University of California General ~ibrary/~erkeley 

Regional Cultural History Projeot 

Stephen C, Pepper 

ART AlOD PHILOSOPHY

AT THE

UNIVERSI!L'Y OF CALIFORNIA, 1919 TO 1962 

A
n Interview Conducted by 

Suzanne B, Riess 

Berkeley 

1963 

The o r i g i n a l copy of the Stephen C. Pepper manuscript,
deposited i n The Bancroft Library of the University of
California a t Berkeley, includes three a r t i c l e s by
Stephen C. Pepper from the College A r t Journal:
"Creative Training," Vol. I X , no. 3, Spring 1950; ''The
Problem of Teacher Training i n A r t , " ibid.; "A Balanced
A r t Department, Vol. X I , no. 3, Spring 1952.
Stephen C. Pepper, 1953
A l l uses of t h i s manuscript are covered by a n agreement
between the Regents of the University of C a l i f o r n i a and
Stephen C. Pepper, dated 5 December 1962. The manuscript
i s thereby made a v a i l a b l e f o r research purposes only by
w r i t t e n permission of Stephen C. Pepper, which is t o be
secured through the o f f i c e of the Librarian of the
University of California a t Berkeley.
A 1 1 l i t e r a r y r i g h t s i n the manuscript, including the
r i g h t t o publish, a r e reserved t o the General Library
of the University of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley. No p a r t
of the manuscript may be quoted f o r publication without
the w r i t t e n permission of the University Librarian of
the University of C a l i f o r n i a at Berkeley.
INTRODUCTION
Stephen C. Pepper, M i l l s Professor of I n t e l l e c t u a l and
Moral Philosophy and C i v i l Polity, Emeritus, has influenced
University thinking i n academic and a e s t h e t i c matters s i n c e
h i s a r r i v a l at the Berkeley campus i n 1919. From 1938 t o
1952 he was chairman of the art department, and from then
u n t i l 1958 he w a s chairman of the philosophy department.
A s a member of many key academic and administrative commit-
t e e s and as a s s i s t a n t dean he had a l a r g e p a r t i n determin-
ing policy i n other departments of the College of L e t t e r s
and Science. H i s point of view has proven s o many times
t o be p a r a l l e l t o t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t s of the University t h a t
he was chosen f o r a decisive position i n educational and
'physical planning f o r the University campus a t an Diego.
Stephen Pepper's long association with the University
and h i s continuing concern f o r its future made him a
n a t u r a l choice as an interviewee f o r the Regional Cultural
History Project. The Project w a s established t o tape-
record autobiographical interviews with persons who have
been i n the growth df Northern California, and
t h i s interview is p a r t of a major s e r i e s on University
ii.
history undertaken because s o much of the growth of t h i s
region has t o do with the University, and because of current
i n t e r e s t i n developing a centennial history of the University.
I t was the recommendation of University Librarian Donald
Coney that interviews be done i n the s p e c i f i c area of campus
c u l t u r a l history, and t h a t we t r e a t f u l l y the l i f e of Stephen
Pepper.
I n these interviews Professor Pepper f i r s t pictures h i s
fauily, h i s traveling childhood, and v a r i e t i e s of schooling.
He describes h i s introduction t o big l e cture-hall teaching
and t o the philosophy department at the University. Taking
p a r t i n an attempt at reconciling the University and Sam Hume
brought him closer t o the important older faculty who were i n
control of the Acade'mic Senate at t h a t time. H e a l s o asso-
: 	 ciated, from the time of h i s a r r i v a l , with the artists
teaching at the University; although a member of the philos-
ophy department, he worked from the f i r s t t o achieve a satis-
factory solution t o the art department's problems. I n 1934,
with Worth Ryder, he formed the A r t s Club which was a s m a l l
s o c i a l group of men i n art and other disciplines who were
a l s o concerned with the t r a d i t i o n a l dilemma of teaching i n
the arts, the history-practice apposition; they sounded out
the ideas that Stephen Pepper had long been formulating.
iii*
There was soon l i t t l e doubt that Stephen Pepper would be the
best choice t o chair the art department, and i n 1938 he took
on that job. The r e s u l t a n t department was a success, and a
model f o r the University and f o r the nation. Later h i s ex-
perience was put t o use i n committees f o r the dramatics and
the decorative arts departments, He began the 1950s with a
vigorous r o l e i n the l o y a l t y oath struggle. In 1953 he be-
came chairrtlan of the philosophy department.
Emeritus s t a t u s i n 1958 meant a change i n t i t l e but
hardly a change i n a c t i v i t y . A succession of invitations
to teach came t o him from other universities. He took on
advisory work f o r the University a t San Diego and at Santa
Cruz and i n doing s o became a v i t a l p a r t of t h e i r history.
A s of t h i s writing, planning f o r a University Museum is
'going ahead so that h i s persistenue i n t h a t area i s close
t o being rewarded. Professor Pepper i n 1963-64 w i l l be
teaching Picture Analysis, the theory and criticism course
of the art department at Berkeley, and then i n the spring
he goes to teach a t W i l l i a m s College,
The interviews, some f i f t e e n hour-and-a-half sessions,
vere held from December 1961 t o May 1962 i n an office i n
Dvinelle H a l l . Professor Pepper generally f i t the interviews
iv.
i n with a busy day on uampus a t committee meetings, so t h a t
i t was o f t e n with a rush t h a t he a r r i v e d f o r the appointment.
While the tape-recorder was being s e t up, he would remove
h i s h a t and s e e what m a i l had a r r i v e d f o r him in the philoso-
phy department o f f i c e ; then, leaning back comfortably, he
would p i c k up the conversational cue and begin t o talk, Talk
was easy and frank, and thoughtful though o f t e n amusing. When
material from the extensive journals he kept at various points
i n h i s l i f e seemed important t o f i n d the f a c t o r t o catch the
f l a v o r of an event, he would bring i t t o the sessions.
After the interviews were transcribed they were e d i t e d
by the interviewer f o r chronology, and then Professor Pepper
f u r t h e r corrected and added t o them. In p a r t i c u l a r he f e l t
t h a t the l o y a l t y oath deserved s p e c i a l a t t e n t i o n t o d e t a i l ,
'and s o i n a d d i t i o n t o the material i n the t r a n s c r i p t he worked
out a calendar of events which is appended t o the manuscript.
An i n v i t a t i o n to help choose pictures t o i l l u s t r a t e the
manuscript was an opportunity t o see Professor Pepper's home,
an older Berkeley house on Buena Vista S t r e e t . The l i v i n g
room, furnished i n w a r m color--soft, red plush-covered sofa,
o l d c h a i r s and o r i e n t a l rugs, many books, paintings--opens
t o balconies o f f two sides, allowing a wide Bay view and a
I
look at extensive gardens below. Beyond the trees, flowers, 

and a healthy vegetable garden is Professor Pepper's study, 

a rough but pleasant little open-beamed building of two rooms 

which is the busy scune of his current writing, a metaphysics 

and an autobiography. 

It is not surprising that a man with Professor Pepper's 

respect for family and history and journal-keeping would be 

writing an autobiography. There are published biographies 

of his father and grandfather [ ~ e o r ~ e 

Dana Boardman Pepper, 

A Biographical Sketch, by Frederick Morgan Padelford, Leroy 

Phillips Publisher, Boston 1914; Charles Hovey Pepper, by 

Joseph Coburn Smith, The Southworth-Anthoensen Press, Port- 

land, Maine 19451, and at some time concurrent with the in- 

terviewing by the Project, Professor Pepper began to compile 

his memoirs. He has not yet decided what he will do with the 

work when it is finished. 

More interviews by the Project in the area of campus 

cultural history are contemplated, Already available is an 

interview with Eugen Neuhaus, professor emeritus of art, and 

in process is an interview with William Wilson Wurster, dean 

emeritus of the College of Environmental Design. Other Project 

interviews with persons connected with the arts, art schools, 

vi. 

and museums in the Northern California region are available 

in The Bancroft Library. The Project is directed by Willa 

Klug Baum and is under the administrative supervision of
Assistant Librarian Julisn Hichel. 

Suzanne B
. Riess, Interviewer 

Regional Cultural History Project 

'Regional Cultural History Project 

Room 486 The General Library 

University of California 

Berkeley, California 

California Monthly, Vol. LXI, No. 9, May '51 vi
F
OR MORE TI-IAN 30 years, sincc
1919 to be cxact, Stcphcn Peppcr
has been a n~cmbcrof thc Uni-
versity faculty. His collcagucs know
him as a warm and genial friend, as
a distinguished writer on
and aesthetics, and as an adnlinistrator
nth0 has l~clpcdto give the University
the look it has to studcnts and alumni.
His studcnts know him in a way
only a few of his younger colleagues
can, as a 'mcn~orablcteacher at all
levels from the introductory lecture
in a big freshman course to thc last,
private, serious discussion of a doc-
toral dissertation. Freshmen usuallv
see him first in a room which seats
morc than five hundred. He appears
thcre on the platform, a tall man
without much hair on to^ of his head.
often dressed in t a ~ e c d s . ' ~ h e ~
hear a
very rich, carrying, easy voice with
a slight New England accent which
docs something to the a's and r's. I re-
call that his "a" in "Kant" was a little
less broad than the "a" in "can't" and
that after a certain lecture members
of the class could be heard asking each
other, "Is it Kant can't or Can't
Kant?"
Thcy like him immensely. For some
years a number of men in his classes
paid him the complimCnt of copying
his ties which were made of s3me
rather rough material in solid blue or
red. The women have always liked him
at least at well as the men. Their typi-
cal reaction may be illustrated by the
incident of the chocolate cake. H e
once used this confection as an illus-
tration in the course of a lecture de-
signed to explain Platonic ideas. Natu-
rally the coeducational members of the
class presented him with a large choc-
olate cake at the next meeting. His
students are obviously responsive to
him i n more than intellectual ways,
But they are also responsive intel-
lectually. There is always in his lec-
turing a most serious and discriminat-
ing and even affectionate understand-
ing of what philosophy is. He once
said to me that when he was a young
instructor he told occasional jokes to
enliven the hour, but that he soon dis-
covered the way to make a lecture go
was to appreciate in yourself the in-
trinsic importance of the material.
There arc vcrv few iokcs nosr. but
thcre is a fine con1n1unication to a
class of the nature and subjcct mattcr
of philosophy. It would be hard to
number the studcnts who first discov-
crcd under hinl the fascination of the
philosophical mind at work and came
to have affection for both the subjcct
and the man.
He was born in New Jersey, an odd
place for one with a New England
heredity, but eight years later he set-
STEPHEN C. PEPPER
tled in Concord, and he still, after
thirty years in California, thinks of
the old town with nostalgia. From two
until eight he lived in Paris where he
rolled hoops in Luxembourg Park and
did other things small boys do in
France, and moreover did them in such
a wholeheartedly Gallic way that his
parents decided to come home and live
in Concord. The house they built
there, a very handsome dwelling, was
up the road from the old Emerson
home, the road where the British sol-
diers marched, on the side of the street
where the Alcotts lived. He learncd to
swim as a matter of course in Walden
Pond .nearby, where Thoreau once
spent an observant and economical
time with good results for literature.
H e grew up in Concord, riding a
long-legged brown pony, collecting
birds' nests and buttcrflics, and hunt-
ing Indian arronrheads. Bccausc these
pursuits were rcgardcd by the local
small boys as less fashionable than
football practice, it was necessary at
times to kccp a wary cyc on the force
of public opinion, but he stayed with
the rivers and ~loods
rather than the
football field and, to use his oarn
words. learned "an earlv lesson in the
~ ~
discipline of standingdby my own
values." He has been standing by those
values ever sincc.
In his iunior vcar at Harvard he
happened to takc a course in ethics
from Professor Palmer and by midyear
had decided to become a philosopher.
It was a case of love at first sirrht as
such matters usually are. Palmer gave
the customary good a d v i c c t h c field
was small and overcrowded, better
look elsewhere. But a few years later,
after much study with Ralph Barton
Perry and numerous contests with an
exceptionally sharp-witted group of
graduate students, he emerged from
Harvard, aDoctor of Philosophy.
After a year of teaching at Welles-
ley and a time, cut short by the armis-
tice, in an Officers' Training Camp of
the first world war, he wrote to Wash-
ington and California asking if there
was a place for a philosopher. Our
University wisely said yes and offered
an assistantship at $650 a year. It
turned out to be a very good bargain.
There are three things most college
professors do. Thcy teach, they write
articles and books, and they takc a
hand in the conduct of the university.
For almost any man the order of im-
portance of these will be different be-
cause each takes a different talent and
preponderance of interest. But with
Stephen Pepper the three are so evenly
balanced that it is difficult to judge
which comes first. His reputation
comes from all three.
His national prestige has brought
him the honorary degree of Doctor of
Humane Letters from Colby and has
resulted ina number of offers of lucra-
tive and distinguished positions, of
which it is not, by a very reasonable
convention, polite to speak in detail.
His publications have had a great
deal to do with this prestige. His ma-
jor works are "Aesthetic Quality," an
(Plen~e
turn to pngc 30j
viii.
Professor Pepper
important step in the development of
pragmatic or contextualistic aesthet-
ics; "World Hypotheses," an exciting
book which examines and criticizes
the bases of philosophies which are at
present important; "The Bases of
Criticism in the Arts," a book made
from a series of lectures at Harvard,
of great value to people who wish to
understand the ideas that lie behind
the practice of criticism; and "Princi-
ples of Art Appreciation," a big book
published in 1949, which contains
much of his thinking over many
years about the nature of critical prin-
ciples and their application to art.
There are also many articles and re-
views which. like the books, show a
man who is a leader in his field. All of
this activity in publication is paral-
leled by a continuous, vital, unin-
hibited discussion of philosophy with
his colleagues and students which is in
itself a kind of publication.
Among the many administrative
positions he has held, the one closest
to his heart is the chairmanship of the
Art department, a job which requires
constructive sagacity and resourceful-
ness. Since 1938, when he was made
Chairman, he has created a depart-
ment which, unlike the usual univer-
sity department of art, puts great em-
phasis on learning how to paint with
all that implies and makes instruction
in painting at least the equal of his-
torical and critical study. His inten-
tion has been to make a policy for an
art department which will be suitable
not only for California but for art
departments in general. Evidences
from other universities shows that he
has been successful, and the California
Art department which is made up of
unusually talented painters and his-
torians is, largely as a result of his
policies, one of the most distinguished
in the nation.
His old friends on the faculty know
all about these achievements and ap-
preciate them, but most of them like
him best when he appears in a more in-
formal way as the leader of a unique
organization called The Arts Cltrb
which he created and has sustained. It
is a dinner club whose monthly meet-
~,
ings reflect the personality of its men-
tor, always called Father Stephen, in .
convivial eating and drinking, high
spirits, wit, and serious discussions of
serious papers on the arts. There he
shows qualities that are proved many
times over the years and that only
long standing among old friends can
give. They are various and widespread,
but they can be summarized. He is a
man of rich experience and good
humor, a loyal friend and a wise one.
!PhiIo$ophy Scmbl-#T;- 1
+a
Succumbs ~ . & ~ ~ t , 8 1
Steph& C
. Pepper, w c d ~ . ~ m ; i a ~ ~ &
an -inter- A i c s ~
$:.
d '
,,nationally-known philosophical and.befiblished Cmuinberhooks;
Yeb~ar
and former chairmanof two on these and related subjeds.
!$e$artments her! died Monday at Among.. hb mb
"the age of 81. "Aesthetic Quality.". published
B""ment in 1958. getting painting and sculpture'
Pepper was a leading scholar of teachers here recognized as full: '
'psthetics and the philosophy of art,
. . ,
,
,
,
fledged faculty members:-
_---
*n .
. .%
I*-
.SP&.4- LCcJ. -BOOKS . +
- - A F F ~ ~ I A ~ O N S
--
,-
*
. -
-
-7
'
F
m y 9,m
a After leaving UC in 1958, He belonged t o 2 t y seho-
I Professor , 'Dr. Pepper bacame the, bstic societia includingthe
Mills professor of intellec- 'American Philsos@cal 4s-
tual and moral philosophy sociation, the American So-
I
and civll policy. In that ca- ciety f or Aesthetics; the
Stephen C.
pacity he had been lecturing American Academy of Arts
at various universities until and Sciences and the Inter-
/ Pepper dies last +ear. .national Ipstitute of Philoso-
Dr. Pepper wrote s i x P ~ Y .
., Stephen C. Pepper, the .Books, the latest published He is s-y by two
.University of California pro- in 1961 .and entitled "Con- daughters, Elizabeth Wood
fessor who once referred to kept and Quality." . of Gainesville, 'fla., and
the Richmond -San Rafael / In 1957 he was named fiances of
Bridge as an "esthetic dis- UC's Faculty Research Let- Grand View, N.Y.; and a .
'aster," died of cancer on ,wer, one of the highest dis- Eunice Langendach
Monday. He was 81. ,of 2718 Buena Vista way,
ltinCtions bestowed On a UC
Dr. Pepper had been a ' lfaculty member. Berkeley. Dr. pepper's m e ,
,member of the UC Berkeley Ellen, died last year.'
faculty from 1919to 1958and Dr. Pepper was born at , private serviC+-
*funeri1
,&ad served for many years hewark, N-J-9 on A P ~ will be held at Sunsetmu-:.
29,
'as chairman of the Art and
$891. !ay
in El Cerrits. B
& will
Departments. "be at the family plot in'
d
His main areas of scholar- S1e e p y Hollow, .COnbord,
Mass. ' % ,$' .
1
The family has iGie&d.
at-donations bq sedtdteither
'
UNICEFor toc ~ g f
'
... - -? , .
.
" > C
Fhard-lteaded m en" who
'$,uilt it should have taken
into c~nsideration"the cost
'to men's eyes and .feelings
$hat the structure will incur
for generations to come.''
gs to say for the Embar-
I
i x .
TABLE O
F CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION i.
Our Distinguished Faculty. Professor Stephen C.
Pepper, by Cordon McKenzie v i i .
TABU O
F CONTEXTS ix.
FAMILY, CHILDHOOD,AND TRAVELS
Father, Charles Hovey Pepper, and American
Artists i n the 1880s
Childhood in Paris
Boston A r t Club
Living i n Concord, Massachusetts
Schooling i n Concord
To Japan. 1902
EDUCATION
Preparing t o Enter Harvard
Undergraduate Years at Harvard
-
Marriage and Travel, 1914
f
Graduate Work a t Harvard
World War I - Officer of the Day
LJNIVER!;ITY O
F CALIFORMIA - 1919
Job Offers
Honor System
Faculty Revolution
Philosophy Department
Sam Hume and the Creek Theater
Background
Asked t o Leave
Another Try
English Club
THE ART DEPARTMENT
Background
1925-1935
Ryder and Neuhaus and Washburn
Pepper Talks t o Sproul and Washburn
Hans Hofmann and Summer Sessions
A Standby Committee Formed
Modern A r t Becomes More Acceptable
1934-1938
History of A r t Courses
A r t s Club
Rearrangement of Power i n the University
Hew Chairman Sought
Pepper's Chairmanship, 1938-1952
Hew Organization of Practice Courses:
Artists and Ph.D.s 

S t a f f and Teaching Problems Met 

Ph.D. i n A r t History 

Problems i n Allied Departinents 

A r t Education and Schaefer-Simmern 

Decorative A r t 

TKE LOYALTY OATH
OTHER UNIVERSITY INTERESTS
Pepper's Ideas Taken Up Elsewhere
Department of Dramatic A r - t
College of Environmental Design
Department of English
Appreciation Courses
Criticism and Theory Courses
xi. 

Philosophy's Place i n the Curriculum
Buildings and Campus Development Committee
A University Museum
A s s i s t a n t Dean
PERSONAL LIFE 

I c e Skating: 

Family 

Religion 

Writing a Metaphysics 

SINCE RETIREMENT

V i s i tin^ Professor 

Work a t San Dieao 

Background of Pepper's I n t e r e s t 

The College Plan 

Recruitment 

Santa Cruz Campus S i t e
APPENDICES
, A. 	 A Brief H i s t o r i c a l Account of the Berkeley
A r t Department
B
.	S p e c i a l Bibliography
C
.	 Calendar of Events on Loyalty Oath from
January 1949 t o A p r i l 21, 1950-
D
.	Education and Human Values
PARTIAL INDEX
FAMILY, CHILDHOOD, AND TRAVELS
Father, Charles Hovey Pepper, and American Artists i n
the 1980s
Pepper: M
y f a t h e r and mother came from the middle of Maine. She
was from Skowhegan and my f a t h e r was from Waterville. H i s
f a t h e r was f o r a time president of Colby College. Colby
College was college f o r a l l the family on both s i d e s
u n t i l I came along and went t o t h a t God-forsaken place,
Harvard. [~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Riess: But you did go back t o Colby?
Pepper: Yes, I g o t an honorary degree there. They made me one of
the f o l d i n an honorary wise. [ ~ o c t o rof Humane L e t t e r s 19501
Riess: How old is Colby?
Pepper: Oh, q u i t e old compared t o t h i s University. I discovered t h a t
when I was a delegate t h i s last year a t the Tulane inaugura-
t i o n of t h e i r new presidant. The c h a i r s where we came i n were
arranged i n the order of the o r i g i n of the u n i v e r s i t i e s and
colleges. Of course, Harvard was way f r o n t , and where was
California? I had a long hunt; i t was s o much newer than
I had realized. And Colby goes back -- [ t o 18131.
Riess: Is your family English?
Pepper: Of English o r i g i n , y e s . . *Mayflower" on m
y mother's side. A
whole s t a c k of them. And m
y f a t h e r ' s ancestry came and
s e t t l e d i n the west of Massachusetts about 1730, around i n
there. So it's an old, old New England family on both s i d e s .
But the r e a l point here is t h a t m
y f a t h e r became a
p a i n t e r a f t e r graduating from Colby.
Riess: Where d i d he study painting?
Pepper: 	 Well, t h a t ' s it. He went t o study painting a f t e r studying
with a p a i n t e r i n Augusta, Alger V. Currier. H i s biography,
by the way, is i n our Library here -- a t l e a s t I gave them a
copy and I t r u s t it's there. Charles Hovey Pepper.* This
was a s h o r t biography w r i t t e n by a cousin of h i s , which
gives a l o t of these d e t a i l s which I w i l l have forgotten.
He went down t o study i n New York and they took
inexpensive housing i n New Jersey, and t h a t ' s where I w a s
born, i n Newark. They were married very s h o r t l y after h i s
graduation.
Riess: Vhat had he studied at Colby?
Peppert Oh, the regular A.B. curriculum. They had no art there. In
f a c t , u n i v e r s i t i e s had no art u n t i l almost the 20th century.
He s t u d i e d a f a i r l y good curriculum with an A.B. but he was
i n t e r e s t e d i n art and he painted and drew, drew very cleverly.
You w i l l almost s u r e l y hear t h a t he g o t t h i s from h i s mother.
She did some paintings, a lady's paintings, the kind of things
they did at t h a t time, and she painted china very well. But
I guess i t was more than that.
Riess: 	 What had h i s f a t h e r done?
Pepper: 	 He was a B a p t i s t minister, Northern Baptist, which is r a t h e r
an i n t e l l e c t u a l type of B a p t i s t , which should be q u i t e
d e f i n i t e l y distinguished from the fundamentalist Southern
Baptists. The Horthern B a p t i s t s a r e very close t o the
Congregationalists. The only difference t h a t I can f i n d
out, having been brought up i n i t , is t h a t you were expected
t o be f u l l y immersed i n the Baptists. I n the Congregational
Church you can s p r i n k l e water on and i t ' s j u s t as good.
[~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Riess: 	 The family must have r a i s e d its hands i n horror when your
f a t h e r decided t o become a painter.
*Charles Hovey Pepper, by Joseph Coburn Smith. Portland,
Maine. The Southworth-Anthoensen Press, 1945.
Pepper: 	 No, no. They were, s o far as I can f i n d , r a t h e r pleased.
The money s i d e didn't come i n too s e r i o u s l y because t h e r e
was money i n my mother's family. That family, n o t d i r e c t l y
her f a t h e r , was connected with a group of the family t h a t
were very wealthy i n lumber. There was money there, s o t h a t
there was no problem of h i s having t o support himself. I t
was not much but it was enough.
And he was able t o g e t married r i g h t a f t e r college and
then studied at the Hew York A r t Student's League f o r two
years. I was born apparently j u s t about when they came down
there, because when I was two years old they went t o P a r i s
where he studied f o r the remaining s i x years. I guess they
would have stayed longer i f they hadn't thought t h a t , well,
I was "getting t o an ageN -- the boy is, you see -- %here
he ought to be going t o school if he's going t o be an
A r n e r i ~ a n , ~
and they had seen children of no country around
and they d i d n ' t want me t o be l i k e that. So I think it was
on account of the c h i l d t h a t they came back t o America. A l l
m
y e a r l y l i f e was Paris.
Riess: 	 Do you remember it?
Pepper: 	 Oh, yes. It's amazing how vivid those e a r l y memories are. I
don't spot any memory before m
y four-year-old birthday, but
probably I have others. You can't date them very well, but
a birthday you date.
Riess: 	 Usually i s n ' t i t the unhappy memories t h a t stand out?
Pepper: 	 Well, t h i s was very happy. Strangely enough, I think it's
the happy ones t h a t stand out. Oh, t h e r e a l l y unhappy ones
a r e l i k e l y t o stand out too, unless they a r e too severe and
they're repressed. And I d i d have some of those, I discovered
l a t e r -- I've been analyzed, s o I ' v e discovered some two-
year-old memories, a very remarkable thing. I d i d have some
experiences there, but I think those s t a y with the psycho-
analyst. I had both kind, but what I do remember, s o t o
Pepper: 	 speak objectively, as a person writing a biography without
the benefit of technical treatment [laughing], starts out
with a very pleasant four-year-old memory, and a l o t of
pleasant memories of driving tops and pushing hoops around
and going t o the gardens, s a i l i n g l i t t l e boats i n the Luxem-
bourg Gardens. It's i n t e r e s t i n g that I believe somewhere i n
there I was s e n t t o a French school, and I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n
of i t a t a l l , j u s t maybe a vague sense of cold -- they didn't
have me there long, apparently, but it didn't work. I vas
s i x or seven, I believe,
Riess: 	 W
a
s your mother taking care of you?
Pepper: 	 Oh, yes, but a l s o everybody had nursemaids, and I have many
pleasant memories of the s e r i e s of cooks t h a t we had there,
and there would a l s o , when I was younger, be nursemaids, too,
I imagine t h a t they would never l e t me out alone i n those
c i t y parks, although they gave me an awful l o t of freedom;
t h a t is, when we were a t the Luxembourg Gardens whoever was
with me would be sitting on a bench somewhere and I wouldn't
be thinking much about them.
Then we spent two very pleasant summers i n Holland.
, 	 That was along, I guess, about f i v e and seven, perhaps.
There was a group of my f a t h e r ' s f r i e n d s t h a t went there, s o
i t produced a l i t t l e summer art colony. There was a painter
there, a t t h a t time well known, older than they -- they'd
be i n t h e i r twenties t o t h i r t i e s o r s o -- a man-in h i s
t h i r t i e s o r f o r t i e s who had already a reputation. And there
must have been money there because they had a b e a u t i f u l
e s t a t e halfway between Egmond, where we were l i v i n g , and
Alkmaar. Egmond-an-den-Hoef and Alkmaar . It i s n 't very
far because we went back t o v i s i t i t by c a r the other year.
It's only about ten miles from Alkmaar t o Egmond, but with
a horse i t would be a n hour and a h a l f , probably, Remember,
those a r e the days of horses.
Pepper: Well, t h i s man l i v e d l i k e a n Englishman, although I
think he was an American, and h i s name was George Hitchcock.
He was enough well known s o t h a t maybe you've seen a
frequently reproduced p i c t u r e of Dutch girls i n t u l i p gardens.
This was t h e man t h a t did i t ; i t was a very famous p i c t u r e a t
the time -- t h i s painting would be about 1890.
Riess: 	 Who were the other p a i n t e r f r i e n d s of your f a t h e r ? Americans?
Pepper: 	 They were Americans, a l l of thq as I think of it. One of
them became very well known. He was a colored man, Henry 0.
Tanner. Pictures of h i s y o u ' l l f i n d i n s e v e r a l art museums.
He'd be i n any h i s t o r y , among the second groups -- not a
Winslow Homer, but he'd be there. Also another man, j u s t
about as prominent, Gari Melchers. These were g r e a t f r i e n d s
of m
y father. M
y f a t h e r was darned good, but he didn't q u i t e
make the rank of these; he had a very f i n e l o c a l reputation
around New England and somewhat down i n New York, but he
- didn't q u i t e make the grade of these men.
Riess: H e was happy painting though, and not struggling.
Pepper: Oh, yes, but he, of course, would have l i k e d t o have been a
g r e a t American painter.
Riessa 	 The reason then t h a t your f a t h e r and these people were i n
P a r i s was because t h i s was the place t o study a r t ?
Pepper: That's the place where you studied art then, and he went t o
the J u l i a n School, which was the place t o go, a place where
many went -- these men, these f r i e n d s of h i s , I guess they
a l l went t o the J u l i a n School off and on.
Another g r e a t f r i e n d of h i s -- he wasn't i n t h i s crowd,
he was picked up l a t e r -- has become one of the b i g American
names, and t h a t t s Prendergast. And by the way, because the
J u l i a n School i s n o t far from the a r c h i t e c t u r e school there,
one of the people t h a t he saw q u i t e often, chummed with,
w a s Maybeck. That's h i s generation.
Riess: 	 Did he know Maybeck afterwards?
1
+
Pepper: 	 He d i d n ' t meet him again u n t i l m
y parents came v i s i t i n g me
here, and Maybeck s a i d t o m
y f a t h e r , nYou owe m
e a tam-o-
shanter." M
y f a t h e r s a i d , "How come?n He never had any
r e c o l l e c t i o n of the tam-o-shanter, but i f he thought he d i d
he would g e t him one, s o he did. That shows t h a t they had
some kind of racy times together.
Riess: 	 Do you remember these men?
Pepperr 	 Oh, Maybeck was a neighbor.* Maybeck and Prendergast were
not among the people t h a t came t o t h e house very much. But,
yes, I do remember very well a l o t of them: Tanner and Dye
-- these a r e a l l competent men, but Tanner you hear of, Dye
I think kind of disappeared. Dye was one of these r a t h e r
slovenly-dressed men with long h a i r and a l l that. Most a l l
of those men wore beards i n those days; m
y f a t h e r did, m
y
grandfather did, and i t ' s coming back now, apparently. The
exceptional one wzs the clean-shaven man i n those days. So
m
y f a t h e r had a van Dyke. But there was a man, Frank Bicknell,
and as a k i d I remember him very well because he was a dude.
He had a cane and gray gloves, and I guess very often a
tall hat, c e r t a i n l y a bowler. He would leave h i s cane
, 	 across h i s gloves out i n the h a l l , and t h a t fascinated me.
One day m
y mother came out t o m
y enormous embarrassment and
caught m
e p u t t i n g h i s gloves on. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
Riess: 	 Would a l l these people go out t o the country t o sketch?
Pepper: 	 Yes. They had s t u d i o s and I guess a l l of them did both
landscape and f i g u r e painting, though Tanner i s best known
f o r h i s f i g u r e painting. M
y f a t h e r did both. He g o t known
as a landsoapist, he hated t o do p o r t r a i t s . It's very hard
t o please the family c
f the p o r t r a i t . He was r a t h e r thin-
skinned at t h i s c r i t i c i s m of h i s not giving pleasure and
*~ e r n a r dMaybeck w a s a neighbor of the Peppers i n Berkeley.
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

I
s a t i s f a c t i o n ; i t bothered him a l o t . But he painted a l o t
of p o r t r a i t s . When he died there was a retrospective show
at t h e Boston Museum and I saw probably about h a l f of them
which he'd done i n h i s l i f e t i m e gathered together i n t h i s
e x h i b i t and I was amazed. He r e a l l y was an awfully good
p o r t r a i t painter. He was known f o r h i s watercolors mostly,
which he was very s k i l f u l 1 at, p o e t i c a l things. He didnl t
have the power...well, you can s e e I think i t was p r e t t y
darned good, but I must admit he was no Winslow Homer.
W
a
s the J u l i a n School a c l a s s i c a l education i n a r t ?
Yes, t h i s would have been a c l a s s i c a l art education, but
many of the men, and Prendergast would be one, revolted.
I n f a c t some of the most prominent French p a i n t e r s were
J u l i a n School men t h a t revolted. I don't know whether
Cezanne was one. Well, m
y f a t h e r d i d n ' t take i t ; he h a l f
revolted, s o t h a t he was regarded as a r a d i c a l and h i s
p i c t u r e s were with d i f f i c u l t y appreciated i n the e a r l y p a r t
of h i s e a r l y showings. Then he g o t t o be thought of as a
conservative, s o he j u s t missed, i n a c e r t a i n way, both.
I don1t think you could say he g o t i n on both. Some of
h i s f r i e n d s have s a i d t h a t i f he had been a poor man he
might have been a b e t t e r painter. I think probably a l l
t h a t means i s t h a t he might have been a p a i n t e r who would
s e e t o i t t h a t h i s things sold more. He c e r t a i n l y had
t a l e n t enough, but he didn't s e l l much and he d i d n ' t make
an awful l o t of e f f o r t to. He had a l o t of one-man shows,
a l o t of good reviews. He was a man of very high l o c a l
reputation.
The most important thing he did was h i s p a r t i n
introducing modern art t o Boston. 1'11 t a l k more about
t h a t when w
e g e t t o our r e t u r n t o America. But he was
regarded as an arts r a d i c a l i n Boston at t h a t time, and
Pepper: 	 n a t u r a l l y he consorted with the r e l a t i v e l y advanced l i b e r a l
p a i n t e r s , s o t o speak, i n Boston. The academic conservative
grou? were very angry with him. There was a r e a l tension
between what you might c a l l the moderns and the conservative
older people, and by a curious s e r i e s of circumstances I
think they f e l t s o secure t h a t they d i d n ' t s e e t h a t there
was a chance of g e t t i n g a young r a d i c a l i n t o a prominent
position i n the Boston A r t Club. They had t h e i r own show-
room, the conservatives did, which were the Benson and
Tarbell group. Very good conservatives they were, i n the
manner of the Dutch p a i n t e r s , which was a conservative thing
a t t h a t time. Tarbell and Benson were the most prominent
names there.
Riess: 	 A l l these people t h a t we speak of studied abroad?
Pepper: Oh, undoubtedly. You couldn' t g e t much i n America. In
f a c t , I would guess t h ~ t
even Winslow Homer had a whack over
there, though he i s as near t o an indigenous American
p a i n t e r of a b i g name as I would know. This was an awfully
uncultivated country. With New York now the center of
c u l t i v a t i o n of the world, i t i s hard t o r e a l i z e t h a t j u s t
, a l i t t l e while back.. ,
Boston had a kind of provincial c u l t i v a t i o n , but
mainly i n l i t e r a t u r e . A good t r d d i t i o n of l i t e r a t u r e , but
no musicians who amounted t o much, and very few painters,
and those t h e r e were were very much i n the English t r a d i t i o n ,
except Winslow Homer who wasn't y e t appreciated. It was
Copley and S t u a r t and those men who were the American
p a i n t e r s they thought o f , and they were good, second-rate
Reynoldses and Gainsboroughs, you see, and had t h e i r
training i n England, o r if n o t i n England from men who
immediately did. I think both S t u a r t and Copley g o t t h e i r
t r a i n i n g i n England. Benjamin West was more o r l e s s the
Pepper; 	 same thing. He was a self-trained man, but y o u ' l l f i n d
t h a t he's following the same t r a d i t i o n , and m
y guess is
t h a t he g o t h i s t r a i n i n g e i t h e r d i r e c t l y o r i n d i r e c t l y from
men l i k e Copley. So t h a t was the American t r a d i t i o n . It's
a very thin. ..
I think the most i n t e r e s t i n g s t u f f i n America was what
was regarded as no-account then, what they a r e c o l l e c t i n g
now, and t h d t ' s the traveling folk-painters. These were
t r a v e l i n g craftsmen who'd come t o your house and p a i n t
your p o r t r a i t , and very o f t e n they would have a body a l l
painted and j u s t p a i n t your head onto it. Some of them a r e
swell. Colby College had a very f i n e c o l l e c t i o n given t o
them. They a r e thoroughly primitive; these men were not
bothered by t r a d i t i o n o r anything l i k e t h a t , and they
occasionally did very vivid pictures. They a r e genuine
primitives.
Riess: 	 P r i m i t i v e s inevery country have such an amazing s i m i l a r i t y .
Pepper: Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t . They haven't the greatness of the well-
trained men, they haven't g o t the depth and a l l t h a t , but
s h o r t of t h a t they a r e l i k e children's paintings, they a r e
' s t r i k i n g and uncontaminated by convention, s o t o speak.
That's why they a r e liked, they come r i g h t out of human
sensuous f e e l i n g s of proportion and c o n t r a s t and human
vividness. If t h e r e ' s a c e r t a i n f e a t u r e t h a t s t r i k e s them,
why, t h e y ' l l paint t h a t good and bright and t h a t ' l l be there
and y o u ' l l see it. We're beginning t o appreciate them now.
But t h i s country was very, very weak i n painting and
music and sculpture. It w a s lucky i n its architecture;
t h a t was a g r e a t period of a r c h i t e c t u r e , copies from England;
they took those e a r l y buildings off of books. The l i t e r a t u r e
was the ~ n l y
thing t h a t we were cultivated i n , and t h a t was
mostly centered i n Boston and i n some of the Southern c i t i e s ,
Peppert
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Peppert 

Charleston, I believe. There were c u l t i v a t e d 1
1t e r a r y t r a d i t i o n s
i n two p l a c e s here. So i f anybody g o t i n t e r e s t e d i n painting,
of course they went t o Europe -- i n f a c t , i n t e r e s t e d i n any
c u l t i v a t e d thing. I t was s t i l l thought% thing if you
could do i t t o get your degree i n Europe, and as y o u ' l l s e e ,
I s t a r t e d t o a l s o , But t h a t was near the end. That war i n
1914 s e t t l e d i t , and from then on t h e r e was no g r e a t advan-
tage i n having a European degree, and t h e r e were even some
disadvantages. But t h a t was the place t o go study art, t h e r e
was no question about it.
W
a
s t h e r e as much study i n England as t h e r e was on the conti-
nent?
No. There's another very funny thing about England. They,
with the exception of the p o r t r a i t group of ReyncUs and
Gainsborough and Romney, were second-rate van Dykes. So
t h a t when you g e t Copley you've g o t a third-rate van Dyke.
Gainsborough did some p r e t t y s w e l l s t u f f , but t h e first
p a i n t e r of r e a l power i n England I ' d say was Constable, and
then Turner. England f o r some reason was very i n s e n s i t i v e
t o painting.
And these a r e both landscapists.
These a r e both landscapists. Of course, y o u ' l l have some
of t h e f i n e s t work of Holbein, both drawings and p a i n t i n g s
of t h e English a r i s t o c r a c y about Henry VIII's time, but
these fellows would come over and p a i n t these t h i n g s and
they'd go back. England was awfully i n s e n s i t i v e . She had
a f i n e period of music i n Shakespeare's time, and then music
went out. England has been a l i t t l e b i t l i k e America. I t
is suprising. And I suppose we took t h a t over i n p a r t .
Well, of course, i t ' s changed now, something has happened,
and I think i n England too.
One o f the f i n e s t landscape p a i n t e r s of England is a
Pepper: 	 fellow named Bonniston. You don't o f t e n hear of him. A
contemporary of Corot, much f i n e r than Corot, but he did
a l l h i s paintings i n Europe. He wasn't awfully p r o l i f i c
though what he did was swell. But he is i d e n t i f i e d with t h e
French p a i n t e r s j u s t as Van Cogh is i d e n t i f i e d as a French
painter.
Childhood i n P a r i s
Pepper: 	 Now, I should say some things about the r e l a t i o n t o my f a t h e r
i n c u l t i v a t i o n , because looking back upon i t he did a wonder-
f u l job of c u l t i v a t i n g the values of the v i s u a l arts i n me.
I was dr4gged through those museums, and of course a k i d ' s
!
a t t e n t i o n span is not very g r e a t . This is back i n Paris.
And vhen they would t r a v e l down t o Florence o r somewhere
they1d take me along. Well, what e l s e could they do with
me? They wanted t o s e e the pictures, s o they'd drag m
e
through the U f f i z i and the P i t t i . I can remember these more
o r l e s s , M
y f a t h e r i n s t i t u t e d a game, how e a r l y I don't
know; we vould go i n t o a rocm and he would say, "Well, aow,
you look around i n t h i s room, and you look c a r e f u l l y and
pick out the three b e s t pictures. " And I ' d look around and
I ' d ,pick out the three b e s t p i c t u r e s , f o r me. Well, t h a t
would take q u i t e a l i t t l e while.
Riess: 	 Because i t was very serious.
Pepper: Oh, yes, t h i s was s e r i o u s -- well, they would often be p r e t t y
funny p i c t u r e s , I'm sure. Then he would t e l l me h i s and I
would t e l l mine. Never, never, would he ever say anything
about m
y choices being wrong o r bad. They vere j u s t d i f f e r -
> e n t , t h a t was all. "Well, why did you choose those?" I
would explain somewhat. Then he'd t e l l me why he chose his.
But do you s e e what a marvelous game i t was? The r e s u l t was
- . I
Pepperr 	 t h a t m
y memory of g a l l e r i e s is excitement, I never go t o a
c i t y but the first thing I do is go t o a g a l l e r y .
Well, he did other things. He was c o l l e c t i n g Japanese
p r i n t s i n Paris. The influence from Japanese p r i n t s was j u s t
coming in. he^ were coming i n through b a l e s of tea. These
were r a t h e r valueless t o the Japs and they'd throw in a
bunch of then and maybe they might g e t a l i t t l e out of them.
The t e a shops would put these p r i n t s up i n the window. Father
t e l l s a s t o r y t h a t he was r i d i n g on the top of one of those
buses, b e a u t i f u l three-horse buses with an u p s t a i r s , and
n a t u r a l l y you went and sat i n the u p s t a i r s . He was s i t t i n g
on one of those and going through the l i t t l e narrow rue de
Havre. He looked out the window and there i n a teashop he
saw these p i c t u r e s t h a t he had never seen the l i k e of before.
Now, those boys were craving the opposite of what they were
g e t t i n g i n the art school. Composition and color, shapes,
l i n e s , and those things were n o t being emphasized. It was
the realism and the tone and t h a t s o r t of thing. Well, he
g o t r i g h t down out of t h a t bus and went i n and he bought
two o r three, This was the same influence t h a t h i t Van Gogh
and Gauguin, you can see i t very prominently i n both those
men.
Riessx And Whistler?
Pepper: And Whister, yes. Whis&rts of the same background as m
y
f a t h e r , a l i t t l e older, I think, maybe about ten years older.
But t h i s came i n j u s t t h a t time and these men g o t h i t by it.
I think P a r i s is where i t first came, because t h a t ' s where
the big c o l l e c t i o n s began. M
y f a t h e r began c o l l e c t i n g be-
cause he d i d n ' t have much money and they d i d n ' t c o s t much.
I n f a c t , he had about 100 p r i n t s when we came back t o t h i s
country. He s a w t 6 i t t h a t I g o t i n t e r e s t e d i n these, I g o t
excited, and he gave me one o r two as mine. One was of a
l i t t l e caockfight with some hens and cocks around, j u s t t h e
Pepp'er :
Riess: 

Pepper: 

. ,
kind a k i d would l i k e , you know, n o t a very important p r i n t
but i t was m
y own and i t was Japanese, the same as m
y f a t h e r
was g e t t i n g .
Well, I ' d wanted t o bring t h a t out, t h a t there was a
background of very r i c h appreciation of painting and excite-
ment about i t , the v i s u a l arts. Sculpture the same way.
And d i d you f e e l gradually t h a t your values were becoming
l i k e h i s i n these museum v i s i t s ?
Well, I wasn't thinking of i t t h a t way, but of course they
were. That is, I began t o s e e -- these were discriminations,
he was seeing things I wasn't, and he'd point these out t o m
e
-- gradually I began t o s e e them, and i f you s e e them -- of
course t h e r e ' s a l o t of maturity comes i n which I d i d n ' t
have -- if you s e e them they w i l l have an e f f e c t . So I
guess I had f a i r l y good t a s t e even whep I came home, but
i t wouldn't have the maturity of an older person.
Now, you see, I g o t i n t e r e s t e d i n p r i n t s and I knew
something about painting, but I d i d n ' t know much about boys.
It was a p r e t t y lonely l i f e I had. There was a l i t t l e g i r l
I remember playing with on the beaches -- well, m
y grandmother
and my aunt came over f o r a summer, o r a winter, and they took
me down t o one of the beaches around Nice, There was t h i s
l i t t l e g i r l , and I played with her. I remember t h a t as very
pleasant. Up i n t h e summer i n Holland I used t o play around
with the Dutch kids and I wore sabots. M
y mother dressed me
l i k e a l i t t l e Dutch kid, wisely enough, and I have the l i t t l e
wooden shoes still, But I a l s o remember a g r e a t deal of
going off with a nurse over the dunes and t h a t would be a
lonely thing, s o t h a t m
y playing with kids even i n Holland
was not much. However, I must have played a good deal with
them because I g o t deathly s i c k there of some kind of
stomach business and m
y mother t e l l s the s t o r y t h a t the kids
discovered I was s i c k and she opened the door -- she hadn't
1 Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

heard any noise at a l l -- and there a l l a c r o s s the doorstep
were flowers t h a t the c h i l d r e n had brought f o r me, I suppose
I oould t a l k a l i t t l e Dutch, Of course, I was talking French
l i k e any French kid,
When you were playing i n the Luxembourg Gardens i n P a r i s ,
would t h a t be everybody with t h e i r nursemaids?
Oh, you would play with your l i t t l e boat. I had no childhood
f r i e n d s t h a t I remember a t all. There'd be a l i t t l e r i v a l r y
with watching the boats and there'd be t a l k around the edge,
t h a t kind of thing.
W
a
s t h i s the usual s o c i a l set-up, the way things were arranged?
Not with French kids, no, but t h a t was what happened t o me.
And I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e p a r t i c u l a r l y what it was l i k e there. I
r e a l i z e d l a t e r i n another way, but i t is a p r e t t y lonely l i f e
r e a l l y . One of the b i g games I played, and i t still
f a s c i n a t e s me, was l e a d , s o l d i e r s . A box of n i c e lead s o l d i e r s
s t i l l makes a t h r i l l with me.
O f course, the French and t h e Germans were keeping t h e i r
armies up i n grand s t a t e , and every day you'd see a company
of French s o l d i e r s go by. W
e l i v e d over i n the so-called
Latin Quarter, but i n a very n i c e place. This was no Bohemi-
a n l i v i n g at all. W
e were n o t awfully f a r from a parade
f i e l d , s o these companies of s o l d i e r s would go by, and t h a t
is the time when the o f f i c e r s rode horseback.
So i t w a s a decorative s o r t of spectacle.
Yes, but i t a l s o meant business,and f o r a boy shooting a
gun or pretending t o shoot a gun o r playing with s o l d i e r s
t h a t pretend to shoot guns, t h a t means something. M
y mother
had l e t me have a t a b l e i n one of the bedrooms, and I must
have had q u i t e a l o t of s o l d i e r s , and a l s o I had a f i r e
engine set-up and I had a hunter set-up and a farm set-up.
One of the g r e a t games was blocks, l i t t l e stone blocks,
German-made they were, blue and yellow and pink. I ' d b u i l d
Pepper: e s t a t e s with these, and there would be a head man, who I
suppose was me, and i t would take days t o g e t t h i s thing
going and g e t r e t a i n e r s and all. I didn't f i g h t wars so
much. It was building up these e s t a t e s t h a t fascinated
me most, though there was a war-like element i n the back-
ground. Then i t was knocked down s o simply, knowing well
enough i t was the building up t h a t was the fun, s t i l l t h i s
was destroying i t and I ' d b u i l t it,
Riess: Even i f you had knocked i t down --
Pepper: Well, i t wouldn't be me. It was some g i r l who came i n o r
one of m
y f a t h e r ' s friends. One of the things t h a t annoyed
me very much were these f r i e n d s of my f a t h e r ' s who would
come in. They got me r a i l r o a d t r a i n s , wind-up, you know,
n i c e switches and things. Then they would send me o f f t o
bed and play with them. I could hear them running around.
[ ~ a ~ h i n ~ ]
I t was unfair.
Another thing I did was t o drive horses. M
y parents
g o t me f o r a Christmas present a b e a u t i f u l l i t t l e horse,
stood about t h i s high, with r e a l horse s k i n and h a i r and a
b r i d l e and saddle. Thz b r i d l e came off and the saddle
came o f f , but the l i t t l e c h e s t thing was p l a s t e r e d on. When
they went t o Holland they always put away t h e i r rugs and
woolens and things, and I asked them why they were doing
that. Well, t o keep the moths out. I can remember the
smell of mothballs. I s a i d I thought they had b e t t e r put
m
y horse away. "Oh, no, t h e r e ' s no need t o put the horse
away." But when we came back the moths had eaten a l l the
f u r o f f up t o t h i s l i n e here where the s t r a p was, from there
back. Well, i t d i d n ' t bother me s o very much. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
Riess: Did you have paper and pencils and do sketching and things
l i k e that?
Pepper: I did some, but even at t h a t age I f e l t t h a t I was no r i v a l
f o r m
y father. It could have taken e i t h e r way; I might have
imitated him, but I took the other way. I wasn't competing.
I
Pepper: 	 I t probably had something t o do with m
y going off i n another
d i r e c t i o n e n t i r e l y . I was b u i l t d i f f e r e n t l y . Why one man's
a p a i n t e r and a.nother~saphilosophero r an i n t e l l e c t u a l kind
of man.., But I kept the bridge t o a e s t h e t i c s .
W
e came back t o America when I was eight. M
y parents
f i r s t thought they might q e t a place up near t h e i r family
but not i n the town. They were wise about t h a t , They were
thinking of something on the Kennebec River. They looked
a t two o r three places there. They took me on some of t h e i r
t r i p s . One of them was a very b e a u t i f u l place up the Kenne-
bec, about ten miles away from Skowhegan, what would be a
good distance i n those days, not too near your parents, and
y e t n9ar enough, but there was no reason why they shouldn't
l i v e i n any p a r t i c u l a r place. Then they g o t to thinking
t h a t maybe i t would be a good idea to be near a c i t y , and
they thought of both Boston and New York. Actually, f o r
Father's growth and reputation New York would probably have
been more stimulating and wiser and l e s s f r u s t r a t i n g because,
as I s a i d , Boston was t e r r i b l y conservative and the academics
had a squeeze-hold on it, except when he became president of
the Boston A r t Club.
Boston A r t Club
A t the time the new trends i n art were coming i n , . t h e modern
movement was coming i n -- t h a t would be the beginning of
a b s t r a c t painting, h i s sympathies were always with the coming,
struggling artists -- events came i n such a way t h a t m
y
f a t h e r was made president of thd Boston A r t Club, which was
the most important a r t club i n the c i t y -- the St. Botolph
Club was the other, didn't emphasize art s o much, but held
exhibitions -- and he was much interested.
George D. B. Pepper, Charles Hovey
Pepper, and Stephen C. Pepper, i n
about 1910.
Pepper: For about ten years he brought on the f i n e s t
exhibitions t h a t Boston had and brought about a complete
.
change i n the t a s t e and the handling of art i n Boston,
I n other words, he r e a l l y did s h i f t Boston i n t o another
era of art, he and Jack Spaulding, a f r i e n d of h i s who
w a s q u i t e wealthy -- and incidentally they were old
school f r i e n d s up i n Waterville and then they met r a t h e r
accidentally; i n the meantime t h i s f r i e n d had made a b i g
fortune i n sugar and d i d n ' t know what t o do with h i s
money and he was a bachelor then. Well, Father and he
chummed up and Father g o t him some Japanese p r i n t s , and
he had oodles of money and a man l i k e t h a t can j u s t say,
" I ' m g e t t i n g Japanese prints: and every dealer i n the
world is supplying him with the f i n e s t . M
y f a t h e r taught
him how t o choose.
H
e had me out there q u i t e often; t h i s was fascinating.
These p r i n t s would come i n from the^ dealers a l l over the
world, Japan, France, and of course America -- t h a t ' s
where most of the dealers were, A p r i n t would come in:
"Let's compare t h i s with the other copy of the same
print." Well, the o t h e r copy w a s a p e r f e c t beauty, but
the color was j u s t not.,quite s o good, and so he would
discard the other and take t h i s one. W
e witnessed t h i s
thing. H e collected what became one of the g r e a t
collections of the world and he gave i t t o the Boston
A r t Museum, and it's what makes the Boston A r t Museum
p r i n t c o l l e c t i o n one of the very f i n e s t there is.
When he exhausted t h i s p r i n t business, and he r e a l l y
j u s t about did -- he took the oream off the market, I
think -- now what was he going t o do? M
y f a t h e r had
begun t o g e t him i n t e r e s t e d i n painting. H
e collected
a q u i t e large collection of very f i n e paintings of the
Pepper:
I
Riesst
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper t
l a t e 19th century, French p a i n t e r s -- Degas, Ingres, Lautrec,
Matisse and Gauguin and Van Gogh and those. He g o t a very,
very n i c e c o l l e c t i o n and he gave those t o the Boston A r t
Museum.
This man, and t h i s was p a r t of h i s education, w a s
a l s o a member of the A r t Club, and my f a t h e r got him put
on t h e art committee while he w a s president. That w a s
easy t o do, you see. These two men would go down t o New
York and look over the shows down there and go i n t o artists'
s t u d i o s where they thought there was somebody t h a t looked
very interesting. They would give t h e i r g a l l e r y t o these
men and many very f i n e shows went up there, one man some-
times but more frequently a collected group. It would be
a uniform t a s t e so there were no compromises. They were
very swell exhibitions and the conservatives of Boston
howled and yelled and then a f t e r a while they began t o
g e t t o the people, and i t changed the policy of the Boston
A r t Museum. They g o t another director. The whole of
Boston changed as a r e s u l t of these ten years of my f a t h e r ' s
administration there.
They would have howled a t Matisse and Van Gogh?
Oh, my, yes.
When were they given these paintings? A t t h a t time?
Oh, no, he gave them t o the Boston A r t Museum s h o r t l y
before he died, but t h a t was much l a t e r . A Spaulding
c o l l e c t i o n of p r i n t s and secondarily h i s c o l l e c t i o n of
paintings y o u ' l l f i n d is very well known.
This they were doing around the teens. hat's f a i r l y
early. The Armory Show, which made such a shock i n New
York, was the first time Americans had seen a r e a l mass
of them -- they'd seen Corots, of course, and Degas even,
but they hadn't seen these wild things l i k e Matisse and
Pepper: Gauguin and Van Gogh and Cezanne and a whole group i n there
whose names I c a n ' t think of, but almost as good as these
men. That Armory Show is famous, and I think t h a t was
about 1913. It was along i n then t h a t m
y f a t h e r was head
of the A r t Club. Then there was an i n f i l t r a t i o n i n the
Boston A r t Club; the academicssqueezed him out. He didn't
mind too much, he'd done h i s job.
Riess: When you speak of t h e arts committee t h a t means a committee
of the club t h a t picks the works i n an exhibition?
Pepperr That's r i g h t . They would have charge of what went up i n
t h e show. And with my f a t h e r as president and Jack
Spaulding on the committee no question remained. They
ran it.
Riess: What would the other a c t i v i t i e s of the club have been?
Pepper: Oh, i t was a s o c i a l club. One could take wife and family
there. Many commuters belonged t o It. I t was one of the
good clubs t o go t o i n Boston. It j u s t happened t o g e t
going on art. It's now finished. Those clubs lhmd i t
hard going a f t e r the depression of the 305, and I think
t h i s club went down i n it. But meantime i t had done its
' Job.
Living i n Concord, Mass.
Pepperr Now we'll come back and pick up what happened t o me a f t e r
we g o t back. H
e [ f a t h e r ] decided t o s t a y on i n Boston
and then they took t r i p s out i n the oountry around Boston
t o p i c k a r t the most b e a u t i f u l town they could find, and
they decided t h a t town was Concord. No o t h e r reason --
they d i d n ' t know a soul there. So they went t o Concord,
where the Revolutionary W
a
r began. Don't think i t was
Lexington, i t was Concord. That would be t e r r i b l e i f you
Pepper: thought i t was Lexington. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
A t Concord they
pushed them back, you know; i t w a s the Concordian militia
t h a t drove them back. The B r i t i s h went r i g h t through
Lexington.
I t is a beautiful town, i t still is. It was very
charming then. Two r i v e r s came together, the Asabet and
the Sudbury, t o form the Concord River r i g h t there i n the
town. Then the houses with t h e i r entrances on the s t r e e t ,
with long lawns and tall elms and maples going back to the
edge of the water.
Riess: I always wonder how anyone could ever use a house as
enormous as the houses there.
Pepper: When my wife and I were young everybody, anybody, had a
couple of servants. When w
e were married w
e had j u s t a
small allowance, and we had a servant. It was $5 a week.
The t r a n s i t i o n came just i n m
y generation.
Riess: It looks a l s o l i k e somebody had b u i l t the house and then
expected h i s children t o come back and l i v e there.
Pepper: I t might be that, but what i t was w a s this: i f you have
plenty of servants, a big house is nothing. You'd be
I stepping over each other unless i t was f a i r l y big. Well,
take m
y wife's house, which goes way back. She comes from
the Senator Hoar family, one of the r e a l Concord old-timers.
They were very prominent. Her father was a very prominent
man i n p o l i t i c s and no t e l l i n g where he would have gone i f
he hadn't died as a very young man as a r e s u l t of sickness
which he caught by looking i n t o the very bad hospital health
conditions of the s o l d i e r s i n the Spanish War. He died i n
action, so t o speak. There were three, Senator Hoar, Judge
Hoar, and her father, Sherman Hoar, a l l very prominent
public men.
Well, j u s t take her house. When I was courting her,
Pepper:
. I
1 

