against the wall. W
e said, ''Why can't we take those
pipes and turn them i n t o the room, so they may cascade down i n
a d i f f e r e n t way and become a more powerful work of art?"
These pipes would actually project out i n t o the room. W
e see
no reason a t a l l not t o do it. So we see not only projecting
the organ i n t o the space, but creating a metal sculpture which
could be magnificent .
It is a magnificent idea. But when I talked t o Stephen
~ e ~ t a e b l e r ,
he said t h a t there's a move afoot t o remove h i s
s t u f f .*
Yes. I had not heard.
So how a r e you going t o get t h i s s p i r i t t h a t you're talking
about underway a t the same time?
*See pp. 275-278.
Ciampi: Well, t h i s has t o do with social-cultural behavior and growth.
Social-cultural behavior is very dynamic and moves from one
position of what the community advocates t o another one. That
which i s black today may be white tomorrow, and t h i s is what we
l i v e with.
There was an element dominating t h e community a t t h e t i m e
which were i r r e l i g i o u s , they were against Newman Center. They
were sleeping around i t a t night, and the pastors had t o allow
i t , up i n the terrace. They were abusing and mutilating the
center when t h e church would close i t s doors so they couldn't
get i n , and it was s o oppressive they were c a l l i n g it "Fort
Newman." This was Fort Newman a t the time, and y e t t h i s is t h e
history of the church. But now t h a t a t t i t u d e has changed, and
people a r e beginning t o accept it. It's very popular f o r
marriages. I understand a t l e a s t a few years ago you couldn't
reserve the chapel f o r a t l e a s t a year because i t was so popular.
Riess: I didn't even know marriage was t h a t popular. [laughter]
Ciampi: Well, i n those days, i n t h a t church, I understand you had t o
wait a year. So there t h e church went through t h a t cycle, and
now today t h i s is a l l changing, where t h e notion of the idea
of a r t i n architecture is becoming important, and people a r e
r e a l i z i n g it. And these works of a r t a r e s t i l l t o be reali-zed
i n Newman Center.
The Catholic A r t Forum Philosophy Continued
Riess: You think t h a t the notion of a r t i n architecture is important
today, and the Catholic A r t Forum got i t s e l f together i n 1953
t o propound j u s t such a notion. Do you think t h a t the Catholic
A r t Forum was a f a i l u r e i n i t s undertaking?
Ciampi: No, not a t a l l , not a t a l l . It did not f a i l because without
its influence the things t h a t we have f o r us today, f o r good o r
bad, would not be here. It served a purpose i n i t s time; today
the Catholic A r t Forum is not a viable medium by which these
works can be done. The Catholic A r t Forum had t o d e a l with the
problems generated within the kind of work t h a t was done i n the
archdiocese of t h i s region. And since t h a t time the church it-
s e l f has changed its religious position, so t h a t now we need
an ecumenical council. Ecumenism i s the influence, so while we
no longer have the Catholic A r t Forum, we should have an
"Ecumenical A r t Council," embracing a l l of the denominations
and a l l forms of religious a c t i v i t y .
Ciampi: 	 M
y t h r u s t today i s s t i l l a continuation and a projection of the
Catholic A r t Forum i n which I see the immediate opportunity
before the people of t h i s region t o d i r e c t themselves t o ecu-
menism. And ecumenism has t o be identified through the resources
t h a t a community has. For me I see today the next center of
ecumenical development w i l l be i n Yerba Buena Center. Yerba
Buena Center there has the old St. Patrick's Church which e x i s t s
there i n i s o l a t i o n , you know, lonely, ignored and abused, with
the pastor within it struggling f o r survival. But St. Patrick's
i s going t o be,surrounded by hundreds of millions of d o l l a r s
worth of new work, which is now i n its formative stages. The
pastor i s concerned with t h i s development because it is not
integrated i n what's about t o happen. So there i t is, you know,
t h i s individual struggling f o r -survival and requiring t h e help
of the community, and the community needing -
him.
And based on what's happened there and m
y t r a v e l s t o
India and Egypt-in recent years I found very powerful forces
t h a t a r e asserting themselves i n Buddhism, i n Sufism, and the
Mohammedan religions, o r i n t h e primitive cultures of Africa;
wherever you go a l l over the world, the urge f o r world peace
i s the most powerful force t h a t exists.
So I a m recommending, and I ' m going t o begin work on i t
r i g h t away, a "Center of Understanding" contiguous t o St.
Patrick's Church. The "Center of Understanding" I hope w i l l
draw people i n a way so t h a t contiguous t o the church there w i l l
be t h i s great open space. The Catholic church w i l l be remodeled.
But with t h a t these f a c i l i t i e s w i l l be b u i l t so t h a t the "Center
of Understanding" movement w i l l be a movement oriented toward
bringing world peace, which is t h e most powerful concern we have
and responsibility t h a t we have, which I f e e l the community w i l l
respond to. That's m
y immediate work, which comes a s a continu-
a t i o n of the work t h a t we began i n the early days with the
Catholic Church and the Catholic A r t Forum.
DuCasse: 	 It's very d e f i n i t e l y a contemporary need.
Ciampi: 	 Yes. So here I ' m r i g h t now going t o be recommending--I can't
say too much about it now because I ' m very much involved
d i r e c t l y with important people i n the religious community--
but I ' m going t o t r y and bring these people together. And
they're here and they're waiting and want t o do it. It was
Sadat who proposed the "Temple of Understanding" be b u i l t i n
Egypt. The same i n India, and i n t h e Middle East. I ' v e been
there and talked with them. W
e have no visual manifestation
of t h i s need. There is no s i g n i f i c a n t e f f o r t being made
toward world peace anywhere, and the way we're going t o bring
about change is construct t h i s kind of a center.
- -
DuCasse: 	 That has been such a perfect process of your thinking and of 

your working. 

Ciampi: 	 A process of evolutionary change i n the community, a process of
evolutionary s p i r i t u a l growth, awareness, an evolutionary change
within me i n which I f e e l I've grown and have come t o under-
stand wGre 3 r e s p o n s i b i l ~ s
are, the unique t a l e n t s I can
contribute. W
e b u i l t t h e a r t museum a t the University of C a l i -
fornia. It was a national competition. W
e were here. They
could have given us the work, however we entered a national
competition of 367 competitors, won it and b u i l t it!
DuCasse: 	 And here you were here already.
Ciampi: 	 I was here a l l t h e time! When Newman Center was completed, the
people i n the community were saying,"Thatls the best building
we have. Why don't you design the musuem?" [laughing]
Riess: 	 Awhile ago, Kai gave me t h i s issue of Liturgical A r t s Magazine.
I n i t i s the project called the Prototype Church. Do you know
t h i s ? It was the work of Jean ~ a b a t u t -
Hnd ~ n d r 6
~ i r a r d .
Ciampi: 	 Oh yes, the two design c r i t i c s back a t Princeton.
Riess: 	 That seems a l i t t l e b i t what you had i n mind, t h a t round chur.ch
on t h e corner, though t h e i r s is a transparent s t r u c t u r e with
a tremendous amount of color.
Ciampi: 	 That was the f i r s t proposal f o r Newman Center. That was i t ,
a l l glass surrounded by the garden, the s p i r i t u a l garden. Once
you arrived i n the garden, which was walled separating you
from the s t r e e t , then you walked i n t o t h i s glassed-in sanctuary,
which was the church.
Riess: 	 Do you think Labatut and ~ n d r g
Girard were very important i n
influencing a kind of thinking about churches?
Ciampi: 	 They were i n f l u e n t i a l i n t h e i r own way f o r the commissions
they had t o find solutions for. Yes, they were an important
p a r t of t h i s movement.
Riess: 	 I ' m interested i n what other church buildings o r religious
buildings you p a r t i c u l a r l y l i k e i n the Bay Area?
Ciampi: 	 F i r s t of a l l , of course, we have the h i s t o r i c F i r s t Church of
Christ, S c i e n t i s t by Bernard Maybeck i n Berkeley. Then another
beautiful church i n the Bay Area is the one over i n Tiburon by
Warren C a l l i s t e r . Mario Corbett's church i n Pacifica. Then,
of course, our own Corpus C h r i s t i Church which we b u i l t .
DuCasse: That was a very controversial building! Was t h a t the f i r s t
religious building t h a t you b u i l t , o r had you done others before
t h a t ?
Ciampi: Well, we
Springs.
had j u s t completed the Hanna Center Chapel i n Boyes
DuCasse: Ah, I see. But t h a t was your f i r s t i n San Francisco?
Ciampi: Yes.
St. Mary's Cathedral, San Francisco
Riess: What about St. Mary's
the a r c h i t e c t ?
Cathedral? You were chosen originally a s
Ciampi: Yes. A t t h a t time a commission was appointed by the archdiocese
t o do a search and s e l e c t t h e a r c h i t e c t t o design the new St.
Mary's Cathedral. After t h i s search, i t was unanimously agreed
by the commission t h a t I should be appointed a s the a r c h i t e c t
f o r the new cathedral. I had recommended t o the church t h a t
the famous s t r u c t u r a l engineer Pier Nervi and I design it
together, since Nervi and I were very good friends. Our work
was compatible.
After we were recommended f o r t h i s , a new archbishop was
appointed, and he f e l t t h a t t h e work t h a t we were doing would
be too f a r out, and he wanted t o construct a cathedral t h a t was
more conservative. So the recommendation of t h e committee w a s
rejected by t h e archbishop, and a firm of a r c h i t e c t s made up of
McSweeney and Ryan and Lee were appointed t o do t h e cathedral.
The reason they needed a new cathedral was because the
Old St. Mary's Cathedral on Van Ness Avenue had burned down.
Angus McSweeney and h i s firm were retained t o do the f i r e recon-
struction of the cathedral. However, the insurance company
decided t h a t based on the enormous costs involved i n the recon-
struction of t h i s old brick building--the roof had caved in--
t h a t they would build a new cathedral instead. And so the
Redevelopment Agency made available a s i t e , which they called
Cathedral H i l l . I n those days Cathedral H i l l was seen a s t h i s
cathedral complex up on the top of the h i l l . The Redevelopment
Agency developers around t h a t project, instead .of r e l a t i n g t o
the designs of Cathedral H i l l , they b u i l t these highrise towers
around it, ignoring the position of prominence the cathedral
would have had t o the cityscape.
Ciampi: 	 So m
y notion of a cathedral i n those days had t o do with--.
Well, f i r s t of a l l m
y recommendation was t h a t you should not
build a cathedral on Cathedral H i l l r i g h t away, but you should
appoint a commission t o s e l e c t a proper s i t e , and I said t h a t
the s i t e f o r t h e cathedral should be chosen a f t e r various s i t e s
were evaluated. One s i t e t h a t I had i n mind was up on Twin
Peaks. Where the two peaks come together there's a swale, and
up on t h a t swale between t h e two peaks a suspension structure
could be extended and within t h a t you would experience a
dramatic panoramic view of the c i t y .
Riess: 	 Well, you would need Nervi f o r that! [laughing]
Ciampi: 	 Exactly. That could have been done. I did not think t h a t the
redevelopment s i t e i n t h a t location was the r i g h t place f o r a
cathedral because i t w a s out of the way, inaccessible, and
related t o a hodgepodge of work t h a t hasn't developed i n t o a
very a t t r a c t i v e environment. I was a l s o recommending t h a t it
be b u i l t i n Yerba Buena Center s o you would have an urban
cathedral convenient t o t h e rapid t r a n s i t system; wherever you
were i n the Bay Region you could come f o r the services, and i t
would be downtown i n a proper location, an urban cathedral
incorporated i n the pedestrian network. I saw t h i s a s a very
powerful low-key kind of building t h a t depressed down i n t o the
ground.
But instead now you have a s i t u a t i o n i n which t h a t church
is isolated i n a windy plateau. A s I was saying, "If you're
going t o build i t up there, it should have been located i n an
enclosed plaza o r atrium i n which you have some screening around
it, and not a s i t is, i n an exposed parking area as you walk in"
(which you have now). Because of these limitations, and poor
environment, people j u s t won't use i t and i t diminishes the
desire f o r the s p i r i t u a l community t o congregate i n a great
cathedral complex such a s a r e found i n Europe.
I n those days they held an international competition f o r
the cathedral i n Syracusa, Sicily. The winning design f o r the
cathedral which was t o be build i n Syracusa was a similar kind
of an idea which I proposed. You can find i t i n the record.
The a t t i t u d e i n San Francisco was, "Well, we don't have the time.
W
e want a cathedral, but we don't want t o wait. To do a l l t'his
work i s not necessary, we're going t o build i t here."
So the decision was t o build i t r i g h t now. "We're going t o
have the plans finished i n s i x months, and we're going t o s t a r t
construction r i g h t away." And I said, "If you don't s e l e c t the
r i g h t s i t e - t h e n you're not going t o give the cathedral the proper
position i t deserves i n our urban environment. Further, it is
going t o take a t l e a s t s i x months t o w r i t e the program f o r the
cathedral. "
Ciampi: 	 A cathedral is a great work i n history, you know, one of those
r a r e opportunities we have. It would require a l i t u r g i c a l
commission t o write the program. You would require two commis-
sions: one t h a t s e l e c t s the proper s i t e and--entirely d i f f e r e n t
people--one t o develop the program f o r its design construction
and future incremental growth. It is not conceivable t h a t a
complete cathedral complex be b u i l t a t one time.
The answer was, "
W
e haven't got time for a l l t h a t , we want
t o s t a r t construction i n s i x months.'' So they selected the
architect, who agreed. "We'll get you finished plans i n six
months. "
These a r c h i t e c t s s e t out t o do i t , and they discovered
however t h a t each design they proposed was rejected. A s I r e c a l l
they developed over nineteen different designs f o r the cathedral
over a period, I don't know, of a year, year and a h a l f , and they
couldn't get an approval.
I was i n Rome a t t h e t i m e talking t o the head of t h e Pontifi-
c a l Commission i n Rome about t h i s , talking about what a cathedral
should represent i n San Francisco and t h e i r feelings about it.
There was a competitive s i t u a t i o n going on between t h e Church
hierarchy here i n San Francisco concerned about m
y going back
there and talking t o t h e commission. As you may know, I speak
I t a l i a n fluently and had been talking t o them and t h a t , of
course, wasn't accepted very w e l l . [laughter]
So these conversations were going on, and I had contacted
m
y friend Pier Nervi, t h e world-famous s t r u c t u r a l engineer i n
Rome. He indicated he would be very happy t o p a r t i c i p a t e with
m e i n the design of our cathedral. However, i n t h e meantime
these other a r c h i t e c t s had already been appointed and were
attempting t o find an acceptable solution, which as t i m e went
on they were not capable of doing.
Finally t h e archbishop made another t r i p t o Rome, and I
m e t with him there. Father Vodusek, a s member of the rejected
a r c h i t e c t selection commission, said afterward, "I thought you
were going t o Rome t o meet with t h e Pontifical Commission with
you and Nervi t o be t h e a r c h i t e c t s for t h e new cathedral."
I said, "No," I wouldn't be, because we had very d i f f e r e n t
opinions about what a contemporary cathedral should be. The
archbishop and I had discussed t h i s i n our early conversations
and he differed very diametrically from what I thought i t should
be, of course. H e wanted t o build a pseudo-Spanish type cathedral.
So a s a r e s u l t of t h i s difference I was not considered f o r t h e
commission.
Ciampi: 	 Following t h i s I met with Pier Nervi and said t o him, "There a r e
a group of appointed a r c h i t e c t s a l l attempting t o design the
project and unable t o secure its approval. I f you want t o j o i n
t h a t group, from m
y point of view t h a t ' s fine, but I 'm going t o
withdraw from our agreement because we have so many cooks i n
the soup, we can't possibly do a proper design i n t h i s context."
I had sent m
y prospectus i n t o the archbishop s e t t i n g f o r t h
t h e j o i n t venture of Nervi and myself. I said t o the archbishop,
"If you wish t o have Nervi without me, t h a t ' s f i n e with me." And
I said t o Nervi. "If you want t o work with them t h a t ' s f i n e ,
except you know a s s t r u c t u r a l engineer that you have t o abide by
the decisions of what those a r c h i t e c t s want t o do."
Then t h e a r c h i t e c t s decided t h a t they would t a l k t o P i e t r o
Belluschi, who was dean of the school of architecture a t MIT.
The archbishop, who liked P i e r Nervi, then formed a j o i n t venture
f o r them, Belluschi and Nervi.
Nervi had s a i d t o me, "If the archbishop wants me t o design
the cathedral, t h i s is the design I ' m going t o have. I t ' s going
t o be constructed of four hyperbolic-parabolic s h e l l s coming
together i n the form of a cross. That is what the design f o r
the dome i s going t o be." I said, "That sounds a s though i t has
great p o s s i b i l i t i e s ."-
I n the meantime, the a r c h i t e c t s were designing the plan of
the cathedral underneath. What f i n a l l y emerged is t h e plan
of t h e cathedral by the o r i g i n a l a r c h i t e c t s and Belluschi which
the archbishop wanted underneath, with t h i s hat over i t which
is P i e r Nervi's four hyperbolic paraboloids! [laughter] You
may go and you look a t it, and t h a t ' s what you w i l l see.
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California 

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 

Renaissance of Rel5,gious Art and Architecture 

in the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968 

Stephen DeStaebler 

THE NEWMAN CENTER SANCTUARY
An Interview Conducted by 

Suzanne B. Riess 

in 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Stephen DeSt a e b l e r
INTERVIEW HISTORY
ENCOUNTERS WITH CHURCH ARCHITECTURE
Bay Area
Europe
THE N
E
W
M
A
N CENTER SACTUARY
Meeting Father R i t z i u s
The Scheme
The Approval
The F i r i n g
The I n s t a l l a t i o n
The Congregation's Reception, and Some Hindsights
The Challenge of t h e Work
The Crucifx
The Bottom Line
STEPHEN DESTAEBLER'S BACKGROUND, AND INFLUENCES
Experiencing Places of Worship
A r t History and Religion Studies a t Princeton
The Mesh of t h e Visual and Aural
INTERVIEW HISTORY
This interview with Stephen DeStaebler, an extraordinarily creative
and vigorous ceramic a r t i s t , i s i n t h e main a carefully considered descrip-
t i o n by Mr. DeStaebler of the Holy S p i r i t Sanctuary of t h e Newman Center
Chapel, i n Berkeley. He takes t h e reader through the history, from f i r s t
contact with h i s f u t u r e c l i e n t s down i n the bone-chilling studio by the Bay,
t o the red-hot heat and tension of t h e f i r i n g , t o the mixed warmth of the
reception of the work by the congregation, t o the presently cool acknowledg-
ment of t h i s l i t u r g i c a l a r t piece by the current users.
The richness of t h e interview i s a r e s u l t of Mr. DeStaeblerls thoughtful
approach t o h i s work and h i s s e l f . He was a s conscious a s one could wish
an a r t i s t given a religious work t o be of the nature and seriousness of the
task. Certainly it came t o him a t "the r i g h t t i m e . " He was grateful f o r
the commission and brought t o it an exceptional background.
The description of getting a l l those tons of clay i n and out of the
k i l n and up on t h e "mound" and on the wall i s dramatic. But i t i s enriched
by knowing t h a t Stephen DeStaebler went t o I t a l y when he was nineteen and
was overwhelmed by the richness of l i g h t and d e t a i l and kinesthetic pleasures
of the Byzactine churches. It is a l s o enriched by knowing he received an
education i n every subject t h a t might be considered desirable a s an adjunct
t o sanctuary-making. He was f i r s t an a r t history and then a religion major
a t Princeton; he was a member of the college choir, s e n s i t i v e t o antiphonal
singing; he was a boy a r t i s t and t e n t a t i v e stained glass maker.
It i s a pleasure t o have t h i s interview p a r t of the l i t u r g i c a l a r t
s e r i e s , and t o have come t o DeStaebler with a topic t h a t he seemed t o
r e l i s h considering. As he says, he has not had a commission l i k e t h a t one
since. The interview took place i n DeStaebler's home, an unusual, very
pleasurable work of a r t i t s e l f .
Suzanne B. R i e s s
Interviewer-Ed itor'
October 1984
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California a t Berkeley
DeStaebler
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library
ii
Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please p r i n t o r w r i t e clearly)
Your f u l l name STZ- LUCK >C S
T
-
L
-
Date of b i r t h h j l k ~ .
24,
1933 Place of b i r t h %
-
. b u t '
5 ,
. N\o
Father's f u l l name b~
b~&%WLML
Birthplace
Occupation V l c E - b i ~ ~ h l ~ ;
?~RR&A-\CAL
Mother's f u l l name i(b L1E-E b b i 3 t - r ~ . & [ C Z &c ? L E R
Birthplace G
u
- VI u ,
mere did you grow up ? hq0
LR\CLUOO~),
Present cornunity ~ E W E I E Y , CA
Education h I N ~ d . A.B. 149
UU\UWSCTY
Special i n t e r e s t s a c t i v i t i e s
iii 

STEPHEN D
E STAEBLER

BORN :
S t . Louis, Missouri.
EDUCATION:
1950-54
1951
Princeton University, Princeton, New J e r s e y ,
A.B.
Black Mountain College, North Carolina, s t u d i e d
w i t h Ben Shahn.
U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a , Berkeley, C a l i f o r n i a ,
General Secondary Teaching C r e d e n t i a l .
U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a , Berkeley, C a l i f o r n i a ,
M.A.
TEACHING:
Chadwick School, R o l l i n g H i l l s , C a l i f o r n i a .
San Francisco S t a t e College, San Francisco,
C a l i f o r n i a .
San Francisco A r t I n s t i t u t e , C a l i f o r n i a .
San Francisco S t a t e University, C a l i f o r n i a .
A
W
A
R
D
S:
1964
1965
1979
1981
F u l b r i g h t Scholarship t o I t a l y (awarded, b u t
d e c l i n e d by t h e a r t i s t ) .
Richmond A r t Center, Richmond, C a l i f o r n i a ,
P r i z e f o r Ceramic Sculpture.
Richmond A r t Center, Richmond, C a l i f o r n i a ,
F i r s t P r i z e f o r Sculpture.
San F r a n c i s c o Annual, San Francisco, C a l i f o r n i a ,
S c u l p t u r e P r i z e .
The Oakland Museum, F i r s t C a l i f o r n i a Craftsmen's
B i e n n i a l E x h i b i t , M e r i t Award.
San Francisco A r t F e s t i v a l , San Francisco,
C a l i f o r n i a , Major Purchase Award.
Walnut Creek A r t F e s t i v a l , Walnut Creek, Cali-
f o r n i a , Grant Purchase Award.
Zellerbach Memorial P r i z e i n t h e A r t of Sculpture.
National Endowment f o r t h e A r t s , A r t i s t s ' Fellow-
ship.
National Endowment f o r t h e A r t s , A r t i s t s ' Fellow-
s h i p .
1983 Guggenheim Fellowship
1980-81
1981-82
SOLO EXHIBITIONS:
STEPHEN DE STAEBLER - 2
Welded Bronze Wall Sculpture, Consumers Coopera- 

t i v e of Berkeley, California. 

"Moab I," a stoneware clay wall r e l i e f commis-

sioned by Prudential Federal Savings and 

Loan Association, S a l t Lake City, Utah. 

Altar, tabernacle, lectern, priest's chair, and
l a r g e c r u c i f i x commissioned f o r t h e Sanctuary
of t h e Holy S p i r i t Chapel, Newman Hall,
Berkeley, California. A l l f i v e pieces are
of stoneware clay.
"Farnsworth Memorial Sculpture, l1 stoneware clay 

sculpture commissioned f o r The Oakland Museum, 

Oakland, California, by the Women's A r t League 

of t h e East Bay. 

Seating Environment, stoneware clay sculpture
commissioned f o r t h e Lower Lobby of t h e Univer-
s i t y A r t Museum, University of California,
Berkeley, California.
Water Sculpture, constructed of stoneware clay
and concrete commissioned f o r t h e Bay Area
Rapid Transit D i s t r i c t , Concord Station,
Concord, California.
"Wall Canyon," monumental wall sculpture of high 

f i r e d ceramic commissioned f o r t h e Bay Area 

Rapid Transit D i s t r i c t , Embarcadero Station, 

San Francisco, California. 

Ceramic Sculpture, New S t a t e Building Department
of General Services, San Jose, California.
"Canyon," a stoneware clay sculpture commissioned
by P a c i f i c Mutual Insurance Company f o r t h e
P a c i f i c Mutual Plaza, Newport Beach, California.
The Oakland Museum, Oakland, California. 

James W i l l i s Gallery, San Francisco, California. 

James W i l l i s Gallery, San Francisco, California. 

James W i l l i s Gallery, San Francisco, California. 

Winona S t a t e University, Winona, Minnesota. 

Hansen F u l l e r Goldeen Gallery, San Francisco, 

California.
Sheehan Gallery, Whitman College, Walla Walla,
Washington.
Hansen F u l l e r Goldeen Gallery, San Francisco,
California .
John Berggruen Gallery, San Francisco, California.
Tortue Gallery, Santa Monica, California.
T
H
E NEWMAN CENTER SANCTUARY
[Date of Interview: June 1, 19831
Encounters with Church Architecture
Bay Area
DeStaebler: 	 In m
y own mind I don't have a very strong sense of Bay Area
church architecture. I t ' s studded, I ' m afraid, with a few
glaring examples of what I f e e l to be bad church architecture,
great concrete things t h a t throw stained glass a t the congre-
gation indiscriminately, a broadside of color, without r e a l l y
much content. That is an example of the kind of design t h a t
I ' m sorry t o see having emerged out of t h e period we're
talking about.
I think [Charles Warren] C a l l i s t e r , on the other hand, i s
r e a l l y a s e n s i t i v e architect. I think h i s Unitarian Church
project there on Geary and Franklin is r e a l l y a masterpiece.
That's amazing s e n s i t i v i t y t o the e x i s t i n g church, which is not
desecrated i n any sense by what he did. It's enhanced, and y e t
h i s s t y l e doesn't t r y t o imitate the older church. That's a
f i n e example.
Riess : 	 I know t h a t what C a l l i s t e r wanted t o do i n t h a t Unitarian
Church addition was -
not t o put i n stained glass--I think they
ended up with stained glass because t h a t ' s what the congrega-
tion wanted--he wanted macrame-type hangings, rope hangings?
DeStaebler: 	 Is t h a t r i g h t ?
Well, you know, I came rather close t o doing a commission
f o r the church. One of h i s a s s i s t a n t architects, [Ian McCleod]
was a friend of an a r c h i t e c t I got t o know a t Cal--I'll think
DeStaebler: 	 of h i s name i f I j u s t let it r i d e i n my mind, but he's a
very gifted designer--and he came over and talked t o me about
doing the fenestration f o r the major window t h a t faces on
Franklin. It's about a fifteen-foot window. I don't believe
i t ' s i n a worship area; I think i t ' s more i n the o f f i c e area.
And he was talking with me about doing a ceramic fenestration
which would then hold what I think was going t o be c l e a r glass;
I don't think there was any t a l k of stained glass. But it
never got past the t a l k stage, and every time I drive by there
I wonder what E might have done and whether i t would have
worked i n t h a t s e t t i n g o r not.
It would have been an extremely demanding assignment
because the f i r e d clay shrinks about 12 percent from t h e time
i t ' s w e t t o t h e t i m e i t ' s f i r e d , and the f i t t i n g of the com-
ponents would have had t o have been very exact i n order t o
mesh with t h e glass. I could have done i t , because I ' v e done
other kinds of demanding s o r t s of f i r e d clay work, such a s
fireplaces, but it wouldn't have been, I don't think, my forte.
There was a time I was extremely interested i n stained
glass. That l i t t l e window over the door I did when I was
about eighteen. I was t o t a l l y absorbed i n stained glass. I
learned how t o do it by myself; there was no c l a s s o r anything
where I was i n school. I n a recent Princeton alumni magazine
on the cover there was one of t h e Princeton Chapel transept
windows, and God, I f e l l i n love with i t a l l over again. It's
not Gothic glass, i t ' s not the greatest of stained glass, but
i t ' s very good glass, and i t was j u s t overwhelming t o me a t
t h a t time i n m
y l i f e .
I think, given s l i g h t l y d i f f e r e n t influences, I could
have gone i n t h a t direction, although making t h e stained glass
myself palled a f t e r a while. I made about three o r four
windows and realized t h a t f o r every hour spent i n the creative
p a r t of it there were j u s t hours and hours of tedious work,
which i n t r a d i t i o n a l stained glass studios is done by special-
ized craftsmen.
But t h i s is a l i t t l e b i t f a r a f i e l d . I j u s t wanted t o
mention t h a t I came very close t o being involved with C a l l i s t e r
i n t h a t project.
Riess : 	 What happened i n t h a t ?
DeStaebler: 	 W e l l , I don't know whether it was more dragging f e e t on m
y
p a r t o r on t h e i r part. I never did t a l k with C a l l i s t e r , and
I don't know whether i t was ever something t h a t he was excited
about; it might have been h i s a s s i s t a n t ' s idea pxmarily.
DeStaebler: That would have been about 1966 or so? It was before the
Newman Center commission came along, and I probably didn't
pursue i t with enough active i n t e r e s t t o pull i t out of the
doldrums.
I think i t ' s probably just a s well I didn't because i t
would have been a highly technical challenge, and I don't know
i f it would have contributed a l l that much t o the overall
feeling of the project. I think C a l l i s t e r ' s fenestration,
actually, using things l i k e anodized aluminum, i s very good,
and cast concrete where the fenestration gets heavier. So,
a t any rate, t h a t ' s the closest I've ever come t o anything
with Warren Callister, although I've admired h i s work; I've
seen h i s church over i n Belvedere too. He's really one of
the great handlers of wood, much more refined than Maybeck.
B
y temperament I really l i k e Maybeck. I mean I l i k e h i s
straight-forwardness, although he can be extremely refined too.
You can see by looking a t the beams here i n the studio, I l i k e
kind of a crudeness. These joints a r e a very i n t r i c a t e ,
American barn type joinery with a dash of Japanese wood tech-
nology i n i t too. I j u s t love things l i k e that, j u s t very
honest, straightforward, simple technology, but i t ' s very
aesthetically pleasing.
A t any rate, getting back t o the Newman Center, I guess
t h a t ' s what we ought t o t a l k about because t h a t ' s what I have
the most experience with.
Riess: What do you think a r e the great churches around here?
Maybeck Christian Science Church?
The
DeStaebler: Y e s , j u s t down the s t r e e t from the Newman Center. And,
there's a church, or maybe i t was never a church--what is
that l i t t l e building on the campus r i g h t near the Student
Union?
Riess : Yes, by [A. C. 1 Schweinfurth.
DeStaebler: Great, big redwood logs and a great round window a t the end.
Riess : Y e s , a Unitarian Church.
b u i l t i n 18981
[located a t Dana and Bancroft and
DeStaebler: Very nice. And there's s t i l l 'a big redwood t r e e a t the
entrance of the church, i t ' s kind of a big sentinel and then
the building s e t next t o it. I really l i k e that.
Riess : And St.
t h a t ?
~ o h n ' s '
Presbyterian, the J u l i a Morgan, do you include
DeStaebler: Do you mean t h e one on College Avenue?
Riess : Yes.
DeStaebler: I don't know that well. I ' v e always loved it from the outside,
but, I guess t o be honest, I ' v e never been on the inside.
It's i n such s t a r k contrast t o the church t h a t t h a t same con-
gregation b u i l t diagonally across the s t r e e t . That one would
be an example of "wowser" church architecture.
Riess : I ' m g e t t i n g a f i x on you a s a romantic, a s f a r a s church
architecture is concerned, and y e t the Newman Center is f a r
from a romantic-looking space t o me.
Europe
DeStaebler: I don't know i f "romantic" is the r i g h t word. I ' v e never been
t o a Greek island, but I've studied l o t s of the photographs,
some of those very simple Greek Orthodox churches with a dome
which dominates the small nave and sanctuary, and t h a t
probably comes a s close t o what I f e e l is a t the center of
my own aesthetic. I love t h a t play of the l i g h t on the
whiteness. And again, although I ' v e never been i n the r e a l l y
High Greek Orthodox churches l i k e Daphne, you know, the
Byzantine period, those r e a l l y s a t i s f y something i n me.
I did get t o Ravenna when I was about nineteen, and I ' d
studied medieval a r t j u s t before going s o I was immersed i n
t h a t whole period of religious a r t . And when I got t o
Ravenna I was j u s t overwhelmed by the mausoleum of Galla
Placidia, t h e very small cruciform chapel. Do you know i t ,
by any chance? It's hard t o describe.
Riess : Well, there
remember.
a r e three o r four places i n Ravenna t h a t I
DeStaebler: It's the l e a s t imposing. It's the smallest of a l l the
remaining Byzantine churches. There a r e a couple of stunning
b a p t i s t r i e s , and then t h e r e ' s San Vitale, which i n one
bay is j u s t overwhelming. It's e s s e n t i a l l y an octagonal
church and one bay is complete with a U the mosaics. I dontt
think they ever completed the whole church, but t h i s bay
with the Empress Theodora and her entourage on one side, and
the king, Justinian, on t h e other. And i t j u s t goes on and
on, up and up and up.
DeStaebler: 	 Well, the mausoleum of Galla Placidia is very intimate, and
y e t i t is so overwhelming i n its intimations of space. It's
l i k e walking i n t o what you think i s going t o be a l i t t l e
closet and emerging i n t o the universe. It's j u s t an incred-
i b l e experience. The church is very humble on the outside,
i t ' s j u s t of Roman bricks and I think there's some crudely
shaped stone f o r the corners and a l l . It can't be over
twenty-five f e e t high. It's a cruciform with a dome s i t t i n g
on a squinch construction. And you go i n and here's t h i s
dim i n t e r i o r space, because the only l i g h t i n g once the door
i s closed comes from small alabaster windows up i n the dome.
The dome is t h i s deep, ultramarine blue mosaic with gold
tesserae s t a r s and t h i s . b e a u t i f u 1 cross r i g h t on the top. I
t e l l you, i t ' s j u s t l i k e seeing i n f i n i t y and e t e r n i t y a l l
j u s t bathing you. And because i t ' s s o small, you know, you
look up and i t ' s r i g h t there. It's j u s t incredible. I n the
b a r r e l vaults of the transepts, there a r e almost l i k e
s t y l i z e d Persian carpet designs, c i r c l e s and colors. And
then a t the ends a r e p i c t o r i a l scenes of the Good Shepherd
and whatnot. A s is t y p i c a l i n Byzantine architecture, the
walls up t o about I think i n t h a t church s i x or seven f e e t
high are j u s t simple marble, unadorned marble.
I had a Greek friend i n college who gave.me a r e a l
insight i n t o that device of having the space where the
worshiper is very neutral, very plain, and then above and
out of reach very voluptuous. H i s point was t h a t it sym-
bolically d e a l t with the realm of t h e world (the world we
l i v e i n ) and the realm of heaven and a f t e r l i f e , t h a t i t
gave t h i s duality very d i r e c t l y t o the worshiper. It's an
i n t e r e s t i n g thought. Rather than j u s t bombarding the
worshiper a t a l l l e v e l s with the promise of the future l i f e ,
t h i s clearly makes a l i n e of demarcation!
That would be, I think, an example of religious space
t h a t r e a l l y overwhelmed me. I f e l l i n love with Gothic too,
but I ' m not so sure I f e e l the same attachment t o Gothic
architecture t h a t I did e a r l i e r . I mean a t the time I ' d
f a l l e n i n love with stained glass and began making windows
myself. I went t o Chartres and had an incredible experience
there because it was everything I ' d hoped it would be.
You know, often what happens when you study a r t history,
you get inklings of what something is l i k e based on slides,
and then you go see the actual work and it's very disappoint-
ing because instead of transniitted l i g h t you're looking a t
some dim, usually very d i r t y opaque surface l i k e a painting
or a fresco, and it j u s t doesn't have the intensity. For-
tunately with. stained g l a s s i t ' s transmitted l i g h t also, so
the s l i d e s haven't l i e d so much!
DeStaebler: 	 But I had t h i s vision when I was t h a t age of somehow being
able t o unify the beauty of stained glass with the beauty
of mosaics a l l i n one environment, and I never carried it
anywhere, and I don't think i n retrospect I could have.
Because I think the very thing t h a t makes stained glass s o
powerful i n its Gothic use i s the play between t h e cool,
neutral stone and the windows. It's j u s t the right balance.
I n its way i t ' s l i k e t h a t balance between the marble l i n i n g
the nave and the mosaic above i n Byzantine architecture.
Another thing, too, i s a l l that l i g h t being transmitted
onto the neutral grey of the limestone i n a Gothic church
is completion of the window. I f i t were playing upon any-
thing colored l i k e mosaic or fresco it would j u s t be counter-
active. Likewise i f you t r i e d t o use stained glass i n a
Byzantine s i t u a t i o n with its t o t a l expanse of tesserae, it
would be a l l wrong. The alabaster is j u s t r i g h t , you know.
Riess: 	 Yes, t h a t was a revelation t o me, the s l i c e s of alabaster;
t h a t was a wonderful l i g h t .
DeStaebler: 	 Just an incredible mysterious l i g h t . J u s t warm enough.
What happens, I forgot t o say, i n the dome of Galla Placidia,
is t h e s t a r s l i t e r a l l y burn. There's j u s t enough redness
I suppose coming i n from the windows so t h a t i t picks up
the tesserae and j u s t makes them burn, and the cross j u s t
looms up over your head, j u s t on f i r e . Of course, they knew
what they were doing when they s e t those tesserae a t random
angles, because when you move then the r e f l e c t i o n s c i n t i l -
l a t e s j u s t l i k e l i g h t does off of water, you know, when you
get t h a t f l u t t e r i n g e f f e c t of water.
W
e b e t t e r get down t o business, I guess. The Bay Area.
But I j u s t wanted t o say t h a t because I didn't want you t o
get the feeling t h a t I was a romantic i n the Maybeck tradi-
tion. And I don't know i f Maybeck was a l l t h a t much of a
romantic. I don't know, I think he was j u s t an extremely
r i c h inventor of form, and it tends t o get a l i t t l e b i t
cloying i n c e r t a i n circumstances, and I don't know how I
would l i k e the Christian Science Church down t h e s t r e e t
there on Dwight Way i f I were a worshiper. I think I
might find it a l i t t l e heavy, day i n and day out.
There a r e two chapels there. The chapel t h a t intrigued
m
e was the secondary one, the one t h a t has a very long nave,
and i t ' s very d i f f e r e n t from t h e kind of dish-like main
church area. But I l i k e what Maybeck did on the painting
of that. He used very simple, almost l i k e watercolor on
the stone. And doesn't i t have a limestone a l t a r , a s I
r e c a l l ?
Riess : Yes, right.
DeStaebler: And then i t ' s kind of painted very delicately, almost l i k e
A r t Nouveau. And a l s o the walls and a l l a r e very kind of
delicately, joyfully dealt with. I l i k e t h a t very much.
Riess : Well, Christian S c i e n t i s t s , unlike the Catholicism
t h a t we're talking about, wouldn't be a t a l l interested i n
making t h a t d i s t i n c t i o n between the here and now and the
a f t e r l i f e .
DeStaebler: Well, t h a t ' s true. It's not necessarily popular i n the way
we look a t r e l i g i o n now.
The Newman Center Sanctuary
Meeting Father Ritzius
Riess : And t h a t ' s a kind of nice way t o lead i n t o what we should
be talking about. Changes had occurred i n the Catholic
liturgy.
DeStaebler: Well, t h a t ' s true. Okay, l e t me j u s t give you a running
narrative of how it came about. I was teaching a t the San
Francisco A r t I n s t i t u t e i n the e a r l y s i x t i e s , and I had a
student named Dick Jorasch, who was an a r c h i t e c t , i n the
class. This would have been about 1965. H e ' s an important
person f o r you, and when you t a l k with Mario Ciampi ask him
about Dick, because Dick was h i s chief designer, and i n
f a c t , although he doesn't get t h e c r e d i t f o r it, he was the
major designer of the University A r t Museum a t Berkeley.
He and another a r c h i t e c t t h a t worked with Ciampi i n t h e
s i x t i e s named Dick Wagner--I believe t h a t ' s h i s name--
entered t h e competition f o r the A r t Museum design, which
was an international competition; there were some r e a l l y
important a r c h i t e c t s competing. And Mario, I think, l e t
them spend t h e i r o f f i c e time t o f i n a l i z e t h e i r design, and
then when they won it became a project of Mario Ciampi and
Associates. So Dick Jorasch is, I think, an important
person. You might even want t o t a l k with him about the
conception of the Newman Center, because I think h i s hand
is very strongly i n the Newman Center design a s well.
DeStaebler:
A
A t any r a t e , Dick was i n m
y class, an a r c h i t e c t yearning t o
be an a r t i s t ! You know, we were talking e a r l i e r , i f you're
one o r the other you're never complete! And he said one
day, "How would you l i k e t o do a church sanctuary?" I must
have seemed rather unenthusiastic. I kind of muddled some
answer, and didn't certainly leap a t the idea. But t h a t
was the beginning of it. That would have been about i n
October, and then come December he t o l d m
e more about it
and said t h a t t h e a r c h i t e c t and t h e p r i e s t would be inter-
ested i n talking with me i f I ' d l i k e t o consider it.
That had given me time t o think some more about it, and
I was kind of intrigued by the idea. Come December, r i g h t
before Christmas, Mario Ciampi and Father Ritzius, t h e head
p r i e s t a t t h a t time a t the Newman Center, and ~ i c k
came down
t o my studio, my old studio, which I still have a s a matter
of f a c t but i t ' s kind of secondary t o t h i s one. It's down
i n Albany about a hundred yards from t h e Bay. It's about
four f e e t above sea l e v e l , and I believe i t ' s t h e coldest
place i n the world i n the wintertime.
They came t o see me--and I think t h i s was a c r i t i c a l
experience i n my getting the commission. I ' d become ac-
customed t o t h i s cold, and I j u s t keep adding sweatshirts
t o stave i t off. When they arrived l a t e one afternoon, I
was i n about f i v e sweatshirts, l i k e a teddy bear o r some-
thing. And they came i n and they had these heavy coats on,
l i k e c z a r i s t Russian coats. They stood inside my studio
freezing t o death, and I ' m sure they got t h e impression
t h a t t h i s guy is some kind of ascetic, t h a t he's our man
because he s u f f e r s intentionally ! [laughter]
But it was a nice meeting, and I r e a l l y h i t i t off with
Father Ritzius. John Ritzius is h i s name. I ' v e heard he's
no longer a p r i e s t . I think he dropped out of the priest-
hood not too many years a f t e r he l e f t Newman Hall i n probably
about 1969 o r so. I can't remember h i s term.
You have t o realize--and w e ' l l t a l k a l i t t l e b i t more
about this--that the p r i e s t s i n Newman Hall serve f o r only
about three years and then they're transferred t o some other
location. It sounded t o m e always l i k e the army, where they
kept t h e i r personnel r o t a t i n g a l l the t i m e , and I think
t h e r e ' r e probably some good reasons f o r t h a t , but it seemed
t o m
e t h e p r i c e was awfully high t o pay, because about the
time a person got h i s bearings and r e a l l y sank some roots,
they'd yank him out and a new crew would come in.
DeStaebler: I just happened t o be there--. O r , put i t t h i s way. Father
Ritzius was there a t the r i g h t time and I came i n t o a
relationship with him a t the r i g h t time f o r t h i s a l l t o
take place. I firmly believe t h a t had there been any of
the other p r i e s t s t h a t came a f t e r i n t o t h a t position at
the Newman Center t h a t I wouldn't have gotten the commission.
Riess : Would the building i n f a c t not have been b u i l t i n the
way?
same
DeStaebler: That's quite possible too,
knowledge i n t h a t regard.
that.
but I can't speak with any r e a l
You might ask Mario Ciampi about
A t any r a t e , Father Ritzius and I r e a l l y saw eye t o eye.
It was j u s t an incredibly satisfying experience, because
i t ' s a s i f we j u s t made the same.assumptions about things.
There was never any nit-picking about how something should
look. It was always kind of caught up within a greater
sense of how it works and kind of feeling r i g h t rather than
looking r i g h t .
So we got r o l l i n g , he and I, on how t h i s should work,
and I had him come back down t o the studio.
The Scheme
Riess : What was he a b l e t o see when he came t o see you t h a t f i r s t
time?
DeStaebler: I had nothing prepared. I j u s t was working on m
y clay
sculpture, and I ' m sure there was a l o t of i t around because
it i s n ' t a very b i g studio. It's about half as big a s here,
and very cluttered and cave-like almost. H e would have seen
probably j u s t works i n progress because there wasn't very
much space t o s t o r e finished work.
They had a c e r t a i n f a i t h i n me I think from works I had
done t o date. I n '66, I was j u s t f i v e years out of graduate
school, and I had done one public commission. It was i n
S a l t Lake City. I hadn't had a great deal of experience.
But Dick Jorasch, I know, r e a l l y responded t o m
y work, and
it turned out t h a t Father Ritzius did too i n h i s way.
~Staebler: When we got going on it, t r y i n g t o get a scheme, he came down
t o m
y studio a couple of t i m e s , and I cleaned out a s much of
the f l o o r area a s I could and we made a mockup of the sanctu-
ary space. It was way smaller than t h e actual Newman Center
dimensions, but we were able t o kind of make a mockup a l t a r
out of some boxes I had. (In f a c t I have some of t h e same
boxes around the corner here. I ' l l show you.)
M
y scheme from t h e very beginning was t o place t h e
sanctuary on a raised mound. And so I simulated t h a t with
some plywood ramps. Then when i t came t o f i g u r e out what
the c r u c i f i x might be, I climbed up on some shelving and
painted t h i s c r u c i f i x on t h e wall j u s t using some water
paints I had handy. It's s t i l l there a s a matter of f a c t ,
I wish you could see it.
It turns out t h a t the sketch off the top of my head was
amazingly close t o the f i n a l proportions and s i z e of t h e
crucifix t h a t I did make.
Well, j u s t t o t r y t o keep i t a l i t t l e b r i e f : What
Father Ritzius and I did was not t r y t o a r r i v e a t an appear-
ance of t h e sanctuary, but rather an organization of i t t h a t
would permit the mass t o take on a choreography. I ' m not
Roman Catholic, s o I didn't have t h a t t o f a l l back on, but
I had studied religion i n college and I was very interested
i n meanings, not j u s t the way something looked. I ' m finding
I ' m saying t h a t over and over again; I ' m not q u i t e sure why,
but i t ' s important I think t o distinguish between the
appearance of something and the essence. [tape interruption]
I was s t a r t i n g t o say, you can use the analogy of
people; a person is much more than what he o r she looks like.
The f i r s t impressions and a l l can often be the most erroneous.
Well, I f e l t t h a t Father Ritzius and I were getting a t some-
thing l i k e the core of t h e mass, and what he helped me see
was how i n the course of celebrating the mass the p r i e s t
would go from one position t o another. He might go from the
a l t a r t o the s e d i l i a , the chair, and sit down. And then he
might come back t o the a l t a r and then come t o t h e lectern,
pulpit. Then l a t e r a s the mass progressed he would go over
t o the tabernacle i n the a l t a r of repose and take t h e Host
out of the tabernacle and bring it back t o the a l t a r .
What was generated by a l l these l i t t l e motions was
something l i k e a cross-like configuration, and the position&
ing of t h e a l t a r , the lectern, the s e d i l i a , and the taber-
nacle a l l f e l l i n t o place t o enhance and formalize t h i s
movement.
DeStaebler: 	 The Vatican I1 conference had already gotten people thinking
about the t r a d i t i o n a l placement of the a l t a r against the
rear wall of the sanctuary. W
e didn't have t o f i g h t that
b a t t l e . Father Ritzius was very i n t e n t upon reversing t h a t
position, which forced the p r i e s t t o turn h i s back t o the
congregation when he was actually celebrating the mass
i t s e l f . So t h a t determined the positioning of the a l t a r
a good f i f t e e n f e e t forward from the rear wall, and it meant
t h a t a l l of t h i s choreography was with t h e p r i e s t facing the
congregation.
This is a r e a l big change f o r Catholics. They were so
accustomed t o t h i s high a l t a r notion, with the steps going
U
P and the p r i e s t on high l i k e someone unreachable, inacces-
s i b l e , with the incense kind of puffing up, and not seeing
h i s face. So t h i s positioning of the a l t a r forward was then
enhanced even more by bringing the lectern a good f i f t e e n or
twenty f e e t i n front of the a l t a r .
Now, the Newman Center nave i s l i k e a semicircle, and
the pews radiate around almost 180 degrees--not quite, because
they took some pews out a s a matter of f a c t , so i t ' s probably
more l i k e 120 degrees now. A t any r a t e , by bringing the
l e c t e r n way forward it meant t h a t instead of standing on high
and removed from the congregation, the p r i e s t was now r i g h t
i n t h e i r midst. I've heard l a t e r from subsequent p r i e s t s
they don't l i k e t h i s a t a l l , they're not accustomed t o talking
and rotating, because i f you don't r o t a t e and meet people eye
to eye, you stand up there l i k e a wooden effigy. So t h i s was
another one of the ideas Father Ritzius loved, but subsequent
p r i e s t s have disliked!
Riess: 	 Had he seen things t h a t had influenced him i n h i s thinking?
Did he t a l k about anything e l s e t h a t he had seen and liked
and wanted t o emulate?
DeStaebler: 	 I f he had I don't recall. It's a s i f we b u i l t our own common
denominator, i n almost kind of a nonverbal way. W
e j u s t
seemed to h i t i t off i n the realm of emotion. He had a great
sense of t r u s t . I know he trusted my i n s t i n c t , and i t was
not unguided i n s t i n c t because of t h i s careful work we did
together. W
e spent hours and hours and hours delving i n t o
how the mass unfolds.
Anyone listening t o t h i s tape without knowing the
sanctuary i t s e l f would probably have a hard time following
what I ' m saying. But the sanctuary is not separate from the
t o t a l chapel space, it's merely a great segment along the
r e a r wall. H
o
w would you describe i t ? It's not an elongated
chapel space--.
Riess : 	 Let's plan on having a floor plan. A s a matter of f a c t , you
must have sketches around.
DeStaebler: 	 Well, they used t o have a brochure, a wonderful brochure,
and they l e t it g e t out of p r i n t . Mario Ciampi f o r sure w i l l
have floor plans, and I'll go i n a f t e r we f i n i s h up here and
look i n my l i b r a r y and see i f I can't find the floor plan of
it.
A t any r a t e , what makes i t so d i f f e r e n t from a tradi-
t i o n a l church is t h a t t h e sanctuary is p r a c t i c a l l y l i k e a
theater-in-the-round. It's p r a c t i c a l l y l i k e a stage, not
placed i n the center of the congregation but i t moves i n t o
the congregation, while being very strongly wall-oriented
along t h i s long r e a r wall.
The scheme t h a t I gravitated t o almost immediately was
t h i s s o f t mounding, of r a i s i n g the sanctuary i t s e l f about a
foot and a half o r two above the nave l e v e l and having it
feather i n t o the lower f l o o r l e v e l with a very gradual mound,
so it's very s o f t , n o t a mountain idea but a plateau. The
reason I liked the s o f t , gradual ramp was t h a t I liked the
idea of the communicants, the worshipers walking up the
i n c l i n e t o the a l t a r t o receive communion.
The plan was t o have the congregation move i n two columns
up e i t h e r incline, which brought them up t o the a l t a r , receive
communion over the a l t a r , and then have them r e t u r n t o t h e i r
pews down t h e steps i n the middle of the mound. O r it could
be the other way around.
I n practice I saw a very s a t i s f y i n g communion taking
place where people--it was a small group--would j u s t kind of
meander p a r t way up the mound, some closer, some farther,
and the p r i e s t , instead of giving the wafer over the a l t a r
a s was planned, walked t o each person and j u s t kind of made
a l i t t l e meandering t r i p along t h e brow of the mound giving
the wafer t o each person, which i n a way I liked a s much o r
more than the formal approach t h a t we had arrived a t .
The Vatican I1 guideline, o r a t l e a s t s p i r i t , was t o
have the p r i e s t stand behind the a l t a r facing the congrega-
tion. The communicant would come up t o the a l t a r from the
other side, he would l i t e r a l l y be standing on the feathered
base of the a l t a r , and receive t h e communion across the
a l t a r . I n other words, he would be brought i n t o the realm
of the a l t a r , and then he would descend. Psychologically
I was thinking t h i s was the way i t was meant t o be; the
s l i g h t ascension, going up the mound, was kind of symbolic
DeStaebler: 	 of reaching a certain purification. It w a s very much l i k e
t h e idea of the inner sanctum, which i n older church design
was limited only t o the p r i e s t , only the p r i e s t went up t o
the a l t a r , but here the communicant could go up t o t h e a l t a r
and see t h e Host and then return.
I think it was a very satisfying merging of t h e exper-
ience of the communicant and the experience of the celebrant.
And Father Ritzius w a s really enthusiastic about it. The
r e a l problem we had early on was with Mario Ciampi.
The Approval
DeStaebler: 	 Now, I want t o preface t h i s by saying I had an incredibly
satisfying experience working with Mario and Dick. But i n
t h i s early confrontation I was wondering whether we were ever
going t o get together.
Riess : 	 Actually, I ' m surprised t h a t so much of the design w a s going
on between you and t h e p r i e s t .
DeStaebler: 	 The priests--there were a couple of other men there--were
the c l i e n t s , a t l e a s t the representatives of the c l i e n t s ,
-
the c l i e n t s being the Church. (And I'll tell you i n a minute
how I had t o go t o the diocese t o get my idea approved.)
A t any rate, there we got t h i s scheme worked out, I made
a quarter-inch-scale model, and we took it over t o Mario
Ciampi's o f f i c e and there was an immediate problem because
Mario's original design f o r the sanctuary called f o r an
elevated platform, one which had a number of very compli-
cated step approaches t o it. It was i n s p i r i t very much
l i k e the architecture of the sanctuary i t s e l f , which is
made up of a number of very sharp-angled walls t h a t kind of
s l i c e l i k e planes i n t o the t o t a l chapel space. It was almost
the a n t i t h e s i s of t h i s s o f t mounding scheme which I was pro-
posing.
So it was j u s t looking very hopeless there. Mario
wanted h i s scheme, but Father Ritzius was supporting my
scheme. It seemed t o sit i n limbo f o r a t least a month.
This would have been l i k e March of '66.
Riess : 	 There were no problems about t h e weight of the materials?
There were no s t r u c t u r a l problems?
DeStaebler: 	 No. The church you should r e a l i z e was under construction a t
the t i m e . The walls w e r e a l l up, but t h e floor, which was
p r a c t i c a l l y t h e l a s t thing t o be done, was r e a l l y untouched,
it was j u s t a gravel base. It was advantageous t o have t h e
project t h a t f a r along f o r me, because I was a b l e t o go over
t o the project and get a r e a l feeling f o r the space, which
i s r e a l l y essential.
I f you're going t o collaborate a s an a r t i s t with an
a r c h i t e c t u r a l project, knowing the space f o r what it r e a l l y
is i s everything. I f you depend upon drawings, plans, and
whatnot, and don't comprehend the t r u e nature of the space,
you can make some t e r r i b l e decisions. You can think you're
working within the s p i r i t of the space and be way off. I n
t h i s case there was very l i t t l e room f o r e r r o r because the
space was already defined. The roof wasn't up yet, but t h a t
wasn't s o important, it was high up and you could imagine
t h e e f f e c t of the roof. And it allowed me t o r e a l l y sense
what t h i s mound was going t o do, and I was convinced i t was
the r i g h t solution, so I wasn't about t o compromise.
Well, about a month a f t e r t h a t impasse I got a c a l l and
went back over t o Mario's o f f i c e and Mario had had time t o
r e a l l y consider the merits of the proposal. He kind of
handed it over t o Dick, and Dick and I worked out some modi-
f i c a t i o n s of it, which Dick had, I imagine through a l o t of
study, f e l t would be superior. I was open, and there were
several changes t h a t came about which were very good.
One of them being, instead of the steps being niched
i n t o the mound, they emerged out, so it was kind of a more
a s s e r t i v e form. And we arrived a t c e r t a i n bevels: where
the mound comes around.and approaches the back wall, it gets
steeper, and there're very sharp bevels, which I thought
were good d e t a i l s . Also t h e l i t t l e s e a t f o r t h e acolytes t o
sit on got refined from t h i s revision. They have a concrete
bench that kind of r i s e s up out of the concrete f l o o r near
the presider's chair and it's very simple, it doesn't intrude
on the f i r e c l a y objects, l i k e the chair and the a l t a r and
so forth. So I f e e l very good about that.
After working out the design further and involving Dick
and Mario i n its f i n a l appearance, we ended up with something
t h a t we a l l f e l t very good about. Then it died again. I
can't t e l l you exactly how i t went, but I went t o see t h i s
fellow named Clem Finney who was a t the diocese o f f i c e i n
Oakland. He lined up a meeting between me and a p r i e s t some-
where down i n San Leandro who was considered something of an
DeStaebler: 	 expert i n l i t u r g i c a l objects. I went down there with t h i s
schematic drawing, showing him how i t looked. And it was
a l l r i g h t , he j u s t made a few suggestions on how t o handle
the tabernacle and so forth.
Then a s f a r a s I r e c a l l , nothing happened. That would
have been l i k e e a r l y summer of '66, and I don't think I
heard anything about it being approved u n t i l l i k e March of
'67. P r a c t i c a l l y a year elapsed, during which time I got
very discouraged. I fortunately wasn't s e t on j u s t moving
i n t o do t h a t work. I kept doing m
y own sculpture, and it
was an important lesson f o r m
e t o l e a r n f o r a l l time not t o
base m
y own expectations on other people, because decisions
a r e . o f t e n very slow i n coming about, especially i n a bigger
organization l i k e a church.
Riess: 	 The c l i e n t , you said, was the diocese?
DeStaebler: 	 Well, the diocese was the r e a l c l i e n t , yes. And I have no
idea what might have gone on a t t h a t level. I don't know
whether there was a c o n f l i c t o r what accounted f o r the delay,
because the church construction was moving r i g h t along a l l
during t h i s time, and i t was e s s e n t i a l t o get the plan i n
place i n time t o have t h e floor shaped t o receive my work.
Riess: 	 Your offering! [laughter]
DeStaebler: 	 Right! I mean, i f the floor got poured before w e had the
scheme firmly i n place, it would have been disastrous, because
there would have been no way t o r e a l l y modify j u s t a gener-
alized f l a t floor.
But j u s t t o make a long, drawn-out, agonizing period
short, t h e approval came through. The working drawings f o r
t h e floor got drawn up i n Mario's o f f i c e and t o the contractor
i n time and i t got poured, and very nicely done.
It's i n t e g r a l black concrete, as you might have noticed,
which is q u i t e d i f f e r e n t from what is called a dust-on surface,
where the color is j u s t a kind of veneer on top of regular
grey concrete. You r e a l l y sense the depth of color i n the
concrete because of its being mixed integrally i n t o the batch.
It has a c e r t a i n disadvantage i n t h a t it has tended t o leach
kind of a whiteish, blotchy powder i n certain areas, but t h a t
doesn't bother me. It's bothered other people more. Also
they've tended t o wax it r a t h e r excessively, and gets too
thick a coat of wax. It should be cleaned down periodically,
and I think wax used more sparingly.
DeStaebler:
The Firing
Getting back t o the schedule, I think t h e contract was f i n a l l y
firmed up i n March of '67, and I got t o work rather quickly
a f t e r t h a t , I meant I f e l t kind of pent up, I knew j u s t how
I was going t o go about it. I guess t h e f i r s t object I made
was the c h a i r , then the l e c t e r n and then I think I made the
tabernacle and then the a l t a r . A t any r a t e , by the f a l l of
'67 I had the major work done i n the wet clay on the f l o o r
'
objects. I wasn't t o g e t t o the c r u c i f i x till much l a t e r ; 

I finished t h a t i n '68. 

I j u s t worked l i k e a demon, i f t h a t ' s the r i g h t word!
[laughing] f o r months, getting those works done. I must say,
f o r large-scale, ceramic sculpture, they were r e a l tours de
force. They taxed m
y enormous k i l n , which I'd b u i l t several
years before, t o the l i m i t . To give you an example, when I
loaded the tabernacle i n t o t h e kiln-, You have t o r e a l i z e
t h i s is a walk-in k i l n ; I b u i l t it myself and I made it high
enough s o when I walked i n t o it I wouldn't knock myself out
on t h e arch bricks. It's about f i v e f e e t , nine.inches high
and i t ' s a s wide a s m
y stretched arms, f i v e and a half f e e t
wide or so, and it's about four and a half f e e t deep; i t ' s
over a hundred cubic f e e t .
I knew I wanted the tabernacle t o be j u s t a s t a l l as I
possibly could make it. So I calculated the shrinkage. As I
was t e l l i n g you e a r l i e r , clay shrinks about 12 percent from
wet t o f i r e d . Well, about 6 percent of t h a t is i n the time
between drying out before i t ' s f i r e d . So I calculated another
6 percent onto the t o t a l height of t h e tabernacle, and when i t
shrank down, dried out, and I pushed it with the hydraulic
jack i n t o t h e k i l n , it j u s t scraped the arch! I mean it j u s t
l e f t a l i t t l e t r a i l of clay dust up i n there, it didn't h u r t
the piece a t a l l . That's how close it was.
Then, when I f i r e d t h e altar--which was i n three sections--
I had t o modify m
y k i l n r a t h e r basically i n order t o make it
f i t . I mentioned e a r l i e r how it f l a r e s out a t the base so
t h a t the communicant would actually stand physically on the
a l t a r instead of the concrete floor. That made the t o t a l
width o r depth of the a l t a r about four and a half o r f i v e
f e e t wide, and my k i l n door is only four f e e t wide, s o I had
t o knock out the bricks down a t the base of the door so t h a t
these flanges, these flared-out forms, could s l i d e i n t o the
k i l n without h i t t i n g the bricks. And it worked fine. I got
them in.
ITIS EASY to distinguish Stephen DeStaebler's house from
others on his block in the hills of Berkeley, California.
Long, flat slabs of fired clay edge the front and side yards,
holding the hillside in place. The juxtaposition of earth
and fired-earth landscape sculpture is appropriate since it
is one of the dominant themes in his clay work. These
slabs also reflect the impact Western scenery made on him
in 1957 during a first trip to California from his Missouri
home. In contrast to the worn-down and softened topog-
raphy of the Midwest, the jagged, stratified Sierra Nevada
Mountains so impressed him that distillations of their
'
forms beean to surface in his work.
"
Since moving to California more than twenty years ago,
Stephen has created sculpture tenuously balanced between
exploration of landscape and figurative images. Horizon-
tal forms suggest the earth moved by cataclysmic forces-
earthquake, geolpgical drift, lava flow. Wall sculptures.
some as tall as 37 feet, dwarf the human figure, yet create
an exalting environment. Stoneware vessels and seating
arrangements of throne-like forms seem to be prepared
for use by the nobility of a primeval age. Larger-than-life
fragments of figures, embedded in columnar forms, con-
front the viewer with a sense of man's relationship to the
earth-his birthplace and his ultimate destination.
Landscape and figure images appeared simultaneously
in Stephen's earliest sculptures. As he explains, "I realize?
that in everything I did, whether a landscape or a stele.
there was always a figure underneath." The "X" form ir.
many of his walls is a sort of shorthand for the body
flexed out. For many years a more clearly defined figura-
Ceramics Monthly April 1981 55
Fired slabs support the slope in front A handbuilt vessel by the artist rests View of the loft area in Stephen's
of Stephen DeStaebler's home. on the residence patio. self-designed studio/home.
The base of a sculpture reveals The monumental works are formed A pulley-mounted hoist system aids in
its hollowed construction. on pallets, moved by pushcart. loading the 100-cubic-foot kiln.
ti\-eform eluded him; none of the images he tried seemed
to work. His first success, a horizontal sculpture of a
female form, lies on the patio of his home to remind him
of his struggle with that problem.
Although that sculpture was satisfying then, Stephen's
\ision of the figure \\-astied to a vertical axis. He thought
he had found the answer to sustaining a column of day
when, during a visit to John Mason's studio in Los
-4ngeles in the early 1960s, he saw many vertical sculp-
tures built around an armature of two-by-fours. "I had a
strong mental picture of what I wanted and spent quite a
while making several slabs. I got one of those up and
slapped it on the annature but it didn't do what I wanted.
hly first reaction was strong disappointment. Then I
looked at it again. It was as if my eyes had been peeled
and I could really see what was there. My preconception
\\-astawdry by comparison. What was there was infinitely
better than what I had anticipated. I realized that clay
had an inner instinct for form. Much of what I've learned
in the years that followed has been a growing awareness
of what clay itself wants to do."
Not long afterward, Stephen found a different success-
ful method for structuring a vertical form. He shifted his
attitude toward clay and began to incorporate the facts of
its natu-cking, shrinkage, warping-into his ideas.
Because he is not dealing with containers, he can utilize
many of the "taboos" of clay technology. But negative
attitudes about some of clay's characteristics, such as
cracks, he feels, are deeply ingrained in the human psyche.
Cracks in an art form give us a sense of wholeness broken,
yet according to Stephen, "If you let the clay do what it
\\-ants to do, it will do incredible things. But it takes a
spirit of risk because it may fall flat." Often Stephen
intentionally breaks the clay forms to create crack lines
in floor landscapes, architectural walls and figurative
columns. This procedure enables him to liberate fonn by
recombining different sections, producing "an energy the
original monolith often didn't have." For vertical struc-
tures he builds from the base up, a section at a time as the
day becomes leatherhard.
Once a large sculpture, made in five days with drying
forced by fans, was on the verge of collapse as the last
piece was added. When the sculpture sagged after com-
pletion, he cut the clay from the bigger mass and reassern-
bled it differently. "It's like making a three-dimensional
collage where you take fragments that speak to one
another and bring them into some kind of field that is
more than the sum of the parts." The procedure can be
compared to film editing where segments are rearranged
for a more logical or rhythmic progression. Moreover,
"the beauty of clay, when you start to segment and recom-
bine it while it is wet, is that the fragmentscan be modu-
lated intrinsically, not just superficially. It gives a feeling
of basically reforming an idea as you go along."
One clay with which Stephen constructs sculpture is:
DeStaeblcr Stoneware Body (Cone 9)
Ball Clay ................................. 2 P
-
Fireclay .................................. 4 

Sandorgrog .............................. 1

-
7 parts
He also works with several porcelain clays, with short or
plastic bodies and a low-fire day fired to Cone 9:
Talc Body (Cone 9)
Ball Clay .................................Q parts
Talc ..................................... 2
Sand ..................................... 1
-
6 parts
L
Working on a monumental scale necessitates firing his
work in sections-some as large as the kiln. By constantly
shifting and changing the relationship between these
handbuilt parts, Stephen keeps the clay from becoming a
passive medium completely under his control. I t is an
increasingly difficult concern, disproving the adage that
art becomes easier as you progress. In Stephen's experi-
ence, just the opposite occurs. "I've never really sub-
scribed to the idea that art is a skill. Skill can become
camouflage for an artist." A concentration on technical
aspects of clay is part of Western rational thought in
which a problem is defined and the artist proceeds to
seek a solution. Stephen's attitude is more closely allied
to Zen philosophy in which the artist becomes one with
the event and is "not separated out by the calculati~lg
mind, manipulating the event. This is the distinction I try
to make between the approach to clay I've attempted over
the years and the approach I see around me s
o often."
This attitude is responsible for what Stephen speaks of
as a "reverence for clay," a principle advocated in some
of the classes he attended at the University of California
at Berkeley. Although he had flirted with art classes and
clay during his previous educational experiences, he had
not considered art as a career until he came West. After
graduation from Princeton University with a degree in
religion, he had entered the army for a tour of duty in
Germany. Thereafter he spent a year as a group leader
in a Harlem settlefient house, then was hired to teach
history and art at a private high school in southern Cali-
-
fornia. At the end of that year, in order to continue
teaching, he went to Berkeley, in 1958, to earn a secon-
dary teaching credential, and enrolled in a sculpture class
to fulfill a requirement. Halfway through the semester, he
realized that most of his time had been spent in the lab,
'and decided sculpture was what he really wanted to do.
When his work for the credential was completed, he
enrolled in the master's program in sculpture, and ulti-
mately joined a class taught by Peter Voulkos. Pete and
John Mason (who taught a summer sessions class in
1960) were part of the excitement and ferment that
created an unusual working environment for Berkeley art
students in the sixties. Stephen recalls that Pete didn't
talk much in class, but the atmosphere was electric. There
was a drive to push clay to its limits. "Just making some-
thing in a large size was like taunting fate because the
structural dilemma escalates."
Working alongside Pete, as students did in his classes.
gave Stephen a sense of identity with clay and an under-
standing of how to be guided by instincts in making
creative decisions. Stephen decided against using glazer.
seeking instead, a way of forming shape and color simul-
taneously. At,the beginning, he sprinkled and rubbed dry
oxides onto the wet clay, later mixing oxides into the
body. Color as an interior rather than exterior element
(as a glaze would be) is important because: "If you want
the color to be in the core of a cut plane and you have to
paint it artificially, you can tell it's a contrivance and nor
the immediate 'thereness' of color. There aren't too man!.
approaches to art which have both color and form welded
together as clay does." Experimenting with combinations
of oxides, he has developed a spectrum that include:
delicate pinks, pale yellows, pastel greens and blues as
well as earth tones. Their hue and density are affected by
variations in firing temperatures.
Along with making color an integral part of his sculp-
tures, Stephen doesn't use tools in the common under-
standine of the term. He doesn't use a slab roller because
the timi required to make a slab has become a mental and
physical "warm-up" period. His own body pushes and
pounds the clay, shaping his images much like the forces
at work in nature. Stephen's physical appearance belies
the strength required to build his monumental sculptures.
He faces such demanding physical exertions like an ath-
lete. After exhaustion comes a second wind that dr-es the
strength to continue and often to do his best wGk.
Although the idea of going beyond exhaustion is not
unusual in sports, Stephen finds this a difficult concept
to convey to students where he teaches at San Francisco
State University. He feels an artist needs to make that
kind of commitment in today's world where so much an
work is being produced and the artist is constantly bom-
barded and bludgeoned with images. The endless smor-
gasbord can induce artistic indigestion. Stephen's advice
is what he himself practices, to "try to get away from ir
all, be by yourself, and just work."
The author A frequent contributor to CM, ceramic art;
writer Elaine Leuin resides in Northridge, California.
DeStaebler: Where i t was especially a tour de force is t h i s a l t a r f i r e d
i n t h r e e sections shrank t o within an eighth o r a quarter of
an inch of one piece t o t h e other. I n other words, when you
have a l l t h i s weight i n clay, especially t h e force of gravity
pushing down on the clay, i n the f i r i n g of such a work you
know the clay is gerting molten practically, and i f i t i s n ' t
designed r i g h t it w i l l slump. W e l l , I did i t r i g h t because
these three sections shrank exactly.
Riess: Did you have t o do l i t t l e models and f i r e them f i r s t ? Do you
do that kind of thing t o see whether i t ' s going t o work?
DeStaebler: I did small clay studies. I did about a one-inch-to-the-foot
clay model, which generated a big clay s l a b and made the
a l t a r about six o r seven inches long, but i t was very informal;
i t was a working model. The f i n a l model was quarter-inch
scale. I made the a l t a r about so b i g [gesturing], and I did
t h i s i n p l a s t e r .
But a model is not necessary. I n f a c t , I don't even
l i k e t o depend on larger-scale models. Once I know the image
and once I ' v e figured out the s t r u c t u r a l system, then I r e a l l y
don't want t o look a t a model.
Riess : You didn't have any question but what t h i s would work?
DeStaebler:
*
Right. I ' d had enough experience working with clay t o know
what t h e limits were, but what was extremely aniiety-provoking
was whether I could d e a l accurately enough .with c e r t a i n speci-
fications, l i k e the shrinking specification.
What was r e a l l y nerve-wracking was whether m
y work would
shrink l a t e r a l l y on t h e f l o o r dimensions a t t h e r a t e t h a t I
calculated the niches i n the concrete for. I n other words,
a l l these pieces--the chair, the a l t a r , the tabernacle, and
the lectern--nest i n t o niches i n the floor, which is a very
important a e s t h e t i c concern. It means t h a t the forms emerge
up out of the floor, they're not j u s t pieces of f u r n i t u r e
s i t t i n g on t h e floor. So t h a t the niches were about two,
three i n x e s deep i n some cases. Others a r e kind of exposed
on one s i d e o r two; t h a t ' s t r u e of the chair and t h e taber-
nacle. And it meant t h a t a f t e r the pieces were f i r e d they had
t o sit down i n t o these niches with t h e r i g h t amount of leeway.
Riess : And the timing was such t h a t t h e niches were already there?
DeStaebler: Right. The floor was poured i n the f a l l of '67, I suppose.
Riess : You couldn 't have said t o them, "Wait"?
DeStaebler: 	 Not r e a l l y , because they had t o have t h a t floor i n i n order 

t o continue with the r e s t of the church. 