I
t
playing around before the courting period, i t was j u s t an
ordinary t y p i c a l main-street house, but they were r a t h e r
impoverished, because when her f a t h e r died he w a s , as I
say, q u i t e young. They would have had plenty i f he'd lived,
by h i s salary, but there were no pensions then. H i s friends
and others g o t together and g o t up q u i t e a fund t h a t made a
kind of insurance thing, but even t h a t was not q u i t e enough.
Fortunately, the brother of m
y wife's step-mother -- her
own nother had died i n c h i l d b i r t h with her -- became very
wealthy, and he saw t o i t t h a t she wasn't i n need, but
t h i s was a poor family.
Here was t h i s beautiful, two-storey, p i l a s t e r e d house;
i t didn't have columns, the next house to i t had columns,
but t h i s had p i l a s t e r s and a big porch, a big double l i v i n g
room across the f r o n t with windows t h a t came a l l the way
down, a back study, a dining room, a big s t a i r c a s e , high
rooms, a balustraded bannister. You went u p s t a i r s and
there were, oh, one, two, three, four, five, s i x bedrooms,
and then there was an e l l , because those were the kitchen
quarters and the servants had t h e i r rooms upstairs. Now
these people were l i v i n g poor. Yet they always had a cook
and a second maid, and a gardener who was a l s o a coachman.
They had one o l d horse and a carriage. Then t h i s beautiful
sweep of lawn through vegetable gardens with rows of
flowers on e i t h e r s i d e down to the r i v e r , and of course
they had t h e i r boat house and t h e i r summer house. The
point is t h a t labor was very, very cheap. And everybody
g o t t h e i r vegetables out of t h e i r garden. That's the way
l i v i n g was.
I d i d n ' t mention m
y own parents because they came
there l a t e r , but i t ' s the same thing. They b u i l t a house
out i n what would be the new p a r t of the town. Father
Pepper: 	 bought four a c r e s of land out there, b u i l t a beautiful place.
M
y father turned out t o be an awfully good businessman.
I s n ' t t h a t amazing? They had the good old New England h a b i t
of never spending a l l t h e i r income and always laying some
by, Those Haine lands I spoke of ran i n t o a very remunera-
t i v e period, s o t h a t t h e i r income became q u i t e good.
Riess: 	 Some part of the family was s t i l l i n Maine?
Pepper: 	 Yes. W
e still have those Maine lands i n the family. But
t h a t happened i n a period when they were bringing i n a l o t
of p r o f i t , and my mother was g e t t i n g her share, you see.
Then my f a t h e r was very, very clever and conservative and
f e l t g r e a t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t h a t i t wasn't h i s money. Further,
he couldn't earn any, he knew t h a t , s o he took advice very
c a r e f u l l y and very shrewdly and he had a very good fortune
when he died which he'd gathered together. I t w a s amazing.
They'd bought stocks, you see, and bonds. He always bought
t o keep s o t h a t the depressions didn't h i t him. There were
no income taxes i n those days, s o t h a t i f you chose well,..
A s I ' v e grown up I've come t o admire t h a t s i d e of it. W
e
, 	 were brought up p r e t t y i d e a l i s t i c a l l y ; the thing t o be w a s
t o do something f o r society, leave your name behind i f you
could, but a t l e a s t do something. And money, well, t h a t
w a s an important means and i t was nice to have some, but
when I discovered what a b e a u t i f u l job he'd done as a
businessman I was amazed.
Riess: 	 Not speculating, j u s t c a r e f u l investments.
Pepper: 	 J u s t c a r e f u l investments. Though there were periods of
scrimping, especially i n the e a r l y days, there was never
any r e a l money shortage,
F i r s t they went t o Concord and rented and there was
a period of renting houses, and then they b u i l t t h e i r first
house and some d i f f i c u l t i e s arose with regard t o the place
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
they first b u i l t . They s o l d that. Then they b u i l t t h i s
house I ' m speaking of. It was a b e a u t i f u l place, a l a r g e
enclosed garden, a separate s t u d i o coming o f f the enclosed
garden which was l i k e a court. He spontaneously had the
i d e a of something of the open plan, s o t h a t the dining room
looked r i g h t o u t i n t o an outdoors dining room which stepped
r i g h t o f f onto a terrace, which went off i n t o the garden.
Did he design i t ?
No, he had an a r c h i t e c t , but I think t h a t he had a good deal
t o do with the designing.
It was unusual t o have such an open s t r u c t u r e .
Well, i t was s o well adjusted t h a t you wouldnl t know t h a t i t
was d i f f e r e n t .
What I was coming t o is t h a t we always, a l l my child-
hood a f t e r the first three o r four years i n Concord, when
we had these two houses, we always had two servants, a cook
and a second maid, and a stableman who was a l s o a gardener,
and we never had l e s s than two horses. When I was able t o
r i d e we had a pony and two horses. Now t h e r e ' s a s t y l e of
, l i v i n g t h a t would take a fortune nowadays, if you could do
i t anyway.
Did you bring servants back from Paris?
Oh, no. I d i d n ' t need a nursemaid any more at e i g h t , you
see, You'd go t o an employment agency i n Boston and you'd
a s k f o r a second m i d o r a cook. The cook and gardener
were often a married couple, and we had two of those married
couples,
Oh, these servants would change, you know, but don't 

think t h a t t h a t was an unalloyed blessing, e s p e c i a l l y when 

you have one servant as we did i n the middle period when 

my wife and I were having one servant. Your l i v i n g g o t t o 

depend on t h i s . You r e l i e d on her t o do the cooking, and 

Pepper: 	 your l i v i n g was adapted t o her. Let's say I ' d come home
from Wellesley where I ' d been teaching, m
y f i r s t teaching
job, and E l l e n would meet m
e a t the door and say, "Susan
has given notice." [Lau.ghing] Then t h e r e was t h a t week
when Susan had given n o t i c e and there was a kind of coolness
between you and Susan u n t i l she l e f t . Then who would t h e
next person be? The servant, a f t e r a l l , was f a i r l y c l o s e
t o the family, and when somebody s a i d they were leaving
you i t produced a c e r t a i n coolness. And there would be a
disruption whenever t h a t happened, and i t was s u r e t o
happen every l i t t l e while. But t h a t ' s the way we l i v e d i n
those days.
O f course, the other s i d e of i t w a s t h a t there were
s o r t of slums i n a l l those towns, the other s i d e of the
r a i l r o a d track, as they say. I n Massachusetts they were
nearly a l l the I r i s h who would come over t o labor, and
they l i v e d i n p r e t t y s q u a l i d conditions.
Riess: 	 Was Concord a t e x t i l e town?
Pepper: 	 Oh, no, i t was a pure r e s i d e n t i a l town, i t was about 3,000
, 	 when w
e were there, a l i t t l e town, with t h i s b e a u t i f u l old
h i s t o r y and many of these n i c e o l d houses with the f a m i l i e s
l i v i n g as I ' v e been t e l l i n g you. They a l l l i v e d l i k e
t h a t . But the road work had t o be done or there was e x t r a
work, hand labor, and some of your servants came from over
there. They lived i n p r e t t y squalid conditions.
Riess: 	 Were they assimilated i n t o the next generation a t a l l ?
Pepper: 	 Well, there is a race problem i n Massachusetts. It used
t o amuse me t o have them ask me ab83ut the race problem i n
California. There w a s a race problem, you know, with t h e
Chinese, though by the time we g o t here i t was p r e t t y well
gone. There was more of a race problem with the I r i s h and
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

,
English, the Protestants, and the Catholics, r i g h t there i n
Cambridge and Boston and Concord than there was out here.
The I r i s h s e t t o work and became p o l i t i c i a n s and they g o t
control of Boston, and now, you see, they have c o n t r o l of
the United S t a t e s of America [laughing] ( r a t h e r good con-
t r o l , I think; I voted f o r him). But t h a t ' s the aftermath
of that. They revolted i n an i n t e l l e c t u a l way and i n a
p o l i t i c a l way.. .you've heard of Mayor Curley? Well, t h a t
was the r e a l revolt. H
e was a s o r t of a Huey Long, f o r
t h a t reason. He was j u s t out t o see t h a t he corrected these
e v i l s about the I r i s h and he had no bonssabout seeing t h a t
the I r i s h contractor g o t the job and not t h a t s.o.b. English
contractor. He even ran the c i t y from prison, you know.
He is a hero?
Oh, m
y yes. You've read The Last Hurrah? I haven't read
t h a t , but t h a t would be the idea.
Incidentally, Huey Long is a hero i n Louisiana, t o my
amazement, with m
y c u l t i v a t e d friends. They wish they had
a Huey Long t h e r e again t o take c a r e of things, because
p o l i t i c a l methods there a r e p r e t t y crude, i t takes a very
heavy-handed man t o handle them.
Well, i t ' s a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t i n Massachusetts because
i t wasn't graft t h a t they were r e v o l t i n g a g a i n s t , i t was a
kind of slrppression of a c e r t a i n race. And they were j u s t
going t o see t o i t t h a t they g o t i n t o a p o s i t i o n of power,
and by g o l l y they did. And they're still doing it. The
Catholic-Protestant i s s u e is involved i n t h i s . I can g i v e
you two examples. I n the good old town of Concord, with
its p r i d e of i t s s t r e e t s and its elms and these houses,
with the P r o t e s t a n t church and a l l t h a t , and i t s n i c e o l d
cemetery, they took a big piece of lznd t h a t goes down t o
the r i v e r , j u s t at the edge of the center of town, and put
up an enormous Catholic school. Whang! I n a town t h a t is
pepper: the pride of New E ~ g l a n d . They're going t o say a thing or
two.
Riess: I t was done with a vengeance.
Pepper: Oh, yes.
Massachusetts Tech has needed and gathered up a g r e a t
deal of land along the Charles Ri,er. You've been there:
did you n o t i c e one l i t t l e four o r f i v e s t o r e y brick building
j u s t off the Charles River? Well, it's a Catholic home, you
know, r i g h t i n the middle of Tech. I must say they have
some cause f o r i t , a l l r i g h t , but I ' m a f r a i d t h e r e ' l l be
some repercussions.
Well, t o come back, my f a t h e r and mother s e t t l e d i n
Concord; they first came down there j u s t before school time
began and rented a house on Main S t r e e t , j u s t two or t h r e e
houses away from where my wife's house was. A oouple of
maiden l a d i e s from a f i n e old Concord family had i t , and
they went down South f o r the winter, and f o r a good reason,
too, because although i t w a s a m i l d winter my f a t h e r said
he was sure i t was m i l d because we heated i t with our
furnace, because the air leaked i n i n grand style. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
,
Schooling i n Concord
Pepper: 	 From there I hsd my first experience at school with American
boys. They s a i d I talked English with a French accent. A t
any r a t e , I was queer, there was no doubt bout it. One of
the first things was t h a t I got teased about m
y language.
Gosh a l l hemlocks, I was going t o be ac American, and I s e t
such a block on foreign languages t h a t I f o r g e t every word
of French I knew. But i t did somethine worse than t h a t ; i t
made i t im?ossible f o r m
e t o successfully t r y t o t a l k with
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

the accent of a foreign people. I f I talked with a French
accent I must have talked l i k e a l i t t l e French boy, you see.
Well, I'm a very poor l i n g u i s t now. I relearned French,
but I t a l k i t l i k e an American. And I had to r e a l l y r e l e a r n
i t , t o o . I suppose something n u s t have stuck because I
d i d n ' t f i n d i t very d i f f i c u l t t o -elearn, but s o far as
I know I didn't remember a word. So there was t h a t , but
the r e a l thing was I was going t o a public school, and my
f a t h e r was seeing t o i t t h a t 1 was being a r e a l American.
He c e r t a i n l y was r i g h t .
On the way, I had t o pass --
You think t h a t t h i s was the r i g h t thing f o r him t o do,
r a t h e r than have you go t o p r i v a t e school f i r s t ?
Oh, yes.
That would have eased you i n more gradually though, wouldn't
i t nave?
Well, f o r one thing p r i v a t e schools were n o t as common then
as they a r e now. There was a l i t t l e p r i v a t e school set-up
i n Concord when I was a kid. But the way a l l of us k i d s
looked a t t h a t school was t h a t only s i c k o r i n t e l l e c t u a l l y
inadequate children went t o t h a t sohool, [ ~ a u g h t e r ] He
c e r t a i n l y did the r i g h t thing. Well, I adjusted a l l r i g h t .
I was bothered by three boys, p a r t i c u l a r l y two and
then a smaller one. They found I was a wonderful thing t o
have fun with. They waylaid me on the way t o my school.
I'd have t o pass t h e i r building, and they'd see t o i t t h a t
they were a l i t t l e ahead o f me. L i t t l e boys a r e savages.
So f i n a l l y Z reported t h a t at home. Ny dear ~ u n t
was there
at the time, and my father heard it and s a i d , "Well, did you
f i g h t ? n
Ftght? I never heard of such a thing. 

My dear aunt s a i d , nOh, dear, oh, dear." 

Pepper r
Riess: 

Pepper: 

,
"But how could I f i g h t them? I had books i n m
y hands."
"Put your books down. Be s u r e you've g o t your thumb
outside of your hand, don't l e t your thumb g e t sprained.
Fight 'em."
Well, t h a t was a brand new i d e a t o me. I never heard
of t h a t i n France. I was big, fortunately, f o r m
y age. So
next day I went and s u r e enough these boys came out. I had
no idea what was going t o happen, but I looked d i f f e r e n t ,
and as they came up I don't know what I s a i d but I s a i d
something t h a t they couldn't q u i t e believe, I guess. "This
i s gonna be more fun than ever," they thought. So I l a y
down m
y books and took an aggressive stance, and I never
had any more trouble. Now, t h a t was an illumination.
That's the way you did it. Well, I never had any more
trouble. And t h e strange thing is I never had but one
r e a l f i g h t with a boy, and t h a t was some time l a t e r . I s n ' t
t h a t queer?
Were these "nice" boys?
Oh, yes, [laughing] they were boys. They were n o t I r i s h
boys. You know, t h a t s o r t of d i s t i n c t i o n doesn't r e a l l y
develop till l a t e r . .Oh, I should say t h a t the two k i d s
t h a t I played with were the l i t t l e I r i s h boys who were the
sons of the coachman of m
y grandmother. I used t o v i s i t
up there. W
e did come back from time t o time from France,
oh, I guess a couple of times, s o t h a t w
e were summers
there i n Maine. And I did have t h a t experience of playing
with those two kids. That's about t h e only experience I
had. But again i t shows. These were l i t t l e I r i s h kids, and
there w a s no thought of anything -- children don't develop
these things u n t i l much l a t e r . And among the Negroes, you
know, 'the l i t t l e white and l i t t l e colored boys play r i g h t
together as f r i e n d l y and fine as can be u n t i l 14 or 15,
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
,
Riess:
Pepper:
when t h e r e is a t r a g i c break.
Did the I r i s h children go t o the same schools?
Oh, yes, they were m
y companions there, but they divided
the c l a s s e s i n those days i n t o those t h a t were oollege
preparatory and those t h a t were not, and n a t u r a l l y -- oh,
I say n a t u r a l l y , but there would only be two o r three of
them t h a t would be i n college preparatory. Most of them
were n o t doing t h a t , s o t h a t m
y f r i e n d s r a t h e r n a t u r a l l y
were the English type.
Well, I made some very good f r i e n d s there and I d i d
l e a r n t o g e t on with boys, thotqh there were differences.
I g o t very much i n t e r e s t e d , kind of l i k e what a farm boy
would -- m
y l i t t l e crowd, ve had our tag games, b l i n d
man's buff and f i n e times l i k e t h a t -- but f o r the outdoors
i n t e r e s t s we c o l l e c t e d b i r d s ' n e s t s , b u t t e r f l i e s . The
f a t h e r of one of my f r i e n d s had a b i g b u t t e r f l y collection.
O f course, t h a t s t i r r e d us on. W
e each had ours. Collected
wildflowers, had a wildflower garden, and there was r i v a l r y
t o f i n d r a r e p l a n t s , maidenhair f e r n s were very r a r e there
and we knew three places vhere they were and they were
g r e a t s e c r e t s ; one of them we found ourselves, another
we knew w a s someplace i n those woods because ve'd heard
about i t , but m
y goodness, we did f i n d it.
These a r e peaceful kinds of i n t e r e s t s ,
That p a r t i c u l a r group of boys t h a t I was with, none of us
went on the high school baseball teams, o r f o o t b a l l .
There w a s no basketball then. W
e used t o play scrub
baseball and scrub f o o t b a l l , using a h a t as a f o o t b a l l ,
somebody's cap.
W
e were t h e r e at t h i s placewhere we heated the town
f o r one year, then we went t o a place f u r t h e r down i n the
town and we were there, I think, two years, and t h a t was
Pepper: almost i n the c e n t e r of town. And s o t h a t , some way o r
other, became the baseball place. I s t i l l think t h a t f s
r a t h e r strange, n o t being the a t h l e t i c kind of boy at all.
The kids would come there. W
e played baseball n e a r l y every
afternoon f o r a while. A funny thing is t h a t I chose t o
be catcher. They a l l warned me i t was a very dangerous
p o s i t i o n t o have, and I used t o catch p r e t t y close t o the
bat, too. O f course, they weren't pitching very hard, but
I never threw awfully well. Throwing t o second was a
l i t t l e precarious, I wasnt t s u r e t o do it. But I didn't
have t o very often, and nobody seemed t o want t o be t h e
catcher and s o t h a t put me i n with the boys.
However, i n the second house there was across the
s t r e e t a r e a l bully. H
e w a s considerably bigger than I
w a s and he discovered t h a t I d i d have some weaknesses still.
I did have a time with him, but l u c k i l y the next door
neighbor w a s a bigger boy and he took an i n t e r e s t i n m
e
when he saw what was going on, and acted as a kind of
protector, I think t h a t r s the only r e a l trouble, I j u s t
couldn't seem t o handle t h i s bully. The funny thing is
t h a t a p a r t from these rough and ready games i t was n a t u r e
and hking, Oh, I knew t h a t country f o r miles around.
Well, then m
y family bought a l o t and b u i l t a very
handsome house up on the ridge, the very ridge t h a t the
Continental s o l d i e r s s h o t down on the r e t r e a t i n g B r i t i s h
troops from. Things went very wrong there with a neighbor
t h a t was disagreeable, and my mother had a nervous break-
down out of it. You don't g e t a nervous breakdown j u s t
over a thing l i k e t h a t , but t h a t p r e c i p i t a t e d it. That
was when on the d o c t o r t s advice i f you had a nervous upset
you g o t out and traveled. He said, "Why don't you go t o
Japan? You're i n t e r e s t e d i n Japanese p r i n t s and Japanese
Pepper: things; why don't you go t o Japan?''
To Japan, 1902
I
Pepper: So they pulled m
e out of school and we went t o Japan. I
was eleven and twelve; t h i s was 1902-1903.
As we were s e t t i n g o f f , my f a t h e r bought me two
l i t t l e red l e a t h e r covered booklets, and he s a i d , "Now,
we're going t o s e e a l o t of very i n t e r e s t i n g things and I
think you would l i k e t o have a record of them and w
e would
l i k e t o have a record of them. So I've g o t you these s o
you can keep an account of what w
e do. Don't pay any
1 a t t e n t i o n t o s p e l l i n g o r anything l i k e t h a t , don't l e t
I t h a t bother you. J u s t put down what i n t e r e s t s youen That
was m
y f i r s t book and I kept it. I kept i t conscientiously
f o r the whole t r i p , and it's r e a l l y q u i t e an i n t e r e s t i n g
l i t t l e book. I go back and look i n t o i t sometimes.
Riess: H
o
w did you t r a v e l t o California?
Pepper: By t r a i n . It took, I guess, about s i x o r seven days. W
e
, 	 came over the S m t a Fe. One of the most i n t e r e s t i n g p a r t s
of the l i t t l e book is the record of what I saw out t h e
window. It was still a pioneer country on the p l a i n s , so
t h a t people were l i v i n g i n mud holes i n the ground, you
know. They would mound up a roof and they'd l i v e down
underground f o r warmth. I don' t think these even had
foundations. Almost l i k e a Navaho hogan, very primitive.
The t r a i n was held up by c a t t l e on the tracks s e v e r a l times.
Riess: They served food on the t r a i n ?
Pepper: Oh, yes. And they had regular sleeping cars, Pullman cars,
I then, but of course there was no air-conditioning o r any-
I
I
I 	 thing l i k e t h a t , but t h a t d i d n ' t a f f e c t us because t h i s
must have been sometime i n March.
Pepper: W
e v i s i t e d some friends i n Pasadena, and then we
came up and I r e c o l l e c t very c l e a r l y the old Paltnoe Hotel,
which was one of the most romantic h o t e l s t h a t I've ever
been i n t o i n the world, and one way or another I've been
i n a good many of them. That was the horse-drawn days,
so we got i n t o a cab. Ye always traveled with two or
three trunks i n those days and those were put up on the
cab, and then we drove from the s t a t i o n down k r k e t Street.
be drove under the arch r i g h t i n t o the court and you'd
look r i g h t up. ..You can see a plan of the old hotel, I t
was v i r t u a l l y destroyed by the f i r e . I t was r e a l l y mag-
nificent. I think it must have been about s i x s t o r i e s
high, which was pretty high f o r those days, with balconies
a l l around the inside, and people would be leaning over
these balconies looking a t people corning i n , s o that a l l
the goings-on at the h o t e l everybody could see i f they
wanted to, The rooms, of course, were o f f of these
balconies, a l l with windows towards the outside, the
streets. Here t h e cab would r o l l i n and you'd s t e p out
of the cab onto the carpet. This was open plan i f any-
thing was. I t was j u s t as though you drove your horse
i n t o the l i v i n g room, And there was the desk and of
course the service -- they had Ck,inese boys i n those days
-- was very quick. That was r e a l l y something to renenber.
Riess: 	 Do you s t i l l have your notebooks?
Pepper: 	 Oh, yes. They seem t o be interesting enough t o publish.
I t ~ o k
them down t o Small to see -- T3 our family they're
j u s t enormously interest in^, but he said, "Vell, I'm
afraid thirt this r e a l l y is a family thing even though
it's got a l o t i n i t t h a t ' s interssting." Anyway, i t cot
m
e i n t o t h e habit of journals. Every period that vas
i n t e r e s t i n g o r exciting I kept journals on. I ' v e ,got a
drawer f u l l of journals.
Pepper: Well, w e took the steamer. That w a s an i n t e r e s t i n g
thing. They had Chinese s a i l o r s -- only the o f f i c e r s were
white on these steamers -- and very primitive Chinese
steerage.
W
e stopped off at Honolulu.
I t was a long t r i p , but I love steamers. I ' d had
q u i t e a l i t t l e experience i n steamers, went a c r o s s the
A t l a n t i c several times. M
y mother was always s i c k , t h a t ' s
my recollection. M
y mother vould go t o a stateroom and
p r a c t i c a l l y s t a y there. But m
y f a t h e r was a very g e n i a l
man; he'd be i n the smoking room and I knew where t o f i n d
m
y father. He would always take me i n with the crowd he
was with. But I didn't care about being t h e r e very much.
I ' d find someone t o play with. So those t r i p s were fun.
Well, we got t o Japan, t o Yokohama, and one of the
first things m
y f z t h e r did when he g o t there w a s t o f i n d
out where those p r i n t s were. The name of the p r i n t shop
was Kobayashi and he went i n there and they had some very
n i c e p r i n t s and he bought several. I J u s t remember one of
those t h a t he bought, and I have i t now because he divided
h i s c o l l e c t i o n between m
y s i s t e r and me. While we were i n
Japan he got a magnificent c o l l e c t i o n q u i t e cheap, and he
added t o i t l a t e r . When ny s i s t e r took her p r i n t s up t o
t h e museum t o be catalogued -- the same one t h a t has the
Spaulding c o l l e c t i o n -- thy s a i d , "Well, you know, i f
your brother has the equal of thism...which I don't have
q u i t e , because he collected some after the c o l l e c t i o n was
divided and those went t o h e r . . . n i t ' s one of the g r e a t
collections.
Riess: I haven't heard about your s i s t e r before. 

Pepper: M
y s i s t e r hadn't a r r i v e d yet. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ] 

Riess: How did you f e e l about being removed from school a t t h i s 

point?
37. 

Pepper: Oh, I was t h r i l l e d with the ides. You see, i t was j u s t
natural. Whxt did we do but pick up and go t o Florence
o r go t o Holland? There was no firmness aboutahome at
a l l , so t h i s was j u s t exciting. This was wonderful.
Riess: It didn't bother your new friendships?
Pepper: No, I didn't have t h a t kind of feeling. Of course, we were
t o come back anyhow. But I don't think I had any friend-
s h i p s deep enough t o have been a f f e c t e d even i f w
e d i d n ' t
cone back. I didnl t write back t o any of them, f o r instance.
Then we did some sight-seeing and s o on. P r e t t y soon
we went t o the town of Nikko, which is a b e a u t i f u l temple
town up i n the mountains, I guess aboutaehundred miles
north of Tokyo, and the h o t e l mznager there -- t h i s was
the Kanaya Hotel, and t h i s again w i l l come in, i t ' s named
f o r t h e family t h a t kept it. Well, my f a t h e r wanted a
place where he could paint. You couldn't paint i n the
h o t e l rooms, you see. So, the proprietor, the manager,
found f o r m
y f a t h e r a Japanese house he could r e n t i n t h e
middle of town, g o t him a c h a i r o r two s o t h a t we wouldn't
have t o be l i v i n g Japanese fashion, g o t an amah -- t h a t
is, a cook4 t h a t ' s the name f o r a nursemaid o r somebody
of the female s e x t h a t kind of takes care of things. This
house was at the edge of town, and behind the house i t went
r i g h t back t o a rushing, stony stream which was not
awfully deep when there were no r a i n s , but when r a i n s
came t o r r e n t s would come down i t and the rocks would r o l l
l i k e thunder. I t w a s r e a l l y a dramatic place.
Riess: Were you on the s i d e of a mountain?
Pepper: No, we were already f a i r l y well up a t Nikko, but Nikko i s
i n a valley. There's a big r i v e r beyond, but t h i s was a
l i t t l e stream t h a t came down through a p r e t t y s t e e p
v a l l e y which vas r i g h t behind where we were, same out
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
there, and of course joined the main r i v e r . This was a
wonderful place t o play Indian o r any kind of thing you
wanted to.
They arranged i t s o t h a t m
y f a t h e r had t h r e e geisha
girls t h a t cane down. They a r e t r a i n e d e n t e r t a i n e r s , you
know, very charming l i t t l e c r i t t e r s . I don't q u i t e know
whether t o say they're b e a u t i f u l o r not, but one of the
things is t h a t they make the most of what beauty they have,
end t h e i r manners a r e j u s t exquisite. These were from the
geisha house i n Nikko, and they were Father's models.
This type of geisha g i r l -- there was no sex element a t
all. Of course, some of them were professional prostitutes,
but t h s t means something very d i f f e r e n t i n Japan than i t
does here. The proprietor got them becmse my f<lther
wanted g i r l s t o p a i n t , and so t h i s was the arrangement made.
They'd be paid, I suppose; i t wouldn't be very much. And
theretd sometimes be one of them and sometimes two, and he
painted one p i c t u r e with a l l three a t once. They were
varied i n looks. They'd come down i n sweet l i t t l e dresses
-- he had to see t o i t they had the same ones on when he
was painting the same picture.
'tJ3s he painting i n a s o r t of Japanese s t y l e ?
Well, no.
Was i t watercolor?
These were a l l watercolors he was doing there, but i t was
a r a t h e r heavy watercolor. Iie didn' t make much use o f
transparency i n h i s watercolor technique. He had a s p e c i a l
technique. I t gave a heavy q u a l i t y to the brush s o you
could almost s5e the brush strokes with i t .
These g i r l s would come i n t o the house and the first
thing they'd do, r i g h t o f f , no matter what the s t d t e o r
condition t h a t my mother w a s i n -- she generally was i n
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
t
i
i
P
' I
I
;,
I
i ,
i /
I i
I
, ,
! !
,
i ;
I
i
k . .
. .
. .
,
bed, but she might be up dressing o r something -- they'd
come r i g h t i n t o her room and go r i g h t down on t h e i r hands,
bow, and then they'd go out and pose f o r m
y father. But
they d i d t h e i r obeisance t o her first; she vas the lady of
the house.
3 i d you f i n d children t o play with there?
No
W
e used t o go up t o Lake Chuzenji, which is about a
thousand f e e t higher, periodically, e s p e c i a l l y i f i t g o t
r e a l l y h o t down there -- and Japan can g e t h o t and t h i s
w a s the summer, you see. M
y f a t h e r would p a i n t landscapes
up there.
How long were you there?
I ' d have t o go t o my d i a r y f o r that. I have a copy of my
diary. That was the hardest thing f o r m
y s e c r e t a r y t o
type t h a t I have ever presented because I s a i d , "You must
get the s p e l l i n g j u s t as i t is." [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
One of the strange things about reading over t h e
d i a r y i s the vividness of the memories a t t h a t time and
the p o s s i b i l i t y of p u t t i n g mature c r i t i c a l judgments on
top of the v i s u a l memories of t h a t time. I can remember,
f o r instance, a11 the squalor of India, the l i t t l e k i d s
with the bloated stomachs because of beri-beri, which
d i d n ' t impress me too much then. A c h i l d of 12 is a
p r e t t y brazen l i t t l e instrument. He has very l i t t l e
sympathy with anybody o r anything. I think probably,
i f he has had any chance of being brought up at a l l , if
he hddnit g o t thoroughly n e u r o t i c already, it's the l e a s t
emotional time and the most hardboiled time of an indi-
vidualyls l i f e , There were the k i d s that were the drummer
boys, you know, i n the Hevolution, the C i v i l War, but I
don't think the war meant very much t o them. They had
Pepper: 	 i n f i n i t e courage, i t was an adventure, and the human
significance of s u f f e r i n g I don' t think meant a darned
thing t o them. I ' m s u r e i t d i d n ' t mean much t o me,
Canton was a slummy place with l i t t l e narrow s t r e e t s ,
and as you were taken through on the c h a i r s on the shoulders
of Chinese c o o l i e s t h a t d i d n ' t mean anything. The people
s u r l i l y had t o g e t i n t o the doorways o r scrunch up a g a i n s t
the w a l l t o l e t the c h a i r s through. That seemed t o be
kind of fun t o me. And t h a t they were s u r l y was obvious,
but t h a t was kind of ridiculous. Well, now I look back
on i t and I can j u s t sense the hatred of the Chinese f o r
the colonials. In Shanghai I saw an Englishman --
probably an o f f i c e r , but he was i n c i v i l i a n clothes --
kick a Chinese off the sidewalk because he was i n f r o n t
of him. Now t h a t I look back on th,rt t h i s r a i s e s the
dander on m
y back, i f t h a t ' s where dander are,
Riess: 	 You don't think you had any emotions -- wouldn't i t be
t h a t maybe you had a c e r t a i n ainount of f e a r and would.
keep aloof when you were t h a t age?
Pepper: 	 Well, as I look back upon i t -- you read t h i s diary -- f
, 	
was astonishingly impersonal, The strange things i n t e r e s t e d
me enormously. You'll f i n d I spent a tremendous mount of
time describing i n d e t a i l a Chinese family on a Japanese
t r a i n -- never saw the l i k e of t h a t before, you see. I
think y o u ' l l f i n d thdt one of the d u l l p a r t s , but t h a t
i n t e r e s t e d me, t h a t was strange and new.
For instance, up a t Nikko the kids were c a l l i n g names
a t m
e over the fence, which annoyed the amah t e r r i b l y .
Well, t h a t vas kind of amusing t o me. Ydu'll f i n d I note
i t there. But now t h a t I look back upon i t it's j u s t
f u l l of significance, "You white devils," you know, and
a l l t h a t s o r t of thing. I t h u r t her because we were h e r
I
Pepperr
Riessr
Pepper t
l o r d and lady and prince, and she was l o y a l t o us, whereas
we were j u s t s t r a n g e r s t o the people on the other s i d e
of the fence and as s t r a n g e r s ve were obnoxious. That's
before there was any war f e e l i n g at a l l . W
e were j u s t
white s t r a n g e r s -- no colonial f e e l i n g or anything l i k e
that.
But the t e r r i f i c poverty o f the Indians and the
Chinese, the s e r v i l i t y of the Javanese.. .I think 1 found
i t r a t h e r amusing t h a t we would drive along with four
horses on a ca.rriage, l i t t l e horses, and we'd be s i t t i n g
i n the back with a driver and a coachma running over
these b e a u t i f u l , o f t e n paved but always well-craded roads,
and then t h e r e were mud tracks on e i t h e r s i d e of the roads
and t h a t ' s where the natives had t o go with t h e i r c a r t s .
And as we went by the n a t i v e s vould a l l s t o p and kowtow
t o us. If they didn't and i t was a Dutchman there was
trouble. That seemed t o me r e t h e r strange. The comments
[ i n the diary] a r e remarkably impersonal, but now i t
j u s t i f i e s everything t h a t ' s been done i n driving the
Dutch out. Those scenes come back with a comment. Now,
t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g . So t h i s d i a r y is r a t h e r important
t o m
e -- but the funny thing is t h a t I remember i t anyway.
The f a c t of writing i t out probably has something t o do
with it, but the memories a r e very, very vivid.
Do you remember your f a t h e r t r y i n g t o explain t o you about
how these people stood i n r e l a t i o n t o you?
Oh, no, he didn't explain t h a t s o r t of thing at all. He
was not p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t e d i n s o c i a l r e l a t i o n s , j u s t
on a very personal basis, f r i e n d t o friend. I think he
saw the world r a t h e r as a picture. Oh, he'd seen poverty
i n I t a l y and Spain, and r e a l l y poverty i n Spain is only
a grade b e t t e r than i t is i n those places.
Pepper: And we weren't s o f a r from poverty i n our own families.
M
y grandfather's parents were pioneers i n New England, big
families, ten, 12 children. They would have one p a i r of
shoes when they g o t dressed up and they would go barefoot
t o church and put t h e i r shoes on when they went i n the
vestry. They would cut wood barefoot, the kids i n the
winter standing on shingles outside, They knew r e a l
poverty. T h a t v s very close behind. M
y f a t h e r ' s grand-
f a t h e r was a marginal farmer i n the e a s t of Massachusetts
and $5 meant an awful l o t t o him when he s e n t i t t o h i s
boy at college. Hy grandfather l i v e d very, very meagerly.
Well, now, of course interspersed there was my mother's
f a t h e r and t h e i r brothers who made a g r e a t fortune i n
lumber, That was the Maine lands thing. I don't say i t
was a fluke, because i t was very i n t e l l i g e n t , but there
was poverty a l l around. No, I think with t h a t s o nearly
i n the background probably poverty didn't have the same
effect. I n f a c t , our pioneer ancestors were on a margin
of s t a r v a t i o n , you know. I f t h e i r crops d i d n ' t come
, 	 through they were i n trouble. The only thing was t h a t
they always had animals t o shoot, Haybe i t is kind of
surprising, I don't think I ever thought of i t before; my
f a t h e r was not very sociologically conscious, at l e a s t I
don't have any recollections of any more than h i s c a l l i n g
a t t e n t i o n t o the bloated stomachs of the beri-beri there
as something he probably thought r a t h e r unnecessary,
because i t was not only s t a r v a t i o n but i t was a bad kind
of food supply.
Riesst It would be i n t e r e s t i n g t o know how he explained t h i s ,
because several times you must have asked "why?"
Pepper: 	 No, t h a t ' s funny. The "why1' doesn't cross the mind of
a 12-year-old kid. It's the most impersonal, courageous,
strong age, and i t g e t s f o r t i f i e d f o r the next number of
Pepper: years. A s somebody points out, y o u ' l l f i n d the wars are
fought by boys a t j u s t the age when they're p a r t i c u l a r l y
unconsciously aware of t h e i r h o s t i l i t y t o t h e i r f a t h e r s
imd they'd l i k e t o k i l l somebody and there is an authorized
k i l l i n g .
Riess: I don't know t h a t theory. Hadn't they g o t t e n over t h a t
feeling?
Pepper: No, a t 18, 19, 20, 21, no -- before they a r e married,
n o s t of them. A t l e a s t i t used t o be,
Riess: It's an age of self-centeredness, too.
Pepper: Yes, they a r e self-centered, they haven't had much s u f f e r i n g
-- well, I wouldn't say t h a t , they've probably hdd plenty
but not i n the way we think of it. They haven't had the
problems t h a t come from g e t t i n g jobs, r a i s i n g families,
and s o on. But I do f e e l t h a t around 1
1
, 12, 13, is the
most impersonal age. Those boys a r e n ' t i n t e r e s t e d i n
girls, you know. It's a very curious thing. They've got
a c e r t a i n degree of independence, i n f a c t they never have
s o much i n a c e r t a i n way, and they have no r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
and very l i t t l e sense of s o c i a l significance, s u f f e r i n g ,
and s o on. I think y o u ' l l s e e t h a t i n m
y diary. But
l a t e r those memories came back with g r e a t impact. That,
I think, is the main thing I ' d say about t h a t d i a r y i n
those years. As f o r the d e t a i l of our t r a v e l s , it's
a l l there, more than I could probably remember anyhow.
EDUCATION
Preparing t o Enter Harvard
Pepper: 	 Then ve came back t o Concord. You'll see t h a t m
y s p e l l i n g
and m
y grammar g e t worse and worse as the diary goes on
-- I was thoroughly uneducated. I g o t other thinps from
t h a t year, but as f o r tho:;e books 1 s a i d I was going t o
s t u d y when I s t a r t e d out, I never looked st them. And my
parents never pushed me, they were very sensible.
Actually, i t was about as good a n age as t h a t could be
done,
There were two e l d e r l y l a d i e s , Abbey and Jane Hosmer,
who did t u t o r i a l work i n Concord, They had been teachers
i n the old achool and at one stage they hbd tauqht on a
Navaho reservation i n Arizona, end they had some of the
most b e a u t i f u l Navaho ru4;s I've ever seen, musum pieces.
, 	 What i n the world happened t o them I'd l i k e t o know; they
were marvelous and I admired thea as a kid, Anyhow, they
were obviously the people t o send m
e t o t o bring me up t o
m
y c l a s s , I was a whole year out, you see,
Riessr 	 Was i t while you were going t o regular school t h a t you had
t h i s t u t o r i a l work?
Peppers 	 No, M
y f a t h e r put m
e i n under these two women, and there
were a couple of other boys t h e r e a t the same time, both
very b r i g h t boys from a wealthy family t h a t l i v e d i n a
neighboring town, Lincoln, the Warren boys, W
e were a l l
headed f o r Harvard; anybody i n Concord was g o i w t o
Harvard, t h a t was obvious,
Riess: When did you r e a l i z e i t , o r was i t your decision?
Peppers M
y f a t h e r , I think, felt t h a t I was a l i t t l e of a sissy,
maybe, and he wanted me t o be a r e a l boy, and he had a
good reason f o r i t because a l l m
y aunts on my mother's
s i d e and even on my f a t h e r ' s wanted me t o 'be kind of a
dude, so there was a b i a s t h a t a man would not think was
too good. But Colby was s o r t of out. I t was p r e t t y
c l e a r t h a t I could do b e t t e r than Colby and I never thought
seriously of Colby.
Riess: I wonder when you s t a r t e d thinking about t h i s .
Pepper: Let's see. I began thinking about i t i n high school when
I was about 16. M
y f a t h e r took me up t o a physics
professor, Professor Hull, at Dartmouth. That was a good,
he-man place, and I think he rdther hoped I ' d go there.
W
e talked about Williams, too. Small colleges, you see,
with r e a l tough boys, p a r t i c u l a r l y Dartmouth. Very
a t h l e t i c . But a l l m
y f r i e n d s were going t o Harvard and
Harvard had the prestige. After a l l , i f I could go t o
Harvard i t seemed r i d i c u l o u s not t o go there. So I
, decided, 'all r i g h t , but i t was c u l t u r a l l y decided f o r m
e
i n the whole context of Concord. Not t o have gone t o
Harvard would have been not understood, and i t was lucky
t h a t I did. It was the place t o go, a l l r i g h t , p a r t i c u l a r l y
f o r me.
I hadn't thought of these two teachers of mine f o r a
long time. I d i d very well with them and t h e i r idea was
t h a t I should be president of Harvard sometime. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
Harvard was the place. They guided m
e i n a very s u b t l e
way, a l l right.
Riess: You didn't s t a y with these two teachers; you eventually
went hick t o high school?
Pepper:
Riesst
Pepper:
Well, these two teachers l i v e d i n a farrahouse a t the edge
of town, a couple of miles from where ve were. I ' d be
taken down there i n the morning. They had only these
three boys a t t h a t time, with occasional others.
I should not s k i p the introduction, because m
y f a t h e r
took me down there and they s a i d , "Well, l e t ' s s e t t l e down
f o r the morning and see where he is." So they asked me
some questions and hsd me do some arithmetic and s p e l l i n g ,
some geography and so on, end then they t o l d m
y f a t h e r ,
"We might as well start from the beginning.' [ ~ a ~ h t e r ]
It was marvelous. The f i r s t thing they did was t o teach
m
e t o study. They would never l e t m
e work i f m
y a t t e n t i o n
wasn't on it. When my a t t e n t i o n began to wander and they
couldn't p u l l i t back, they'd say, "Well, now, we'll stop
and you go out and look a t the guinea hens." They had
guinea hens and other kinds of hens. So I ' d go out and
a f t e r ten minutes I ' d come back. But they i n s i s t e d t h a t
I should have m
y mind on i t every minute t h a t I was there.
M
y a t t e n t i o n span apparently w a s not too long t o begin
w i t h , but i t increzsed rapidly, and they had the f a c u l t y
of g e t t i n g you j u s t t e r r i f i c a l l y I n t e r e s t e d i n everything
-- i n Latin, i n arithmetic, i n geography, even spelling.
They took up everything, a l l the things t h a t I should have
had. a
How had they been educated?
he^? Oh, they were highly cultured New England women. I
don't believe women went t o college; I think they would
have gone through an academy somewhere, which would be a
rigorous education i n those days -- I guess i t would be
at l e a s t equal t o our high school education but i n a much
narrower and more rigorous i n s t r u c t i o n -- and I think
Pepper: 	 probably they would have gone out from there. But they
were very well read. Coming from the town of Concord, they
knew Emerson and Hawthorne, and they were p e r f e c t l y marve-
lous teachers. The Hosmers were an old Concord family,
going back t o Revolutionary days, t o the founding of t h e
town i n 1635.
Riess: 	 This was t h e i r livelihood f o r many years?
Pepper: 	 Well, they r e t i r e d as teachers and t h i s was a livelihood,
They became famous t u t o r s and I guess m
y f a t h e r paid them
p r e t t y well f o r what was the c o s t i n thoss days. I went
there every day f i v e days a week. I probably took m
y
lunch v i t h me. But i t vas a good day I had there.
Riess: 	 Did you l i k e the Warren boys?
Pepper: 	 Yes. W
e were r i v a l s , but one of them I thought a l i t t l e
d u l l , though he was smart, too. The older Warren boy was
r e a l l y smart. He had a wonderful mind. Why didn't he
make more of i t is still kind of a mystery t o me, but
t h a t 's something t h a t has ceased to be a surprise. I 've
seen groups of most b r i l l i a n t graduate students come
through here and elsewhere; any one of them seemed t o
,
have promise of a g r e a t name. One o r two perhaps do
p r e t t y well in f u t u r e l i f e . Things happen. And i t i s n vt
always the most b r i l l i a n t one t h a t comes through, e i t h e r .
He may commit suicide. I was with a very b r i l l i a n t group
i n m
y graduate group at Harvard, and one of the most
b r i l l i a n t committed suicide j u s t a f t e r he'd written a
book. It's very o f t e n the fellow t h a t has the capacity
f o r work, j u s t p l a i n downright work, with l e s s b r i l l i a n c e
than the others, t h a t comes through. The combination of
c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s t h a t makes a man a success i n a f t e r - l i f e
i n whatever he goes i n t o is a combination of t a l e n t s ;
Pepper: 	 b r i l l i a n c e is just the beginning and i t i s n ' t enough. Ed
Warren was one of the most b r i l l i a n t boys I ' d been with,
and he came through r a t h e r comfortably, but he ended up
as a teacher at a p r i v a t e school. It seemed such a waste
of such b r i l l i a n c e .
Riess: 	 What were the people i n high school doing? Were they a l s o
preparing t o go t o Harvard?
Pepper: 	 There was a college preparatory group. Well, they went
various places. One of them went t o M.I.T. of m
y group.
Incidentally, these teachers put m e r i g h t up i n t o the top
O f m
y c l a s s when I went in.
Riess: 	 Where you had never been before?
Pepper: I don' t remember where I was. I was a l l r i g h t , but I was
r i g h t a t the top i n everything r i g h t o f f . With t h i s
capacity f o r study, you see, I ' d never waste anything
when I was studying.
Well, one of them went t o M.I.T., one of them went
t o Harvard, one of the g i r l s went t o Bryn Mawr. The group
was n o t awfully big, the college preparatory group, b u t
, most of them went t o some good college roundabout.
I ' d g o t along, i t was i n my last year, about two
months i n t o the year, when m
y f a t h e r went down t o t a l k
t o a Mr. Eaton, who w a s the p r i n c i p a l of the school and
taught Latin, by the way, and one of the f i n e s t teachers
I ever had. H e told m
y f a t h e r t h a t he couldn't g e t m
e
i n t o Iiarvard t h a t year. Well, t h a t was a shock t o m
y
father. He s a i d t h a t with what they had available a t the
high school there most of the students of course did n o t
go t o college. l t l s the same problem we have i n our high
schools here. He j u s t couldn't guarantee to g e t m
e i n
although I was doing very, very well, a t the end of the
Pepper: year, passing those Harvard exams which were r a t h e r s t i f f .
They had s p e c i a l Harvard examinations i n +hose days, they
d i d n ' t use the College Board. I n f a c t , the Board only
came i n about t h a t time.
Riess: And s o the schools geared t h e i r teaching t o passing these
exams?
Pepper : They geared t h e i r teaching t o the majority. They would
guarantee t o g e t t h e i r college preparatory groug i n t o collegq
a l l r i g h t , but n o t i n four years. I n f s c t , m
y g r e a t chum
who went t o Harvard went i n the year a f t e r t h a t and did
a l l r i g h t .
But t h a t d i d n ' t s u i t my f a t h e r . He pulled m
e out
and p a t me i n a very f i n e college pra?paratory day school,
Browne and Nichols, i n Cambridge. I used t o commute in.
They d i d a magnificent job of preparing you f o r g e t t i n g
i n t o college, They would give you every week a p a s t exam-
i n a t i o n i n your s u b j e c t -- Latin, history,- mathematics,
whatever i t was -- s o t h a t you got p e r f e c t l y used t o taking
the Harvard exams. F i n a l l y when you took them i t was j u s t
another exam. The i n s t r u c t i o n w a s the very best. It w a s
a* excellent school. A s I ' v e s a i d , I was r a t h e r big, and
t h e i r f o o t b a l l team w a s not doing too well, and they put
tremendous pressure on me t o g e t on the f o o t b a l l team.
But I was at Concord and a l l my h e a r t was with t h e woods
and the r i v e r and the flowers and the b u t t e r f l i e s . They
never were a b l e t o persuade me t o g e t on the team.
Riess: I should think those would beoome r e a l l y tremendous
pressures on you.
Pepper: Well, as I look back upon i t I think i t might i n many
I
1I
I
r e s p e c t s have been a good thing f o r me
the team. %
t o have been on
I
I
I
Riessr
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
SO.
Your f a t h e r had t o l d you how to f i g h t ; d i d he suggest t h a t
i t might be a good idea f o r you t o be a f o o t b a l l player
too?
NO. I think they were r a t h e r a f r a i d of i n j u r i e s i n football.
M
y mother d e f i n i t e l y didn't want me t o go bn and m
y f a t h e r
put no pressure on me, So at home there was no pressure,
But there was plenty a t school. I r e s i s t e d i t , and I
r e a l l y to t h i s day don't know whether i t wouldnlt have been
b e t t e r t o g e t soasthing o f t h a t ~ i d e
of boyst l i f e which I
never got, o r t o have lived s o r t of the poet's l i f e which
I did with my Concord friends.
I mare some very good f r i e n d s there a t Browne and
Nichols. Anong them wa.s another of the most b r i l l i a n t
minds I have ever known, the grandson of President E l i o t ,
and he hasn't done what h i s mind should have done, He's
a teacher now of dramatic arts at Smith College and has
not written much of anything, but he could write blank
verae as e a s i l y as prose and i t was r a t h e r good. Any
kind of writing was j u s t as easy as could be t o him. He
Cidn't study very much, he could absorb a aubjecB i n no
t
time, s t r a i g h t "Aw student s o far as I r e c a l l , a l l the way
through. What went wrong?
I ' d l i k e t o ask what you e ~ p e c t e dof him, and of the f r i e n d
who became a t e ~ c h e ri n a preparatory school.
Oh, f o r t h i s young E l i o t t o be a T.S. E l i o t , f o r instance.
By the Kay, I knew T.S. E l i o t . lie w a s two yezrs ahead of
me i n graduate school. Mow, & didn't look awfully promis-
ing. H
e was not an awfully good philosophy student. Being
two yesrs ahead of m
e i n graduate school, t h a t was j u s t l i k e
being miles -- l i k e a freshman t a l k i n g t o a senior, you
know. But I met him and talked with him. H i s poetry
seemed awfully funny and I thought i t was queer, and he
--
Peppert
Riesst 