It turned out that my calculations were very accurate.
I didn't have t o touch the concrete a t a l l , which means m
y
pieces were within the l i m i t . I did have t o shape the pieces
a l i t t l e b i t ; t h ~
three sections of the altar needed trimming,
which is possible with a Carborundum saw. In other words, I
solved these problems, although I ' d never had an opportunity
t o do it before.
There're a l o t of r i s k s involved. Firing big pieces of
sculpture create r e a l problems of--. Well, f o r instance, the
greatest problem of a l l i s blowing the pieces up, which I ' v e
done on other occasions. I ' v e had enormous pieces of sculpture
i n my k i l n and advanced the temperature a l i t t l e too f a s t and
reached 212 degrees before t h e moisture w a s a l l out. Fortun-
a t e l y , God was with me i n t h i s process! [laughing]
Riess : 	 I was going t o ask you whether i n f a c t you thought about
blessing i t before you put i t i n there?
DeStaebler: 	 W e l l , I don't know. I have never been an overtly religious
person, i n the sense of r i t u a l o r prayer, but you sense doing
your work with purity i n hopes t h a t it w i l l progress safely.
Riess : 	 The Japanese potters, the f i n e old masters, there w a s so much
of t h a t Zen kind of thinking about what they were doing. It
should carry over i n t o t h e kiln.
DeStaebler: 	 A l o t of it is j u s t pure technical a t t e n t i o n t h a t you have t o
take i n o r d e r t o avoid the explosions, but a l o t of it is so
i n t u i t i v e . I mean theke's no manual t h a t says, "Let them
pre-dry f o r one week." I n f a c t , t h a t ' s j u s t about what I
ended up doing. I'd load the work i n t o the k i l n and l e t i t
pre-dry with j u s t the s l i g h t e s t amount of warm air blowing
i n t o it f o r about a week, and then 1'd brick up the door and
s t a r t the f i r i n g process, which would take about another week,
and then it would take a few days t o cool down, so it 's a
long, drawn-out process.
With my homemade k i l n , what I ' m looking at when I ' m
advancing pressure is a u-tube--a.monometer, i t ' s called--
with f l u i d i n it, and when you advance the pressure one
column l i f t s up and the other pushes down and you measure
the space between t h e high and the low i n the water columns
and t h a t t e l l s you your inches of pressure, so you go by
l i k e eighth-inch increases, j u s t ease i t along. Once you
get up t o red heat, you can then go rather swiftly up t o
~ e k t a e b l e r : 	
peak temperature, which i n t h i s case was about 2300 degrees
Fahrenheit; i n ceramic terms i t ' s about a cone eight-to-
nine f i r i n g . A t any r a t e , they f i r e d r e a l l y very well.
The I n s t a l l a t i o n
DeStaebler: .Then l e t me t e l l you about t h e i n s t a l l a t i o n . This came about
i n the summer of '68. The church was already i n operation,
and they were using t h e i r old funny Victorian f u r n i t u r e from
the old Newman Center from the northside of campus. W
e
brought a l l the work i n a t one time. Mayflower Movers, and
a wonderful f o r k l i f t operator named John T o s s e l l i (?) I got
t o know on t h i s project, did t h e job. He brought the work i n
ever so carefully and positioned the pieces i n t h e i r niches.
Riess: 	 They had t o bring t h e f o r k l i f t i n t o t h e church?
DeStaebler: 	 Right. W
e l a i d down plywood so it wouldn't leave any marks
on the f l o o r and made a road of plywood r i g h t up t o the
sanctuary. It was very strenuous work and extremely anxiety-
provoking f o r me because any misstep on the p a r t of the
f o r k l i f t operator could have resulted i n some damage.
Riess : 	 But the pieces weren't f r a g i l e , were they?
DeStaebler: Well, f i r e d clay is extremely tough, but i t ' s not something
you can drop around, j u s t l i k e a marble sculpture o r something,
.you don't go bouncing i t around, so it has t o be handled with
great care. But we lowered t h e pieces a l l i n one day a s I
recall. I made special neoprene rubber pads t o shim the
sections on so t h a t it was absolutely dead-solid. So the
pieces sit j u s t by gravity i n t h e i r niches, and they're so
heavy t h a t they can't r e a l l y be moved around. They aren't
cemented i n , but held j u s t by gravity.
Then t h e placement of the c r u c i f i x was the most excru-
c i a t i n g experience of a l l ! I look a l o t of care i n t h e
positioning of the c r u c i f i x i n the f i r s t place. I made a
great, full-size template of the c r u c i f i x out of paper and
put it on a long bamboo pole. It looked l i k e a great
Japanese k i t e . And m
y friend Me1 Henderson, a teaching
colleague of mine, would hold the bamboo pole and I ' d be way
i n t h e back of the church, then up i n the balcony, saying,
"A l i t t l e t o t h e right. U
p one inch, two inches.'' Boy, it
j u s t homed r i g h t i n t o where i t f e l t r i g h t , where it should
be, and-- [tape interruption]
DeStaebler: 	 As I was s t a r t i n g t o say, the position of the crucifix,
which f e l t j u s t right, turned out t o be the point t h a t would
be generated i f you extended the l i n e s of the diagonal walls
that a r e on e i t h e r s i d e of the sanctuary down t o the point
where they intersected, somewhere deep i n the ground, and
then constructed a v e r t i c a l from t h a t point upward, t h a t ' s
j u s t about the axis.
Riess: 	 Good geometry.
DeStaebler: 	 It helps explain how your eye often seeks some kind of
geometrical resolution t o a complex situation. There're
a l l kinds of things where angles and l i n e s want a resolution--
and t h i s church by the way is an extremely complex design.
There's hardly a p a r a l l e l p a i r of w a l l s . You know, every
wall is askew and only a few r i g h t angles. And the walls
a r e r e a l l y dominant, you know, they come zipping down, these
truncated diagonal concrete edges, and they vanish i n t o t h e
floor.
Well, t h i s places the c r u c i f i x way off-center; it i s n ' t
centered on the a l t a r a t all. And t h i s bothered many tradi-
t i o n a l people. They f e l t t h a t , you know, crucifixes a r e
always lined up d i r e c t l y behind the a l t a r . Well, i f we'd
done t h a t it would have been way out of whack, it wouldn't
have participated i n the energy of t h e space a t a l l .
A t any r a t e , we got the position located j u s t r i g h t , and
with the assistance of Me1 I developed a very elaborate mount
system made out of s t e e l angles which were bolted onto the
concrete wall with expansion bolts. This I did a l l myself--
I want you t o r e a l i z e t h a t on a l l m
y commissions, t h i s one
being the second b i g one t h a t I had t o do, I tend t o a l l
d e t a i l s myself and do a l l the work myself.
W
e got the mount on the wall--this is up about ten,
twelve f e e t i n the air--and we rented a scaffold which was
about t h e same height, and we brought a l l the ceramic sections
of t h e c r u c i f i x up on top of t h e a l t a r , and then we positioned
them. W
e made a dry run. W
e mounted them on t h e i r brackets,
some of the smaller pieces required new.anchor b o l t s , and
we got those a l l d r i l l e d and saw t h a t everything f i t t e d j u s t
right. Then we l i f t e d a l l the sections back off and we had
'
them s i t t i n g on top of the scaffold.
Well, I wasn't paying much attention. You know, when
you're i n the middle of doing something you don't notice what's
going on often. And I got off the scaffold and stepped back
DeStaebler: 	 and here was t h i s scaffold platform bowed l i k e that. [gestur-
ing] I swear, I thought, "
M
y God, we're going t o l o s e the
whole work!" It looked l i k e the whole thing was going t o
collapse, a l l thirteen sections or whatever lying on top of
t h a t scaffold. That's when I prayed! [laughing]
Riess : 	 Oh good, I ' d hoped you were going t o say that!
DeStaebler: 	 Because it looked t o me a s though i t was imminent disaster.
The reason we had t o do it a l l a t once l i k e this--put i t a l l
on, take it a l l o f f , and put it a l l on again--is there hadn't
been developed y e t a one-part adhesive. N
o
w there're s i l i c o n e
sealants, which a r e wonderful materials where you j u s t apply
them out of a cartridge and they set up, but back i n the
s i x t i e s t h e best t h a t I could come up with was a two-part
adhesive, which meant we had t o add a c a t a l y s t t o the base
material.
W e quickly mixed up our adhesive material, which was
necessary t o keep t h e pieces from moving on t h e i r s t e e l
mounting pins. W
e would place the adhesive around the pin
and then s e t the piece on t h e pin. W
e did i t a l l . This w a s
with my graduate student a t the time, Mike McMillan. He w a s
a rock climber, a good qualification f o r t h e job! [laughing]
W e got it a l l up t h a t same night, and i t j u s t f i t t e d beauti-
fully. I mean, again, everything couldn't have gone b e t t e r .
But there was t h a t moment I described where I f e l t t h a t i t
could have been an absolute disaster.
I f e e l very good about how everything worked. I mean
I r e a l l y f e e l as though i t was one of those r a r e experiences
where a very complex project integrated i t s e l f , where the work
l i n k s t o the architecture, enhances it. It doesn't j u s t mimic
it, i t ' s a dialogue, it r e a l l y seemed t o provide what the
church i t s e l f didn't provide, kind of a warmth and softness,
because t h e clay forms a r e q u i t e s o f t i n contrast t o the hard-
edge concrete.
The Congregation's Reception, and Some Hindsights
DeStaebler: 	 Mario Ciampi brought Isamu Noguchi by f a i r l y soon a f t e r it
was finished, i n f a c t j u s t weeks a f t e r it was finished I
think, and I had t h e opportunity t o go t o t h e church wit% them.
I ' d never met Noguchi before, and he's a very solemn man.
He stood with h i s arms folded and he looked a t it a very long
time, and he said, "This i s very good work." And i t was l i k e
DeStaebler: getting a kind of a blessing from the Pope himself! Then he
said, "You know, it might have been i n t e r e s t i n g i f you'd
placed the c r u c i f i x i n a niche also." Well, the f a c t of t h e
matter is I couldn't have because t h e wall had already been
poured by the time I was even brought i n seriously t o the
project.
Then he made one other observation about a c e r t a i n
t o n a l i t y of clay. I never r e a l l y looked a t it t h a t c r i t i c a l l y ,
and I got it through h i s eyes and he was r i g h t . I toned the
clay a l i t t l e b i t a f t e r he had l e f t .
R i e s s : That's r e a l l y interesting.
course? H i s mounds?
You'd been aware of h i s work, of
DeStaebler: Yes, I ' v e r e a l l y been anadmirer of Noguchi, not influenced
by him s o much I f e l t , because I have my own feelings, which
a r e q u i t e d i f f e r e n t from his. But t h a t was a real boost t o
get t h a t approval from him.
But the approval from the congregation wasn't
coming. It was interesting.
so forth-
Riess : Yes, I ' d l i k e t o have a sequence of the dedication of
and the kind of reviews i t received.
t h a t
DeStaebler: I don't r e c a l l any formal dedication, i t j u s t kind of then
was i n use. I f there was, I ' v e blanked it out. Funny how
things l i k e t h a t do tend t o get buried i n my memory, but I
don't r e c a l l any kind of formal dedication.
Riess : What is the congregation there? Is it mostly students?
DeStaebler: That's what makes it a very i n t e r e s t i n g situation. It's a
mixture of a student center, Newman Center, and a parish
church. A s a parish church it a t t r a c t s people of a l l ages.
And the d i f f i c u l t y I think they have i s finding some common
ground between two r a t h e r d i f f e r e n t contingents. The parish
congregation i s apt t o be much more conservative than the
university congregation o r the younger members. But t h a t
doesn't r e a l l y bear out. Some of the people who liked the
work most were older people, so I don't think you can make
any d i s t i n c t i o n by age.
What did happen though i s t h a t there were strong sup-
porters and strong detractors. I mean the controversy i s
never s e t t l e d . It's s t i l l going on. ( I ' l l t a l k about t h a t
i n a moment .)
DeStaebler: I was r e a l l y interested i n how some people approached the
work very warmly and poetically. The one person t h a t comes
t o mind is almost t h e archetypal l i t t l e old lady i n tennis
shoes, and she was from the parish, but she certainly was
no reactionary. I was there a t t h e time she was i n private
prayer, and she came up when she learned t h a t I ' d done it, and
she said, "Oh, I think t h a t a l t a r is j u s t wonderful."
[whispering] She said, "I think of it a s the anvil of God. "
You have t o know the design t o see what she's talking about.
The middle section of t h e three sections of the a l t a r is
shaped very much l i k e an anvil, because there a r e two holes
which penetrate the a l t a r , and so the holes cut i n t o the
c e n t r a l section, kind of scalloping i t i n l i k e an anvil.
And she said, "I can j u s t imagine the hammer of God s t r i k i n g
the a l t a r ! " [laughing]
R i e s s : 	 It is a kind of masculine space.
DeStaebler: 	 Actually, I think t h e architecture tends t o be severe, and my
work I think tends t o modulate t h a t and brings i n a softness.
I mentioned how the forms tend t o be soft. But i t ' s a l s o
played against a very planar, s t r i c t kind of counterpart t o
that softness.
The bases, f o r instance, a r e f o r the most p a r t t r i m .
The l e c t e r n has a very trimmed base, which makes it very
r e c t i l i n e a r . Then it softens i n t o l i k e a leaning, inclined
pyramid and opens out i n t o a very precise rectangular plat-
form f o r the Bible. So i n a way I think t h e r e ' s male and
female woven i n t o t h e forms of my work. I n fact, I think
t h a t ' s one of the problems t h a t people who found themselves
d i s l i k i n g it had; they thought m
y work is too sensuous. In
f a c t there is--how t o put it?--a kind of voluptuousness about
some of the forms. The l e c t e r n i t s e l f is, i n its secondary
form within the pyramid, q u i t e voluptuous. The presider's
chair is a very s o f t s e a t form.
I was very conscious of t h i s d e s i r e t o again somehow
mediate between the severity of the space, and r e l i g i o u s
feelings, which I think a r e much more sensate than the
architecture was dealing with. The architecture tended t o
be more cerebral, and m
y work hopefully was finding some
commonality between mind and emotion.
The color of the work t h a t I did is very muted, but rich.
It has kind of a golden, yellow ochre, orangish t o n a l i t y t h a t
plays on a cool, grey green clay body. And since t h e church
i t s e l f is j u s t t h e austere, natural concrete i n the w a l l s and
t h i s dark, almost black concrete i n the floor, t h i s warmth is
j u s t enough t o give it t h a t edge of feeling.
DeStaebler: 	 Unfortunately, the church, almost since the day I i n s t a l l e d
the work, has tended t o be a potpourri of a e s t h e t i c ideas,
and i t ' s never, unless they become extremely revisionary
and return i t t o t h e way I envisioned i t , going t o read
properly.
What happens, t h e r e ' r e d i f f e r e n t factions within the
church which is predictable because so many of the people,
especially the parish church people, have an old-fashioned
notion of what a church should look l i k e , s o they bring l o t s
of potted flowers and place them around t h e tabernacle i n
particular. There a r e some potted plants which seem t o be
there a l l the time t h a t turn i t from t h i s kind of sensuous
a u s t e r i t y i n t o some junglelike motif!
Then there're the banner people, and they're often the
younger people from the university, I think, who a r e caught
up i n t h i s folk-rock liturgy. I n themselves, there's nothing
wrong with these banners, but i n t h i s s e t t i n g it's j u s t l i k e
hearing some strange music being played while your own concept
of the music is going on. They've j u s t been disastrous,
these bright colored, enormous hangings on the wall. They're
there periodically, they're not permanent.
What seems t o be permanent, unforunately, a r e the a l t a r
cloths. They have these enormous, bright, garish pieces of
cloth that hang over the a l t a r , t h e a l t a r of repose, and
over the lectern. I n f a c t there's one on t h e l e c t e r n t h a t
hangs down a l l the way over the f r o n t of i t , hiding probably
the object ionable sensuous forms t h a t a r e i n that object .
When I go back I j u s t retch! I f e e l l i k e Jesus i n t h e
temple with t h e money-changers; I want t o throw a l l t h i s out.
For a long time I ' d indulge i n c e r t a i n g u e r i l l a t a c t i c s , l i k e
hiding a cushion that they would put on the acolytes' bench
behind t h e a l t a r . It was made out of some garish, puce green
Naugahyde! O r chartreuse would be closer t o the color. So
I would keep hiding that. Fortunately it hasn't been around
i n m
y l a s t few t r i p s ; maybe somebody f i n a l l y did i t in. I
couldn't bring myself t o l i t e r a l l y take it away and j u s t
destroy it.
The same thing with a l t a r cloths: when I was there
showing guests of mine I would r o l l up the a l t a r c l o t h and
show them a t l e a s t the form of the a l t a r a s i t was meant t o
be seen. These cloths j u s t desecrate them. I have nothing
against the idea of t h e cloth, because i n the l i t u r g y of
the church a particular church season has a p a r t i c u l a r color.
DeStaebler: But i f they were r e a l l y serious about the environment,
could commission a weaver o r someone t o deal with it.
understand why t h i s hasn't taken place.
they
I don't
Riess: There was no consideration of t h a t i n the very beginning when
you were working with Father Ritzius?
DeStaebler: Well, no, unfortunately there was never a r e a l concern about
that. I think it was always understood t h a t it would be
d e a l t with t a s t e f u l l y , and a s I r e c a l l there was some t a l k
about having a commission, someone who could hand-weave them
and do that.
Riess : The problem is t h a t you've had since h i s time nobody,
l i k e , who was r e a l l y committed t o i t the way he was.
it sounds
DeStaebler: That's right. L e t ' s see, Father Ritzius l e f t I think about
1969 o r '70, and i n the intervening years there have probably
been about four groups of p r i e s t s who have come and gone.
I n one case, a young p r i e s t has come back. H e ' s the only
returnee t h a t I know of.
I was j u s t r e a l i z i n g t h a t i n a l l of our planning one
thing t h a t w e overlooked were t h e candlesticks. So a s a g i f t
I made some bronze candlesticks f o r t h e church t h a t picked
up on t h i s f l a r i n g form where the base flowed out and i t made
them look a s though they were growing up out of the top of the
a l t a r . I c a s t them myself down a t m
y foundry i n my old studio.
They lasted about two years, and someone s t o l e them. Can you
believe i t ? [laughing]
Riess : Well, obviously you didn't have them i n t h e i r niches!
DeStaebler: They didn't have niches. I mean, had we thought of them a t
the time I think I would have proposed a niche. I did make a
niche f o r t h e reliquary stone; that f i t s i n t o a niche and
makes it flush with the a l t a r top. I also made t h e bronze
holder f o r the candle, which f l a r e s and nests onto t h e wall
near the tabernacle. I think t h a t ' s a very e f f e c t i v e minor
form.
I a l s o c a s t the tabernacle i t s e l f i n the a l t a r of repose.
I ' m very, very proud of t h a t because it involved a hinging
system which I developed and c a s t i n t e g r a l l y with the two
doors. The two doors open out l i k e t h i s [gesturing], and
because they had t o have i t lock, I incorporated a brass
locking drum i n t h e door, and so i t j u s t takes a simple key
twist t o open it. I noticed t h a t they placed a new lock i n
there. They must have l o s t t h e i r keys o r something and had
DeStaebler: 	 t o replace the whole drum, and they didn't bother t o patina
the f r o n t of the brass lock, so it kind of blares out a t you.
L i t t l e things l i k e t h a t h i t my eye, and those a r e r e a l sour
notes.
A t any r a t e , these doors open out and i n s i d e i s t h i s almost
apse-like space, a bronze casing t h a t f i t s inside the ceramic en-
trance. It's very much l i k e a cave. It kind of locks l i k e t h i s
[gesturing] and then the entrance opens up the doors and then
i t opens wider inside. And there's nothing quite s o beautiful
a s those shiny gold chalices i n t h a t muted yellow bronze
t h a t I c a s t it in. But you know what's happened i n a l l these
church reforms, they now have wooden vessels! They don't use
the gold chalice anymore, and so t h a t beautiful aesthetic is
l o s t , they j u s t have the funky l i t t l e wood things i n there.
But these a r e j u s t symptomatic of I think a general
lessening of a e s t h e t i c concern; I don't want t o say church-
wide, but certainly a t t h e Newman Center there's been a l o s s
of what the aesthetic presence of the sanctuary is. Father
Ritzius knew what it was, he appreciated it, and i n subse-
quent generations of p r i e s t s there's been a r e a l indifference
t o it. For a while I t r i e d t o educate them i n what the
a e s t h e t i c was, which would mean keep the banners away, keep
the potted plants out of the sanctuary proper, and resolve
the a l t a r cloth problem. But i t was l i k e spending my l i f e as
an educator and I gave up on it.
The Challenge of the Work
DeStaebler: 	 Then i n more recent years there's been outright h o s t i l i t y
shown toward t h e work by the p r i e s t s . I don't know whether
i t ' s s t i l l t h e same group, but l a s t year I got notified
through a friend who is kind of a go-between t h a t they were
seriously considering removing my work because they were
wanting a more f l e x i b l e space t o do other things with, l i k e
dramatic presentations and anything of a communal nature
where they needed t h a t kind of f l e x i b i l i t y .
Now, I don't quibble with t h a t a s a concept f o r a church,
but i f it i s n ' t incorporated i n t h e i n i t i a l scheme, t o come
along l a t e r and j u s t throw out the o r i g i n a l solution without
r e a l l y weighing what would be l o s t would s t r i k e m
e a s a very
unfortunate, u n j u s t i f i a b l e a c t . They never contacted me, so
I j u s t waited u n t i l something came more t o a head, and i t
DeStaebler: 	 never did. I think what they discovered is t h a t whatever they
had i n mind a s an a l t e r n a t i v e was going t o cost way too much
money. They did renovate t h e ceiling, which had asbestos i n
the p l a s t e r . I think t h a t much they did do.
I personally f e e l t h a t with a l i t t l e creative where-
withal t h e space a s i t now e x i s t s can accommodate the
tremendous amount of a c t i v i t i e s , such a s plays. Also the
a l t a r i t s e l f provides a great place f o r a free-thinking
speaker t o sit! Somebody told m
e t h a t the f i r s t time they
saw the church i t was t o hear Jean-Luc Godard give a t a l k
back i n the l a t e s i x t i e s , and he was s i t t i n g r i g h t up on
the a l t a r .
I don't think t h a t work would come out lightly. I mean
certainly anybody who t r i e s t o do it is going t o , I think,
meet with a l o t of opposition, and not j u s t from myself. I
a l s o have been told--I'm not sure of it but I've been told--
t h a t there's some law i n California t h a t a public work of art
cannot be removed or desecrated o r modified f o r f i f t y years
a f t e r i t s completion.
Riess: 	 And i n f a c t you might argue t h a t the a l t a r c l o t h s a r e
modifying it.
DeStaebler: 	 Yes, i f you wanted t o t r y t o drive i t home. You see then t h e
problem is t h a t very few people a r e visually l i t e r a t e , and
I don't mean t o say t h a t i n any kind of e l i t i s t sense, but
we know t h a t f o r a f a c t i n other walks of l i f e . Some people
have a musical ear and some people don't. Some people have
an extremely developed sense of t a s t e and others don't, and
those people with t h a t sense of t a s t e , and a l o t of haughty
t a l k about wine, seem t o push a l o t of other people the wrong
way, because they think the connoisseurs a r e making i t up.
But there it is. Some people a r e extremely s e n s i t i v e
visually and some people a r e not s o sensitive. And you cannot
make a person who i s n ' t visually aware see a problem. I f he
can't s e e i t , there's no problem. What's happened a f f e c t s
a minority of people with a v i s u a l orientation, and the others
a r e off i n some other realm which is important t o them but it
j u s t doesn't include the v i s u a l s e n s i b i l i t i e s very much.
Riess : 	 It sounds l i k e it a l s o demands some sense of t h e a t r i c a l i t y
from the p r i e s t s , and they're resisting. I ' m not surprised
t h a t they f e e l very challenged by that whole situation.
DeStaebler: 	 I think it does run i n t o c o n f l i c t with t h e i r t r a d i t i o n a l
notions of celebrating the service. For instance, rather
than accept our concept of the sanctuary--which c a l l s f o r
t h e congregation coming up t o the altar--the l a s t two o r
three generations.of p r i e s t s there (or longer, perhaps
since 1970 on) have placed t h i s funky l i t t l e wooden table
down a t the base of the steps, and the p r i e s t comes down t o
the t a b l e and the people don't even get up on the mound of
the sanctuary a t a l l . A l l they did was move the b a r r i e r
forward. Aesthetically it's a d i s a s t e r , t h i s l i t t l e table.
It's not even a good Victorian table, i t ' s j u s t some old
-
dark veneer-wood t a b l e t h a t they have a l i t t l e white cloth
on-it's l i k e serving lemonade on a picnic!
Riess: 	 So t h a t a l l of your work becomes a backdrop.
DeStaebler: 	 Yes, right. It doesn't involve the communicants kinestheti-
c a l l y .
I should say a word about that, because.I1ve f e l t very
strongly i n m
y work i n sculpture t h a t the experience the
person has of sculpture i s very kinesthetic. By t h a t I mean
i t ' s the experience of t h e body moving i n space. J u s t by
way of explanation of the word, I'd say t h a t we a l l r e a l i z e
t h a t people have the sense of touch--when you t a l k about the
senses you mention seeing and hearing and smelling and t a s t e
and touch--but kinesthesia i s the inner touch, the awareness
of our own bodies i n space. A dancer has t o have i t t o a
high degree, otherwise he couldn't coordinate t h e complexities
of dance movement. W e a l l have it, we a l l know where our
bodies a r e i n space, and likewise we know where we a r e i n
r e l a t i o n t o objects, so t h a t when w e experience sculptural
form o r architectural form we a r e coding it kinesthetically;
t h a t ' s what l e t s us walk backwards i n space, because we've
already coded i t , w e know what t h a t space is. And the
pleasure of the experience i s largely a kinesthetic exper-
ience.
When you, i n the sanctuary of the Newman Center, walk
up the i n c l i n e there's a great sense of private, secret
levitation. It's a very s l i g h t r i s e , but i t ' s j u s t enough
t o l i f t you above where you were before. It's t h a t dual
plane idea I was r e f e r r i n g t o i n the Byzantine church. J u s t
by changing elevation a couple of f e e t you a r e i n a d i f f e r e n t
mind-set, and t o deny t h a t , a s these p r i e s t s have f o r the
l a s t few years, is t o take away from t h e heart of the exper-
ience of the sanctuary. It i s n ' t j u s t something t o look a t ,
l i k e a backdrop, i t r s something t o p a r t i c i p a t e in. And so
I ' m very disappointed t h a t t h a t ' s been l o s t .
I
DeStaebler: 	 Another thing, while I ' m expressing disappointment [laughs],
we t r i e d t o get a baptismal font i n t h e i n i t i a l scheme.
made a quarter-inch-scale model t o show what I would l i k e t o
do. It called f o r a reversal i n t h e mound over i n the f a r
corner of the chapel. That would be t h e southeast corner,
and it would have been a s l i g h t dip, l i k e going i n t o a pool.
It would have been about a foot below the grade of the floor,
and t h e font would have nested i n t o a niche l i k e the other
objects and would have been formed with a small basin f o r
water. That j u s t didn't get anywhere.
One p r i e s t , years l a t e r , back i n the mid-seventies, was
trying t o resurrect it. He called me, and I said, of course,
I ' d be interested i n doing i t , but nothing has come of it.
That's again one of the problems. They don't stay long
enough t o carry through complicated projects l i k e t h i s .
You know, it takes long-term dedication.
R i e s s : 	 Have you ever had a chance t o do something l i k e t h i s i n
another church s e t t i n g ?
DeStaebler: 	 No, I must say t h a t I f e l t a l o t of disappointment i n t h a t
regard because I f e l t I made an original contribution t o
t h i s church. In f a c t , I think very few people could r e a l l y
sense the o r i g i n a l i t y of it. This most recent group of
p r i e s t s who wanted t o remove a l l the work c l e a r l y couldn't
s e e any v i r t u e i n it. I mean they were w i l l i n g t o go t o
thousands and thousands i n expense t o get r i d of something.
What's kind of disappointed me is t h a t a t l e a s t some
a r c h i t e c t s who might, you know, be doing a church somewhere
down the l i n e haven't seen the p o t e n t i a l of what I did.
What I was trying t o do, I ' d say, was t o i n t e g r a t e my
forms with architecture t o a degree t h a t most l i t u r g i c a l
a r t doesn't do. Most l i t u r g i c a l art, i n m
y opinion, tends
t o be veneer, decorative, after-the-thought application.
Stations of t h e cross a r e stuck on the wall. The c r u c i f i x
is stuck somewhere. The other objects are, a s I was saying,
l i k e f u r n i t u r e r e s t i n g on the floor, and not integrated.
And the attempt t o get a t c e r t a i n earthlike sensibilities--
you know, t h i s merging of the forms out of t h e f l o o r and
t h i s kind of eruption upward--I've never seen anywhere else.
And I think it's an especially appropriate expression within
the r e l i g i o u s context.
Religion which deals only i n ethereal matters tends t o
lose the d u a l i t y of human existence; you know, our f e e t i n
the earth, emerging out of the e a r t h and returning t o t h e
DeStaebler: 	 e a r t h , ashes t o ashes, dust t o dust. The r e l i g i o u s dimension
of l i f e comes i n s p i t e of t h i s earth-rooted r e a l i t y t h a t we
a l l share. To t r y t o whitewash that, a s I think so much of
l i t u r g i c a l a r t does, is t o end up with a gutless s o r t of
half-truth, which i s no t r u t h a t all.
The C'rucifi x
DeStaebler: 	 Let me j u s t say a word about the crucifix. The c r u c i f i x
i t s e l f i s life-size. The figure is about f i v e and a half
f e e t high and the cross i s about eight f e e t t a l l and the
span of the cross i s about seven f e e t . The figure is done
q u i t e n a t u r a l i s t i c a l l y . It's not stylized i n the sense of
so much modern a r t . I think there's been a tendency i n
c r u c i f i x a r t t o s t y l i z e t h e human being out of existence,
or t o make Christ so hyper-re,alistic t h a t there's no room
f o r poetic metaphor.
The crucified Christ i n the Newman Center is very
n a t u r a l i s t i c , but he's i n a bed-like cross. The cross is
very s o f t . I n f a c t the space behind h i s head generates
the sense of a halo, o r aura. There's no mechanical halo.
The head e x i s t s i n i t s own niche, kind of a s o f t , hemi-
spherical depression. And the cross undulates with the
body. It's almost a s i f he's being absorbed i n t o the cross
and a l s o emerging out of it.
Surrounding the cross i t s e l f is an undulating e a r t h
shape. It creates a k i t e l i k e configuration, which I like.
It doesn't look l i k e a k i t e , but i n my mind I think of a
k i t e soaring, i t ' s as i f i t f l o a t s . And the position of
the crucifix, i n t h a t c r i t i c a l point t h a t I w a s t e l l i n g you
about e a r l i e r , makes i t both hover and ascend. It i s n ' t
placed up so high t h a t i t seems inaccessible t o the wor-
shiper. It's not down so low on the other hand t h a t i t ' s
intimate. I t ' s at some hover point between being of the
worshiper's space and of a higher space.
And also, again with Father Ritzius 's encouragement,
the c r u c i f i x i t s e l f is a-I think h i s term was a trans-
cendent Christ. It i s n ' t a Christ overtly suffering,
although I did the whole iconography of the wound, you know,
the lance wound of the soldier, but no blood, nothing l i k e
the Spanish Baroque would have done! And n a i l holes, but
again very muted; no n a i l s , i n other words. H e i s n ' t
physically attached. It's there i n transcendence with the
remnants of t h e wounds but not the source of the wounds.
DeStaebler: There was t h i s desire on Father R i t z i u s ' s p a r t t h a t the
crucified Christ be a t t h a t point beyond the suffering it-
s e l f . So he looks out. There's none of t h e t o r t u r e of t h e
whole period of Christian a r t which seemed t o r e a l l y get
going with t h e Counter Reformation. Well--it was there
before. One of m
y favorite crucifixes, the Cimabue c r u c i f i x
i n Florence--the one t h a t got damaged s o badly i n t h e flood--
t h a t ' s an agonizing crucified Christ. The head i s so f a r
over t h a t these neck muscles a r e p r a c t i c a l l y horizontal.
I have a photograph of it i n the house, I'll show you.
The Bottom Line
Riess : How much were you paid f o r your Newman Center job?
DeStaebler: Oh, gosh. It's s o l i t t l e now. I kind of hate t o make public
these things, but I guess i t ' s a l l right.
Riess : You don't r e a l l y have to.
DeStaebler: Well, l e t me leave i t t h i s way! [laughter] A t the time I
think I f e l t i t took courage t o ask as much a s I did, but i n
retrospect it was s o l i t t l e money. It was j u s t not enough
t o pay n
i
e a minimal wage f o r a l l t h e time put i n t o it. That
doesn't bother me. I mean I ' m j u s t so fortunate t o have done
i t t h a t I overlook t h a t fact. I've discovered i n sculptural
commissions, you seldom r e a l l y a r e remunerated i n accordance
with what you put i n t o it. It i s n ' t l i k e some other walk of
l i f e where production is mechanical with a setup where you
get the j i g ready and then turn out t h e product. You l i v e
it and breathe it f o r the whole time t h a t you're involved i n
i t , which i s what you l i v e f o r ; I mean you do it f o r t h a t
experience.
And i t did help me at a very c r i t i c a l time i n m
y l i f e ,
because it was a time when the kids were s t a r t i n g t o demand
more, and we a l s o wanted t o move t o a bigger house, and
g e t t i n g the payments f o r the Newman work l e t us move over t o
our l a s t house on Tamalpais Road. So i t had some material
rewards i n t h a t sense, but i n answer t o your question I
don't even want t o quote t h e amount because i n 1983 d o l l a r s
it's a d i f f e r e n t value of the dollar and it j u s t makes me
wince!
Stephen DeStaeblerls Background, and Influences
Experiencing Places of Worship
DeStaebler: Let m
e f i n i s h your question [asked when t h e tape was not on].
What I ' m saying about scale i n a Gothic cathedral is t h a t
when everything is i n proportion, you can have t h i s vast
space above you and it i s n ' t intimidating, it i s n ' t a power
t r i p , it i s n ' t too much. I n a Gothic experience there's
something about the stained g l a s s imagery I think t h a t ' s
awfully important t o it, because i f you have t h i s hierarchy
of human figures which occupy the higher spaces, i t makes
for an i d e n t i f i c a t i o n between you on the ground and them up
i n space t h a t makes t h e church i t s e l f somehow intimate, even
though it's s o vast.
I've never been i n a Byzantine cathedral l i k e Hagia
Sophia; I ' d love t o have t h a t experience of t h i s vast dome
space. I think t h a t must be one of -
the great a r c h i t e c t u r a l
experiences ever made. There's something about the vastness
of those domes. I've only seen them i n photographs so I
don't know what it's l i k e i n r e a l i t y . But i f a dome i n
Galla Placidia i s twenty-five f e e t high and can do what it
did t o me, I wonder what a vast dome a hundred o r so f e e t
above would do.
Riess : You've seen the Pantheon?
DeStaebler: I've been i n the Pantheon, yes. And there's something about
that which is a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t i n that the dome comes down
very close t o the ground. You know, t h e w a l l i t s e l f , the
v e r t i c a l , f l a t w a l l , is not a l l t h a t high a s I r e c a l l . Again
i t ' s a matter of proportion. W e project out from our own
bodies, proportionately t o our own body units. Corbusier
did t h a t very systematically with h i s elaborate r a t i o s between
p a r t s of the human body.
R i e s s : Well, i t ' s a kind of rationalizing of t h a t kinesthetics thing
you were talking about.
DeStaebler: Yes, i n a way, kind of echoes o r reverberations or ripples
out from ourselves; l i k e a pebble i n water we tend t o resonate
with an architectural space i f there is t h a t resonance going
on. Churches t h a t f a i l to resonate then become the wowsers;
they create a big space, but without any proportional approach
t o it.
Riess: I would think it would be wonderful i f you could find a
c l i e n t who would have you do a small chapel, a small, pure,
famous chapel l i k e the Ronchamp or something l i k e that.
DeStaebler: O r Vence, by Matisse. With j u s t t h e optimum conditions it
would r e a l l y be a wonderful experience. What I ' m trying t o
do with the painting i s largely a kind of religious yearning,
and the formal canvas is a compromise i n a sense, i t ' s not
the same thing a s the wall i t s e l f . I n Christian a r t , the
fresco wall o r the mosaic wall o r t h e sculptural r e l i e f wall
a r e so c r i t i c a l t o the experience.
For instance, when Rothko did the paintings f o r the
chapel i n Houston, he was r e a l l y compromising. The canvases
w i l l convey a c e r t a i n amount, but not the same a s walls
resonating.
A r t History and Religion Studies a t Princeton
Riess : The Rothko exhibition recently i n t h e San Francisco Museum of
Modern A r t was i n a l i t t l e room, and it was l i k e a l i t t l e
chapel, very beautiful. I never thought of Rothko and religion.
DeStaebler: W e l l , I think i t was h i s only religious commission. I think
many a r t i s t s a r e very r e l i g i o u s i f you take away t h e s p e c i f i c s
of t h a t term. Who i s n ' t religious, when you g e t r i g h t down
t o i t ? W e a r e a l l concerned about the ultimate questions
t h a t r e l i g i o n attempts t o give some shape to. Whether we
subscribe t o someone e l s e ' s shaping, some formal r e l i g i o n ' s
answers o r not, doesn't make us religious o r unreligious.
It means t h a t I think many a r t i s t s who would be the l a s t t o
c a l l themselves r e l i g i o u s have these yearnings. They somehow
want t o create an order t h a t includes them but transcends
them a t the same time.
Riess : W
h
y did you major i n religion i n college?
DeStaebler: Well, I don't know how much tape you've got, but I ' l l t r y t o
give a short answer. I'd always thought of myself a s an
a r t i s t from a young kid on, I had gotten a l l t h i s encourage-
ment from m
y family--if anything, too much encouragement so
t h a t I reached t h a t point somewhere where I didn't know
whether it was me who wanted t o be an a r t i s t o r m
y parents
who wanted m e t o be an a r t i s t . But by the time I got t o
college I reasserted m
y image of myself a s an a r t i s t and I
wanted t o go t o an a r t school.
DeStaebler: 	 My dad argued against t h a t and said, "Well, look. W
h
y don't
you go t o a l i b e r a l a r t s college and see how it goes."
So I said, "Okay, I'll make a pact. I'll go two years
t o get a l i b e r a l a r t s education, and i f I ' m not happy i n my:
a r t I'll t r a n s f e r t o an a r t school."
Well, the f a c t i s I was completely happy i n m
y f i r s t two
years a t Princeton. My sophomore year is when I did the
stained glass window and some other work. And t h a t was with-
out an a r t department. They didn't have, and they s t i l l r e a l l y
don't even have a studio a r t program on a curricular basis--
they have an extracurricular program. It meant I did t h i s a l l
extracurricularly. Then when t h e junior year rolled around I
had t o declare a major, and I chose a r t h i s t o r y because I liked
it and had done very well i n it up t o t h a t point.
But when I got i n t o the major, which required extensive
research papers, I got i n t o a block. I couldn't do my own
a r t anymore, I couldn't do the a r t h i s t o r y ; there was a r e a l
c o n f l i c t going on. So my solution was t o r e t r e a t entirely.
I gave up the idea i n my mind of being an a r t i s t , I q u i t the
a r t history major, and I swung t o another i n t e r e s t , which had
been l a t e n t i n m
y f i r s t two years i n college.
Essentially t h e choice of r e l i g i o n was because of one
professor, George Thomas a t Princeton. I ' d taken a course
with him a s a sophomore and I kind of loved the man; not kind
o f , I r e a l l y did. I mean, he's one of those few teachers who
r e a l l y touched m
e and brought the whole world of t h e e t e r n a l
i n t o m
y l i f e . I can't describe i t , it was j u s t because of
h i s own bearing, h i s own kind of glow, t h a t I had t h i s feeling
and a t t r a c t i o n . So I majored i n r e l i g i o n largely out of t h a t
problem of escaping the conflict i n art,and a t t r a c t i o n t o
George Thomas.
I had an exciting and a dismal experience studying about
religion. The dismal s i d e of it was reading about religious
e q e r i e n c e of others and wondering what the h e l l it was!
And being frustrated ultimately because i t was verbalized
and not embodied i n living, so I was very glad t o f i n i s h
formal education.
It was a humanitarian approach t o religion, it was not
denominational i n any sense. It c e r t a i n l y wasn't theological,
although we studied about theology. B u t . i t was a broad study
of religion and culture, and I found it very interesting.
wrote m
y t h e s i s on St. Francis of A s s i s i and developed a r e a l
empathy with him, so t h a t t h a t was a very positive experience.
I
DeStaebler: 	 I think what I was encountering and didn't know i t a t the
time was almost a c l a s s i c confrontation of left-brain-right-
brain worlds. What happens when you study a r t history i s
that you begin t o depend more and more on your l e f t hemi-
sphere. The whole s t r u c t u r e of a r t history i s articulated
according t o meanings not i n t r i n s i c t o the a r t work. The
work has meaning i n a c e r t a i n context, and what happens i s
you become trained t o see the work i n the contextual way
and you cease t o experience the work i n an immediate
a e s t h e t i c way.
And I was so good a t it--I was getting A pluses-it
would seem crazy t o not major i n it. But i t was one of
those survival decisions t h a t I r e a l i z e now was everything.
A r t history has somehow l o s t i t s own juices, and maybe it's
been j u s t t e r r i b l y vulnerable t o the academic mind.
Riess: 	 Well, a l o t of the juices were the juices t h a t were
close t o religion, the symbols and iconography.
DeStaebler: 	 Yes. I mean these powerful things t h a t a r e r e a l l y beyond
words; a s soon a s you reduce some of these powerful symbols
t o words they seem mundane. They lose t h e i r magic by being
translated i n t o an inappropriate vehicle. That's why, say,
l t t u r g i c a l a r t cannot be substituted by something else. I
mean i f you want t o have the senses contribute t o the relig-
ious experience, then you've got t o give them t h e i r sway.
You can't somehow truncate them, l i k e the Protestant Reforma-
t i o n t r i e d t o do. You can't have your cake and e a t it too,
and I think the Protestant t r a d i t i o n by and large has been
an impoverished t r a d i t i o n f o r l i t u r g i c a l a r t , say, i n
contrast t o t h e way the Catholic t r a d i t i o n has gone, or the
Byzantine.
The Mesh of the Visual and Aural
DeStaebler: 	 There is a point a t which you have t o l e t it go o r stop i t
short. A New England church is a good example, where it stops
short. No stained glass, you know, but t h e r e ' s something
about the l i g h t on white walls which is s o overwhelming t h a t
t h a t i n i t s e l f i s its own aesthetic and i t s own symbol.
There's something about a New England climate, something
about t h a t a u s t e r i t y of the a i r . It's r i g h t , i t t s a perfect
resolution of the religious impulse t o have a purified l i g h t
and whiteness and an unadorned quality.
DeStaebler: 	 I n other situations, the kitchen sink, everything is thrown
i n t o it, l i k e High Baroque and German Baroque, say. It's
not r e a l l y m
y cup of tea, but I find I ' m drawn t o i t because
I think t h e r e ' s a kind of an honesty i n the t h e a t r i c a l i t y
of it. (Now, i f it was a d i f f e r e n t conversation I might say
j u s t the opposite though. Sometimes there's a time when I
think the t h e a t r i c a l i t y is r e a l l y working against the
religious impulse, and I ' m very ambivalent about i t . )
Human beings f a l l i n vastly d i f f e r e n t ends of t h e spec-
trum between asceticism and sensuality, and I ' d say t h a t
t h a t church which embodies one o r the other with open arms
can be extremely satisfying. Churches which get somewhere
caught i n compromise often a r e the worst. There's kind of
l i k e a timid reach toward the opulent, t h e stunningly
beautiful, and then a r e t r e a t t o something austere. But
a u s t e r i t y i t s e l f i s an a r t form, l i k e minimal a r t ; it needs
t o be cultivated with a very f i n e sense of reductionism and
i f it i s n ' t done well i t ' s dead. You can't j u s t keep a
church clean and have i t have t h e s p i r i t . It takes a c e r t a i n
kind of reduction t h a t is a high a r t i n i t s e l f . You know,
l e s s can be more, l i k e Mies van der Rohe liked t o say. It's
-
not c l e a r t h a t by adding opulence, l i k e the Baroque did,
t h a t the s p i r i t i s r e a l l y enhanced.
Of course, we separate t h e v i s u a l from the aural. You
think of hearing some Baroque music i n a High Baroque church,
now t h a t ' s r e a l l y something, you know, t o get the f u l l impact.
Baroque music is doing i n sound what Baroque architecture and
l i t u r g i c a l a r t were doing visually. A c e r t a i n underlying
order which is r e a l l y architectonic is embellished with so
much playfulness and counterpoint and overlap t h a t t h e under-
lying order is a l l but forgotten. You know, t h a t wonderful
return t o the sense of order a f t e r having been i n a kind of
a fantasy of almost random lushness; i t ' s r e a l l y a satisfying
counterbalance t o have order and seeming nonorder coexist and
yet never become chaos.
Riess : 	 What's t h e best music f o r t h e Newman sanctuary?
DeStaebler: 	 Well, they never got t h e i r organ! [laughing] That was the
pet project of the previous p r i e s t , the one t h a t Mario Ciampi
began working with, I think i n the l a t e f i f t i e s . I don't
know.
Riess : 	 But I mean f o r your work.
DeStaebler: 	 Well, funny, I never thought about it! I don't know; I
don't know what t h e music would be. I haven't minded folk-
rock, but when I ' v e been t o a mass o r two when they had t h a t
kind of singing it didn't seem a t a l l appropriate. But I
never figured out what t h a t music might be.
The music I f e l l i n love with when I was i n college was
church music our choir sang, and t h a t was Renaissance church
music. I sang i n a choir with a d i r e c t o r who was extremely
involved i n recreating some ideas t h a t were developing i n
the Renaissance. W
e sang a l o t of Giovanni Gabrieli's
music. He and h i s brother Andrea were the developers of
the antiphonal choir, and what it involved was one u n i t of
the choir s i t t i n g on one s i d e of the sanctuary and the other
on the other, singing back and forth.
Well, t h i s developed a t the cathedral of San Marco i n
Venice, and by sheer coincidence I arrived i n Venice when I
was a -kid, you know traveling around on m
y own, i n t h e middle
of August, and I walked i n t o San Marco and the High Mass f o r
the Virgin--you know, the Assumption of t h e Virgin--was going
on, and here w a s t h i s Gabrieli music being sung i n San Marco,
and t h e acoustical interchange was j u s t overwhelming. Now
t h a t was a fusion of architecture and sound, music, t h a t
1'11 never forget.
W
e t r i e d it, when I sang i n the Princeton choir, i n t h e
Metropolitan Museum i n New York. Carl Weinrich, the director,
got permission t o give a concert i n t h e great bay of the
museum, and there a r e these domed spaces, and we set our-
selves up antiphonally, but i t wasn't l i k e San Marco, although
it was a great, great performance. I r e a l l y liked it.
The thing about sound i n space, we a l l know how potent
it is, but usually it's t o t a l l y random, and a r c h i t e c t s a r e
probably i n t h e dark a s t o what creates t h a t optimal s i t u a t i o n
f o r resonance, acoustics, and whatnot. They're always over
barrels. They say, "Do i t r i g h t f o r the music,'' and then the
human voice when the p r i e s t t a l k s is l o s t . They had t o do a l l
kind of complicated b a f f l i n g i n the Newman Center t o make the
spoken word audible. You know, they had t o muff i t through
an amplification system, s o I doubt i f i t ' s an i d e a l musical
space.
Music can kind of make a space throb. Certainly it
happened a t the Princeton Chapel. I can remember Weinrich
on t h a t organ h i t t i n g some of those low r e g i s t e r s with the
foot pedals where the cycles per second i t was so few t h a t
it was hardly a sound anymore, but the pews and everyone j u s t
[making low sound]. Oh, j u s t t h e energy i n t h a t organ!
DeStaebler: 	 So t h a t was probably -
the formative experience f o r me, when
I think about it. Perhaps t h a t more than the visual. But
i t came simultaneously. I never thought about t h a t , but
probably what was the great g i f t of t h a t college education-
while I was i n a sense f u l f i l l i n g m
y f a t h e r ' s wishes--was t o
have t h a t experience of seeing religious a r t f r o r the f i r s t
t i m e , l i k e t h e Medieval a r t through Kurt Weitzmann's course,
and then singing i n the choir--both my sophomore year, t h e
same time I did the window, St. Peter denying Christ.
And I have a feeling t h a t something was s e t i n me for-
ever, t h a t a l l the a r t t h a t I've done since then--although
except f o r the Newman Center it hasn't d e a l t with religion
per se--somehow aspires t o a sense of the human condition.
You know, what we a r e caught up in, how w e persevere i n s p i t e
of what can be looked a t a s r e a l l y a pessimistic scenario.
Because what we're a l l up against is t h i s r e a l i z a t i o n that
sooner o r l a t e r , some of us I ' m sure sooner than others,
t h a t we're not going t o be around f o r very long, t h a t death
is there, inescapable--and our love is d i r e c t l y o r indirectly
a response t o that.
Transcriber : Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Religious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Charles Warren C a l l i s t e r
CREATING PLACES O
F WORSHIP AND CONTEMPLATION
An Interview Conducted by 

Suzanne B. Riess 

i n . 1983 

Copyright @ 1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE OF CONTENTS -- C h a r l e s W a r r e n C a l l i s t e r
INTERVIEW HISTORY
POSTWAR BAY AREA PEOPLE AND PLACES
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE CKURCH, BELVEDERE
G e t t i n g the C o m m i s s i o n
C r a f t s m e n , T h e n and Now
P a r t i c i p a t i o n i n the D e s i g n
THE MILL VALLEY CHRISTIAN' SCIENCE CHURCH, AND THE IDEA O F
ARCHITECTURE AS PROCESS
COMMITTEES, DETAILS, DECISIONS
MILLS COLLEGE CHAPEL, DESIGN I N THE ROUND
ARCHITECTURE TODAY, SEARCHING FOR MEANING AND COMMUNITY
THE MARKETERS O F ARCHITECTURE
BAY AREA CHURCH ARCHITECTURE
INTERVIEW HISTORY
High up on the l i s t of admired and emulated California church buildings
is t h e F i r s t Church of Christ, S c i e n t i s t , Belvedere. It is a very f i n e
wood and concrete church, with faceted glass windows by the Cummings Studio,
a beautiful i n t e r i o r color scheme, perfection of s i t i n g , and a happy evoca-
t i o n of the o r i g i n a l log cabin meeting place of t h e congregatipn, which had
grown t o need new quarters a f t e r the post-World War I1 population boom.
After t h a t church was completed i n 1951, the C a l l i s t e r and Payne firm
did the F i r s t Church of Christ, S c i e n t i s t , i n M i l l Valley, i n 1965. With
J. Martin Rosse, i n 1968 Warren C a l l i s t e r did a chapel f o r the Unitarian
Church i n San Francisco, and i n 1978, i n Pasadena, the A l l Saints Episcopal
Church. I n 1967 t h e firm was given the choice commission t o do an inter-
denominational chapel a t M i l l s College. Those buildings c o n s t i t u t e the
r e l i g i o u s body of architectural work t h a t Warren C a l l i s t e r has been involved
with. He shares h i s thoughts on work with church c l i e n t s , t h e need f o r
places of worship, and sticking t o absolutely f i r s t - c l a s s workmanship.
The interview was recorded a t t h e C a l l i s t e r o f f i c e i n Tiburon, under
the most gracious of circumstances. Warren C a l l i s t e r ' s architectural
p r a c t i c e is, by h i s testimony, j u s t about ideal. The place, the people,
the interpenetration of work and home community a l l serve t o make i t so.
The reader w i l l gather t h a t the interviewer was given a s l i d e show t h a t
developed visually the California context of C a l l i s t e r ' s ideas f o r church
forms, a s well a s given a tour of the variety of projects underway i n the
C a l l i s t e r , Gately & Bischoff office. It i s t h e major drawback i n a subject-
oriented o r a l history s e r i e s t h a t the whole story of the man who has worked
out such a s a t i s f y i n g creative l i f e has t o remain only a dimly perceived
background t e x t .
Suzanne B. Riess
Interviewer-Editor
October 1984
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California a t Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please print o r write clearly)
Your f u l l name
Date of b i r t h . I . Place of b i r t h 'i)\OC\4c?Ao( -
!ys\' 

Father's f u l l name
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Birthplace ,
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other's f u l l name
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Birthplace \JJ;*i$ca , y\I .
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m e r e did YOU grow up ? NJ.,
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iii 