Pepper: 

Riesst 

Peppera
Riess:
Pepper:
didn't impress me as very much. Certainly as b r i l l i a n t o r
i n t e l l i g e n t , no, there vas nothing p a r t i c u l a r l y b r i l l i a n t
about him. But look. So these things are r e a l l y strange.
Whereas t h i s young Sam E l i o t had a l l the makings of a very
g r e a t c r i t i c , and possibly a d r a d i s t . I expected him t o
be one of the g r e a t l i t e r a r y f i g u r e s of America, and r e a l l y
I don't know why he i s n ' t .
But you're n o t saying t h a t the man is wasted who ends up
as the teacher?
Oh, no. But t h i s young Warren and t h i s E l i o t , absolutely
supreme i n t e l l i g e n c e s , and E l i o t was not only a wonderful
machine -- and Warren might have been more, h i s sense of
values might not have been very g r e a t -- but E l i o t , of one
of the most c u l t i v a t e d families of America -- why wasn't
he a Henry James o r a W i l l i a m James? As far as the looks
o f t h a t man, and the way he could g e t i n an hour what would
take me two o r three hours t o get... Well, those things a r e
mysteries.
I ' m i n t e r e s t e d t h a t you have t h i s concern -- I don't think
very many people do -- with people l i v i n g up t o what you
expect of then. I t could be all-consuming.
Well, I c e r t a i n l y expected t o l i v e up t o m
y expectations,
which I didn't take t o be too g r e a t , you see, and here
were these men who I regarded as having g r e e t e r capacity
than I had. That's the kind of things I mean.
I guess then t h e question i s what they thought they would
end up doing; i f you knew t h a t they had expected b e t t e r
things of themselves
I don't know whether they d i d . Warren I don't think
probably had much anbition. Sam E l i o t I don't understfind,
though. I ' d think he would have had plenty of ambition.
He must have had a p i l e of i n h i b i t i o n s involved i n there
Pepper: somewhere. He s t u t t e r e d , which would be an indication.
When h e e n t e r e d as a freshman he was with our crowd from
the beginning.
Undergraduzte Years a t Harvard
Pepper: The l i t t l e Browne and Nichols crowd went i n , we stood
together, about seven o r e i g h t of us, and we hitched on
t o soae o t h e r s s o there was a group of about twenty o r
t h i r t y of us t h a t kept p r e t t y c l o s e together a l l through
college. I t began as a Rrowne and Nichols group and w
e
weren't enough t o c o n t r o l a t a b l e a t t h e b i g Memorial
dining h e l l , s o w
e hitched on t o another group which
a l s o had n o t enough t o c o n t r o l a t a b l e , ~ n d
t h a t made
t h i s group, and we s t u c k together a l l through c o l l e g e
and f i n a l l y ended up in the s e n i o r year -- with a few
dropped and a few acided -- c o n t r o l l i n g an e n t r y i n the
Yard. They had a l l the s e n i o r s i n the Ye.rd i n the
s e n i o r year, and. we c o n t r o l l e d an e n t r y , s o we were a
p r e t t y compact body from the besinning.
Riess: They d i d n ' t have clubs then?
Pepper: Oh, they had clubs, b u t we looked down on those clubs.
W
e were the r e a l Harvzrd. Those c l u b s were q u i t e aris-
t o c r a t i c , they j u s t came o u t of these boarding schools,
Milton, Croton, Middlesex and those places. Browne and
Nichols j u s t wasn't i n t h a t c l a s s . Add w
e were not
e n t h u s i a s t i c about these clubs. They v e r e n ' t r e a l
Harvard men. Actually, they were n o t very numerous.
F r a t e r n i t i e s were ; ~ b s o l u t e l yout a t Harvard; t h e r e were
a few of them b u t w
e had no use f o r thein a t a l l , and they
still don't. Harvard stood f o r individualism and wasn't
going t o be dominated by any group of n a t i o n a l f r a t e r n i t i e s
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
of any kind, and I think t h a t ' s very healthy,
Iqcidentally, these p r i v a t e schools alqo v i r t u a l l y
t r a i n a t h l e t e s , so t h a t the best-trained a t h l e t e s i n
America came out of these p r i v a t e schools a t t h a t time.
It worked both ways, These were the a t h l e t i c clubs and
they would take i n anybody from anywhere e l s e t h a t was
a very f i n e a t h l e t e , and they did, because of t h e i r
organization, huve a c e r t a i n degree cf a r i s t o c r a t i c place.
They tended t o control the e l e c t i o n s , j u s t as the
f r a t e r n i t i e s do here, but every once i n a while the hoi
p o l l o i -- and i t was a good many once i n a while -- would
g e t up on t h e i r hind l e g s and organize and knock them down.
W
e had no respect f o r those fellows at a l l ; they were the
scum of the earth.
There was a so-called Dicky, which wss a n outlawed
group, Delta Kappa Epsilon, the DKEs. That's m
y f a t h e r ' s
f r a t e r n i t y a t Colby. They were ousted f o r ill behaviour
a t Harvard, and then somehow o r other they took on new
l i f e as t h e entering assembly, so t o speak, f o r those
t h a t were going on t o the higher clubs -- the Pudding,
and three o r four, there weren't many.
Nobody who wasn't a Dicky could get i n t o the Pudding?
Nobody went i n t o the Pudding t h a t hadn't gone through the
Dicky, and the Dicky took them i n i n groups of twenty
and I think they took i n about 100 men ia the course of
a year. By no means a l l the Dickys made Pudding a t a l l .
There was another society, P i E t a , t h d t had a very
fine house, a b r i c k house on a b e a u t i f u l l o t r i g h t near
Harvard Square, t h a t took those t h a t d i d n ' t g e t i n t o
-- they took outsiders of one kind o r another. That was
a club of about three or f o u r hundred, I guess, m d my
junior year some of the f r i e n d s I ' d acquired so t o speak
Pepper: on the o u t s k i r t s asked me t o come i n t o that club. Well,
a l l my f r i e n d s a t the table were j u s t absolutely opposed
to t h i s , but I had a kind of c u r i o s i t y t o know what went
on i n these clubs. P a r t i c u l a r l y I wanted t o know what
hazing w a s . And m
y f a t h e r , of course, f e l t t h a t t h i s
must be something very important. A t Colby i f you didn' t
belong t o one of the f r a t e r n i t i e s up there, why, i t was
too bad. So he urged m
e t o join, and m
y mother likewise,
s o I joined.
That gave me two groups of f r i e n d s who never, never
merged. It w a s l i k e o i l and water. M
y basic friendships
always remained with the table, s o t o speak, but I did
get q u i t e a l i t t l e experience, and I c e r t a i n l y learned a
l o t about hazing. They had three days of hazing. (The
Dicky had a week, by the way, which shows how superior
the Dicky was. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ] )
They had t h r e e days and they
kept you up a l l one n i g h t i n the process, took turns t o
keep you awake. Well, i t w a s an i n t e r e s t i n g thing, but
i t was a kind of a tangential p a r t of college l i f e .
Riess: It was easy enough t o keep the bridge?
Pepper: Oh, I would go down and have half m
y meals with the P i
E t a and half with the o t h e r crowd. Until the senior year
there was no dormitory set-up a t a l l a t Harvard. Every-
body l i v e d around i n boarding houses. They d i d n ' t have
much housing a t Harvard. I n the s e n i o r year they gave
over three or f o u r h a l l s t o the seniors. Our class was
a t t h a t time supposed t o be p r e t t y large, about 700, and
they gave those h a l l s over t o u s and assigned e n t r i e s t o
groups, you see.
M
y first year I roomed with an old Concord high
school rnate~ofmine who had gone down t o Monclair, N
.
J
.
,
and somehow o r other they'd g o t him i n t o Harvard the
same time I did. H i s name was Laurence Sie@ied and
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riessr 

Pepper: 

he bec~rneq u i t e a prominent p r i n t e r , head of t h e p r i n t i n g
estsblishment a t Syracuse University. Then w
e hitched on
t o another boy who hzd taken h i s e n t r a n c e exams with t h i s
f r i e n d Laurence of mine i n New York, John Adams, J, Donald
Adams, Our second y e a r we t h r e e g o t a room together, and
a l s o t h e t h i r d year. J. Donald Adams had a g i f t Rr
w r i t i n g and he was almost immediately taken as e d i t o r o f
t h e Monthly. H
e went i n t o r e p o r t i n g f o r a while and then
teaching English a l i t t l e and ended up as editor-in-chief
o f the New York Times L i t e r a r y Supplement. He resigned
from t h a t , b u t he s t i l l has a column i n the $ f t e r a r y Sup-
plement. So you see he became q u i t e a fellow, And l e t
m
e s a y t h i t n e i t h e r of those boys I would call b r i l l i a n t .
I s n ' t t h e t i n t e r e s t i w ? And Don is very s u c c e s s f u l , of
course, and Laurence q u i t e .
Another one of o u r chums became head of t h e American
Geographic S o c i e t y a t a very e a r l y age; he was the first
man t o m ~ k ea p o s i t i o n of r e a l r e p u t a t i o n i n our crowd,
and he wss the f i r s t man t o r e t i r e , by t h e way, a t t h e
age of s i x t y o r so. Those H-~rvardboys do somehow t u r n
o u t t o be p r e t t y darned good boys, the Lord knows why.
Were you i n on the lit e r a r y a c t i v i t y ?
Oh, I used t o send i n poems and a r t i c l e s t h a t they never
accepted.
Were you studying hard, o r was i t a c a r e f r e e f o u r years?
Oh, I s t u d i e d hard enough. I t was very easy a t Harvard
i n those days. It was very h s r d t o g e t i n , b u t very easy
once you were i n , and a l o t of t h e boys went through i n
t h r e e years,
Even t h e Croton group?
Oh, no, the Croton group -- I even now speak with scorn,
you see [laughing] -- they were gentleman Cs, n e a r l y a l l
Pepper: 	 of them. A t l e a s t t h a t ' s what we thought, and c e r t a i n l y
a good many of them were. They knew how t o f i n d the snap
COUrSeSr
W
e were i n the last c l a s s i n E l i o t ' s f r e e e l e c t i v e
system, because Lowell j u s t came i n the year we came in.
That w a s 1909, the year of entrance, and Lowell was inau-
gurated i n 1909. A s quickly as he could he s h i f t e d t o
what has now become the p r a c t i c a l l y universal college
p a t t e r n of breadth requirements and a major. The reason
f o r t h a t was j u s t t o catch these fellows t h a t found i t s o
easy t o go through. A l l you had t o do was t o have 16
courses with a C average plus a course i n English, any
16 courses at all. The only required course w a s English,
Those a r e almost a l l all-year courses, by the way, they
d i d n ' t have half-year courses i n those days as I r e c a l l .
They were f o u r four-year courses and four f o u r s a r e 16.
You could f e e l around t o f i n d 16 snap courses very e a s i l y
and they passed i t around among the students what they
were.
That wasn't the way m
y crowd went through college,
but t h e r e were a couple among them t h a t went through i n
three years. Sam E l i o t took f i v e courses, and a f r i e n d
of mine who has become a doctor since, and a very good
one, i n Boston, went through i n three years because he
wanted t o go on to medical school quickly. It was very
easy; you had t o work hard, but i f you attended t o business
you could g e t through i n three years very e a s i l y a t Harvard
at t h a t time.
Riess: 	 Did you t r y ?
Pepper: 	 No. That's what I ' m saying. Sure, I worked on m
y courses
hard enough, but m
y f a t h e r m i d -- again, t h a t s e n s i b l e
f a t h e r of mine -- H i s f a t h e r was president of Colby when
Pepper: 	 he was a student t h e r e and he took i t very h a r d and f e l t
he had t o be j u s t tops, you s e e , and he had a nervous
breakdown at the end of h i s Junior year. He had t o graduate
a year late. They d i d what they d i d then: they s e n t him on
a sailiw s h i p a c r o s s t o the Azores and he t r a v e l e d through
Europe and came back cured,
He t o l d me when I went t o c o l l e g e , 'Now, don't t r y t o
be a P h i Beta." He's a Phi Beta; he was a Phi Beta on h i s
t h r e e years there; he l e t down on h i s f o u r t h year, b u t he
was s o good a t h i s t h r e e t h a t he g o t a Phi Beta anyhow.
And my a u n t ' s a Phi Beta. O f course my g r a n d f a t h e r ' s a
Phi Beta. Everybody's a Phi Beta. He s a i d , Wow, don't
you t r y t o be a Phi Beta, i t j u s t i s n ' t worth i t . You
j u s t head f o r B s and i f the A s come, okay." And i t was
t h e very b e s t advice t h a t could be given. There was no
s t r a i n on me. I s t u d i e d as I wanted to, what I wanted t o ,
and I g o t a good l i t t l e s p r i n k l i n g of As, came out cum
laude, but n o t a Phi Beta Kappa, eventually g e t t i n g an
honorary Phi Beta Ka:>pa here [laughing], by the back door.
Riess: 	 Did you know t h a t you were heading f o r graduate school
then?
Pepper: 	 No. I was heading f o r law. I d i d n ' t know whqt I w a s
~ o i n g
i n t o . But when I g o t i n t o my junior year I wandered
around taking courses t h a t i n t e r e s t e d me on t h i n g s t h a t I
thought I ' d l i k e t o take. I dropped i n t o a course on
e t h i c s , I d i d n ' t know what i t w . ~ sa t a l l , by a f e l l o w
c a l l e d Palmer.
Well, Palmer is one of the g r e a t t e , ~ c h e r sof America,
and by the time I g o t through with t h a t -- i n f a c t , I
hadn't gone more than h a l f through the course -- I knew
t h a t I wanted t o be a philosopher. That was j u s t what I
Peppers w n t e d t o be. A t the end of t h e oourse I vent up t o him.
It was a famous course, s o i t was a r a t h e r l a r g e course,
t h a t is t o s a y t h e r e were about 100 s t u d e n t s i n it. It
was a s t r a i g h t l e c t u r e course, g i v e n with such intimacy
t h a t you f e l t he was talking t o you, and i t was a marve-
lous, mnrvelous job, b e a u t i f u l l y organized. So I went
up t o him a f t e r the course w a s over and s a i d , "Professor
Palmer, I ' v e decided a f t e r going through t h i s course t h a t
I want t o be a philosopher."
"Oh, don't," he said. "Don't. W
e don't know what
we're going t o do, it's a n over-crowded profession, it's
a t t r a c t i v e , and w
e never know how we're going t o place
the men t h a t w
e have. Don't. Do anything else."
Well, t h a t determined me r i g h t there.
Riess: 	 Did he know you well, o r were you j u s t one of the students?
Pepper: 	 Oh, I was j u s t one of the names. I g o t an A i n there, of
course. Having been i n h i s shoes since, I think probably
you'd know, you'd catch the name. You n o t i c e the A s and
you n o t i c e the D s and the Es. The Cs and most of t h e Bs
you don't.
Riess: 	 Di'd they operate with teaching a s s i s t a n t s ?
Pepper: He had a reader, no te:~chinga s s i s t a n t , but he would go
over a good many of the papers because a l o t of them had
h i s own personal remarks on them.
When he s a i d , "Oh, no," t h a t s e t m
y mind. Nobody was
going t o t e l l me "no." That f i x e d i t , I was going t o be a
philosopher. I guess I mulled over i t f o r some months
more, but i t was with some t r e p i d a t i o n I announced t o my
family I thought I ' d be a philosopher, expecting them t o
be dismayed. But they weren't. They thought i t was a
f i n e idya, s o I had no opposition there.
But immediately I made t h a t decision I d i d n ' t study
any more philosophy as an undergraduate because I knew i t
Pepper, center, with J. Donald Adams 

and Laurence Siegfried (labeled the 

"triumvirate") graduation of Harvard 

class of 1913. 

Pepper: would be m
y last chance t o spread. So 1 took every other
kind of course. I made m
y decision the end of the junior
year, which meant t h a t I had another year, and I d i d n ' t
take any philosophy i n my senior year. I took every o t h e r
kind of thing t h a t I was i n t e r e s t e d in.
Riess: The f r e e e l e c t i v e system.
Pepper: That's r i g h t . There were no majors, you see. The r e s u l t
is t h a t I came i n t o graduate philosophy school very unpre-
pared. Our s t u d e n t s here come i n t o our graduate school
with a major i n philosophy I guess more than the equiva-
.
l e n t of m
y first year of graduate work a t Harvard. The
r e s u l t was t h a t i n the seminars I was completely a t s e a
f o r weeks a t the technical vocabulary and the speed of
discussion. However, I got along a l l r i g h t . I mean, I
g o t out of i t , I took my M.A. i n 1914 ( I gradueted i n
1913), The M.A. i n those days simply meant t h a t you'd
passed your qualifying examinations f o r the Ph. D,
Riess: And people didn't usually s t o p there?
Pepper: Oh, some did, but they were not very good. W
e had t h a t
system here f o r a long time. I n f a c t , I think it's r t h e r
sen'sible. It c u t s down on f a c u l t y r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s . One
s e t of exams does both, you see.
Marriage and Travel, 1914
Pepper: What I'm going t o say now has something t o do with the
f a c t t h a t there was money i n the family, dnd I think m
y
mother probably thought i t gave a s o r t of prestige. (She
wanted me, by the way, t o room alone a t Harvard. M
y
f a t h e r s a i d , "No, l e t him room with somebody." M
y f a t h e r
was always r i g h t on those things, but I think m
y mother
was r i g h t very s u b t l y i n urging me t o go t o Hzrvard.
Pepper t
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper:
That w a s r i g h t , but she had kind of an a r i s t o c r a t i c feeling.
I think she would have l i k e d t o have had me go t o Middlesex
i f she'd thoroughly r e a l i z e d what i t a l l meant. But thank
the Lord, f didn't.)
Well, anyway, she l i k e d the idea of m
y g e t t i n g a
degree abroad, and t h a t was j u s t the t r a n s i t i o n time,
before World W
a
r I, when i t gave c r e d i t t o a man, i t was
a s o r t of s p e c i a l f e a t h e r i n h i s h a t , i f he had a degree
abroad. Right before t h a t i t w a s very much the thing;
i f you had a foreign degree, why, t h a t was supposed t o be
much b e t t e r , and there were not many degrees i n America
t h a t amounted t o much -- Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia,
b u t Columbia r e a l l y d i d n ' t r a t e too much then. So 1 w a s
planning t o go t o Berlin.
b u t i n the maantime I got i n t e r e s t e d i n a g i r l , a
Concord g i r l from a very f i n e Concord family. W
e had
known each other ever s i n c e we were kids. W
e used t o play
together a l l through the high school time and before t h a t .
It w a s a r e a l high school romance. She d i d n ' t give me too
easy a time of i t , but she says what brought i t t o a head
b 

was she d i dn 't want m
e t o go abroad alone. [~ a u g h i n g ] 

M
y family s a i d they would give me enough of an allowance 

s o t h a t I could afford a wife i f we l i v e d reasonably. 

That's where t h a t l i t t l e allowance came in. 

They knew her and l i k e d her. 

Oh, yes. She's a sweet g i r l , everything was r i g h t . 

What had she been doing about going t o school? 

Oh, she went t o Concord High School and spent a couple of 

years at Miss Wheeler's f i n i s h i n g s h o o l i n Providence. 

Her mother and her aunt f e l t t h a t i t wasn't becoming f o r 

a g i r l t o go t o college. She wauld love t o have gone t o 

college, but she didn't want t o go t o Radcliffe. Radcliffe 

Pepper: 	 had a bad name with the boys, and a t any r a t e , she d i d n ' t
go t o college. That's t h a t intervening time where girls
were l a d i e s and waited till they were married. Well, we
were married very early. I and a boy i n biology who
married one of m
y wife's very b e s t f r i e n d s were, t o my
knowledge, the only married graduate s t u d e n t s at Harvard
i n those years. It was a very unusual thing t o do.
With her, as I found out afterwards, f e e l i n g some
doubts as t o whether I could take care o f h e r abroad --
[laughing] I was r a t h e r immature i n a good many ways --
we s e t o f f a c r o s s the ocean, by bodt o f course. W
e n e t
on board one of the p r i n c i p a l teachers at Milton, and
t h a t ' s one of the first times t h a t I g o t a b e t t e r impression
of Milton and these p r i v a t e schools than I ' d had before,
He was charming and h i s wife was charming. They were
probably ten years o l d e r than we, but t h a t would make them
s t i l l p r e t t y young. They were o f f on a t r i p , and we agreed
t o meet up again at Venice, W
e landed i n Genoa and we had
a n i c e time i n Venice. This w a s kind of a honeymoon, you
see. Then the four of us went up t o Botzen i n the Austrian
Dolbmites, and we planned t o be there f o r about t e n days,
which we were,
W
e noticed t h a t people were gclthering around s i g n s
on the t r e e s , but my German was very poor and M
r
. Lane's
w a s not too good e i t h e r . W
e weren't watching papers, W
e
went down t o the h o t e l o f f i c e and s a i d we'd probably be
going the next day. How did the t r a i n s run?
"There a r e j u s t two more t r a i n s f o r the next two
weeks. "
"What?"
"One is going t o I t a l y and the other is going t o
Germany. 

"Why, what i s going on?' 

Pe2per: 	 "The army i s m ~ b i l i z i n g . ~
" H o b i l i ~ i n g ? ~
"Yes, t h e r e ' s a war.
Oh, well, well, well, This was 1914, of course. So
Ellen and I decided t o go up t o t h a t steady, s t a b l e oountry
i n the North where you could r e l y on people, Munich, where-
as the other p a i r f o r reasons of t h e i r own decided t o do
something q u i t e d i f f e r e n t . As a matter of f a c t , they
had q u i t e an adventure, They decided t o g e t i n t o Switzer-
land by a roundabout means, which they did.
Riess: It was necessary t o go by roundabout means?
Pepper: Yes, there were no regular t r a i n s a t a l l . You had t o go
by stages and things, horse things, They had q u i t e an
adventure g e t t i n g i n there.
So we g o t t o Munich.
Riess: What d i d you think you were going t o do about school?
Pepper: Oh, well, now the important thing t o do w a s t o g e t out of
the war and i n t o a region where there w a s peace.
So we a r r i v e d i n Munich j u s t as they declared war,
arid there were no p o r t e r s i n the s t a t i o n . W
e discovered
t h a t there were no t a x i s running, nothing. The c i t y was
at an absolute s t a n d s t i l l and everybody w a s c a l l e d o f f
.
i n t o the army, W
e discovered there was a h o t e l r i g h t
a c r o s s the square, opposite the s t a t i o n , s o I detached
the s t r a p from one of the bass and did the regular p o r t e r
thing and threw the b a ~ s
over m
y shoulder, c a r r i e d the
others. I n those days you traveled with a l o t of luggage.
W
e hdd trunks, too, and things, but I think we s e n t our
trunks on by express and they were supposed t o be at the
American Express Company. W
e went across and they l e t us
i n the h o t e l , 	but of course we had no money a t a l l . The
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
Riess:
Pepper:
banks were closed, American money was worthless -- we

d i d n ' t have much anyway -- we couldn't g e t a b i t of c r e d i t . 

W
e were strapped, 

Is your wife an adventurer? 

Oh, yes. She's swell. 

I n a c e r t a i n way i t wasn't s o bad a n w , but t h a t ' s
t h e condition.
Well, w
e had a l e t t e r of i n t r o d u c t i o n from a German
p r o f e s s o r a t Harvard who was a f r i e n d of my wife's family,
and t h e next day I walked up t o t h e i r place, about a mile
away on a very charming by-street n o t far from t h e g r e a t
park t h e r e , the Englisher Garten -- corresponds t o the
Golden Gate Park h e r e -- and Molsen-Hostrop, two women
t h a t kept t h i s - Those two women, n o t knowins us a t a l l
except t h a t we were f r i e n d s of the Franke's -- the German
professor -- loaned u s enough money t o pc:y the h o t e l b i l l
and some e x t r a , took u s r i g h t in. W
e weren't a b l e t o g e t
any money except what we borrowed from them.
Nobody suggested t h 3 t you should g e t out?
W
e couldn't. W
e could have i f we'd gone r i g h t o u t , but
I
goodness gracious, w
e had our trunks, and my passport
was i n the trunk which was supposed t o be a t American
Express -- l u c k i l y i t was there.
But w
e never dreamed there'd be a g r e a t war. W
e
l i v e d i n c i v i l i z e d times where l i t t l e things l i k e Boer
Wars and Spanish Wars could happen, but g r e a t Napoleonic
wars, no. W
e were c i v i l i z e d , we were a l l headed f o r a
world democracy, and there were n o t going t o be any more
g r e a t wars. People were r a t i o n a l nowadays. So we r e a l l y
hardly believed t h a t t h i s meant what i t meant, b u t w
e g o t
a p r e t t y good impression of i t by the end of the t h r e e
weeks t h a t we were t h e r e ,
Pepper: One of t h e s t r a n g e t h i n g s is t h a t without having had
any p r e p a r a t i o n f o r t h i s t h i n g before, we began t o t h i n k
t h a t the Germans had a n idea. You know, i n a way they did.
T h i s world war was very d i f f e r e n t from the n e x t one. The
i d e o l o g i c a l background of i t was very much t h e same as you
g e t i n W
a
r and Peace of Tolstoy. Did y ~ u
e v e r read t h a t ?
Well, I read t h z t a few y e a r s l a t e r and i t was s o c l o s e t o
t h e whole set-up of World W
a
r I t h a t i t r e d l y was aston-
i s h i n g . The i s s u e i s between a u n i f i e d Europe o r a dismem-
bered, i n t e r n a l l y competing and combatting Europe. Napoleon
had the i d e a of having one g r e a t Europe, and n o t i c e now we
a r e h ~ v i n git. I t h i n k t h i s is the r i g h t way t o do i t now,
b u t i t w a s Napoleon's idea, and i t was the German K a i s e r ' s
i d e a -- at l e a s t as we were h e ~ r i n gi t then. The extra-
o r d i n a r y thing was t h a t I saw t h e i r p o i n t of view, and
maybe t h a t has been p r e t t y important s i n c e , because t h e
experience of r e a l l y s e e i n g and b e l i e v i n g opposed p o i n t s
of view and f i n d i n g t h a t your mind changes and t h a t t h e r e ' s
something on each s i d e has had a very g r e a t d e a l t o do
wi'th my p h i l o s o p h i c a l development. So I was r z t h e r pro-
Germzn.
W
e g o t out i n t h r e e weeks. The mobilization was very
i n t e r e s t i n g . My, those German troops were b e a u t i f u l
troops, How they could march, and s i n g , e s p e c i a l l y t h e
b a t t a l i o n s of u n i v e r s i t y s t u d e n t s , my, they could sing!
I t wes a holiday. They were ready f o r this war, they took
p a i n s with i t , and t h i s w a s the time. It had come. I t
g o t s t a r t e d down t h e r e i n A u s t r i a , and t h i s was t h e time
t o h i t . They were going t o c l e a n up these Frenchmen i n a
very s h o r t time and we would have the Europe we should have.
With Germany i n charge, yes. They hadn't g o t t e n the
I
Pepper: H i t l e r i a n idea of the r a c i a l l y superior, blue-eyed Hun,
Teuton, but they f e l t themselves superior, a l l right.
And, you know, they a r e a wonderful l o t of men, they
a r e tremendous. The energy of those people! It's t h e i r
i s o c i a l organization t h a t gives you the j i m i e s . I think
they're very dangerous r i g h t now. I r e a l l y think Russia's
doing us a g r e a t favor i n keeping them divided, and
Adenauer may be j u s t waiting u n t i l he g e t s a good strong
army i n there and then h e ' l l play the East a g a i n s t the
West, the way they've been doing. I think they're very
dangerous now, and they're dangerous j u s t because they're
such wonderful people.
Well, s o we g o t out i n about three weeks and g o t t o
Amsterdam. I gave up the Berlin thing r i g h t off. Strangely
enough, I d i d n ' t need t o have because we d i d n ' t g e t i n t o
the war f o r another year and a half. Q u i t e a number of
Americans stayed on. I would have got plenty of a t t e n t i o n
there. Hovever, i t was a good choice because t h a t Harvard
degree vas worth j u s t any amount more than a German degree
from t h a t moment on. I n f a c t , I wasn't s u r e I was going
t o do i t anyhow, but I was going t o look i n t o i t , you see.
This s e t t l e d it.
So we g o t out t o Holland and had a r e a l l y n i c e three
weeks. I must say t h a t the three weeks i n Germany was a
l i t t l e nervous. we didn't q u i t e know what w a s happening.
And there were Englishmen i n the pension. A nice South
African I remember p a r t i c u l a r l y , fought i n the Boer War,
a f i n e fellow. He t r i e d t o convince the German authori-
ties -- they were coming i n regularly t o check up on our
passports -- t h a t he w a s not English. H
e was South Afri-
can and t h a t was n o t English. But he d i d n ' t seem t o make
much impression, and one night he disappeared -- not by
the Germans. He was making an attempt t o c r o s s the border
and we never knew what happened. O f course, i t ' s n o t
awfully far across, but the chances of g e t t i n g across must
have been p r e t t y precarious. He was the kind of fellow
who would do that. He had plenty of guts.
Riess: So you f e l t t h a t your time w a s running out?
Pepper: Well, we d i d n ' t f e e l too comfortable. W
e wore American
f l a g s s o as not be be mistaken f o r English. Everywhere we
walked we had a l i t t l e American f l a g i n our lapel. W
e
were t r e a t e d royally. They thought .the Americans were
wonderful, and t h a t we would never be s t u p i d l i k e the
English to back up these depraved Frenchmen. They were very
sweet t o us, but i t was a l i t t l e too much f o r us.
But we g o t out t o Holland and had a wonderful three
weeks there, very relaxed. There was no da.nger of Dutch
invasion because the armies had swept down through Belgium.
The Dutch f i l l e d up the dikes, they did a l l the preparatory
things they could do, and when we g o t t o the border there
was a r i v e r there, o r i t may have been a b i g dike. A t any
rate, i t was a long bridge. W
e went over i t with simply
steam -- a l l the ashes, a l l the f i r e , w a s taken out of
the engine. I t was very n i c e t o know t h a t we might be
blown up with a c i g a r e t t e thrown over o r something. A l l
the vindows alosed t i g h t . But once over we had a very
relaxed time i n Holland and i t was very nice.
Then we g o t onto a Dutch s h i p and I managed t o g e t
what was c a l l e d a first c l a s s room f o r my wife, but I had
t o go steerage. Well, steerage wasn't s o bad; i t w a s
simply the g r e a t hold, r i g h t where the propellers were,
and there was no air and they t a r r e d i t and fumigated i t
s o the smell was r e a l l y something. I ' d wake up i n the
morning with a very s t u f f y head.
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
Riess:
Pepper:
Were you allowed up t o first class?
Well, I went up t o first c l a s s t o see her and she would
even take things off the f i r s t c l a s s table. She was
s i t t i n g a t the captain's table, by some fluke, and next
t o her was a Bryn Mawr professor who thought he owned the
ship. ~ e ' d
been across 28, 30 times, 32 times, and he
knew j u s t how the s h i p was supposed t o be run. He reported
t o the captain t h a t Ellen was seeing me on the first c l a s s
deck and was passing food t o me, s o the captain stopped
Ellen one time and s a i d , " I ' m awfully s o r r y t o have t o
do this. Naturally I would prefer not to, It i s against
the r u l e s f o r steerage passengers t o come i n t o the f i r s t
c l a s s , and i f nothing had been s a i d about i t i t would have
been a l l r i g h t , but now it's been c a l l e d t o my attention.
I ' l l j u s t have t o say t h a t your husband can't come up.
You can go down t o see him." So we were very c a r e f u l f o r
a few days, and then I began t o sneak up again. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
But t h a t r e a l l y was a mean s t u n t of t h a t fellow.
W
e g o t across. It was a very i n t e r e s t i n g t r i p .
W
a
s i t people evacuating?
Yes. There were a l o t of Americans, of course, and a l o t
of Germans. I n f a c t , r e a l l y , I hadn't thought much about
that, but there were l o t s of Germans i n steerage with me.
Who didn't l i k e the war?
Goodness knows what was going on. That's interesting,
I've never thought.,. Of course, the next world war you
would have known they were people l i k e the Jews and others,
but at t h i s time Germany seemed t o be enthusiastic about
t h i s war. I don't remember i n Munich meeting anybody,
any German, t h a t didn't think t h i s was a very good thing.
This r e a l l y would consolidate Europe and be a g r e a t help
1j
1
Pepper: t o the world.
i Riess: Did you imagine t h a t once you g o t back t o America you would
i have t o f i g h t Germany?
f Pepper: I d i d n ' t dream. I d i d n ' t think we'd be i n a war, no. This
was a European war. You know, t h e r e ' s something t o be s a i d
f o r t h a t even now. There would be no Soviet Russia, you
know, i f they'd won. I f you think of might-have-beens...
Graduate Work at Harvard
Riess: You s t a r t e d work on your Ph.D. as soon as you came back
from Europe?
Pepper: Actually we didn't m i s s any time because t h a t occupied a
summer and I don't know t h a t I was even l a t e i n coming
back t o u n i v e r s i t y session. A s f a r as t h a t went, I g o t
m
y qegree, as I look back upon it, e a s i l y , i n two years.
It didn't seem easy a t the time.
Riess: I t seems very speedy, but then you weren't working, were
you, as many graduate students have to?
Pepper: Exactly. The l i t t l e allowance t h a t we had was s u f f i c i e n t
f o r us t o l i v e on, though I was an a s s i s t a n t under W i l l i a m
Hocking. The first readership I had was under B.A.G.
Fuller. He g o t permission t o get one of the graduate
students t o do i t and they talked t o me and he persuaded
me I could do it. I think I asked some others as t o
whether they thought 1 was competent. Of course, I was*
[~ a u ~ h
t e r ]
Riess: It wasn't usual t o have readers?
Pepper: Well, he d i d n ' t r a t e a reader f o r the c l a s s of about 35
t h a t he had. But he wanted one and the department was
very l i b e r a l i n t h a t kind of way. So they allowed him to
have a reader, a t h i s expense.
Pepper: F u l l e r was a very i n t e r e s t i n g character, a good scholar
dnd you might say a s a t e l l i t e of Santayana's, very much
under Santayana's influence. He wrote a h i s t o r y of philoso-
phy t h a t became one of the standard works. But he d i d n ' t
look l i k e a philosopher o r a teacher o r anything of the
kind. He rode t o the hounds, and he had h i s own horses --
t h a t was one of the things t h a t l e d t o h i s wanting a reader.
He wanted t o go out on a hunt and 'he didn't want t o have
any more paper work correcting t o do than necessary. They
( t h e Harvard department) a l l recognized h i s a b i l i t y but
they l e t him go f i n a l l y , and he became a professor a l l
the last years of h i s l i f e at U.S.C. which w a s a t t h a t
time a very Christian i n s t i t u t i o n . He was a n outspoken
a t h e i s t ; he was the d e v i l ' s advocate there. A very lovable
man. He had a n i c e house i n the h i l l s of Hollywood. He
l i v e d much as you would expect him t o l i v e , he c a r r i e d
h i s philosophy very, very l i g h t l y , s o you never would
r e a l i z e he w a s a very good scholar. He wore tweed coats,
much l i k e an English gentleman -- c e r t a i n kinds of New
England people do t h a t too -- but n o t l i k e the average
teacher o r businessman. He was an i n t e r e s t i n g character.
He was, as you can see, very much i n t e r e s t e d i n a t h l e t i c s ,
and a l l the crack f o o t b a l l players were i n h i s class.
Riesst 	 Because i t was an easy c l a s s ?
Pepper: 	 Yes, I think i t was a l i t t l e easy. I t wasn' t s o easy
though as one would think. They l i k e d him and I think
he f i x e d i t s o t h a t they were adequately tutored. Those
boys were bright, but I went i n there f e e l i n g t h a t f
should do something t o make i t more respectable. H i s
l e c t u r e s were nice, l i t e r a r y l e c t u r e s , n o t a t a l l the
pedantic thing, and I ' m a f r a i d I thought t h i s pedantic
s t u f f was r a t h e r highbrow, and proper. So he l e f t the
c l a s s one t i m e with m
e -- I guess he went away f o r a week
somewhere, r i d i n g the hounds i n Pennsylvania, o r something,
s o he turned i t over t o me. The class was on Descartes,
Spinoza, and Leibniz. I c a r e f u l l y developed a very s o l i d
couple of l e c t u r e s on whatever i t was at the time, I think
something i n Spinoza.
Well, those kids were not very much i n t e r e s t e d i n
t h i s s c h o l a r l y business, and I had m
y first problem of
d i s c i p l i n e because there began t o be some kind of scrapings
up i n the f r o n t . . I was r e a l l y troubled, but the way I
solved i t was t o g e t up from my s e a t with m
y notes i n m
y
hand and go stand r i g h t next t o t h i s f o o t b a l l fellow (he
was Hardwick, all-American end) who was scraping and,
t o m
y g r e a t amazement, i t quieted him. No more trouble.
But I d i d l e a r n something about trying t o l e c t u r e . For
one thing, I came t o admire what he was doing f o r these
kids. He r e a l l y was teaching them some good philosophy
in a way t h a t they could take it. I learned a l o t . H
e
was a good teacher.
Then I was a s e c t i o n man, a regular teaching a s s i s t a n t ,
f o r Hocking, f o r one o r two terms. So I did have some
more teaching. But i t was f o r the honor of the thing I
did t h i s , r a t h e r than the pay. There was an i n t e r e s t i n g
incident under the Hocking business. When was t h i s ?
Well, I must have been an a s s i s t a n t l a t e r because what
I was thinking about was a f t e r the war, during the Ver-
s a i l l e s discussions, s o I must have been an a s s i s t a n t
a f t e r I g o t my degree. After the war I came back t o
Hrirvard and was doing psychology work and I must have
been an a s s i s t a n t ther? then. That was an interim then,
when there were no p o s i t i o n s open f o r me.
This i s going ahead a b i t .
Pepper : I was f u l l of Woodrow Wilson idealism and saving the
world f o r democracy and I kind of thought we'd probably
saved i t , you see, before the period t h a t we discovered
we'd saved nothing. And I s a i d things t o t h a t e f f e c t i n
my class. I t must have been a course t h a t had e t h i c a l
overtones. One of the boys i n there, a very b r i g h t ,
clean type, asked m
e i f I'd come t o lunch at h i s parent's
house. So I went i n t o one of the b i g back Bay houses and
they had me t o lunch and i n the course of the lunch i t was
s a i d t h a t h i s f a t h e r had been one of the delegates t o
V e r s a i l l t ~ s ,some lower o f f i c i a l capacity, and he had
been p e r f e c t l y disgusted at the way Clemenceau and Lloyd
George were hoodwinking Woodrow Wilson and he was informing
me -- and very t a c t f u l l y i t was done, s o t h a t I would be
a l i t t l e more q u a l i f i e d i n my enthusiasm f o r what was
going on there -- t h a t t h i s wasn't going well at a l l ,
t h a t i t looked very, very bad. I s n ' t t h a t i n t e r e s t i n g ?
They wanted t o help the young i n s t r u c t o r there, you see.
Well, t o go back. I came back from our t r i p and g o t
my degree. And then came the problem -- we were i n war,
you see -- of e n l i s t i n g , As I said, I and t h i s Alfred
Hedfield were the only married graduate students a t
Harvard, and I had two chilcren. This w a s 1918. As
long as i t was t o g e t my degree, t h a t made a p e r f e c t l y
good reason t o s t a y a t Harvard, but now I had m
y degree.
Well, I was writing the a e s t h e t i c s book t h a t was
going t o be the a e s t h e t i c s book f o r a l l time up t o then,
and t h a t seemed t o me an awfully important thing t o be
doing,
And during t h i s i n t e r v a l a young i n s t r u c t o r a t
Wellesley had volunteered and Mary Calkins, a n eminent
philosopher a t the time, asked Harvard whom she could
1
i
Pepperr 	 g e t and they recommended me, and s o I went over and taught
a psychology course and a s s i s t e d her i n her philosophy
I
i	 course. I was teaching a t Wellesley i n the f a l l of 1917
and the s p r i n g of 1918. I h3d gotten m
y degree i n the
'
spring of 1916. It was kind of a half-time job. I
-d go
over three 	times a week i n an open T-model Ford. It
happened t o be .3ne of the most icy, s l e e t y winters and
i t was before they had these cushioned t i r e s t h a t w
e now
have. I ' d 	t r i e d chains and found they were worse than
nothing. Oh, i t r e a l l y was a t r i p over there, and 1 ' d
be wrapped up l i k e an Eskimo t o g e t over. It was a tough
winter and 	I c e r t a i n l y earned what l i t t l e I g o t from this.
A t l e a s t , though, i t was a r e a l teaching job.
Riess: 	 Had psychology been your minor subject?
Pepper: 	 It r e a l l y wasn't minor because a t t h a t time every philos-
opher lectrned psychology. W
e had a psychology exam as
one of the Ph.D. qualifying exams. The change happened
immediately a f t e r t h a t and a l l of m
y group had t o make a
decision of whether they'd go i n t o psychology o r philoso-
phy,. It was i n the twenties t h a t the departments s p l i t
almost everywhere i n the country. But I ' d deaided t o go
i n t o philosophy.
Riess: 	 What became of the book, incidentally?
Pepper: 	 This book went on. I t was a three o r four year a f f a i r
and was q u i t e a volume. I s e n t i t i n , two o r three years
l a t e r , t o a f r i e n d i n the Yale press, Rollins, I believe,
somebody t h a t I knew and I knew would be as favorable as
anybody was l i k e l y t o be t o i t , and he read i t over and
had a reader on i t a n d s a i d , "It has good substance but
nobody seems t o g e t excited about it. Looking back
and rereading i t , I can s e e why they d i d n ' t g e t awfully
excited about it.
i
!
i
f
Pepper: It has good substance, What t h a t book was was t h e
basis of m
y a e s t h e t i c s course t h a t I taught a l l the years
I was here i n C a l i f o r n i a , a n e m p i r i c a l course i n aesthe-
1 t i c s which became s o r t of course and was very, very
i s u c c e s s f u l as a course. It covered the whole range o f t h e
1
1 arts, the v i s u a l arts and l i t e r a t u r e and music, and i t
I
1
was a very good course of the kind t h a t is n o t l i k e l y t o
be given now, It's r e a l l y a l o s s , I think, t h a t t h i s
kind of course i s n l t given. It was comparative arts,
r e a l l y .
Riess: A e s t h e t i c s courses a r e now more s p e c i a l i z e d , a e s t h e t i c s
of t h i s or t h a t ?
Pepper: No, i t ' s t h a t e m p i r i c a l a e s t h e t i c s is n o t taught very much
i n philosophy depa.rtments. I n f z c t , n e i t h e r was i t then,
t though I t h i n k q u i t e a n ~ m b e ro f my s t u d e n t s went on
teaching it. And the v i s u a l s i d e of t h a t course i s now
being taught by Glenn Vessels up i n t h e a r t department.
Riess: But t h e r e i s n ' t an a e s t h e t i c s course t h a t a r t majors are
r e q u i r e d t o take i n the philosophy d e p a r t ~ e n t ?
Pepper: I ' m a f r a i d the art department stopped r e q u i r i n g i t when I
was no longer chairman. And, i n f a c t , i t w a s n o t a
s t r a i g h t requirement b u t a very s t r o n g recommendation.
When I was chairman I hesita.ted t o make i t a requirement,
b u t n e a r l y a l l the art s t u d e n t s took it. It's a course
now very a b l y given by a man who, by the way, g o t t h e
honor of the 'lbest teacher" business, you know, l a s t year
-- a s s i s t a n t p r o f e s s o r s u p e r l a t i v e teaching honor --
S t a n l e y Cavell. He teaches i t as a course i n a e s t h e t i c
ideas and i n t h e a n a l y s i s of a e s t h e t i c concepts, t h a t
s o r t of thing, That doesn't sound very e x c i t i n g , b u t it
can be, and i,t has a l o t t o do with c r i t i c i s m . It's a
v e r y good way, of t h e many ways of doing a e s t h e t i c s . But
i Pepper: 	 mine was a s t r a i g h t empirical course on the material t h a t
goes i n t o the works of art, t h e i r s t r u c t u r e and t h e i r form,
t h i s s o r t of thing, and i t w a s a good kind of course, And
I think something is l o s t i n its not being given any more.
W
a
s i t a r a r e combination of t r a i n i n g t h a t you had t h a t
allowed you t o do t h i s , and not others?
Oh, Cave11 could do it, H i s background i s j u s t as good as
mine, but of another kind. I was strong i n v i s u a l arts
and had t o kind of work up music, but he is musically
trained and i n f a c t he was a major i n music and did graduate
work i n i t , a f i r s t - r a t e pianist. So h i s music is very
strong and h e ' s worked up a very f i n e background i n the
v i s u a l arts. L i t e r a t u r e is something t h a t any c u l t i v a t e d
man knows anyway.
Well, the v i s u a l p a r t of the m a t e r i a l i n t h a t book
came out as The P r i n c i p l e s of A r t Appreciation, many years
l a t e r ,
Modern Color you had done i n 1919. [ ~ o d e r nColor by Carl
Gordon Cutler and Stephen C, Pepper. Cambridge: Harvard
University Press 1923.1
That's another story, That's not r e a l l y mine, It's r e a l l y
Cutler's material. I j u s t wrote it. Cutler was n o t
i n t e r e s t e d i n writing, couldnt t, I guess. M
y f a t h e r
suggested t h a t I write i t , and they g o t i t published by
the Harvard Press, very b e a u t i f u l l y g o t t e n out with two
of the very f i n e s t p r i n t i n g designers, and i t ' s now a
c o l l e c t o r ' s iuem, a very b e a u t i f u l book. I think they have
a copy here i n the Library; I only have one myself, and I
c a n ' t even give t h a t t o the two girls. It':; a b e a u t i f u l l y
got-out book, but I c a n ' t take any of the c r e d i t f o r i t
except that' I d i d the writing. I used t o go up i n t o the
Pepper:
Pepper:
75
s t u d i o and he would t a l k and I ' d take notes and I ' d w r i t e
up the material and he'd c o r r e c t i t , s o t h e book was
composed. I lzarned a l o t about a c e r t a i n type of
painting t h a t way.
World W
a
r I - Officer of the Day
I g o t my degrr-:e i n 1916. The war was on very soon. A l l
of my f r i e n d s were 'in the army o r navy, a l l volunteers.
And now what about me? I had two kids, yes, but m
y wife
could g e t on. A f t e r a l l , I wasn't earning enough t o support
the family. W
e were l i v i n g on the allowance mainly. And
there'd be a l i t t l e money coming from an o f f i c e r i n the
army anyhow. Well, it was a very miserable time, and I
wasn't working very e f f i c i e n t l y under t h i s s t r a i n of
decision. I wobbled back and f o r t h . The family kept
very much out of it. M
y mother, of course, didn't want
me t o go. M
y f a t h e r wouldn't say much of anything, but
I guess he thousht I had plenty of good excuses not t o go.
One of h i s g r e a t e s t f r i e n d s , a doctor, s a i d by a l l means
don1t go, you have p l e n t y of d u t i e s here. But on the other
hand, m
y wife's uncle, who was a very i n f l u e n t i a l man
and who I admired a good deal, s a i d , " ~ b s o ' i u t e l ~ ,
any
red-blooded man must g o o w So I r e a l l y was i n a f i x .
W
e were down on the Cape f o r a week o r s o i n June
1918 when a telegram came through from the man t h a t I ' d
done m
y t h e s i s under and I most admire, now and a t t h a t
time, Ralph Barton Perry, who was then the head of the
S.A.T.C., the s t u d e n t s army t r a i n i n g corps, i n Washington,
and he needed a man as a kind of p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r y and
knew I was a v a i l a b l e , i n the summer anyway, s o he wired
up i f I ' d come down. Well, what about t h a t very important
:
?
Pepper:
f
I
I
: Riessr
: Peppert
I
1
i
I Riess:
!
I
Pe .-per:
book t h a t was going t o revolutionize a e s t h e t i c s ? [I,aughing]
That seemed t o be unimportant a t t h a t mnment, s o I accepted
the position and went down there i n the middle of the summer.
This was a c i v i l i a n position?
Yes, and t h a t o f f i c e w a s j u s t f u l l of young men o f my age,
and here I w a s , p e r f e c t l y sound and husky -- oh, I was
uncomfortable. To make a long s t o r y s h o r t , I f i n a l l y
volunteered, j u s t a t the time, however, t h a t the d r a f t
came on. And the d r a f t came on t o i n t e r f e r e with t h e
volunteering t h a t I ' d done, s o t h a t caused some more delay
g e t t i n g me c l e a r of the d r a f t s o I could g e t i n on my
volunteer set-up. Oh, and I had t h e beginning of varicose
veins, a t t h a t time, and they were f o r keeping me out.
Well, by t h a t time I was bound I ' d g e t in.
And how long did you think the war was going t o last, anyway?
Yes, we thought the war was going on. If I had thought i t
was going t o s t o p soon I wouldn't have been worried. Noi
t h i s looked l i k e a long pull. No p a r t i c u l a r g a i n s had been
I made by e i t h e r side. They pushed f i v e or ten miles one way
and the enemy would push back. W
e couldn't s e e the end;
i t looked l i k e years.
Well, they cleared me f o r the heavy a r t i l l e r y . I
don't know why they thought I should be i n heavy a r t i l l e r y ,
but being a Ph.D. from Harvard I guess they thought I had
the r e q u i s i t e knowledge, but I d i d n ' t know much mathematics;
I ' d gone through trigonometry and s o on, but no f a r t h e r ,
but t h a t seemed t o be enough. So I went down and reported
t o Fort Warren i n Boston Harbor and s t a r t e d out rookie
t r a i n i n g there -- shoveled coal, tended the o f f i c e r ' s
garden, cared f o r tomatoes, things l i k e that. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And I kept guard with a loaded r i f l e on the shoulder.
T h a t , by the way, is the nearest I ever came to shooting,
Pepper:
: 1 '
Ii
,
I1
1
I
I
when I had that loaded r i f l e on m
y shoulder. And the l i t t l e
g u l l s out there looked l i k e awfully nice shots!
/ Then one morning they called me off duty, wherever I
was, probably fixing the o f f i c e r ' s tomatoes, and sent me
up f o r an examination. That was it! That was the exam,
Meantime I ' d been boning up on t h i s trig t h a t I hadn't
studied since I was a freshman i n college. Evidently I
passed i t because the next thing I knew I w a s ordered out,
and t h a t was within ten days. I hadn't even got m
y clothes
packed by t h a t time, and by the way, they never did g e t
packed. Somebody got a nice suitcase! [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And

there I w
a
s shipped off -- not even seeing m
y family --

down t o Fortress Monroe i n Norfolk, Virginia, and I went 

i n t o t r a i n i n g f o r a heavy a r t i l l e r y o f f i c e r , and I never 