Callister Gatelv&Bischoff

Architecture and CommunityDesign
April 22, 1983
Ms. Suzanee R i ~ s s
Regional Oral History Office
The Bancroft Library
University o f Cali
fornia
Berkeley, C
A 94720
Dear Suzanne:
The l i s t you requested - Charles Warren Call i s t e r - churches
F i r s t Church of Christ, Scientist 1951
Be1vedere, Cali
fornia
F i r s t Church o f Christ, Scientist
M i11 Val ley, California
1965
Chapel f o r M i 11s Co1lege
Oakland, California
F i r s t Unitarian Church*
San Francisco, CLlifornia
1968
*joint venture with J. lrlartin Rosse
A11 Saints Epjscopal Church 1978
Pasadena, Cal ifornia
S incerely ,
Marcia Felton
1865 hlar\'Gest Box 377 Tiburon,California 94920-0377 415 435-4513
CharlesWarren Callister, David K.Gately,A.1.A., James Bischoff, Joseph0.
Newberry, architect
Gar? Scott Kneeland; architect Michael Heckmann, architect Marcia Felton,administration
CHARLES W
A
R
R
E
N CALLISTER
Studied architecture and f i n e arts, Cniversit y of Texas,
1935-41
Corps of Engineers and U.S. A i r Corps, 1941-45
1946 established architectural o f f i c e i n San Francisco
1946 t o 1955 developed architectural practice of
essential l y custom residences
1955 moved o f f i c e t o Belvedere/Tiburon j u s t north of
San Francisco
1955 extended practice t o include public schools, churcties,
university projects, and 1arge scale cnmunit y planning and
housinq
1955 t o 1969 formed j o i n t venture project p a r t n e r s h i ~ s
with
John 1.:. Payne and J. Martin Rosse
1968 f i r s t establ ished Eastern office, now 1ocated i n Amhcrst,
Ilassachusetts
1969 established formal corporate venture o f C a l l i s t e r and
Payne
Calli s t e r , Payne and Bischoff establ isned 1972
Callfster, Cate?y 3nd Bischoff estab'ished 1981
(John M. Payne deceased, 1977)
Lecturer i n architecture, Stanford Lniversity, since 1961;
v i s i t i n g lecturer i n architecture, Syracuse University, 1962
and 1965; Columbia University, 1962; Gniversities o f Colorado,
1963, B r i t i s h Columbia, 1964, California, Texas, Oregon,
Cal i f o r n i a Polytechnic Institute, and East-h'est Center of the
University o f Hawaii, 1966; University of ?lassachusetts, 1973
Urban Land I n s t f tute' f 1982 Award for Excellence f o r
Large-Scale Development -- Her1tage V i 11age, Southbury, CT
San Francisco A r t C m i s s i o n Award o f Honor f o r exceptional
achievement i n the f i e l d of architecture
CREATING PLACES O
F WORSHIP AND CONTEMPLATION
[Date of Interview: May 5, 19831
Postwar Bav Area P e o ~ l e
and Places
C a l l i s t e r : They're giving me an award f o r our architecture from t h e art
commission of San Francisco, so I've been writing a brief
autobiography, and I've r e a l l y t r i e d t o say what a r e t h e
past things t h a t had the greatest influence on me--rather
than necessarily what were t h e sequences of my architectural
events.
The Bay Area was a great enticement t o me. I was i n the
service during World War I1 a s a p i l o t , s o I would f l y out
here and land i n t h i s area. Even from the a i r , t h i s place
looked so marvelous. [laughs] The Bay Area was absolutely
infatuating a t t h e end of the war. There was an inspiring
mood then t h a t I have n o t seen since. There were a tremendous
number of people here waiting f o r the war t o be over--
p a r t i c u l a r l y women, waiting f o r the soldiers t o return. And
it was a t t h i s time t h a t I arrived i n San Francisco.
San Francisco had a friendly, wonderful sense. And its
weather and its climate were i n such contrast t o what I had
known up t o t h a t time. I had lived i n Texas, and Texas was
t e r r i b l y hot. This was a t a time i n Texas a b i t before a i r
conditioning had become very prevalent.
R i e s s : You got your architecture training i n Texas?
C a l l i s t e r : Y e s , I did, a t the University of Texas.
Riess : When you're talking about t h e mood, and the climate, you're
talking about the kind of creative s t u f f [William] Wurster
and [Thomas] Church and people l i k e t h a t were doing?
C a l l is t e r : 	 Yes. This came t o my attention r i g h t away, although I knew
a good deal about the Bay Area when I arrived here. The Bay
Area already had a stance i n terms of architecture, more so
than any other place I had seen. It had a grand feeling.
It was not j u s t the a r c h i t e c t s of the time, i t was a l s o the
t o t a l sense of the c i t y i t s e l f , and the beauty of the place.
Then the Oriental influences and the whole cosmopolitan aspect
was very persuasive, which I think influenced the culture
tremendously i n the Bay Area.
Also, the climate gives you great freedom t h a t you don't
have i n other places; with no extremes of temperature, the
climate generates a reposeful atmosphere. Around t h e Bay
Area, of course, you have a l l kinds of climates, too, and
t h a t ' s nice i n giving great variety.
Riess : 	 Did you come with some idea, some kind of passion a s a young
architect, f o r what you wanted t o -
do i n architecture?
C a l l i s t e r : Well, with architecture a t t h a t time--I suppose i t was a
combination of things t h a t occurred. Planning a t t h a t time
was new, you know, there was not such a thing a s planning,
per se. I n f a c t i n order t o study planning a t the University
of Texas, t h e nearest I could come t o planning was t o study
sociology. Although, there was one man, Hugo Leipziger,
a refugee from Germany, who was holding informal seminars i n
planning which were inspiring t o many of us. He was a great
teacher. Hugo's a dear friend of mine. I always accuse him
today t h a t p a r t of h i s success a s a professor was because
we didn't understand what he was saying. [laughter] But
t h a t was the very beginning of teaching planning a t Texas
University.
When we came out here there was a group called Telesis
which was i n t o c i t y planning and t h a t was an i n t e r e s t i n g
event. Jack Hillmer and myself, and I guess P h i l i p Buskirk
and Johnny Pryor and Victor Probst, a l l from Texas University,
s o r t .of joined forces with t h a t group. W
e went t o t h e i r
meetings, and we entertained, and a l l t h a t s o r t of thing, i n
trying t o generate public i n t e r e s t i n planning.
And t h a t was a beginning of s o r t of an excitement t h a t
came about a f t e r a war among architects, of what might now
happen. W
e thought, "Now t h a t we're through with t h e war,
what a r e we going t o &." It was very stimulating.
Riess: 	 Did you do a l o t of public work then?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 No. Well, actually, I s t a r t e d an o f f i c e with Texas friends 

without any of u s having experience, because a f t e r f i v e years 

i n the service wetihoughtwe -
had t o get on with our work. I 

remember Ernest Kump--going t o see him, j u s t t o discuss 

architecture--and he thought i t was outrageous t h a t we didn't 

want t o f i r s t gain any experience, and have a license, but 

simply intended t o s t a r t our architectural office. Ernest 

has since become a very good friend, and l a t e r assisted me

i n making my way through the trauma of beginning an architec- 

t u r a l practice. 

Anyway, the Bay Area is and was an inspiration t o me,
there 's no question about it. Although Sibyl Moholy-Nagy
once said, "No great a r t would ever come from here because
there a r e n o ~ e a s o n s . " I ' m not so sure about t h a t . Maybe
i t ' s t h a t a l l of the seasons here a r e inspiring and we need
not s u f f e r winter t o find spring.
Riess: 	 Well, t h a t ' s the old Puritan ethic.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 You have t o agonize t o do great work, I suppose. I don't
believe t h a t at a l l .
Riess : 	 What were the big excitements architecturally?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 As I say, the mood of the place, t h e grace of the place. And
then wood, i n a sense, is an exciting Bay Area phenomena; its
prevalence here, of course, is an a r c h i t e c t u r a l influence.
And the lack of any masonry statements, mainly because of the
earthquake problems, and so forth. You saw very l i t t l e masonry.
As we saw j u s t the other day i n the Coalinga earthquake, i t ' s
the masonry buildings t h a t a r e f a l l i n g down. Wood, p a r t i c u l a r l y
i n smaller projects and i n r e s i d e n t i a l work, and so forth,
becomes very important.
Riess: 	 It never occurred t o me t o think about l i t u r g i c a l a r t i n terms
of the environmental excitement and the post-war Renaissance,
but I suppose maybe i t f i t s i n a s well a s anything. Do you
think so?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Oh, no doubt. There was a resurgence of religious f a i t h a t
the time. It was very strong, and there was a post-war antici-
pation, an anticipation on every side, i n everything, t h a t
peace would bring about a great new l i f e . And so t h a t excite-
ment j u s t carried i n t o r e l i g i o n a s well. .
Religion was a way of joining i n t o the Bay Area l i f e , too.
There were a l o t of people who came here, you know, a l o t of
strangers. I think t h a t t h e religious communities t h a t were
C a l l i s t e r : s e t up were very, very important i n finding a s o c i a l home,
a community home. That became very important. Otherwise you
were a t a l o s s , i n a way.
I think schools, and churches,
things became significant.
and a l l the i n s t i t u t i o n a l
Riess : Yes. And they a l l needed t o be b u i l t .
C a l l i s t e r : A l l needed t o be b u i l t . They were a l l without homes--schools
without homes, and churches without places, really. The expan-
sion was tremendous. Everybody dreamed i n the P a c i f i c arena
of the war of coming back t o the Top of the Mark. W
h
y they
ever changed -
its design, I have no idea. They should go back
t o [Timothy] Pf leuger 's original design there, because t h a t 's
a h i s t o r i c thing. It was a symbol, a crazy symbol. It was
one of those a r c h i t e c t u r a l h i s t o r i c a l things, within t h a t
space, within another building, indeed on top of the building,
which Pf leuger did, which was very important.
--
That's a very sentimental thing, I suppose, but neverthe-
l e s s , it was part of what generated t h i s t e r r i f i c excitement
f o r the Bay Area, which certainly has caused it t o be a home
f o r a c e r t a i n type of people, I think. It's changed now, but
f o r a while, you had t o appreciate the a e s t h e t i c o r the pace
and so f o r t h of those times. It is and was slow-paced compared
t o New York o r compared t o Chicago o r compared to, even the
south, even Dallas, I ' d say. And particularly Los Angeles--
it always had and s t i l l does have a different pace. I think
it's a very luxurious'place t o l i v e , but i t takes time f o r
people t o l i v e with each other, and not pass by so f a s t you
can't see each other. You have t o determine t h a t maybe you
won't achieve a s much here i n terms of your career a s you
might i n other centers--particularly i n the world of a r t , I
suppose.
Riess : Well, t h a t ' s only measured by t h e New York measurements.
C a l l i s t e r : Oh, and Los Angeles measurements.
And t h i s would be t r u e of a l l the a r t s . Actually I
think some people look a t the a r c h i t e c t s t h a t a r e i n t h i s
area a s being rather folksy, rather than i n t h e realm of the
avant-garde. I think t h a t ' s still true.
Riess : I n the f i f t i e s and s i x t i e s there was t h a t t e r r i f i c struggle
over high-rises. Was t h a t an e f f o r t t o go big-time, also? ,
C a l l i s t e r : Well, the economic p o t e n t i a l of the place was great, mainly
because of people wanting t o l i v e here. That was one of the
persuasions. So headquarters were established here f o r many
industries and many commercial ventures, because people
couldn't think of a b e t t e r place t o l i v e . And particularly
f o r the people who wanted t o have t h i s more reposeful place.
I mean, i f they wanted t h e more dynamic thing, they certainly
didn't s t a y here. They would go t o New York. O r even Boston,
or even Philadelphia, o r Washington. A l l those places had
a dynamic sense. Even i n the manner and way people drive.
[laughter]
Christian Science Church, Belvedere
Getting the Commission
Riess: How did you get the commission f o r t h a t f i r s t Christian
Science church?
C a l l i s t e r : Well, m
y family and I went t o a Christian Science church, and
so we did have some contacts, j u s t by being a member--but
not of t h a t church; we were members of the M i l l Valley church.
Actually i t happened a t the foot of the old Sun Yat Sen
s t a t u e i n St. Mary's Square. That used t o be a beautiful
place, before they put the garage under it. And it was a
very lovely sloping l i t t l e knoll. The Rudolph Schaeffer
School of Design was r i g h t a t the foot of t h a t knoll. .There
was a l i t t l e a l l e e t h a t went through there. It was a very
popular lunching place. I bring t h i s up because i t was
actually through j u s t sheer accident t h a t the chairman of
the Belvedere church's building committee w a s having lunch
next t o where I happened t o be s i t t i n g . I don't know whether
they intended t o get i n touch anyway. I find many commissions
come by accident.
Riess : That probably could only happen i n
l i k e t h i s , then.
a community t h a t ' s paced
C a l l i s t e r : I think so, too. And s o he said, "
W
e a r e going t o build a
church i n Belvedere. Why don't you come over and l e t us t a l k
t o you about it.'' I think they'd talked t o others, too. I ' m
not sure.
C a l l i s t e r : It was a very small group, l e s s than a hundred, and they had
a log cabin a s t h e i r church here on Belvedere. I n f a c t , the
log cabin was j u s t l o s t l a s t year. It was the oldest building
i n Belvedere, a t r u e log cabin. And i t j u s t s l i d down the
h i l l . That was too bad. That l i t t l e log cabin had a l o t of
romance t o i t f o r the people who were then members of the
church. It had a fireplace i n i t , it had skylights, it had
a l l the things t h a t the new church f i n a l l y had, i n a sense.
Riess: Was t h a t an older congregation? I ' m curious.
C a l l i s t e r : No, t h a t was a young congregation, mostly. They were made up
of people, many of them, who were from out of town. Then
there was a basic group t h a t had been here a long time. Harry
and Winifred Allen, who developed Seacliff and much of
Belvedere, they were members of t h e church. They actually
gave the land f o r the church. Winifred Allen was a very won-
d e r f u l person. She was a landscape architect and she had a l s o
studied architecture. She was most i n f l u e n t i a l i n doing the
landscaping.
Riess : Yes, I wondered about t h a t s i t e .
C a l l i s t e r : It's a t r i a n g l e , and they had thought of the entrance being
on the other end, r i g h t across from the City Hall. City Hall
is an old church t h a t they moved down t h e . h i l 1 and b u i l t it
i n t o the City Hall. It was the old Episcopal church, a s I
r e c a l l .
And then there was another connection there, too. M
y
wife went t o school with Harry and Winifred Allen's daughter-
in-law. So there was a connection there, I suppose, too, t h a t
made i t possible t o become t h e i r architect.
Craftsmen, Then and Now
C a l l i s t e r : Anyway, t h e old log cabin had a great influence an m
y design.
That was nice, t o find r e a l history, and t o find an existing
mood t o work with, such a s t h e fireplace, and such as the sky-
lights. It was very moody and dark, i n a sense, and very
Japanesque. I suppose t h i s was t r u e of e a r l y Berkeley, Bay
Area s o r t of architecture, which of course w a s very brown
then. [laughs]
Riess : Did the building committee r e f e r back t o the Maybeck i n
Berkeley?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Oh yes, yesr the Maybeck church, of course, i n Berkeley is a
very, very great building, the Christian Science church i n
Berkeley. Both Gutterson and Maybeck did j u s t wonderful
architecture i n t h i s church; Gutterson more o r l e s s , I gather,
did the Sunday School addition.
Riess: 	 Was t h a t an expensive church t o do? What kind of a budget
was involved?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 No, it was not--it was expensive, I suppose a t the time. W
e
had a wonderful man who was the superintendent, a M r . Black.
He was a Scotsman. He was the old-fashioned type of super-
intendent who knew a l l the trades. Today we have contractors
and superintendents who have no idea what the other trades
a r e about, o r what they're doing. He could follow through
with everybody, and nothing was impossible t o him.
Well, I have recently run i n t o one builder l i k e t h i s ,
actually two, on our A l l Saints Church project i n Pasadena.
In f a c t , f o r these two men--the A l l Saints project was the l a s t
t h a t they did before they r e t i r e d . But there was a capability
i n those early people who perceived t h a t they could do any-
thing. And today there's a diffidence, almost, about building
t h a t ' s much d i f f e r e n t . You have t o work with uncertain quality
and uncertain concern and a l l t h a t s o r t of thing. You never
know--now, t h i s is a generalization. I ' m j u s t saying i n
broad terms, because t h a t ' s not always t r u e , even today.
Specialization has come i n t o where the e l e c t r i c i a n does
the e l e c t r i c a l and t h e plumber does the plumbing. The co-
ordination of them has become more complicated. I know we
did Haviland Hall a t the University of California--Jack Payne
and myself-we did t h e remodelling of it. The original
number of sheets f o r the whole building was twenty-three.
J u s t i n remodelling we did eighty-four! You grasp the sense
of the differences of the technical s i d e of building.
Then also, t h e realm 'of t h a t time, in the 1920's when
Haviland Hall was done--this was true of the A l l Saints Church
i n Pasadena, which was a l s o done in the 1920's--people i n the
trades had a follow through. Well, I have a famous example,
because Maybeck would show i n h i s drawing an ornamented newel
post of a s t a i r way. And he would then put a l i t t l e note on
the drawing t h a t said, "Make the bosses on t h e c e i l i n g i n
harmony." Well, now, i f I wrote t h a t on a drawing today,
they wouldn't know what t o do. But you see, they i n t h e . p a s t
knew. They had a sense of t h e i r c r a f t and i f it's a carved
newel, they could carve a boss t o r e l a t e t o i t . You know
what a boss i s ? Are you an a r c h i t e c t ?
Riess : No, but I've studied it a b i t .
C a l l i s t e r : The ornament would be s t a r t e d from the drawings o r suggested,
and then the architect would leave it up t o the wood carver
t o continue the ornament a f t e r it had been suggested. A l l
of the trades were given a larger hand than they a r e today.
They don't do t h a t s o r t of thing today.
Riess: Yes. Well, they were craftsmen then, back i n the days when
you t a l k about a r t s and c r a f t s .
C a l l i s t e r : Artisans and a r t s and crafts--more than today. Today they're
mechanics, and then they were a r t i s a n s , I think. There's
-
artfulness i n t h e i r processes. I j u s t spent a couple of months
i n Europe, and t h i s was t r u e through t h e whole of past archi-
t e c t u r a l history. Everything craftsmen touched was an expres-
sion of a r t , expression of love, expression of a l l these
things i n t h e i r work. When you see t h i s process, it's j u s t
mind-boggling i n the r e s u l t s . What we're seeing today of the
history t h a t post modem a r c h i t e c t s a r e trying t o r e s t a t e i s
r e a l l y a caricature of what was carefully thought of and
innately expressed i n the past. Look a t a Romanesque capital--
i t ' s j u s t beautifully carved. Each one different, each one
with great expression. There must have been a fervor f o r
t h e i r r e l i g i o n expressed i n the a r t of the artisan.
N
o
w we have s p e c i a l i s t s who a r e called i n t o do the
stained glass, o r t o do the mosaics--it's s o r t of separate
now, they didn't seem t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n the same way.
(Although t h e stained glass i s probably an exception.)
Riess: The stained glass is an exception, you think?
C a l l i s t e r : Well, I think it s o r t of established i t s e l f as a unique a r t
and c r a f t and a very special s o r t of thing. I think t h a t
a r c h i t e c t s today a r e recognizing it a s such, and a r e again
calling these new artisans. Although I don't think of very
many stonecarvers a s being available a t a l l . Woodcarvers,
i n f a c t , a r e a l s o very rare. And so many of those h i s t o r i c
c r a f t s a r e gone.
I n t h e Unitarian Church I know t h a t Jack Payne and Martin
Rosse and myself didn't necessarily f e e l t h a t there should be
stained g l a s s or leaded glass--which there now is--in t h e
l i t t l e chapel. W
e a l l were thinking of great rope weavings
hanging down the wall. But we couldn't find such a r t o r
c r a f t a t t h a t time. N
o
w there a r e several artists who do
rope weavings, but a t t h a t time, no. But we wanted t h a t
C a l l i s t e r : crudeness, and t h a t heaviness, and t h a t rusticness. W
e didn't
want a refined tapestry. Well, it would have been . possible
within the budget t o be able t o do i t . . But the committee
decided they wanted t o have stained glass.
I remember Martin and Jack and myself--we went t o so many
meetings where they were trying t o s e l e c t the a r t i s t t h a t
f i n a l l y we couldn't stand the meetings any longer. W
e stopped
going. And they f i n a l l y did the stained glass without ever
consulting us. It s o r t of got out of our hands because of the
enthusiasm of the chairman of the committee f o r stained glass.
And it was not anyone's f a u l t , f o r we couldn't find t h e
a r t i s t who would do the kind of thing t h a t we envisioned f o r
the chapel.
Riess : Where was Mark Adams then?
C a l l i s t e r : Mark Adams was around, but h i s things were more refined than
we wanted. I think h i s things a r e very beautiful--have you
seen t h e museum exhibit, j u s t recently, the Collectibles Show
a t the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art? There a r e some
Mark Adams drawings. M
y goodness, they ' r e stunning.
Mark Adams was available. W
e looked a t a l l kinds of
approaches and artists--but the glass was a committee decision.
I found i n my experience i n working with churches t h a t you do
work with committees. That's a whole f i e l d i n i t s e l f . Dif-
ferent churches have d i f f e r e n t kinds of committees and bring
about unique r e s u l t s i n t o the architecture.
Participation i n t h e Design
Riess: Did the Christian S c i e n t i s t s give you the design program? You
always do have the f i r s t and second reader i n the back and
then the choir loft--was there any f l e x i b i l i t y i n that? They
were doing a new church--did they say, "Let's t r y something a
l i t t l e b i t different?"
C a l l i s t e r : I n the Belvedere church I put the architecture together with
a sense of the people. And there were a r t f u l people on t h a t
committee--Joe Wallace, who is an a r t i s t , and Pat Cumrmings,
who had the Cummings Stained Glass Studios. Winif red ~ l l ' e n ,
Harry Allen.
Riess: You had a very enlightened committee.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Oh, one of t h e most b r i l l i a n t I think I ' v e ever had. No, not
r e a l l y , no, I can't say t h a t . They're different. No, t h a t
group was j u s t splendid. Then there were others I have t o
r e c a l l who were equally great.
Riess : 	 But they wanted t o do something new?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 They wanted t o do something t h a t would be exciting and different.
One of the requirements t h a t they put d o n was t h a t they wanted
a fireplace, f o r they had had a fireplace. They wanted a sky-
l i g h t , f o r they had had a skylight. I don't know whether I
should t e l l the story here o r not, but the skylights were
i n t e r e s t i n g because about t h a t time of building the new church,
Sally Stanford bought the house next door t o the log cabin
church, and painted i t a bright color t h a t reflected i n t o the
church. It was a purple s o r t of shade, and so everyone was
upset, and they actually persuaded Harry Allen t o buy t h e
house back so t h a t i t could be repainted. For she had bought
the house -
not as Sally Stanford, which was her business name!
[laughter]
And the steeple--that was another thing. They a l l wanted
a steeple. And b e l l s , which have never materialized. You
can s t i l l see the brackets up there on t h e steeple f o r b e l l s
which have never come! Winifred Allen wanted t h e b e l l s i n
memory of her mother, but t h e p r i c e of b e l l s kept going up, so
we never got the b e l l s . I don't think we ever w i l l .
The b e l l out here i n f r o n t of the o f f i c e has some rami-
f i c a t i o n s out of the proposed church b e l l s . David Allen and
Betty Allen and Mary Lang, a whole group of us, were trying t o
do b e l l s f o r Belvedere out i n t h e harbor, since we couldn't
do them on the church--for it would disturb the neighbors.
Bells i n the harbor would disturb more neighbors. So I've
ended up with a sample b e l l !
Riess : 	 It would be nice t o have i n the harbor.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 It would, and we had thought of maybe three b e l l s t h a t would
simply not play anything, but simply be tones. They would
play occasionally, but not a l l the time. Everyone i s s o afraid
t h a t someone is going t o play "Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer''
o r a school song. Only three b e l l s were planned--you have t o
have three b e l l s t o even have a peal of any kind.
So the b e l l s never arrived a t the church. The descrip-
t i o n was t h a t t h e b e l l s would be wonderful, and there would
be a b e l l ringing rope hanging i n the foyer. Much of t h i s
was Winifred Allen's dream, a s well a s the fireplace.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 The congregation is small--the church only s e a t s 96 people.
I was familiar with the services and so forth; I have been
i n Christian Science most of m
y l i f e . Due t o the triangular
shape of the site--the church is v i r t u a l l y on t h e setback,
two f e e t from the setback of the two streets--I turned t h e
entry around, which was the only thing you could do, actually.
They had seen i t the other way, with the entry a t t h e s t r e e t
intersection.
1'11 have t o show you the pictures of t h e model, and the
s l i d e s , and some of the construction. It would be interesting.
Riess : 	 I ' d l i k e t o s e e that. I n other religions a t t h a t time, there
was an i n t e r e s t i n a more participatory service. That I
can't imagine with Christian Scientists.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Well, Wednesday evening service is emphasized here. A s you'll
see, the inside of the church, the form of it, is t h a t the
s e a t s a r e a t an angle, facing each other, you see. That
thought came from t h e ease with which you could stand and face
the congregation.
Then too, there's t h a t thought of unity i n Christian
Science--the sense of the church. I t ' s not from the pulpit,
i t ' s actually from the congregation. I suppose t h a t a
s p i r i t u a l sense of participation expresses i t s e l f i n the
form of a r c h i t e c t o r a l emphasis. I n t h e Maybeck church
there's a l s o an enveloping sense i n the design. I think
t h a t t h e whole d e f i n i t i o n of church is within t h a t sense.
I f e l t that.
Also i t seemed a s though the triangular prow-like form
related t o t h e aspect of the boats i n the nearby harbor with
t h e i r masts, r e l a t e s t o the steeple. It's a ship, i f you
wish, it's a f i s h , i f you wish, i n plan, which i s an early
symbol of Christianity.
Riess: 	 The experience of working with t h a t group and t h a t committee
sounds l i k e i t was f a i r l y inspired.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Oh, it was very inspiring. I n f a c t , i t was a very, very
exciting group t o work with.
Pat Cummings l a t e r was chairman of the building committee.
He had stained glass studios, and, of course, he did wonderful
stained glass. H i s son now c a r r i e s on h i s business. Of
course, Pat said, "Just because I have stained glass studios
you needn't f e e l that you have t o use stained glass." I think
C a l l i s t e r : 	 my comment t o him was, "You'd be crazy i f you think I don't
want t o use stained glass! " Actually the leaded g l a s s was
p r e t t y interesting. I learned a l o t about stained o r leaded
glass from Pat a t t h a t time. Pat was a very wonderful man
and a very inspired person.
The committee, Pat Cummings and several colleagues
were involved i n t h a t project. Joe Montgomery, and Lois
Davidson Gottlieb were involved a t the t i m e of designing
the church, a s well a s Alan Tanaguchi, who l a t e r became
Dean of Architecture a t the University of Texas, and Rice
University.
Riess: 	 You had such a full-fledged o f f i c e then?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 No, not r e a l l y , t h i s was s o r t of a shared enterprise a s f a r
a s s a l a r i e s were concerned. It was a great devotion t o
architecture by a l l of us.
Which r e a l l y comes t o another point about the log cabin
I remember. I had a convertible c a r t h a t had a top t h a t I
couldn't put up because it w a s s o shattered, i n such shreds.
So I remember t h a t I took a model i n t o t h e church t o show t o
them, a t a committee meeting. While I w a s i n there i t
s t a r t e d pouring rain. I remember I had my only s u i t on, too.
[laughter] After t h e meeting m
y problem was, "How w i l l I get
t o the c a r and take off m
y s u i t and put it i n the trunk and
drive away before they come out and before they can see me
i n m
y underwear?!"
Riess : 	 In t a t t e r s !
C a l l i s t e r : 	 So I j u s t made it, I j u s t pulled away as I could see them
coming out of t h e front--in m
y underwear!
This was during the Korean War, too; we couldn't use
hardly any s t e e l reinforcing, particularly. So this was
another influence on the design of t h a t church. Arnold Olette
and Gus [August E.] Waegemann were t h e s t r u c t u r a l engineers.
Olette did some very beginning work on it, but Gus Waegemann
r e a l l y was the one who carried it further. I guess they both
are included, certainly. But the heaviness of those p i e r s
is mainly because we couldn't use much reinforcing steel.
Well, not altogether, but we were a l l o t t e d so many pounds,
and you had t o use i t sparingly. No copper. Mr. Black,
the job superintendant, w a s very capable of handling the
concrete form work, which was very w e l l done. The s t e e p l e
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess:
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess:
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess:
is a stressed concrete steeple--it's only two inches square
a t the top. This was quite a f e a t , because the 80' s p i r e
has only a single rod i n the center within t h e 2' square
section a t the upper p a r t of the spire, which was then post
tensioned.
It w a s very interesting. While the steeple was on the
ground, t h e church looked not too interesting. Then the
derrick came and l i f t e d the steeple--an event, f o r there w a s
q u i t e a crowd of people. And i t suddenly gave excitement t o
the whole building. I n f a c t , people stood there and
applauded when it arrived i n place, because i t was j u s t like--
well, i t was l i k e a ship without a mast, you know how strange
they look? They look l i k e rowboats. It was very exciting.
So you were doing some innovative design there.
I n t h e steeple, and i n t h e heating system. W
e had originally
hoped t o have radiant heating of copper c o i l s . Again because
of the war--. W e did use a forced-air radiant heating,
actually through closely spaced channels i n t h e concrete
floors, forced a i r was circulated t o slits alongside the
base of the exterior w a l l s . It worked out very well, with
the forced-air radiant heating.
How about the landscaping? Who did that?
Winifred Allen and myself and a committee did the landscaping.
Winifred was such a f i n e person f o r finding things. W
e picked
special rocks and she had the people who knew how t o haul the
rocks. Unfortunately somebody, l a t e l y , has planted the wrong
scaled ivy, overgrowing a l l of the Hahn's ivy, which was very
small i n scale.
P r a c t i c a l l y hides t h e name of t h e church.
It hides everything. It's unfortunate. To get r i d of it
now is impossible. You'd have t o take everything out and
s t a r t over, which w e might do sometime. To have put the
wrong ivy in--that was somebody being too helpful.
There have been members who wanted t o paint the church
white, too.
Oh, t h a t ' s interesting.
They always thought of Christian Science churches a s white.
Have there been any changes, really?
C a l l i s t e r :
R i e s s :
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
R i e s s :
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess:
C a l l i s t e r :
W
e j u s t made the addition t o it, which cost a s much a s the
o r i g i c a l church. Two 14 x 14 Sunday school rooms and a bath-
room.
Was there some excitement i n t h e architectural community about
the church?
O
h yes, it was p r e t t y well known. I n f a c t , I think t h a t it
was liked and disliked. Most,people liked it, I think.
Did it become a magazine piece?
Yes, it was published. And then Morley Baer took some very
f i n e pictures of it. Several photographers did, in f a c t .
Has it been copied?
Well, sure. But i t ' s not t h a t o r i g i n a l a shape, I suppose.
Copying t o m e is incidental. I don't find t h a t there's
o r i g i n a l i t y i n t h a t sense i n architecture. You do the appro-
p r i a t e thing, and sometimes i t ' s similar. Some things a r e
copied, but I don't think per s e t h a t i t was copied.
What s t r i k e s me is t h a t it's a combination of being very
small and very r i c h a t the same time. Usually small means
simple. It doesn't look simple from the outside.
Well, i t ' s not. It has its complexities. The shapes and
forms and so f o r t h a r e some e a r l y ideas I had. I f you notice,
a l l the horizontal muntins o r leaded divisions i n the glass
a l l go t o single vanishing points, which a r e t h e same vanish-
ing points of the s t r u c t u r a l elements of the church proper.
Having a l l of the l i n e s of the church radiating from the
vanishing points gives the building an inherent sense of
upward movement. Although there's one t e r r i b l e mistake i n
the two i n t e r i o r screens on e i t h e r side of the entry, t h a t
do not follow the radiating l i n e s . I see i t - e v e r y time I
v i s i t the church, but I don't think anyone e l s e sees it; of
course I know it's not i n harmony with the rest of it.
[laughs]
Then, t h i s design device is t r u e of the Readers' desk,
i t ' s t r u e of the organ screen, e t cetera. A l l those elements
a r e vanishing points. Which I think gives a c e r t a i n dynamic
t o the design. But maybe i t ' s rather amateurish too i n
another sense.
The M i l l Valley Christian Science Church, and the
Idea of Architecture a s Process
R i e s s : Let's move on t o the next church, which was the Christian
Science church i n M i l l Valley. That church i s very d i f f e r e n t l y
s i t e d .
C a l l i s t e r : Actually, there was probably a s much reason t o do t h a t i n a
redwood manner as i t was so with the Belvedere church, i n a
way. W
e found t h i s open h i l l s i d e site, and i t was actually
a f a i r l y large s i t e , r i g h t a t t h e edge of town.
It was a very barren s i t e . There was nothing. Now the
t r e e s a r e growing and s o forth. I suppose the church members
envisioned a church i n the redwoods, and l a t e r we planted the
redwoods. It was a gully, i n fact. So' we reshaped i t t o
create a s i t e on t h e sloping land. The property was a portion
of a larger piece t h a t was about t o be developed, so the
developer had arranged t h a t we could buy a piece.
Being q u i t e familiar with the northern coast here of
California-
R i e s s : Fort Ross--
C a l l i s t e r : Yes, Fort Ross, and Tomales, and, of course, Mendocino, and
the whole area where a much d i f f e r e n t kind of architecture
can be found than i n the Bay Area. And there's a mood i n
t h a t coastal architecture t h a t ' s q u i t e interesting, because
it i s New England, i n a sense, coming around from New England,
with its carpenter architecture, s o t h a t seemed appropriate
t o think about f o r t h e M i l l Valley church.
Riess : W
a
s the feeling i n the church different?
was.
It sounds l i k e i t
C a l l i s t e r : Yes, I think so, although I think i t was probably disappoint-
ing t o some people i n not being so much i n t h e very l o c a l
redwood s t y l e . [gets scrapbook] It is a shingle building
with very white t r i m and formal white i n t e r i o r s , much dif-
ferent compared t o the Belvedere church, and so i t ' s a
d i f f e r e n t statement i n t h a t sense.
This beautiful l i g h t i n g f i x t u r e was done by actually
some of the 1960 so-called hippie c r a f t s people. Very
beautifully done. Handsomely done.
Walter Meinberger was t h e contractor.
Riess : I see it has another handsome steeple.
C a l l i s t e r : Yes, it has a steeple. I think t h a t the form r e a l l y generated
i t s e l f from the past out of the early northern coast churches,
which 1'11 show you. Jack Payne and myself were very much
involved and interested i n t h i s regionalism. Others, too, but
mostly Jack and myself were personally involved.
Riess : What do you mean "personally"?
C a l l i s t e r : W e l l , a l l architecture i s done by a
. number of people. It's
never any one person singularly doing it, without including
t h e building committee and t h e builder and everyone e l s e who
has an influence on t h e accomplishment of a project. I look
a t architecture as more of a s o c i a l art than I do an
individualized expression. You j u s t can't find through
architecture an i n d i v i d u a l i s t i c accomplishment, t h e r e ' s no
way. You're immediately given a program from outside your
own persuasions by a c l i e n t , as an example. I n t h i s exhibit
t h a t ' s coming up f o r t h e San Francisco A r t Commission, I
indicate i t ' s more l i k e filmmaking. You c a n ' t say t h a t
there's one creator of a cinematic film. There's a whole
group of people, from t h e cameramen t o t h e actors t o the
storywriting, t o t h e whole thing. This is t r u e i n theater,
i t ' s t r u e i n opera, i t ' s t r u e i n a l l these arts which are
participatory a r t s of a kind. So they're d i f f e r e n t than the
a r t of a painter, sculptor, o r w r i t e r , e t cetera.
Riess : Would the most successful thing have the strongest single
design control?
C a l l i s t e r : I don't think so. Not i n m
y experience i n architecture.
Riess : How about Frank Lloyd Wright?
C a l l i s t e r : W e l l , Frank Lloyd Wright exaggerated t h e s i t u a t i o n of what
he did. He said he did everything. But you only had t o know
t h a t t h e r e ' s j u s t not t h a t time i n . t h e day t o do everything.
There's j u s t not. He was exploitive i n a sense. I t r i e d
not t o be exploitive i n t h a t possessive sense--I've always
f e l t t h a t I shared the accomplishment with others, and I give
t h a t great importance. I find that the doing i s more impor-
t a n t than the r e s u l t , sometimes, much more important.
I'll show you our o f f i c e i n a minute--this place i s so
enjoyable a s an environment t o work i n , i t i s a s o c i a l event.
I find t h a t architecture i s the sharing. For instance, a s
I said Jack Payne was very much involved with t h i s . He and I
Callister: would work very closely together. He did a l o t of designing
and the drawing and so f o r t h on the M i l l Valley church, the
Mill's College chapel. And a s I've mentioned, Montgomery
andDavidsonin the Belvedere Christian Science church over
here, as well a s Alan Tanaguchi and I were a l l involved i n
t h a t project. In the M i l l Valley church project Jack took a
special i n t e r e s t i n i t ' s regional motif. I did, too. So we
were both involved very heavily i n west coast regionalism.
Riess : Things l i k e the seats, the rugs, the carpets, the pews, were
they decided upon i n the early stages of talking about the
building?
Callister: Well, they often are, although a t the time, I know i n both
churches, we worked with i n t e r i o r designers. As an example,
i n the Christian Science church i n Belvedere, Francis
Mihailoff, the i n t e r i o r designer, decided it would be nice
i f we would match the velours on the pew cushions with the
stained glass. That was her contribution and it greatly
added t o the architecture.
Committees, Details, Decisions
Riess : 	 Was there any expectation that because you were then a
Christian Scientist t h a t it would be done for less, or non-
p r o f i t , o r , you know, free, o r anything?
Callister: 	 No, no--I have been asked by other congregations, none t h a t
I've ever done work with, t o do it f o r l e s s fee. Roman
Catholic clergy particularly sometimes expect you t o be very
economical i n design e f f o r t s , and t o minimize the fee. A t
l e a s t , i t was t r u e i n the East Bay a t one t i m e .
Riess : 	 Were there any individual donors who wanted any particular
thing done that you had t o deal with?
Callister: 	 Often there are, but i n Christian Science I know t h a t it's
more or l e s s metaphysicallythought through. They t r y not
t o allow personality t o prevail. It was particulaarly true
i n the San Francisco Unitarian church, where almost an
absolute consensus had t o be agreed upon before anything
was done. The Episcopal church i n Pasadena was a l s o a very
consensual s o r t of thing. You almost didn't move u n t i l
everybody had resolved t h e i r thought about i t a s t o how they
wanted i t , what would be emphas'ized.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 I think t h a t t h i s process i s p a r t of committee work, and
committee work can be very time consuming. Well, d i f f e r e n t
churches have d i f f e r e n t kinds of meetings. I ' d often caution
my students--when I was teaching a t Stanford--or cautioned
my colleagues, t h a t i f we ever did churches, why, you allow
j u s t s o many committee meetings within the fee, and then
a f t e r t h a t you charge by the hour, which may cut down the
number of meetings. And actually i n the church f o r M i l l
Valley, I think there were seventy meetings. Of course, I
was with the church, and so I guess I couldn't q u i t e count
a l l those meetings. But they paid t h e fee. They didn't ask
t o not pay the fee. The Episcopal church i n Pasadena, why,
i t went t o 114 meetings and I hadn't put t h a t clause i n the
contract ! [laughter]
In the Unitarian church they smoked. This was during
t h a t time when smoking was quite popular. I couldn't stand
the meetings--it drove me out of my mind. I remember asking
the mechanical engineers t o enlarge a l l the duct work t o take
care of t h e smoking meetings, which they did; a l o t of the
meetings a r e f i l l e d with smoke, even today.
Riess : 	 Do you think t h a t the meetings were necessary?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Oh yes, I found the meetings t o be very helpful. And I don't
t r y t o prevail with j u s t my ideas on things; I t r y t o l i s t e n ,
and maybe suggest, and then hear response. Then there's more
o r less an interplay i n developing an idea. The people who
contribute--you j u s t don't know where i t ' s going t o come from.
Good ideas, and great things, inspired ideas. I think I 'd
rather l i s t e n t o a l l of t h i s , and p r e f e r to, rather than say,
'Vell, i t ' s going t o be l i k e this."
Riess: 	 Well, I think there's a l o t of expectation of that. M
y own
i n s t i n c t would be t o be very d e f e r e n t i a l t o the a r c h i t e c t ;
once I ' d bought h i s services, I would leave him alone.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Well, I r e a l l y look f o r concepts from the c l i e n t . I n f a c t I
ask, f o r everybody on a building committee t o put i n t h e i r
ideas. I do t h i s even f o r a residence. Particularly when
it's f o r an individual c l i e n t .
When we're doing development work, you're s o r t of
imagining the market. When you have a client--I t r y t o
respond and do appropriately f o r the c l i e n t , not f o r my own
thinking. I wouldn't have done the Pueblo architectural
approach i n the Cibola project t h e way i t now is, except
the c l i e n t wanted it i n t h a t mood. And i t was i n t e r e s t i n g
C a l l i s t e r : t o suddenly have t o do it i n t h a t manner. This was i n Arizona,
a resort. The c l i e n t had a dream, and t h i s was the dream
t h a t they had. Both of them, a man and wife, and they wanted
it very sincerely. It was not superficial.
I think t h a t when you go t o a church group, why, you
often find t h a t there a r e factions, and there is always some-
body i n the Christian Science church who w i l l stand up and
who w i l l say, "Let's not pursue t h i s too hastily," even a f t e r
you've gone t o meetings f o r maybe two years. [laughter]
Riess: Somebody who j u s t woke up!
C a l l i s t e r : "We musn't pursue t h i s too hastily." And t h a t ' s actually i n
a l l congregations, I find. A l l of a sudden people wake up,
as you say. And then, f o r instance i n the Unitarian church,
the money f o r t h a t church was a g i f t , a sizeable memorial
g i f t , which made it possible f o r the project t o commence at
that time. Then there was a very hard time f o r t h e church t o
r a i s e any f u r t h e r funds, o r t o get r e a l participation, because
everybody thought, "Well, t h a t fund is there; t h a t ' s it, and
we won't have t o do anything." That was too bad. I n f a c t ,
it s p l i t the church almost. I f money is given, then each
person sees how they're going t o spend it. Different groups
thought they would spend i t differently.
Riess : So you end up kind of mediating that?
C a l l i s t e r : An a r c h i t e c t mediates a l o t , a tremendous amount.
Mills College Chapel, Design i n the Round
C a l l i s t e r : Dr. [George] Hedley had written one of the f i r s t discourses on
the modern church-in-the-round. And so he f e l t t h a t this was
s i g n i f i c a n t t o achieve i n the sense of the l i t u r g y t h a t he
saw. H i s book--I don't know whether I have a copy of it here
or not--but anyway, he was a pioneer on these issues.
Riess : He was somebody a t Mills?
C a l l i s t e r : Yes, he was the chaplain, Dr. Hedley was.
Riess : M i l l s has a resident chaplain?
C a l l i s t e r : They had a resident chaplain. It's a famous Bay Area college
chapel because so many couples a r e married there! And so
t h a t was one of the uses f o r the.chape1, a s a marriage chapel.
They had an old one t h a t they gave up. I think the highway
took it away when it came through.
Dr. Hedley was Episcopalian, but they had a l l religions
t o accommodate a t M i l l s College, everything--Oriental
r e l i g i o n s a s well a s Christian, Jewish, e t cetera. The
chapel was a l s o a place f o r t h e Holtkamp Organ, which i s
important a s an instrument, which the music department uses.
Riess : Holtkamp?
C a l l i s t e r : Holtkamp's a famous organ builder; he did the one a t the
University of California i n Hertz Hall.
Riess : You worked with a committee there?
C a l l i s t e r : There was a committee and then there was the president of
the college, and then t h e r e was a business manager, a r e a l l y
d i f f i c u l t man t o work with. W
e f i n a l l y hired two acoustical
engineers who disagreed with each other. [laughter] It
turned out f i n e acoustically, but i t ' s very interesting-
t h i s has been t r u e i n other projects we've had--acoustical
engineers a r e very subjective, I think, a s t o what they hear.
You almost have t o ask them what they l i k e i n the manner of
sound, and then you begin t o find out what t h e i r acoustics
a r e r e a l l y l i k e . Some hear i n d i f f e r e n t ways, or think you
want something i n d i f f e r e n t ways, so one must choose an
appropriate consultant.
Riess : For such a small building you would need
engineer?
an acoustical
C a l l i s t e r : Oh, yes. Very much so, because music i s important, and voice.
It's not amplified; none of our churches have amplification.
I n the A l l Saints Church, we have what we c a l l a Forum Room.
They i n s i s t e d upon t h e amplification there. It's not
necessary; the room i s f i n e acoustically. They f e e l a s
though there a r e people who can't hear unless you amplify;
t h a t may be.
The c i r c u l a r M i l l s College chapel was q u i t e complicated.
I n f a c t , a model was b u i l t and taken t o Belgium by one of
my colleagues, P h i l Molton--I don't know i f you know P h i l
Molton, he's an architect and a photographer. H e took the
model t o Belgium where they submerged t h e model i n a tank--
C a l l i s t e r : 	 but I don't know j u s t how they handled that. The nature of
the liquid i n the tank allowed them t o t e s t the models
acoustically by making.electrica1 sparks which generate
v i s i b l e flourescent wave movement i n t h e liquid simulating
sound wave movement within the models.
The t e s t i n g determined the seventeen nodes or undulating
wall panels which encircle the chapel,. The i n t e r i o r treatment
of each panel was such t h a t the room could be tuned l a t e r .
But there was never any need; it was very f i n e from the very
beginning.
A round form is very, very d i f f i c u l t . One of the most
d i f f i c u l t forms. Have you even been i n an empty water tank
or anything round l i k e t h a t ? I f you say anything, it comes
back t o you a thousand times. I f you say "Hello," y o u ' l l
hear, "Hello, hello, hello, hello," j u s t going on and on
and on.
-
Riess : 	 So your design preference would have been f o r a completely
round form, but once they determined the nodes, i t didn't
make any difference t o you how many?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Well, we s o r t of worked i t out together. The t e s t i n g a l s o
indicated t h a t the conical or truncated form seemed b e t t e r
acoustically. Also, the conical form works b e t t e r r e l a t i v e
t o the engineering of t h e tension rings, and so forth. It
gave a b e t t e r s t r u c t u r a l strength t o the building by s l i g h t l y
canting i t in. So there's a combination of things. Actually,
I learned t h e importance acoustically of t h e truncating.
M i l l s College chapel was being done at about the same
time that the Christian Science church over here w a s being
done, i n M i l l Valley. So t h e r e the truncated shape we learned
was very helpful--probably the i d e a l form f o r a church, f o r
there are no p a r a l l e l w a l l s , which is helpful f o r good
acoustical characteristics.
The church over here r e a l l y has s i x sides, so t o speak.
It's e s s e n t i a l l y more five-sided, which a l s o was an a s s i s t
i n t h e acoustics.
But anyway, those a r e determining f a c t o r s i n a church
as t o how it sounds, and what the acoustics are. I n a round
church it's very, very d i f f i c u l t . That was a r e a l problem
from t h e beginning i n t h e chapel as t o what could we do. The
only point i n t h e chapel t h a t you hear any reverberation of
sounds is d i r e c t l y over. the a l t a r s t o n e i n the middle of t h e
c i r c u l a r space.
Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
' Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
R i e s s :
C a l l i s t e r :
Riess :
C a l l i s t e r :
The altar stone?
Yes, i t ' s a stone.
Whose concept w a s t h a t , having an altar stone?
It's a f l a t granite stone i n t h e shape of a cross; i t ' s a
cruciform. I n some services they cover i t up when i t is not
appropriate. They may put a t a b l e over the stone f o r what-
ever the need may be.
Stone seems t o m
e t o have suggestions of primitive s a c r i f i c e .
I think i t was partly my feeling about the c e n t r a l altar.
W
e t r i e d t o go back t o some of the early primitive symbols
j u s t i n some connotations. Another example is the church
i n Belvedere. It's q u i t e primitive i n the forms and
symmetries of t h e structure. I t ' s - q u i t e symbolic, very
early Christian, which I think i s very interesting. I f you
go t o the early churches i n I t a l y , they're often very much
b e t t e r than the l a t e r ones. Very simple, very profound i n
t h e i r statement. There a r e hardly any contradictions. I
f e e l t h a t the a l t a r was something t h a t D r . Hedley a l s o had
much t o do with.
And t h e Shinto entrance t o i t was--
The narthex is perhaps more of a Shinto or Buddhist concept
of gateway, with the purification of thought a s one passes
through a gateway--a t r a d i t i o n i n Shintoism, which is a
very i n t e r e s t i n g thing. A whole t r a d i t i o n of Japanese and
Oriental architecture, p a r t i c u l a r l y Japanese, where passing
through t h e gate is a symbolic moment. Not t h a t i t p u r i f i e s
you, but you have some thought of changing your own thinking.
And a portal, say, is important even i n western civiliza-
t i o n a s a contemplative moment when entering a place of
worship.
I n Japan, i f you w i l l notice i n the t r a d i t i o n a l times,
they even bowed before they went through the doorway, and
then they bowed again when they passed through it. That
p o r t a l s o r t of idea goes with t h e i r t e a ceremony a s well.
A t r a n s i t i o n zone.
Transition of your thought. And when you go from room t o room,
you should change your thinking, not j u s t go through the door.
I suppose we always do t h a t , subconsciously. They do i t
ceremonially. So the chapel's narthex o r gate i s s o r t of
C a l l i s t e r : 	 similar. The chaplain's o f f i c e i s on one side and then
there's a classroom o r meeting room on the other side. There
a r e two t o i l e t s , a l l very minimal.
Riess: 	 Did they ask f o r such a space?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 No, that more or l e s s came from the s i t e . There was a l i t t l e
garden glen there a t the base of the slope where the students,
the g i r l s lunched often because it was pleasant, and so we
kept the glen. W
e put a mound on e i t h e r s i d e of the chapel
and made it exclusive from the entrance road and t h e t r a f f i c
sounds--it is s o r t of a contemplative r e t r e a t . The narthex
serves a s a gateway t o the chapel a s well a s t o the gardens.
I had a t t h a t time been t o Japan a couple of times, and
I was very impressed with the Japanese concepts, and t h e i r
h i s t o r i c buildings and gardens and t h e i r whole idea of archi-
tecture. When you got t o Ise, which is the number one Shinto
shrine, you go through a whole s e r i e s of gates instead of
s t a t i o n s of the cross, you go through a whole s e r i e s o f , so
t o speak, locales t h a t a r e defined often by the woods and the
gates and t h e bridges and so forth. Each one is a point of
contemplation, a d i f f e r e n t point of contemplation. So p a r t l y
the idea of the noon hour contemplative s o r t of place, with
music inside and so f o r t h was the concept a t M i l l s College.
I don't know t h a t i t ' s now used t h a t way even, everyone seemed
t o l i k e the idea very much.
N
o
w t h i s was i n the s i x t i e s , when t h i s project w a s done.
Concepts were beginning t o change a t the time, a t t i t u d e s
toward many things. W
e should r e a l i z e t h a t the mid-sixties
represented the beginning of the whole Haight-Ashbury and
f r e e speech movement. The whole process of architecture was
beginning t o change then a t t h a t point.
Riess : 	 And so you would because of t h a t decide t o give a kind of
neutrality t o a place?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 I suppose. I think t h a t a s much a s anything, even the respect
of d i f f e r e n t cultures and different concepts of religion was
beginning t o come in. The whole greening of America was also,
I guess, a greening of a sense of a t t i t u d e s , too. The whole
concept of relationships among people were.changing. It
didn't l a s t too long. I thought it was a very exciting time,
very dynamic, very tolerant.
I can remember one of the f i r s t services i n the church
was r i g h t a f t e r Martin Luther King was shot. I can remember
the feelings were very strong. M i l l s a t t h a t time r e a l l y
C a l l i s t e r : had very few minority students. A very great e f f o r t was then
made a t M i l l s t o have involvement of minorities. So the
Oriental and the Black students were then sought out, a s well
a s new ideas i n a l l f i e l d s of learning. You know t h a t period.
Riess : Did anyone say, "What is t h i s building going up f o r anyway?
W
e don't need a chapel here.'' Kind of picketing the concept
of a chapel.
C a l l i s t e r : Well, D r . Hedley was a very i n t e r e s t i n g and gregarious person
and had a l o t of influence. I think h i s point of view w a s
one of tolerance of such change. I mean, it w a s not heavy
r e l i g i o n i n any sense. I think he s e t a sense of unification
with the student concerns. I remember a p a r t i c u l a r meeting
i n the chapel with many of the women students there, t h e
faculty and so forth. It was a very, very exciting moment;
it was t h e beginning of t h e student protests.
I was also v i s i t i n g at Yale and I can remember when Reverend
[William Sloane] Coffin staged one of the f i r s t s i t - i n s i n
t h e i r chapel. A t t h a t time there was again a sense of unity,
I think, possibly with t h e help of the chaplains. And the
round church contributed t o t h a t prevailing feeling and t h e
student mood. There was an acceptance, almost, a togetherness.
Authority was changing then. The chapel was a gathering place.
Riess : I n a round church you're
to-shoulder.
face-to-face r a t h e r than shoulder-
C a l l i s t e r : Of course, i n history the forms of Christian churches
influenced the forms of our law courts. The jury could be
the choir, and t h e authority of t h e judge i s esteemed o r
alluded t o i n a pious way. The churches a r e turning around
away from absolutes. It almost i s time t h a t the l a w court
turned around, too, and stopped being the judge, so t o speak.
Maybe being more consensual.
Architecture Today, Searching f o r Meaning and Community
Callister: N
o
w I .think we've had a turning back on t h i s , a t t h i s moment,
a s you can see everywhere. Authority is expressing i t s e l f
more strongly, and t h a t ' s too bad. I think w e did have a
very exciting moment then, where we were exploring other ways.
I ' m disappoibted, really. I think i t w i l l come again, but
i t ' s almost becoming s u p e r f i c i a l now. A s I see architectural
design today, i t ' s almost "trends of styles" t h a t are not
C a l l i s t e r : 	 necessarily concerned nor t e r r i b l y profound. Even our design
of a new restaurant, I f e e l i t i s r e a l l y a s t y l i s h l a r k i n
a sense. Although I think a restaurant, o r commercial projects
l i k e t h a t , a r e pieces of temporary showmanship. It's only
going t o last a few years before they remodel it i n any event.
So i t ' s not t e r r i b l y long-lasting; its s t y l e i s fleeting.
M
y caution t o the students at Cal Poly recently was t o
maybe not bother with the persuasions of the s t y l e s t h a t a r e
actually put f o r t h by t h e j o u r n a l i s t s j u s t f o r e d i t o r i a l
reasons, i f nothing else. And even the journalists agree
with t h a t . I stopped i n New York and talked t o t h e Architec-
t u r a l Record and they're even reconsidering where they a r e
and how they stand r e l a t i v e t o the post-modernist thing.
Architectural journals, wherever we i n the design f i e l d are,
may be advocating what e l s e we might do i n design, and then
when we get there, why then they say, "What else?" again.
It seems almost endless i n order t o make a headline, I suppose.
It's hard t o w r i t e a headline unless you contradict t h e s t a t u s
quo !
Riess : 	 I went t o the post-modernist show a t Fort Mason, and a t the
back end of t h a t was a huge display of international archi-
tecture. And wordy!
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Oh, t e r r i b l y .
Riess : 	 It was l i k e the words didn't mean anything, because it was the
design of the words t h a t was more important than t h e words.
The words would j u s t go on and on and on and back and forth.
I was interested i n the idea, displayed i n front of me t h a t
architecture is such an a r t i c u l a t e business. O r rationalized,
o r something.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 And a very pretentious s o c i a l influence there, too. It has
t o meet a c e r t a i n fashionable mood of society and culture. It
has t o respond t o current trendiness, and t h a t is d i f f i c u l t
t o explain by way of words. I found t h a t show t h e a t r i c , but
very poor theatrics, i n many ways.
Riess : 	 But why is i t t h a t a r c h i t e c t s t a l k so much about what they're
doing, or is t h a t p a r t of being a good architect?
C a l l i s t e r : 	 They've asked me t o w r i t e a three or four-hundred word comment
i n t h i s current honor awards f o r the new a r t commission i n
San Francisco. And I'm finding myself writing explanations.
But when I read someone e l s e ' s explanations, I think it's
awful.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 There was recently a show of women i n a r t , painters and 

sculptors, a t the San Francisco Museum of Modern A r t and 

a l l of the women explained, too, what they were doing. I n 

f a c t , some of the things written were very fine, and I 

was enjoying i t v e r y much. I a l s o enjoyed and was amused by 

the long t e x t s t h a t people generate. 

One woman said, "Painting i s simply p a i n t on canvas."
I was s o g r a t e f u l f o r t h a t simplicity! [laughter] It was
j u s t l i k e a knife cutting through a l l t h i s other s t u f f . Yes,
I guess t h a t ' s what i t is. Architecture is probably "just
doing building" and r e a l l y is not i n need of a l l the explana-
tion. Some people have said t h a t we invent the explanation
a f t e r the f a c t .
I think t h a t I ' d take Minor White's advice. He was one
of the great photographers who died a few years ago. He photo-
graphed t h e f i r s t house t h a t Jack Hillmer and I did. He was
a marvellous man. Some of the photographs t h a t I have around
here a r e h i s . I took a summer course of h i s at the A r t
I n s t i t u t e i n San Francisco which he gave. He was a tremendous
teacher. He l a t e r had a chair a t MIT. H e was j u s t superb.
H i s kind of teaching was always interesting. He used t o
say t h a t you put your camera aside and then you "listen" f o r
the photograph. You don't look. And wow!--things l i k e this--
he j u s t had a l l kinds of thoughts l i k e t h a t , t h a t were
inspiring. Something I learned when I went t o the Orient,
too, is t h a t the doing i s more important than t h e end accom-
plishment. This is very Japanese, the ceremony of doing. And
t h i s is an influence i n doing our kind of environmental work;
the way we work--I think the doing i s the important thing.
"This i s t h e momentf1--right now, t h i s is a very nice moment.
"It's not going t o get better" kind of philosophy, you know.
Riess: 	 That makes it very individual.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 I think t h e r e ' s t h e i n t e r a c t i o n among a l l of u s who have had
t h i s going on a l l .the time. Out of t h i s comes an ambience,
I think, t h a t is very determining i n what we do. We're
probably forming our own l i v i n g community, i n a sense, here,
r i g h t i n t h i s l i t t l e community of architects.
I think, actually, t h i s is the mistake we've made i n
urban planning. We've made suburban housing, then we've made
urban places to.work. I ' m not so c e r t a i n t h a t the community
is where you live, your house; i t ' s actually where you work.
T h i s . i s a suburban community of work and living. You know,.
I l i v e next door, and others l i v e next door. W
e s o r t of have
C a l l i s t e r : 	 t h i s unique place; i t ' s a beautiful place. That i s the excite-
ment, I think. A s Jack Payne used t o say, he didn't know
whether he went home t o get away from work or whether he went
t o work t o get away from home! And I think there is t h i s
s p l i t t h a t we have of two places.
As I see it, i n t h i s architectural circumstance we have
made an i d e a l combination i n t h i s singular location. That's
the dominant thing i n t h i s place of doing architecture. The
schools, the kids, and a l l those other domestic things are
certainly important, a l l t h a t a c t i v i t y , but a l s o they're always
here. They're around here, i n and out, a l l the t i m e . So i t ' s
s o r t of a center.
I r e a l l y think t h a t t h i s is the form t h a t possibly things
w i l l take i n the future; a s w e decentralize because of our
electronic c a p a b i l i t i e s , I mean our communication emphasis,
I think we can depart from t h a t great centralization. My
great disappointment i s t h a t down here i n the old Tiburon
railroad yard they're trying t o put i n housing. They haven't
succeeded y e t , but they may. My feeling about t h a t i s t h a t
they should wait, because I think i t ' s a great place t o work.
A l l t h e people who l i v e around here and could work here, and
not have t o commute. Although it is a lovely commute by boat
and car--it's great. Nevertheless, I think we're going t o
see a reforming of the community. I j u s t don't know how t h i s
a f f e c t s the whole, such as churches, and a l l t h e i n s t i t u t i o n s ;
they may change again, too.
The Episcopal church project i n Pasadena was a good
experience, because they have a very large congregation there.
They do a great many things. It is a great community. It
i n i t s e l f is a community. So I think there a r e d i f f e r e n t
kinds of communities, and the churches can become that.
I sometimes f e e l t h a t the Christian Science church doesn't
always develop a strong community participation. Other
churches, l i k e t h e Unitarian, have a very strong sense of com-
munity. That's very, very nice. It's a lovely environment.
There a r e not very many churches being b u i l t r i g h t now,
a r e there? This i s a moment when things have cooled, in a way.
There was a great fervor.
Riess : 	 That's what we're finding, t h a t there w a s a great fervor.
And i n some instances, a great use of the a r t of t h e area,
and a sense of t h e a r t community t h a t would allow an a r c h i t e c t
t o c a l l on h i s neighbors t o produce t h e i r best things instead
.
of having t o go t o a catalogue t o order stained ,gl a s s...
C a l l i s t e r : Speaking of t h a t , I can remember going with the committee t o
s e l e c t church s e a t s one time. This i s an i n t e r e s t i n g thing
t h a t you might mention, and t h a t is that there a r e people who
make pews, who make church seats--which is a big business--
was, not now, I guess--but i t was a big business. And they
had d i f f e r e n t s i z e s and d i f f e r e n t shapes of pews f o r d i f f e r e n t
denominations. They had found distinctions, which I have
thought was t e r r i b l y amusing. [laughter] But Christian
S c i e n t i s t s apparently were f a t t e r and larger, and took more
space than the Catholics and the Episcopalians. But anyway
i t ' s very amusing t o find t h a t the people who had looked a t
the one end of the r e l i g i o n found these distinctions!
[break in tape]
I was v i s i t i n g Charles Moore. One of h i s colleagues
was there, and he showed me the new model t h a t they'd done
f o r the Beverly H i l l s City Hall, which was very, very inter-
esting, very nice. J u s t excellent. Although t h e i r o f f i c e o r
studio environment is j u s t the most awful I think I've seen.
I ' m sure t h a t i t ' s a group of a r c h i t e c t s t h a t has s o r t of
gotten together, and Char1es:has--you know, while h e ' s teaching,
i t ' s s o r t of an extension of t h e school, i n a sense. I suppose
it 's a l l r i g h t , i n a way.
But t h e i r environment had none of the w i t and fun t h a t I
f e e l M r . Moore represents! I was disappointed i n that. I
suppose t h a t t h e feeling t h a t I have i s t h a t one of t h e things
t h a t seems t o be missing i s j u s t the pure, simple idea of
making something quite beautiful, i f you can use such a word
now; I guess you can't; but I do.
The Marketers of Architecture
C a l l i s t e r : I take architecture t o somewhat be l i k e flower arranging, you
know; you find the circumstance o r the material you have.
(And I did arrange flowers f o r years i n the church.) You
have the container, you have an environment, you have some-
thing t h a t ' s available, and you begin putting it together.
In the Orient, of course, t h a t ' s a very profound art.
Sculpture, flower arranging, and poetry and calligraphy,
a l l those arts blend together. It was very i n t e r e s t i n g t o
me i n Japan. Here i n our o f f i c e J i m ' s [James Bishoff] a r t
work is very fine; t h i s i s one of h i s p r i n t s on the w a l l
announcing the b i r t h o f . h i s child. And this is h i s Christmas
card, over here. He's very, very talented, very great. He
was one of m
y f i r s t students a t Stanford.
C a l l i s t e r : We've t r i e d t o plan more artfulness t o things i n t h i s office.
We're rather disdainful of the very hard presentations we see
other firms make, very bordered and clean-lined and, you know,
graphs, and a l l t h i s . [laughs] We've a t t r a c t e d a group of
c l i e n t s who don't l i k e t h a t and won't put up with i t , who
a r e probably more interested i n the aesthetics of architecture.
We're s o self-conscious about being up-to-date. I guess
I've gone through t h e whole period of the International Style;
I never had a c o n f l i c t with it, because I never thought I
p a r t i c u l a r l y would be involved or had t o be involved i n t h a t
s o r t of a project. Here w e were i n a very romantic area; here
I saw no need of that kind of approach. It was never necessary.
I didn't argue with i t , ,I thought i t was great that it was
being done. And I think it was done more sincerely by many
people than I see things being done today, work which I think
is s o r t of indifferent--to anything.
Today you can do anything--the p l u r a l i s t i c aspect of
things today is great, I think, and there should be a l l t h a t
variety. Not r e a l l y t o t r y t o t i e i t down t o what is current
and not current.
Riess : Don't you think that, a s new people continue t o come t o t h e
Bay Area, t h e f i r s t thing they're always going t o be attracted
t o is t h e wood? That s l i d e show you gave me downstairs--that
w i l l always be the Bay Area t r a d i t i o n , and you're part of
that.
C a l l i s t e r : There is a beautiful t r a d i t i o n here; very exciting, a s you .
know. J u s t walk around, j u s t be i n it. So, i f t h a t doesn't -
influence you, I say, "Go away!" Some of t h e things I s e e
t h a t a r e happening such a s t h i s dreadful thing i n t h e East
Bay, called Blackhawk, which i s so pretentious and s o dreadful--
I don't know i f you've seen i t or not.
Riess: I thought it had been stopped because of
side of M t . Diablo?
its location on the
C a l l i s t e r : Yes, i t ' s way out there, yes. But i t ' s carrying the Disney
approach t o architecture, which is t o miss the whole inherent
opportunity. W
e were doing a project i n the East Bay, and,
of course, marketing people have an influence today upon
architecture. They w i l l tell you what people want, r a t h e r
than you yourself l i s t e n i n g and interpreting. Which is too
bad. [buzzer rings] Excuse me.
C a l l i s t e r : They do have t h e insight a s t o what people want. So we did 

t h i s project i n t h e East Bay; and J i m was very much involved 

i n t h i s , and was carrying t h e project, really. He did up a 

very nice presentation which we worked out together, i n the 

sense of doing a design interpretation of t h e old vineyard 

and winery t h a t was there on t h e s i t e . A n i c e motif t o extend 

t o the new project. But t h e market people said, no, i t 

wouldn't work, it had t o be half timber or French provincial. 

Because they had tested the market. [laughs] W e l l , sure, 

you could do French provincial. In f a c t , J i m did an inter- 

esting thing; he did a very nice French provincial and a very 

nice half timber r i g h t away. But we didn't keep the job. 

I ' m j u s t interested, though, t h a t we're finding t h a t
where the r o l e of the a r c h i t e c t used t o be more of t r a n s l a t i n g
l i s t e n i n g and feeling, now we're being told how high it w i l l
be, how wide i t w i l l be, what the kitchen sinks w i l l be. I
spent so many months on a project I ' m doing r i g h t now t h a t ' s
being b u i l t , and i t ' s been so discouraging, because everybodywrongfully
participates. Particularly t h e salespeople and marketing
people saying, "Well, you need walk-in closets." No matter
what i t does t o the architecture, they don't care. They don't
see the architecture, they j u s t see whether there's a walk-in
closet o r not. O r whether the bathroom i s i n the middle of
a carpeted sea. A l l these strange s o r t of things t h a t they
f e e l a r e the most saleable things. Normally i t ' s out of con-
text.
They ask t h e question, "Do you want the c a r convenient t o
your house, o r even i n your house, or attached t o your house?"
People w i l l say, "Yes." But we've demonstrated t i m e and time
again t h a t i f t h e c a r is detached, and t h e amenitiesare worth it.
people pay l e s s a t t e n t i o n t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e car i s detached.
Riess : 	 This is a whole d i f f e r e n t thing; t h i s dialogue t h a t you have
with c l i e n t s i s f r u i t f u l , but you're having a dialogue with
the people who a r e t h e middlemen.
C a l l i s t e r : 	 Yeah. There a r e d i f f e r e n t s p e c i a l i s t s and things a r e special-
izing out of t h e a r c h i t e c t ' s hands. And even i n church design
and building, now there a r e people who w i l l come i n and counsel
the church a s t o what design they should have. They w i l l t e l l
you the s t y l e they can best r a i s e money f o r , which is too bad.
There a r e firms t h a t do nothing but go around the country and
r a i s e funds f o r t h e churches. They're paid a large f e e f o r
t h e i r services. hen they have a l o t of authority.
Riess : 	 Yeah. I f there's so much authority, you'd think they could
use i t w e l l .
C a l l i s t e r : Well, some can. But often i t ' s abused, because they don't
know, t h e i r t r a i n i n g is not i n the design area. Their training
i s sometimes i n the mundane: "Don't do anything controversial,
because w e ' l l have a hard time r a i s i n g funds." I f you're
r e a l l y an imaginative fund-raiser, you'd say;"Letls do some-
thing controversial." That demonstrates something; those a r e
the differences i n people, even fund r a i s e r s .
Bay Area Church Architecture
R i e s s : Who do you think of a s good church a r c h i t e c t s i n t h e Bay Area?
You a r e one. How about others, contemporaries whose work you
think is i n t e r e s t i n g ?
C a l l i s t e r : Oh, yes. The man who did the Greek Orthodox church i n the
Oakland h i l l s , Bob Olwell [with Reid and Tarics]. Olwell
has great t a l e n t i n church design.
Riess : Mario Ciampi?
C a l l i s t e r : Mario Ciampi, yes. Well, he's
religious buildings.
done some f i n e church and
He shared an o f f i c e i n the same building t h a t I did, on
Bush Street. I can remember he was doing a very elongated
church t h a t ' s out i n the South San Francisco area. I can't
think of the name of the church now. He was doing the work
for t h e l o c a l diocese. But they d i d n ' t l i k e h i s building.
And I remember meeting him i n t h e elevator and he had a model
of h i s church, which was very shoebox-like--the model was
about a shoebox size. H e ' s a wonderful man, I l i k e him--I
think h i s museum over there is delightful; I don't care what
Allan Temko says about it. [laughter] Anyway, he was carry-
ing t h i s model i n the elevator, and he says, "Warren, I ' m
going t o see the Pope." He was g e t t i n g nowhere with t h e
l o c a l diocese, s o he was ''taking i t t o the Pope." Ilaughter]
He did get it approved, too. They b u i l t i t , s o he was right.
I n s p i t e of the l o c a l p r i e s t s who d i d n r t l i k e it.
Riess : How about St. Mary's Cathedral?
C a l l i s t e r : I think i t ' s an i n t e r e s t i n g tour de force. I find i t ' s over-
whelming i n some ways. M
y f i r s t impression was t h a t I didn't
think God would l i k e i t , but t h a t was m
y own f i r s t impression
of the building. I f e l t it seemed too i n s t i t u t i o n a l i n some
C a l l i s t e r : way. I mean,
refinement of
i t almost seems bank-like somehow. Maybe the
r i c h materials overwhelmed the architecture.
The old one was so r i c h and so loving i n its feeling; t h e
new one is so harsh and acoustically d i f f i c u l t . I highly
respect [Pietro] Belluschi, so I r e a l l y don't l i k e t o
c r i t i c i z e . I suppose f o r its purposes i t ' s outstanding.
Riess : I think of i t a s [Pier Luigi] Nervi's work.
C a l l i s t e r : Well, it s t a r t e d out with the l o c a l a r c h i t e c t s who did a l o t
of the diocese work. A couple of generations, i n fact--
father and son. [McSweeney, Ryan and Lee] Fortunately they
decided t o get outside counsel, which was very good. I ' m glad
Belluschi came i n t o give i t some form, some shape, because
i n i t i a l l y i t was very poor. So t h a t was great. I don't know,
maybe a s it weathers and so f o r t h i t w i l l be fine.
Transcriber: Elizabeth Eshleman
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancrof t Library Berkeley, California
Renaissance of Relfgious A r t and Architecture
i n the San Francisco Bay Area, 1946-1968
Vivian Cummings and Harold W. Cummings
C
U
M
M
I
N
G
S STAINE3 GLASS STUDIO
An Interview Conducted by
Suzanne B. R i e s s
i n 1984
Copyright @ ,1985 by The Regents of the University of California
TABLE O
F CONTENTS -- Vivian Cummings and Harold W. Cummings
INTERVIEW HISTORY
C
U
M
M
I
N
G
S STUDIO BEGINNINGS, 1922
Designers
Triumvirate with Arnold Constable and Father Blank
Gothic Revival, 1930, 1940s
TECHNIQUE
Lucent Mosaic
Faceted Glass
T
H
E CLIENT-STUDIO RELATIONSHIP
BAY A
R
E
A STAINED GLASS COMPANIES, CHURCH A
R
T CATALOGUES
FACETED GLASS AND LIGHT
THE DESIGNER-STUDIO RELATIONSHIP
CHANGES
Educating the Client's Taste
Experimentat ion
Architecture and t h e Ministry of t h e Church
Hilda Sachs
"God 's People"
INTERVIEW HISTORY
A s our s e r i e s of interviews on l i t u r g i c a l a r t s i n the Bay Area expanded
t o several points beyond works f o r the Catholic Church, p o s s i b i l i t i e s f o r
interviews opened up t o include such f i n e workshops a s the Cummings Stained
Glass Studios, founded by Harold "Pat" Cummings. Until it moved t o North
Adams, Massachusetts, i n 1977, it was located i n San Francisco, California.
Much of t h e e a r l y work of t h e studio, a s the interview discovers, was sacred,
ecumenical, and inspired.
A major source of the inspiration was Vivian Cummings, "the s p i r i t u a l
leader of t h e whole thing," a s her son says. The interview makes c l e a r t h a t
work i n stained g l a s s requires a l o t of excellent cooperation among a r t i s t s
whose approach and l i m i t s a r e different, a f i n e l y tuned e a r f o r what t h e
c l i e n t wants, and an a b i l i t y t o maintain creative control, politely. Vivian
Cummings' son B i l l , the co-interviewee, with h i s BA i n music education and
performance, obviously has a f i n e l y tuned ear. He laughingly says h i s
mother, who was always down a t the studio when it was i n San Francisco, has
I1
a very loud voicew--but seriously t h a t she was the nurturing s p i r i t of the
studio.
Charles Warren C a l l i s t e r had "Pat" Cummings r i g h t a t hand when he wanted
glass f o r t h e F i r s t Church of Christ, S c i e n t i s t , Belvedere. In 1959
Armitage says, i n writing of Cummings Studio's breakthrough i n g l a s s work,
"In t h e now famous l i t t l e F i r s t Church of Christ, S c i e n t i s t , i n Belevdere,
stained glass has been used i n v e r t i c a l s h a f t s of coloured glass on c l e a r
g l a s s f i e l d s together with native redwood t o form the walls of the church.
The s h a f t s themselves vary i n width, and there is a play i n the widths of
the leads used a s w e l l . The coloration runs t h e spectrum, with c e l e s t i a l
blues leading out from t h e high apex of t h i s kite-shaped building."
Another technique the Cummings Studio is credited with perfecting is
Lucent Mosaic, "a c a s t process i n which very small tesserae of glass a r e
used with sparse or no painting. This method i s especially e f f e c t i v e where
d e t a i l is important." (Stained Glass, E. L. Armitage)
It is i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t stained glass experienced a renaissance of its
own i n the 1950s a t a time t h a t t h a t same r e b i r t h of f e e l i n g f o r t h e
s p i r i t u a l embodied i n the a r t s of the church was a l i v e l y cause. Particu-
l a r l y s a t i s f y i n g f o r t h i s project is the f a c t t h a t the Cummings work allows
us t o look f u r t h e r a t the c l i e n t relationship and t h e creative process a t
work i n r e l i g i o u s a r t .
I met with Vivian Cummings a t home i n Tiburon. B i l l (Harold W.)
Cummings was i n t h e Bay Area f o r business and a family v i s i t , and what
follows is a j o i n t interview t h a t brings out the developments f o r which
Cummings Studios a r e responsible, the kind of commissions they had, the
way they worked together, and t h e combination of technology and joy t h a t
t h i s group discovered.
Suzanne B. Riess
Interviewer-Editor
October 1984
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California a t Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office University of California
Room 486 The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 94720
iii
BI0GRAPH1CAI, INFORMATION
(Please p r i n t o r write clearly)
C
Your f u l l name
4
'
u 

Date of b i r t h .28- 9d Lf Place of b i r t h &?$=2
4.4- A
4
l
A
.
n J
'Y
Father's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Mother's f u l l name
Birthplace
Occupation
Where did you grow up ?
Present community ,
/
Education
Special i n t e r e s t s o r a c t i v i t i e s
HAROLD WILBUR (BILL) CUMMINGS 

Cummings Studios
PERSONAL: The Barn
182 E. Main St.
1941 Born: Berkeley, California North Adams, MA 01247
1970 Married: Judy Lee Jurs
One daughter: Elisabeth Ann Cunrmings
4 3 6646578 [North Adams, MA)
415 776 2518 [Son Francisco.CA)
EDUCATION:
H. W. Cummlngs
President
1954-1958 	TAMALPAIS HIGH SCHOOL, Mill Valaey, California
Sophamore Class President
Juniar Class President .
Student Body President
Drum Major Tamalpais High School Marching Band
American Field Service (AFS) student to Germany
AWARDS: Math: Algebra Award
Music: Clarian Award
Fine Arts: Baak of America Award
1958-1959 	PRINCIPIA COLLEGE, Elsah, Illinois 

Freshman year 

1959-1962 	SAN FRANCISCO STATE COLLEGE, San Francisco, 

California. 	Major: Music--Specialty: Oboe 

First Chair in Orchestra 

First Chair in Band 

Gump Award 

Baritone Saxaphone in Stage Band 

1965 	 BA-Music Education and Performance--Oboe 

AWARDS:
1958 Bank of America: F.beArts 

1958 Bank of America: Music 

1958 Clarian: Music 

1960 Gump: Music--Oboe 

1964 Stained Glass Association of America (SGAA): 

Apprenticeship 

1977 	 A. I.A. (Central Valley Chapter of Northern California) 

Award for Design and Craftsmanship for faceted glass 

windows designed by Hilda Sachs for Mosaic Law 

Synagogue, Sacramento, California 

1977 	 Lighting and Industry Award for Design and fabrica-
tion of light fixtures designed by Hilda Sachs and
fabricated for American Bank & Trust Co., San Jose,
California
SHOWS:
1964 Museum of Contemporary Arts 61 Crafts, New York, New York
1979 Berkshire Athenaeum, Pittsfield, Massachusetts
1979 East Central Junior College, Washington, Missouri
A Member of
The Stained Glass
Asscclatlon of
Arnedca
Coliforn~o
CmtroctOrS
L i c m C-I7 273927
LIST O
F M
A
J
O
R COMMISSIONS
5 r o l d W. C d n g s
Cummings Studios
Class
All Saints Episcopal Church, Palo Alto, California
St. Joseph's Catholic Church. Roseburg. Oregon
Gloria Dei Lutheran Church. Olympia, Washington
First Methodist Church. Lon Catos. California
bdonru d e l Sasso Catholic Church, Salims.
California 

Officers Open Mess, Fort Levis. Washington 

1st Brigade (Col. Durham) Chapel, Fort Ord. 

Calif ornia
tde Residence. St. Helena. California
The Wine Garden. St. Helear. California
Isngford ~ e s i d e n c e ,San ~nselmo. Celifornia
Kuting Residence, Tahoe City, California
State Building tl. Honolulu, Hawaii
Wasatch Presbyterian Church. Salt Lake City, Utah
Breuner Residence, Alamo, California
St. James Catholic Church. Davis, California
First Armenian Presbyterian Church, Fremo.
California
Olzack Brothers Liquor Store, Atvater, California
First Baptist Church. Frerno, California
First B l p t i r t Church, EureLa. California
Hrraic LAWSynagogue, Sacramento, California
St. Paul's American Luthersn Church, Lodi.
Calif ornia 

Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church. Colura. 

California 

Nwato Presbyterian Church, Novato, California 

I
First Methodist Church. Corvallis. Oregon (Res-
.toration) Original vindova by Povey Bror.,
Portlmd. Oregon
St. Peter's Lutheran Church, Lodi. California
Rosenberg Residence. Nor York, N
e
w York 

Faxton Hospital, Utica. Nev York 

First Methodist Church, Corvrllis, Oregon 

(Chancel)
First Congregational Church. ~ c r k e l e y
, California
Pilgrim Congregationel Church. Cambridge.
Massachusetts
Coamunity Methodist Church, Brentvood. California
I
Conant Residence. Potomac, Maryland
Senate Lobby. Nor York Senate Chwnbers. Albany. NY
St. Francis of Asriri Catholic Church, Windsor.
Vermont
St. Joseph'r Catholic Church. Wakefield. Massachu-
s e c t s
' Designer
1972 Sachs
1972 Sachs
1974 Pinart
1974 Pinart
1974 Pinart
1974 Sachs
1975 Karavina
1975 Sachs
1975 S a e b
1975 Pinarc
1976 Sachs
1976 Rigan
1976 Sachs
1977 Sachs
1977 Sachs
Architect 

Interior Designer (I.D.) 

Carvood 

Wolf f/Zhaer/Gunrul h Frask 

~rantlCopelandh Chervemk 

~ o b b l s i w e r 

Holevinski h Bl&s 

Cannel h Chaffin, I.D. 

Shoso Kagava 

Mau/BamumlFolsorn 6 Mlrza 

Avedisian 

'
Dreyfusr h Blackford
1977 Crandin- Tomich 6 Yee 

Nettles 

1977 Sacha 

1978 Sachs Peterson 

1978 Restoration MaeCollin 

1978 Crandin- RickeylBrooh
Nettle8
Cummings, J.L.
Sachs Joan Hillier8 (I.D.)
Elrkus b e C o l l i n
Sachr
Rertoratiaa Davies/Bibbinr/Mendcrs
Sachr 

vanHeukelow Ekstrom 

D
U
m
1980 Sachr Mendel/Mesick/Cohen 6 Waice
1980 Pinart Korinski L Asso.
1980 Pinart Moore h O'Marah
Willovbrook Regiorul Shopping Mall. Houston. T e x a ~ 1981 Sachs Romrt Development Co.
Neban-Marcus, Union Square, S m Francisco. 1982 Restoration Philip Johnson
California (Restorition)
State Judiciary Building. Honolulu. 5 v a i i 1982 Uravina lfuraysnulMiya==hi
List of Major Ccmmirsionr, Continued 

page 2 

Metropolitan United Methodist Church, 

Detroit, nichigan 

Narthu 

Pastor'r Study 

Thompson k o r i a l Chpel, W i l l i a m College.
Willimatovn, Massachumetts (Restoration) 

f i r s t Christian Church. Ranford, California 

St. Paul's American Lutheran Church. Lodi, 

California (narthex)
Our Lady of Mt. Camel Church, Scekonk,
~ s s a c h u ~ e t t s
Old Uureuu Building. State Capitol h p l u .
Harrisburg. P
A (Restoration)
Yddo Corporation. Saratoga Springs. Nf
(Restoration)
St. n i c h a l ' s Church. Troy, Nev Pork
St. John the Divine Ammian Church ( n w St. Hark's
Church), Springfield. MA (Xestoratioa)
Nev York State Senate. Albany. NP (Phase 1
1-
Bistorlc Regeneration)
Van Vleck Residence. b k e Almnnor. CA (Adaptive
Re-Use)
Superior Court. Eerrisburg. PA (Restoration)
O l y q ~ i aCentre. Chicago, ILL
Andrm Air force Base.
Shrine of the I ~ c u l a t e
Conception. Atlanta,
CA (Adaptive Re-be)
Victoria 6 Albert Hweum. London. England
(Raatoration)
Masonic Tenrple. Salem. IU
Otaego County Courthouse. Cooperatom, NP
(Restoration)
Temple *nu-El. Atlanta, CA
Temple Sholam, Cedar Grove, NJ
St. Francis k v i e r Chpel, Cumberland, BI
nCsservy Residence, Boston. K
4 (Restoration)
St. nichael's Church, Mendon. MA
P u c a Dale Congregatimsl Church, Paaca Dale,
R.I. (Restorstion)
Class Architect 

Designer Interior Designer (I.D.) 