. worked so hard in m
y l i f e . I never was a b l e t o g e t completely
through with m
y assignments. Then there were the d r i l l s !
In the midst of it t h i s was the time the big f l u
epidemic came over. I g o t f l u and they put me i n the
h o s p i t a l there. If you didn't have f l u before, you'd
have i t i n t h a t hospital: the equipment was not proper,
they had to heat the water separately -- these temporary
camps were a l l j u s t thrown up. M
y fever ran way up. I
remember a nurse coming on and taking m
y temperature and
saying, "Well, what i n the world a r e you doing with a
temperature l i k e this?" And meantime boys were dying up
at the upper end of the room, shrieking and s o on. I t was
q u i t e an experience. They had t o wash things i n cold
water quite often, What could they do? That's a l l they had.
But somehow o r other I came through it, came out,
and I was p r e t t y weak f o r two o r three days, and the
o f f i c e r said, "You'd b e t t e r just rest.'' And I boned up
on what I was supposed t o have 10s
t. I wasn' t even able
t o keep up on the d r i l l business. And t h a t ' s j u s t s t r a i g h t
Pepper: memorizing, yo\ how,
There was a n i c e bunch of boys there, p r e t t y bright
boys. They were selected, a l l r i g h t , and one of these
boys, who'd had a c e r t a i n amount of human experience, and
some i n the army, happened t o say t o me something -- nIf
you ever g e t caught on a command t h a t is not the c o r r e c t
command, don't t r y t o change it. J u s t l e t i t go." You
know, t h a t was r e a l l y a f i n e piece of advice because I ' d
hardly g o t my f e e t s o that I w a s out mtdrching with t h e
boys a t the d r i l l s when I was made the o f f i c e r of the
company. Now, I was t o t a l l y unprepared f o r t h i s . I knew
the simple orders --
Riess: You mean they picked a man each day?
Peppert They would pick two o r three men a day. There were about
a hundred of us. You would usually a t the most have only
two chances at this. The time w a s g e t t i n g on, and here
was mine.
I was r e a l l y scared t o death, but I went out, and I
w i l l never f o r g e t the order t h a t I gave. Oh, I gave a
number of simple orders and marched them around. But
there was an order, "Oh, Front, I n t o Line!" (There's no
such order now because the whole thing's changed. ) Now,
with e i g h t i n a squad they'd be marching i n a company of
four. The e f f e c t of t h i s order on t h e company of f o u r
formation was t o turn the whole company i n such a way
t h a t they were two t h i c k the whole company long. And i t
was q u i t e a manoeuvre t o swing t h i s whole company around,
and you were marching a l l the time so t h a t each squad w a s
on i t s own when i t happened, and each squad leader w a s
t o bring h i s squad up i n t o the proper place. I ' d been
doing t h a t s e v e r a l times and I knew how t o do i t i n
Pepper: 	 company, and I knew the order, and I think I thought, "This
w i l l give me a l i t t l e time t o think because i t w i l l take
a l i t t l e while t o do this." d
Now, before 1 gave the order I looked across the
f i e l d and i t was perfectly empty. So I gave the order
and they s t a r t e d moving -- i t takes quite a while, making
t h i s manoeuvre, t o turn at r i g h t angles and g e t the men
i n l i n e -- and out through the woods, an eighth of a
mile away across the f i e l d , there came another company
which w a s i n l i n e l i k e mine! [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Well, I saw
what w
a
s going to happen. But fortunately I remembered
what t h i s fellow said. "Don't do a thing i f you've done
Something t h a t is wrong; leave i t alone.n
So I left i t alone and i t w a s up t o these fellows
t o g e t through. The two companies clashed i n t o each
other and they went through each other and f i n a l l y came
out the other side. I called mine t o a h a l t a t the
further edge of the woods. I don't know why I didn't
l e t them go j u s t a l i t t l e b i t f u r t h e r , but t h i s was the
first time t h a t they gave signs of being a r e a l line. So
I called, "Halt!" And there they were, but there was a
t r e e i n the midst of the line. So I figured t h a t they
would a l l be i n l i n e , with no t r e e s i n the way, i f they
would just s t e p back about three steps and so make a
nice, clean line.
Now, the colonel was a nice, kindly fellow, and the
lieutenant was a young fellow j u s t out of West Point,
and apparently they thought I ' d shown g r e a t resourceful-
ness i n l e t t i n g t h i s go as i t had gone. I guess they
saw t h a t I saw the f i e l d seemed t o be c l e a r when I gave
the order. So I was r i d i n g f i n e a t the moment when the
Pepper: 	 l i e u t e n a n t , out of the kindness of h i s h e a r t , came and
w ~ i s p e r e di n m
y e a r the order t o give, but I had i t s o
strongly i n mind t h a t two o r three s t e p s would g e t them
out of trouble I y e l l e d , "Company, ~ a c k s t e ~ j
t h a t ",and
by g o l l y , the oonpany backsteppedl There is no such order.
But they had backstepped nicely.
Oh, but look what I had donel I had gone a g a i n s t
the order t h a t my superior o f f i c e r had given me; not
only had I done t h a t , but I had given anotherorder; and
l a s t l y , there was no such order. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
The l i e u t e n a n t c a l l e d me up i n f r o n t , and then he
j u s t ripped out at the company, at those squad leaders,
how badly they had done i n g e t t i n g t h e i r men i n t o order.
A l l the way a c r o s s the f i e l d t o the other s i d e , the woods,
w a s where we were before they were straightened out. They
were a t e r r i b l e bunch. Then he s a i d , "And what do you
meanby obeying a n order t h a t doesn't e x i s t ? n And he ripped
i n t o them f o r that. And then he turned t o me and you can
t imagine what I got. Really, I was completely dumb by the
time they g o t through with me and I thought I ' d be going
back t o the i n f a n t r y a l l r i g h t .
Well, the colonel w a s a n i c e fellow and he could s e e
t h a t I ' d r e a l l y had a time of i t . He ordered me back t o
the l i n e . I went back t o m
y coEpany and he went on. But
they d i d n ' t penalize me f o r i t ! Somehow o r o t h e r i t made
me kind of proud of the American ariny. I f j u s t shows
what t h e American army could do under a c e r t a i n kind of
s t r e s s . I n the German army i t would be far d i f f e r e n t , and
I wouldn't have been obeyed. And a l s o t h e i r tolerance
with me -- I j u s t can imagine what would have happened
t o me i n the German arny. It was a very intelligently-run
Pepper: business a l l together. And I guess they realized too
that I was j u s t out of s i c k bay. A l l that. But t h a t
e r r o r was r e a l l y one of the proud moments of m
y l i f e !
The war stopped while we were i n training. That
was a very strange thing because we a l l were just aching
to g e t across by that time. What i t does t o your s t a t e
of mind i s j u s t something astonishing. I was a member
of the army and I wanted to g e t a t those Germans. I
wanted t o be over there and i n the thick of the fight.
So it w a s a kind of tragedy t o us. A l l the nation was
jubilant and people coming through i n automobiles with
banners f l y i n g were expecting to see a jubilant bunch
of r e c r u i t s , but not at a l l . W
e were blue a s could be.
I remember one of the officers talking t o the assembled
companies -- there must have been eight or ten heavy
a r t i l l e r y companLes there -- saying t h a t we must take i t
as you would on a losing f o o t b a l l team, be good sports.
Having won the war w
e couldn't win, s o t o speak. J u s t
take i t .
Pepper:
I
Riess:
Pepper:
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA - 1919
Job Offers
So the war ended and I came home. Then i t was t h a t I was
looking around f o r a job. It was the end of 1918.
College had t h e o r e t i c a l l y begun. I inquired i f there was
any chance f o r me a t Wellesley but Miss Calkins was r e a l l y
kind of angry with me. A p a c i f i s t , she thought the whole
war was a mistake and she did her b e s t t o keep m
e from
g e t t i n g in. When I f i n a l l y did she was bothered. So
there was nothing doing there. Besides, the psychology
i n s t r u c t o r would soon be back.
I got some teaching i n l o g i c and psychology at what
now is Northeastern University i n Boston. It was the
Y.M.C.A. 's; they were j u s t beginning there. Now it's
become q u i t e a college. I taught there and I was waiting
.
f o r a job. 

Had you applied t o u n i v e r s i t i e s around the country? 

The departaent took care of t h a t , the way we do i t here. 

When you've got a man with a Ph.D. you t r y t o place him. 

There were a number of us i n the same boat because there 

were no openings anywhere. The u n i v e r s i t i e s were a l l 

playing very safe; they d i d n ' t know what was going t o 

happen next. It was t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t from the end of 

the next war when a l l s o r t s of arrangements were made. 

They had no experience about t h i s and were playing very 

s a f e , 

The only b i t e t h a t I had -- a p r e t t y s t r o n g one --
was from Carey Thomas, the president of Bryn Mawr. She
1
I Pepper: was very much of a character and made a f i n e president there.
I Well, I happened t o be i n good f e a t h e r when she had a
I
conference with me, and she was a l l f o r me and s a i d I had
t o come down t o see the department. (There was a husband
and a wife there, the deLagunas. She r race] was b e t t e r
than he was, though he had the higher rank, That wasn't
supposed t o be said out loud, but the whole philosophy
world knew it. They were both good, but she w a s d e f i n i t e l y
b e t t e r . ) Well, the president gave me very sound advice.
She s a i d , ?IDon1t come dogn on the night t r a i n . Come down
the day before s o t h a t y o u ' l l be ~ e r f e c t l y
rested,"
But money meant a good d e a l t o m
e then and I had
another funny idea, t h a t you mustn't appear too well off,
s o I d i d n ' t wear m
y best s u i t . " T h i s young whippersnapper
from Harvard and probably Middlesex o r something, you
know.?' I d i d n ' t want t o give an impression like t h a t I
So I went down r a t h e r shabbily, without having s l e p t very
well on the t r a i n -- I s l e e p a l l r i g h t on sleepers, but
not the f i r s t night. So I was not i n good feather. And
then I had another very funny notion, and t h a t is t h a t
you must be pleasant with people who a r e going t o employ
you. So they did t h e i r darndest to stir me up and g e t
me arguing, and I thought they had some of the damndest
f o o l questions t o ask, and I dodged them as p o l i t e l y as
I could. And the r e s u l t of a l l t h i s was t h a t I made a
very poor impression. A s I look back I can see. So I
d i d n ' t g e t t h a t job, Fortunately I d i d n ' t , because I
wouldn't be here now i f I had.
But i t was kind of desperate. 

Riess: You r e a l l y needed money. Your allowance was no longer 

enough? 

Pepper: I n f l a t i o n was becoming hard at t h a t time and we were 

.
.
.


!
( :- ,
j Pepper: trapped because we couldn't l i v e on the allowance the
folks had given u s which, we thought, was a generous one.
And we didn't want t o l e t them know because we knew they'd
give us more, and that -- well, we just were not brought
1
up t h a t way.
So I wrote out t o the University of California and I
wrote to the University of Washington. Jbck Loewenberg
had gotten a degree a couple of years before m
e and he
had been m
y reader i n Royce's course, so I had t h a t contact
out here, and my uncle was graduate dean at the U n i v e r ~ i t y
of Washington, so I wrote t o him. I s a i d t o both of them
1 t h a t I would take anything a t all. Harvard, you see, was
looking f o r a r e a l job f o r me, a n instructorship, a
n
a s s i s t a n t professorship o r something. T h i s t h a t I was
asking f o r was anything. I t o l d them I thought I could
te-ich English or psychology, anything i n psychology,
philosophy, and I thought I could do T.A. work i n a l l i e d
subjects, that I ' d had a good deal of the s o c i a l sciences.
I got a l e t t e r r i g h t back from my uncle saying he
I
advised me not t o come t o the University of Washington
because he thought there would be an instructorship
opening the year following and he thought it would
jeopardize my s a l a r y i f I was there as a T.A., b e t t e r t o
come as an instructor.
Well, I was wondering j u s t what we would do, because
w
e just hid t o g e t out.
Riess: Did you h ~ v e
a house i n Concord, and hired help?
Pepper: Oh, we were renting. And the help was f i v e d o l l a r s a week,
t h a t was all. And not t o have had i t would have been
living~below-- t h a t would have been at once noticeable
t o the town and t o the family.
a Peppert
1
i
!
Riess:
Pepper:
I

But l e t m
e say there was an excitement and a t h r i l l
about this. It was the good, old-fashioned way that New
Englanders were pushed out i n t o the West. Here we were,
W
e were lcoking forward to i t i n a way, even though we
didn't know what was going t o happen. But we would have
gone, even i f w
e had nothing, somewhzre.
Well, just at the last moment I had a l e t t e r from
Jack Loewenberg saying that they would o f f e r m
e an
assistantship here f o r $600 a year, which we accepted with
glee. That's how w
e arrived here i n California i n t h e
f a l l of 1919.
The idea of coming t o California was a t t r a c t i v e ?
Oh, we were ready to go anywhere. This was fine, t h i s was
good. We could l i v e low, you see, which we certainly did.
And nobody could see how we were living, none of our
parents could. I t was rdther d i f f i c u l t g e t t i n g a house
here, as a matter of fact. Some friends of ours here
found a l i t t l e place, a l i t t l e r e a r house, on Carlton
S t r e e t , f o r which we paid $25 a month. It consisted of
a kitchen and three l i t t l e rooms, about twice the s i z e
of t h i s office altogether. W
e had no furniture. W
e
bought a spring. I think we brought out with us a
collapsible c r i b f o r the baby. She was still very young
then. And we got a few second-hand chairs. I put the
spring on four pieces of vood, the way you do it. And
we were very happy, and living inside our income.
Well, i t happened t o be a very, very favorable time
t o come here because C.I. Lewis -- a young member of the
department at t h a t time, he had just finished h i s first
book on logic, which was a very good one, and he became
one of the great American philosophers -- w a s called t o
i
Pepper:
I
I
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
I
I
1
Harvard as a v i s i t i n g professor. They were trying him out.
And the professor of a e s t h e t i c s , Artkur Upham Pope, a man
with many s i d e s to him, he l e f t . He became t h e head of
t h e Asiatic I n s t i t u t e i n New York i n 1930. (Here was
a n ~ t h e rone of those cases; h i s wife, P h y l l i s Ackerman,
was i n a wag, a b l e r than h e was, she was the r e a l scholar,
but he hzd the dynamics, he was a very f i n e l e c t u r e r , but
not r e l i a b l e . He could throw together a l e c t u r e very
e a s i l y , so i t worked fine f o r her t o g e t the material and
him to d e l i v e r i t , w!~ich i s s o r t of the way i t was. And
then there was a scandal because she had been a pupil of
h i s and he had divorced h i s wife t o marry her. So i t w a s
adviszble f o r him t o leave, a l l of which happened i n 1917,
just before I came. ) So there was a clean opening i n
a e s t h e t i c s , and t h a t was very v i s i b l e t o me. And i t was
mzde very p l a i n t h a t they had no intention' whatever of
replacing anybody i n a e s t h e t i c s , they didn't vant me t o
have any ideas! But i t was a pleasant year and an easy
one. I a s s i s t e d kdams i n h i s e t h i c s c m r s e , t h a t ' s a l l I
did a t t h a t time, and I went on with t h i s book I t o l d you
about.
You hadn't been given any promises f o r the next year?
Oh, no.
Did you want t o s e t t l e here?
W
e had no idea, but we weren't counting on anything. In
f a c t , w
e were going t o go on f u r t h e r , see what we could
do i n Honolulu, maybe g e t connected w i t h some college i n
China. That's the way our thoughts were going. W
e were
r e a l l y romsntic. This [ ~ a l i f o r n i a ]was not f o r permanency.
And i n c i d e n t a l l y , we d i d n ' t think of California as a place
t o be permanently i n even ~ f t e r
I did g e t a job here f o r
q u i t e a while. In the f i r s t place, the East didn't know
Pepper: 	 much about the University of California, though i t was
much b e t t e r than i t was known t o be i n the East. Y e t i t
was not q u i t e f i r s t - r a t e i n those days. It was a good
second-rate college. But i t grew very, very f a a t i n
pobler, I saw i t i n my young years, and by the time I
g o t the r e a l l y tempting c a l l from the East, I d i d n ' t
want t o go.
I would have gone t o Harvard, up t o a c e r t a i n point,
and was t e r r i f i c a l l y disappointed f o r a time i n that.
There was a r e a l r i v a l r y between .me and P r a l l on t h a t
score. Ue were both here. David P r a l l came i n t o the
department somewhat l a t e r , a very able man, a l s o i n
a e s t h e t i c s , and Harvard needed a e s t h e t i c i a n s badly. We
were very s t r o n g i n a e s t h e t i c s , always have been here, so
i t looked probable t h a t e i t h e r he or I would be thought
of st Harvard. This was about 1927 o r 1928. Well, I had
an o f f e r t o go t o Dartmouth, which was the b e s t o f f e r
I ' d had yet. I ' d had o f f e r s from smaller ones -- Brown
-- which I'd turned down, but here was Dartmouth, a good
o f f e r b u t an undergraduate college. With t h i s up my
sleeve I thought i t w a s the occasion t o s e e what Harvard
was thinking, s o I c a l l e d up C.I. Levis who by t h a t time
was well established a t Harvard, and I m k e d him what the
s i t u a t i o n was and he w a s , I think, a l i t t l e cruel. H
e
l e t me know i n no uncertain terms t h a t i t was n o t I, it
was P r a l l , who was going t o be called. I was p r e t t y
h u r t f o r a while. Not but what I thought P r a l l was
swell, but i t was q u i t e a shock t o know I was clean o u t
l i k e .that. They c a l l e d P r a l l the next year.
Ijy the time they r e a l l y c a l l e d m e , which w a s about
Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

ten y e a r s l a t e r , t h i s department was b e t t e r than Harvard's,
and there were a l s o some family complications which
counted some too, but the r e a l point was t h a t we'd g o t t e n
r e a l l y established here and t h i s was a b e t t e r department,
I was working w e l l here, and s o I turned them down.
Tney chose P r a l l because of more publications, o r what?
It was t h a t , and he was older, too, I think i n tkeir snoes
I would have done the same. W
e must have been p r e t t y c l o s e
because they had me down t o the department while I was
East with my family, they had m
e t o lunches and dinners,
and they looked me over p r e t t y carefully. And I must
s a y t h a t I was not, i n terms of confidence and a b i l i t y ,
q u i t e a p a r t from achievement, n o t the man I was about ten
years l a t e r . And P r a l l was about t e n years older than I
was. They did the r i g h t thing f o r Harvard. They had no
idea t h a t they couldn't get anybody anytime they wanted.
So far as I know the first nian they r e a l l y wanted and
d i d n ' t get was Edward Tolman, a great f r i e n d of mine here
who was asked t o go there about*two years before I was
and turned i t down, f o r similar reasons. T h i s was now a
f i r s t - r a t e university. When I came out i t was good, but
i t was only about vhat Wisconsin is now, t h a t kind of a
place.
Wh~&t
did you expect of Eerkeley when you came out here?
I t e l l you, I expected i t t o be -- l i k e many of the
easterners -- a good d e a l l i k e the Hawaiian Islands.
These Bay cities would be siting on the beaches by palm
shores and w
e would go out i n n i c e w a r m water [laughing]
and bathe. Oh, I was thoroughly d i s a ~ p o i n t e d . And w
e
thought t h a t the h i l l s would be green and luxuriant, and
w
e found them brown. Well, i t took us about a year t o
Pepper: 	 g e t adapted t o what we didn't expect.
Riess: 	 And who did you know out here?
Pepper: Nobody but Loewenberg.
And I d i d n ' t know him r e a l l y , but Austin Wright, who
was i n the Law School, was the brother of one of my
multiple senior roommates a t t h a t entry, Jack Wright, who
was the e a r l i e s t man of our crowd t o make some kind of a
name f o r himself. He was taken i n almost at once as t h e
head geographer of the Aaerican Geographical soci;ty i n
New York. Austin was h i s brother, and it was through
them t h a t we g o t the l i t t l e house a t 2234 Carlton S t r e e t .
Did I t e l l you t h a t we ran out of money when w
e g o t
here? W
e were too proud t o telegraph back f o r i t o r any-
thing l i k e that. So I put my pride i n my pocket and went
t o t h i s Austin and asked i f I could borrow $50. "Why, w
he said, "you've g o t a couple o f months' s a l a r y waiting
f o r you." Well, what would be one-twelfth of 8600?
Enough t o g e t us out o f trouble.
Riess: ' 	 You were twenty-eight when you arrived. I wondered i f
your f i r s t f r i e n d s were among tile graduate students,
r a t h e r than faculty?
Pepper: 	 Yes, my friends were a t least h a l f students. They t o l d
m
e things t h a t they wouldn't t e l l older men. That went
on f o r q u i t e a while and i t r e a l l y was a disappointment
t o me when somewhere i n the f o r t i e s I was no longer a
member of the student body; 1 began t o be a f a t h e r type,
I g o t used t o t h a t and t h a t has i t s conpensations too,
but I l o s t sonething. Why, they would t e l l me a l l the
kinds of things t h a t we! e going on, very d i f f e r e n t from
the kinds of things t h a t bent on i n my college days i n
New England. I t wa.s much f r e e r here, i n sex ways and so
pepper: on, And t h a t was q u i t e a r e v e l a t i o n t o me. On t h e whole
I thought i t was b e t t e r . The East now is about the way t h e
West was then, s o far as I can gather; t h i n g s have opened
up a l o t . But i t was a shock, even though a f t e r thinking
about i t a l o t I thought i t was b e t t e r .
Honor Systern
Pepper: Another t h i n g t h a t I ' v e never q u i t e g o t t e n over y e t is t h a t
they took cheating here n o t very s e r i o u s l y , whereas with
my bringing up t h a t was t h e next thing t o s t e a l i n g . There
was an honor system h e r e and i t wasn't working a t all.
These boys would t e l l me a l l about it.
Riess: Even the g u i l t y ones?
Pepper: No, but I found t h a t even the non-guilty ones d i d n ' t f e e l
the same way about i t t h a t I did. But they d i d n ' t l i k e it.
It was on t h e rampage. On t h e honor system a p r o c t o r is n o t
susposed t o be present, you see. And y e t t h e s t u d e n t s would
' n o t report. They had the n o t i o n t h a t i t w a s " t e l l i n g t a l e s "
t o report. The honor system only works when they don't
have t h a t f e e l i n g , when everybody f e e l s the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
f o r keeping t h e honor and they do r e p o r t . Even though they
can choose who they r e p o r t to, i t should be reported. But
they didn't.
Riess: It's s i n c e disappeared from the system here, h a s n ' t i t ?
Pepper: 0
1
1
, yes, and t h i s is where I made my f i r s t public appearance.
I had a kind of influence i n t h a t . This is where New England
comes t o the West, you see. I was an a s s i s t a n t professor
and i t ,must have been about 1925 o r 1926 when t h e first
faculty-student committee on the honor system took place.
Pepper: 	 The question came up somehow o r other i n the Academic
Senate. (The senate was not awfully big i n those days.
They'd p r e t t y well f i l l 312 i n Wheeler H a l l , which would
be about 150 men.) There were some wonderings about i t
and some talk. The older men, who j u s t didn't know what
was going on, were saying some things t o the e f f e c t t h a t
i t seemed t o be working a l l r i g h t . I t got t o be more
than I could take, and f e e l i n g the way I did about i t 1
must have made a very e f f e c t i v e speech, because i t
immediately changed the whole set-up. I s a i d , "I know
students." They were t e l l i n g me these things, And I
s a i d i f they could g e t the confidence of the students
they wmld l e a r n a l o t , So they i n s t i t u t e d a committee
a n d they put me on the committee, of course. That's what
happene when you r a i s e a'question,
Well, you couldn't get a thing f r o m the students f o r
a long time. I think we must have had about three o r
four meetings, meeting about every two beeks o r so. And
then they g o t convinced t h a t we were honest about t h i s
and t h a t we d i d n ' t f e e l t h a t i t w a s a t e r r i b l e disgrace
f o r the system not t o have worked, but t h a t i t was a
disgrace f o r i t n o t t o be working. Then they began t o
unload. And my, the things we learned were simply
astonishing. I thought I knew a l o t about the ways and
the extent of cheating! That l e d t o the end of the honor
system. The most the University could afford w a s t h a t the
f a c u l t y should be requested t o sit in. And t h a t ' s the
system that they have now.
Riess: 	 Wouldn't you, i f you had seen any a l t e r n a t i v e , have wanted
t o r e t a i n the honor system?
Pepper: 	 No. I know j u s t where i t works, and t h a t ' s easy, and there
I used it. I n graduate courses, where they a l l knew each
Peppeft other, And i n the Law School i t works because there are
only s o many t h a t a r e going t o g e t through, and i t r e a l l y
means something. And they report i t ; they just won't take
any cheating there. I t works i n the University of Virginia
f o r somewhat similar reasons -- the t r a d i t i o n s of the
Southern Gentleman, and t h a t ' s a Southern ~ e n t l e m a n ' s
college. Under those s o r t s of conditions i t works. But
i n a big, heterogeneous u n i v e r s i t y where most of the
students don't know each other i t never, never w i l l work.
Riess: Has Harvard had an honor system?
Pei~per: Oh, 'no, not t h a t I know of. I f you take cheating v e r y
seriously, you're not going t o make t h a t kind of mistake.
W
e had very s t r i c t proctoring at Hhrvard and we wanted i t .
So t h i s was a completely new thing t o me and a shocking
thing, the more s o when I found out i t wasn't working,
Faculty Revolution
Riess: , 	Were you aware of the f a c u l t y revolution you had a r r i v e d
i n the middle of?
Pepper: 	 One of the most amazing things: i n 1919, the g r e a t year
of the r e v o l t , here I was, v i r t u a l l y a T.A., of course,
i n the o f f i c e s with Adams and Loewenberg, r i g h t i n the
heat of i t , and I d i d n ' t know anything was going on a t all.
The students had no idea, and of course I was not a member
of the faculty. I was c e r t a i n l y among them, and I d i d n ' t
know it. I didn't belong t o the Academic Senate, you see.
But they heid t h a t s o within t h e i r group t h a t not the
students o r t h e T0A.s o r the readers knew anything about
i t a t all. It w a s remarkable. X was on very intimate
terms with Loewenberg by t h a t time, and more o r l e s s s o
w i t h Adams, but I never knew about it.
Pepper: The triumvirate was administering the college, Gayley,
Stephens, and Jones. 1 never knew Jones. Cayley was a
r e a l scholar. The fellows here l i k e Adams, Loewenberg,
Popper, Hildebrand, a l l that crowd, f e l t that Stephens w
a
s
kind of a fake. But he was a wonderful l e c t u r e r and I
c a n ' t believe t h a t he was q u i t e a fake. I don't know,
A man who is a very f i n e lecturer has t o be a l i t t l e more
than an ordinarily good scholar to carry i t , or e l s e he's
under suspicion with a c e r t a i n type of academic man, Now
Cayley, there was no question of h i s scholarship i n English
and he was an outstanding popular lecturer. But Stephens
couldn't q u i t e g e t away with it. I don't know enough
about i t t o know, but when men of scholarly i n t e n t and
scholarly feeling l i k e Farnham G r i f f i t h s , f o r instance,
a lawyer on the board of regents, f e l t t h a t he was one
of the g r e a t men i n the University a t t h a t time, I r a t h e r
think he was. [Iiaughing] And he was a b l e t o produce the
apparition of scholar. Well, you have t o be something of
a scholar to produce the sense of the values of scholar-
I
ship.
Riess: 	 People on the outside -- did they know of what happened
i n the interim between Wheeler and ~ a r r o w s ?
Pepper: They knew t h a t Wheeler had retired. I don't know as they
knew t h a t he had been requested to r e t i r e . They knew
there was a break,and the triumvirate, but I don't think
t h a t outside people knew t h a t the triumvirate wasn't
working, nor t h a t t h i s rebellion took place, nor even
t h a t i t was successful and that the regents were tickled
t o death t o accept i t , apparently, I mean t h i s I have t o
say by rumor.
But i t was amazing t h a t the regents should, you know,
pepper: 	 v i r t u a l l y turn the administration of the University over
t o the f a c u l t y , where i t has remained ever since, mainly.
Well, I have t o qualify t h a t a b i t , but I think there's
more f a c u l t y r u l e here than i n any u n i v e r s i t y i n America,
Riess: Did you a t t e n d the senate meetings regularly?
Pepper: Oh, yes, I was very interested.
Adams and Loewenberg wanted me t o g e t in, I n f a c t ,
the whole department was very prominent. Adms and Loewen-
berg were very important i n the revolution. And i t kind of
developed f o r a number of years. You see, the philosophy
department got t o be a very strong, vigorous young bunch.
The two dominant departments f o r many years -- oh, I ' d say
maybe f i f t e e n o r twenty years -- were philosophy and
chemistry, i n t h i s democratic p o l i t i c s of the University,
And they d i d n ' t see eye t o eye exactly e i t h e r , s o t h a t there
would be swings back and f o r t h . But i t r e a l l y amounted t o
t h i s : Adams and Loewenberg were i n a c e n t r a l position,
and the r e s t of u s i n t h i s department worked around w i t h
them. The chemistry department, p a r t i c u l a r l y Hildebrand
and G.N. Lewis -- oh, i t was a very distinguished depart-
ment -- those men were very much i n p o l i t i c s ,
Riess: Can you characterize the viewpoints involved as l i b e r a l
and conservative, by departments?
Pepper: Well, i t wasn't l i k e n a t i o n a l p o l i t i c s i n t h a t way because
G.N. Lewis w a s as l i b e r a l a man as could be. He tended
always t o be on the opposite s i d e , He loved t o start a
rumpus. However, he was an a u t o c r a t and even though he
was very i n f l u e n t i a l i n the revolution -- Well, the s t o r y
of h i s chairmanship is very amusing. The revolution
occurred and everybody agreed t h a t everybody would be
Pepper: 	 equal t o everybody e l s e and t h a t even a s s i s t a n t professors
could be chairmen -- and some were. And s o when the
revolution occurred and the next year cane, the chemistry
departmenttook a l l of t h i s l i t e r a l l y and appointed another
man than G.N. Lewis chairman. And he was s o upset! He
took i t so personally t h a t they immediately had another
meeting and made him chairman. [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
I think that typified the difference. The chemistry
department on certain issues would tend t o be d i c t a t o r i a l
about i t , even though it's a democratic set-up, and the
philosophy department was very l i t e r a l about it. P r a l l ,
as a s s i s t a n t professor, became chairman. So we took i t
l i t e r a l l y a l l right. (Actually, he might have become an
associate professor then. ) There was an i s s u e over that.
It was a l i t t l e b i t b i t t e r . This was unusual i n the
philosophy department. Adams held i t one year that he
shouldn't have on the r o t a t i o n business, but on the younger
men's insistence he d i d n t t maintain it, and P r a l l became
chairman. That would have been i n the l a t e twenties, I
think.
Philosophy Department
Riesst 	 Was Tolman new here when you came?
Pepper: 	 Yes, he had just come the year before. W
e were both k i d s .
He was about three years ahead of me at Harvard, s o I
never s a w him there. And then he'd gone to Northwestern
and then was called here. H e arrived here a year before I
did. W
e were very deep friends. Ye had much the same
bringing-up, and I was g r e a t l y interested in psychology.
I almost became one; he did. He had the same training and
Pepper: background and i n t e r e s t s , and I learned an awful l o t from
him.
Riess: When you came out here you were q u a l i f i e d t o teach psychol-
ogy too, weren't you?
Pepper: Yes. The first o f f i c i a l position I had -- at Wellesley --
I taught psychology. I could have taught psychology any-
where. They had a very good psychology bunch here. George
S t r a t t o n was one of the g r e a t psychologists of the period.
S t r a t t o n was the big name, and he deserved it. He was the
older man. And t h i s is relevant t o what I found of the
times here, because the a u t o c r a t i c management of things
under Wheeler l e d t o a u t o c r a t i c departmental organization,
That is, the president would appoint a chairman as h i s
subordinate o f f i c e r . He would be an older man, and so on.
Well, the two older men i n the department were Rieber
and St r a t t o n . Hieber was a man who gave a very popular
' L course which he c a l l e d logic. Once a week he would give
what he c a l l e d a philosophy l e c t u r e , i n logic. Well,
t h i s ran through the year and i f you know A r i s t o t e l i a n
l o g i c you know t h a t i t would be awfully t h i n t o have one
of those e a r l y t e x t s s t r e t c h with deductive l o g i c of
syllogisms a half year, and inductive logic, with some
m i l d s c i e n t i f i c method included the second half. That's
what he did. It was a cinch caurse, H
e l i t e r a l l y was
no scholar a t all. That 1 can assure you.
But t h i s was the bottleneck course f o r a l l upper-
division students; there were no other lower-division
courses given but his. This maCe the young men i n the
department j u s t wild. They disapproved of the course and
t h e thinness of i t and the high grades t h a t he gave,
Young i n s t r u c t o r s , of course, a r e always over-rigorous,
and then you add t o t h a t t h a t they saw through t h i s man
Pepper: a t once and t h a t he was -- when he was chairman -- d i c t a t o r
of the department. And then when the revolution came on
f o r a b i t there was an attempt t o be r e a l l y democratic,
s o t h a t Rieber would be chairman and they'd Cotate, with
S t r a t t o n the next .and Rieber the next. That was the idea.
We broke t h a t up, but there were g r e a t ructions over i t .
S t r a t t o n and Rieber were very i n f l u e n t i a l on the
campus and i n the community, and there w a s a very dignified
organization t h a t had been developed by Howison -- who, by
the way, hard died when I arrived. (Now, he is a man who,
i n the h i s t o r y of the University, s h o u l d be very much gone
i n t o , because he i s a big f i g u r e i n American philosophy i n
t i ~ o s edays, the l a t t e r p a r t of the 19th century.) He was
the c e n t r a l influence, with S t r a t t o n and Rieber, younger
men at t h a t time, and Torrey (he must be In h i s e i g h t i e s ) .
And he was a prominent member of the Philosophical Union.
The Philosophical Union i s s t i l l an i n s t i t u t i o n , and
i t was very much of an i n s t i t u t i o n i n those days. It was
s e t up by Howison, and S t r a t t o n and Rieber were very
prominent i n i t , a d i t had a l o t of influence because of
the men t h a t they got here t o speak a t the union -- William
James and Royce. It was the campus philosophical associa-
tion. They would publish the lectures. It had a strong
i d e a l i s t i c bent. Howison w a s one of the i d e a l i s t i c f i g u r e s
i n American philosophy, Both S t r a t t o n and Rieber were
i d e a l i s t s , and the young fellows t h a t came i n -- with the
exception of Adams, who was somewhat i d e a l i s t i c -- were
s o r t of i n r e v o l t against Hegel and Idealism. J u s t as
now there i s a r a v o l t a g a i n s t Dewey and pragmatism.
But what I ' m r e a l l y saying here is t h a t the town was
r e l a t i v e l y small then and a l o t of the people i n the town
Pepper: 	 were i n t e r e s t e d i n University matters and entered semi-
p o l i t i c a l l y i n t o them, and t h e union w a s p a r t l y developed
t o take i n the town, Being i d e a l i s t s they had a deep
r e l i g i o u s i n t e r e s t ; t h a t is, the P r o t e s t a n t churches h i t c h
on t o idealism. So there was a strong i n t e r e s t from the
town and o l d e r members of the University i n the Philosoph-
i c a l Union and they were very much i n favor of the I d e a l i s -
t i c type of men and had no confidence i n t h i s young bunch
of whippersnappers who produced t h i s revolution.
Well, things eased up i n p a r t when S t r a t t o n and the
ps;~-chologistsl e f t and became a department of t h e i r own,
and managed things i n t h e i r own way. Besides, S t r a t t o n
didntt have the i n f e r i o r i t y complex d i f f i c u l t y of Hieber
which made him more a r b i t r a r y , you see, s o t h a t things
went very happily, very quickly f o r the psychologists.
But with us, we had a b a t t l e . Now, I was too young
t o g e t very auch i n t o t h a t , but I g o t a l i t t l e in. I w a s
coached as t o how t o a c t at a dinner which Rieber gave f o r
the department. That w a s my first .occasion of a so-to-
,
speak p o l i t i c a l - s o c i a l dinner. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
The first time
1 a v e r had avocado, too, and I immediately thought 1t w a s
wonderful.
Riess: 	 How were you t o behave?
Pepper: 	 Well, I ' v e forgotten the d e t a i l s now, but there were some
departmental p o l i t i c a l i s s u e s of g r e a t importance, and
they a ~ s u r e d
me t h a t one of the reasons f o r Rieber's
giving the dinner was t o g e t m
e t o be on h i s s i d e , and
they were warning me about a l l of t h i s and how t o behave.
I don't remember the d e t a i l s . But I was a l l ready, with
what I t d heard about Rieber, t o be on t h e i r s i d e , a l l
Pe?per : The f i r s t thing they did, as soon as they could, t o
get Rieber a l i t t l e off h i s authority, was t o break up
that bottleneck of introductory courses. And a whole
b a t t e r y of introductory courses was put i n -- an elementary
course i n e t h i c s , an elementary course i n the h i s t o r y of
philosophy, and I think three other elementary courses were
put in. Nevertheless, R i e b e r t s course s t i l l had a thousand
students i n Wheeler auditorium. But you cauld not g e t i n
around another doorway. And these other courses a l s o soon
became very respectable, two o r three hundred students i n
each.
Oh, philosophy was tremendously popular. It had a
place a l l its own on the breadth requirements. And i t
r e a l l y amounted t o this: you had t o take e i t h e r philosophy
o r mathematics. So nearly everybody took philosophy.
Riess: bias there any s o r t of c o n f l i c t involved i n the breaking
up of the philosophy and psychology depertments?
Pepper: No, i t was very friendly. I t was happening a l l over.
, It w a s a n obvious thing t o do because those men a r e
s p e c i a l i z i n g and have t h e i r i n t e r e s t s . It was a f r i e n d l y
separation, no trouble a t all.
But there was plenty of trouble with Rieber, g e t t i n g
him under control. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Looking back on i t , I
can see how tough i t was on Rieber. And looking back on
i t I w i l l have to say -- not the way I would about
Stephens because I think he had a r e a l scholarship --
t h a t t h i s course of Rieber's was s u f f i c i e n t l y well-given
and aroused enough i n t e r e s t i n philosophy s o t h a t many
students came i n t o philosaphy through t h a t who never
would have otherwise. The thing of i t was t h a t t h a t was
the one thing t h a t he did. It was a cinch course, but
he did arouse enthusiasm i n the r i g h t direction. But we
Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

made l i f e very miserable for him.
He had a beautiful old Berkeley type of shingled
redwood house on the h i l l s i d e above where the stadium is
now, looking out over the Bay, a b e a u t i f u l location. And
then the University came and placed the stadium up there.
This was a darn f o o l thing t o hbve dore anyway -- i t was
an al-i idea -- and what with the pressure of the depart-
ment I think he was f e e l i n g p e t t y s i c k about things, and
t h i s was the last i r r i t a n t . He s a i d he vould resign i f
they put the stadium there, Well, this was j u s t wonderful
f o r the philosophy department! This was j u s t grand! Bid
we heve any p i t y f o r him? [ ~ a u g h t e r ] Oh, no, no p i t y a t
all. So the matter came up i n the senate and w
e kent
there, a l l of us, because we knew t h z t t h i s was --
They were r e a l l y considering not putting the stadium there?
Well, he was a very i n f l u e n t i a l figure because of t h i s
union connection and past h i s t ~ r y
business. And being
the t i t u l a r y head of the philosophy department r a t h e r
than S t r a t t o n a f t e r Howison had gone and a l l of that, he
was a very prominent figure i n Berkeley and among a l a r s e
p a r t of the older menibers of the fzculty. So when h i s
resibmation l e t t e r was read before the senate of course
there were a number of men who would have a r i s e n t o say,
"Oh, w
e c a n ' t accept that!" But Jack Loewenberg got
r i g h t up and s a i d how sorry he was t h a t Rieber should
f e e l t h i s way, of course we had g r e a t sympathy f o r h i s
a t t i t u d e and we tilso f e l t the stadium should be be put
there, but i t was impossible t o see how w
e could d o
otherwise than accept h i s resignation. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And
the joke of i t i s that f o r the health of the department
i t was r i g h t t h a t t h i s should happen. This was under
barrows' adniniztration, I think.
-------
Pepper: Well, Rieber c e r t a i n l y g o t himself i n t o hot water,
and he couldn't g e t out. The administration placed him
down at UCLA and he lived h i s l i f e out down there. Now,
a f t e r we got r i d of Hieber t h i s was the sweetest family
of a department that you could im-ine for years and years
and years. It's now g o t some l i t t l e schisms and things
r i s i n g i n i t , but i t was a wonderful harmonious~roup.
I took over Rieber's course then. I n the midst of
the stadium affair he got ill, and it's no wonder when
you think of what was going on, and the s t i n k he 'd made.
His wife, I think, probably c a l l e d him an i d i o t . She was
tile strong-minded one i n the family and a p o r t r a i t painter,
by the way, of considerable merit. She painted, among
other things that were famous i n a c e r t a i n way, the Harvard
philosophy department a t the time of i t s height -- James
and Santayana and Miinsterberp; and Palmer. She wss the
wife of a philosopher and kina of was n j t u r a l l y thought
of, and she w a s a competent p o r t r a i t painter.
Incidentally, when the F i r s t \!orld War came on and
MUnsterberg was under a cloud she Wi9.S eskcd back -- and
I guess she was w i l l i n g t o do i t -- and she painted
M h s terberg out. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
MBnsterberg was no longer
i n the group. But she was a vigorous, strong-minded woman,
and I think t h a t Rieber was r a t h e r s o f t and p l i a b l e m d
i n t e l l e c t u a l l y thin. She WAS not i n t e l l e c t u a l l y thin by
any means. She was the strength of t h e family. Well, he
did t h i s resignation thing I think without consulting
her. So I'm sure there was a family ruckus i n i t . A t
any r a t e , he collapsed under it.
So one day, i n 1921 -- I'm s u r e i t was then, because
we were s t i l l l i v i n g on Carlton S t r e e t i n t h a t l i t t l e back
1
Pepper: 	 cottage -- Adams came down one evening and said, "We're
i n a jam. I wonder If you would take over logic,
Philosophy 1
.
" Well, I knew t h a t t h i s was going t o be
m
y big t e s t . If I could carry t h i s c l a s s , even i n a
moderate way, of a thousand students, i n Wheeler auditorium
-- wasn't t h a t something t o be flung up to? -- why I was
p r e t t y sure t h a t I would be a member of the department a f t e r
t h a t , and t h a t they probably wouldn't put me up t o t h i s
unless they were s e r i o u s l y considering me. So n a t u r a l l y
I accepted, but I had considerable f e a r s of teaching i n
big classes. A l l my teaching had been i n small ones. I
was not a n a t u r a l teacher. L had to learn.
Well, I did it. I came through a l l r i g h t . [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
And a f t e r t h a t I had no f e a r s of b i g classes, and loved
them. There were three kinds of teaching t h a t I had t o
learn: one was the small upper-division c l a s s o r whatever
it was, with 35 o r so; and there's the seminar, and any
young well-trained graduate student can do a seminar, i n
f a c t he thinks he can do i t b e t t e r than anybody e l s e , and
he can do i t p r e t t y well anyhow and the kids are waiting
f o r him; and the t h i r d thing, t h a t i n t h i s University was
e s s e n t i a l i f you were going t o do your job, was t o teach
these big courses, and a big course is anywhere from 120
students o r s o on,.. Up t o 400 students is one thing;
from 400 on i s still another. but the teahnique i s the
same. It's j u s t harder to hold the a t t e n t i o n of 800
students. And t h a t ' s before the days of loudspeakers.
You had t o raise your voice, and i t slowed up the diction.
Riess: 	 And you had t o be aware of the degree of r u s t l i n g fn the
crowd.
i
I
1
I
. Pepper:
?
, 

Exactly. And I d i d n o t want t o t a l k t o an i n a t t e n t i v e
crowd. Well, I had t o l e a r n t o hold t h e i r a t t e n t i o n , and
i t took two o r t h r e e years to l e a r n i t , but i t was l i k e
d r i v i n g a four-in-hand. It's e x c i t i n g t o reach way up on
those r e i n s and f l i p t h e whip and catch t h a t fellow out
t h e r e with h i s paper, t o hold the bunch, and t o know t h a t
i f you l o s t c o n t r o l f o r one time, if you g i v e them a d u l l
l e c t u r e once, i t r s going t o take you t h r e e o r f o u r lec-
t u r e s t o g e t them back. I n a smaller c l a s s you can take
a chance, you can go i n unprepared, The f u n n ; ~thing is
t h a t some of the b e s t l e c t u r e s I ' v e given were when I
wasn't a b l e t o prepare i t f o r some reason. But, of course,
I had t h e s t u f f . I n a b i g l e c t u r e , though, you c a n ' t take
a chance. There's a t h r i l l and an excitement, too, but
i t does take i t o u t of you. A f t e r one of those l e c t u r e s
I could n o t , f o r example, sit down a n d g e t t o a piece of
writing. There's a kind of exhaustion you wouldn't
r e a l i z e u n t i l you began t o do it. So it's a b i g job.
Later t h e high-powered l o g i c came i n , and we developed
a n e x c e l l e n t man here i n t h e department, Paul Marhenke --
and by t h e way, you know, I t h i n k as departments go t h i s
department of six o r seven men w a s one of t h e g r e a t
American departments. Themen d i d n ' t w r i t e and g e t out
i n the p u b l i c i n the same way t h a t those Harvard men did,
and it's a shame, but -- well, f o r one thing, Harvard took
our men t h a t did. They took C.I. Lewis, they took P r a l l .
with t h e first r e a l l y good book these men published,
Harvard pulled them off. They regarded t h i s as $
&
department i n t h e country t o r e c r u i t from. They t r i e d %O
g e t m e -- I ' m a publishing man, too. But the men t h a t d i d
I
Pepper:
Riesa: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

not publish here r e a l l y were just as good, and i t ' s j u s t 

a shame they didn't publish. 