1982 

1982 

1982 

1982 

1982 Sachs
1982 Cilsoul Rolmes 6 Edvards
Ceddes. Brecher. *lls
1962 6 CMninghuP
1982 Tiffany
1983 D. Wilson
1983
1983
1983
1983
1983
1983
1983-
1984 H. Smith
1983
1983
1983
1984 P. l h t n e r
1984 D. Vllson
1984 H
. Sachs
1984
1984
1984
C
U
M
M
I
N
G
S STAINED GLASS STUDIO
[Date of Interview: January 16, 19841
Cummings Studio Beginnings, 1922
VC : Although people were reaching f o r abstract design, I think t h e
churches weren't very willing t o accept them e a r l i e r , but I think
one thing t h a t helped t h a t a great deal, helped make the change,
was the bringing i n of faceted glass. There were a few men i n
t h i s country who did a great deal of research and experimentation.
And m
y husband [Harold W. "Pat" Cummings], before he was a .
stained-glass man h e was an engineer, s o he had a great deal of
technical knowledge t h a t most stained-glass people don't have.
He was the f i r s t man who actually made and i n s t a l l e d faceted
glass i n t h i s country.
Riess: Would you explain how faceted glass and stained glass a r e and
not alike.
a r e
VC : Well, the t r a d i t i o n a l stained glass, as it was practiced from t h e
Middle Ages u n t i l our own century, was a leaded glass, and its
s t y l e s over the centuries changed very radically too, and its use
of color changed radically. So t h a t j u s t l i k e everything e l s e
t h a t ' s human, it was never a s t a t i c thing, except that the tech-
nique f o r putting i t together was p r e t t y established.
R i e s s : And where does t h e color come from?
applied?
The color i s i n t h e g l a s s o r
VC : No, t h e color i n a l l stained glass is i n the glass, and i t ' s
obtained through t h e use of metals, m e K l l i c oxides. Of course,
g l a s s is made from sands and various chemicals, you know, and
when i t ' s i n t h a t stage t h e color is determined by the chemicals
t h a t a r e added i n the pot, so t h a t everything i n t h a t pot is one
color a s i t ' s blown.
VC : Then t h e t r a d i t i o n a l form of making t h a t kind of glass, which we
term "antique glass,'' is t o blow it. The blowers have very long
pipes, and they make what they c a l l a gather from the pot, and
they s t a r t t o blow it and t o r o l l the pipe i n t h e i r hands i n
order t o keep balancing t h a t bubble. Then every once i n a while
they have t o return the bubble t o the f i r e i n order t o keep i t
i n a p l a s t i c stage.
Then when i t ' s i n a nice big bubble, you know, l i k e so
[gesturing], it can be put i n t o a mold which makes a cylinder
of i t [American method]; and then when the mold is released, the
cylinder is cooled--the ends cut off--and scored down t h e length
(thus cutting i t ) so t h a t as i t i s reheated, it i s flattened out
a t about 11000 by men who reach i n the k i l n with long sticks.
It's usually annealed on s t e e l . A rather rough texture is
achieved by t h e steam escaping the watersoaked wooden mold a s
the molten glass comes i n contact with the mold.
Riess: That's
i t ?
interesting, and t h a t ' s been the t r a d i t i o n a l way of doing
VC : That's the way it's done.
And, you see, each piece of glass t h a t ' s blown w i l l have
d i f f e r e n t thicknesses i n it, and the thickness of the g l a s s
determines i t s intensity, o r the degree of the color value. So
t h a t a thick piece, which could be almost a quarter of an inch
thick, would be very deep i n tone, whereas a very t h i n piece
would be l i g h t e r i n tone. So t h a t as the man who is selecting
t h e glass needs variations from t h e same piece of glass, he can
get many tones. So there's an i n f i n i t e variety.
Riess: When your husband s t a r t e d t h e business,
of glass?
he was doing t h i s kind
VC : No, he never blew glass. He designed windows and fabricated
the windows and i n s t a l l e d them. The business of making the
glass i t s e l f is a d i f f e r e n t business. The glass t h a t m
y husband
used came from France o r England o r Germany o r from t h i s country,
and Blenko glass i n West Virginia was the leader i n the making
of hand-blown glass i n t h i s country, and s t i l l is I think.
Riess: And so i n 1922, when the Cummings Studio s t a r t e d , your husband's
background, you say, was i n engineering? Would you explain how
he got s t a r t e d i n the whole business, how it a l l began?
VC : Well, h i s training was i n engineering, but he came from q u i t e an
a r t i s t i c family, and he was j u s t absolutely entranced with
stained glass. He couldn't pass a church t h a t had stained glass
Riess :
VC :
R i e s s :
VC :
R i e s s :
VC :
R i e s s :
i n i t without stopping and looking a t i t , and he studied i t and
he made it a r e a l i n t e r e s t , a deep i n t e r e s t . Finally he bought
a stained-glass studio, but i t wasn't doing the kind of stained
glass he was interested i n ; it was doing back bar, you know, t h i s
s o r t of thing, and so he worked t o change that. He wanted t o do
beautiful stained glass t h a t would stand up, you know, and he
used the old medieval a s h i s standard.
You mean stand up a r t i s t i c a l l y ?
Stand up a r t i s t i c a l l y .
And when you said "back bar," you mean barroom?
Y e s , t h a t ' s what I meant. Then he went t o Europe t o study stained
glass a s well. He studied i n England and France, and he went t o
one place i n Spain, but t h a t ' s a d i f f e r e n t story. He was always
a scholar s o f a r a s stained glass was concerned. He'd come home
and have h i s dinner and go off t o h i s room and study stained glass,
and there was never an end t o it.
He could actually do everything t h a t was needed t~ do .to
c r e a t e a stained-glass window. But when you have a studio you
j u s t don't have t i m e f o r t h a t s o r t of thing, s o you have a s t a f f .
But you have the concept; and t h i s is where I think sometimes
we don't give t h e master craftsman t h e c r e d i t he deserves; i t ' s
-
h i s concept, h e ' l l t a l k with t h e c l i e n t , f o r example, and h e ' l l
have t h i s vision of what i t could be.
Of course, the f i r s t thing is always t h e consideration of
the architecture, and you'll remember t h a t i n t h i s period i n
history, e a r l y i n h i s career, there was a great renaissance of
t h e c l a s s i c a l forms, the Gothic, and t h a t s o r t of thing, and so
t h a t w a s t h e type of stained glass t h a t was appropriate t o make
f o r those churches. And so then he would have t h e concept.
Then he would t a l k with one of h i s designers, and say, "This is
t h e way it's going t o be. N
o
w you can research the d e t a i l on
these things, but a t any r a t e l e t ' s see a sketch on it."
The d e t a i l might be some of t h e iconography?
Y e s .
Is t h a t what you would mean by t h e d e t a i l , what episode i n t h e
Bible was being i l l u s t r a t e d ?
That's r i g h t .
Designers
Riess: What kind of designers did he have?
VC : Well, t h e f i r s t designer t h a t I knew anything about was a
remarkable Dutch woman who was a beautifully trained a r t i s t i n
her own r i g h t . She had been a painter, but she was intrigued
with stained glass and she pleaded f o r t h e opportunity t o learn,
so she came and was with us f o r a long time. H e r name was
Wilhelmina Von Ogterop.
Riess: H
o
w do you s p e l l the l a s t name?
VC : V-o-n 0-g-t-e-r-o-p. So she w a s one of
of course, we had many designers.
them, and over the years,
W
e have a designer now, Hilda Sachs, who came from Berlin,
f l e d Berlin, f l e d the Nazis, you know, and she was basically a
graduate of the f i n e s t a r t school i n Berlin. And she had worked
i n various f i e l d s , such as theater sets and costumes, the designing
of wallpaper and designing fashion, and then again, you see, she
was absolutely enamored with stained glass, and she came and asked
my husband i f she could serve an apprenticeship. M
y husband said,
1t
A person with your training wouldn't want t o serve an apprentice-
ship, you couldn't afford t o serve an apprenticeship.'' So she
asked what an apprentice got, and he said 55 percent of t h e
journeyman's wage, and she said, "I can do it."
I was i n the studio during t h e time of her serving an appren-
ticeship, and she served four years a s an apprentice, s o t h a t she
has the f e e l and expertise. She knows what can be done and what
can't be done. There're c e r t a i n c u t s t h a t aren't natural t o glass,
you know. She's very clever, she's very good.
Riess: You were saying t h a t t h e master craftsman is ultimately t h e
designer.
VC : It's h i s concept, and he keeps, of course, i n close touch with
what's being done. Now, there a r e times when a designer is
p a r t i c u l a r l y gifted i n c e r t a i n things. For example, we had one
designer whose name was Norbert Graves, and he had a master's
i n heraldry, and so he w a s p a r t i c u l a r l y good i n those f i e l d s .
He had a l s o s t a r t e d t o learn t o be a p r i e s t , and t h a t didn't
work out f o r him. So, you see, he had q u i t e a background. And
while my husband had a f i n e l i b r a r y , s t i l l Norbert had access
t o l i b r a r i e s t h a t none of the r e s t of us had.
Riess: Where did he put h i s heraldry s k i l l s t o work?
VC : 	 Well, sometimes there would be a f i n e home, say, i n a l i b r a r y 

o r a dining room o r somewhere, where there would be a l a r g e 

g l a s s expanse of, say, leaded glass, and then every once i n a 

while there would be some expression of heraldry: the husband's 

family's coat of arms, the wife's family's coat of arms, the 

university's, the f r a t e r n i t y and t h e sorority, t h e honor 

society's, and the whole thing, a regular family history. 

Riess: 	 Oh, i t ' s splendid; it's j u s t nothing I ever associate with San
Francisco.
VC : 	 Well, there are, there a r e things l i k e t h a t . It makes a very
i n t e r e s t i n g wall, you know, very interesting.
Riess: 	 Are there any other designers who worked with your husband t h a t
come t o mind?
VC : 	 Oh yes, I should say so. Let m
e see. [ r e f e r s t o papers]
Riess: 	 Quite frankly, what I wonder is were there any t h a t were famous
before or went on t o become t r u l y famous i n t h e i r own r i g h t a s
a r t i s t s ?
VC : 	 Well, a f t e r &y husband passed on i n 1962, m
y two sons were
involved i n the studio f o r a while, and they introduced i n t o the
organization of the studio a d i f f e r e n t type of designing. M
y
husband always had resident designers--permanent members of the
s t a f f , you know--and m
y sons f e l t t h a t t h a t was a limiting way
of doing it. So they worked with Mark Adams and others.
R i e s s : 	 I n t h a t kind of s i t u a t i o n , would they have asked Mark Adams o r
would the a r c h i t e c t have asked Mark Adams?
VC : 	 It could be e i t h e r way. Let's see. [ r e f e r s t o papers] I made
some notes here. There was Gyorgy Kepes, who was t h e head of the
a r t department of MIT; he did some designing f o r the studio.
Riess: 	 Was t h a t f o r work out here?
VC : 	 Y e s , i n Oregon.
And then Robert Sowers; you remember, he's the man who .
designed the s i d e of one of the a i r p o r t s i n New York. [American
Airlines terminal a t John F. Kennedy Airport] He designed a
number of things f o r m
y sons when they were working it out.
Then, there's Robert Pinarto who's a French designer and a
very, very f i n e designer, and he's s t i l l working with B i l l
[Cummings] r i g h t now. I want B i l l t o come and t e l l you about
the people t h a t he's working with a t the present time because
he's doing some very contemporary things.
- -
from New Glass, by Otto B. Rigan, San Francisco Book Co
San Francisco 1976.
Bill CummingsIHilda Saehs 

Bill and Hilda depart from the other glass artists documented here
in two major ways: first, they are trying to maintain in a large studio an atmo-
sphere conduciveto the creationof artfulstainedglass; and second, theywork
together as interdependentartistsldesigners. Bill's imageof the ultimate stained-
glassstudiois aplace for spontaneouswork on a very large scale-the produc-
tion of works that a singleartist, acting independently, could not achieve.
Cwmmings Studioswas founded by Bill's father. It is located in an
unlikely corrugated metal warehouse, in the light industry district of San
Rafael, California. The feeling of the studio, from the inside looking out, con-
trasts sharply with the used-car lots, body-and-fender repair shops, and boat
marina that dominate the area. The studio consciously works at creating a
relaxing and workable atmosphere. Often I've walked through the indusG1-
like entryway to discoveran environmentfilledwith soundsof classicalpiano
being performed live specially for the working aaftspeople.
Hilda, who was raised and educated in Berlin, has worked as a
stage designer (Berlin),a fashion designer (London), and a designer of wall-
papers and textiles (San Francisco). She served a formal apprenticeship with
Cumrnings Studios starting in 1952and has been working with stained glass
sincethat time. Billwas educatedasa musician. After finishingcollegein 1964
he studied with his father for four months until his father's sudden death. Bill
and Hilda have been working as a team since 1968.
We have known each other since 1952. Our close working relationship
began in the midst of individual and collective emotional turmoil and struggle. As we
work togetherit is increasinglyevident that the ideaof communityworks. Individually
we canonlygrow asfast as we allow or push ourselves. Togetherwespark ideasin one
anotherand the growth isstaggering-this is truly an exampleof 1 +1 =3. As our .
working relationshiphasgrm, so hasourstudiosituation,and working togetherwith
five other people we are able to demonstrate wholenessand totalityas we never would
have imagined.
The rules we play by demand a coming together with no preconqtions
in approaching new problems. T h y demand total loyalty, dedication, openness and
trust-to ourselves, tooneanother,and toour individualand collectiveaestheticaims.
In our community we are in a continual state of equilibriumldisequilibrium.Wefind
we are continually strangers and continually changing, but is this not the basis of a
good piece of art? Stainedglass isourwayoflife-through this mediumweareexpress-
ing our lives, our aims, our hopes.
Kitchen window. 1974. San Anselmo,California, residence.
Designed by Hilda Sachs and built by CummingsStudios.
Bill Cummingsglazingaleaded-glasspanel.
Hilda Sachsputtingthefinishingtoucheson
a full-scaledwindow design.
324b
from Stained Glass, History, Technology and Practice, by E. Liddall
Armitage, Charles T. Branford Co., Newton, Massachusetts, 1959.
CHAPTER 22 '
Firing 

There is no particular mystery about firing. The writer once trained a bricklayer's
labourer to do thiswork. He enjoyedit and within a month was firingaswell as any
kihnan one would be likely to find. everthheless it is a responsiblejob requiring
constant care and attention. A bad kilnsman can spoilmuch of the work, and a man
who doeshisjob well deservesrecognitionandrespect.
It is analagous.tothe art of cooking. Skillcanonlybe acquiredby ~ractical
experi-
ence of which glasses are hard and need to be put in the hottest part of the kiln, and
which are softer and requires less heat. As with orchary cooking stoves the charac-
teristics of kilns vary, and the best results can only be obtained by experiencewith
anyparticulartypes. Thefundamentalprincipleis to heat theglassslowlyand to cool
it gradually. If t
h
i
sis done carefully and the glass watched through the peephole in
thekiln, nothing cangowrong.
The painted glass to be fired is brought to the kiln room and transferred to metal
trays. These metal trayshave first to be fded with plaster of ~aris.
It is wisest to buy
the best quality and to make surethat it is thoroughly dry before using. Onemethod
is to heap theplaster on to the metal trays and then heat them thoroughly in the kiln
to remove any possible moisture. It is then removed and allowed to cool ready for
use. Damp plaster will cause blisters and bumps on the even surfaceof the glass, and
can easily necessitate recutting and repainting. Most k k m e n put the bags of new
plaster on top of theheatedkiln. Thisis quiteasound method andthe wholepoint is
to makesurethat theplaster isnot damp.
The plaster with which the trays have been looselyfilled must be pressed down to
form a fairly firm and smooth bed for the glass. Any dents or impressions on the
plaster can actas a mould intowhich semi-molten glassisliableto sink. T
h
i
ssmooth-
ing andflatteningcanbe done eitherwith asmalltrowel,aroller orwith along,wide
andflatpaletteknife.
In the Cummings' Studiosin SanFranciscoit was noticedthat the usual metal tray
with plaster bedding for h g had been discarded and composition trays requiring
no plaster were used instead. This seemed to be an improvement on the traditional
method as it saved labour in bedding and changing the plaster. Mr. Curnrnings ex-
' plained that the trays were made ofJohns Manville marinite and were supplied by
Western Asbestos Co., San Francisco, 3. The material is +"in thickness and grey in
colour when purchased but changes to terra cotta when the moisture is driven out.
One ofthe American studiosfound that the sheetswarped; the Curnmings' Studios,
however, experiencedno such di%culty,being most carefulto ensurethat the sheets
are separatedso that air can circulateround each sheetwhen moistureis being driven
outin the kiln.Thedrymg out must be done very slowly. - . - _
324c 

Stained Glass 

CUMMINGS STUDIOS
We are allfamiliarwith the progress of an idea through dscovery or re-discovery
(asin the case of stained glass), slavishimitation,and eventual emancipationinto the
creativestage of fresh concepts, all the while adhering to the basic principles of the
old. h the United States stained glass experienced a re-birth around the turn of
the century, and for decades followed well the traditional patterns of design. In the
last few years, however, another Sigdicant step seems to be occurring: the emer-
genceinto the creativestage,aliveto adaptitself (asisbecoming to the 'handmaid of
architecture') to the dynamicsofmodern architecture.
Here in the West is this particularly true. The contemporaryinfluenceis seenin
basic design,materialsand techniques.
While the abstract in design is by no means new in stained glass, new uses have
been evolved. For example, in the now famous little First Church of Christ, Scien-
tist, in Belvedere (Marin County, California),stained glass has been used in vertical
shaftsofcolouredglasson clear glassfieldstogether with native redwood to formthe
walls of the church. The shaftsthemselves vary in width, and there is a play in the
widths of the leads used as well. The coloration runs the spectrum, with celestial
bluesleadingoutfiom thehigh apexofthiskite-shaped building.
The developmentof the techniqueofthickfacetedglassin concrete (whichwe call
'Vitrolith') has been considerably forwarded technically, overcoming many of the
early problems of fabrication. This challenging medium has been most effectively
used in modem concrete buildings where it speaks with power and forthright-
ness.
Another technique perfected and proven isLucent Mosaic, a cast process in which
very small tesserae of glass are used with sparse or no painting. This method is
especially effective where detail is important and has been used mostly in secular
buildings.
Everybody's problem is one of cost, but oftenthis leads to inventivethought, such
as in the case of Sierra High School (Catholic), San Mateo, California, where a
tremendouswindow areawas coveredby a background ofvariegatedbronze,sherry
and honey-coloured glass, on which a bdld cross was imposed together &th a free
form band in primary colour and heavy lead, depiaipg-the missionary travels of
FatherJunipera SerraestablishingthePacificCoastmissions.
Thereispresently somemovement toward the use oflarge sheetsofcolouredglass
without benefit of tracing, matting or lead came in some ultra-modern buildings.
However, it is usually the expedient of the limited budget, although when in-
herently beaudful glasses are used and colours aresensitively chosen,dramaticeffects
aresometimesobtained.
Thephotograph submittedfor thisbook is one of a seriesof stained glasswindows
for Mission SanJose, California, and is an example of a modified style designed to
compliment amodified type of architecture. The geometricbackgroundharmonizes
with the rectangular formofthe window opening, and a freer approach to matting
--
185
Modern Practice
is used. The stylized figures, the even more untraditional colour (witness a blue
donkey for St.Joseph), >d the general dynamics of design meet the challengeof an
architecturalform breaking away fiomthe old but not fullyembracingthe radically
new.
Technically,the increased use of electricityin this country hasbrought a threatto
the old gas kiln in which the successful firing of all the glass in the kiln was by no
means a foregoneconclusion,the glass on the outer edgesof the traysoftenbeing im-
perfectly fired, only to be discovered during a later process in the making of the
window. In the electrickiln, increasingly used here, heat is not only controlled but
dismbuted evenly by a blower so that the many trays of glass being fired simul-
taneously are fired reliably regardless of their position in the kiln.We regard the use
of the electrickilnasone of the most useful advancesin the actual making of stained
glass, eliminating disappointment, and labour that must be duplicated because of
breakage or imperfectfiring.
As we all know, lead creeps; that-is,it expa& more than it contracts. This par-
tially accounts for some of the bulging of old stained glass windows. We observed
through the years that chemicalcompanieslined their acid tanks with lead and they
found that the additionof alittle telluriumincreased the life of this lead to the extent
that the relining of the tankswas not necessary nearly so often. We are able to have
made lead came with a little tellurium in it; this greatly reduces the bulging pre-
viously mentioned, andwe alsofind that thislead doesnot seemto oxidizesorapidly
whenheldin stock.
Our government has interesteditseKin the problem of training stained glass ap-
prentices dong with those for other crafts and trades, and in co-operationwith the
StainedGlass Association of America, standardsfor training are setup and enforced.
Apprentices are required not only to fulGltheir time with the studios to which they
areindentured,but they are required to attend school, studying spe&cally outlined
subjects.Arrangementsfor this training areworked out with local schoolauthorities
and classes are held at night either in a technical high school or in one of the local
glassshopswherespecialequipmentisavailableforthe teaching ofitsuse.
One of the most thrilling facts about the stained glass craft in the United Statesis
the 'grading up' of the calibre and training of young men and women entering the
craft. In recent years newcomers offer increasingly excellent background and train-
ing and the red feeling of crahmnship. This was evidenced recently by the Third
Apprentice Competition conducted by the Stained Glass Association of America in
which were submitted,on the whole, by far the finest exhibitionsof promise for the
futureof the craftyet seen.
Stained glass is indubitablyin a true renaissance. Many of the medied traditions
which were the glory of the craft in its inception are no longer applicable to the
demands of today. 'Time makes ancient creeds uncouth.' But cherishing the prin-
ciples of this old and revered crafc as its life's blood, the craftsman now startsagain
where the first craftsmen started,in the need of the hour to glonfy the architecture
ofits own h e , to createfittingatmospheres,and to inspire.
PLATE
91.
Window in the Dominican Convent. 

Motherhouseand Novitiate Mission, SanJose, California, U.S.A. 

Designed and executed by the Curnmings StainedGlass Studios, SanFrancisco.

Riess: Y e s , but you're talking about the period t h a t i s most
t o me.
i n t e r e s t i n g
Triumvirate with Arnold Constable and Father Blank
Riess: Can you remember p r i e s t s or ministers coming r i g h t down t o t h e
studio and g e t t i n g themselves personally involved?
VC : Oh yes, indeed so. I remember one day when a monsignor came i n
and introduced himself t o m
y husband and he had a r o l l of blue-
p r i n t s i n h i s hands, and he said, "We're building g church, and
we want you t o do the windows." So a f t e r a long conversation
about i t , m
y husband said--it was a very unique s o r t of thing--
1'
I must say t h a t I admire your f o r t i t u d e i n s t a r t i n g something
so o r i g i n a l a s t h i s is." And he said, "You know, a few people
w i l l l i k e it, many more won't l i k e i t , but nobody w i l l ignore it."
Riess: That's interesting. What church was t h a t ?
VC : That was
you.
a church i n Los Angeles. I need those records t o t e l l
Riess: Well, maybe a f t e r t h i s i s transcribed y o u ' l l have a chance t o be
i n touch with t h e people i n Massachusetts and they can f i l l i n
the blanks.
Did you work on St. Albert's?
VC : St. Albert the Great? Oh, yes, and i t ' s an important thing because
i t ' s a training center f o r t h e Dominicans. The church i t s e l f was
designed by Arnold Constable. Have you come.across him?.
R i e s s : No, I don't know t h a t name.
VC : W e l l , you should. H e ' s t h e man who actually did the designing
of St. Dominic's i n San Francisco; he was the project designer on
St. Dominic's, and t h a t ' s a beautiful Gothic church. Do you know
that?
R i e s s : No.
VC : It's worth your while t o go and s e e it.
There was a s o r t of a beautiful triumvirate t h a t operated
over many years, during the period t h a t you're interested i n ,
and t h a t was Arnold Constable, who was a master i n t h e f i e l d of
Gothic architecture, and then there was Father Blank, who was the
head of the Dominican order, and m
y husband. They did a l l kinds
of things together, and they had the greatest brotherhood. Oh,
they j u s t had more joy i n doing things together.
Riess : 	
Did they f i r s t come together because of St. Dominic's?
VC : 	 No. St. ~ o m i n i c ' swas designed and committed before my husband
was i n the f i e l d , and the same thing f o r the Grace Cathedral;
t h a t was designed and committed before my husband was i n the
f i e l d .
But Father Blank and Arnold Constable and m
y husband did
a l l s o r t s of things together, including St. Albert the Great.
And they a l s o did the Dominican n o v i t i a t e i n San Rafael, and--
Can you think? [turns t o speak t o B i l l Cummings who has joined
the interview]
HWC : 	 Was Mission San Jose p a r t of that?
VC : 	 Yes, Mission San Jose.
Riess: That name, Arnold Constable,
t e c t u r a l history.
doesn't appear i n Bay Area archi-
It should. He was regarded a s the f i n e s t Gothic a r c h i t e c t i n
t h i s p a r t of t h e country. He was trained i n England, and he
worked f i r s t i n Seattle, and the a r c h i t e c t f o r St. Dominic's was
a S e a t t l e firm, and he was the project designer on that. Well,
then when t h a t was complete and a smashing success, he moved down
here and established himself here, and, of course, he became
acquainted with Father Blank, who was t h e head of the Dominican
order. So the three men had a great time, did l o t s of things
together.
Riess : Are we talking about t h e t h i r t i e s ? Forties?
VC : NO, we're talking about l a t e r than t h a t . Let's see. Daddy and
I were--[speaking t o B i l l ] When did we g o . s e e Father Blank? ..
HWC : Fif ty-two ?
VC : Yes, i t was '52. Yes, it was i n your period.
Riess: Were there any touches of t h e modern a t a l l i n t h a t ,
purely Gothic?
or was i t
I n that group i t was p r e t t y s t r i c t l y Gothic. Father Blank was
devoted t o the Gothic period, and St. Albert the Great is a
Gothic church.
Riess: And yet you have j u s t described t o m
e the monsignor who had come
i n with r a d i c a l plans. You know, i t ' s probably the same time
period.
VC : Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t .
Riess: Both things could be happening.
VC : There a r e a s many d i f f e r e n t t a s t e s and d e s i r e s among the Catholic
priesthood a s there a r e among, say, Americans. They're a varied
l o t , a very varied l o t . You'll find them very varied.
Gothic Revivial, 1930s, 1940s
Riess: Do you think there were particularly conservative t a s t e s i n the
Bay Area?
HWC: Compared t o what?
Riess: Well, the premise of t h i s whole l i t u r g i c a l a r t s project is t h a t
some r e a l l y great changes were made i n the church l i t u r g y and
a l s o in church architecture and design here, but I ' m wondering
whether the Bay Area was r e a l l y i n t h e forefront.
VC : W e l l , you know, we were talking about faceted glass. That's
thing t h a t forced a f r e e r design, don't you think so, B i l l ?
one
HWC: Y e s , but I a l s o think t h a t the Gothic revival building i n t h e
t h i r t i e s and f o r t i e s i n California was an avant-garde type of
thing t o do. It had passed its prime i n the East and certainly
was way past i n Europe, but i t was j u s t catching on here. So i t
depends on where you are.
Riess: Oh, t h a t ' s a very i n t e r e s t i n g thought, yes.
HWC: I s n ' t t h a t right?
Riess: It's avant-garde, but i t ' s t e r r i b l y safe, on the other hand.
HWC: Oh, it wasn't s a f e a t a l l . I can remember reading Dad's letters
i n our f i l e s t o the Presbyterian church on Fillmore and Jackson,
and they had Tiffany-style picture windows.
VC : But we didn't do them.
HWC: No, we didn't do them, but Dad was trying t o get t h a t commission
early on, and he was talking t o them about doing a new type of
-
window, i n t h e l a t e twenties, one which would be r e a l l y wonderful
f o r t h a t building, and t h a t was the Gothic window. And they were.
a f r a i d t o do it.
Riess: But they were comfortable with a r t nouveau,
very i n t e r e s t i n g t o think about that.
a r t glass. That's
HWC: I s n ' t t h a t r i g h t , Mom?
VC : I think you know more about t h a t than I do. [laughter]
HWC: The Gothic revival r e a l l y s t a r t e d i n the e a r l y 1800s i n Europe.
And so i n early stained glass i n America, you find the windows
i n New York City i n Brooklyn Heights, St. Anne and the Holy
Trinity Episcopal Church, where the William J. Bolton windows
are, having a very strong Gothic influence, and those windows
thereafter having a very strong Gothic influence. And then about
1875 the curtain f e l l l i k e the fog coming i n a t four-thirty, and
there was no more Gothic a r t . It was cut o f f , and it was cut
off before it r e a l l y developed. Aod so then the picture window
came i n , ran its course, and i n the t h i r t i e s , when Tiffany died,
t h a t was r e a l l y the end of t h a t school, and then a whole pro-
fusion of Gothic windows came, and i n a much more sophisticated
way.
VC : And t h a t ' s when Daddy got i n t o it.
Riess: I was reading California Design: 1910, and i t ' s about t h e a r t s
and c r a f t s movement here, the Matthews work, a r t nouveau s o r t of.
H
o
w did t h a t manifest i t s e l f i n church buildings, i n stained glass
windows ?
HWC: Significant work? [pauses] That reminds me of an a r t i c l e I saw
i n the [San Francisco] Chronicle one time of some Tiffany windows
a t Mare Island, and I came and I said, "Gee, did you see t h i s
a r t i c l e , Mom?" And she said, "Yes, did you l i k e i t ? " (Maybe
she's told t h i s t o you?)
Riess: No.
HWC: And I said, "yes, i t ' s interesting!'
your f a t h e r made those windows. I'
And she said, "You should;
VC : No, he made p a r t of it.
HWC: But the one t h a t was photographed was Dad's window.
VC : That 's r i g h t .
HWC: I n the Tiffany s t y l e .
VC : Of course,
[laughter]
they said nobody could make Tiffany windows but Tiffany.
And so t h a t ' s t h e way it worked out.
S t . Ignatius Church a t University of San Francisco was one
of Daddy's big commissions during t h i s period we're talking about.
It's a very big church, and t h a t was--
HWC : Nineteen thirty-eight .
VC : But it wasn't finished u n t i l 1963.
HWC: B u t t h a t b e g a n i n '38,
thing was beginning.
s o t h a t began justwhen t h i s w h o l e G o t h i c
VC : Those windows aren't quite Gothic though. They're
They're made f o r a Roman type of architecture.
more classic.
HWC: That kind of a building, yes.
R i e s s : I f you go back i n t o history and see a building t h a t took 200
years t o build, you see an evolution of s t y l e . From 1938 t o 1963,
would there be an evolution of s t y l e ?
VC : No. When you s t a r t out on a big job l i k e t h a t , you have an
iconography, and you know exactly what's going t o happen a l l
over, and you -
do t h a t t o unify the whole job.
Techniaue
Lucent Mosaic
VC : Then the chapel a t the University of the Pacific. That went on.
over a number of years actually. The two main windows i n t h a t
chapel were made by the studio q u i t e early, and they're beautiful
Gothic windows. One is a rose, which I consider one of the r e a l l y
great windows, and then the other is three lancets over the a l t a r ,
and those a r e made of lucent mosaic, which was an invention of m
y
husbandvs, and it was made with l i t t l e paint, and very f i n e pieces
of glass, and i t was c a s t i n a metal alloy. Those windows were
VC : 	 made f o r a great Methodist church t h a t was b u i l t i n San Francisco.
The building i t s e l f was a highrise and i t was a hotel, but i n
t h i s h o t e l was a great church, and these windows were made f o r
that.
A t the time of the Depression, the church l o s t the whole
building, but the windows s t i l l belonged t o m
y husband, because
there had been actually a mismanagement of funds; the funds t h a t
were given t o pay f o r t h e windows were used f o r something else.
So m
y husband was allowed t o take the windows out, and they were
stored i n boxes f o r a long time. But somebody remembered them
and asked i f a t l e a s t one of them couldn't be taken out f o r the
World's Fair a t Treasure Island, and t h i s awoke people t o the
f a c t t h a t they were there.
So when the chapel [ a t t h e University of the Pacific] was t o
be b u i l t , Mr. Parr--you know, of the old, h i s t o r i c Parr Terminal
family--was on the board f o r t h a t , and he asked i f the windows
were available t o use f o r a chapel. Then he spoke t o the archi-
t e c t , and the a r c h i t e c t said, "No way." So Mr. Parr said, "Well,
come down and have a look." And when the architect saw them, he
s a i d it would be an honor t o create a s e t t i n g f o r these windows.
So t h a t ' s what the University of the P a c i f i c Chapel is; i t ' s a
s e t t i n g f o r those windows.
Then i n the l a t t e r years, i n your period, you see, because
these things were stored f o r a long time, then i n order t o f i n i s h
t h i s chapel, the a i s l e windows and the triforium, the whole
thing, were made by the studio, and they're made i n t r a d i t i o n a l
stained glass. Okay? [speaking t o B i l l ]
HWC: hat's right.
VC : 	 Is t h a t r i g h t ?
HWC: 	 Interestingly enough, t h a t medium [lucent mosaic] had been seen
by a number of people, and I ' m finding t h a t medium from Atlanta
t o Boston, and i t never worked; nobody's ever been able t o figure
out what Dad did. It's very interesting. Windows t h a t a r e
buckling with six-inch buckles i n them. And people a r e saying,
"Do you know what t h a t is?" And I said, "Yes, I do know what
t h a t is." "Do you know how t o f i x i t ? " '"NO, I don't; not without
recasting." We've had some work t o do o n , t h e windows t h a t Dad
made, and they're f a i r l y easy t o repair, but the ones t h a t didn't
have the r i g h t alloy have not stood up well a t a l l .
Riess: 	 Well, I think i t would be nice t o hear more about the development
of the lucent mosaic.
VC : [under her breath t o B i l l ] You can t e l l .
Riess: I take it you're almost giving away secrets. [laughing]
HWC: No, not a t a l l . I don't think we have any secrets. [then, t o
h i s mother] You'll have t o f i l l i n f o r me, i n t h a t I wasn't
there. [then, t o interviewer] But a s I understand it, we had
been involved i n making mosaics f o r some years, and i n the
creation of mosaics, which a r e t e r r i b l y exciting--
Riess: This i s ceramic mosaics?
HWC:	 Regular ceramic mosaics, l i k e on a wall.
Riess : 	
Right.
HWC : 	 I n the creation of those, when you a l s o happen t o be a leaded-
glass o r a stained-glass person, you s t a r t envisioning what t h a t
mosaic might be l i k e i f l i g h t could be transmitted through i t ,
and t h a t g e t s t o be p r e t t y exciting. And s o Dad then s t a r t e d
taking h i s engineering background and putting it t o work and
trying t o see how i t could work.
R i e s s : 	 What a r e the problems?
HWC:	 Each piece of glass, varying i n its thickness and i t s color, has
a d i f f e r e n t coefficient of expansion and contraction. And inside
of a regular leaded-glass window, where it f i t s l i k e t h i s
[gesturing], t h a t glass has t h e opportunity t o expand and contract
l i k e t h i s , a s does the lead have the opportunity of expandifig and
contracting, inside of its own sleeve.
I n a mosaic, where you want very narrow l i n e s t o come up,
you c a s t it i n such a way where there is no overlap, s o that the
g l a s s is here [gesturing], and the metal goes from edge t o edge,
and there's no overlap. So you don't have t h a t opportunity f o r
movement, a s you can i n the other. So, i t ' s a very, very d e l i c a t e
balance t h a t has t o be done. And t h e process is a long and
involved process t h a t nobody can afford today. It's j u s t a very,
very costly process. The l a s t one we did I guess was at--. Is i t
St. Patrick's, down on Howard o r Mission? [speaking t o h i s mother]
When they had t h e f i r e ?
VC : 	 I think there's one round window down there.
HWC:	 They had a f i r e , and i t was destroyed, and we replaced t h a t i n
about '64 o r so? Sixty-five? And I think t h a t ' s the l a s t one
we did.
Riess: But t h e solution was i n the alloy?
HWC: Yes, i t ' s a lead alloy. It has a l l kinds of additives t o it.
VC : And not only t h a t , but i t had t o do with temperatures and things
of t h a t kind.
HWC:	 Most of the glass i n one of these pieces i s unpainted--and t h i s
whole thing leads on i n t o the development of faceted glass.
Most of it is unpainted. There a r e heads and hands specifically
which had painting on them, and i f you take a big piece l i k e that
and you pour a hot metal surrounding around it, it w i l l crack
the glass.
So you end up by developing a long metal t a b l e with gas
heat underneath. The t a b l e is heated t o reduce shock t o the
g l a s s when the a l l o y is poured. Then you put asbestos down--
i n the days when asbestos didn't hurt anybody--and then you
glue a l l the pieces of g l a s s t o the asbestos. What you're doing
is you're making a sandwich. And then you put a perimeter around
t h a t , and then you put another piece of asbestos on top of t h a t
so t h a t you now have a glass sandwich--as opposed t o Sandwich
glass. [chuckles]
Then you put holes i n the top a t d i f f e r e n t s t r a t e g i c
locations, and you make cones out of asbestos, and you glue
those cones on top of the holes. And then you have two pots.
One is p r e t t y much j u s t s t r a i g h t lead--it's a weight--and t h e
other is your alloy. And you heat them up. And what you r e a l l y
a r e doing is you're pouring the alloy i n through those funnels,
and it finds its way around, which is a l l well and good. But
as it does, it comes t o a spot and it'll s t a r t pushing the
asbestos up, so you'd have t o put a weight on top of the asbestos
s o t h a t it c a n ' t be pressed up. So you're putting lead on top
and a l l o y underneath, a l l a t t h e same time, keeping an equal
pressure. And you r e a l l y get down, and you blow on those things
once i n a while. It's a hot and time-consuming process.
VC : 	 Very few men can do it.
Riess: 	 And does it have t o be perfect, each pour? O r can you r e p a i r i t 2
HWC: 	 You can r e p a i r it. You t r y f o r perfection, of course, but you
can r e p a i r it.
Riess: 	 How about new resins and p l a s t i c s and things l i k e t h a t ?
HWC: Well, t h a t ' s a whole new subject which I guess I know a f a i r amount
about, and we can t a l k about that. But.basically the new resins,
9 f e e l i n g i s t h a t i t ' s going t o be proven t h a t they're not suc-
cessful. W
e use them. Particularly i n r e s t o r a t i v e work you have
t o be very careful about what r e s i n s a r e doing, because a l l
restorations must be reversible so you can bring the window back
t o the way it was when you found it, and r e s i n s don't allow you
t o do that very readily.
Riess: Interesting. You're saying t h a t nobody was a b l e t o master t h i s
on t h e East Coast? Is it a l s o t h a t there the temperature is a
problem?
HWC : I don't think so. I f you go around and look a t Cummings Studio's
windows from 1922 on out, one of the things t h a t Dad j u s t fought
f o r is structure. I f you took h i s windows apart and took a l l
of the aesthetics out of them they look l i k e a j a i l c e l l . I
mean he had them r e a l l y barred extremely well. And consequently,
h i s fifty-year-old windows a r e s t i l l in, and they a r e n ' t offering
us any new work, unfortunately. [laughing]
They're extremely w e l l manufactured. He was an engineer and
it showed a l l the way through. And when he went from t h a t , lucent
mosaic, i n t o faceted glass--which is a l o g i c a l progression, which
we can t a l k about i n a minute--again, w e l l , he has faceted glass
windows i n Waverly, Iowa; now, t h a t gets p r e t t y cold, and they're
doing j u s t fine, but nobody e l s e could make concrete work.
Faceted Glass
Riess: Gabriel Loire, i s n ' t he the person who s t a r t e d faceted glass?
HWC: No. Gabriel Loire i s -
not the person who s t a r t e d faceted glass.
Wait a second. [thinking] Labourett is a French a r t i s t who
s t a r t e d faceted glass i n the 1920s, '30s. I n t h e l a t e 30s,
Labourett i n s t a l l e d t h e f i r s t faceted glass i n North America a t
St. Anne de Beaupres, i n Quebec, Canada. He had an apprentice
who was then working f o r him who went off t o war and came back,
and a f t e r the war t h a t apprentice designed windows f o r Labourett,
and they were then shipped t o St. Anne de Beaupres is Canada,
and the church was finished. About t h a t time Dad saw the
windows, and t h a t ' s where he said, "That's the next logical
step," and he s t a r t e d working on it. The designer of those
windows f o r Labourett was a man named Robert Pinart.
VC : And he works with B i l l now.
Riess: That stretches way back, doesn't i t ?
HWC: Ididn'tknowthatuntiltwoyears ago.
Riess: Really?
HWC : Yes.
VC : He's been designing windows f o r
fresh and great.
a long time, and he's s t i l l very
Riess: Did you take tours of those wonderful European churches,
Matisse chapel and so on?
the
VC : Well, we d i d n ' t go t o the Matisse chapel, but we certainly did a
l o t of both t h e contemporary and the old windows, yes. B i l l
studied in France f o r a while, and he knows more about them than
I do.
Riess: But a f t e r you went t o France and looked a t t h a t , did t h a t
some changes i n the studio when you got back? Was t h a t a
of inspiration?
mean
source
VC : Well, without doubt everything t h a t you do is, you know; the
whole process is a process of becoming, i s n ' t i t ? Continually.
The Client-Studio Relationship
Riess: Something t h a t you brought up e a r l i e r , the question of whether
you have a resident designer i n t h e studio, o r whether you go
out and seek somebody t o f i l l a p a r t i c u l a r need, perhaps a f t e r
you had come back from France you might have been more inclined
t o go out and bring people i n t o design things f o r the studio?
VC : No, I think not. And I think t h a t the French studios were very
t i g h t . Don't you? [speaking t o B i l l ] And t h e i r setup was very
much l i k e ours. Actually, I think t h a t it was the young thought
of our own young people, you know, the f r e e r thought of our own
young people, who brought t h e other designers in. It was B i l l
and John.
HWC: John r e a l l y s t a r t e d the whole idea of t h a t system, which is a
very German school. The bigger German studios work that way
and have f o r years. And John s t a r t e d that around 1964, something
l i k e t h a t , and we're continuing t h a t today.
VC : And the people who worked during t h a t time we were saying were
Kepes and Sowers and P i n a r t and Hilda Sachs.
HWC: MarkAdams?
VC : Mark Adams, we have that.
Riess: Which one did you work on with Mark Adams?
VC : The only. one I can think of now is something t h a t was called
White Rose," and i t was an exhibition piece.
"A
HWC: There's a l s o a Catholic church i n Napa I believe.
when I was not there, but I think so.
That w a s
Riess: What is the usual order t o business? It would be the p r i e s t who
would be the c l i e n t , o r t h e architect? What's t h e client-studio
relationship?
HWC: What year? Because with Vatican I1 a great deal changed.
Riess: Okay. Well, t h a t ' s exactly t h e kind of question I ' m asking, yes.
HWC: The best jobs t h a t we have done h i s t o r i c a l l y and today r e a l l y
begin with the architect, or i f they don't begin with the archi-
t e c t , they revolve around the architect, where you're r e a l l y
playing hand i n hand with one another and making t h e spaces work
together, because i t ' s an a r c h i t e c t u r a l problem.
In the Catholic Church, before Vatican 11, you were working
with the p r i e s t . I n many ways t h a t was a r e a l l y ideal way t o
work because i t was very f a s t . The p r i e s t looked, he liked it
o r he didn't l i k e it, you'd make t h e changes, the committee was
very easy t o get ahold of, you made one c a l l and you had the
whole committee together, and things went together. I n some
cases, when you had a p r i e s t who was very, very creative, I
think you came out with churches t h a t were very 5ree and lovely.
But so many p r i e s t s a r e not trained i n t h e v i s u a l a r t s I think,
and sometimes i t was not as good a s it could have been.
Riess: Perhaps the p r i e s t is competing f o r the same sum of money t h a t ' s
going i n t o t h e window. Since windows a r e major donations, a r e n ' t
they usually, from parishioners, i n honor of something, maybe
t h e p r i e s t has some ambivalence about $5,000 going i n on that--.
HWC: The p r i e s t has always been very supportive of windows. Well,
not always, but I mean the p r i e s t has been supportive of windows
and supportive of money going i n t o windows. It's a source of
HWC : income for him sometimes; sometimes he gets something not from
us but he charges the church more o r whatever. W
e don't know
a l l about those things.
Riess: The very idea!
HWC: Oh, t h a t happens today I know; I don't know historically. I
thought it was j u s t one p a r t i c u l a r religion, but it's not.
There a r e some churches t h a t w i l l charge t h e i r donors twice what
the window cost them. This creates maintenance money.
Riess: But you're saying t h a t i n some ways i t can be i d e a l t o work with
a strong p r i e s t .
HWC: From a cost point of view i t ' s much more expeditious certainly t o
do it. But since Vatican 11, where the l a i t y got much more in-
volved, it varies a l l over the ballpark now within the Catholic
Church. There a r e some p r i e s t s t h a t s t i l l make a l l of t h e i r own
decisions, and there're some p r i e s t s t h a t don't know when they
wake u p ' i n the morning; t h a t ' s done by committee. So i t goes
a l l over the ballpark.
The Protestant churches--I guess a s they always have been--
have t h e i r own kind of democracy, and i t ranges from one church
t o the other. And I think each denomination a l s o buys a d i f f e r e n t
kind of window; they have a d i f f e r e n t theology and a d i f f e r e n t
a e s t h e t i c sense because they think differently.
So t r a d i t i o n a l l y we have done a l o t of Episcopal work, a l o t
of Methodist work, a l o t of Lutheran work, not a l o t of fundamental
work-Foursquare Gospel o r Southern Baptist, not much of that.
Most of the Catholic churches t h a t we've done tend t o be the bigger
ones.
VC : And t h e i n s t i t u t i o n a l ones.
HWC: Loyola.
VC : Like St. Albert the Great, which is actually the chapel f o r the
college where the p r i e s t s a r e trained.
HWC: Holy Names.
VC : And Holy Names, yes.
HWC: St. Ignatius.
VC : Yes.
HWC:	 Dominican College. And the orders; we've done a l o t of business 

with the orders. 