Marhenke was an absolutely tops man, and everybody
knew i t around here. I n f a c t he got nationally recognized
i n the end. But the only way he could write was under
compulsion. And these union lectures I spoke of, these
came up once a year, and the way the department weaned
the union lectures away from i t s old semi-doctrinal
approach was t o make them f i n e , rigorous philosophical
lectures. We'd choose a topic and everybody i n the
department, the s i x t o e i g h t of us, would write a paper
f o r i t because i t was the big event of the year f o r him.
In f a c t , the public came too, and the l e c t u r e s became
well-known. People would half or completely f i l l t h e
old senate room, 312 Wheeler. And i t was a f u l l dress
a f f a i r , s o t o speak. And then these were published, and
the department got known.
A l l of the papers were given t h a t everling? O r was i t
competitive?
No, each of u s wrote one paper on a topic which we chose
the year before, and i t was a paper t h a t we did our
darndest on, and a l l seven papers were presented, and
they came out i n a s e r i e s as the Philosophical Union
volumes, and those were a very important contribution
to philosophy i n t h i s country f o r about twenty-five years.
They s t i l l a r e coming out, but the department has gotten
so huge that they don't do i t the same way.
And t h a t would be where your non-publishers would appear?
That would be where they'd publish, and t h a t ' s how we got
Marhenke going. Often, I've been told, he would write
h i s paper the night before, s t a y up a l l night, and t h a t ' s
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
the only way we'd g e t a paper out of him. W
e g o t h i s
t h e s i s out of him because a young i n s t r u c t o r who'd j u s t
f i n i s h e d h i s thesis, Arthur Murphy -- who, by the way,
has made q u i t e a name f o r himself s i n c e -- got a n o f f e r
from Chicago which we f e l t we couldn't meet. That was
i n 1927. Jack Loewenberg was chairman then, and somehow
o r other he took me i n t o confidence p a r t i c u l a r l y then,
and we r e a l l y thought t h a t Marhenke was a b e t t e r man, and
he was. Not s o spectacular, but one of the very f i n e
philosophers of America. But he couldn't write. W
e g o t
him t o write h i s t h e s i s by saying, ''If you can g e t your
t h e s i s done by June," -- t h i s is back i n March -- n ~ e
w i l l recommend you f o r appointment as i n s t r u c t o r t o
take Murphy's place, who's going." And he did it!
Publishing is not only important f o r g e t t i n g ahead, but
f o r l e t t i n g people know what you're thinking and doing.
Oh, I think i t ' s almost criminal f o r a man l i k e Adams,
f o r instance, with a l l h i s e r u d i t i o n and h i s breadth of
mind and the r i c h s t u f f t h a t he w a s giving h i s seminars,
t h a t t h i s d i d not come out i n p r i n t f o r the b e n e f i t of t h e
rest of us t o work on. Yes, t h e r e ' s a r e a l reason f o r i t
other than promotion. It's what allows the wi2ole s o c i e t y
of men working i n that p a r t i c u l a r f i e l d t o make t h e most
rapid progress, t o know what the other fellows a r e doing,
where they a r e .
Did you g e t an opportunity to share ideas a t conventions,
where papers might be presented though never published?
Well, if we'd had one of these things [tape-recorder] i n
those days we could have caught t h i s s t u f f . The worst
case of t h i s kind -- another of the f i n e s t philosophical
minds of t h i s country -- was W i l l i a m Savery, of th6
Pepper: University of Washington, a contemporary of Adams. He
r e a l l y had a complex against publishing and even writing.
He had an a n a l y t i c a l mind of the highest order, and
furthermore he had a knack of picking out men who were
excellent, so t h a t though the University of Washington
then, even more than now, had f i n a n c i a l d i f f i c u l t i e s , i t
had a department that w a s s o good t h a t when a graduate
student applied f o r a fellowship here and he had the
recommendation of the university of Washington department
we never questioned it. Those men were always excellent.
And Savery got there two men who became excellent
men -- and then l o s t them, they went t o Brown -- namely,
Ducasse and Blake, who were absolutely first-rate
philosophers, h i s selection. And those three men f o r
the ten t o f i f t e e n years t h a t they were up there made a
most distinguished department. Ducasse w
a
s a big publisher.
I n f a c t , I ' m surprised he wasn't picked up by Harvard,
which w a s picking up those men wherever they found them.
He just possibly may have been asked t o go, but at any
r a t e he stayed at Brown and became the c e n t r a l m a n at
Brown. And he pulled Blake a f t e r him. When Savery l o s t
those men he picked up some other very good ones. And
the department at Washington now, i n the aftermath of
h i s pickings, is still a very important department.
Well, the whole country, but p a r t i c u l a r l y those of
us i n the West, because of the western philosophical
meetings, connived with t h e administration of the
University of Washington t o g e t Savery t o write. He
was put on the calendar f o r a paper -- he would be put
on and he could come down and give i t extemporaneously,
b r i l l i a n t l y , but leaving no record! -- and we got t o
I	 107.
I
I
1
f
3
Pepper: 	 saying t h a t he couldn't come unless he showed h i s paper t o
the administrative office. [laughter] That g o t about
three o r f o u r papers out of him which is, I think, about
i
1 a l l t h a t w
e have of Savery.
1
i
i
i Donald Mackay never g o t beyond h i s Ph.D. t h e s i s
project, which he was perfecting f o r the r e s t of h i s
life. And he was a wonderful Greek scholar, one of our
I
men.
Adams had q u a n t i t i e s of material up h i s sleeve; he
could have written a g r e a t book. But a l l we got out of
I him was an e a r l y book, very early, and i t showed somewhat
1
i the s i g n s of e a r l i n e s s , and then a s l i m l i t t l e thing very
much l a t e r which d i d n ' t amount t o very much. And so the
record of the bigness of t h i s man is gone,
Marhenke has two or three a r t i c l e s t h a t are s o
f i r s t - r a t e t h a t they a r e c l a s s i c s incorporated i n many
anthologies, s o h i s name w i l l not be forgotten, but i t ' s
again too bad t h a t i t should be s o s l i m .
I ,guess the s c i e n t i s t s must publish, and the people i n
English a r e inclined to, i n a l i t e r a r y way, but it's not
s o i n philosophy,
I think i n h i s t o r y they may have the same trouble, and I
think i n the languages, too.
But what I was saying w a s t h a t t h i s w a s r e a l l y a
wonderful department i n the c a l i b e r of brains; and i n
teaching a b i l i t y too, i t w a s a f i n e department. I n f a c t ,
i t was s o good t h a t we were n o t watching out about the
future, so when two of our men r e t i r e d and two died i n
t h e i r f i f t i e s i t was a tragedy, a calamity. W
e should
have had a t least twelve men, o r f i f t e e n , at t h a t time.
And I was made uhairman when t h i s happened [1953-19581,
and i t f e l l on m
y shoulders t o see what we could do.
Pepper t Well, we couldn't do much, but I did g e t the adminis-
t r a t i o n t o say t h a t we should have twenty men. You can't
g e t twenty men a l l a t once, though, and i t i s n ' t even good
t o g e t twenty men over s i x o r e i g h t years, which was what
we have had t o be doing here, because these men a r e on the
top of the most approved wave at the time and the depart-
ment becomes a school, and t h a t ' s bad. W
e a r e somewhat
s u f f e r i n g from t h a t jam, I think.
The thing was t h a t with the high-falutin l o g i c t h a t
Warhenke g o t developing here, the old A r i s t o t e l i a n l o g i c
dropped out; a l l t h a t nice, r a t h e r high-powered common
sense reasoning from the syllogisms with a l i s t i n g of
t y p i c a l f a l l a c i e s , both inductive and deductive, got
swept away, but t h a t ' s the material -- and i t doesn't
deserve more than one term -- t h a t a lawyer, and any
ordinsry common c i t i z e n , p a r t i c u l a r l y wants. W
e argue
i n two or three s y l l o g i s t i c forms and i t ' s awfully impor-
t a n t t h a t we know how t o handle them i n s t i n c t i v e l y . That
the old l o g i c did.
Riess: 	 And t h e speech department --
Pepper: 	 They took over argumentation. So t h a t though I personally,
and I think i t would be true of others i n the old depart-
ment too, would have r a i s e d a g r e a t row, even with Marhenke,
t h a t somebody e l s e must teach t h i s other logic too, w
e
d i d n ' t have t o make t h a t b a t t l e because i t w a s being done
excellently by the speech department. And t h a t ' s the kind
of thing they've done, r i g h t a c r o s s the University. Now,
-
we don't scorn the speech people. English, I think, has
been i r r i t a t e d with them; we haven't. And they took a
good many philosophars I n t o t h a t department. You see,
i t was an a t t r a c t i v e department t o go to, and i f you didn't
Pepper: g e t a first-rate place somewhere e l s e , t o be i n the
University of California was something. So i n speech
1;
they r e c r u i t e d q u i t e a number of t h e i r staff from the
I philosophy department.
I Our present chairman, Aschenbrenner, we took from
t h a t department a t one time. W
e thought he was as good
as anybody e l s e , and he was r i g h t here. W
e took a man,
Joseph Tussman, who was a very swell teacher, a n e x c e l l e n t
philosopher -- h e ' s had some v r i t i n g trouble, too -- but
he g o t involved i n some other kinds of problems here t h a t
came t o a head i n h i s tenure promotion, an "up or outn
s i t u a t i o n . The budget Comroit t e e , I think c o r r e c t l y ,
i n s i s t e d upon h i s p u t t i n g i n f o r publication a piece of
w r i t i n g which was developed from h i s t h e s i s which we a l l
I
recommended f o r publication. But he was s t u f f y about it,
he was a ''those opposed now kind of fellow. The depart-
ment supported him i n s p i t e of i t , but the c o r n i t t e e
s a i d no. He wouldn't do what we regarded as a very
simple thing, j u s t turn i t in. So the committee l e t him
go He's a t Syracuse now.
Then we have j u s t taken i n two more of the speech
department's people. The q e e c h department ran i n t o rough
water and last year we took i n David Rynin and I s a b e l
Hungerland, both with i n t e r n a t i o n a l reputations. Go the
speech department is a f i n e department, you see. X don't
think I s a b e l Hungerl-and minded being over there despite
the d i f f i c u l t i e s ; she had a self-confidence, she knew
1
t h a t she was one of the top@ilosophers i n America, and
I don't think i t bothered her not being i n t h e philosophy
department. W
e all respected those people. But i t d i d
bother Rynin, and if they f e e l t h a t way the philosophy
department i s where they belong, because they are our
c a l i b e r a l l r i g h t .
Sam Hume 	
and the Greek Theater
Background
Riess: 	 Now, t o go back again a b i t , a l l t h i s time you were a l s o
becoming involved i n other things on campus. I n 1922
you were w r i t i n g f o r the Greek Theater Calendar.
Pepper: Oh, yes, and t h a t would hdve t o do with Sam Hume. Now,
t h e r e ' s a long s t o r y about Sam Hume. Sam is a very
important man, and he was a n i s s u e i n the days up t o the
e a r l y t h i r t i e s . I think it's i n t e r e s t i n g t o know something
about the l i f e of Sam. He was the son of a d e t e c t i v e f o r
Wells Fargo i n the days when the Wells Fargo s t a g e s were
being hijacked. And he was a very a b l e and tough detec-
t i v e and, I gather, he was a tough f a t h e r , because he
dpparently scared Sam most t o death, I guess. Sam has
never been a b l e t o d r i v e a car, f o r instance. Neverthe-
l e s s , i t a l s o bred i n Sam an air of g r e a t Wild West he-man
business. But way down deep t h e r e ' s a s c a r e and I t h i n k
maybe t h i s had something t o do with h i s becoming i n t e r e s t e d
i n c u l t u r a l things when c u l t u r e was effeminate, a compen-
s a t i o n of some kind. A t any r a t a , there is some very
i n t e r e s t i n g motivation back i n there. He was a man who
needed love awfully, and admiration, and became one of
the most popular men, maybe t h e most popular man of h i s
c l a s s [1907] i n college. And he was a cheerleader, and
apparently a supreme cheerleader, and a boy of the boys,
and I don't know what frat he belonged to, but i t was
some frat undoubtedly and everybody knew him and he knew
everybody. Even more popular than Bob Sproul, i n t h e
same generation, and a g r e a t f r i e n d of Bob's. (That's
Peppers
..,,. , .
b . .
I . ' . -
I
going t o be relevant. )
Now, a g a i n s t t h i s background, Gayley and Stephens and
e s p e c i a l l y Armes were awfully anxious t o develop the
c u l t u r a l s i d e of the community and the University, which
was r e a l l y p r e t t y primitive. And here was t h i s young
fellow who was i n t e r e s t e d i n drama i n a r a t h e r , v e l l ,
sophomoric way, and popular as the deuce with the boys,
and with an a e s t h e t i c determination and drive. And they
got the idea: here is a boy who is enormously popular.
If he w i l l head a c u l t u r a l development, i f he w i l l be the
d i r e c t o r of the Greek Theater and put t h e a t e r on the books
as a student thing t o be in, t h a t would be wonderful. So
they c a l l e d Sam i n and explained t o him his function and
s e n t him t o Harvard i n 1912, t o George Pierce Baker, who
was there.
( ~ a r v a r d
made a g r e a t mistake i n l e t t i n g Baker go
down t o Yale, and Harvard i s only j u ~ t
barely recovering
fron i t now. Baker was at Harvard, and t h i s was i n the
e a r l y times when I guess t h i s was the only drama school
i n the country, and Harvard was awfully small i n those
thinqs, but somehow i t s t a r t e d by being advanced and then
i t dropped i t and -- music and art and drama and a l l
those were very, very weak s i s t e r s i n American education
a t t h a t time.)
They did the r i g h t thing i n sending Sam t o Baker.
He had been an undergraduate here and I think he'd taken
what art there was and he apparently was r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e d
i n and w a s a stimulus f o r college dramatics. And it was
obvious that he d i d have a deep a e s t h e t i c i n t e r e s t and
sense -- wherever he could have g o t it.. . Furthermore,
they had the r i g h t idea t h a t the place where h i s t a l e n t s
would show would be i n the dramatic area. So they s e n t
Pepper: him there with the idea t h a t he would come back here, and
they a l s o gave him a year abroad.
Riess: How did they manage the funds?
Pepper: 	 Oh, they g o t the funds from Mrs. Hearst o r somebody l i k e
that. Sam can t e l l you. (He won't t e l l you about the
i n f e r i o r i t y complex. But, you know, i t w a s one of these
things were i n a c e r t a i n way t h e i n f e r i o r i t y complex pro-
duced an energy which a more normal man wouldn't have had.)
Well, now the t a l e I heard -- t h i s was before I came
here -- was t h a t i t turned Sam's head completely. He did
e x c e l l e n t work a t Harvard. This was f i n e . He did make
the most of it. H e r e a l l y was a genius and he had an
important job t o do, to "bring culture." So he a r r i v e d
here with the most e f f e t e dress of an Easterner, i f not of
an Englishman. A cane, he d i d n ' t have a monocle, but he
dressed l i k e an English gentleman. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] He walked
up under the Campanile and an old f r i e n d would come and
say, "Hi, Sam!" [very hearty] and clap him on the shoulder.
I
And [laughter, brushing imaginary d i r t from h i s shoulder].
of aourse, a f t e r three o r four occasions l i k e t h a t i t was,
Why, Sam, what the d e v i l has happened t o you?" [Laughter]
Riess: 	 There were classmates still around?
Pepper: 	 Oh, the place was f u l l of Sproul and the other fellows.
They didn't forget him. This was not more than two o r
threa years l a t e r . This was the r e t u r n of Sam, but hadn' t
he been asked t o come here and r a i s e t h e c u l t u r a l standards?
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And show what a gentleman was, you know. Well,
t h i s was i n d i c a t i v e of a c e r t a i n kind of obtuseness t h a t he
had. T e r r i f i c energy, and within a c e r t a i n range marve-
l o u s t a s t e and a b i l i t y .
Riess: 	 This r e t u r n performance was innocent then, and not a joke
on Sam's part.
Pepper: Oh, somehow o r other he g o t the notion that. t h i s was the
way t o perform h i s function i n Berkeley. He soon discovered
i t wasn't, (This I got from Worth Ryder and it's a shame
you didn't interview him, because he could t e l l a story!
Probably Worth was one of the fellows that clapped Sam on
the back. )
He was made director of the Greek Theater i n 1918.
Barrows was a l l i n favor of i t . There was no d i f f i c u l t y
with this. And he produced plays up there, and a l s o down
here.
Riessr What had the Greek Theater been doing p r i o r t o t h i s ?
Pepper: Oh, some wonderful things had been done there. B i l l y Armes
was the one who brought g r e a t opera people here. W i l l i a m
Popper w i l l have the whole history of the Greek Theater --
Mary Anglin and s o on. Armes wzs the d i r e c t o r of the
Creek Theater before Sam. Armes w a s an awfully prominent
f i g u r e i n those e a r l y days. The Japanese p r i n t collection
t h a t we have here he gathered. He was r e a l l y very impor-
t
t a n t a t t h i s juncture i n the e a r l y c u l t u r a l history, and
p a r t i c u l a r l y on dramatic lines. Anyway, he w a s hunting
f o r a s u b s t i t u t e and I think probably he had, i n a c e r t a i n
way, a good idea i n picking Sam H u e , and i t almost worked
out. This is the next thing a f t e r the honor system busi-
ness where I r e a l l y g o t involved i n p o l i t i c s , and 1 was
deeply involved.
One thing t h a t is going t o be relevant i n t h i s (and
i t sounds very innocent): Bob Sproul was best man f o r
Sam when he married, i n 1927, a g i r l who was studying
sculpture i n Paris, a very able sculptor, P o r t i a Bell.
Bob was h i s best man and Bob was at t h a t time c o n t r o l l e r
p o l i t i c a l crowd -- Loewenberg, Adams, Popper, G . N. Lewis
and Louderback and s o on -- with thewrong men among the
regents and t h e people o u t s i d e , t h a t is, t h e rah-rah crowd,
~ o b '
was t h a t type of fellow, a l l r i g h t . He's a business-
man. And t h e r e was a dalph M e r r i t t t h a t they had an i d e a
of making p r e s i d e n t , I think, when Barrows w
a
s appointed,
The f a c u l t y managed t o knock him out. So t h i s i n t i m a t e
connection between Sam and the p r e s i d e n t was -- and I ' m
n o t exaggerating a b i t -- ruinous t o Sam. And I ' d have
t o say, too, t h a t t h e r e was a c e r t a i n ground f o r its
being ruinous.
During t h e s e years when he, under Barrows, was
d i r e c t i n g the Greek Theater, h e and Tolman and s e v e r a l
members of t h e English department who have gone t h e i r
way, and I t h i n k Loewenberg t o some e x t e n t -- Loewenberg
kind of played i t both ways -- a bunch of about ten very
l i v e l y young f a c u l t y of about our age, a l l very intimate
with Sam, who had a grudge a g a i n s t the F a c u l t y Club f o r
some reason o r o t h e r , although I l i k e d i t and some of
the r e s t - l i k e d i t , b u t t h i s w a s Sam's business, we found
a l o f t down on Telegraph Avenue where the Administration
Building [ s p r o u l all] now is, over a p l a c e where t h e r e
was a kitchen, and arranged a dumbwaiter s o t h a t we could
e a t up i n t h i s l o f t and n o t be bothered by (according t o
Sam) those o l d f a c u l t y duddies. That t h i n g worked very
well f o r a couple of years. And I think around i n t h i s
time another c h a r a c t e r comes i n here, F r i t z i e Zuckerman,
who runs the Black Sheep and was i n with t h i s whole
bunch, Radin and all of us; 1 think she f e d t h e l o f t
i Pepper: 	 at the last, and the food w a s good. O r maybe, I don't
1
1 know but what we l e f t the l o f t and went t o F r i t z i e l s .
i She w a s r i g h t next door. A t any rate, F r i t z i e ' s became
t
.I
i 	
the food place. It didn't mean that we always went there,
but we went there a good deal. Well, now, you can see
the drama approaching.
[ he following interview session concerning Sam Hume and
the Greek Theatre took place a day l a t e r . Professor
Pepper now had with him and read from a notebook written
a t the time of the events spoken of.]
Pepper:
I(	
...A man t h a t knew the theatre arts and was popular with
students, t h a t ' s what Gayley and Stephens desired. The
Greek Theater was new and Professor Armes was old. Another
glorious history of the Greek Theater was needed. So Sam
was picked t o become t h a t ideal."
Riess: 	 He had r e a l l y strong men backing this.
Pepper: 	 Yes, indeed. The g i s t of what I said yesterday is correct:
$ t was not only Armes t h a t was hunting f o r h i s successor,
but i t was Morse Stephens and others interested with him
i n hunting f o r a successor f o r Armes.
Riess: 	 And i t was Armes who gave the Japanese p r i n t collection.
Pepper: 	 Yes. It's not an awfully good collection. In f a c t , I
was surprised i t wasn't better. There must be a couple
of hundred p r i n t s i n the Armes collection t h a t are very
good, but it's r e a l l y a mediocre oollection.
Well, s o he went t o Baker's school and traveled
abroad. And [quoting from book of notes gathered from
Worth Ryder 's first-hand experiences in t h i s case], "he
arrived v i t h creased white pants, with opera glasses
with the black s t r a p s hung over his shoulder. He was
..
.- ,
%
Pepper:
i 

seen by one of h i s old chums gazing up a t the Campanile
and the chum slapped him on h i s back, 'Hello, Sam.' Sam
looked around, annoyed: 'Who are you? Are you aware t o
whom you a r e speaking?'" [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Now, I g o t t h a t
s t r a i g h t from Worth Ryder. I was n o t around when t h i s
was going on. He came back here and he antagonized a l l
h i s old alumni f r i e n d s by t h i s kind of behavior, and he
came i n with a l l the knowledge of the Baker school and
d i r e c t from Europe where h c t d seen a l o t of f i n e plays.
He knew what theater was.
The f i r s t thing he did w a s t o t e l l the English Club
-- t h i s was the l i t t l e theat.er group here, a very impor-
t a n t group, and they ran the plays -- he d i r e c t e d a couple
of plays f o r them and t o l d them they d i d n ' t know a darn
thing about anything, and he antagonized t h a t whole bunch.
So the students would have nothing t o do with him at a l l
and the s t u d e n t s would have t h e i r English Club plays.
Oh, there were j u s t a few of them t h a t wanted t o work
with him, because he did have experience. And he
gathered together a cast mostly of town people and he
put h i s own plays on. These were the Wheeler H a 1 1 Plays.
And he was the director.
And then he g o t a g r e a t nhum of h i s a t the time who
had been with him i n Baker's c l a s s at Harvard at t h a t
time, I r v i n g Pichel, who l a t e r became q u i t e prominent
i n movies. P i c h e l came here as second i n command, and
hardly second. I think P i c h e l f e l t he w a s as important
as Sam, and i n a way he was. And they together put on
these plays. Then t o g i v e i t some s t r e n g t h they brought
i n a professional player, Mary Morris. They d i d put on
very good plays, with P i c h e l acting, and he w a s a good
actor.
Riess: These a r e the Wheeler H a l l Plays.
Pepper r Yes. And then l a t e r I think even t h a t began t o g e t a
l i t t l e stormy, and they rented an abandoned l i t t l e one-
room church on Bancroft between Oxford and Shattuck.
And they put on some very, very good plays there. There
i s no question about it. Sam c e r t a i n l y l i f t e d the dra-
matic tone. That was s o obvious t h a t b e t t e r students of
the English Club came, r a t h e r sheepishly, t o t h i s place
t o g e t practice.
Riess: This group was not under the A.S.U.C.?
Pepper t No, t h a t ' s a l a t e r s t o r y and a sad one. These were inde-
pendent, free-running, spontaneous groups. And as soon
as the A.S.U.C. gobbled them up they've never been the
same since.
Riess: Who was Morris Ankrum? He appears t o be d i r e c t i n g a
l i t t l e t h e a t r e project a t t h a t time too.
Pepper: Now I would have s a i d t h a t he was one of the English Club
students t h a t came over t o Sam. However, us you presently
see, Sam was deprived of h i s Greek Theater headship. He
was still head of the Greek Theater during a l l t h i s , you
see.
Riess: And what was being done in the Greek Theater when Sam was
head?
Pepper: Oh, he was p u t t i n g on plays there and doing a very good
job of It. He was spectacular. A s you'll see l a t e r , he
did them on a big s c a l e , i n terms of thousands of d o l l a r s ,
and consequently the budget would be way down, and then
i t would be up and down and up. But he was doing things
i n a big way, and when he f i n a l l y l e f t , Popper, who
succeeded him, was informed the Greek Theater waa $6000
i n debt. But $6000 f o r Sam wouldn't have been much. A
Pepper: successful performance with a f i r s t - r a t e person would have
wiped i t off the s l a t e .
Riess: He brought i n r e a l l y f i r s t - r a t e people -- did he know
these people?
Pepper: Oh, he had access. He was a r e a l theater person, and so
was Pichel. These men knew the game,
Let me say furthermore t h a t I think t h e r e ' s not much
t h a t Sam Hume couldn't do i n pageant, He vas chosen out
of the whole country t o put on the pageant i n Lexington
f o r the 150th anniversary, 1775 t o 1925, of Concord-Lex-
ington. So he r e a l l y was a r a t h e r famous man, you see.
Riess: It sounds l i k e he would have no trouble f i l l i n g the s t a g e
of the Greek Theater,
Pepper: Oh, on pageant things he was excellent. On s e n s i t i v e
things he was not.
There's another element i n here. The man on the
spot before Sam.b u r s t i n t o the scene -- burst is c o r r e c t
-- and vho coached the English Club plays, was von Neumayer
i n the speech department. He was the drama representative
here, so t o speak. How, he was a very hypersensitive s o r t
of man and you can imagine what Sam's boisterous, expansive
and energetic display of scene did t o him. For him, t h i s
was vulgar. Well, Sam vulgar. But i t had t h a t dynamic
v i t a l i t y of vulgarity t h a t the colored people have, you
see. I t was t e r r i f i c . H i s genius went s p e c i a l l y f o r the
spectacle; wherever s p e c t s c l e s were needed -- and t h a t
Creek Theater was a good place f o r them -- he directed.
Riess: 	 Pichel was b e t t e r a t other kinds of theater?
Pepper: 	 Pichel was more of an all-round director. And furthermore,
Pichel had some t a c t , and Sam had absolutely no tact.
;Riesst 

j Pepper: 

1
1
1
; Riess:
i Pepper:
J
Were Gayley and Stephens happy with t h e i r creation? 

By the time t h a t I got involved i n the b a t t l e over Sam, 

defending him i n a strange kind of way, which I ' l l have 

t o explain, Gayley had died. They were gone. I can't
say. Gayley may have been around overlapping a b i t of
my e a r l y s t a y here, but I never saw him.
I noticed t h a t Sam Hume was a l s o teadhing dramatics, in
the English department.
Yes, and t h a t was s o t h a t he would have a salary. There
was no way, apparently, of giving him a s a l a r y f o r the
Greek Theater work -- the simplest method seemed t o be
t o a t t a c h him t o the English department. That was a
g r e a t thorn because Sam's i n t e r e s t was i n the Greek
Theater and theater and he'd be down i n Hollywood o r he'd
be i n New York o r somewhere e l s e , and then sornebody'd
have t o take h i s classes. It annoyed the English depart-
ment t e r r i b l y t o have t o put i n s u b s t i t u t e s , He j u s t was
paying no a t t e n t i o n t o the English department. That was
another l i t t l e thing t h a t was put up against Sam when he
was r e a l l y us a g a i n s t it.
Von Weumayer was i n the speech department. So both
English and speech were offering dramatics courses?
Yes. It's much the same now, The speech department is
an anomaly, There's no such department in the world, I
guess, and that i s due t o a splendid Irishman by the
neme of Hartin Flaherty. H
e was given the chairmanship
of the speech department, long before I got here, and
swore t h a t i t would not be just a coaching department f o r
debaters, t h a t i t would be something s u b s t a n t i a l , t h a t i t
would have ' t o do with what constitLbs good, well-constructed,
Pepper:
I
I
i
t
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
t r u e argumentation, with an awareness of the f a l l a c i e s ,
but not employing them, and with an appreciation of the
l i t e r a t u r e of speech. And t h a t would include what used
t o be called declamation, and i t would include poetry,
but a l l on the o r a l r a t h e r than the written side,
Flaherty was a wonderful man, and he b u i l t t h a t
department up and i t was a f i n e department when I a r r i v e d
here. But the English people were r a t h e r annoyed by i t
because i t wss very popular and Flaherty was doing things,
I think they thought, npopularly,w which he shouldn't have
been doing. The o l d popular business comes in. And you
rill find t h a t t h a t is s t i l l going on. The English
d e p a r t n ~ n ttends t o be r a t h e r highbrow about c e r t a i n
kinds of courses i n argumentation, and i n English appre-
c i a t i o n -- of poetry and l i t e r a t u r e -- while the speech
department doesn't.
Asked t o Leave
Sam Iiume was through here i n 1923, wasn't he?
This was a mess and i t is r e a l l y p a r t of the d r a m here.
Sam came and he antagonized the alumni and he antagonized
the students and then he antagonized the l a d i e s of the
community because he was carrying on with Mary Morris
and he was very open about t h i s , h i s sex r e l a t i o n s ,
P a r t of the c u l t u r e he brought,
I t wasn't s o f a r o f f . That's one of the things I kind
of l i k e d about the freedom of t h i s place, you know. They
were not concealing what they were doing, n o t so much as
some places would. And one of the things t h a t those who
i
1 Pepper:
I
i
I
Riess:
Pepper:
l i k e d Sam l i k e d about him is t h a t h e was blunt. Frank
and b l u n t , and i t depended how you stood with him
whether h e was b l u n t o r frank.
So I don't think i t was awfully s e c r e t t h a t he was
carrying on with Mary Morris, and i t l e d t o h i s divorce
from a S c o t t i s h wife who was not awfully e x c i t i n g . She
was a n i c e s o r t of person, b u t Mary Morris was e x c i t i n g ,
a l l r i g h t . Not t h a t Mary Morris was the first. H
e was
the kind of fellow i f any woman married him she'd have
t o expect t h a t he would have extra-mari t a l arrangements
once i n a while. And t h i s was a once-ids-while thing,
but 1 guess i t was j u s t once too much f o r Mrs. Hume, s o
they g o t a divorce.
Then i t l e d t o r u c t i o n s with P i c h e l because he, i n
a s o r t of way, was i n love with Mary Morris and wanted
her t o have a l l the important p a r t s , and P i c h e l ' s wife
had i d e a s of a c t i n g , and she wanted a l l t h e important
p a r t s . So t h a t was what l e d t o P i c h e l ' s leaving.
When did he leave?
Well, Sam was here about t h r e e years [1918-19 t o 1923-241,
n o t a v e r y long s p e l l , and I think P i c h e l was with him
about two years, n o t long i n terms of what was hoped f o r .
Barrows was p r e s i d e n t at t h i s time. Barrows d i d
n o t make a good president. He was the man they p u t i n
a f t e r the triumvirate. Poor Barrows -- he g o t t o be a
general, d i d n ' t he? -- he had t h i s n o t i o n of army effi-
ciency, and on the o t h e r hand t h e r e was a boyish s i d e of
him which was very i d e a l i s t i c , with a very naive concep-
t i o n of democracy. So he was c o n s t a n t l y swinging from
the m i l i t a r y o f f i c e r t o t h e democratic chairman of an
I
j Pepper: i n s t i t u t i o n , and n e i t h e r of them worked here. He stymied
1 himself r i g h t down the l i n e ; he wouldn't do something f o r
f democratic reasons, and then a l l of a sudden he would do
1
I i t f o r m i l i t a r y reasons. Both things were wrong. He
: '
didn't work out a t all.
II Riess: Did ha have ar.y material e f f e c t on any of the theatre
a c t i v i t i e s ?
Pepper: No, I think not. Cmly t h a t i t wouldn't have been possible
1 f o r Sam t o have been bolerzted under -- as -yout1
1 see -- a
man of a d i f f e r e n t type. Barrows was a westerner and very
l i b e r a l i n h i s ideas -- t h a t Sam would be carrying on with
the girls d i d n ' t bother him s o long as he d i d n ' t make a
s t i n k . The funny thing i s t h a t these men who carry an, s o
t o speak, habitually, Con't mke s t i n k s , and they choose
g i r l s t h a t don't make stinks. It's the novices t h a t g e t
i n t o spectacular trouble. So I think i t did have t h a t
e f f e c t . I t was a t o l e r a n t atmosphere i n which e l l these
outrageous things t h a t Sam was doing could survive -- out-
'raging the alumni. With Wheeler he would have had trouble.
Sam had a way of making enemies of everybody who had
been a friend. I t was awfully d i f f i c u l t t o s t a y h i s
friend. H
e made such demands an you. That's t h i s
i n f e r i o r i ty business, this over-demand f o r love, you
s e e , t h a t I was talking about. It g o t fintilly foo much
f o r m
e and so I haven't seen much of him f o r years, but
I was a good f r i e n d and I s t i l l f e e l kind of a f f e c t i o n a t e
towards him.
Riess: Do you remember writing the Creek Theater Calendar, with
I r v i n g Pichel and Max Radin?
Pepper: That must have teen something I was obliging him for. I
don't remember, though.
1
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

There were only a few publications, but they were very
witty, unsigned, hypothetical discussions of drama.
Oh yes, I remember. I guess I did have a hand i n t h a t ,
but I have forgotten i t absolutely. Pichel and Radin
were n a t u r a l -- oh, once i n a while I can do something
t h a t has a l i t e r a r y something i n it, but I ' m not a
n a t u r a l l y witty man a t a l l .
I wondeined a l s o i f Chauncey Wells f i t i n t o the t h e a t r i c a l
scene?
Yes. He was a Southern Gentleman, a genuinely cultured
man, and he did a l o t r e a l l y t o bring up c u l t u r a l standards.
He w -s very prominent i n the English Club, f o r instance.
One of the strange things about him is t h a t he was taking
h i s degree at Yale and writing a t h e s i s on something o r
other and he found t h a t somebody e l s e had beat him t o it.
And t h a t discouraged him completely. But gosh, I think
t h a t most of us would g e t r i g h t t o work on another one.
And I think t h a t ' s a l i t t l e c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of wells, a
l i t t l e b i t self-defeating i n a-way, but he was a sweet
person, and too e a s i l y hurt. And t h a t h u r t him awfully.
There was a lack of energy there.
I
Wells contrasted with Hume very much. Hume wouldn t
be the kind of person he would l i k e , i n a l l kinds of ways.
Hume was no gentJeman, with a l l h i s creased white pants.
And Wells was a gentleman of gentlemen. Let me t e l l you
how gentlemanly he was: he and Hart were two prominent
men i n the English department auong the s e n i o r professors
a f t e r Cayley had r e t i r e d o r something. They were up f o r
chairmanship and they represented a s o r t of a schism,
n o t a t e r r i b l y v i o l e n t schism, but a schism, with Wells
men and Hart men. And when the vote w a s taken i t was
pepper: 	 obvious t h a t Hart had voted f o r himself, but Wells was
too much of a gentleman t o do t h a t . And he never forgave
Hart f o r t h a t ungentlemanly a c t . And Hart won.
Wells was a neighbor of ours, lived r i g h t around the
corner, and we discovered t h a t h i s wife was a d i s t a n t
r e l a t i v e of m
y wife, W
e were very fond of them both and
he was a good teacher, one of the very good teachers i n
t h i s very q u i e t , refined manner. He doesn't e n t e r i n t o
any of these things, he was not one of the big p o l i t i c a l
bosses, but you could always count on him being on --
t h i s is a l i t t l e complex, but I ' d have t o say t h i s -- on
m
y side. He always seemed t o f e e l the same way I did,
So he would be pro-Hume even though he wouldn't r e a l l y
l i k e him very much and he would n o t put out very much
e f f o r t . He was a prominent f i g u r e i n a very modest,
q u i e t way, and I think h i s influence was h i s manner and
h i s decorum and h i s behavior. H
e was very much respected
-- t h a t ' s the term -- by students.
Riesst 	 Hume shrugged o f f the creased -white pants kind of r e s p e c k
a b i l i t y and c u l t u r e soon?
Pepper: 	 W
e a l l teased him on t h a t , and then i t turned i nto.. . The
thing t h a t was r e a l l y the flamboyant business I think I'm
p a r t l y responsible f o r , but i t shows what t h i s gay young
crowd was, Tolman and Radin and three o r four of the
English departnent men, the bmch t h a t went t o e a t with
Hume. Once I came back with h a l f a dozen rough Indian
c l o t h t i e s , raw s i l k , I guess. M
y family was back e a s t
and s o some one of u s i n the group always went back prac-
t i c a l l y every year, and there was a s t o r e i n Boston t h a t
had these t i e s i n the window, and they were bright colors,
orange and red and blue and green, and I came back with a
h a l f a dozen of these and I was the envy of the crowd.
Pepper:
1
4
I
"Well," I said, "I know where you can g e t them, 3'11 send
f o r some.n [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
So we a l l blossomed i n these. And that was the time
when everybody was wearing these very conservative grey
t i e s with blaok s t r i p e s , you know, and there might be a
l i t t l e , just a l i t t l e purple. So w
e vere marked men.
That's the kind of thing t h a t Sam would encourage. He
never would be bohemian again, but he would be s t a r t l i n g .
Well, I think Tolmn and I were hardly startlirgwhen w e
were wearing clothes l i k e these, but we did love these
bright-colored t i e s , didn't l i k e t o have the g i r l s have
a l l the colors. Sam dressed l i k e a theater man, s o you
didn't think about that. It was j u s t t h a t e a r l y phase
t h a t r e a l l y wrecked him with h i s old friends, [baughter]
Now, t h i s Mary Morris business bothered Campbell.
When Campbell became president, there was a real puritan.
He'd been up on Mt. Hanilton and he hadn't associated
with these western men very much, and he was anyway, I
think, f o r a New Englander, more puritanical than lnost
of them at t h a t period were. When he came down here he
thought, f o r instance, t h a t these benches around under the
t r e e s and so on wEre bad, so one of the f i r s t things he did
was have a l l of the benches removed from the campus,
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
But the funniest thing was when he looked out of
h i s window one day and saw a l l of the l i t t l e dogs --
the campus was f u l l of dogs, s t i l l is, more or less --
disporting themselves, and he thought t h i s was an
awfully bad example f o r the students, so he banned the
dogs. ha policemen had t o keep the dogs off the campus,
1
Pepper: 	 and r e a l l y t h a t was some job because the dogs had been
used t o being fed by the kids. But the police would
f i n d a dog and take him off t o the pound o r something
and they more o r less g o t the dogs off the campus.
Well, t h i s caused a l o t of f u r o r of the laughing
kind. One of our f r i e n d s , an engineer, not i n the
University, had a l i v e l y wife who wrote t o the president
and s a i d how sorry she f e l t f o r the dogs and she couldn't
see why he had done i t ; they were picturesque and they
were, a f t e r all, going a l l around the town. So she
thought i t was r a t h e r s i l l y . Why hzd he done it?
With a l l the things he was supposed t o be doing
Campbell foand time t o write her q u i t e a long l e t t e r ,
the g i s t of which was t h a t he coilldn't explain i t him-
s e l f t o her but if she would send her husband he would
explain i t t o him. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] That l e t t e r w a s a l l
over town!
You can see with a mzn l i k e t h a t t h a t the Mary Morris
business would r e a l l y make him f e e l t h a t he had something
t h z t he ought t o do about San. So he appointed a
committee -- I was not on i t and I've forgotten most
of thz d e t a i l s -- of which Leon Richardson was chairman
and Radin was on i t and somebody e l s e , a srnall committee.
Wall, theybrowht i n witnesses about Sam l s divorce and
about h i s carryings-on--
Riess: 	 That was t h i s oomsittee's job?
Pepper: 	 That was the job, t o i n v e s t i g a t e Sam, t o see whether he
was a proper man t o have i n t h i s University, One of
the l a d i e s t h a t f e l t very strongly about i t was Mrs.
Gregory. I n f a c t , I guess probably the kind of l a d i e s
Pepper: 	 of the Town a n d Gown Club would be the kind that f e l t
strongly t h a t t h i s was not a man t o have around. Likewise,
anybody who was a f r i e n d of Mrs. Hurne, because she w a s
j u s t i f i a b l y -- [searching f o r a word] -- antagonistic
with Hume. And she had l o t s of f r i e n d s among the older
l a d i e s here.
Riess: 	 Mrs. Gregory would be one?
Pepper: Yes, and the i n t e r e s t i n g thing is t h a t Hr. Gregory [warren
Gregory] was a regent, and he was called i n t o the com-
mittee. I don't think they c a l l e d the l a d i e s in. They
were, a f t e r a l l , outside. But they called i n men, and
the men were protecting one another. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
M
r
.
Gregory, the regent, came i n (Radin reported t h i s t o me,
so i t ' s straight)^
Had he heard anything unpropitious about Hume?
"No. "
nAny carryings-on, or anything l i k e t h a t that he
knew of?"
I
"No." So f a r as he knew h i s behavior had been excel-
l e n t , good c i t i z e n of Berkeley.
So the committee s e n t up an innocuous report t o
President Campbell, and i t must have been s o because
Radin, Sam's only r e a l champion on the committee, signed
it. It was unanimous. And they s a i d they could f i n d
f
nothing. But all the l a d i e s knew. And Campbell took i t
upon himself, I guess, t o discharge Hume, because t h a t
was h i s last year here as manager. Sam was discharged
from the University. That was 1924. And then Sam went
t o Europe and improved h i s position i n theater. He was
a man of reputation, one of the known American t h e a t e r
directors.
Riesst A reputation t h a t he had earned here?
Peppert Well, what with the performances he directed i n the East,
p a r t i c u l a r l y the Concord-Lexington pageant, he w a s a man
with a name, s o he was well-received over there. I think
probably he was on jobs t h a t he picked up round about,
And there he met P o r t i a Bell, and t h a t was when Sproul
stood up as best man, and t h a t is a very important point*
Riess: Sproul -- did he take p a r t as an advocate of Sam's i n
these times?
Pepper: Well, he was c o n t r o l l e r of the University.
Riess: 1 wondered i f he r e a l l y championed Sam's cause,
Pepper: Well, he was not a member of the faoulty. It was another
bunch of businessmen and the business crowd from the
University t h a t he was going around with, Sproul d i d n ' t
go to the Faculty Club very much. He d i d n ' t mingle i n
our bunch very much.
I must have been playing tennis a l o t then. I used
t o play with h i s brother, Allen Sproul, who was a p r e t t y
good tennis player, 1 was pre$ty good. After Sproul was
president we used to go over, every once i n a while, t o
play on the courts at the President's House. Allen Sproul
was younger. He became the head of the Federal Reserve
Bank. He's probably more famous than Robert, a very, very
i n f l u e n t i a l man, and a man t h a t would not have made the
mistakes Sproul did with the l o y a l t y oath. He r e a l l y is
a bigger man than Robert, though one would n o t have known
i t perhaps u n t i l Bob made h i s big mistake, except t h a t
there was a kind of a genuineness about Allen, whereas
there was a s o r t of raucous "haw haw" q u a l i t y about Sproul.
I was always comfortable with Allen, we aould t a l k about
anything; with Bob, you couldn't seem t o g e t very near
J J Pepper:
i
I
i
1
I
I
,
1 

him. And I l a i d t h a t t o h i s being a high o f f i c i a l , but
looking back on i t I think i t w a s more than that, I think
if Allen had been the high o f f i c i a l I would have had no
d i f f i c u l t y .
I looked up Allen a couple of times i n New York and
was shown a l l over the Federal Reserve Bank there, saw
the gold and a l l t h a t , he had me i n f o r lunch with some of
h i s business colleagues, and we had good times, and I
learned some things about high business and acquired a
g r e a t admiration f o r h i s i n s t i t u t i o n , which I think is
one of the g r e a t flywheel i n s t i t u t i o n s of America. It
keeps us steady, you see. I learned from him what it was
doing, the d i f f i c u l t i e s they have. They have t o do an
awful l o t of f i g h t i n g t o save t h e i r position and t h a t
s o r t of thing. I n f a c t , it's one of the g r e a t American
i n s t i t u t i o n s .
So Bob was d i r e c t l y heard f r o a i n these things, but
he and Hume were on very intimate terms and they had much
the same manner, as college-mates together, you see.
They're out of t h e same kind of group t h a t have a manner
and a way of talking, Worth Ryder too, It's a c e r t a i n
type t h a t ' s r a t h e r common here i n California. But some2
how Allen was n o t the same. It's a manner of the wild
western pistol-carrying hail-fellow-well-met loud voice,
t h a t s o r t of thing. I l i k e d it. It w a s s o d i f f e r e n t
from me and what I ' d been brought up with. I thought i t
w a s f i n e . It's one of the reasons I think t h a t I l i k e d
a l l these men so much,
Worth Ryder became a very dear f r i e n d of mine, and
Sam would have been i f he wasn't such a d i f f i c u l t friend,
and i f he hadn't demanded s o much of you i n the way of a
i Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
Riesst
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
friend. Worth demanded nothing except t o be a friend.
Worth had no i n f e r i o r i t y complex. You know, I don't know
how far t h i s t h i n g ' l l go, but I think Sproul had a l i t t l e
i n f e r i o r i t y complex. I think t h a t t h a t was a weakness of
Bob's, very well concealed, but being semi-intimate with
him I got t h a t feeling.
Now, the next thing I must t e l l you is what happened
when Sam came back i n the a n t i c i p a t i o n t h a t Sproul would
be president.
There's something I don't understand; did t h a t committee
decide t h a t Hume was i n the c l e a r , and y e t Campbell dis-
charged him?
Yes.
Did the committee then take t h i s further?
No, the committee was dissolved. The committee made its
report and Campbell dismissed him anyhow, A s a matter of
f a c t , I think with Campbell's a t t i t u d e he was justified.
With the a t t i t u d e of Barrows o r Sproul, they wouldn't have
done it. And neither would Kerr, though Kerr, I think,
would make r a t h e r l e s s allowances than those two men.
But the l i b e r a l administrator i n America generally goes
on t h i s principle% W
e don't bpther a man's private l i f e
i f there i s no printed scandal.
I wonder why Campbell even bothered t o c a l l the committee
together. I guess he expected t h a t i t would recommend
dismissal.
Yes, I think he did. And he w a s egged on t o t h i s undoubt-
edly by h i s wife and other wives.
Another Try
[Interview held one month l a t e r ]
Riesst So he was removed from campus i n 1924.
Pepper: Yes, f o r reasons of immorality which were never o f f i c i a l l y
i n s t i t u t e d .
Sam l e f t and came back w a i n somewhere around 1928
or 1929, having been married fn P a r i s with Bob Sproul as
h i s b e s t man, which is a very important item.
Riess: Did Sproul go over there s p e c i f i c a l l y f o r the wedding?
Pepper: That I don't know, whether i t was a matter of coincidence
or whether he went over.
Then i t became probable that Sproul would be presi-
dent, and s o San came back. I ' d been on s a b b a t i c a l o r
leave. A t any r a t e , I w a s away f o r a year and came back
i n the f a l l of 1929 o r 1930. I found Sam ensconced up i n
h i s c a s t l e which had been b u i l t by t h a t time, while I was
away. That was b u i l t on h i s wife's money, t h e remainder
' of which she l o s t i n the panic of 1933. I had no idea what
was i n s t o r e f o r me. I went up there with a l l the old
f r i e n d l i n e s s t h a t we'd had because of our r e l a t i o n s h i p I
t o l d you about e a r l i e r , and he was s i t t i n g a t a desk
loaded with material on one of h i s b i g jobs t h a t he was
doing a f t e r h i s dismissal. He kind of looked a t m
e t o
s e e whether I was still with him o r n o t i when he could
see i n my a t t i t u d e that I was, he rose from h i s desk l i k e
the baron one f e l t he imagined he was, overlooking the
p l a i n s of Berkeley, and took m
e around h i s c a s t l e , and
we had a b o t t l e of white wine and we were back on our
o l d terms again.
Pepper r Well, the jobs t h a t he did, what happened t o them,
are Sam a l l over. When he came back he had no job, and
t h e Humes were wealthy then but with a l l the energy t h a t
he had he had t o have a job. A s baron of Berkeley
n a t u r a l l y he had t o look a f t e r h i s people, so he c r e a t e d
f o r himself a job. He had p o l i t i c a l connections -- t h a t
kind of a man would have -- and he created f o r himself
something of a supervisor of public entertainment of
California, some such t i t l e as that. He was on t h a t f o r
about a year and d i d very, very well. H
e had t h a t kind
of a b i l i t y and was making a l o t of progress and had done
a l o t of things, but he made a g r e a t mistake. A t the
end of the year, on the b a s i s of h i s success, he recommended
f o r himself a s a l a r y of $10,000, and t h a t took him out of
h i s job permanently. [ ~ a u ~ h t a r ]
Riess: Had he been doing paxeants and t h a t s o r t of thing?
Pepper: I don' t think he'd been doing things himself, but he'd
been seeing t h a t they were done, a l l around the north of
the s t a t e and I don't know how far down south. But i t
was regarded as a very successful thing, the kind of thing
he could do excellently.
Then he was out of that. The next thing he was t o do
was i n s t i t u t e a novie theater, and as I recall he took
over a deserted movie t h e a t e r on Bancroft Way and put on
c u l t u r a l movies. That wasn't going q u i t e as well as he
would l i k e and he did what's c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of Sam, he
scolded the audience t h a t came because i t wasn't biyger
than i t was. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
Riess: Like a minister.
Pepper: [ ~ a u g h i n ~ ]Like a minister. And n a t u r a l l y they d i d n ' t
l i k e t h a t because he was scolding the wrong people, s o t h a t
I
&
.
! 	 133.
1
,-	 ' Pepper: failed. Then he s e t up an art gallery down on Shattuck 

I
I
Avenue on the eecond story over one of the stores where 

i he had two or three o r four rooms, and he put on shows. 

i
I think he found some way of breaking even on that. It 

. was going pretty well and i t lasted f o r quite a while i n
a s o r t of in-between way.
I Riess: 	 Would he take artists under h i s wing i n a s o r t of patron
way?
Pepper: 	 I don't know quite how he worked, but I do know he had
interesting exhibits there, and speakers. H
e had me i n
there one time talking to a ladies club. It was mostly
a female audience, I know. H
e had an i n t e r e s t there, i t
was a worthwhile thing he was doing, but again tactlessly
he undertook to attack my views in my lecture -- I suppose
t h i s was charactertistic of what he did with others --
rather severely, u n t i l one of the ladies came to my
. - 1
defense, because i t was kind of embarrassing t o me.
Riess: Did t h i s take the form of a debate?
Pepper: No, no, Sam would never debate. Sam would lay down the
l a w . But then Sam realized what he was doing and allowed
m
e to say a few things extra.
f think that was Sam's last job -- before the Second
World W
a
r he was s o r t of a publicity agent f o r the
Japanese. Nothing reprehensible about t h a t a t the time
he was doing i t , but i t shows how at loose ends he was.
But back there i n the meantime Sproul had beoome
president.
Riessr 	 I n that time since he was back and before Sproul became
president he had friends on campus but he had no influ-
e n t i a l campus connections?
Pepper: 	 That's right.
L 

I
Sproul became president of the University i n 1929,
That would have been then the f a l l of 1929 t h a t I came
back. Sam was at the height of h i s f e e l i n g of triumph,
expecting t o come i n With Bob's support as d i r e c t o r of
the Greek Theater, because he believed Bob had promised
i t t o him, And I have every reason t o think t h a t Bob
did, but it's one thing promising a thing out i n the open
before you have r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , and another when you're
i n and find yourself i n a network of p o l i t i c a l problems.
The s e c r e t of' the whole thing, the b a s i s of i t , w a s t h a t
the f a c u l t y as a whole, and t h a t would include men l i k e
me who were Sam's friends, and I d i d n ' t know Bob very
well, the f a c u l t y nearly t o a man were very s k e p t i c a l
about t h e choice of a c o n t r o l l e r as president of t h i s
u n i v e r s i t y with its f i n e academic reputation. And a
f a c u l t y which had j u s t had t h i s revolution a few years
ago and had gotten democratic control were very jealous
of i t , didn't know what t h i s type of man wouid t r y t o
do; what was expected was t h a t he might a c t l i k e a
corporation president, o r manager.
Things had been flowing n i c e l y under Campbell?
Oh, no. But Campbell a t l e a s t w a s a man who b u i l t up
the academic side. He helped the quality, He did a
number of things r a t h e r q u i e t l y , and c e r t a i n l y appoint-
ments t h a t occurred under h i s administration were such
as backed up the best f a c u l t y judgment i n t h i s . The
University increased i n f a c u l t y reputation, the same
movement was going forward under Campbell. But he was
not a good public speaker, and the students never could
g e t close t o him, and then he had these funny p u r i t a n i c
ideas t h a t I t o l d you about. Barrows w a s kind of a
Pepper: 	 f a i l u r e , and the man t h a t the f a c u l t y wanted was Hurt.
A s i t turned out, Sproul made a much b e t t e r president
than I think Kart would even have made, but t h a t was not
anticipated. I don't know how any of us could have predicted
i t , and maybe, t o go further, I think t h a t one of the.reasons
he made such a good president is t h a t he had t o woo the
faculty. The faculty was against him. But the students
were enthusiastic; he was a former track a t h l e t e of the
highest grade, had a f i n e speaking voice.
There was another thing1 there was a p r e t t y widespread
f e e l i n g t h a t t h i s position was a stepping-stone t o the
governorship, and t h a t the regents who had backed him were
p o l i t i c a l l y minded and had t h i s d e f i n i t e l y i n mind; i n
other words, t h a t the president w a s not p r i m r i l y f o r the
benefit of the University but f o r the benefit of the poli-
tics of California. That didn't help.
So Sproul came i n under a very black cloud as far as
the f a a u l t y was aoncerned, and they a l l knew of h i s friend-
@ 	
s h i p with Hume, t h a t he'd been b e s t man a t Humets wedding,
and the reinstatement of Hume as head of the Creek Theater
became a symbol, of h i s r e l a t i o n t o the f a c a l t y , as a nepo-
t i s m thing. So t h a t the move t o have him director of the
theater, which was inevitable -- t h a t move had t o be made,
because the whole set-up w a s such t h a t t h i s had t o be
suggested -- was t h e c r i t i c a l move, and the ooxumittee
appointed t o recommend t o the president about t h i s w a s
the center of the problem.
Riess: 	 Sproul was not recommending t h a t he come in?
Pepper: 	 No.., Radin was on t h a t committee, and I don't know what
the composition of i t was except t h a t I believe Richardson
Peppert was also on it. Undoubtedly I once knew, because Radin
was very open about a l l those things with me. Radin and
Worth Ryder and I were known as, s o t o speak, Sam Hume 's
kids, and they knew t h a t we were. Shortly a f t e r I g o t
back I found t h a t I ' d been appointed t o the Music and
D r a m a Comittee. There wasn't a s p e c i a l committee
appointed t o consider Sam's appointment f o r the Greek
Theater, but the Huaic and Drama C o m i t t e e was converted
i n t o such a c o m i t t e e . And as soon as we saw the makeup
of t h a t comrrittee t h i s f a c t was very obvious to Worth
Ryder and m
e -- we were rnuch i n accord about t h i s s o r t
of thing. Worth Ryder and I were r a t h e r g r e a t f r i e n d s
with Radin, but h i s a t t i t u d e was a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t from
Worth Hyder's and mine, so i t was Worth Ryder and I @
Hndin, and then the rest of the comaittee, The chairman
of i t , because he had been taking over the Greek Theater
s i n c e Sam l e f t , was Popper.
Let me see i f I can remember the r e s t of the c o m i t t e e .
There was Alloo of music -- it's a Dutch name; von Neumayer,
he would be n a t u r a l because he was the dramatics manxhere
i n speech, a very r e t i r i n g , unaggressive, s e n s i t i v e s o r t
of man, just couldn't bear Sam's vigorous i n t e r p r e t a t i o n s ;
Kurtz from English; Lehmer from mathematics. It was known
t h a t von leumayer and Poppar were d e f i n i t e l y anti-Hume,
knovn that Radin and Ryder and I vere d e f i n i t e l y pro-Hume,
at l e a s t i t was thought so. Then Alloo az~dKurtz and
Lehmer would be n e u t r a l s -- incidentally, these were men
who had never gotten mixed up i n the p o l i t i c s of the Uni-
v e r s i t y very much. There w a s another man there who was
d e f i n i t e l y strongly i n Popper's group, anti-Hume. There
were three c l e a r l y a n t i s and three c l e a r l y . p r o s , and then
three neutrals.
: Pepper: It was very clear what Radin and Worth and I were
;
1	 supposed t o do, and though t h i s would be a Committee on
Conmi t t e e s appointment, the president would d e f i n i t e l y
have had a hand i n such an important thing as t h i s . Well,
as soon as I heard I was appointed and saw what t h i s frame-
work of the committee was 1 immediately went around t o
Worth's house and w
e had a long discussion as t o what we
should do. W
e knew the a t t i t u d e of the f a c u l t y , and while
i t was one thing t o be good f r i e n d s of Sam, it was another
thing t o be responsible f o r him.
j
i Riess: The a t t i t u d e of the f a c u l t y -- they d i d n ' t disapprove of
Sam s o much as they disapproved of the nepotism t h a t was
threatening?
t
; Pepper: Well, some of them f e l t strongly about Sam, but I don't
think they even were thinking about whether Sam was s u i t -
a b l e o r not. This was an i s s u e , and i t was not even simply
a nepotism i s s u e , though t h a t was good grounds i n a way.
It was, t h i s i s what the f a c u l t y wants; i s Sproul going
1
i 	 t o buck the faculty? Is he going t o accept a s e r i o u s
d e s i r e on t h e i r p a r t o r is he going t o f i g h t them?
Riesst I t sounds l i k e a f a i r c o m m i t t e e .
Pepper: It w a - a fair committee, yes. It was a very f a i r committee.
And a t once you have an i n d i c a t i o n of what Sproul vas going
t o do i n the f u t u r e by the f a i r n e s s . It was n o t stacked.
I think t h a t Sproul probably would have l i k e d t o s e e Sam
in. I don't think t h e r e ' s a b i t of doubt t h a t Sam vould
have made the Greek Theater glow.
I t was a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t f o r Worth and me t o take
the p o s i t i o n w
e did. Here is where we were d i f f e r e n t from
adi in: Radin was f o r p u t t i n g Sam i n whether o r no because
Pepper: of the a b i l i t y that he had -- and incidentally, I think
Radin probably knew more about theater than anybody on
the campus except von Neumayer, he had been intimate with
theater people i n New York, a very cultured man -- and
; there was never a wobble on h i s p a r t that Sam should go
1
i in. Radin, incidentally, was not among the inner group
I
t h a t was running the University a t t h i s time, and I'm
I
going t o come t o t h a t l a t e r ; the group t h a t were a t the
bottom of the revolution of 1919 continued to hold sway
and, as you'll see a l i t t l e l a t e r , were very d i s t r u s t f u l
I
of any new men t h a t were corning i n f o r f e a r they'd l o s e
what they'd gained, you see, s o t h a t they developed unin-
tentionally i n t o an oligarchy. Radin w a s not i n t h a t
group. I think he came i n a f t e r the revolution, so that
he wasn't mixed up i n that, and had admired what Sam had
done, and he was a man, coming from New York and all, to
i
whom the puritanic business of Campbell would seem j u s t
funny.
I n t h a t first meeting Worth and I r e a l l y decided on
a policy which we kept t o steadily8 we would not sign a
I
report t h a t would deny Sam the position, but neither would
we sign a report t h a t would put him in. Our game was t o
sign a report such t h a t i t w a s up t o the president t o make
the decision.
Riess: And you would a l s o not t r y t o sway the r e s t of the commit-
tee?
Pepper: No, except t o g e t the committee t o sign our report. This
was a queer kind of a report, you see, t h a t we were going
t o make. You'd never g e t Popper signing i t , you see.
Those were very hot meetings. The main arguments would
go across from Radin t o Popper, and i t was a very b r i l l i a n t
I
repartee. Popper would sit back i n h i s chair -- two Jews
made i t a l l the more interesting. You've seen Popper
around, t h i s wiry kind of a Jew, and Radin was a large,
plump, robust kind of Jew. Popper would lean back i n h i s
chair as chairman at the head of the table and put h i s
hand up on the table l i k e t h i s and l i s t e n t o Radin, and
Radin would lean forward, and i t would have been wonderful
t o have had t h a t down i n t o the record. The r e s t of us
would enter i n from time to t i m e .
Riess: Was Popper against him on the basis of art?
Pepper: No. The argument, of course, w a s p a r t l y on p o l i t i c a l l i n e s ,
t h a t is, as t o what Hume would do i f he were i n the Univer-
s i t y , but I think most of i t rather inconsequentially w a s
on h i s a b i l i t y as an entrepreneur. On that side Popper was
i n a very weak position. However, he argued i t t h a t way.
He would argue i t i n terms of Sam's extravagance, and he
had a l i t t l e point there because of the debt of $6,000
when he came in. On the other hand, as I s a i d e a r l i e r ,
$6,000 t o Sam is peanuts. I n one successful performance
he would wipe t h a t out, you see. So the argument spread
p r e t t y much a l l over the f i e l d , but a good deal of i t was
on what he would do i f he were i n the theater.
Oh, and another thing t h a t was very i n t e r e s t i n g and
shows you something about the p o l i t i c s of the timet It
w a s very soon apparent that a l l the d e t a i l s of our dis-
cussions were a l l over the campus among the e l i t e . W
e
would g e t reports of this. Men would come t o me, f o r
instance Gilbert Lewis -- I was something of a kid then
and he was a very prominent professor, w
e were i n the
same crowd, we used t o go t o Inverness together and picnic
and such things, but he was one of the older ones i n the
i
I
: Peppert crowd and I was one of the younger -- he s a i d , r a t h e r
!
1
i
patronizingly, which I didn't take too well, "Stephen, I
am kind of worried about reports I hear of your a t t i t u d e . "
I
1
i
So we had i t out there.
And Loewenberg along some of the same l i n e s -- of
course he wouldn't be patronizing because we were on the
same l e v e l , we were i n the same department, and all. I
was a l i t t l e cagey with Lewis, but with Loewenberg I told
I
i him j u s t exactly what Worth and I were planning. Well,
I
t h a t went back t o the crowd and they were relieved, but
t h i s should n o t hzve happened. These were supposed t o
be confidential discussions about an appointment; t h i s
was the nature of the appointment committee, and one of
the things i n the r u l e s of the game here, t h a t the revo-
l u t i o n had brought about, is t h a t appointments should be
made by committees t h a t were confidential.
Now, t h i s is one place where I came i n , One of
these meetings I opened it and s a i d , looking at Popper,
' because t h i s is where i t a l l c&e from, "It seems very
strange t o me how much leakage there is from t h i s commit-
tee. I ' m hearing a l l over the campus p r i v a t e things t h a t
we say here."
And Popper s a i d , "Why shouldn't we discuss these
matters with people who have the good of the University
a t h e a r t and a r e responsible?'*
nWell,w I s a i d , "Wow who a r e the responsible people
i n the University? How far can you discuss things?"
He said, "1 think anybody who is a regular member
of the Academic Senate -- of course you shouldn't dis-
cuss i t with people outside," which would mean Sam o r
anybody l i k e that.
Pepper: Well then, some of the others i n the committee were
much more interested. Yon Neumayer was one who was shocked,
and Alloo. These people, who didn't r e a l i z e how p o l i t i c s
went on t h i s campus, believed t h e i r heroes of the revolu-
tion, you know, would never do anything t h a t wasn't pure
and proper. [ ~ a u . g h i n ~ ]They were shocked.
The upshot of t h a t was a vote of the committee t h a t
from now on everything should be confidential, but Radin
made the remark t h a t i t w
a
s a l i t t l e b i t l a t e t o do t h a t ,
now t h a t Popp5r had been a b l e t o divulge t o a l l h i s friends.
The r e s t of us had been playing the game the other way.
That's the kind of thing that had been going on i n the
c o r n i t t e e on the side.
Riess: W
a
s Sproul kept abreast of developments? Was t h a t the way
the o o m i t t e e worked?
Pepper: There was another thing we o b ~ e c t e dto, axd t h a t is t h a t
a t one stage Popper went t o Sproul with some of the material
t h a t we had there. I t was taking an u n f a i r advantage, be-
t cause none of the rest of us would have thought of doing it.
I don't remember what i t was, I j u s t remember the incident.
This was another one of those things which arousal our anger
and again we put a s t o p t o it. But the i n t e r e s t i n g thing
is how these men i n t h e oligarchy aould do no wrong, and
t h i s is p a r t of the background, you see, t h a t becomes
important during t h a t time.
Wow, a l l I can do is t o give the f i n a l upshot of the
thing. A s things developed, Radin was r a t h e r purposely
not putting himself too far forward, and leaving i t t o
Worth and m
e t o take t h a t s i d e of it. I t became obvious
t h a t w
e were not going t o have any report we would a l l
sign, s o i t was for Popper t o make a report and f o r me t o
Pepperr 	 make a r e p o r t and see if we couldn't s i g n these two r e p o r t s ,
which w
e did. And then i t turned out t h a t Kurtz wouldn't
s i g n e i t h e r r e p o r t , s o there was a t h i r d report.
Riesst 	 You were signing two reports?
Pepper: Oh, no. I was making out a r e p o r t along the lines favor-
a b l e , saying t h i ~ twe thought t h s t Hume was a man of g r e a t
capacity and we admired the work t h a t he'd done before and
s o on, but t h a t i t was an administrative decision as t o
whether he should be appointed o r n o t . I t was very clear,
i t was up to the president, and we were not taking respon-
s i b i l i t y f o r the E n , you see.
Whereas, i n Popper's r e p o r t I'm a f r a i d he d i d n ' t g i v e
San c r e d i t f o r the a b i l i t y he had, he played t h a t down,
and i t was a thorough-going negative report. I ' v e forgot-
ten i t now. I think i t probably made a good deal of an
appeal t o h i s not being welcomed by the f a c u l t y o r something
l i k e that. i3ut Sproul, of course, knew what the l a y of the
land r d s anyhow. I never saw Kurtz's report, f o r i t d i d n ' t
' concern me, but I think von Neumayer signed his. It r e a l l y
was up t o Sproul. It vas j u s t exactly whet Worth and I
wanted. Radin vas r a t h e r sad about i t , and f e l t t h a t we
hadn't shown proper s p i r i t , but as I look back upon it I
think i t was p r e t t y wise of u s t o do what we did, and i n
consaience I couldn't say t h a t Sam was -- though 1 did
think the Greek Theater would be g r e a t l y improved with him.
But the only thing was t h a t I was j u s t not going t o be, as
a f a c u l t y man, responsible f o r h i s going i n ,
W
e never a c t u a l l y knew what happened a f t e r t h a t , but
there was a pretcy well s u b s t a n t i a t e d rumor that G i l b e r t
Lewis had gone t o the president personally and t o l d him
that i f he appointed Sam he would s e t h a l f the f a c u l t y
Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess:
t
Pepper:
Riessr
Pepper:
a g a i n s t hfn, and I r a t h e r think t h a t ' s true. Sam w a s
never appointed. So t h a t ' s that.
I wonder, i f the committee had decided t o recommend Sam,
would t h e f a c u l t y have resigned themselves t o i t ?
The b e s t you could have expected would be t h a t h a l f of
t h e committee was f o r him, even suppose Hadin had w r i t t e n
a glowing r e p o r t which Worth and I had signed, which w
e
wouldn't have. One of the things we did n o t do which I
think we were kind of expected t o do was t o e n l i s t on the
p o s i t i v e s i d e n e u t r a l men l i k e Kurtz and Alloo. W
e did
n o t t r y t o do t h a t . W
e simply c a r r i e d on t h e discussion
i n general tarms. I never argued with them personally,
because i f you're r e a l l y anxious t o do a thing l i k e t h a t
on a committee you go and s e e the men personally, t r y t o
g e t them t o s e e your p o i n t of view. W
e n w e r d i d that.
So i f one wants t o s a y so, we l e t Sam down, b u t we j u s t
could n o t be responsible f o r t h a t man under the.condftfons.
Do you think t h a t i f Sproul had g o t t e n a p o s i t i v e r e p o r t
he would have l e t Sam in?
Bob would have been a darned f o o l i f he had. H i s n o t
appointing Sam gave him the f i r s t break with the f a c u l t y .
It seems i r o n i c t h a t with the committee under Campbell
t h a t recommended t h a t Sam s t a y Campbell s a i d t h a t Sam
/
would go, and then almost the same s i t u a t i o n would have
happened under Sproul. I should think t h a t t h i s would
outrage the f a c u l t y even more,that committee recommenda-
t i o n s were ignored, s i n c e i t ' s a committee of the f a c u l t y .
I t depends on wklat a committee is f o r . Suppose that this
committee hxd been one t o appoint a man, a very a b l e
scholar, t h a t the f a c u l t y was s t r o n g l y in favor o f , and
!
1
1 Pepper: the c o m i t t e e came out through t h e Budget Committee and
i a l l t h a t and the president turned t h c t down. They would
i 1
<
have been enraged. But t h i s was a d i f f e r e n t thing.
This committee was put together t o t r y Sproul out
bhen the faculty as a whole were very, very skeptical as
t o whether he was going to be supporting the faculty. I
was f o r the f a c u l t y snd a11 t h a t -- s o were a l l three of
us as f a r as t h e t goes, Hadin too, because Radin was a
strong faculty man, but i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r case Radin
was so sure of what Sam would do i n building up t h i s very
important function f o r the c u l t u r a l community t h a t he was
willing t o mzke some s a c r i f i c e s t h e t Worth and I were not
willing t o make -- but even i f we had come i n , even i f
there had been an even positive and negative report, Bob
wculd have been an i d i o t , and h e ' s too good a p o l i t i c i a n
not t o how t h a t i t would have been a symbol t h a t he was
fighting the faculty. That's what t h a t committee developed
I into.
Riess: Did Sam Hume r e a l i z e what h i s appointment boiled down to?
Pepper: Oh, yes. Sam knew very well t h a t i t was a p o l i t i c a l issue
of the first importance. W
e three kept on friendly terms
with Sam. I don't know i f he ever knew exactly the posi-
t i o n that Worth and I were taking with regard to him. H
e
knew t h a t we had put i n w h ~ t
was not a s t r a i g h t negative
report. He knew t h a t , he must have known a good deal...
But I tnink he went on hoping t h a t the president would
appoint him a f t e r about a year. When the next year was
out and he d i d n ' t i t was j u s t very c l e a r t h a t he never
would.
Riess: Sproul could s a f e l y have done t h ~ t
a f t e r a few years?
Pepper: No. Well, Look, the president never, never could have taken
an a r b i t r a r y a c t l i k e t h a t without rousing the faculty.
The amazing thing is t h a t he never did. He always took
g r e a t pains t o see t h a t any proposition t h a t was put up
went t o the people who were properly informed about i t
f o r t h e advice t h a t he should g e t ; if i t was a questionable
matter, t o s e e t h a t the committee was well chosen, as t h i s
one was. In the h i s t o r y of the art department, which we're
coming to, y o u ' l l see again how carefullyhe maneuvered. He
never made a mistake with the f a c u l t y u n t i l the l o y a l t y
thing came along, and t h a t was tragic. That r e a l l y was
t r a g i c f o r him because he was r i d i n g high a s one of the
f i n e s t presidents i n A ~ e r i c a ,a n d was actuaLly p r e s i d e n t i a l
c a l i b e r f o r the United S t a t e s . But he continued s t i l l f o r
a few years running t h e f a c u l t y as he did before, and i t
was going smoothly, but h i s national -- not reputation,
h i s p o l i t i c a l a v a i l a b i l i t y -- j u s t went way, way down. I t
could go a long way down and s t i l l be p r e t t y good, you
know, but i t went way, wa.y down. I t was a shame.
Riessr 	 What happened t o the p o s s i b i l i t y of h i s becoming governor?
Pepper: 	 Well, I think t h i s is kind of l i k e Nixon, you know. You
have t o choose the r i ~ h t
time, and the r i g h t time j u s t
didn't develop. I t g o t along l a t e r where they began t o
think of him as p r e s i d e n t i a l c a l i b e r , l i k e Woodrow Wilson.
He was -- what d6 they c a l l i t ? -- the introducing speaker
of the Republican p r e s i d e n t i e l candidate at the big con-
vention meeting when Dewey was nominated t o run a g a i n s t
Roosevelt. So he was way up i n the p o l i t i c a l scene, and
the s t a t e of California was something worth having a
candidate from, you know, even i n those days.
I
I Riessr Then what hagpened t o Sam?
Pepper: Oh, Sam has been j u s t vegetating since. He couldn't do
nothing; he s t a r t e d a bookstore, art books, and h i s wife
very sensibly began looking out f o r h e r s e l f , took a medi-
c a l course and became a psychiatrist. He developed a
vary high-toned bookselling set-up f o r a r t and psychiatry.
He f i r s t was doing i t up i n the c a s t l e and somebody, I
don't know who, complained t h a t t h i s was not a d i s t r i c t
f o r s t o r e s , s o then he s e t up a s t o r e down here on Allston
Way o r Bancroft, the Palindrome. It was a very charming
store. And l i k e Sam, when he's done anyt9ing l i k e t h i s
i t ' s always r a t h e r dramatic, but i t ' s i n good t a s t e of a
kind. And i t was an i n t e r e s t i n g place t o go into, i t
became a sort of a meeting place f o r some of the more
bohemian. But Sam, of course, wouldn't come around the
campus anymre, s o t h a t h i s old f r i e n d s j u s t didn't s t o p
casually in.
Riess: J don't suppose he saw Sproul much any more e i t h e r .
Pepper: I don't believe so, because he must have been disappointed
i n Sproul. And Sproul, what could he do?
Then h i s wife l o s t the fortune t h a t b u i l t the castle.
Meantime she was beginning t o g e t practice i n psychiatry,
but they were r e a l l y poverty-str&en and they camped out
i n t h a t g r e a t c a s t l e , l i v i n g on very l i t t l e . 1 went U p
to see them one or two tlrres. They had a l i t t l e fellow
who had been on h i s playing s t a f f , kind of a lawyer,
still hanging around there, a queer l i t t l e fellow, but
he was a l l t h e y had there. They had one c a r and he would
chauffeur Sam around -- Sam never ran a car. Thiei young
man was a kind of a r e t a i n e r who I think adored Sam l i k e
f
: Pepper: a dog. H
e was t h e i r cook, I think, and he kept up the
1 e s t a t e as far as i t could be kept up. He w a s j u s t t h e i r
% man, p a r t of the family. He's s t i l l there with them.
She, meantime, w a s beginning t o make a l i t t l e b i t on her
practice. And as you know she's become a f i n e p s y c h i a t r i s t
and she's been supporting him since.
I t does astonish me how a b i g fortune can disappear
t h a t way. I can s e e how c e r t a i n businessmen who a r e
1 playing close t o the l i n e when a depression h i t s , going
i
i on margin and using a l l t h e i r c a p i t a l , how t h e i r business
!
can go t o pieces. But t h a t ' s not t h e i r case. These were
investments t h a t her f a t h e r , who was a very prominent
lawyer i n Napa, had made, which you would think would be
high-tone investments -- my f a t h e r had investments, h i s
income was c u t , but I don't think he l o s t a stock. They
a l l came back.
Well, t h a t ' s the s t o r y there, and Sam is still there.
I I s e e him with h i s g r e a t white beard which he grew since.
/ Riess: H
; must have strange f e e l i n g s when he looks down a t t h i s
1 place.
Pepper: He must.
1
The English Club
1Riess: You had connections with the English Club, d i d n ' t you?
Could you t e l l m
e about t h a t group before we go on t o the
Department of A r t ?
Pepper: Well, l e t m
e remember as much as I can there.
When I came t o the University i n 1919 the English Club
I
I
Peppert
i
i
t
I
Ii
I
J
Riess: 

Pepper:
was the e l i t e c u l t u r a l society of the University, and it
gathered i n t o i t everybody who was of r e a l importance i n
the theater, i n the Pelican, in the Occident, the l i t e r a r y
magazine, i n whatever was happening i n music -- they would
pick the cream r i g h t o f f of anything t h a t had t o do with
t h e arts. This might include the e d i t o r of the Daily C a l ,
but I think they were a l i t t l e chary about t h a t , And then
a l s o they had as associate members some of the most inter-
e s t i n g men i n the arts on the faculty, s o t h a t I was r e a l l y
genuinely honored t o be asked t o come in, I think about
1921, q u i t e early.
They had q u i t e a budget: they would support the 

Occident and they were giving t h e most important perfor- 

mances i n the Greek Theater, a p a r t from what Hume was

giving l a t e r , Armes had gone by t h a t time, So the Greek 

Theater would have been r > ~ t h e r
dead but f o r the English 

Club. Von Neumayer kind of played along i n the o u t s k i r t s 

, a n d helped them along and s o on, but he d i d n ' t have much
energy, s o f o r the most p a r t they were doing t h i s s t u f f on
t h e i r own. They were r e a l l y a remarkable crowd of young
kids. I think the student art element has never been so
spontaneous and r i c h as i t was when they were on t h e i r
own i n these things. They were running t h e i r own budget.
Where did t h a t come from?
Oh, the Pelican made l o t s of money, and sometimes the
t h e a t e r s did. But I think the Pelican was the f o o t b a l l ,
s o t o speak. A l l t h i s was self-supporting. They would
go out and g e t advertising, and they were reoogniesd,
they had-the University name on t h e i r productions.
The b i g i n i t i a t i o n p a r t i e s happened twice a year.
Pepper:
,
I
Riess:
I
Pepper:
I
They would give those a t places l i k e the Claremont Country
Club. Ve'd a l l come i n d r e s s s u i t s . They were r e a l l y
gala affairs, l e t m
e t e l l you, and the neophytes were
expected t o give a play, and of course with the f i n e
dramatic choices t h a t there were it would be a very
sparkling play.
This included the f a c u l t y neophytes?
No, not the f a c u l t y neophytes, but f a c u l t y speeches came
along and they were always b r i l l i a n t . I t was a very
b r i l l i a n t thing. I looked forward to i t with l o t s of
pleasure always. Gradually t h e dinner coats disappeared,
but through a l l those e a r l y years they were formal things
of a d e f i n i t e type.
They were a l s o on the whole a r a t h e r bohemian group,
which was i n self-defense a g a i n s t the r e s t of the students,
who were p r e t t y conventional, even t o the s t a t e of being
what you might c a l l vulgar. [~ a u ~ h i n g ]
One of the very
i n t e r e s t i n g things f o r me t o have watched is the gradual
,transition from a s o r t of backwards University with t h i s
very dynamic group of n o t necessarily highly cultured kids
-- but there were highly cultured people among them,
f a c u l t y people and some of the kids. They c u l t i v a t e d
those kids quickly and that vas a very highly cultured
l i t t l e group, r e a l l y . But they had t o be bohemian i n
order to survive because, well, you know, the conventional
type of person i n a non-cultured oommunity, the kind of
things they say about the artists and those people. It
vould be r a t h e r disagreeable. So they had t o put up
t h e i r defenses.
But gradually t h i s came s o t h a t -- did I ever say
Pepperr
J
s
!
;
I 1
1
i
i
Riess:
Pepper:
i n here t h a t the first a e s t h e t i c s c l a s s I had I think 

began with about 30 students and there would be, say, 

two boys and t h e rest g i r l s . Then when they grew t o be 

about 40 students i t would be, well, three-fourths g i r l s 

and a quarter boys, Well, gradually the boys began t o
be a l a r g e r proportion and the thing t h a t made a d e f i n i t e
turn somewhere i n the t h i r t i e s was when the all-American
end, Avery was h i s name, who was an a r t student, took m
y
course i n a e s t h e t i c s . Then i t was a l l r i g h t f o r boys t o
come. f think I've always had r a t h e r more g i r l s than boys,
but I t evened up p r e t t y much.
That w a s i n d i c a t i v e of a change. Row one thinks 

nothing of it a t a l l , T h i s is one of the highly cultured 

campuses of the country. I n f a c t , i t l s got, l i k e Harvard 

and Columbia, s o t h a t s o many things a r e gning on t h a t 

you have t o take a choice of an evening what y o u ' l l go t o 

if you do go, But i t wasn't s o i n those days. 

Do you mean t h a t a n organization l i k e t h i s English Club 

, i s n l t needed any longer?
Well, I ' l l have t o go back. I t was very much needed then
because i t was t h e pivot and center of a l l student c u l t u r a l
a c t i v i t i e s on the campus, and t h i s included the f a c u l t y
more o r l e s s , too. Certainly the f a c u l t y would be very
useful i n the plays, helping t o d i r e c t t h e plays, and
recommendations f o r l i t e r a r y magazines, though on the
whole they didnl t do very much there, but the f a c u l t y used
t o contribute. I was writing poetry some i n those days,
and the only poetry I ever had published was i n the Occi-
-
dent. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ] came i n , too,
So the f a c u l t y once i n 

a while. 

This was going f i n e , and somewhere along i n the 

I '
Peppert Barrows administration, I think i t was, t h e r e were some
complaints t h a t came i n from the businessmen about adver-
t i s i n g , They f e l t they were being pressed too much about
advertising, I think a l s o t h i s was where the m i l i t a r y
s i d e of Barrows came in. He f e l t t h a t more organization
-- you see, these people were technically not responsible.
The administration had a point there. I do think it was a
g r e a t mistake, but they did have a point. And the ASUC,
of course, was always jealous of the Pelican. That was a
g r e a t money-making thing done by the s t u d e n t s and the
ASUC weren't g e t t i n g the money, s o there was a jealousy
there,
A t any rate, a l l these various f a c t o r s combined, and
t h a t I think was what s e t i t going; I mean, what f i r e d
the f i n a l decigion was t h e complaint from the merchants
t h a t they were being bothered by irresponsible students
- -- w h a t they thought was irresponsible -- and they didn't
.
know when and where they should give t h e i r advertising,
1
o r how muoh they wanted t o be obliged t o the University.
I think they often didn't f e e l there was much i n i t t o
them except f o r the University, Where d i d these organi-
zations stand, and s o on, they vondered. Then Occident
wasn't the only thing seeking advertising; there would be
some other l i t t l e things t h a t would come up and f a i l .
And then the merchants wouldn't g e t paid; they vould
have done some printing, you know, and then they wouldn't
g e t paid f o r that. The University on p r i n c i p l e would
make as much counter-complaint as they could about t h i s ,
and explain t o the merchants t h a t they would have t o
* 	 look a f t e r t h e i r own i n t e r e s t s , but i n the end the Uni-
v e r s i ty would pay.
i
Pepper:
i
iI
i
Bless* 

Pepper: 

I1
I
So the administration was bothered about paying these
things and the merchants were bothered n o t knowing what
was a sound and what was not a sound student group , and
I think the g r e a t e s t thing was t h a t the ASUC wanted the
money of the Pelican. A t any r a t e , against the b i t t e r
p r o t e s t s of the English Club, a l l student a c t i v i t i e s were
organized under the ASUC. I n o t h e r words, thepelican and
the Occident were taken over l i k e t h e Daily Cal.
Did t h e English Club than come under the ASUC too?
That's what I ' m coming to. The ASUC appointed a coach f o r
the drama, t h a t was taken over. This meant i t ceme under
the ASUC Executive Committee which is, well, you know, the
t y p i c a l student bunch t h a t the English Club people had
been on the defense against. SO i t was a d i s a s t e r ,
That happened under Barrows, I ' m q u i t e sure. The
f a i t accompli was under Barrows. Campbell I don't think
would have done it; it's the kind of thing t h a t would
appeal t o a m i l l t a r y man as being s e n s i b l e along the l i n e s
of command, you see,
The English Club was t e r r i b l y b i t t e r about i t , and
the way the Executive Cornnittee t r i e d t o handle the Occi-
-
dent immediately produced trouble; they were n o t going t o
give i t freedom. That had b?en most of the time self-sup-
porting, though. (Of course, sometimes you'd g e t an e d i t o r
when i t couldn't be.) The ASUC were c u t t i n g it down t o a
budget t h a t the English Club thought was ridiculous, and
they couldn't make any headway on t h i s thing i n the Exec-
u t i v e Committee. So the English Club pulled i t s e l f off
the campus, and a number of the faculty, including me,
were thoroughly with them i n t h i s and backed them up.
1
' Peppert
, Riesst
:; Pepper:
1
They began t o publish the Occident off-campus.
Had the English Club been under the ASUC f o r a time?
Not the club, but their a c t i v i t i e s . What it amounted t o i n
essence was t h a t they took the Occident off the campus.
They couldn't take the Pelican; I'm quite sure t h a t was
sealed in. They just said, "We don't want to be a p a r t
of the University of California," and began s e l l i n g the
Occident outside the gates. Well, i t was a precarious
l i f e that the English Club led and gradually the club
died. But the prouess of its dying was rather interesting.
It didn' t die easily. The Occident got a l i t t l e e x t r a help
from the fdculty members, and some people around the corn-
munity, who f e l t they'd got a raw deal; I think i t got a
certain amount of funds from outside eouroes.
Did i t have advertising?
Yes. No reason why i t shouldn't, but I think they were
s t i l l i n some d i f f i c u l t y i n getting it. And the conven-
tional students f e l t that t h i s W a s not quite right, 80
t h a t the s a l e s were precarious. It didn't have the sup-
port of the sororities. The f r a t e r n i t i e s wouldn't care
for i t anyway, but the s o r o r i t i e s had aultural ideas,
you how. The Occident sold t o the bohemian crowd mostly,
and they're not quite able t o eupport anything.
They ha8 some other a c t i v i t i e s too. I don't quite
remember the d e t a i l s now. But w
e used to meet rather
more frequently than before, and those meetings were
very interesting meetings because they had t o do with,
"What do w
e do? How do w
e do That kind of thing,
you know. W
e took i n new members. And a l s o we kept up
our plays and somehow they allowed us t o produce them i n
5
j
Peppert 	 the Greek Theater, and w
e had two very able student direc-
tors. One of them l a s t e d f o r about two o r three years.
He made these things very successful,
I think the English Club went on l i v i n g off the campus
f o r something l i k e six, seven years i n its precarious l i f e ,
and t h i s one student direator is a professor you know very
i
well, Garff Wilson. Garff Wilson's first fame came as di-
1 r e c t o r of the English Club. Rothing much was going on up
i a t the Greek Theater, you see. Sam would not have been
I
I around, s o t h i s was i n the i n t e r v a l between Sam's not being
1 here, f i l l i n g that gap. Garff Wilson was a student; I
: think probably he was a graduate student i n speech. He
1
1
i
l e f t us t o beoome i n s t r u c t o r i n theater arts and I guess
other things at the s t a t e college near Eureka, Humboldt
S t a t e College, and there he stayed u n t i l he was c a l l e d
i
down here i n t o speech.
The other fellow is a l s o somebody who has made some-
I
thing of a name f o r himself. H i s name was Ted Bowie. H i s
f a t h e r had been an Orientalist, and he was a very differ-
e n t type of boy from Garff Wilson. Carff, you know, is
kind of smooth and easy, whereas t h i s man was r a t h e r s t i f f
and mannered and spoke with something of an Anglicized
accent, the kind of fellow that tne P h i l i s t i n e s would make
espeaial fun of. He was not q u i t e so successful as Garff,
but he kept i t up for a oouple of years a t almost the same
l e v e l , so t h a t the English Club had a s o r t of sunset of
glory with these men. This man f i n a l l y vent to the Uni-
v e r s i t y of Indiana where he i s q u i t e a prominent person
on t h e faculty there, H i s f a t h e r was a prominent writer
on Oriental art.
Pepper:
i
I
II
i
1
I n the meantime they'd bring out the Occident, and
t h i s went up and down. Most of our problems were over
the Occident, but w
e would bring i t out a t somewhat
i r r e g u l a r intervals. F i n a l l y we got an e d i t o r , by the
name of Russell, and t h i s was the time when the Hemingway
kind of s t u f f was going r i o t s , i n the twenties, during
Campbell's s b i n i s t r a t i o n . If you're going to be a
l i t e r a r y writer, why, writing t h i s kind of dubious subject
matter is shocking from the point of view of any Puritan.
Now, the first incident happened. Nothing much
would have happened i f i t had been Barrows, but t h i s was
l i k e the dogs with Campbell. Campbell'd read these things
and he would be troubled. O f course, the kids couldn't
handle these somewhat salacious subjects the way Herningway
did, but they thought t h a t vas the thing t o do, and i f you
a r e going to be an author, you must be free. Anyway, they
weren't responsible t o the campus; no business of theirs.
The thing t h a t happens i n l i t e r a r y magazines, l i t e r a r y
crowds, they get t h e i r l i t t l e boards of e d i t o r s and they
g e t cliques and such l i k e , and we had up here, just come
up from UCLA, a young teaching a s s i s t a n t i n philosophy,
a graduate student here, by the name of Donald Williams,
Donald had g r e a t f a c i l i t y i n writing, he wrote poetry and
s t o r i e s and things along with h i s philosophy, he had a
r e a l l i t e r a r y capacity. He attended some kind of a party,
I suppose a cocktail or theater party, and g o t i n with
these people very quickly because t h i s was the kind of
crowd thak he was interested in. And he was hearing t h i s
t a l k about the cliques, t h a t no matter how good you a r e
you can' t g e t accepted.
Pepper r H
e said, "I'm going t o bet t h a t I can get accepted.
I w i l l write somsthing. I've been doing p r e t t y well down
at UCLA and I think I \:rite p r e t t y well; 1'11 b e t I get
accepted." And, by golly, he did. This s t o r y was p u t in.
Now, i t happened that the president had, j u s t before
t h i s issue came out, been p a r t i c u l a r l y i r r i t a t e d with one
of Russell's previous Issues and had given him warning:
i f anything l i k e t h i s happened again he would be dismissed,
and anybody connected with i t , the writer, would be dis-
missed o r put on probation o r at any rate something; he
would be i n trouble.
Well, i f you know Donald Williams i t makes i t a l l the
funnier. This was a s t o r y t h a t was l a i d i n P a l e s t i n e and
had t o do with Joseph and Mary. A t one point i n there he
used the word "assignationn; Mary had an assignation with
the Lord, I guess. Well,
[ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ] Campbell read t h i s
and he went clean off h i s chair. He c a l l e d Russell i n and
I he c a l l e d Williams i n -- now t h i s was an a s s i s t a n t i n
philosophy, remember. Well, Russell g o t i n t o trouble.
-think t h i s was very nearly the last number... But Kassell
was not dismissed, n e i t h e r was Williams, but, t h i s is what
C a p b e l l did, and only c e r t a i n kinds of Puritans would do
i t r Williams had a teaching fellowship at the University;
Campbell took i t away from him and here he was a d r i f t .
[ 19271 Isn' t t h a t something?
Naturally t h i s was talked of a l l over the uampus, and
the philosophy department immediately s e t about g e t t i n g
t h e equivalent of the money t h a t he would. have been g e t t i n g ,
and what with some wealthy f r i e n d s up here, and I guess we
a l l contributed a l i t t l e , we sponsored him f o r the year
with as much as he would have got. Then he went t o Harvard
I
Pepper: the year a f t e r that. He landed up on the Harvard s t a f f
and is still there. One of our very f i n e philosophers i n
t h i s country. [~ a u g h i n g ]
Another thing, and much l a t e r , as far as the plays
were concerned the f a c u l t y was waiting f o r von Neumayer
t o r e t i r e before w e could do anything, and then they r e a l l y
g o t t o vork on the theater. I n the meantime the art depart-
ment was going well, As I r e c a l l , I think they made me
chairman of the committee t o start theater going along the
art department l i n e s , and we began t o hunt f o r men t o take
over the theater here.
By the way, I was i n Texas j u s t last week, and I ' d
forgotten about i t , but I was at Baylor. Baylor is a
small college of about s i x or seven thousand, a l i b e r a l
arts college, B a p t i s t , but they've famous f o r two things.
One is a kind of Browning monument a t which they have a
l o t of Brown& papers and the whole thing i s given over
t o Browning, and the other is a t h e a t e r set-up which is
nationally known, run by Paul Baker, He was j u s t s t a r t i n g
t h i s , an experimental theater, l i t e r a l l y experimental, at
Baylor back at t h i s time when we were looking f o r a man
t o be the head of .the theater here a f t e r von Meumayer had
ret i r e d ,
Baker came here and he was r a t h e r tempted, but he'd
j u s t g o t h i s thing going i n Texas and g o t some money
t h a t eeemed t o be developing and decided t h a t he would
s t a y there. But my, he would h-ive been something t o have
gotten. Baylor g o t too small f o r him and he g o t the
people i n Dallas -- about 100 miles off -- i n t e r e s t e d ,
and Frank Lloyd Wright b u i l t him a t h e a t e r , which is one
i
jl Pepper: of the famous Frank Lloyd Wright things. If you're i n
i 

i 	 t h e a t e r , t h i s is something. It's a workshop t h e a t e r i n
Dallas and he a l s o keeps up the Waco thing f o r Baylor.
But now the center of h i s i n t e r e s t is t h i s theater i n
Dallas, whioh Baylor of course g e t s the reputation for.
It's s o r t of l i k e the California Medical School i n San
I	 Francisco. And i t is r e a l l y something t o see.
I I was ta7-king t o Baker, because he remembers t h i s ,
and he was a l i t t l e r e g r e t f u l t h a t he hadn't perhaps taken
us up at t h a t time. Wouldn't t h a t have been something?
Riess: And Frank Lloyd Wright might have come and b u i l t us a
t h e a t e r here.
Pepper: Yes. ..Well, now, I don't know b u t 'what he needed some-
thing l i k e Dallas t o do t h a t . Whether they.could have
put up a Frank Lloyd Wright t h e a t e r here under the regents
of the University of California I don't know, but I doubt
it. I r e a l l y doubt that. However, there would have been
compensations, and we would have had one of the g r e a t
t
t h e a t e r set-ups of the country.
I
So, things interweave.
Riess: 	 I noticed t h a t there was some kind of an English Club 

going i n the l a t e t h i r t i e s , with Gryf Partridge the 

president i n 1938. 

Pepper: 	 Well, t h a t was the remains of it. Every once i n a while
somebody suggests a reunion, s o it's s t i l l around, some
of it.
Riesst S t i l l an e l i t e i n the t h i r t i e s ?
Pepper: O
h yes, but the s o r o r i t i e s and f r a t e r n i t i e s would look
askance .at i t , you see, and i t was not q u i t e f9respectable.n
i THE ART DEPARTMENT
Backaround
Peppert Let's begin on the art department, etc. -- and you'll find
i t involves several e t ceteras. When I first came here i n
1919, with m
y i n t e r e s t i n the arts through m
y father, I
immediately looked up the painters, There was a small
group, of whom Guest Wickson was one, and Chapel Judson.
Perham Nahl was around. Miss Patterson was here, and Hope
Cladding had oome.
And already there was trouble. Being a newcomer I
r e a l l y didn't know just what was going on except t h a t i t
was messy, and t h a t there was a p a r t i c u l a r tension between
Miss Mary Patterson and Eugen Neuhaus over the beginning
, course i n design. They'd been d i f f e r e n t l y taught and each
of them t h o w h t they knew how it ought t o be taught and
the one way i t should be taught. The eventual r e s u l t of
t h a t , which does not enter i n t o m
y picture very much, w a s
t h a t they s p l i t the department i n t o a household art depart-
ment, as it was called at t h a t time, and a drawing and art
department, engineering drawing and graphic art, and I
think Eugen was chairman f o r a while. I ' m very vague.
Riess: Yes, he was chairman from 1923 t o 1925. I n 1919 i t was
Hermann Kower.
Pepper: Well, you see, when the s p l i t was made Miss Patterson went
/
off on her own, and I think she became chairman of the
household art department, l a t e r known as decorative art.
i
? 160.
f
1
i
Pepper; He became chairman of the art department, and who was i n
there 1 don't know, except t h a t I remember Guest Wickson.
Worth Ryder must have arrived i n 1925. Judson I guess was
there, but Judson l e f t . Boynton I think was a lecturer i n
the department. Nahl was there, and Nahl w a s considerably
troubled; things were not going well. And j u s t exactly why
they weren't going well at t h a t time, except t h a t they
weren't, a p a r t from the Mary Patterson problem, I don't
know.
A s a r e s u l t of t h a t they decided to put i n Washburn
out of the o l a s s i c s department as chairman, which i 8 a
regular thing they do here when a department's i n trouble.
A committee appoints a chairman from e i t h e r some other
a l l i e d department who they think can straighten things
out or e l s e they g e t someone from the outside. It's
worked very well.
Riess: Were you on t h a t committee?
Pepper: Yes. I was playing around with the a r t i s t s , as I do,
mostly with Wickson and Boynton and Judson, and I got
t h e i r angles of things, When Ryder came I was too, but
t h a t was when things began t o boil.
Riess: This is i n contrast t o being friendly with Neuhaus and
Pahl?
Pepper: Well, Nahl I saw, but Neuhaus was the eource of trouble,
I Saw him, but we d i d n ' t c l i c k awfully well, I thought
h i s pictures were good piotures, and t h a t ' s very important.
I thought he was a good painter, not a great painter, but
he was more than ordinarily good of the Impressionistic
school and deserved the l o c a l reputation he had here,
Nahl was a supremely good draftsman, but limited t h a t way,
Pepper: 	 I think I ' d say Neuhaus was a b e t t e r painter than Nahl
because he vas a b e t t e r Impressionist than Nahl was as a
r e a l i s t , though Nahl was an exceptional draftsman.
Guest Wickson was a t e r r i f i c a l l y talented young fellow,
j u s t backfrom abroad and f u l l of Picasso, the modern school,
and Eugen didnpt l i k e the new movements. something h o s t i l e
there, So t h a t was one source of trouble. I think the
r e a l source was t h a t Eugen has the German a t t i t u d e t h a t
the head of the department is an officer. He made t h a t
r a t h e r obvious, which didn't go down with these individ-
u a l i s t i c artists. Very a u t o c r a t i c he was, and he certain-
l y made a mess of h i s short term of chairmanship,
Now, as t o the f i r s t committee I was ont George Adams
was chairman of i t , , a n d I think i t w a s probably the one
t h a t selected Washburn. 1 was down a t Adamsf house one
afternoon and he made some remarks about being on the
committee, and I gave him an e a r f u l of the complaints I
was hearing from Wickson and Boynton and the others.
"Well," he said, uYou ought t o be on t h a t c ~ m m i t t e e . ~
I said, think I should, * I was p r e t t y young then,
! I 1
and I immediately got t o thinking about the art department
organization i n r e l a t i o n t o a university l i k e t h i s , and I
did have a kind of a notion at t h a t time e a r l y before I
thought i t a l l the way through t h a t they might be b e t t e r
off as a s o r t of a separate school o r college, But I
g o t over t h a t very quickly when I thought the matter
out further, I t ultimately became a c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of
m
y policy t h a t the h e a l t h i e s t thing f o r a university w a s
t o have an art department integrated i n t o the l i b e r a l
arts college set-up, and I have stood by t h a t s t e a d i l y
ever s i n c e I r e a l l y saw the point of it,
I
i Riessr Was music having similar kinds of problems at t h a t time?
I
: Pepper! 	 No, music was having no problems except that i t was very
1
! 	 weak indeed. Music consisted v i r t u a l l y of one man, Edward
Stricklen, who w a s a good p i a n i s t but very much of a
hermit without any aggressive tendencies whatever. Neuhaus
at l e a s t had t h i s , t h a t he wanted t o build things up,
whereas Stricklen wasn't f o r building anything, but j u s t
f o r comfortably teaching composition. I think he had an
a s s i s t a n t or two, but he was r e a l l y the department. I 

g o t t o know him too... 

Riess: f had wondered if these' things helped each other, the 

movement i n the art department --

Pepper: 	 Well, they did as soon as Albert Elkus became chairman 

of music, and he and I were hand i n hand f o r many years 

there. W
e helped each other l i k e a couple of dogs i n a 

'
d i f f i c u l t b a t t l e t o g e t the arts recognized on a plane
with the sciences. 

Riess: What kind of a department was lieuhaus aiming for? 

Pepper! ' I think he had i n mind something i n the nature of an art 

school along German methods, but he was f o r aggrandizement,
t h a t is, he was f o r adding men and t h a t s o r t of thing. I
don't think he had any p a r t i c u l a r constructive ideas about
its organization t h a t were d i f f e r e n t from the conventional
art school pattern. And, as you'll see later, h i s ideas
changed with the p o l i t i c a l s i t u a t i o n , so I'm p r e t t y sure
he had no very d e f i n i t e scheme. I think i f he'd been
left to h i s own and if the American artists had been as
amenable as German artists would have been [amusement],
I ' m sure he would probably have developed a q u i t e effec-
t i v e school of practice art and design.
Pepperr I don't think he l i k e d at a l l the breaking o f f of
design with Miss Patterson. She was a d i s c i p l e of Denman
Ross, who at t h a t time was the g r e a t American developer
of design who wrote a couple of very good books t h a t f
used a good d e a l i n my e a r l i e r studies. He was an impor-
t a n t man, but h i s conception of design was very d i f f e r e n t
from the kind t h a t Eugen had been brought up on, and that
was the source of trouble, o r g source of trouble between
them. Probably he was a l s o r a t h e r brusque with her and
she was r a t h e r tender-skinned and a l s o she was American
and not German. One of h i s big troubles is t h a t he was
German, never adapted t o American democratic wayzs, A
kind of German o f f i c e r c l a s s was h i s ideal.
Riess: S o r t of inaompatible with art.
Pepper: That was one of h i s big troubles. I t was a strong per-
s o n a l i t y thing going on i n there t h a t j u s t didnft go down.
So I was put on t h i s oommittee, and my r e c o l l e c t i o n
f of my problem on t h a t c a m i t t e e was c h i e f l y i n explaining
t o the people on it, because I w a s the only one who had
t h a t s o r t of baukgrcund, what an art department might be
about, how i t might be developed, what the d i f f e r e n t
values were -- and already I had them divided i n t o the
h i s t o r i c a l , t h e o r e t i c a l , and p r a c t i c e -- and what its
function i f any i n t h e University was. Now, t h i s l a t t e r
I think I d i d g e t across t o the committee, which was then
the first impact towards a p o s i t i v e treatment of art, I
guess, here. You know, art came i n t o the University i n
a backhanded kind of way. You've got my h i s t o r y i n there
a l l about it.*
+See appended wA Brief H i s t o r i c a l Account of the Berkeley
A r t Department ."
Pepper: I drew up a scheme and they had t h a t there and i t went
! i n t o the report, and the n e t r e s u l t was the appointment of
i	
Washburn, which I didn't have very much to do with because
they wanted m
e i n there f o r the a e s t h e t i c values of the
1
i 	
thing.
Ryder and 	
Neuhaus and Washburn
Pepper: 	 Washburn knew about the problems very thoroughly and was
very d i s t r u s t f u l of Eugen, the man who had $ust been the
chairman. Coming i n as chairman of course t h a t would be a
r e a l problem.
Riess: Neuhaus was given no second chance, not told to mend h i s 

ways or --? 

Pepper: Oh, no, no. There was nothing t o mend, i n a c e r t a i n way. 

He just wasn't a successful chairman, t h a t ' s all. But 

, Washburn was not t r u s t f u l of -him, and then here came i n 

Worth Ryder as a brand new element, and Washburn put h i s
- t r u s t 	
i n Worth.
One of the d i f f i c u l t i e s perhaps -- well, I don't know
whether t o call it a d i f f i c u l t y o r not because t o m
y mind
i t was a pieoe of luck t h a t Worth was here, t h i s man of a
very g r e a t imagination and tremendous energy and of a deep
a e s t h e t i c a r t i s t i c conscience, just fresh from abroad --
was t h a t he was a dogmatic modern. However, t h i s is not
unusual for an artist and was equally trueof Eugen; Eugen
w a s an equallyd6gmatic impressionist a t t h a t time.
Riess: 	 Hov was Worth Ryder brought here?
165. 