Riess: 	 But business is e s s e n t i a l l y with the a r c h i t e c t ? O r do you end up
going back and doing presentations t o committees and to-- [he
indicates they do] You do? The committee things.
HWC:	 Oh, yes. The educative p a r t of i t i s probably the biggest part.
The d i f f i c u l t y is, and I think i t ' s more so today than it was
t h i r t y years ago-- Thirty years ago or f o r t y years ago, i f you
picked up the phone book i n San Francisco and looked up under
Glass--Stained and Leaded, you found three of us? Four of us3
VC : 	 Yes.
HWC:	 Not many. And now you'd probably find seventy-five. So i t ' s very
d i f f i c u l t t o know what's what; anybody can put t h e i r name i n there.
So I think the c l i e n t s tend t o be much more leery now than they
used t o be. And I think r i g h t f u l l y so; I think t h a t ' s f i n e , and
they should be. But it means t h a t a s a studio.you need t o be
much more patient i n going through t h e educative process with
them, and assume t h a t i f you have a product t h a t can stand the
t e s t of time t h a t the longer they spend looking, the b e t t e r off
you are.
Riess: 	 But i t ' s t h e a r c h i t e c t who's come t o you i n the f i r s t place.
HWC: 	 It used t o be more of a guarantee than it i s now. There used t o
be church a r c h i t e c t s ; you're finding t h a t I ' m sure.
R i e s s : 	 Paul Ryan, f o r example.
HWC:	 Okay,yes. Therewere l o t s of a r c h i t e c t s t h a t w e r e churcharchi-
t e c t s i n the f i f t i e s and i n the early s i x t i e s , and then the
church backed off its building program and the s t a t e backed off
its educational program, and very often church a r c h i t e c t s y o u ' l l
find were a l s o educational architects. A l l of a sudden c l i e n t s
s t a r t e d going everywhere f o r architects. So now there's hardly
such a thing a s a church architect. So t o have repeat business
coming t o you again and again from t h e same architect i s not
nearly a s prevalent today a s it once was.
Bay Area Stained Glass Companies, Church A r t Catalogues
Riess: What were the other three names i n the phone book besides Cummings,
forty years ago?
HWC: The ones t h a t didn't count. [laughing]
Riess: That's r i g h t . [laughing] The ones t h a t we passed over quickly.
HWC: Let's see. Church A r t Glass?
VC : Yes.
HWC: And Century?
VC : Yes.
HWC: And Dombrink.
VC : Hunecke.
HWC: Hunecke owned Century, didn't he?
VC : I guess t h a t was it.
HWC: And Church A r t Glass was John Lucas. And Dombrink was i n Oakland.
And those a r e r e a l l y the three, and they did the more fundamental
work, generally speaking. W
e tended t o do the higher end.
R i e s s : I don't understand t h a t distinction. This is not a religious
d i s t i n c t i o n anymore between "fundamental" and "higher end."
[laughing ]
HWC: Oh, excuse me. I switched i n the middle of a sentence. W
e tended
t o do more expensive work, requiring b e t t e r trained craftsmen and
a r t i s t s .
Riess: I see.
VC : How about a cup of tea?
Riess: When i t gets t o the end of t h i s side, okay?
VC : Okay.
Riess: That would be very nice.
Riess: I ' d l i k e t o develop t h a t point you're making, that you were the
studio of choice f o r anyone with money o r t a s t e , is t h a t what
you 'r e saying?
HWC: I think t h a t y o u ' l l find t h a t t h a t ' s true.
Riess: And what about the p o s s i b i l i t i e s of ordering by church a r t
catalogues?
HWC: W
e never got involved i n t h a t .
Riess: I do think t h a t there a r e even recent examples of church a r t being
ordered from catalogues.
HWC: That's not peculiar t o the Bay Area.
VC : Oh no, not a t a l l .
HWC: That's peculiar t o people's buying i n s t i n c t . I f i n a Catholic
goods catalogue, one can see a picture of an ugly candelabra
and i t says $4.98 on it, and one can get s i x of them f o r $2.98
apiece, he thinks t h a t ' s something t h a t the Catholic Church must
endorse, i f it's i n there. And I don't mean the Catholic Church
does so, but there's something t h a t makes it have a l o t of
c r e d i b i l i t y i n the eyes of the purchaser.
And I don't think t h a t t h a t ' s work t h a t we're going t o get
anyway. Those people a r e primarily people t h a t a r e buying by
the d o l l a r ; they're going t o buy whatever they can get f o r the
l e a s t amount of money. So I r e a l l y don't think t h a t the church
catalogue is a t h r e a t t o Cummings Studios. There a r e people that
need t o buy t h a t kind of work, t h a t ' s the only thing they -
can buy.
I think it's unfortunate t h a t church catalogues don't have
b e t t e r work. I think t h a t it shouldn't cost t h a t much money
necessarily, but f o r some reason good a r t f a i l s t o get i n
catalogues. W
e have talked, i n the l a s t f i f t e e n years I know,
t o several church catalogue people about changing designs,
changing concepts, but t h a t doesn't happen. So a higher
a e s t h e t i c is a whole ballpark that we stay away from.
Faceted Glass and Light
Riess: I was t e l l i n g your mother about the Catholic A r t Forum. I don't
know whether you actually know of t h a t a s an organization, but
i t s t a r t e d i n 1952, and there was an exhibition of religious
Riess : a r t a t t h e de Young Museum, and Mark Adams contributed some
things, and Dirk Van Erp,
designers.
and a l o t o f , you know, r e a l l y good
VC : That probably was when the l i g h t i n g f i x t u r e from o
Church of Christ, S c i e n t i s t , Belvedere was p a r t of
ur F i r s t
t h a t exhibit.
HWC: It should have been, i f i t wasn't.
VC : It was; i t was there f o r a month.
HWC : 	 Excuse me f o r interrupting, did you go over the f a c t t h a t St.
Stephen's is the f i r s t faceted glass commission i n the United
States, by an American?
R i e s s : 	
No, we've been going i n so many directions t h a t we have t o follow
through with something.
HWC : 	 Yes, it j u s t occurred t o m
e when you said Belvedere. St. Stephen's
Episcopal Church here i n Belvedere i s the f i r s t faceted glass
commission done by an American. It was done i n 1954.
Riess : 	So a f t e r the church i n Quebec--
HWC : 	 European work continued t o be sent i n , but the Americans s t a r t e d
r e a l l y working on it. And i n 1954, Dad was the f i r s t American
t o have a commission i n faceted glass, and t h a t was a t St.
Stephen's Church. Right a f t e r t h a t Willet and Conrad Schmidt
came out with commissions, but everybody recognizes t h a t t h a t St.
Stephen's was the very f i r s t one.
Interestingly enough, these early stained glass windows were
a l l i n concrete. Other studios had t r a g i c r e s u l t s ; Dad's work is
s t i l l there. W
e continued using concrete u n t i l 1970. Concrete
is a wonderful material. It's hard t o sell people on i t , but
i t ' s a wonderful material.
Riess : 	
Hard t o s e l l them because of the r a t e of f a i l u r e ?
mc: 	 No, because of the public's concept of it.
R i e s s : 	 Gosh, I think t h a t ' s s o much the California church now--concrete.
mc: 	 The thing is, when you get within the industry, the industry has
had l i t t l e success with concrete, and therefore they have switched
t o epoxies. They have used epoxies, and there have been f a i l u r e s
i n t h a t , and we can go on i n t o that, but--
Riess: 	 Oh, a l l right. You're j u s t talking about the s e t t i n g f o r the glass?
HWC: Yes.
Riess: Oh, I see.
HWC: Faceted glass, by definition, excuse me,
s e t i n concrete, o r epoxy resin.
is an inch thick glass
Riess: When you were talking about concrete I was j u s t thinking of t h e
use of concrete a s the building material.
Charles Warren C a l l i s t e r said about the windows i n the church
i n Belvedere [reading]: "Pat .[Cummings] was a wonderful man, a
very inspired person. He would experiment with the d i f f e r e n t
kinds of lead. I took Arthur Stern over there the other day...
I s a i d t h a t Pat Cummings had learned t h a t with very narrow slits
of glass the l i g h t bent around the very wide leads and made them
seem much narrower on the inside of the church than they do on
the out."
o r
I wondered i f t h i s is describing something t h a t ' s significant
i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t we should get your point of view on.
HWC: He's talking about halation.
preparing t e a ]
[Vivian Cummings is out of t h e room,
Light comes through glass and it goes l i k e t h i s . [gesturing]
I n Violet l e Ducts translation of Theopolis's work of the 1200s,
about making of windows, he t a l k s about halation i n there. The
idea though i s t h a t on reds, a s you get distance from it, a red
w i l l get more intense i n color and smaller i n size. A blue w i l l
wash out i n color and w i l l expand i n size.
Now, they spent a l o t of time talking about that. I n actu-
a l i t y , t h a t ' s subject t o some dispute t o some degree, but there
can be no question about halation i n general, the f a c t that, well,
when you look even here [gesturing toward a c l e a r glass window],
you s t a r t t o see a glow around the windows, and with c e r t a i n
colors you see it more than you do with others. And i n faceted
glass, i t ' s unbelievable. Dad used t o say you can't have any more
than 33 percent g l a s s i n a faceted glass window, o r you l o s e its
gut; t h e space, t h e negative space is very, very important.
So the halation is r e a l l y , r e a l l y important. I think t h a t
Dad followed t h a t extensively, and I never understood why other
stained-glass a r t i s t s d i d n v t , because it seems s o natural t o me.
Riess: You mean he took advantage of h i s understanding--
HWC: 	 Of theunderstanding.of whathalation i s doing.andwhy. It.'s
not the f a c t t h a t i t ' s a big, inch-and-a-half lead; i t ' s the
space t h a t it puts i n between. It's l i k e Mozart said, you know,
the black space, the negative space is what's important, t h e
quietness between spots is very important. And t h i s is the same
thing; i t gives yourself a chance t o rest and then i t c r i s p s up
what you're looking a t .
For instance, i f you have a piece of blue glass and a piece
of red glass side by side, with j u s t a very narrow slit i n
between, and i f you w i l l give it enough distance--say t h i s is
blue and t h i s is red [gesturing]--you'll see a t h i n film of v i o l e t
coming down l i k e t h i s .
R i e s s : 	 Did your father know the color theory p a r t of i t instinctively, o r
by study?
HWC:	 Oh, t h e r e ' r e books on it, but the best way t o do i t is t o do it.
-
I think, and I don't know how M
o
m f e e l s about t h i s , I think t h a t
Dad was number one an engineer, and number two he was a c o l o r i s t ;
he was a tremendous c o l o r i s t . Excellent colorist. Really under-
stood what was happening i n glass, j u s t r e a l l y very, very good
a t it, and I ' m discovering t h a t a s I go on, what a good c o l o r i s t
he was.
But I think, i n defense of other stained-glass a r t i s t s from
around t h e country, you don't deal with t h e quantity of l i g h t
t h a t you do i n California when you're i n New England. And because
of t h a t , halation doesn't play a s big a r o l e i n windows i n New
England a s i t does i n California.
Also, the character of the geography. A t a l l mountain i n
Massachusetts, say, would be 3,400 f e e t ; w e l l , 3,400 f e e t is
scarcely t a l l e r than M t . Tamalpais. So California tends t o be
a s t a t e of greater contrasts. Death Valley t o M t . Whitney. Hot
t o cold. Skiing t o surfing. A l l i n the same day. Spring
flowers t o desert. Whatever contrast you want t o give. I j u s t
l e f t San Diego t h i s morning and i t w a s bright and sunny, and I
came up here and it was almost raining. And t h a t ' s what we a r e
as a s t a t e . So our windows and our a r t forms, I think, very
often take on that same kind of character, although i n recent
years i t has not. There's been much more of a d r i f t towards
t h e very subtle and grayed tones, which has been a rather
nationwide trend.
The Designer-Studio Relationship
Riess: What was your job i n the studio?
you were always there.
[speaking t o VC] It sounds l i k e
VC : [laughing] Well-- [pauses t o think] It's a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t .
Sometimes I ran the o f f i c e , and I was Daddy's ghost w r i t e r ; I
wrote f o r , you know, magazines and t h a t s o r t of thing. And what-
ever needed t o be done, you know. I was not involved i n fabrica-
t i o n a t a l l . I said I ' d l i k e t o learn, and m
y husband said,
"Never. "
Riess: Why?
VC : He didn't want any interference, and he thought t h a t , you know,
i f I thought t h a t I knew I might say; he j u s t wanted t o keep the
decisions where the decisions should have been made.
Riess: Well, then, how did he work with h i s designers?
VC : Oh, I never-- No, no, no.
Riess: Well, no, I ' m not asking t h e question r i g h t .
HWC: I think t h a t t h e question, a s I understand your question, is did
h i s feeling of wanting t o have t h a t control i n t e r f e r e with h i s
relationship with h i s a r t i s t s ?
VC : Oh. I don't think t h e r e ' s any doubt but what i n any a r t i s t i c
venture.therelre differences. Now, B i l l has worked t h i s out
b e t t e r than anybody I know--and I know the country so f a r a s
stained glass is concerned p r e t t y well, I think--and B i l l has
great respect f o r h i s designers and a t the same time he holds
the reins, he makes the decisions, and he has t o because he's
the person who's responsible.
a
HWC: I n the t r a d i t i o n a l studio setup,
relationship.
it has always been an adversarial
VC : Between the designer and the studio owner.
HWC: The designer and the studio owner. I think i t ' s by design an
adversarial relationship and it's one of great delicacy. The
way we're s e t up now, I ' m very c l e a r about it. Through accident--
nothing is planned i n my life--but through accident I happen t o
be a musician, and I ' m interested i n performing the work of Bach
and Beethoven and Mozart and Brahms and whoever, and I l i k e
HWC: 	 performing it the way they wanted it performed. So our studio is
the "orchestra,'' and I am the conductor, and our designers a r e
the composers, and there's very clear delineation, and we a l l need
one another, and we a l l r e l y on each other t o do our jobs.
Riess: Well, i f you're the conductor, then you're working i n the service
of your designers is what you're saying.
HWC: That's r i g h t , t h a t ' s r i g h t .
Riess : W e l l , then, where 's t h e control?
HWC: Where's the control?
Riess: Yes.
HWC: As f a r as--? I don't want t o have control over a designer.
Riess: Okay. You say it's adversarial.
HWC:	 No, I ' m saying t h a t i n order t o get around the adversarial rela-
tionship, we have s e t up our studio s i t u a t i o n so that there is
not an adversarial relationship i n our studio.
R i e s s : 	 I see.
VC : 	 A t the same time you do have the veto.
HWC: 	 Yes, we h i r e . , I mean the orchestra h i r e s the composer, doesn't
i t ?
Riess: Yes.
HWC: I f you don't l i k e the composerLswork, you don't work with the
composer, I guess, do you?
Riess: Yes, r i g h t .
HWC: And you don't work with somebody t h a t you don't respect.
But our job i n going out and talking with a client--it's so
easy t o sit down and drink a l i t t l e t e a and take some notes and
say, ''Yes, we're going t o do a window of Mary and a window of
Jesus" and a window of whatever, and it's going t o be this way
and t h i s way and t h i s way, and come home and give it t o your
designer and say, "Itrs going t o be l i k e that," and your designer
s t a r t s out with t h e i r hands tied.
HWC: Sowe s t a r t out by saying,"Let'snottalkaboutMary andJoseph
and Jesus and a l l of that. L e t ' s t a l k about what i t is t h a t we're
r e a l l y saying, i n abstract t e r m s , and what t h i s building is saying,
and then l e t ' s choose a designer, and l e t ' s come t o t h a t designer
and give t h a t designer a s much f r e e r e i n as we can possibly give
him." And t h a t ' s m
y role, t o run guard f o r the designer.
VC : But you're i n control.
HWC: Y e s . I f a d e s i g n c o m e s b a c k , a n d Ithinkthedesignmissesthe
mark, 1'11 say, "Susan, t h i s doesn't work f o r me. T e l l me what
makes i t work." And sometimes y o u ' l l convince me t h a t it does
work; t h e r e ' s something I didn't remember i n the building o r what-
ever. And sometimes y o u ' l l say, "I think you're right," and y o u ' l l
redesign i t .
But i t i s n ' t a d i c t a t o r i a l thing a t a l l . We're a l l shooting
f o r the same thing, I.hope, or shooting f o r a great window f o r
t h a t p a r t i c u l a r church o r corporate building or whatever it is.
R i e s s : It's s u b t l e though; I mean i f you tend t o s t a r t visualizing
things as soon as people s t a r t talking t o you, why, i t ' s hard
keep t h a t kind of tabula rasa.
t o
HWC: Well, I t r y t o keep on going back t o the vague. I r e a l l y t r y to.
I think when we get down t o very s p e c i f i c terms i n talking about
what your windows a r e going t o look l i k e , I think, "Why h i r e a
designer?"
Changes
Educating the Client's Taste
R i e s s : When you were talking twenty years ago t o people who wanted windows
f o r churches, when you got i n t o faceted glass, did t h a t j u s t by
d e f i n i t i o n mean t h a t t h e windows were going t o be abstract color
symphonies, and no longer--
VC : But they'd have t o be more conventionalized.
Riess: So you were doing conventionalized faceted glass?
VC : Oh, yes. And abstractions.
HWC: 	 Actually, these windows a t St. Stephen's were abstract, but most
of the early windows a r e of symbols o r figures.-.
VC : 	 And t h a t ' s a l l t h a t would be'accepted a t that t i m e . You know,
it takes a long time f o r , say, t h e public t o be brought t o the
point where they're receptive t o abstract design.
Riess: 	 Can you remember any great breakthroughs i n public t a s t e o r i n
your c l i e n t s 1 t a s t e ?
VC : Well, the one I think of f i r s t i s a very old one, and i t ' s not i n
your period of time, but when the Robert Dollar window was made
[San Rafael Presbyterian Church], there was a committee who came
t o my husband and said, "Captain Robert Dollar has passed on, and
we want t o do t h i s window, and the openings a r e three windows l i k e
t h i s [gesturing] with tracery on t h e top. W
e want a l l of t h a t t o
be taken out and have a beautiful b i g window and a nice ship f o r
Captain Robert Dollar. l1
So m
y husband said, "Why, c e r t a i n l y you can do t h a t , but -
I
won't do it."
And they said, "Oh yes, we 've decided you1re going t o do it. "
M
y husband said, "I wouldnlt be guilty."
So they said, you know, "Why?"
So he said, " W e l l , i n t h e f i r s t place i t ' s bad manners i n
stained glass; I j u s t couldn't possibly be involved i n t h a t s o r t
of thing. l'
"Well,1' they said, ' m a t could you be involved in?"
So he talked t o them f i r s t about respecting the architecture
and whatnot, and working i n symbols r a t h e r than in, you know, the
p i c t u r e window s o r t of thing. So they f i n a l l y decided that he
could do it. So he did the two, the Captain Robert Dollar window,
and then l a t e r when Harold Dollar died he did t h a t one.
The pastor of the church--who was a marvelous old Scot, j u s t
a wonderful man--his church sent him around t h e world a s a s o r t
of bonus, sent him and h i s wife. When they came back--of course,
they'd v i s i t e d the great cathedrals of Europe--Pat said, "Now,
t e l l me, now t h a t you've seen some of the great old medieval
wonders, what do you think?" And they said, "First, I ' d l i k e t o
say, thank God you didn't l e t us do what we wanted t o do." So
t h a t was a breakthrough.
VC : 	 And then when St. Ignatius w a s beginning on t h e i r big window
program, of course, you know, they were q u i t e sure t h a t there
wasn't a good stained-glass man i n San Francisco, so they asked
nine eastern firms t o submit sketches, and they did, and i t j u s t
l e d t o confusion, and they didn't l i k e any of it. So they wrote
t o the e d i t o r [Maurice Lavanoux] of Liturgical A r t s magazine and
said, "What do you suggest?" And he said, "I suggest Cummings
Studio i n San Francisco."
So they called Pat, and they said, "Here we have these nine
sketches, would you l i k e t o see them?"
And he said, "I certainly would not." So he said t h a t he'd
l i k e t o show them what he could do by taking them t o some jobs
t h a t he had done close a t hand. So then he was awarded t h e
contract, and went ahead and did t h a t over a period of years.
Riess: 	 That's a good story.
HWC:	 Did you speak about the Poor Clares Monastery i n Los Altos?
Riess: 	 No.
HWC:	 That is a t i n y job, but t h a t i s a beautiful job.
VC : 	 What is t h a t , B i l l ?
HWC:	 The Poor Clares.
VC : 	 Oh yes.
HWC: A r e a l l y beautiful, beautiful job. The windows a r e t h a t big.
[gesturing] They're tiny. [12" x 14"] They're the fourteen
s t a t i o n s of the cross, but they a r e exquisitely done.
VC : 	 They're a closed order, and you never see t h e s i s t e r s when you
go up. W
e drove up one time and they were working i n t h e f i e l d s ,
you know, with t h e i r hands, and t h e i r long robes and whatnot.
When they saw us, they looked up l i k e , well, frightened things,
and ran, and we never saw them again.
However, we had been invited up. W
e didn't see anybody; w e
didn't even see the person who would know us. W
e talked through
a screen, and the person said, "Now, i n a moment I'll unlock the
door and you can go in." But except f o r those people who were
working i n the f i e l d , we never saw anybody.
Riess : 	
Who brought t h a t commission t o you? Who designed i t ?
VC'
:	 I don't remember.
mc: 	 Bob Halbrook, I think, designed it.
,VC : Bob Halbrook, yes, probably.
mc: 	 You don't go a s f a r a s Sacramento, do you?
Riess: 	 Oh, I ' d l i k e t o have you say whatever i t i s t h a t you want t o say.
mc: 	 The St. Philomene's there has those beautiful s t a t i o n s of the
cross. They're i n mosaic, but i t ' s a very unique use of mosaic,
very unique, and they a r e beautiful. They're some of m
y favorites.
Again, they a r e n ' t t e r r i b l y b i g [la" x 24"]; they're t h i s wide and
t h i s t a l l . [gesturing] They a l s o have stained glass windows, but
the church is very dark, and so a l o t of gold tesserae was used
i n the mosaics t o catch l i g h t and glisten.
Riess: 	
And Cumings did that?
Yes.
Well, they did the windaws f i r s t , and then by the time t h a t was
finished, of course, they were very good friends, and m
y husband
said, "Now, I hope t o heavens t h a t you don't order your s t a t i o n s
of t h e cross from a catalogue or go down here t o t h i s l i t t l e
Catholic goods s t o r e and buy them, but, r e a l l y , have them custom
made and have them j u s t right." So the p r i e s t said, "Well,
would you do them?" And so he said yes, he would.
And t h a t ' s another case where t h e architect.was very supportive
of us.
Riess: An a r c h i t e c t l i k e Paul Ryan,
i n with a drawing f o r you t o
whole design r i g h t through.
I have the impression he would
execute; he would have thought
come
the
HWC : The design of the window?
Riess: Yes.
HWC : 	 That wouldn't be t r u e i n our studio. In the period that you're
talking about, we would not have worked t h a t way, and very few
a r c h i t e c t s do work t h a t way. I n ra~-lifetime, I can only think of
one a r c h i t e c t ' s windows whose sketches we've fabricated. [then,
speaking t o mother] How many windows have been designed by
a r c h i t e c t s ?
VC : 	 Generally speaking, t h e i r training doesn't include the supportive
a r t s , and they don't understand the medium and whst's possible.
HWC: 	 Todayyou'reinadifferentsituationbecausethe f i e l d i s n o t a s
strong and not a s well respected a s it used t o be, and so i t may
be t h a t an a r c h i t e c t comes i n with a design and you have t o r e a l l y
t r y t o do your best, but the fabrication of t h a t design w i l l
usually cost more than one where we supply the designer, because
i n order t o r e a l i z e t h a t design, we have t o h i r e a designer t h a t
can then i n t e r p r e t t h a t , and i t takes longer t o i n t e r p r e t that
design than it does t o s t a r t off from scratch.
Experimentation
Riess: 	 I n L i t u r g i c a l A r t s magazine [Vol. 20, Nov. 19511, there was an
a r t i c l e about a "prototype church." The prototype church was a
l i t t l e round church, and i t had some g l a s s walls, and i t was t o
be on a corner and accessible t o the public and the inside was
t o be v i s i b l e from the outside, and there was t o be a l o t of use
of painting on glass.
VC : 	 Oh. [said with recognition]
Riess : 	
Jean Labatut was the a r c h i t e c t . ~ n d r g
Girard, who a l s o worked ' on
St. Ann's Chapel i n Palo Alto, was the a r t i s t .
VC : L e t ' s see, was St. Mark's i n Palo Alto t h e one t h a t had the--
[speaking t o B i l l ]
HWC: 	 A l l Saints Episcopal Church.
VC : 	 A l l Saints. A l l Saints i n Palo Alto i s a job t h a t you might enjoy
seeing sometime.
HWC: 	 Done i n 1968.
VC : And t h a t was designed by Garwood?
HWC: Correct. Done i n 1 9 6 8 and t h e b u i l d i n g designedby B i l l IWilliarn]
Garwood. A magnificent piece of architecture, and a stunning
piece of glass by Robert Sowers. It goes over your head; it's
about s i x f e e t wide and 105 f e e t long, and it forms a cross. The
three of us could walk up and down on top of it.
Riess: Amazing. What kind of glass was t h a t ?
HWC : 	 Basically faceted glass, or inch thick glass s e t i n three inches 

of concrete. 