Pepper:
Riess:
Peppert
I can't t e l l you that. This was before I was i n the inner
c i r c l e s . How they happened t o choose Worth I don't know,
but he was a California graduate, a g r e a t friend, as you
know, of Sam's. I think probably he was brought i n t h e way
Sam was, t h a t is, he was known as a fellow who'd been r a t h e r
popular with h i s students and a good f r i e n d of Sam's. Sam
had something t o do with i t , you know. Armes had, no doubt,
something to do with it. But a t any r a t e , I think they kind
of had t h e i r eye on Worth, and he was brought in.
Well, Washburn leaned very heavily on Worth, and Worth
had modern ideas and immediately Washburn began t o put
Worth's conception of the organization of the p r a c t i c e s i d e
of the department -- t h a t ' s a l l they were thinking of --
i n t o operation, which made Eugen wild. But Eugen is a very
i n t e l l i g e n t man, very b r i l l i a n t r e a l l y , and d i d n ' t show h i s
hand much then, he l a y low.
What was t h i s organization of the department?
The t r a d i t i o n i n beginning art was drawing from casts, and
ve had a l o t of c a s t s here. They were very nice casts and
where they a r e not I don't know, because they were beauti-
f u l . They had them down under the track stadium; maybe
they're s t i l l there. Kids would once i n a while g e t i n
there and damage them some. But, you see, i n the reaction,
which has been permanent -- maybe t h e r e t l l be a counter one
\
someday -- c a s t s were out, and sculpture, of course, has
gone q u i t e another direction, so those b e a u t i f u l casts
have no place. They need a l o t of space t o show well,
you know. Greek c a s t s , they are.
But I think t h i s probably would have been Neuhaus's
srgpro~bh. The regular way i n the art schools was t o s e t
the students l i g h t and shade s t u d i e s of casts and keep
i
' I
I

1
I
Pepper; 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

them a t t h a t f o r about a year, g e t t i n g eye and hand
coordination and the sense of proportion and s o on; it
was deadly. And then they'd go t o l i f e figure and carry
over t h e i r by t h i s time r a t h e r hardened academic treat-
ment of drawing onto the l i v e figure.
Worth, f o r h i s elementary classes, i n s t i t u t e d d i r e c t
drawing from s t i l l l i f e , and a s soon as he could possibly
do i t he g o t the students going on l i f e d i r e c t , But the
bzsis of instruction there was design and composition
elementst l i n e , black and white com2osition of contrasts,
textures, l i g h t and shadow, as composition elements
within a format. He'd get the kids going on that r i g h t
off. They'd make l i n e drawings, then they'd make the
black and white, then the t e x t u r a l ones, m d then they'd
put them a l l together. That was brand new, a kind of an
invention of his.
A l l i n one course?
This would a l l be i n the elementary introductory course,
and then he'd bring them i n t o color l a t e r . But the
emphasis was not on representation, i t was on composition
-- though i t was not a b s t r a c t , they'd hadn't got t h a t far.
They had Cezanne and Picasso and Matisse and those men i n
mind. And i n terms of the modern movement t h a t was
coming i n , i t was a very creative type of instruction,
He made i t a t t r a c t i v e to h i s students.
I n the meantime, we had Nahl very effectively giving
the other kind of drawing, and the two made a good contrast,
though Worth with h i s dogmatism hurt himself a lot. He
was very dogmatic about i t and rather scorned Nahl, and
made i t obvious, because Nahl had no sense of composition;
Pepper a
Riess t
Pepper t
he was, as I have said, a wonderful, old-fashioned draftsman,
They were s t i l l using the p l a s t e r c a s t s in Nahl's classes?
Yes, 1 think he used casts some, but he I think f o r the
most p a r t put them onto figures. I think he had that sense,
that the c a s t s were kind of deadly.
As a matter of f a c t , i t was f i n e t o have these two
opposite p a i n t e r s r i g h t i n the department, and Eugen of a
third kind and a very able painter. This was a beautiful
combination* And then Guest Wickson, It was an able depart-
ment. Now, Worth and Guest understood one another, and by
t h i s time Mrs. Simpson, Marion Simpson, the wife of Profes-
s o r L,B. Simpson i n Spanish, who was an able painter, was
appointed lecturer i n art, and a l i t t l e b i t l a t e r i n came
Margaret Peterson, now Margaret OIHagen, who was an excep-
tionally Mented teacher as well as painter. Neuhaus was
awfully disappointed i n her because he'd arranged f o r her
fellowship abroad, he' d recognized her a b i l i t y , She went
over and came back a complete modern and f e l l r i g h t i n t o
Worth 'a hands.
So as the department was framed up i n the e a r l y years
of Washburn's administration, you had Margaret Peterson
and Boynton, who were l e c t u r e r s -- they were not on the
regular staff -- and you had Guest Vickson, who may have
been on the s t a f f as a s s i s t a n t professor or instructor,
and Worth. Worth, actually, rather threw Nahl i n t o ~ u g e n ' s
hands by h i s scorn of h i s work, but the personnel of the
department had, so to speak, a majority weight on worth's
side. And Washburn was following Worth t o the l e t t e r .
The trouble w i t h Washburn was t h a t he didn't know a
darned thing about the job t h a t he was s e t t o do there.
Pepperx 	 He knew nothing about painting i n any way; t h a t is, Greek
archaeology is about as far off from these things t h a t
were going on as could be -- and he was l i k e a duck with
peacocks and chickens. [~aughing] Inevitably, things
were going t o go wrong sooner or l a t e r , and they did.
Washburn, I think p a r t l y because of h i s ignorance of
practicing art, ran the department very d i c t a t o r i a l l y , did
not c a l l department meetings, and he a l s o had another
peouliar s i d e of him which some chairmen take up and
which sounds reasonable t i l l you begin to think i t through:
he had a notion that i t was h i s job t o economize f o r the
University. Incidentally, he w a s a g r e a t wheel i n the
University here, not one of the dynanic leaders i n the
oligarchy, as w
e now can begin t o c a l l it, the group t h a t
produced t h e revolution i n 1919, but a willing and a very
effective committee man, oh, chairnan of the Comnit t e e on
Courses and things l i k e that. I don't think they ever
put him chairman of anything very highly responsible,
I
l i k e the Budget Committee; f o r a l l the other kinds of
things he was a very good, very e f f i c i e n t committee chair-
man, s o 	
that he had done a l l these things through the Uni-
v e r s i t y and he had the confidence of the oligarchy with
him. And out of ignorance, I think, j u s t because i t was
embarrassing -- a department meeting with Worth on one
s i d e of 	 the table and Eugen on the other would be no com-
f o r t -- he just didn't have department meetings.
Riess: 	 Why had he been chosen by the committee as chairman?
Pepper: 	 You look around a t the University at t h a t time. Who knows
anything about art? Greek was more o r less of en art
subject.
,	 Riesst
Pepperr
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
I would have thought somebody from --
Archi tecture?
O r someone from outside t h i s university.
Not at t h a t time. They d i d n ' t know whether the University
should have an art department. That w3s one of the things.
And i t was, a f t e r a l l , a r a t h e r new tning. A r t departments
were a very weak l i t t l e thing i n the university; there
was no precedent at a l l f o r policy or even f o r the presence
of art departnents, and t h a t was another one of ' the big
problems then. There was no precedent i n o r out of the
University t o go by. There was extreme need of a policy
development.
The ideas you had on how an art department should be were
not based on anythi& you'd experienced?
No. They were based on the department. It was a r e a l con-
s t r u c t i v e philosophical problem i n practice. I t was very
fascinating and p a r t i c u l a r l y seeing t h a t i t worked. How
much I can say our art department became a model across the
country I don't know, because other people were dealing
with the same problem, y e t t h i s type of department a l s o
development elsewhere. The time was r i p e f o r that kind of
thing, and i t was rather fascinating t h a t I should drop i n
to the University of California j u s t when there was need
of it. I can t e l l you a l i t t l e l a t e r j u s t what I did, the
s o r t of thing I did, but the d r m a of t h i s business is
r e a l l y too interesting n o t t o go into.
So Washburn was not calling department meetings and
he began to be contemplating o r doing things very much
against the w i l l of Worth and h i s group. The point of i t
was t h a t Eugen had subtly begun t o make h i s influence f e l t .
pepper: 	 He's a master of innuendo and i t was p r e t t y easy t o pass
around the impression t h a t t h i s was a kind of mad art t h a t
Worth and Wickson were doing, t h a t i t wae j u s t a phase
and not going t o last long, wasn't s o l i d , and t h a t the
University was making a mistake t o support them. And
the chemists p a r t i c u l a r l y , and t h a t especially meant
G i l b e r t Lewis, were convinced of t h i s , and they were a
very p o l i t i c a l l y powerful group i n the University. Adam
and Loewenberg were on the other side; they tended t o
follow me, but a l s o they didn't know what i t was about
very much.
This rumor was being spread around the Faculty Club,
and when the men saw these artists' pictures, why, t h a t
seemed t o substantf a t e what they were hearing [laughing],
and things began to g e t tense. Eugen was g e t t i n g h i s force
i n and i t began t o take effect. The question was beginning
t o loom as t o what t o do about Mrs. Simpson, who'd been
teaching here some time, and Boynton, and both of them
were still l e c t u r e r s and ought t o be on the staff, and
Worth was pressing t o have them on the staff, and Washburn
- didn't seem t o be interested.
Riess: Washburn had been going along with Worth?
Pepper: Oh, yes, he'd been going along with Worth, but you must
remember a l s o t h a t wiiole Washburn budge t-saving business.
Fortunately Wsshburn was an object lesson t o me, be-
cause i t is not the job of a chairman t o save money f o r
the University. It's h i s job t o l e t the administration
know what the department needs within reason; he can' t
always be putting up b i g sums, but he should constantly
be pressing f o r more i n the building of the department.
Peppert The economy is something that the Budget Committee and the
administration should do. It's particdarly necessary
because the aggressive, in the good sense, chairmen of
other departments are doing it, and, if you're not, you're
going to be left in the lurch. That was very obvious to
Worth and became more and more annoying. Incidentally,
it probably affected Worth's own promotion. And Washburn
wouldn't even put in applications for Worth's sabbaticals,
because that was not economical.
So a strain began to develop between Worth and Wash-
burn and it finally came to a kind of head when Worth
asked for a department meeting to consider the promotion
of Boynton and Marian Simpson to the staff. This I should
say occurred about 1932-or 1933. Nineteen-thirty-three is
when things really began to boll,
Meantime, by the way, Wickson had broken down completely,
in fact he had to be institutionalized. The immediate cause
of it -- it wasn't the real cause, of course; you don't break
down for just something going on in a department -- but the
immediate cause of it was the unpleasantnesses in the
-department, the strains there. But he was out, he would
have been another one that should have been looked after,
but by this time he was out, which didn't improve feelings
towards Eugen at all because that's where the question
came from, you see,
Well, Worth insisted on a meeting and Washburn said,
"There's no need of a meeting at all. We've got nothing
to be gained by a meeting. ti About which he
[ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
may have been correct. Nevertheless, under the democratic '
regime, and he was supposed to be one of the democratic
oligarchy, you know, you're supposed to have meetings
I Pepper:
I
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

,
Pepper:
regularly, at l e a s t once a month, s o Worth was i n a very
strong position there.
But Worth had a genius of overplaying a strong position
and r e a l l y he made an awful l o t of trouble f o r himself with
h i s dogmatism and h i s aingle-hearted desire t o g e t to the
goal as he s a w i t when there were other things t o be
thought of, too. He was not tactful. The g r e a t thing
about Worth is t h a t b a s i c a l l y he had an a e s t h e t i c conscience,
he was absolutely honest, and he didn't insinuate, he would
t e l l what he thought about Eugen, which put him at a disad-
vantage w i t h ' ~ u g e n . Eugen was much cleverer than Worth.
What he thought about Eugen as a person o r as a painter?
Oh, I ' m a f r a i d both. Certainly the person business began
t o uome out, because when he'd f i n d Eugen disparaging h i s
painting i t became personal. And not only h i s painting,
but the other people, and of course Eugen was behind the
lack of enthusiasm f o r Boynton and Mrs. Simpson.
It sounds l i k e things had been going on i n t h i s sad s t a t e
from 1925 t o 1933 and there had been no action.
That's right. Then, with t h i s pressure from Ryder...
Worth began t o have ideas t h a t he was g e t t i n g nowhere --
he had high i d e a l s for the department -- he was not going
to make any progress with Washburn any more, and he began
t o think of what oould be done. That's where I come i n
the picture as a problem f o r the first time, because he
thought of me as chairman and began t o talk about i t a
l i t t l e , t o whom I don't know. But at any r a t e Eugen g o t
wind of something l i k e t h i s and then passed i t over t o
Washburn t h a t Worth wanted t o be chairman. That s e t
Washburn against Worth and now he became a s a t e l l i t e of
peppers 	 Eugen. He had t o be a s a t e l l i t e of somebody, he j u s t could
not be on h i s own, because he d i d n ' t know enough.
Nahl meantime -- Worth had been s o kind of snooty about
Nahl's painting t h a t t h a t threw him over i n t o t h a t camp, s o
Worth was i n a r a t h e r bad way.
Probably I didn't help things at Sast t h a t juncture be-
cause my feeling was t h a t Worth should be the chairman, He
was the fellow t h a t was doing the things, knew the way i t
should go, I was confident t h a t t h i s old type of art school
i n s t r u c t i o n w a s out f o r good and t h a t the new movkment was
i n f o r a good long swing, Worth could do it. He had the
ideas, the dynamics, and s o on. I came out d e f i n i t e l y f o r
Worth. That didn't help things j u s t a t t h a t juncture, but
some kind of a crisis had t o come anyhow.
This is i n 1933. It began t o be r a t h e r c l e a r t h a t
Eugen was making headway towards the dismissal of Marian
Simpson, and he had a technical case there because h e r
husband was a member of the s t a f f i n the Spanish department.
There was a University r u l e t h a t two members of a family
could not be appointed t o the same department -- vague
enough t o be i n t e r p r e t e d as a reference t o the whole Uni-
v e r s i t y , This did have ons good element i n i t because now
the s i d e s were taking form and t h i s was a b a t t l e and i t
brought Schevill, chairman of the Spanish departmentmd
one of the r e a l l y g r e a t scholars i n the University a t the
time, to be i n t e r e s t e d i n what was going on i n the art
department. He was a g r e a t friend of Deutsch's. Maybe
1'd b e t t e r take a l i t t l e time out here t o show you what
the s t a t u s of Deutsch w a s at t h i s time, because t h a t ' s
going to be important.
Peppert
Riess: 

Pepper:
Deutsch had been one of the prominent men i n the
revolution. He was n o t a part of the oligarchy, but he
was i n the orowd and very active. But from the oligarchy
point of view he made the g r e a t mistake of backing Sproul,
s o the oligarchy was off ~ e u t s c h . Louderback was always
very strong and i n fact was p o l i t i c a l l y r i g h t i n the center
of the oligarchy, more a c t i v e than G.N. Lewis, but they
both of them were perhaps the two dynamic men and I guess
I ' d b e t t e r add Adam and Loewenberg; I think those f o u r
could be s a i d t o be the most i n f l u e n t i a l centers of force
i n the oligarchy.
Hildebrmd?
He was a youngster. H
e was very prominent and by t h i s time
he was beginning to figure, but he was a younger man
brought here by Lewis. He was here a t the time of t h e
revolution but he was too young t o be r e a l l y prominent;
he becomes very important almost a t once, by 1935, i n
there. H
e became chairman of a vital committee very soon.
Oh, you should put Popper in; he was very prominent.
Louderback w a s dean of L e t t e r s and Science and at
t h a t time the dean of L e t t e r s and Science was next man
t o the president, a p a r t from the f a c t t h a t he was kind
of off by himself. Oh, come t o think of i t there was a
vice-president by then; Hart was vice-president under
Campbell. Then Louderback went on sabbatical, s o t h a t
there was a vacancy, you see, a temporary vacancy, when
Louderback was off. Deuteah was appointed L e t t e r s and
Science dean.
Then he g o t i n very wrong with the oligarchy because
when Louderback came backfkom h i s s a b b a t i c a l he didn't
resign and give the deanship back, but kept it. f guess
Deutsch had p o l i t i c a l ambitions a l l r i g h t , and he played
h i s hand very well, but a f t e r a l l , you can play p o l i t i c s
and be a very f i n e man, too. Gosh, I hope they can say
t h a t of me. [ ~aughing] Well, Deutsch was i n a strong
glace and he didn't give i t up. That, and the f a c t t h ~ t
he'd backed Sproul, finished him with the oligarchy, and
he was r i d i n g out by himself. Well, 1 guess Sproul made
Deutsch a provost by t h a t time, s o Deutsch was second i n
command and r i g h t i n the Sproul camp. By t h i s time he
was more o r less'playing Sproul's game of being neutral.
What is important r i g h t here i s t h a t Schevill was
a g r e a t friend of Deutsch, s o t h a t the issue came r i g h t
up t o Deutsch's l a p with the inside gossip, and from
t h a t era Deutsch becomes quite a big element i n the
wavering conditions [ laughing] of the b a t t l e s t h a t
were going on.
Riess: 	 Nobody objected t o having both Simpsons on the University
staff u n t i l t h i s point? He had been on the staff before?
Pepper: 	 Oh, Leslie Simpson was d e f i n i t e l y on the staff.
Riessr But-they decided t o make an issue of i t at t h i s point?
Pepper: Well, Eugen found a good technical focus. When Eugen had
i n d i r e c t l y pried Washburn away from Worth, then he began
t o work on Marian Simpson.
Pepper Talks t o Sproul and Washburn
Pepper: 	 Now j u s t a t t h i s juncture I became deeply involved. I
had g r e a t f a i t h i n Worth, I saw the p o t e n t i a l i t i e s of a
very strong and i n t e r e s t i n g department i f he g o t control
Peppert of it. Then I for the first time really put my finger in
in a most astonishing and outrageous way. I went to the
president and I outlined the situation to him. We were
good friends, played tennis together, that sort of thing.
This was the first time I had come to him on a real issue,
and I was nervous and he was nervous. 3ow do I know?
Because we were both holding our knees [laughing] on either
side of the desk.
I said that Washburn should be displaced,that I thought
Worth was the pgrson who should be chairman.
"Well," he said, "What will happen to Neuhaus?"
"He had his chance at the chairmanship and he made a
mess of it." I told him what f was telling you about what
Worth had been doing and what he would continue to do, and
I said I had even thought of appealing to Washburn to
resign.
Sproul said, liYoc: might try it." [~zu~hter]'But
what will happen to E ~ g e n ? ~
I said, "They'll take care of him. [~aughing]
Riess: Who is "they?"
Pepper: Oh, if Worth were chairman, definitely in a position of
chairmanship, Eugen would make no more trouble, That is
what I meant.
Riess: Neuhaus, by starting this trouble, expected that he would
get his chairmanship back, or did he have something else
in mind?
Pepper: By this time his antagonism to Worth was such that I think
he was working mainly negatively, though I'm sure that he
had notions that he was being a positive influence towards
a stable and ateady and genuine art, you see, and that it
pepper: 	 was these wild Indians.,. I'll c e r t a i n l y hand that t o him.
But d e f i n i t e l y he was out to g e t r i d of Worth and h i s
s a t e l l i t e s . The e a s i e s t person to g e t r i d of r i g h t now
was Marian Simpson. She was the issue r i g h t at that
moment and t h i s was a r e a l issue, and in f a c t she vas
dismissed.
So I did t h i s outrageous thing; I called up t h i s
very important campus figure, Washburn, me, a l i t t l e --
was I associate professor? If so, only very recently.
But a youngster. Well, he was awfully busy, Should I
come to...? No, he thought we'd b e t t e r not meet i n the
art building where h i s office was, (1 s a i d f wanted t o
t a l k about t h e art department.) He came up to m
y office
i n Wheeler Hall and I outlined the s i t u a t i o n t o him and
told him t h a t i t was c l e a r he had l o s t the confidence of
the department. I said I wondered i f he wouldn't consider
resigning. [~aughing] O f a l l the f o o l things t h a t a man
could do ! However, i t was one of those f o o l things that
I
turned out t o be effective. H
e took i t surprisingly well.
He said, 	"Veil, young man, you've got a g r e a t deal t o
learn." 	 However, the n e t r e s u l t of i t vas t h a t i t
wrecked 	h i s career.
Riess: 	 H i s resignation?
Pepper: 	 No, the consequences of t h i s situation. As you might
anticipate, t h i s spread a l l around the oligarchy, m
y
asking him t o resign, It vas an outrageous thing f o r
anybody t o do. (Perhaps I shouldn*t evep have mentioned
i t , but I had a kind of an authority t o do i t from Sproul.
kyt,e I wouldn't have done i t , but a t l e z a t i t ' s going
i n t o the record and I t r u s t t h a t t h i s doesn't g e t read
, Pepper:
Riesst
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper t 

Riess: 

Pepper:
f o r q u i t e a while, but t h a t is a c t u a l l y the case.) 

1 wanted t o ask you a l i t t l e more about S p r o u l l s stand, 

when he s a i d , "You suggest t h i s t o Washburn." 

Remember, we were very close f r i e n d s , i n a way, a queer 

kind of way because Bob was not easy t o get c l o s e to. But 

maybe at t h a t time I was as close as anybody. I think he 

was talking t o m
e as i f we were t a l k i n g on a tennis court. 

This was n o t o f f i c i a l ; I didn't think i t w a s o f f i c i a l , and 

I've never mentioned i t till now, I would never use it 

against anybody, but f t was a f a c t o r i n giving m e courage 

t o do t h i s , because I had a kind of sense, i d e a l i s t t h a t 

1 was, in p r a c t i c a l matters. If I thought t h a t things 

were r i g h t , why, they should prevail, and t h a t i t w a s the 

job of anybody who thought so t o have the courage t o do 

it. 

It would have had t o be Sproul t o have worked t h i s way. 

Oh, yes. 

, You wouldnl t have approached an0ther man with such a
suggestion.
I n the first place, Deutsch wouldn't have s a i d such a thing.
I n f a c t , it's kind of remarkable t o m
e t h a t Sproul did. I
think i t showed t h a t Sproul had a good d e a l of confidence
i n my judgment. He was a very intimate f r i e n d of Eugen's,
of course, and always protected Eugen a l l through t h i s ,
though a t the same time, when I was f i n a l l y made chairman,
he defended m
e when it was an i s s u e with Eugen. What e l s e
could he do? And there was kind of an understanding between
us anyhow t h a t i f f becaize chairman he would back me up,
Pepper: 	
which he did, However he always was careful t o see t o i t --
and I wouldn't have wanted anything e l s e -- t h a t Eugen was
well protected.
I think Worth would have been perfectly willing to
have Eugen kicked out of the University or anything. The
b i t t e r n e s s between those two men was extreme. But I must
say t h a t my h o s t i l i t y t o Bugen i n the period there was j u s t
about as extreme, I was out by t h i s time t o do everything
1 could t o break Eugen's influence and see that the depart-
ment was developed with Worth guiding them on the practice
s i d e and h o p i w f o r vhat might develop off other s i d e s --
not at t h i s period thinking I was going t o be chairman,
the man who would be the last man to be chairman, you know,
i f he'd done these things. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
There were some coolnesses developed roundabout, and
n a t u r a l l y I d i d n ' t expect Yashburn to be very friendly t o
me, Marian Simpson was dismissed. But meantime t h i s
episode precipitated a committee, of which Ivzn Linforth
was chairman, a very important committee. Hildebrand was
on i t , and Loewenberg. None of the artists were on it.
To begin with, i t wss a committee t o consider the dissat-
i s f a c t i o n with Washburn. As I say, nobody could ever
object t o t h e composition of t h a t comnittee; it was very
f a i r l y made up.
Riessr 	 Was t h i s a committee t h a t Sproul would have made up?
Pepper: No, this would be made up by the Cornittee on Committees,
a n d approved by Sproul. The committee had everybody i n
t o t e s t i f y .
Msantime I went on sabbatical i n 1934, and when I
came back Washburn was out, Nnturally I never saw the
1
(
I
iI
f
i
Pepper:
report, but I came i n t o i t f o r my behavior, which had been
improper [laughing], though improper things a r e sometimes
effective. They somewhat soft-pedaled m
y situation, but
the report they put i n about Washburn, based on the t e s t i -
mony of everybody i n the department, was such t h a t he never
functioned importantly again. And Perry, then dean of the
architecture school, was put i n temporarily as the chairman.
Eugen made one of h i s witty remarks -- he can make phrases
-- when he s a i d t h a t Warren Perry ran t h e department by
nabsent treatment, " [ ~ s u g h t e r ]
So the department was j u s t pitching along i n a rough
sea, and Perry j u s t saw t o i t t h a t the mechanical work was
carried on and he kept out of the inner problems. The set-
up that Worth had organized was i n being, and Rosamund
Stanley was brought i n t o take Marian Simpson's place.
She was a Neuhaus s a t e l l i t e who was l o y a l to him and who
had not been spoiled by being t o Europe, and she r i g h t
from the beginning j u s t followed Eugen very carefully.
She was, however, the only rather weak one i n the department*
That I think I can say -- a r t i s t i c a l l y weak. Boynton was
promoted t o the regular staff. This a l l happened while I
was away*
Hans Hofmann and Summer Sessions
How, I should mention t h a t back i n 1930 Worth had arranged
t o have Hans Hofmann, who turned out t o be one of the
g r e a t painters of modern art, probably the most dynamic
teacher of i t , come here. That w
a
. one of the outrageous
Peppert things t h a t Worth -- from Eugen's point of view -- had done,
Hofmann taught summer school and had the first American
exhibition of h i s things a t the Palace of the Legion of
Honor i n town. That was a very important juncture because
even f o r the short time he was here h i s influence was tre-
mendous on the l o c a l artists, and h i s teaching is supremely
good, A l l t h i s , of course, supported Worth, and a large
mass of the art community f e l l behind Hofmann and i n d i r e c t l y
then behind Worth, s o t h a t Worth gained strength of a kind.
However, he a l s o l o s t strength, f o r t h i s crazy material,
from the point of view of the chemists, showed how crazy
artists could be, so i n t h a t respect i t helped Eugen.
Riess: Hofmann didnvt have much prestige?
Pepper: He d i d n ' t have much prestige then, no,
Riessr How is i t t h a t you can s l i p i n someone in summer sessions?
Pepper: Oh, you could g e t a man i n summer session you couldn't g e t
in regular, That's easy. For one thing, he was invited
,by the summer sessions office; a l l they have t o look out
f o r is that the men a r e respectable and p a r t i c u l a r l y that
they w i l l make a splash,
The summer school i n those days was something r e a l l y
swell. W
e had a couple of very dynamic deans and i t was
the only summer school i n the Vest Coast t h a t vas excellent,
Furthermore, i t w a s not only self-supporting, but i t had a
surplus
The first dynamic period of summer school was run by
a member of the English department, Harold L
. Bruce, and
he was succeeded f o r the second big period of summer
school by Ray G . G e t t e l l of p o l i t i c a l science, They were
pepper: 	 professors i n the wintertime but they gave up a l o t of
th,eir time t o the constructive operation of summer school,
and i t was very, very a t t r a c t i v e to people i n the East,
coming t o the cool West, and the romance of i t and a l l ,
s o they could g e t anybody, Very eminent men came here.
It was an exciting place. They would open the summer
school with a tea which was something you wouldn't m i s s .
It was a gala affair,
I think the beginning of trouble f o r t h i s g r e a t
summer school period came with World W
a
r I f . The operation
never recovered from t h a t hiatus, But a l s o i n the meantime
Mills College had been developing a good summer school and
S e a t t l e too, and I believe another thing t h a t took the
h e a r t out of i t was some ruling t h a t the dean vas not
to be allowed to save up from one year t o arrther. The
p r o f i t s made one year j u s t went i n t o the University
budget and t h a t made i t very d i f f i c u l t t o guarantee
?appointments. And furthermore, the next deans proved
rather mediocre. Eventually the school was put under
the dean of Letters and Science who had h i s hands already
f u l l . So the school ceased to be a thing of any importance
a t a l l , j u s t a humdrum business, as i t is now.
Riess: 	 When somebody l i k e Hofrnam was brought i t wasn't a kind
of a trial period before his being appointed t o the
regular faculty of a depertment?
Pepper: 	 No, no. And Bruce, who was dean then, was neutral t o a l l
p o l i t i c a l things. f think he was r e a l l y j u s t interested
i n writing about Blake and running t h i s gorgeous summer
school. Worth would not have much d i f f i c u l t y , I think,
Pepperr 	 i n g e t t i n g him e n t h u s i a s t i c about t h i s man who had made
q u i t e a reputation as a teacher, an artist abroad coming
t o America. That was easy. I think i t vas j u s t too hope-
l e s s to think of even proposing Hofmann f o r the staff here.
You vould have the whole chemistry department wild, the
whole campus and the community too. This s t y l e of art
hadn't even got a prayer then; it was only a few men
outside of the art department, l i k e me, who could see
i t and were saying t h i s is f i n e , t h i s r e a l l y is i n the
c l a s s of Cezanne and Matisse, the g r e a t painters, and
f
i 	
defending it.
i 

1 

Well, I 	guess t h a t ' s about a l l there is on summer
I school.
1
I
I
i 	 A Standby Committee Formed
i
i
I
What was the s t a t u s of the committee [ s e e p. 1791 formed
t o consider the d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n with Washburn?
lieas:
i Pepperr 	 That vas not a s e o r e t oommittee, I ' m sure of that. How
c o n f i d e n t i a l the materials were I don't know. That's an
ambiguous s o r t of thing. I think men would be supposed t o
use t h e i r discretion i n talking about Washburn's i n e f f i -
cienoy and my insubordinacy [laughter]. But a c t u a l l y ,
those things were p r e t t y well out a l l over the campus.
I Riess: What a r e the channels by which such a committee is s e t up?
I Peppert Well, now, i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r oommittee on the Vashburn
case i t w a s p r e c i p i t a t e d by my asking him t o get out. This,
however, was not the immediate source of action, because
i t w a s followed up by something I didn' t mention, and
t h a t was a delegation from the art department t o s e e
Peppers 	 Spraul at which, t o their surprise, Qeutsch was a l s o present.
And they f e l t they had made a r a t h e r poor appearance there
because they were taken somewhat by aurprise and beoauss
Sproul and Deutsch were p r e t t y aggressive a t them.
T h i s delegation was headed by Worth Ryder, and on it
were a l l the dissenting group, t h a t is, H i s s Peterson (who
nay have became Mrs. OIHagan by t h a t time), Haley may have
been here then as a recent appointment, Boynton, and M ~ B .
Simpson. So t h a t t h e outsiders would have been Washburn,
who was the point at issue, Neuhaus, and Nahl. With all
t h i s going on, and the majority numerically of the depart-
ment having l o s t confidence i n Washburn, and a deep schism
developed, things were i n very bad shape, and i t was p r e t t y
obvious that Washburn's -usefulness vas over.
#ow, who would appoint the investigating committee?
The practice varies, but probably in a oase l i k e t h i s the
president o r Deutsch, who was provost, would refer the
matter to the Committee on Conmittc?es, stating the d i f f i -
culty m d asking f o r advice. So the committee that wa8
appointed was probably made up by the Cornittee on Cora-
mltteea.
Riess: 	 Was i t 1935-19542
Peppert Yes, I think so, because f was on a sabbatical i n 1934
and wilen X came back things were a l l resolved, Washburn
out and Perry in. And Mrs. Simpson was diamissed and
Miss Stanley appointed i n her plaoe.
The chairman of that aommittee was a t first Linforth,
and then Linforth went on sabbatical, I guess i n 1935,
vllen I got back, and then Hildebrand was made chairman.
And then t o go on, t h i s aommittee, somewhat abbreviated
Pepper: perhaps, was continued on my request throughout my adminis-
t r a t i o n s o t h a t I would have something t o f a l l back on i n
case things got too hot i n the department. That is, they
knew the history and I could go back t o them. It was a
standby committee. I never used it, and that was one of
the g r e a t a s s e t s of m
y administration. The f a c t t h a t I
didn't have t o use i t while chairman seemed to Sproul
p r e t t y good evidence t h a t I was doing a l l right.
Riess: When might you have turned to i t ?
Pepper: I would have turned t o them f o r adjudication. Later I ' l l
t e l l you about the key case. It was on an unimportant
issue, but i t was one I would hsve carried t o them i f i t
hadn't been s e t t l e d by Sproul i n my favor. That was where
m
y f u r i s d i c t i o n was being threatened by Heuhaus. After
that was s e t t l e d by Sproul, Neuhaus never threatened again,
he saw he had lost. [see p. 221 ] I n other words, m
y posi-
tion was established, but Meuhaus was trying it out. But
if I hddn't got an answer s a t i s f a c t o r y for m
e I would have
become useless because t h i s was a deliberate attempt t o go
over m
y authority, you see. So I would have d i r e c t l y
appealed to t h a t oommittee, but I didn't have to, Sproul
saw the point.
Modern A r t Becomes More Acceptable
Riess: I was wondering how the art comnuni ty, outside of the Uni-
versity, made i t s e l f f e l t and heard throughout a l l of thie.
Pepper: I think t h i s is the general thing t o say, that throughout
the coun'tr~,and a l i t t l e belatedly here -- though n o t too
belatedly, f o r t h i s is one of the advance posts of art i n
pepper: America and has been f o r many years -- t h e acceptance of
modern art vas becoming more and more obvious. It vas a
gradual thing, and the t r a n s i t i o n was taking place j u s t
then.
Wow, t h a t is v i t a l here because one of the dements
of the issue between Neuhaus and Ryder was the modern art
issue, Ryder maintaining t h a t t h i s w a s not only the coming
thing -- he was more dogmatic than t h a t -- but t h a t "This
was i t l a And t h a t g r e a t art of a l l time had been following
the p l a s t i c values, and t h a t representation and story-
t e l l i n g and s o on were irrelevant and somewhat i l l e g i t i m a t e
i n t e r e s t s . So I think the general statement I'd make here
would be t h a t i n the background of the s i t u a t i o n Worth's
daims were g e t t i n g progressively confirmed. When t h i s went
over the t h r e s h o l d I don't know, i t ' d be hard t o t e l l , but
as things developed the department became dynamic oenter
of painting f o r the region. But maybe t h a t should be ,
placed a l i t t l e l a t e r .
One of the t n i r g s that made i t e a s i e r f o r m
e t o support
Worth through a l l t h i s -- of course I had other reasons be-
sides just t h a t he w a s riding the contemporary wave of art
-- was t h a t progressively h i s school of art w a s being con-
firmed as the r e a l s t u f f . It had been thought crazy and
Eugen took every advantage he could out of t h a t attitude.
But he got, you see, disconfirmed. And as he s a w t h a t the
swing w a s going against him, Eugen became l e s s and l e s s
v i t r i o l i c about i t and even began t o do some 8 o r t of ab-
s t r a c t painting of hits own, which was not very good. He
is s good impressionist, but he never got the point of
the p l a s t i c stuff. One of the peculiar things was (and I
Pepperr c a l l e d Hildebrand's a t t e n t i o n t o i t ) t h a t the chemists and
others around about them (who were my g r e a t problem through-
l
out the struggle, and the center of trouble outside the
department) thought t h a t t h i s indicated how broadminded
Bleuhaus was. I t showed t h a t he could recognize the merits
of a new movement. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Hildebrand and h i s group
seemed t o have forgotten a l l the ugly things Neuhaus had
s a i d against the movement!
So a s far as the art co~munitywas concerned, i t w a s
progressively supporting Worth's side. And t h i s was a
l i t t l e t r a g i c f o r Eugen, and I would have f e l t r e a l l y
sorry f o r him if I hadn't f e l t s o b i t t e r about h i s methods
of fighting, because ,I can imagine what i t means t o have
your i d e a l s of art and your type of art gradually going
out of appreciation.
Riess: Maybe t h a t ' s why he beaame i n t e r e s t e d i n art history.
Pepper: Oh, I ' m coming t o that. There's another reason f o r that.
[~ a u g h t e r ]
Riess: S h a l l we g e t back t o our chronology? You came back i n
- 1934 and a l l these changes had been effeated.
Pepper: The period between 1934 and 1938 i a an i n t e r e s t i n g one. I t
became p r e t t y obvious t h a t Eugen was n o t going t o make any
headway i n the disparagement of modern art i n g e t t i n g r i d
of what you might call Worth's w s a t e l l i t e s . w I don't think
he ever hoped t o g e t r i d of Worth, since he was too deeply
established. But I think he c e r t a i n l y had i n mind g e t t i n g
Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper':
r i d of Boynton and possibly Haley and p a r t i c u l a r l y H i s s
Peterson. She seemed t o h i n a n easy thing t o g e t r i d of.
I n f a c t , she was almost scheduled t o go out when I was
made chairaan, s o in a c e r t a i n way I saved her neck, and
probably Boynton's too.
Did Neuhaus have Perry under h i s wing?
No, Perry never g o t under anybody's wing. Perry kept very
n e u t r a l and very d i s t a n t and he simply carried on the man-
ipulation of the department, t h a t is the regular o f f i c e
work, making out budgets. He never took a s i d e on anything,
as f a r as I know, and a f t e r the dismissal of Mrs. Simpson
and the adding of Rosamund Stanley I don't think any change
was made i n the department u n t i l I came in. Walter Horn
was appointed, not through me, but that was the only change
t h a t would have come under h i s administration, and t h a t was
hardly under h i s because --
Well, then how was Neuhaus going t o g e t Boynton and Peter-
son moved out?
He had Hildebrand. When I got back Ryder's cause was a t a
r a t h e r low ebb, and very quickly i t got to its lowest ebb,
and Worth c e r t a i n l y didn't help it. He's not a born poli-
tician. He's too d i r e c t and honest, I,would say, t o be a
good g o l i tician. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And a l s o h i s case was weak-
ened by the extreme dogmatism f o r the p l a s t i c design move-
ment, which I thought was a l l right then and I s t i l l think
was a l l r i g h t at the time, but i t made h i s position rela-
t i v e l y weaker than a more objective a t t i t u d e would have
done, which was m
y strength i n t h i s whole situation. So,
often I would be making some headway and Worth would do
something t h a t would knock i t higher than a kite.
Peppert Well, i n the committee's workings here, the Hildebrand
committee at that time, things were not going too well for
Worth. Neuhaus's claims were making headway. And t h i n g s
began to come to a head. They had already come t o a head I
guess at the time 1 went to see Sproul, vhich would be the
year before, But wha.t was bringing them to a head vas
Worth's desire and insistence that Boynton should be put
on the regular s t a f f . He was s t i l l i n the position of
lecturer. And a l s o Margaret Peterson. I think t h a t was
the way of it, that was the actual issue before the com-
mittee which Neuhaus was opposing.
A t one time here there was a complaint maae -- I think
Worth voiced i t -- t h a t there were no artists on that com-
mittee. And I rather think I backed i t up, though I don't
think I f e l t too strongly about it. And the solution they
came t o was to put both Worth and Eugen on the committee,
which really was quite a circus. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And i n t h i s
period Worth did a very foolish thing which marked the low
,
ebb of h i s influence there; he came i n -- t h i s was after
he was added to the cormnittee, and of course N e u u was
there -- he came i n with a document signed by 911 the
members except Nahl and lieuhaus and Washburn.
I vonder if l a h l had died then, because I think,,,
[perham Nahl died ca. 19351 How Washburn didn't count
then, but I think t h a t there were only two t h a t did not
sign i t , apart from Washburn, and I think they were Eugen
and Miss Stanley. Nahl's death, incidentally, may have
quite well been another departmental f a t a l i t y .
Riessr Like Wickaon?
Pepper: 	 Like Wickson. The cause of i t w a s r a t h e r peculiar. With
a l l the discussions t h a t were coming up, Eugen w a s ques-
tioning the standing of the artists i n the department and
making q u i t e a l o t of i t . Jack Loewenberg came t o me v i t h
t h i s t a l k m d I said t h i s is p e r f e c t l y ridiculaus, This
i s an unusually f i n e departaent. The trouble with i t is
not i n its personnel but i n the p e r s m a l r e l a t i o n s among
the personnel, And I praised everybody highly, including
Nahl. And somehow o r other, I don't know how i t was, Nahl
had got the impression t h a t I had the sane a t t i t u d e towards
him that Worth did. I suppose i t was possible. But I had
always admired his draftsmanship.
Riess: 	 Worth had no use f o r it?
Pepperr 	 Worth hnd no use f o r i t a t all. Nahl was a typical academic
draftsman, i n h i s terms, which was half t r u e * But the
t y p i c a l acadeaic draftsman, i f he was excellent, was some-
thing very f i n e , and Nahl was* He was a b e a u t i f u l d r a f t s -
mdn. And I praised Nahl very highly and t h i s went back t o
I
t h e cornnittee and went to Nahl and apparently surprised
him very much. You s e e , i t made him completely uncertain
about h i s r e l a t i o n with everybody. He was q u i t e c o r r e c t
about Worth. H i s a l l y i n g himself with Eugen so strongly,
however, and against me, now was shattered, you see. It
was very s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t , i n a period of depression,
t h a t he stepped out i n t o the s t r e e t r i g h t i n f r o n t of a
car. Now, probably not on purpose, but i t would be care-
l e s s , and i t might be unconsciously on purpose. I t k i l l e d
him. So, I think Wahl had die6 alreedy when t h i s incident
i n the committee happened.
Pepper: But Worth came i n with a s o r t of pet1tion, memorandum,
report, whatever you want t o c a l l it, t o the committee,
signed by everybody but two members of the department o t h e r
than Washburn, requesting t h a t the next chairman be an
artist. They were hunting now f o r a new chairman because
Perry d i d n ' t want t h i s job, i t was an interim job. So the
g e t t i n g of a new chairman was the next item of business;
t h i s committee had t h a t job t o do. They were discussing
the kind of person i t should be. I think the h i s t o r i a n
business had j u s t begun t o come in. ~ n d
Worth's document
s a i d t h a t "the department, the art department, requests
t h a t thechairman should be an artist and should be v i r t u a l l y
s e l e c t e d by them. I t was s t a t e d i n very strong terms.
O f course, Eugen g o t hot under the c o l l a r , and Worth
g o t hot, and Eugen s a i d , "This is not true, I never signed
it." I t was, strangely enough, not technically true, but
the g r e a t majority of the department was f o r i t . Worth had
s t r e n g t h enough, i f he'd j u s t been correct. But what par-
t i c u l a r l y incensed the commi'ttee was the bravado of Worth's
a t t a c k and suggestion.
This i s the kind of thing Worth would sometimes do,
and r e a l l y i t made i t hard t o f i g h t h i s b a t t l e s . Loewenberg
who was a good f r i e n d of mine throughout a l l t h i s , came
out, and he was j u s t i n a fury a f t e r t h i s meeting, and
he saw m
e and he s a i d , "Wovth's a fool. Worth's J u s t
simply a fool." [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Riess: People wanted t o agree with Worth, but couldn't go along
with h i s methods?
Peppert Well, they were genuinely i n doubt. Hers was a eommit t e e ,
none of whom had any acquaintance with the background of
pepper: 	 v i s u a l arts, o r of arts generally, as far as t h a t goes.
Linforth w a s no longer on it. It was a committee made up
as honestly as one could be, but they d i d n ' t know the
issues. And furthermore neither d i d the country know what
the eolutions were; i t was J u s t a t the time when a s o l u t i o n
was i n process. So t h a t there were genuine reasons f o r
t h e i r doubt. Well, Worth was a t a low position then; t h a t
was the nadir.
History 	of Art Courses
Riessr 	 I noticed t h a t eome h i s t o r y of art had been taught by
Washburn and Neuhaus and Ryder.
Pepper: 	 Yes, but you s e e there was no a c t u a l h i s t o r y of art man,
with the dubious exception of Neuhaus and Washburn. Wash-
burn was an archaeologist r a t h e r than a h i s t o r y of art man.
And Eugen had never had regular h i s t o r y of art training.
He was an artist who had done a t least one q u i t e respecta-
b l e general survey on American art which could count as a
t
h i s t o r y book.+ And as y o u ' l l see a l i t t l e l a t e r , when we
got i n t o the issues, he used t h i s as a fulcrum f o r a turn
t h a t he thought he could bring about i n the department t o
h i s advaatage when the issues came down hard.
And Ryder, l i k e Neuhaus, knew a l o t of history, but
he was n o t a regularly taught h i s t o r y of art man either.
And i n f&t one of the d i f f i c u l t i e s with Worth was that,
l i k e most artists, he had a deep suspicion of art histor-
ians, p a r t i c u l a r l y a t t h a t time. There was considerable
u 