Riess: 	 I was interested i n whether t h i s prototype church, jumping back
t o Andre Girard's work, had any influence on anybody.
HWC : 	 I remember when that church was done, and i t must have been the
mid-fifties. I can't remember i f we're talking about the same
church.
Riess: 	 Well, t h i s thing I thought of was j u s t a l a b project.
HWC : 	 A t any r a t e , there was a church done i n the Menlo Park-Palo Alto
area. They were not windows t h a t came down t o the ground; they
were clerestory, I think, i n elevation. And it was a French
man, o r two French men, t h a t came i n and painted t h e windows i n
place--remember t h a t , with a l l the enamels?
VC : 	 Yes, I remember we were shocked.
Hwc : 	 And Dad said, "Ten years."
VC : 	 Because the enamels peel o f f .
HWC : 	 And they're s t i l l there, but they s t a r t e d peeling i n about three
o r four years. They're i n t e r r i b l e shape. They'll never stand
up. There's nothing you can do about them.
Riess : 	
So there's no applied color a t a l l ever i n stained glass work.
HWC : 	 Well, t h e r e ' s applied color, but i t ' s f i r e d in.
VC : 	 The paint i t s e l f , the so-called paint i t s e l f , is actually a finely
ground glass, s o t h a t it fuses with the g l a s s and is a t one with
it. W
e never used enamels. The color was always i n t h e glass.
HWC : 	 In the nineteenth-century windows, and we don't have a l o t of
nineteenth-century windows i n t h i s area, i n nineteenth-century
g l a s s , by and large, e i t h e r they were putting too much borax i n
the paint i n order t o make it f i r e a t a lower temperature--and
t h a t seemed good a t the time, but a hundred years l a t e r we're
finding t h a t t h a t was too much flux and i t ' s beginning t o come
off--or they simply f i r e d i t a t a lower temperature and it never
got a very good f i r e , and we're having big paint consolidation
problems with nineteenth-century windows. It's a very signifi-
cant problem t h a t t h i s country has t o face, and there's no r e a l
concrete solution on t h a t yet. There're only two studios t h a t
I know t h a t a r e working on i t very hard.
Riess: Is yours one of them?
HWC: Yes, we're pretty well respected f o r restoration.
Riess: What would you say were the greatest a r t i s t i c influences on your
husband?
VC : Well, I suppose, t o begin with, h i s family was a creative family.
Riess: Were they from San Francisco?
VC : No, they were an Iowa family. And h i s mother did o i l paints, and
h i s whole family was a creative family. I don't know. H
o
w would
you answer t h a t , B i l l ?
HWC: I ' d s a y t h a t t h e G o t h i c period is absolutelythemostfundamental
influence on him.
VC : Yes.
HWC: Even i n h i s contemporary work t h a t he was doing a t the very l a s t ,
you could s t i l l find very strong Gothic traces i n h i s work. It's
hard t o look a t any of h i s windows and not find very strong Gothic
tendencies. And by Gothic I mean p a r t i c u l a r l y i n painting, h i s
whole approach t o painting. Dad didn't do the painting, but h i s
p a i n t e r s painted the way he wanted them t o paint. H i s whole
approach t o painting is very unique, and the more I get around
and see other studios, the more unique I see it is, and it's very
Gothic, extremely Gothic, and i t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g because it's a
West Coast Gothic i n style. W
e were talking e a r l i e r about the
strength of California, t h e contrast of California, and h i s
figures a r e very strong and very angular and very bold, and I
think t h a t q s a d i r e c t derivative of t h e Gothic.
Riess: Gothic a s he experienced it from h i s studies,
a l o t e a r l y too?
o r did he t r a v e l
VC : Oh, he studied i n Europe, and, of course, he traveled a l o t .
Riess: Any other influences, besides h i s upbringing and the Gothic?
VC : W e l l , he was inventive, I think, wasn't he? [speaking t o B i l l ]
He constantly had experiments going on i n the studio; t h e f i r s t
big, important one was the lucent glass. And then the second
one was t h e faceted glass. And he f e l t the same thing about
design.
VC : But I think it r e a l l y remained f o r the younger generation t o make
the r e a l break i n t o contemporary design. He -
did, a s f a r a s he
could, make the jump, but a s B i l l says, he had a l o t of the Gothic
i n him.
C : And a l s o I think t h a t , i n h i s experimental work, he would experi-
ment f o r years on something before he'd use it. I f he came t o
you a s a c l i e n t and said, "This i s something new I've been working
on; I ' d l i k e t o t a l k t o you about it," you could j u s t sit back
i n your chair and r e l a x and know t h a t i t ' s going t o be there for
a long time. He never introduced anything before he had t o t a l
research. I can remember him doing freezer tests and boiling
water and t h i s and t h a t ; he was always doing tests.
He'd make a l i t t l e test panel of faceted glass, you know, and
then he'd put i t i n the freezer, i n the deep freeze, and then he'd
bring it out and put it i n boiling water.
HWC: He'd put half
stay frozen.
of i t i n boiling water, and the other half would
Riess: Exciting.
a l l t h a t .
Yes, I can see why you wanted t o be down there watching
VC : Yes.
HWC: Yes.
Riess: You said i n the beginning t h a t you were getting your g l a s s from
a l l over.
VC : W e l l , t h a t ' s not q u i t e true. We're getting the g l a s s from England
and France, a great deal from France. And Germany. And i n t h i s
country principally from Blenko Glass. Don't you think t h a t ' s
correct? [speaking t o B i l l ]
HWC: Yes.
Riess: But not from the Bay Area?
VC : No. And there was no producer.
HWC: There s t i l l is no producer i n the Bay Area. You can 9 glass i n
t h e Bay Area, a s when we were here we sold glass, but we bought it.
Riess: Is i t a matter of materials,
problem here?
the s i l i c a s ? I mean what's the
HWC: Well, everybody wondered why we didn't g e t i n t o the production of
glass. And from a stained-glass studio's point of view, through
Bendheim i n New York, there a r e probably twenty d i f f e r e n t glass
manufacturers t h a t you can buy from, and then Blenko, and then i t
goes on and on and on. And between a l l of these glass companies
you have such a wealth of glass a t your disposal t h a t t o s e t up
your own production shop t o get what you want i s r e a l l y gilding
the l i l y . It's far l e s s expensive t o contact somebody who knows
how t o do it and t h a t ' s t h e i r expertise.
Nowadays, there a r e new shops going on. S e a t t l e and Portland
have very good glass companies. Spectrum, Bull's Eye. Bull's
Eye is i n Portland, I believe, and Spectrum is i n Seattle. I ' m
not too sure of t h a t , but i t ' s up i n the P a c i f i c Northwest. And
they ' r e f a i r l y good glasses.
Riess: W e l l , then, the problems t h a t you have i n making sure t h a t a
window w i l l s t i l l be there 200 years hence a r e not problems i n
glass, but i n t h e putting together.
HWC: It's s t r u c t u r a l l y , i t ' s i n t h e d e s i g n o f t h e w i n d o w . H o w i t ' s
a l l leaded together and where the barring goes and a l l of t h a t
is the difference.
Riess: The e d i t o r of Liturgical A r t s magazine,
someone you knew?
Maurice Lavanoux, was he
VC : M
y husband knew him.
Architecture and the Ministry of t h e Church
Riess: Have you an o v e r a l l sense of how t h e quality of church a r t and
decoration has changed i n the years from 1945-1965?
VC : Oh, of course things have changed tremendously, you know, even i n
colors. I think of the tapestries, f o r example. This i s a long
way away, but what 's--
HWC: Coventry.
VC : Coventry. Have you seen t h e tapestry over the a l t a r ?
Riess: No.
VC : It's grass green. Now, you never would have seen a thing l i k e
t h a t , you know, a hundred years ago, o r even s i x t y years ago I ' m
sure. So I think there's been a freeing up so f a r a s the use of
color is concerned. Don't you think so? [speaking t o B i l l ]
HWC: Y e s , I d o . I t h i n k t h a t a l o t o f t h e f r e e i n g u p , someof it is
very good and some of it is not so good. I think that a l o t of
it, l i k e a l o t of contemporary a r t , is being done on the basis
t h a t i t ' s "contemporary a r t , " and r e a l l y what i t i s , i t ' s an
undisciplined a r t i s t . And I think that there's an awful l o t of
t h a t going on universally, and I guess time w i l l somehow weed
a l l t h a t out. I t ' s important t h a t we experiment, and i t ' s
important t h a t we think up things, but I think t h e r e ' s very
l i t t l e l i t u r g i c a l thinking t h a t goes on today, and I think
t h a t ' s unfortunate.
There's such a great opportunity t o minister i n whatever it
is t h a t you do, and I don't mean you necessarily have t o be i n
t h e church, and I certainly, a s M
o
m can t e l l you, I ' m not a flag-
carrying member of a church, but I do think t h a t the opportunity
of t h e ministry i s an opportunity and i t ' s a l s o a responsibility.
And I think p a r t i c u l a r l y when you go i n t o a church, you need t o
be able t o put on the boots of the people t h a t a r e i n t h a t church
and understand t h a t ministry and then do something with it.
You may do something very contemporary, and you may do some-
thing very wild, and you may do something t h a t ' s far-out, and
t h a t ' s f i n e , I think t h a t ' s great. But I think a l o t of what's
being done now is being done i n the guise of a l l t h a t because
the a r t i s t wants t o impose h i s i d on the church, and I think t h a t
t h a t ' s unfortunate because t h a t ' s not what the church i s about.
R i e s s : Right. One of the people I interviewed called it "wowzer"
architecture, when your c a r p r a c t i c a l l y goes off the road a s you
go past t h i s structure t h a t j u s t shrieks a t you.
HWC: Yes, you j u s t have t o wonder what the ministry is.
I f you've been talking t o Warren C a l l i s t e r , undoubtedly you've
been t o Mother's church over here [Christian Science Church,
Belvedere]. That church is, gosh, t h i r t y years old t h i s year I
guess. And t h a t , t o me, i s s t i l l one of the freshest statements
i n the Bay Area.
VC : Well, you know, people come from a l l over the world
church.
t o s e e t h a t
HWC: Have you seen the Unitarian church between Franklin
Geary? The addition there?
and Gough, on
Riess: Yes. He did t h a t , yes.
HWC : Actually, J. Martin Rosse did that. He did t h a t i n conjunction
with Warren C a l l i s t e r , but Martin Rosse was the designer of that.
Riess : When C a l l i s t e r was talking about t h a t , he s a i d t h a t he d i d n ' t
want windows there; he wanted weavings, hangings.
HWC : Did he t e l l you my thought on that?
Riess : No. T e l l me your thought on that.
HWC : W
e were hired t o design windows f o r t h a t chapel.
Remember when we were hired t o design windows f o r the chapel
a t the Unitarian church? [speaking t o VC]
VC : I think I must have been away.
HWC : Anyway, i t ' w a s maybe the l a t e s i x t i e s o r early seventies, it was
r i g h t about the time the church was finished, and I walked i n
there, and Martin w a s very enthusiastic about the f a c t t h a t I was
called i n . And I j u s t said, "The ministry of t h i s piece of archi-
t e c t u r e , t h e way it is now, is stunning. It's s l o t t e d architecture.
Through t h i s window you see the children's playground and you see
the mother church and you see downtown San Francisco and you see
t h e administration wing, and you're i n t h i s l i t t l e tiny cocoon."
Riess : "Slotted" architecture?
HWC : 	 Yes.
Riess : 	
That's nice, right.
HWC : 	 And so you're i n t h i s l i t t l e t i n y cocoon, which is a f o r t r e s s ,
and y e t i t ' s reminding you exactly where you are. You know
precisely what your ministry has t o be when you're i n t h a t
building. Therefore, t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e ' s glass i n the s l o t s
a t a l l i s almost unfortunate; there should be nothing in there.
But the glass has t o keep out the weather, and so t h a t ' s the
way it should be.
And I went and talked t o Martin about i t , and he agreed with
me t o t a l l y . I went t o Warren and talked t o him about i t , and h e
agreed with me t o t a l l y . The church did not. What I didn't
r e a l i z e a t t h a t time was t h a t apparently there was a schism that
had been going on between t h e a r c h i t e c t and the church, and a l l
my support from the a r c h i t e c t s put me on t h e bad s i d e of the
church, because the a r c h i t e c t s wrote and they said t h a t I was
right. So the church said, "No, don't do anything."
VC :
HWC :
Riess:
mc:
Riess :
mc:
Riess:
HWC :
So then we came up, and remember t h a t sculpture t h a t I made?
[speaking t o VC]
Oh yes, yes.
Okay, I s t i l l have it. And I made a sculpture t h a t was--we were
i n Fresno when we did that--it was about three-and-a-half o r four
f e e t long I guess. Those windows a r e a foot wide by twenty f e e t
high. And so t h i s was three-and-a-half o r so f e e t long. If t h i s
is the plane of t h e window [gesturing] and you're looking out t o
it, the glass was l i k e t h i s , coming out i n t o the room.
With a free-standing thing.
The glass was l i k e t h i s and coming out i n t o the room, and here
it was almost f l u s h with the window and it went out l i k e t h i s and
then it came back l i k e t h i s , and it was metal and glass. It
j u s t hung i n f r o n t of t h a t window, about ten f e e t off the ground,
the idea being t h a t a s you walked past t h e window, the r e l a t i v e
position of those pieces of glass moved, and t h a t emphasized the
strength of the concrete w a l l s .
And I f e l t there should be no t a p e s t r i e s , there should be
nothing on the walls. W
h
y a r e they concrete? Why a r e they cast
concrete strong walls? W
h
y cover those things up? They're
gorgeous, they make a wonderful statement.
I didn't know how t o draw it, so I made i t , presented i t t o
the church and they said, "Go ahead with itt'--and then they
chickened out. Then they asked m
e t o design something e l s e , and
I said No, we wouldn't do it. So somebody e l s e did t h e windows,
and they're very satisfactory windows, hut I j u s t think the
building is no longer architecturally what it was.
Have you ever had a chance t o use t h a t idea?
No. Right now we're doing something similar t o that. We're talk-
ing t o a church about it. I don't know whether they're going t o
be brave enough t o do it o r not. That's been fourteen years ago.
Were you here when St. Mary's was being done?
Our studio was i n Fresno, yes, we were very much i n t h e area.
Were you involved i n any way with St. Mary's Cathedral?
No. That was done by the Willets Studios i n Philadelphia, and
those windows were designed by Kepes. [brief tape interruption]
Hilda Sachs
HWC: You and Hilda a r e t h e best c o l o r i s t s t h a t .the studio has
- seen.
VC : Oh, we worked together, yes.
Riess: T e l l me more about Hilda. I think that stained-glass
w i l l probably remain v i r t u a l l y unknown.
a r t i s t s
'HWC: I'dliketotalkaboutthatif Imay. M
y great sorrow i s t h a t it
looks a t t h i s point a s i f Hilda's going t o go unnoticed. She is
c r i t i c i z e d by t h e industry tremendously because she does not have
a school [a recognizable s t y l e ] , because you can't t e l l one of
Hilda's windows from another. Yet I think t h a t is precisely why
Hilda i s such a great a r t i s t .
Hilda comes i n and looks a t a s i t u a t i o n , and she designs f o r
t h a t s i t u a t i o n , and she loves doing it, and she loves walking
r i g h t out t o the end of t h e plank and putting one foot out over
the water and j u s t dangling it. She j u s t loves t o gamble. She
is an excellent c o l o r i s t . She's very spontaneous, and her
sketches a r e hard t o s e l l because her sketches a r e very sloppy-
looking. And now she has enough work behind her so t h a t people
see her work and they go, "Yes, I ' d l i k e those sketches."
A t f i r s t it was very d i f f i c u l t t o s e l l her work, because
they were sloppy, and y e t we had long t a l k s about it, and we
agreed, "Let's keep them sloppy," because we've seen t h a t e i t h e r
you spend yourself on your sketch, o r you spend yourself on your
cartoon, o r you spend yourself i n fabrication. And i f you're
going t o spend yourself, you should be spending it i n fabrication;
t h a t ' s where you should r e a l l y reach the climax of your window,
t h a t ' s where i t a l l happens. And i f you spent yourself on your
sketch, then it a l l begins t o d i s s i p a t e and lose v i t a l i t y a f t e r
that.
Hilda r e a l l y understands how t o pace herself so t h a t she
ends up reaching the r i g h t point a t the r i g h t time. She is a
team player l i k e nobody I ' v e ever worked with. I keep on saying
t h a t I ' m going t o r e t i r e when she r e t i r e s , and sometimes I'm
very serious about it. She is a r e a l privilege t o work with.
You could w r i t e an opera on her l i f e .
VC : Well, she designed t h e stained glass windows f o r the F i r s t Church
of Christ S c i e n t i s t i n Menlo Park, and they're l i k e nothing
e l s e , you know. And y e t they a t t r a c t more attention. More people
say, "Is t h i s a Cummings Studio job?" Yes, and it's Hilda's.
HWC: I t ' s very simple.
VC : Very simple, but i t ' s so right.
of rightness t h a t i s great.
She j u s t has a beautiful sense
HWC : She did those, and then contrasting on t h e opposite end of the
scale would be the windows a t Fort Ord, a t the F i r s t Brigade
Chapel down there, which a r e s t r i k i n g l y d i f f e r e n t ; you'd never
know they came out of the same head.
And then she didn't get the commission, and I ' m very sorry
f o r it t h a t she didn't, but she was asked t o design p a r t i c u l a r
windows f o r a p a r t i c u l a r church, and she j u s t didn't have time
t o do it. She wasn't kicked off o r anything, she j u s t didn't
have t h e time t o do it, but she began designing the windows.
It was f o r a nineteenth-century church i n the East Coast. They
were restoring the church, and the.windows they had i n there
were bad 1950 windows. W
e had convinced them t h a t they weren't
worth reproducing, and they had a very limited budget.
So Hilda took it over. They were a double-lancet window
with Gothic tops, with a k i t e a t the top. She designed each i n t o
one window, one single lancet, which apexed i n t h e mullion, with
borders going up around i t , so it was already a play on things,
and a t the very top she created what looked l i k e a gable, so
it was l i k e a trompe l ' o e i l , which is so r i g h t f o r the nineteenth
century. It's so 1984, and y e t a l l the rules f o r t h a t solution
came out of t h e nineteenth century. It was j u s t exotic, and i t
had a l l kinds of s t e n c i l i n g on it. You d i d n ' t s e e those I don't
think. [speaking t o VC]
VC : No, I didn't.
HWC: It would have been j u s t wonderful, but it was f a r more than they
could appreciate. But she does t h i s . She j u s t has a bag of
t r i c k s t h a t goes on forever. She's i n San Francisco, and she's
r e a l l y a stunning lady t o work with.
Riess: And y e t you're back on the East Coast. How does t h a t work?
Does she f l y t o Massachusetts t o do t h i s ?
HWC: Yes. S h e ' l l design i n San Francisco, and then sometimes I'll
cartoon, and sometimes s h e ' l l cartoon, but a t some point during
t h a t process she comes back and then corrects, and s e l e c t s color.
There's no doubt about i t t h a t I m i s s Hilda.
together three days a week before, and I learned a
from Hilda, but we learned a l o t from one another.
W
e were
great deal
Both of us
HWC: 	 f e e l t h a t two people create a s much a s three people do, and we
j u s t believed i n t h a t f a c t , so it wasn't a question a s t o where
the ideas came from o r who did they come from, but "I'll do some
work, and now I need some fresh eyes," and s o Hilda would come
i n , and Hilda would do some work, and so she'd need some f r e s h
eyes, and I ' d come i n , and you work t h a t way, and i t ' s beautiful.
It's a very, very exciting way t o work.
Riess: 	 Actually, t h a t puts t o l i e t h e s o r t of East-West Coast theory
t h a t you would have t o be on the East Coast t o be designing
correctly f o r an East Coast building. Once again, back t o the
l i g h t .
HWC: 	 Well, when you're talking about l a r g e r commissions, the larger
commissions do not e x i s t today l i k e they did i n the f i f t i e s o r
even i n t h e f o r t i e s , and so most of the l a r g e r studios i n the
country have t o go nationwide i n order t o e x i s t . When you're
doing a whole room o r a whole project over a long period of time,
t h e mechanical coordination, the a e s t h e t i c coordination, the
business coordination is j u s t tremendous. I think t h a t there
a r e s o few of us t h a t do t h a t well, t h a t i t r e a l l y doesn't make
any difference where we are. [tape interruption]
"God's People"
HWC: 	 While I was out here I was attending a conference on a r t i n the
Catholic Church. They kept on referring back t o the Vatican I1
Council, what happened then, what we have done since then, and
what must we do now. This i s only t h e second national forum
they have ever had, they said. It was very stimulating. It was
good f o r Hilda r i g h t now, because she is s t a r t i n g designing two
f u l l churches r i g h t now, so she is going t o come t o them with
some d i f f e r e n t ideas, I am sure, than they were expecting t o get.
The .biggest change, t h a t kept on being repeated, is t o
"remember, we're not building the house of God, we're building
the house of God's people." That's a very dramatic change. The
looks of it a r e changing. The narthex is now a s big a s the nave
i t s e l f , and i s called the assembly area, o r something l i k e that.
It's f o r the socfal things, sit-down dinners and a l l kinds of
things.
Remember we went through a period of having the church i n
the round, and t h a t r e a l l y didn't work out because t h e p r i e s t
kept on doing t h i s [gesturing]. And we f i n a l l y ended up with
HWC :
VC :
HWC :
VC :
HWC :
Riess :
VC :
HWC :
fan-shaped churches. But now rather than having fan-shaped churches
with sloped floors, they're leaving the floors f l a t and r a i s i n g
the pulpit because of the f a c t t h a t then they have more f l e x i b i l i t y
i n the place.
The pews--there1ll be a bank of pews facing t h i s way, and a
bank of pews facing t h i s way, having them overlapping, s o t h a t
these people a r e looking a t these people, a s well a s looking up
here [ a t a l t a r area], the idea being t h a t the worship space is
the e n t i r e space. And the r e a l l y sacred works of a r t a r e a l l
movable. And I s a t there, a s a stained-glass person!
It's going t o be interesting. I ' m sure the church i s going
t o continue t o go through a whole l o t of these things. Singing
Martin Luther hymns, e t cetera.
We're always i n t h e process of becoming.
They're talking about stimulus now, and they're saying t h a t the
service has t o be more than j u s t visual o r j u s t audio. It has t o
be audio and visual and sensual; a l l your senses have t o be
involved i n the service. [tape interruption]
M
o
m was the s p i r i t u a l leader of the studio. And she s t i l l is.
You a r e [ t o VC].
Yes. It's an important p a r t of the whole thing, i s n ' t i t 3 [quietly]
That, t o t h i s family's operation, has been c r i t i c a l .
H
o
w were you the s p i r i t u a l leader?
I r e a l l y don't know. I l i v e very much i n the present, you know,
what's the need a t t h e moment, and you do the best you can i n
whatever way you can t o meet the need. It's c e r t a i n l y nothing
that goes on paper, o r t h a t there's any proof of. B i l l is very
generous, I think.
Mother is t h e very epitome, I think, of the feminine c h a r a c t e r i s t i c
of nurturing, and Mother does nurture. Mom, i n a joking fashion--
I've kidded her about it before--as you've found out today, M
o
m
has a very loud voice. [laughing] Mother has t h i s a b i l i t y of
g e t t i n g up i n f r o n t of a group of people and saying, "I think you
ought t o bury your head i n the sand," and everybody turns over
and buries t h e i r head i n the sand and says, ''Thank you." [laughter]
So behind t h i s very quiet lady is a whole l o t of power. And
I think t h a t it's a power t h a t very e a s i l y could be abusive, but
I think t h a t she takes it very seriously. I r e a l l y found out more
HWC: 	 about i t being away from the studio than I did being with the
studio. The way we were raised, how you t a l k t o people, how you
look a t people, how you think about people, i t had t o do with a
theological approach t o people, what man was a l l about.
Riess: 	 Why don't you say i t had t o do with being a Christian S c i e n t i s t ?
HWC:	 To M
o
m it has everything t o do with being a Christian Scientist.
I ' m not a Christian S c i e n t i s t , and y e t I guess I always w i l l be.
M
o
m says I am. W e didn't work together f o r a period of f i v e or
s i x years, something l i k e t h a t , and then I came back and I was
working with her and we frankly d i d n ' t know how we would work
together a t a l l , we didn't know whether it would be good, bad,
or indifferent, and a s we worked together I think we discovered
t h a t we had t h e same values, the same goals. And Mother came up
t o m e one day and she said, "You r e a l l y a r e a Christian Scientist."
I think God is good t o l o t s of people, and so I guess I resist
t h e idea t h a t i t ' s j u s t Christian Science.
VC : 	 And you know, he has a constitutional r i g h t t o do that.
HWC: 	 When we did t h e windows a t Fort Ord, an Episcopal chaplain,
Chaplain Burgreen--who I think you met, didn't you, Mom?
VC : 	 Yes.
HWC : --he had worked with m
e about three months, and then a t one time
he came t o me and he said, "Are you a Chistian Scientist?" "No,"
I said. "Well, you sure fooled me," he said.
VC : To me it doesn't make any difference what you c a l l yourself.
you think is the main thing.
H
o
w
Riess: How have you continued t h i s sense i n your business?
HWC: I think the thing t h a t I was born and raised with is t h a t i n t e g r i t y
is not something t h a t a r t has any corner on, or business has any
corner on, or family relationship has any corner on, but a s a
matter of f a c t , i f you have i n t e g r i t y then your i n t e g r i t y permeates
everything t h a t you do, o r you don't have it a t a l l .
So i f w e ' r e wanting t o do r e a l l y significant work t h a t has
i n t e g r i t y , then our business c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s must r e f l e c t that.
And t h e way w e work with t h e people with whom we work and t h e way
we work with the c l i e n t s with whom we work has t o have t h a t same
i n t e g r i t y . The weakest l i n k is going t o break t h e chain.
Transcriber: Joyce Minick
Final Typist: Catherine Winter
--
INDEX -- Renaissance of Religious A r t 

Bay Area, 1946-1968 

Adams, Mark, 1, 194, 296, 324, 335, 

340, I n t . 464-498, 520, 567

-
Adderton, Aileen, 365 

Allen, Harry and Winifred, 293, 296-

297, 300 

Allen, John 537-538 

American I n s t i t u t e of Architects, 

Committee f o r arts & a r c h i t e c t u r e , 

231 

a r c h i t e c t u r e , 

Bay Area, 145-147, 227-231, 288-

292, 364 

church, 

Bay Area, 144-174, 229 passim, 

250-253, 292-311, 318-319. 

Byzantine, 253-255, 277, 366, 

369, 380, 383 

Gothic r e v i v a l , 325-329 

New England, 284-302 

a l s o see r e l i g i o u s i n s t i t u t i o n s
index 

Armer, Ruth, 9 

Arnautoff, Victor, 186-187 

art, "Ecumenical A r t Council, " 243-

244 

art 

c a r i c a t u r e , cartoon, 139-143 

ceramic, 120-123, 127-128, 239-

241, 251 passim 

f a b r i c , 

hangings, 97, 108-110 

vestments, 41-43 

f r e s c o and mural, 135-138, 186-

190, 418-419, 422-423, 428-430, 

438, 451-452; 457-461 

g l a s s , sculpture, 397-401 

l e t t e r i n g , calligraphy, 525-526, 

565-566 

l i g h t s , l i g h t i n g , 302, 340-342, 

381, 387-388 

l o s t wax c a s t i n g , 539-540 

metal sculpture, silversmithing, 

501 passim
and Architecture i n t h e San Francisco
art,
mosaic, 84-89, 99-100, 124, 254-255 

329-3329 348, 446-447, 450, 452, 

455, 458, 497 

sculpture, 21-28, 35, 401-404, 420-

421 

stained g l a s s , 155, 251, 254-255, 

295-296, 298-299, 320-361 

faceted glass, 320, 332-333, 340-

' 342, 350-351, 484-487, 490-491 

lucent mosaic, 329-332, 351 

g l a s s making, 320-321, 352-353 

designing, 322-329, 334-337, 343-

352, 357-358 

t a p e s t r y and weaving, 475-477, 479- . 

484, 488-489 

t i l e , Cosmati, 366, 374-375, 381 

wood, 126, 155 

art, r e l i g i o u s , European, 4-5, 70-74 

Asher, Rabbi Joseph, 491 

Bailey, Forrest, 438 

Baldwin, Madeleine, 63 

Bassett, Chuck, 497 

Begin, Bp. Floyd, 109-110, 233, 235 

Belluschi, P i e t r o , 14, 162, 164-167, 

249, 319 

Benigsen, George, 204 

Benvenuto, E l i o , 9-10, 12, 208, 

I n t . 21-38, 232-, 238 

Berger, Minna,
- 69, 182, 195, 199 

Berger, Sam, 155 

Bethune, Ada, 67, 198-199 

Bezalel School, Jerusalem, 507, 549 

Bishof f , James, 315,, 317 

Blake, Barney, 475 

Blanchard, Norman K., 204 

Blank, Fr. Benedict Augustin, O.P., 

326 

Bloch, Ernest, 78, 381, 391-399, 408-

413, 434, 451 

Bloch, Ivan, 414, 416-417 

--
Cravath, Ruth, 1, 8-10, 26, 29-30, 

44, 64, 86, 121, 124, 126, 1.52-

153, 203-204, 209, 217, 232, 238 

Cumings, B i l l (Harold W. ) , 298, 

I n t . 326-361 

Cummings, John, 334

-
Cummings, Vivian, -
I n t . 326-361 

Cummings, P a t , (Harold W. ) , 296, 

298-299, 320 passim, 484-485 

Cummings Studios [stained g l a s s ] , 

296, 298, 320 passim 

Dachauer, Paul, 36, 213, 218 

Dailey, Gardner, 363 

D a l i , Salvador, 79 

Dally, Darrell, 44, 202, 213 

Darcy, Sr. Jean, O.P., 12 

Dean, Harriet, 7-8, 176, 181, 190-

198, 467 

d e P a t t a , Margaret, 511, 546 

D e Quesada, Jorge, 488 

D e Rosen, John, 137 

DeStaebler, Stephen 219, 239-241, 

I n t . 250-287, 478-479 

d e Young Museum, 

" ~ x h i b i t i o nof Religious Art by
C a l i f o r n i a A r t i s t s , " Oct. 1952,
See Catholic Art Forum, exhibi-
t i o n 

D e W i t , Fr. Gregory, 190-193 

Diebels, Fr. Joe, 64 

Diebels, Paul, 61-62 

Dimitroff, Lucienne Bloch, 374-375, 

Dollar, Robert [window], 346 

Downie, Harry, 8 , 193-194, 467-468 

DuCasse, Micaela Martinez, 10, 12, 

I n t . 175-226, 492 

DuCasse, Ralph, 195 

Dwyer, Abp. kobert, 50 

ecumenism, 9 

11Center of Understanding,"San
Francisco, 243-244 

&ole des Beaux-Arts, P a r i s , 144-146 

E l l i s , ~ a i e l o c k , 410-411 

Erckenbrack, Mary, 9, 77, I n t . 119-

-
128, 232, 238 

Esherick, Joseph, 364 

F a b i l l i , Mary, 1
1


Falkenstein, Claire, 441, 537, 541 

Farnham, Rev. E.C., 205 

Ferguson, Marilyn, 9 1 

Fine, Rabbi Alvin I., 205 

Finn, Fr. William, C.S.P., 195-196 

Finney, Clem, 263 

Fitzroy, Dariel, 372 

Fletcher, Marianna, 539 

Fortune, Charlton ("Effie"), 6-7, 

40-41, 47, 49-59, 68, 71, 95, 116, 

196-198, 200, 219, 470 

Frankenstein, Alfred, 3-4, 102, 114, 

207, 482 

f r e e speech movement, 

and r e l i g i o n , 310-311 

Fromer, Seymour, 104-105 

F u l l e r , Buckminster, 92 

f u r n i t u r e design, 517-519 

Gaidano, Mario, 36 

Gaywood, William, 349 

Geary, Ida, 457 

Genung, Lyn, 155 

Gibney , Luke, 9 

G i l l , E r i c, 198 

G i l l e s p i e , David M., 137 

Girard, Andr;, 17-20, 245, 349, 470, 

495 

Golden, Joe and Janet, 63, 66, 116 

Golden Gate I n t e r n a t i o n a l Exposition, 

1939, Treasure Island, 330 

I IArt i n Action," 120, 140 

l i t u r g i c a l a r t s a t , 55 

Goldman, Rhoda Stern, 407 

Goodman, Michael, 207 

Gottlieb, Lois Davidson, 299, 304 

Graham, Cecilia, 120 

Graves, Norbert, 323 

Gregg, Harold, 534, 544 

Guermonprez, Trude, 442, 535, 537-

538, 541 

Gulbenkian Foundation, 122 

Gump's, San Francisco, 

windows, 474, 484 

Haas, E l i s e Stern, 404, 490-492
Haas, Peter, 407
Haggerty, James, 192
Halbrook, Bob, 348
Hamlin, Edith, 217
Hanchen and Goddard , l i g h t i n g,
381
Hanna Center f o r Boys, Sonoma,
Chapel, 8-9, 12, 121, 232, 238,
246
Hannash, Monica, 1 3
Harris, Harwell Hamilton, 362-363
Hartnet, William, 513, 520
Hass, June Foster, 10, 209, 220,
234
Hastings, Viscount Jack, 422
Hays, Elah Hale, 13, 46, 105-106,
203, 206
Heasley, Clyde, 60
Hedley, George, 306-307, 311
H e i l , Walter, 3-4
Henderson, Mel, 268-269
Hennessy, A. E., 119
Herr, Jane Brandenstein, 437-443,
533-539, 543
Herr, Gordon, 437-443, 533-539,
543
Hertzka and Knowles Associates,
Architects, 146-147
H i l l m e r , Jack, 289, 313
Hobart, Lewis, 144-149, 161, 386
Hofinger, Fr. Johannes, S.J., 1
1
Hofmann, Hans, 464, 468-469, 476,
554
Horn, Walter, 239
Hudson, Robert, 240
Huneke, Carl, 155
Hurley, Msgr. Mark J., 25, 32
Iakovof , Archbishop, 372
Jackson, Msgr. Charles E., 488
Jadez, Victoria, 66
Jenkins, Louisa, 3, 9-10, 12, 17,
64, 74-75, I n t . 84-94, 98-100, 102,
114, 2 0 5 ~ 2 0 ~ 7 ~ 6 ,
520
497,
Jennings, Aleta, 204
Jewish art, 547 passim,
H o l o c a u s t a r t , 523, 549-550, 558
Johnson, Sargent, 9
Jorasch, Richard, 239, 256-258, 263-
264
Joseph, Emily [Mrs. Sidney] 401-402,
437
Jungmann, Fr. Joseph,.. 5
Junipero S e r r a Shop, San Francisco,
5,'10, 13, 45, 60-69, 112-113, 116,
213, 216-217, 220, 225, 492
Justema, W i l l i a m , I n t . 70-83, 85
Kahlo, Frida, 179, 418, 423-426
Katzaris, Fr. Steve, 455
Kazmarcik, Fr. Frank, 45, 476, 493
Kelham, George, 146
Kepes, Gyorgy, 324, 335, 356
Kump, Ernest, 290
La Barbara, Louis, 75
Labouret t , (stained g l a s s
a r t i s t ) , 333
Labatut, Jean, 245, 349
Lang, (carpenter, a r t i s t ) ,
537-538
Larkin, Carol, 108, 109
Lavanoux, Maurice, 2, 45, 63, 67,
78, 95, 199-200, 347, 353
Lederle, D e l , 10, 12, 29, 63-64, 67,
156, 191, 209, 220, 476
Leipziger , Hugo, 289
L e s l i e , Jean, 9, 10
Liebman, Mrs. [nee eyer] ,
416-417
Lindheim, Mary, 544
Lippold, Richard, 31, 81, 132, 164
l i t u r g i c a l a r t s ,
European background, 70-74, 96-97,
200-201
l i t u r g i c a l a r t s ,
"prototype church, l1 245, 349-350
movement, comments, 470-474, 478,
492-496 

See e n t r i e s under index t o 

religious i n s t i t u t i o n s 

L i t u r g i c a l A r t s Magazine, 1, 2, 13,
40, 45, 49, 63, 67969, 78-79, 95
112, 199-201, 219, 223, 245, 347-
348
l i t u r g i c a l music, 195-196, 285-287
[Eric] Locke Galleries, San Fran-
cisco, 214
Loire, Gabriel, 333, 484-485
Luce, Clare Boothe, 88, 90
Luptak, Emi, 13, 29, 112-113
L u r ~ a t ,Jean, 480-482
Macchiarini, Lydia, 22
Macchiarini, Peter, 10, 205
McCleod, Ian, 250
McGucken, Abp. Joseph T.3 4, 14,
30-31, 158-174, 246, 248-249
McKeever, George, 492
McMillan, Mike, 270
McSweeney, Ryan & Lee, a r c h i t e c t s ,
160, 166, 246, 248-249, 319 ,
Magnes Museum, Berkeley, 104, 547-
548, 561-563, 567
Maher, Msgr. Leo T., 25, 33, 46,
205
Malone, Skewes-Coxe, family, 444-
445
Manfrini, Enrico, 171
Maritain , Jacques, 181
Martin, Fr. Vincent, O.S.B., 55,
66, 225
Martinez, E l s i e Whitaker, 7, 175-
183, 190-198, 467
Martinez, Xavier, 7, 175-180, 184,
186-187
Mary Antoinette, Sr., 12
Mary Dolora, Sr., 101
Masten, Louise, 67
Maybeck, Bernard, 245, 252, 255-
256, 293-294, 298, 386
Meehan, Fr. John, 6-7, 9, 12, 39-
49, 58-59, 68, 105-106, 197, 200,
202-,203, 206-207, 209
Meinberger, Walter, 302
Meinicke, Fr. Paul, 188
Mendelsohn, Eric, 433-435, 443, 507-
508, 510-512, 522-523, 533
Merton, Thomas, 72, 94, 465
Michels, Emily, I n t . 39-48
Mihailoff, Francis, 304, 483
Milhaud, Darius, 78
Miljarik, Louis, 101, 103
M i l l s College, Chapel, 304, 306-311
M i l l s , Barbara, 89, 92
M i l l s , Paul, 102-103, 556
Milono, Germano, 488
Mitchell, Fr. Brendan, O.F.M., 188
Mitty, Abp. John J., 25, 154, 189,
246
Molton, P h i l , 307-308
Monihan, Fr. William J., S
:
L ;I n t . 1-20,
26, 45, 97, 113, 202-203, 217, 513,
520, 529
Monterey Guild, 7, 40, 50, 52, 54,
57, 69, 71, 197
Montgomery, Joe, 299, 304
Moore, Charles, 315
Moore, Mary Eggers, 60, 63, 492
Morgan, J u l i a , 253
Morris, Joan, 67, 194-195, 198
V.C. orris, shop, San Francisco,
512, 533, 544
Moses, Elizabeth, 205-206, 530
Moya D e l Pino, Jose, 77
Moyer, Frances, 13, 46
Nanny's, shop, San Francisco, 546
National Council of Catholic Women,
193
Nervi, P i e r Luigi, 14, 31, 81, 162,
164-165, 169, 246-249, 319, 496
Neehaus, Eugen, 102
Niemeyer, Oscar, 236-237
Niendorf, Arthur, 425-427
Noguchi, Isamu, 270-271
Nord, E r i c (Big Daddy), 475
Oakland A r t Association, 551, 555-556
Oakland, Catholic Diocese, 109-110,
233-241, 263-264
O'Connell, Msgr. Michael 192
D.9
0 'Connor, Daniel, 28-29
O'Connor, Mother Mary Raymond, O.P.,
53-54
O'Connor, Fr. Terrence R., S.J.,
3 , 1
1
, 14-15, 28, 40, 46
O'Dowd, Bp. James T., 25, 154
O'Hara, Bp. Edwin V., 51, 56-57
Olette, Arnold, 299
O'Looney, Fr. Martin Joseph, C.S.P.,
61, 64, 69
Olwell, Robert, 318, -
I n t . 362-390,
446-449, 453
Oronoz, Fr. Juan, 40
Palace Hotel, San Francisco, 140,
155
P a l e s t i n e , 1933, 504-510
Pardinas, Alphonso, 497
P a t i s , Fr. Thomas J., 376
Park, David, 554
P a r r , Fred W., 330
Payne, Jack, 294-2 96, 303-304, 314
P e r r i n e l l o , Tony, 36
Pflueger, Timothy, 140
Phoenix Day, , lighting,, San Fran-
cisco, 155 ,
Pike, Bp . James A., 445-446, 454
P i n a r t , Robert, 324, 333-335
Pond Farm, 436-443, 533-539, 543,
546
Pope John XXIII, 216
Pope Paul V I , 215-216
P r a t t , P h i l , 10
P r i e s , Lionel ("Spike1') , 363-366,
371., 395
Princeton University, 282-287
Chapel, 251
Probst, Victor, 289
Pryor, John, 289
Putnam, Arthur, 21
Quinn, Fr. Joseph, C.S.P., 234-237,
239, 241
Rambusch, Robert, 45, 64, 110, 485
Ramrn, Msgr. Charles A , , 147
Raney, Vincent, 36
Ready, W i l l , 17, 19-20
RCgamey, Fr. Pie-Raymond, O.P.,
5, 201 I
Reid, John, 363-367, 375
Reid & Tarics Associates, a r c h i t e c t s ,
See Olwell interview
Reinhold, Fr. Hans Ansgar, 5, 78
Requa, Mark, 140
Rice, Raymond, 444, 446
Rich, Frances, 74-75, 77, 208
Ries, Victor, 8-9, 15-16, 442-444,
I n t . 499-546, 548-549, 559, 561,
565, 568
Rinder, Reuben, 409
R i t e of I n i t i a t i o n f o r C h r i s t i a n
Adults, 110-111, 117
R i t z i u s , Fr. John, C.S.P., 236,
257-262, 274, 280
Rivera, Diego, 141, 179, 186, 406-
408, 415-430, 452, 461
Rivera, Frida,
See Kahlo, F r i d a
Robeson, Paul, 409
Robinson, Leonard, 166
Rockwell, Burt, 364
Rosse, Martin, 295-296, 355
Rothkoy Mark, 79, 282
Russell, Madeleine Haas, 492
Ryan, Paul, 14, 126, I n t . 144-174,
212-213, 218-220, 24-48-249,
319, 337
Ryan, Beatrice Judd, 120
Sachs, Hilda, 323, 335, 357-359
San Francisco Art I n s t i t u t e , 256,
313
San Francisco,
building during Depression era,
145-146, 148
San Francisco Conservatory of Music,
395, 408, 433
San Francisco Tapestry Workshop, 498
San Francisco Yerba Buena Center
p r o j e c t , 227-228
San Francisco Magazine, 143
Schaeffer, Rudolph, 207
Rudolph Schaef fer School of Design,
292
Schmidt, Fr. Paul J., 384
Schuppel, W i l l i a m , 166
Selz, Peter, 239
Sessions, Roger, 451, 462
Sheldrake, Rubert, 91
Simoes, Santos, 122
Simoneau, Marian, 183
Skidmore, Owings, Merrill, archi-
t e c t s , 484, 489, 497
Sotomayor, Antonio, 10, 26, 77,
I n t . 129-243, 209, 476
Souza, Ethel, 5, 12, 45, Int. 60-
69, 112-113, 116, 225, 4 Z T -
sowers, Robert, 324, 335, 349
Spaeth, Otto, 13, 78
Spengler, Oswald , 181
Stackpole, Ralph, 187
Stamos, J i m , 366
Stanford, Sally, 297
Staude, Marguerite Brunswig, 76, 93
Stegman, Vincent, 67
Stern, Rosalie (Mrs. Sigmund), 404-
408, 416-417, 437-438
S t i l l , Clyfford, 468-469
Strasburger, ROY, 488
Strawn, Marie, 10
Sullivan, Noel, 8, 192, 195-196
Tanaguchi, Alan, 299, 304
Taylor, Michael, 483
Teilhard de Chardin, P i e r r e , 90-91
Telesis, group, 289
Temko, Allan, 318
Thiry, Paul, 119
Thomas, George, 283
Tiessielinck, August, 46
Tival, Brian, 367, 373-375, 381,
446, 447 .
Tolerton, David, 87-88
Traphagen, Peter, 171
T r e t t e l , Fr. Effrem, 36-37
Unitarianism, Unitarians, 304-306,
355, 356
University of California,
A r t Museum, 245, 256, 318
Department of Architecture,
365, 385-386
and Newman Hall, 234, 237-239
University of the Pacif i c y Chapel,
329-330
University of San Francisco,
Gleeson Library, 1, 2, 217
Rare Book Room, 16-17
University of Texas,
School of Architecture, 288-289
Valdespeza, Armando, 183-184
Valvo, Ninfa, 3-4, 84, 102, 203-205,
214, 476, 492, 513, 520, 529-530
Valyermo, see St. Andrews Priory
Vanderbruck, Franz, 8
van Doorslaer, Fr .Maur, 0. S. B.,
225
Van Erp, Dirk, 9, 58, 340
Van Hoesen, Beth, 469, 475, 480,
492, 498
Varda, Jean, 92, 96, 107, 114, 537,
541
Vatican I1 Council, 34, 68, 72, 105,
109-110, 132, 160-162, 190, 209-211,
216, 260-262, 335-336, 359-360, 494
Vlahos, Fr. George, 366-367, 370,
374, 376, 388, 447, 449, 453-454
Vlahos, Fr. Steve, 380
Vodusek, Fr. V i t a l , 26-28, 45, 232-
233, 248
Von Ogterop, Wilhelmina, 323
Voulkosy Peter, 240, 541
Waegemann, GUS, 299
Wagner, Msgr. Alvin, 50
Wagner, Dick, 256
Wallace, Joe, 296
Weinrich, Carl, 286
Western A r t 381
White, Minor, 313
Wildenhain, Frans, 442, 535-536,
538, 541, 543
Wildenhain, Marguerite, 441, 534-
539, 543-544
Wilhelm, Stephanie Alioto, 12, 44
Wright, Frank Lloyd, 362-363, 393,
400, 414-416, 510, 522
Wolfe, Tom,
The Painted Word, 487
Wolfskill, Sr. Maria Luisa, 87 

I n t . 95-118 

Woodbridge, John, 489 

Works Progress Administration (WPA), 

409, 430-431 

Wurster, William, 289, 363-365, 

386, 496 

Wurster, Bernardi, Emmons, archi-

t e c t s , 484 

INDEX T
O RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS
churches, 

Catholic, 

C a l i f o r n i a , 

Church of t h e Nativity, San 

Francisco, 28 

Church of Our Lady of Loretto, 

r e c t o r y , Novato, 152 

Church of St. Angela, P a c i f i c 

Grove, 53-55 

Corpus C h r i s t i Church, San 

Francisco, 10, 23, 218, 

231-232, 238, 245 

Holy S p i r i t Parish, Newman H a l l , 

12, 211, 218, 219, 233-243, 

257-280 

Old S t . Mary's Church, P a u l i s t , 

San Francisco, 154, 236, 

473, 474, 486, 497 

St. Agnes Church, Concord, 

382-384 

St. Aloysius Church, Palo Alto, 

47 

S t . Ann's Chapel, Palo Alto, 

17, 84, 88, 90, 470 

St. Anthony's Church, San 

Francisco, 36 

Dining Room, 133 

St. Augustine's Church, 

Pleasanton, 131, 138 

St. Basil's Church, Vallejo, 

148, 153, 155 

Yang, Fr. Thaddeus, O.S.B., 92
Zrnich, Barbara, 64, 67, 112 

Zunino, Fr. David, S.D.B., 23-24 

churches, 

Catholic, 

California, 

St. Boniface Church, San 

Francisco, Marian Library 

murals, 187-189 

St. Dominic's Church, San Fran- 

cisco, 325-326 

St. Francis de Sales, Catholic 

Cathedral, Oakland, 110 

St. I g n a t i u s Church, San Fran- 

cisco, 329, 336, 347 

St. J a r l e t h ' s Church, Oakland, 

149, 155 

St. Leander's Church, Oakland, 

110 

St. Luke's Church, Stockton, 

27 

St. Mary's Cathedral, San Fran- 

cisco, 4, 13-15, 30-32, 80, 

81-83, 1
1
1
, 132, 152, 158, 

160-174, 246-249, 318-319, 

356, 377, 386-387, 485, 496, 

563 

on Van Ness Avenue, 14, 147, 

246 

art museum, 211, 212 

St. P a t r i c k ' s Church, San Fran- 

cisco, 244 

St. P e t e r & Paul's Church, 

Salesian, San Francisco, 34 

churches,
Catholic
C a l i f o r n i a ,
S t . Philomene's Church, Sacra-
mento, 348
S t . Stephen's Church, San
Francisco, 526
St. Thomas More, San Fran-
cisco, 486, 488
S t . Vincent d e Paul, San Fran-
c i s c o , 520, 521
Washington, D. C. ,
National Shine, 159, 177
Missouri,
Immaculate Conception Cathedral,
Kansas City, 56-57; 71
C h r i s t i a n Science,
F i r s t Church, Belvedere, 245,
252, 292-294, 296-302, 340-
341, 354, 386
F i r s t Church, Berkeley, 245,
252, 255-256, 294, 298, 496
F i r s t Church, M i l l Valley, 302-
305, 308
F i r s t Church, Menlo Park, 357-
358
Episcopalian,
A l l S a i n t s Church, C a r m e l , 486
A l l S a i n t s Church, Palo Alto,
349
A l l S a i n t s Church, Pasadena,
294, 304-305, 307, 314
Grace Cathedral,
a r c h i t e c t u r e , 144-148, 386
bookstore, 220
exhibition, "Church Art Today,
1960," 214
mural panels, 135-139
windows, 326
S t . Aidan's, San Francisco,
479, 486, 489-490
S t . Andrew's, Saratoga, 487
S t . Mary t h e Virgin, San Fran-
cisco, 432, 454-458
S t . Stephen's Church, Belvedere,
340, 346
Lutheran,
Church of t h e Good Shepherd,
Concord, 122
churches, 

Orthodox, 

Greek Orthodox Church of t h e
Ascension, Oakland, 366 passim,
446-450, 453-455
Greek Orthodox Church of t h e Holy
Cross, Belmont, 371, 374, 380-
381, 455
Holy T r i n i t y Greek Orthodox Church,
San Francisco, 389
Presbyterian,
Calvary Presbyterian Church, San
Francisco, 327-328, 458-461
F i r s t Presbyterian Church, San
Rafael, 346
S t . John's Presbyterian Church,
Berkeley, 253
Unitarian,
Unitarian Church, Kensington,
386
Unitarian Church, Berkeley, 252
Unitarian Church, San Francisco,
250-251, 304-306, 354-356
colleges,
Dominican College of San Rafael,
San Rafael, 40, 42, 53, 55, 326,
336
Holy Names College, Oakland, 84,
87, 95, 98-100, 330
St. ~ l b e r t ' st h e Great, Dominican
College, Oakland, 325-326, 336
St. Mary's College, Moraga, CAY
524, 525
St. Mary's College, Notre Dame,
Indiana, 86
St. Meinrad's Seminary, Benedictine
southern Indiana, 190-191, 493
missions
Camel, 1, 72, 190-195, 467, 468
San Jose, 326
monasteries
M t . Angel Abbey, Benedictine, Oregon,
72-78, 84-85, 91-92
monasteries
Portsmouth Priory, Benedictine,
Rhode Island, 164
S t . Andrew's P r i o r i t y , Benedic-
t i n e , Palmdale, 66, 92-93, 113,
121, 224-226
S t . John's, Benedictine, Minnesota,
465, 466
C r i s t o Rey, Carmelite, San Fran-
cisco, 149-150, 173, 218-219
Whitethorn, C i s t e r c i a n Nuns of
t h e S t r i c t Observance, Our
Lady of t h e Redwoods Monastery,
93
Poor Clares Monastery, Los Altos,
347
Ursuline S i s t e r s Chapel, Santa
Rosa, 28-29
other
Casa Maria Retreat, Santa Barbara,
S i s t e r s of t h e Immaculate Heart,
65, 66, 92
F o r t Ord , F i r s t Brigade Chapel,
358, 361
Treasure Island Naval S t a t i o n
Chapel, 221-222
Hanna Boys Center, Sonoma County,
8-9, 12, 121, 232, 238, 246
M i l l s College, Oakland, Chapel,
304, 306-311
Riordan High School, Catholic,
154
Robert Louis Stevenson School
Chapel, Pebble Beach, 388
Vallombrosa R e t r e a t House, Menlo -
Park, 40, 66, 84, 88, 106
temples
Temple Beth Abraham, Oakland, 523,
561
Temple Beth E l , San Mateo, 504,
531, 532
Temple Emanu-El, Grand Rapids,
Michigan, 433-436, 463
Temple Emanu-El, San Francisco,
15, 205, 208,.434, 486, 488,
490-492, 496, 567
Temple S i n a i , Oakland, 557-558, 560
Micaela Martinez DuCasse
Daughter of Xavier Martinez and E l s i e Whitaker Martinez.
Educated under h e r father a t California College of A r t s
and Crafts, 1928-31.
Studied fresco painting with. Victor Arnautoff i n 1938,
and sculpture with Ralph Stackpole i n 1938-9, a t San
Francisco A r t I n s t i t u t e .
Liturgical mural commission i n 1939 a t St. Boniface Church,
San Francisco. Career i n l i t u r g i c a l a r t s through mid-1950s.
Founding member, Catholic A r t Forum of San Francisco.
Member, a r t department faculty, Lone Mountain College;
chairman, 1955-78.
Organized a survey course i n history of California a r t ,
as a preview t o the opening of the Oakland Museum i n
September of 1969. The research and knowledge obtained i n
preparing t h i s course was background f o r the o r a l history
Interviewing of Helen Clark Oldfield.
Suzanne Bassett Riess
Grew up i n Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
Graduated from Goucher College, B.A. i n
English , 1957.
Post-graduate work, University of London 

and the University of California, Berkeley, 

i n English and history of a r t . 

Feature writing and assistant woman's page 

editor, Globe-Times , Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 

Free-lance writing and editing i n Berkeley. 

Volunteer work on starting a new Berkeley 

newspaper. 

Natural science docent a t the Oakland Museum.

Editor i n the Regional O r a l History Office 

since 1960, interviewing i n the fields of 

a r t , cultural history, environmental design, 

photography, Berkeley and University history.