The History and Ideals of American A r t by Eugen Neuhaus,
Stanford University Press, Stanford University, California,
1931,
i Pepper:
j*
!
Ii
j u s t i f i c a t i o n f o r i t becauae the art h i s t o r i a n s were j u s t
p e r f e c t l y nasty t o artists, [ ~ a u g h t e r ] And t h i s a l s o
w a s a b i g i s s u e i n which I became deeply involved within
the College A r t Association, a f t e r I became chairman of
the a r t department here. For then I had t o f i g h t against
the h i s t o r i a n s f o r the case of the p r a c t i c i n g artists,
But wefr e g e t t i n g a l i t t l e ahead of things. The
anomaly or" the s i t u a t i o n was t h a t having established the
artists e s p e c i a l l y as chairman i n the departmen%, I then
fought the artists i n the i n t e r e s t of h i s t o r i a n s , r e a l
genuine h i s t o r i m s , and Walter Horn was the first one we
got. And another anomaly of t h i s thing i s t h a t Walter
Horn was brought here on the recomnendation of Worth Ryder,
who temperamentally hated historians. The whole thing is
j u s t f u l l of very curious anomalies,
Ryder had been on sabbatical. The a r t h i s t o r i a n issue
had come up. And one of the wieest things t h a t Ryder ever
did was t o look around f o r h i s t o r i a n s while he was on sab-
I
b a t i c a l , and he met Walter and l i k e d him, s o t h a t h i s
appointment went through very e a s i l y because f o r Neuhaus
here was another countryman, and he'd been urging his-
t o r i a n s e a r l i e r , so t h a t s u i t e d him, and t h i s was Ryder's
own suggestion so i t a l s o s u i t e d him. So the h i s t o r y of
art s t a r t e d very beautifully j u s t the very year t h a t I
came i n as chairman. That was a s i g n i f i c a n t point because
i t made i t possible t o develop the program I had i n mind
with maximum speed.
Now, there were two o r three things t h a t happened
simultaneously, but w
e have t o t a l k about them consecu-
tively. Wnen I g o t back and s a w that Eugen w a s beginning
Pepper: 	 t o p a i n t a b s t r a c t s and had l a i d o f f on the craziness of
t h i s new school, I began t o think t o myself, what w i l l be
h i s next line of a t t a c k ? And I predicted it would be t h a t
the department should be a purely h i s t o r y of art department.
This was the up-to-date way of developing art departments,
as shown i n the g r e a t u n i v e r s i t i e s of the East where there
were only h i s t o r y of art departments, and t o have prqctice
departments was a mistake.
Sure enough. Sure enough. I warned Worth of i t and
I s a i d , "Now, do keep q u i e t on the h i s t o r y of art i s s u e
because there are some legitimate aspects t o it. Don't
say it's i l l e g i t i m s t e . Don't be the opposition of history,
because y o u ' l l f i n d yourself in a weak spot." But t h i s ad-
v i c e d i d n ' t seem t o take e f f e c t , except perhaps i n the f u m y
way of h i s l a t e r g e t t i n g Horn, s o maybe i t did take e f f e c t ,
but not at the time.
Then one began t o hear t h a t the kind of chairman t h a t
as p a r t i c u l a r l y needed was a c e r t a i n s o r t of man with a
strong h i s t o r i c a l t r a i n i n g and, as i t happened, Alfred
Neumeyer had been brought, as a f u g i t i v e , t o Mills, And
the funny thing -is t h a t the q u a l i f i c a t i o n s f o r a chairman
of the department seemed exactly t o f i t Neumeyer. And f o r
a b r i e f period here -- I don't know how much he knew -- he
was very much of a n issue. He was i n v i t e d here t o give a
t a l k , which was a very good one. He was a well-trained
art h i s t o r i a n , If, however, he had been made chairman,
I ' m s u r e i t would have been the end of the artists, other
than Eugen, which would s u i t Eugen very nicely.
But t h a t absolutely could not be, from m
y point of
view, and Worth saw what was looming. I was placed i n the
very peculiar position, because I thought h i s t o r y of art was
peppert 	 important, of having t o oppose the introduction of h i s t o r y
of art a t t h a t time. And Eugen was making a l o t of h i s
baing an h i s t o r i a n then, f o r which he had minor claims,
And the committee was swinging very strongly t h a t way, And
I r e a l l y began t o g e t p r e t t y desperate, It's amazing how
deeply m
y heart was i n t h i s thing, but i t was a l l right.
I wanted i t t o be a g r e a t department.
Riess: 	 The artists would have been just put r i g h t off the campus?
Pepper: 	 I think Worth was the only man with tenure, and I don1t
know as even he had tenure. They could possibly have
dismissed the whole bunch.
The Arts 	Club
Pepper: 	 N
o
w comes t h i s other thing which was happening simultane-
ously. I wanted support, not only support i n weight of men
and influence, but f o r m
y ideas. I had got a l i t t l e shaken.
So I s t a r t e d the A r t s Club. Worth and I met i n h i s house
t
one day about 1934 o r so. And he thought i t was a good
idea, t o g e t together a group from the various arts and
some from outside the arts i n the University, f o r the
discussion of policy. And I d e f i n i t e l y had two ideas i n
mind, One was to have a wider range of opinion on policy
than I ' d had access t o before, because r e a l l y about the
only men who knew about o r were interested i n policy i n m
y
acquaintance here and operating on Adams's committee e a r l i e r ,
you see, were myself and Worth and Eugen -- s o f a r as he
was not altogether unhelpful -- and t h a t was about it.
Riess: 	 How about Popper?
Pepper? 	 No, Popper had no ideas of t h a t kind. The only way i n which
Popper came i n was i n the Greek Theater business, but he
never entered i n t o any of the art Issues. He would f e e l
t h a t t h e chemists were really sound people t o t r u s t .
Now, f o r t h i s A r t s Club we first chose about a dozen
men. And I did have i n mind that t h i s group would be helpful
i n the b a t t l e about Eugen. This waa n o t intended t o be
n e u t r a l ; i t was p a r t l y f o r pover and p a r t l y f o r background.
The curious thing is t h a t I don' t think I had a s i n g l e
refusal among the e a r l y men t h a t I talked to, and these
were p r a c t i c a l l y a l l m
y choices. This was a l l my idea.
Ye broueht together some men i n t o a group whom these same
men as a group would never have elected. In f a c t , i t g o t
j u s t simply awful t o be abJe t o get anybody i n t o the olub
f o r y e a r s a f t e r that.
The first meeting was April 24, 1935. 1 must have
been thinkingabout i t i n l a t e 1934. The e a r l y men i n i t
[looking at note-book made at the time] -- t h i s is in al-
phabetical orders Wilder Bentley, who was a p r i n t e r , n o t
i n the University; Hay Boynton; Bronsoc of the English
department; C a l d w e l l of English; Cline of English; Charles
Cushing of music; Albert Elkus of music; G.C. Evans of
mathematics; Everett Glass, n o t of the University but a
dramatics man vho was q u i t e prominent; John Haley, art;
Williams Hays, a r c h i t e c t ; Loewenberg, philosophy; Gordon
McKenzie of English; Howard Moise, a r c h i t e c t ; myself,
philosophy; Warren Perry, a r c h i t e c t ; Worth Ryder, painter;
L e s l i e Simpson, Spanish l i t e r a t u r e ; Edward Strong, philos-
ophy; and Mathurin Dondo, French. Dondo would never, never
have been accepted by the club l a t e r . He was one of the
! Pepper: 	 most dynamic men t h a t was there. He was a mystic, never
would take anything f o r granted, with very s e n s i t i v e and
acute t a s t e i n art as well as l i t e r a t u r e . Then i n 1936
we brought i n Edward Brewer from German and Donald Mackay
from philosophy. And t h a t was the o r i g i n a l group. And
none of these men turned i t down.
W
e met, and i n the e a r l y s t a g e s we did discuss problems
of policy. Elkus at about t h i s time drew up a very keen
statement of policy f o r the music department, which was
f o u r points. I think the a c t i v i t i e s of the A r t s Club
had a good d e a l t o do with maturing h i s thoughts here.
I guess i t was 1937 he brought i t up because he w a s the
chairman of the music department when i t happened.
The reason t h i s s t i c k s i n my mind is because Eugen
heard about i t -- i n f a c t , I guess he heard us discussing
i t at the t a b l e i n the Faculty Club -- and then he brought
i t i n t o the Hildebrand comnittee -- t h i s w
a
s before I was
chairman of art -- as a comparable plan f o r the art depart-
ment, as h i s own, a corresponding four-point program f o r
art. Worth, however, knew the whole s t o r y of t h i s and he
accused him o f , s o t o speak, hijacking i t , when he brought
i t before the committee. Well [laughing], i t was j u s t a
c i r c u s , of course. I backed up Worth on t h i s and I talked
t o Hildebrand because I thought i t was funny, but Hildebrand's
reaction was, why, i t j u s t shows how i n t e l l i g e n t Eugen is --
g r e a t minds speak i n the same way. [Laughing) You j u s t
couldn't win.
The Arts Club did have some e f f e c t because of its
organization and because of one other thing t h a t happened
about the same time, and that was the counter-revolution I
Pepper: spoke of i n which we threw out the oligarchs, I t wasn't
so much t h a t we threw out the oligarchs as t h a t we threw
them out as the only r u l e r s and g o t i n a good proportion
of younger men, That I must check up on,
Riess: What was the Elkus four-point program?
Pepper: I think i t was t h a t t h e music department was f o r the devel-
opment of t a s t e i n undergraduates; the development of crea-
t i v e powers of composition among students -- t h a t woulcl
correspond t o p r a c t i c e courses; a development of theory
and history; and, four, should provide f o r the t r a i n i n g
Of teachers of music i n schools. That comes very c l o s e
t o the kind of thing t h a t I was developing l a t e r , and
t h i s was being discussed i n the Arts Club, This was a
maturing program t h a t was coming along.
Riess: I n the Arts Club you were s t a r t i n g t o form-your ideas?
O r had you formed them?
Pepper: Oh, it was r a t h e r t h a t I was checking up on them, and how
could I t e l l ? I don't know. It's one thing t o kind of
think these things up theoretically-and another thing t o
be given the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of t h e department t o put them
i n t o e f f e c t , A l l kinds of d e t a i l developed then. And i n
the a c t u a l carrying-out of i t changes were made, s o t h a t
the form the department took was p e r t l y from theory and
p a r t l y from the application of i t and experience, This
w a s an important element here, bred of a kind of despair.*
Rearrangement of Power i n the Academic Senate
Pepper: The other element was t h a t I began t o see t h a t I was not
making much headway. When Adams and Loewenberg began t o
*For more comment on the Arts Club, see p. 350
Pepper: 	 t a l k about the department becoming a h i story department,
then I f e l t my last support was gone, and r e a l l y t h i s was
g e t t i n g kind of outrageous.
I was d i s s a t i s f i e d with these older men running the
budget and educational policy and the Committee on Committees
and making i t j u s t hopeless f o r any new ideas t o come up
through. There was nobody I could appeal to here, and
there were plenty of younger people on the campus who seemed
t o be interested, but they would have no place on committees,
I complained about t h i s t o Louderback, o r Popper o r
Hildebrand -- Hildebrand was now accepted as one of the
l i t t l e group a l l r i g h t , though he had not been one of t h e
e a r l y revolutionaries; he was too young t o be very e f f e c t i v e
then, but he was one of the few somewhat younger men t h a t
were introduced here. The other men were g e t t i n g on i n t o
t h e i r f i f t i e s and s i x t i e s while there were l o t s of young
fellows around t h a t were no longer babies, though they had
been when the revolution occurred. I could see the a t t i t u d e
o'f these older fellows. They had put the campus on its
f e e t and they didn't want t o see anything lost. They
didn8t know what a l o t of young men might do, and s o they
played very, very conservatively. They didn't Intend t o
c u t them out, but i n a c t u a l i t y they did.
So I w a s d i s s a t i s f i e d , and I began t o f e e l around,
and I discovered t h a t there was a g r e a t deal of dissatis-
faction i n p o l i t i c a l science and economics. The first man
I talked t o was Chuck Aikin, This, w
e thought, was a r a t h e r
dangerous thing t o t a l k about -- which, by the way, shows
t h a t i t w a s not a healthy s t a t e of University morale -- and
i n order not D
o be seen or overheard discussing reformation
Pepper: 	 matters we went down t o the Pied Piper, which was a l i t t l e
restaurant upstairs an Shattuck Avenue to which business
people on the Avenue went, but very r a r e l y University
people, and took a s i d e table and discussed the situation.
And that was the beginning of the revolution, W
e combined
the names of men that w
e thought would be interested and
useful and t h a t was the beginning of a number of meetings
a t my house. The first group were theser Aikin, p o l i t i c a l
science; Hughes from English; Sauer from geography -- I
discovered Sauer was dissatisfied, but he was hardly a
younger man.
Riess: 	 How do you discover a d i s s a t i s f i e d man?
Pepper: 	 You can just -- it's funny how you sense it, How does a
boy o r g i r l know t h a t a g i r l o r a boy is looking around?
That sort of thing.
Riess: 	 X t would be over lunch tables and things l i k e that?
Pepper; Yes, and something ,f;hrown i n here, somethingthere. You t r y
out a l i t t l e f e e l e r and it's respondsd to, t h a t s o r t of
thing. It's not d i f f i c u l t , somehow. Whipple i n English,
Calkins in eoonomics, who I think was chairman of economics
a t that time which just shows how economics g o t l e f t out.
Thompson i n speech, Simpson i n Spanish, Tryon i n psychology,
and just a t r i f l e l a t e r , Kidd i n law. That was a big get.
You see, we were keeping out of the soientists. We had no
f a i t h ' i n physicists or chemiats.
Well, t h i s group met and began t o work up ideas. W
e
thought i t was going t o be very, very d i f f i c u l t t o upset
t h i s highly organized, or highly interrelated, group of
oligarchs who a l l played with each other, and l e t every-
body know what everybody e l s e thought, that they would put
Pepper: up a very strong resistance, W
e thought t h a t the thing t o
do would be t o see i f we could g e t one o r two of our men
on the Committee on Committees, and they were t o play very
softly. Before we made up our f i n a l decision here as t o
j u s t what we would do, we brought i n three s c i e n t i s t s ,
youngsters, Jenkins i n physics; Eastman, who was a chemist
of about Jenkins1 age -- he died very young a d was an
a b l e chemist; and Charles Camp i n paleontology, So that
when the f i n a l decisions were made t h a t was the group,
We decided now we'd j u s t kind of feel things out, see
what our power might be, m d we wouldn't put i n our b e s t
men -- t h a t is, we'd put i n our second s t r i n g so t h a t if
he were badly beaten i t wouldn't s p o i l us a t all. To put
up a badly-beaten man a second time would be bad policy,
you see, So w
e put up Whipple, H
e was p e r f e c t l y w i l l i n g
t o be second s t r i n g , he didn't regard himself as a p o l i t i -
cian st a l l [laughing], which turned out t o be the case.
by a kind of accident, Sauer g o t put up, too, but Whipple
-
'was the one we were aiming t o g e t in. Sauer was one of
, our good men.
- But then when w
e were beginning t o r e a l l y get a c t i v e
here w
e discovered t h a t there were other a c t i v e areas.
Rice i n education was heading a t i c k e t out by himself t o
g e t somebody on the Conunittee on Committees, And then
t h e Medical School was d i s s a t i s f i e d -- Schmidt, who by
the way has become r a t h e r important since, had s t a r t e d
up a group over there, So t h a t we were only one of three
groups, though f think we were t h e most aggressive.
Well, we compared notes and found t h a t we had more
power than we thought, but we didn't know what i t was, and
pepper: some of the others thought t h a t they'd l i k e t o put up Sauer.
Sauer and Whipple were put in, not by much of a majority,
but they were put i n , g r e a t l y to our surprise. I t seemed
t o be t h a t easy, with the help of the education and the
Medical School people, which would make the oligarchs wild
because one of the things they accused these schools of was
t h a t when they had any item up they would pack the Academic
Senate with t h e i r men. Well, why shouldn't they? [ ~ a u ~ h -
t e r ] But t h a t was wicked! There was a c e r t a i n amount of
packing, you see, from education and the Medical School,
and w
e g o t these two men in.
Two nore d i f f e r e n t men could not be imagined. They
were j u s t opposites. Whipple was s e n s i t i v e , extremely
deuocratic, found g r e a t d i f f i c u l t y i n making decisions,
Sauer, on t h e other hand, was the most a u t o c r a t i c man of
the bunch. I n f a c t , he ran h i s department l i k e a d i c t a t o r .
He didn't belong there with t h i s bunch of ours, except
t h a t he was d i s s a t i s f i e d with not having some influence,
But he proved t o be n o t d i c t a t o r i a l a t a l l i n our area.
But on the Committee on Committees, w
e began t o have t h e
queerest repercussions, Whipple was no man t o be on t h a t
comaittee; he d i d n ' t know the people. W
e hadn't chosen
him f o r t h a t reason. A 6 o m i t t e e on Committees man is
supposed t o have a wide acquaintance i n the faculty, and
he didn't, He didn't understand the mechanism of the Uni-
versity. H
e was a child. Sauer, however, was no child,
and did we know t h a t he was the most a u t o c r a t i c kind of
son of a -- beast? [ ~ a u g h i n ~ ]
Well, we got a l l of these
kick-backs, but nevertheless, we had shaken the hierarchy.
Then next year -- now w
e knew w e had power and we
came out i n the open, There followed an open b a t t l e . We
I
Pepper: made up our own list. Strangely enough, Hutchison, the
present mayor, though head of the College of Agriculture,
was not i n the oligarchy. W
e regarded him as a very f i n e
man, s o t h a t we were f o r him. Well, the e l e c t i o n of 1936
or 1937 was r e a l l y the i n t e r e s t i n g one and s e t t l e d the
oligarchy. They wanted m
e t o go up and I s a i d , "No," I ' d
been too much i n the center of t h i s thing, I d i d n ' t want
t o be a candidate. But we put up Whipple and Sauer and
Hutchison on our list and conferred with Rice and Schmidt,
By t h i s time there were some others, too.
This having of lists w
a
s regarded as very wicked by
the oligarchy, though they never t h e l e s s had t h e i r informal
l i s t before. Now they did have a formal list. Louderback
came down t o me and s a i d , "1 suppose you have a list.
ttYes.
nWell, I ' d l i k e t o see i t e n
I s a i d , "Sure, I Id love t o have you s e e the list. Let
me have yours.
Well, he disappeared and he never turned up again.
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
W
e had a p r e t t y good idea what t h e i r list was.
Now, the curious thing was t h a t Whipple, Hutchison,
and Sauer were put on with a good b i g majority r e a l l y early.
Schmidt, Louderback, and Hildebrand g o t on. There were
two men t h a t d i d n ' t have enough votes. Somebody, j u s t
before the votes were closed, nominated me. I looked
around t o see who i t was; i t was Norman Hinds. Hinds was
a geologist and a lower f i g u r e i n the hierarchy, and I
figured out, "My gosh, I guess they a r e s o r t of apple-
polishing me. Well, t h a t ' s a l l r i g h t . " The peculiar
r e s u l t of i t was t h a t I was elected, very high, as a
matter of f a c t i t was on the second vote, So there I was,
Pepper: n o t having been -- well, of course m
y own group voted f o r
me when I was out. But I had m
y experience on the Comit-
t e e on Committees, and as I say t h a t was t h e end of the
s o l i d r u l e of the oligarchy.
Popper, incidentally, t o our g r e a t pleasure -- although
I'm a f r a i d somewhat malicious pleasure -- g o t the lowest of
a l l votes of anybody who was a candidate. That meant t h a t
the old guard were r e a l l y through. Louderback was e l e c t e d
chairman of the Committee on Committees, and he handled i t
with g r e a t t a c t and decorum, leaned over backwards t o see
t h a t the young fellows ve wanted t o g e t i n committees got
i n . And t h a t was the end of that.
Now, these two things a r e important, because a change
of a t t i t u d e took place i n the Hildebrand committee. By
the way, a f t e r I was elected a t t h i s meeting, Hildebrand
came over t o me and put h i s arm around m
y shoulders and
s a i d , "Well, Pepper, now you're i n and your enemies w i l l
begin t o appear. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
Hefs a nice fellow.
This should be i r r e l e v a n t , but i t wasn't: t h a t is,
the power of the youngsters shook the committee, s o t h a t
w h a t I was saying had much more weight. They ceased t o go
d i r e c t l y out f o r an h i s t o r i a n and d e f i n i t e l y ceased t o con-
s i d e r Alfred Neumeyer as & candidate. (By t h i s time I
think Neumeyer would have f e l t indebted t o Neuhaus, which
would n o t have pleased us very much.) Deutsch, by t h e way,
was backing Neumeyer very strongly. I was i n a bad way
there, with Deutsch a g a i n s t these aims of mine. He was next
t o Sproul and he was a humanist, s o t h a t Deutsch's i n t e r e s t
i n Neumeyer wassomething r e a l l y t o be scared of i f you did
not want Neumeyer in. Sproul on the whole kept out of t h i s .
. ,
pepper:
I
I
'1
t.
I Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

As I said, i n t h a t meeting of the departmental members t h a t
l e d t o Linforth and Hildebrandts committee, the delegation
of people i n art, he had Deutsch i n there, so i t was appar-
e n t t h a t he was leaving i t t o Deutsch as far as possible.
New Chairman Sought
I think the next p o i n t is a very i n t e r e s t i n g one. The time
would be about 1937. I was going E a s t f o r some meeting or
other a t Christmastime, which w a s the long vacation time
(we had a month then, i t was a wonderful calendar we l a t e r
gave up), and Hildebrand's committee authorized me t o make
contacts and have conferences with men a l l over the East,
with expenses paid where necessary, i n regard t o a possible
department chairman.
Did you want t o be department chairman?
No. The question of wanting never entered my head, because
I ' d been too involved a t t h i s time. I regarded myself as
the last man t o be considered f o r department chairman.
Ryder had wanted you q u i t e a while before.
He'd wanted me long ago, but a t t h a t time I didn't want i t ,
and I thought he was doing such a b e a u t i f u l job t h a t I
wanted him, and t h a t didn't h e l p matters.
Had he given up t h a t idea of g e t t i n g you t o be chairman?
Oh, no. They always wanted me t o be chairman. But I t o l d
Lhem a l l , "That's j u s t ridiculous. The administration and
committee would never make me chairman." But I would sup-
p o r t them as long as I thought t h a t was the proper thing
t o do.
1 pepper:
I
I
I
So the assignment surprised me. I had been kept p r e t t y
well informad of the doings of t h a t c o m ~ i t t e e ,though I
wasnl t on i t , naturally. They gave me a list.
[ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
They had a m a n recommended by Harvard t h a t I was t o see,
and one o r two other names. Well, t h a t eastern t r i p was
vary interesting. The committee was suspicious of the man
t h a t Harvard reoommended, and I very soon saw t h a t they had
good grounds f o r being so. It w a s a man t h a t Harvard wanted
t o g e t r i d of. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Being m
y alma mater, I r e a l l y
f e l t mortified t h a t they would do t h a t s o r t of thing, but
apparently they occasionally did, and I ' m a f r a i d maybe they
occasionally do, So I had no longer any i n t e r e s t i n any-
thing t h a t Harvard people had t o recommend, but I v i s i t e d
Yale.
Yale a t t h a t time had a full-fledged p r a c t i c e art
school, the only one at a big university i n the East. I
had a f i n e chance to s e e from the inside the p o l i c i e s of
these d i f f e r e n t departments, And the head of Yale, he was
a character, a huge man, and b i t t e r as could be a g a i n s t the
h i s t o r i a n s , Princeton and Columbia and Harvard were a l l
h i s t o r y of art departments, and f e l t t h a t p r a c t i c i n g art
had no place there. It was s o r t of the old German tradi-
tion, t h a t t h a t , like a musical conservatory, was something
t o be done outside. But he would have nothing t o do with
h i s t o r i a n s , He gave me, however, one of our very good
names, Thompson, whose f i r s t name I ' v e forgotten, but he
was the brother of Randall Thompson who has become very
prominent i n music and who was here f o r some time and was
one of the outstanding men i n chorale. T h i s was h i s broth-
e r , who was a t t h a t time a t the University of London, q u i t e
Pepper; 	 a position t o be holding f o r a young man. He was g r e a t l y
i n t e r e s t e d i n problems of ancient techniques. He w a s s o r t
of halfway artist and halfway historian, which appealed t o
me very much. I n f a c t , he appealed t o the committee. And
he was, of a l l the men I had heard about, the one t h a t t h i s
committee became most serious with. They offered him the
chairmanship and he, a f t e r some communication, declined.
So t h a t was a r e a l p o s s i b i l i t y .
I a l s o v i s i t e d Columbia, and I v i s i t e d the museum
people i n Chicago. I was very much interested i n a young
fellow, Daniel Catton Rich, i n New York. I think he was
working i n the Frick collection, And there were one or two
o t h e r s whom I saw who I thought looked promising, These
were a l l men i n museum or art areas, and I w a s p a r t i c u l a r l y
concerned i n talking to them with finding out whether they
were opposed t o practice of art.
Well, with t h i s list of names and others the committee
got, there were a couple of years during which they were
trying very hard t o find somebody t o become chairman of
the department. They wanted somebody to c l e a r up the mess,
And then f i n a l l y they were very serious about Munro of
Cleveland, who was a Columbia man, about my age, i n aes-
t h e t i c s , who not much l a t e r s t a r t e d the American Society
f o r Aesthetics and the a e s t h e t i c journal [ ~ a u r n a lof Aes-
t h e t i c s and A r t ~ r i which has become very important.
ticism],
So he was a very good suggestion indeed, and he would
probably have done something along the l i n e s t h a t I did.
But he was g e t t i n g a p r e t t y good s s l a r y a t Cleveland and
intimated t h a t he j u s t couldn't afford t o consider the job
here except f o r a s a l a r y which was a considerable number of
Pepper: thousand d o l l a r s above mine.
Jack Loewenberg then came i n and said, "Now, look.
T h i s would be unfair t o Pepper, who i s at l e a s t as good
an aesthetician as Thomas Munro and who knows as much
about the art s i t u a t i o n as Munro doesStt (And Munro, by
the way, did know a l o t about it. H
e was a r e a l l y good
idea.) That is what brought about serious consideration
of me. So, at t h i s time apparently I was proposed t o
Sproul by the committee, and then Sproul invited me up
t o h i s o f f i c e and s a i d , "How would you l i k e t o be chair-
man of the art department?" [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
Well, I was surprised, and I s a i d , "In a c e r t a i n way
t h a t , I think, would be a solution. But I wouldn't dream
of i t unless I could be r e a l l y e f f e c t i v e there, and t h a t
means t h a t I would want to have a number of conditions
agreed upon. "
And so I went home and wrote out my conditions and
a few days l a t e r came i n w i t h them. They were t h a t I
would have the support of the administration i n v i t a l
issues, which meant p a r t l c u l a r l y In r e ~ a r dto the practice
of art, the Eugen-Worth issue. I n other words, I wanted
t o be sure t h a t I wasn't going t o go i n there and then
they'd be putting Eugen's policies above mine. And the
point t h a t I was making a l l along was t h a t Eugen had h i s
chance and he made a mess of it.
That I would have an o f f i c e i n the building, and
t h a t the building be made over i n such a way t h a t every
a r t i s t has h i s own office. That was important: i t was
an old building, s o i t simply meant putting up p a r t i t i o n s
Pepper: i n rooms. I t made the o f f i c e s r a t h e r small. (BY the way,
I was on t h e committee f o r Dwinelle H a l l and urged them t o
have o f f i c e s a s i z e s o t h a t nobody e l s e uould g e t i n t o them.
But t h e a r c h i t e c t s j u s t couldn't see a n o f f i c e h a l f t h i s
s i z e [ i n d i c a t i n g h i s own o f f i c e ] . These w i l l hold two
people, unfortunately, b u t those l i t t l e art o f f i c e s you
j u s t couldn' t squeeze two people i n t o . )
I wanted t h a t standby committee.
And t n e last request was t h a t my p o l i c i e s wouldn't be
p u t down by o t h e r administrations. That's only only one
t h a t Sproul s a i d he couldn't a g r e e to, and of course he
couldn't. I should have had sense enough t o have known
t h a t . You c a n ' t commit new a d m i n i s t r a t i o n s t o former
administrationS1 p o l i c i e s and decisions.
And I could r e s i g n any time I wanted to, and he could
put me out any time.
Riess: This is d i f f e r e n t i n many ways from o t h e r department chair-
manships?
Pepper: Yes, they had a s p e c i a l arrangement here. Normally, and
t h i s was the r e s u l t of t h e r e v o l u t i o n and I t h i n k i t was
an e x c e l l e n t r e s u l t , normally t h e chairman has a t h r e e t o
f i v e year term, and then he is r o t a t e d by somebody e l s e ,
and supposedly h e ' s done f o r e v e r then. If t h e department's
big enouqh he never has t o do i t again.
Riess: Is i t by e l e c t i o n within t h e department, o r i s It administra-
t i v e l y done?
Pepper: Like a l l these t h i n g s i t s t h e o r e t i c a l l y a d m i n i s t r a t i v e ;
t h a t is, t h i s whole business is advisory t o the p r e s i d e n t ,
i t has no o t h e r s t a t u s whatever.
Riess: You mean the whole Academic Senate's work?
Pepper: Yes. But a c t u a l l y a g r e a t deal of power l i e s w i t h the Senate
and its comnfttees. The formal scheme of organization of
American Universities i s a uniform business corporation
s t r u c t u r e r i g h t across the continent and i t ' s a kind of
indictment of t h e u n i v e r s i t i e s t h a t t h i s should be the
case. You have t o explain t o foreigners t h a t they mustn't
take t h i s s t r u c t u r e seriously because i t depends from uni-
v e r s i t y t o university what the a c t u a l power p a t t e r n is.
And i n the University of California, since the revolution,
i n a l l academic matters the f a c u l t y h i ~ svery much more power
than anybody e l s e , because the o.dministration is a p t t o
t r u s t them, and allows them t o carry on.
Riessr More power than f a c u l t y i n other u n i v e r s i t i e s , you mean?
Pepper: No, than any other body i n t h i s University. The promotions
knd the appointments, administration of' courses, every thing
t h a t h a s t o do with the academic s i d e is i n the hands of
the f a c u l t y and recommendations a r e very r a r e l y changed i n
t
any s e r i o u s way by higher administrative officers. The
running of the physical s i d e of the campus, the determina-
t i o n of fees and a l l t h a t , i s outside the f a c u l t y hands.
That's determined, I guess, by the regents -- I don't know
where it's done.
Pepper's Chairmanship, 1938-1952
Peppert I discovered, i n re:-;ding over m
y notes, t h a t Perry had been
very strongly disposed a ~ a i n s t
Worth. I remembered him as
p r e t t y n e u t r a l i n the a f f a i r , and through his a c t u a l
Stephen Pepper, chairman of t h e art
department, i n h i s Spreckels Hall
o f f i c e i n about 1950.
administration I ' m sure he was. But h i s b i a s showed up as
soon as I became chairman, because he was on one of the
committees I had t o work through. I had t o deal with t h e
Budget Oommittee and I had t o deal with the Committee on
Courses, i n the first year.
1'11 first t a l k about the Budget Oommittee. A s soon
as I got i n i n 1938 I put up Worth Hyder and Margaret
Peterson O'Hagan f o r promotion, and I probably had some
r a i s e s f o r some others. I a l s o put i n some requests f o r
materials, s o t h a t there was q u i t e a heavy budget. I
discovered t h a t the last thing t h a t somebody had done
before I came i n vas t o promote Ieuhaus [laughter] so
t h a t t h a t made i t imperative t h a t Worth should go up.
And I put i n a very strong plea f o r him an the very grounds
t h a t he would have been opposed on: t h a t is, t h z t he had
had the courage t o oppose the f a c u l t y and strong influences
i n the department f o r the i n t e g r i t y of the department i n
ways t h a t I thought were -
constructive and had been working.
A s i t happened, I guess i t was the year before t h a t I
was on the Cornittee on Committees and wzs instrumental i n
seeing t h a t W i l l Dennes was chairman of the Budget Committee,
and c e r t a i n l y t h a t p a i d back, because I got a note from W i l l
s a ~ r i n gt h a t the s t a t e bud.yet increase amounted t o something
around 10 $,and what I was asking f o r was something around
a 23 5 increase, and he wanted m
e t o know t h a t he thought
i t was j u s t i f i e d , but t h a t the conunittee was not a t a l l
c l e a r about i t , and some of ti~eruwere especially i n doubt
about the grour,ds f o r Worth's promotion, believing him to
be n trouble-mker, and a l s o not a good painter.
Riess: 	 D i d the Budget Committee have any o t h e r of your men on
i t besides Dennes?
Pepper: 	 In a c e r t a i n way, yes. Perry was on i t , and he would n o t
be a b i t i n the hierarchy. W i l l Dennes was chairman, a
very young man then comparatively, and he would have been
a new element put i n , and as chairman i t was important.
So I g o t t h i s l e t t e r from W i l l so t o speak warning
m
e t h a t I would have t o defend myself. And Perry came t o
s e e me, and somebody e l s e , Lowie. (And by the way, Lowie
was very much of our crowd because he was a very c l o s e
friend of Sauer. Lowie was one of our very g r e a t men here.
That was a g r e a t anthropology department by v i r t u e of two
men, Lowie and Kroeber.) Lowie had r e a l l y no i n t e r e s t i n
the c r e a t i v e arts. H i s a t t i t u d e was t h a t they d i d n ' t
deserve t o be here, t h a t i t was the h i s t o r y t h a t was impor-
tant. But i n s o f a r as t h e r e w a s sense i n i t , he thought
t h a t Neuhaus was s e n s i b l e and Worth w a s n o t . And Perry,
of course, w a s on the i n s i d e of t h i s , ana he was q u i t e ob-
'structive, I discovered i n looking over m
y notes. He was
against Worth and s a i d Worth w a s a troublemaker. So I came
back with, "Of course h e ' s a troublemaker. That's exactly
what h i s function i s here, and it's paid o f f , and he
deserves a promotion more than anybody e l s e i n the depart-
ment, j u s t because he has saved it.'' And i t g o t across,
he g o t h i s promotion. But t h a t r e a l l y was trouble.
New Organization of P r a c t i c e Courses: Artists and Ph.D.s
Pepper: 	 And I had a second trouble i n the Committee on Courses,
again f o r the p r a c t i c e course s t u f f . Here is where I guess
E . , I Pepper:
i
+
1
1 Riesst
! Pepper:
I
i

1
i 

ii
I
I
i
Riess:
Pepper:
C ' Riess:
you 'd b e t t e r g e t the scheme t h a t was developing here. The
o l d t r a d i t i o n a l scheme of a l l o t h e r departments, and i t
c a r r i e d over by analogy t o t h i s one, was a set of courses
t h a t b u i l t up pyramidwise, with lower division courses as
prerequisite t o upper division courses i n various subjects,
s o t h a t they had two years of lower division work and t h i s
prepared them f o r upper division courses, and these were
arranged p a r t l y i n term8 of s u b j e c t and p a r t l y i n terms
of technique, but every course had its own s u b j e c t o r
technique.
Determined by the man teaching i t ?
Determined by what they thought t h e s u b j e c t s should be: a
course i n anatomy, a course i n perspective, a course i n
landscape painting, a course i n f i g u r e painting, and so on,
t h a t kind of thing. Then the men would be d i s t r i b u t e d
among these by what they seemed t o be i n t e r e s t e d in, i f
anything.
Well, t h i s f o r p r a c t i c e courses was u t t e r l y unreal-
istic. If what you're i n t e r e s t e d i n is t h e creative
element i n painting and you want the students who take
these courses t o g e t a sense of t h e c r e a t i v e touch, tvo
things a r e r e q u i s i te, One, t h a t you would have genuinely
c r c a t i v e artists i n the department, and t h a t d i d n ' t
necessarily mean Rembrandts and T i t i t u s , but i t meant
men with a real f e e l and at l e a s t a good l o c a l reputation,
preferably national.
Why was reputation necessary?
To guarantee the q u a l i t y of t h e i r c r e a t i v e work.
It must happen t h a t you have a f i n e teacher i n a man
without a reputation, i n some cases.
Pepper: 	 Not here, but many don't have the reputation, of course.
It would be easy enough t o go t o s t a t e colleges and f i n d
kind of humdrum teachers.
Riess: 	 But you wanted reputations.
Pepper: What we looked f o r was the c r e a t i v e business, and as a
matter of f a c t , they did have the reputation. I n our minds
I think t h a t was secondary, but t h i s was something we put
up i n the plan as a s u b s t i t u t e f o r degrees. And t h i s l e d
t o another point, t h a t i f you want r e a l c r e a t i v e p a i n t e r s
you're n o t going t o require any degrees of them, any, not
even an A.B. But c e r t a i n l y not a Ph.D., because any
p a i n t e r who would s t o p t o go out and g e t a Ph.D. shows
r i g h t there t h a t he's not r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e d i n c r e a t i v e
work.
If you begin t o think about i t , t h i s was one of the
matters on which Lester Longman and I l e d an a t t a c k on a
strong trend i n the country, p a r t i c u l a r l y i n the Middle
West. The administrators of s t a t e colleges, p a r t i c u l a r l y
where the p r a c t i c e of art was going on, but administrators,
anyway, who had no confidence, q u i t e properly,in t h e i r own
judgment, liked t o have a degree attached t o a man as a
guarantee.
I n order t o short-circuit t h i s we had t o use a p r e t t y
heavy hand i n making i t disgraceful f o r a college t o make
t h i s a requirement. "It j u s t shows t h a t the college has an
i n f e r i o r i t y oomplex and is unable, o r unwilling, t o go t o
the trouble of finding out what competent men are." This
was our a t t a c k , and t h e l o g i c of i t was this: i f you're
going t o give a Ph.D. degree (M.A.s d i d n ' t make much dif-
ference, they a r e a l l r i g h t ) you've g o t t o have a s e t of
Pepper: 	 requirements t h a t is severe and rigorous, comparable to
Ph.D, requirements i n the r e s t of the university, as i n ,
say, h i s t o r y of art. Now, who would s e t up these require-
ments f o r c r e a t i v e work, snd what would they be? Inevita-
bly they would be the group r i d i n g on the top of the wave
a t the moment. And there is no f i n e r way of making a dead
academism than t o i n s i s t upon these reqairements f o r
teachers of art. That's the argument t h a t clinched the
thing, and t h a t ' s what Longman and I were preaching.
Riess: 	 Who is Longman?
Pepper: He w a s head of the department of a r t at the University of
Iowa.* He may have had a higher position, something l i k e
dean perhaps. He d i d a magnificent job there a t consider-
a b l e c o s t t o himself, I n c i d e n t a l l y , he was h i s t o r y
trained. So t h a t he was an apostate with regard t o t h e
h i s t o r i a n s , and they hated him. H
e was e d i t o r of t h e i r
non-historical journal, Parnassus, which was the art
a s s o c i a t i o n ' s secondary publicatign, f o r education, theory,
and p r a c t i c e , and s o on. The A r t B u l l e t i n w a s a very
schdarly thing and the h i s t o r y of art journal i n America,
and I guess maybe the world now, a f t e r World W
a
r I1
knocked things out s o abroad. The College A r t Journal
is the successor of Parnassus,
But the b a t t l e g o t such t h a t Lester Longman was re-
lieved of the e d i t o r s h i p of Parnassus and t h e funds were
taken away from it. That's the way they stopped it. They
discontinued i t i n October 1940, and when the College A r t
*Lester Longman has been a member of the Department of A r t
of the University of California a t Los Angeles since 1958-
59, and chairman from 1958-59 t o 1961-62.
Pepper: J o u r n a l came o u t -- t h a t was some years l a t e r -- i t came
i
I	 o u t under a t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t e d i t o r s h i p . It began, I
think, and stayed, under t h e e d i t o r s h i p of t h e head o f t h e
f department 	a t Indiana f o r some time, Henry Hope. And t h a t
i
i 	 was a very modest, unimportant s o r t of thing, b u t i t
I
gathered i n importance and I d i d a l o t of a r t i c l e s on t h i s
1
i 	 problem i n t h e College A r t Journal.
i
Riess: And i n Parnassus,
I
; Pepper: 	 Yes, when the big f i g h t was taking place the f o c a l a r t i c l e s
I
I
came o u t i n Parnassus. 

f Riess: A great many c o n t r i b u t o r s were concerned about the i s s u e . 

1 Pepper: Yes, i t w a s a chief i s s u e , and Longman and I won i n s p i t e 

i o f t h e f a c t t h a t he l o s t h i s e d i t o r s h i p , I n f . c t , I t h i n k 

t h e h i s t o r i a n s i n the long run l o s t by t h e i r a r b i t r a r y
I treatment.
I t ' s i n t h i s p u b l i c a t i o n t h a t I , through s e v e r a l arti-
c l e s , developed t h e plan of the department, s o t h a t t h e r e
is probably a group of e i g h t o r t e n a r t i c l e s running through
t h e r e t h a t would t e l l the s t o r y of 'the University of C a l i -
f o r n i a p o l i c y i n t h a t regard, These r e p r i n t s were i n demand
an& once i n a while s t i l l somebody sends i n f o r one. They
1 	 had q u i t e an influence, I think. [ s e e ~ ~ ~ e n d i c e s . 1
The plan was p a r t i c u l a r l y novel with regard t o t h e
1 ,
artists, and Worth had a good d e a l of influence i n t h i s
too. That 	is, how much of t h i s is my i d e a and how much
Worth's goodness knows. But the l o g i c of i t was very c l e a r
by the time we were p u t t i n g i t i n t o e f f e c t , and i t meant
scrapping those s u b j e c t courses on the analogy of economics
I
and philosophy or whatnot, and a f t e r t h e elementary course,
1
i
I
I
Pepper:
i
I
i
I
i
i
iI
I
I
J
I
.
Riess:
i n which a l l the artist members were supposed t o have a
hand, we spread the art courses, the upper division prac-
t i c e courses i n art, r i g h t across the board fanwise, and
they were the courses of the men.
. T h i s was a shocking idea t o many people i n the Univer-
s i t y , t h a t courses were not prerequisite t o other courses,
that the same course could be taken over and over again,
seminar-fashion, with new c r e d i t . W
e had t o convince them
t h a t a person who took a course under a man once, when he
took i t again would be g e t t i n g d i f f e r e n t criticism, from
the same man, and i t would be higher-grade criticism.
Furthermore, t o have a b l e r and newer elements i n the same
studio was an educative process i n i t s e l f . T h i s was studio
and almost, you might say, apprentice teaching, adapted t o
the American undergraduate college.
I t was an experiment, a l l r i g h t , and I must say I
wondered i f i t would work. B u t i t worked beautifully,
and f o r one thing i t eliminated a tremendous amount of
inner squabbling as t o who has t h i s
- course and who has
'that, because each man could run h i s course any way t h a t
he wanted. The question w a s naturally asked, "How do you
see t o i t t h a t they have figure drawing and watercolor
and o i l and other techniques?" Well, i f you have enough
men i t just automatically happens t h a t a l l of the techniques
g e t used. A s f o r subjects, of course, w
e soon ran i n t o the
abstract painting business where subject matter does not
e x i s t , but our plan w a s undismayed, where the older plan
would have been paralyzed.
Was there ever a problem because no one wanted t o take
the courses of a particular a r t i s t ?
-1 Pepper: No. That, of course, would be a s e r i o u s thing. Something's
I wrong with h i s teaching, t h a t ' s the conclusion one would
I
!
come t o ,
Riess: Wrong with h i s teaching, n o t with h i s p a i n t i n g ?
Pepper: Oh, yes, because a new movement is something t h a t e x c i t e s
1 s t u d e n t s if a man has any enthusiasm f o r it. A l l I can
s a y , though, is t h a t i t never happened.
Riess: How d i d you judge t h e s u c c e s s of t h e program?
Pepper: About t h e way you judged i n o t h e r departments. A s a matter
of f a c t , you have more d a t a on t h e t e a c h i n g of the p r a c t i c e
of art men than p r a c t i c a l l y anywhere e l s e i n t h e U n i v e r s i t y
because t h e s e a r e open l a b o r a t o r i e s . You walk i n any time
and t h e i n s t r u c t o r s walk i n on each o t h e r . Everybody
4
; knows what everybody e l s e i s doing, and you could watch
t h e i r c r i t i c i s m , you could s e e the e f f e c t s , P r e t t y soon
w
e developed a scheme of d i v i d i n g up t h e hallway i n
S p r e c k e l s H a l l -- t h i s w a s a l l i n S p r e c k e l s a t t h a t
time -- s o t h a t each artist had-a p i e c e of w a l l . And
they would p u t o u t the b e s t s t u d e n t work on the w a l l .
-So t h e r e i t was e x h i b i t e d f o r a l l t h e world t o s e e , and
t h a t produced something. It worked very, v e r y well.
Riess: Was p i c k i n g t h e s e men a problem?
Pepper: Oh, t h i s was the s t a f f we had. That was a good s t a f f .
I d i d n ' t b r i n g i n anybody. Loran and Haley were a l r e a d y
here. The s t a f f c o n s i s t e d of Meuhaus, and Rosamund S t a n l e y ,
M-rgaret Peterson 09Hagan, Worth Ryder, and Haley and Loran
and boynton and Obata, Dum.is came i n as a s u b s t i t u t e , I
t h i n k , when somebody went on a s a b b a t i c a l . I n f a c t , t h e s e
d i f f i c u l t i e s which I r a n i n t o the first y e a r a l l had t o do
pepper:
i
i
I
i!
I
!
Riess:
.
Pepper:
with the various things I've been mentioning, but not with
s t a f f i n g .
The f i r s t two years were my tough ones, and the first
one especially, because I had t o meet the Budget Committee's
objections. And incidentally, I g o t , s o far as I know,
everything.
The department was a campus issue; i t was a probleru
a l l across the board. The Committee on Courses, two men
came t o see m
e from there. Willard Durham was one, and he
came i n a very exaited frame of mind over the f a n p a t t e r n
of the p r a c t i c e courses, and I thought, M
y goodness, we're
going t o have a p i l e of trouble. But when he heard the
reasons f o r t h e s t r u c t u r e he reported back favorably. W
e
became f a s t colleagues, i n c i d e n t a l l y , on t h i s eame s o r t of
development f o r t h e drama department presently.
You say i n your b r i e f h i s t o r y of the department [appended]
t h a t the arrangement of i t as i t is now is good because
the artists and the art h i s t o r i a n s rub shoulders. I wonder
i f they r e a l l y do, k i t h the historxans located, as they a r e ,
i n t h e Library, and the artists i n t h e i r studios.
Well, they did. When the department was i n Spreckels they
were rubbing shoulders. That was another invention of t h i s
department, and i n p r i n c i p l e it's very important, and even
when they a r e kind of three-fourths separated as they a r e
now, the f a c t t h a t they're i n the same department, going t o
the same depa.rtment meetings, keeps them aware of each other.
And a t l e a s t here i t has tended t o force the artists t o
respect the h i s t o r i a n s and the h i s t o r i a n s t o respect the
artists i n ways t h a t j u s t don't happen when they a r e
separated.
Riess: Do they see each other s o c i a l l y , lunch together? 

Pepper: To some extent. I n the e a r l y days, when the department was

d
t	 r e l a t i v e l y small, they r e a l l y rubbed shoulders a l o t . And
r'
now the department h a s . g o t t e n so huge --
Riess: And separated geographicklly,
Pepper: Well, the h i s t o r i a n s were i n the Library then, too. They
use a tremendous nuaber of books end they j u s t have t o be
r i g h t next t o them. That's unfortunate. Ideally I would
l i k e the art department building t a be a wing of the Library,
s o t o speak. This is one of those things t h a t you j u s t
c a n ' t control, and I'm not sure but what eventually here
t h e y ' l l break a p a r t , But as long as Horn is around I'm
p r e t t y sure they won't, because he saw the point and has
approved of i t , and f e l t t h a t i t was very good f o r the
h i storisns.
Riess: Are the h i s t o r i a n s interested i n contemporary a r t ? 

Pepper: Yes, Kr. Chipp is the man here i n t e r e s t e d i n that. 

-
S t a f f and Teaching Problems Met
Pepper: 	 Let -me see i f I ' v e finished up about the c r e a t i v e artists,
what was going on there, a few of the l i t t l e d e t a i l s t h a t
I ran into. Let me t e l l you about the trouble I ran i n t o
i n m
y own department. I was anticipating, and i t was the
case, t h a t though I would have some trouble with Neuhaus
and perhaps h i s s a t e l l i t e , Hosamund Stanley, t h a t m
y g r e a t
trouble would be my friends. They would expect me, you
see, to be easy and harmonious w i t h them, and t h a t was not
m
y intention a t all. That is, i f I was going t o be
pepper: 	 chairman I wanted t o s e e t h a t i t became as f i n e a department
as i f could be. And within the department we didn't agree
on a l l things.
To g e t over the trouble with Neuhaus, t h a t was q u i t e
quickly done. He brought up an issue, and I can't exactly
remember what i t was. For some strange reason I don't have
i t i n m
y notes. 1 guess i t w a s so prominent i n m
y mind t h a t
I thought I ' d never f o r g e t i t , but I have. But within a
couple of months of m
y being chairman he brought up an
issue, and my guess is i t had t o do w i t h Rosamund Stanley's
sabbatical. That produced a very embarrassing and d i f f i c u l t
s i t u a t i o n , and i n a way I think Eugen knew i t would. She was
due f o r a s a b b a t i c a l and there was some ambiguity about the
date. She, by my reckoning, would have been due f o r a sab-
b a t i c a l e i t h e r i n the s p r i n g of 1940 o r the f a l l of 1941,
And Margaret OIHagan was d e f i n i t e l y due f o r a sabbatical i n
1939-40. She wanted a f u l l sabbatical, and Rosmund wanted
a f u l l sabbatical. -
Riess: 	 F u l l means a f u l l year?
Pepper: 	 Yes, a f u l l year, a t two-thirds pay, Rosamund' came i n with
a request f o r s a b b a t i c a l leave the f a l l of 1939. I saw
r i g h t off, p a r t i c u l a r l y with these two women who hated each
o t h e r l i k e poison, t h a t t h i s r e a l l y meant trouble, and I
suspected Eugen was behind i t , p a r t i c u l a r l y f o r pushing
Itosamund back t o 1939, because I was p r e t t y sure she had
no j u s t i f i a b l e claim f o r that. So I very carefully wrote
a l e t t e r t o Deutsch, explaining a l l of the implications of
the s i t u a t i o n , and t h a t t h i s must be very, very c a r e f u l l y
considered because i t was very tense and ran r i g h t across
! pepper: the departmental s p l i t r i g h t a t the beginning.
:
I g o t a l e t t e r back which turned out not t o be from
Deutsch, but from one of the a s s i s t a n t s i n h i s o f f i c e
j
I	 (Deutsch was away). The a s s i s t a n t apparently thought t h i s
I
was a purely numerical a f f a i r , and he s a i d t h a t Margaret was
d e f i n i t e l y due i n 1939-40 and he believed t h a t Rosamund was
not due u n t i l the f a l l of 1940. I was j u s t s e t t l i n g down
with t h a t and was about the publish the news, s o t o speak,
when Deutsch came back and s a i d t h a t i n reckoning over --
there were things having t o do with having been on leave,
o r something or other, o r sick, a l l those things came i n t o
i t -- t h a t he believed t h a t Rosamund was due, as a matter
of f a c t , i n the spring of 1940, and he recommended t h a t
the two g i r l s be given half s a b b a t i c a l s on f u l l salary.
Well, t h a t wasn't going t o s a t i s f y e i t h e r one, and
i t was q u i t e a mess, f i n a l l y s e t t l e d by Rosamund's going
f o r the year a f t e r t h a t . . Now t h i s , I think, was the issue..
The outcome w a s my recommendation; that is, t h a t I d i d n ' t
.. 8
think Margaret should be despoileh of her time. And the
president supported me, and from t h a t moment on I never
had any serious trouble with Eugen. I n f a c t , he was s o
sweet and nice t h a t I had t o remember t h a t he had claws.
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
I t wasn' t t:hzit he was always easy, but he never
produced any problems. I was a u t h o r i t y and he and t h a t
German o f f i c e r superior-inferior thing operated. I was
p r e t t y sure i t would.
Riess: 	 Anothsr past chairman, Washburn, was s t i l l around also.
Pepper: 	 Yes. The s t o r y of Washburn, t h a t was i n t e r e s t i n g and
delicate. I came i n and began t o take t!.:ings over i n the
l a t t e r p a r t of the summer, because I was a c t u a l l y chairman
I Pepper: 	 i n July. The s e c r e t a r y then was a Betsey Straub who was
an undergraduate p o l i t i c a l f i g u r e , and she d i d a l o t of
her campus p o l i t i c s , as a s e n i o r , i n the o f f i c e . So t h a t
one of the things t h a t I had t o do very e a r l y was t o make
the r u l e t h a t no s t u d e n t s could go p a s t the g a t e of the
o f f i c e , s o t h a t we wouldn't f i n d i t crowded with them.
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
They were n o t very t a c t f u l about i t e i t h e r ,
s o I g o t s i c k of it.
Well, Betsey was i n there and I came i n with some
documents t o s e e her and the door opened and t h e r e was
Washburn. This w a s the f i r s t time he'd seen me s i n c e I
came back, and he slammed the door and went away. I
waited a couple of days and then I went i n t o h i s off i c e
and discussed some questions about the non-practice majors
-- he'd had charge of those, there were some there then,
though I don't know q u i t e how t h a t was worked out -- and
he s a i d , "You're going t o l e t m
e keep charge of the majors?
I ' d l i k e t o o n And I s a i d , "Of course."
That smoothed t h a t s i t u a t i a n over, gave him responsi-
b i l i t y , and the i n t e r e s t i n g thing is t h a t before t h e year
w 2 s up he wss on m
y s i d e of thc fence completely. He had
a f e e l i n g t h a t Eugen had l e t him down; he thought Eugen
hadn't treated him q u i t e openly. There was more t o the
p a t t e r n of things than Eugen had l e t him see, which was
the case a l l r i g h t . So he had no use f o r Eugen, and
frankly he acted as kind of a spy on Eugen [laughing],
which was not too comfortable f o r me.
For instance, the artists had f o r some time wanted
a reduction of t h e i r p r a c t i c e courses from an eighteen
hour a week schedule t o twelve. I w a s opposed to t h i s .
b
, Pepper: I s a i d that you oould adjust the eighteen hours to three
days and I fixed i t up within a year or so s o t h a t a l l
but the newer artists had v i r t u a l l y a three or four day
veek. But Neuhaus took things i n h i s own hands and j u s t
would not attend two of h i s three classes. Washburn
called m
y attention to this.
I said, "I'm not bothering Eugen. H e w i l l have t o
be a privilesed person i n t h i s department. "
And Washburn said, "1 guess probably you're right.
If you have any trouble with him you've got t h i s as a
lever, and I ' l l give you the information." [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Oh, one l i t t l e trouble I did have with Eugen was t h a t
he was snooping a l l the time. If I had confidential l e t t e r s
t h a t I wanted the secretary t o write she would have t o write
them behind locked doors i n my offiae. H
e w a s all the time
coming i n t o see what she was writing. I had t o be careful
with some of the f i l e s , He was a nuisance t h a t way,
Riess: But Washburn worked i n well enough.
Pepper: W,ell, yes, i t was kind of pathetic-in a way. W
h
y he would
want to s t a y i n t h a t department under those conditions is
more than I could understand. Why didn't he go back t o
Latin? B u t he didn't want to,
Riess: Who was teaching on the history side?
Pepper: That becane thoroughly developed presently. W
e had Horn
there, of course, I think Worth and Eugen taught what
would be called history courses. Worth thought he w a s
teach in^ a history course. And t h a t ' s one of the i s s u e s
t h a t arose very soon,
I find i n looking over my notes t h a t I was h2ving
trouble with Horn, which seems strange t o look back on now.
Pepper:
i
I

r
But he had a notion t h a t he was not g e t t i n g fair play i n
respect t o the artists. A t one point i t looked as though
there was a chance of g e t t i n g $10,000 a year from the
Carnegie people, f o r ten years -- $100,000 would come.
And i t was f o r Horn. Horn had g o t i t a l l r i g h t . But one
thing I i n s i s t e d on, and I think I was r i g h t still, because
Horn had s l i g h t l y h i g h f a l u t i n ideas f o r what the department
was then, was t h a t we would buy a $3,000 undergraduate
photograph s e t , which was a b e a u t i f u l s e t , c a r e f u l l y worked
out. And Mills College had one.
He d i d n ' t want t o buy i t , but I went over t o Mills
College -- t h a t was kind of an i n t e r e s t i n g business. I
saw Neumeyer there and he greeted rne l i k e a s o l d i e r stand-
ing a t t e n t i o n , and ordered Roi Partridge, who w a s chairman
at the time, t o show m
e the collection. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So,
i t was f o r t u n a t e we didn't have Neumeyer, But I thought
the c o l l e c t i o n w a s excellent and I i n s i s t e d t h a t $3,000
go i n t o t h i s , which I think the Carnegie people had hoped
I anyway. But I thought i t was the thing t h a t a beginning
department i n h i s t o r y absolutely ought t o have. It was
the h i s t o r y of art r i g h t across the board, very carefully
selected, good photographs. J u s t exactly why Horn didn' t
want i t , I dont t know, but I think he thought t h a t i t was
undergraduate, you see. So t h a t was an i s s u e between us,
and there were some other minor ones, mostly without
j u s t i f i c a t i o n on h i s p a r t , though I can see how he could
wonder. The one r e a l h i s t o r i a n i n a bunch of artists --
he saw the l i m i t a t i o n s of Washburn r i g h t off. Horn was
an i s o l a t e d man here, which was kind of d i f f i c u l t , but I
was a l l 'for him. And strangely ensugh i n a way Worth was
Pepper: too, you know.
Another d i f f i c u l t y a r o s e here. T h i s had its p i v o t on
Worth. Worth was g i v i n g what was supposed t o be a h i s t o r y
,
/
of modern p a i n t i n g , and I guess s c u l p t u r e too, A r t 1B. And
i t seemed n a t u r a l t h a t the A r t 1 should be the h i s t o r i c a l
course, p r e r e q u i s i t e t o upper-division h i s t o r i c a l courses,
and should run on lA, lB, 1 C and s o on. And that2A, 3B,
I
I 2C would be the p r a c t i c e course p r e r e q u i s i t e . So I broached
.j1
t o Worth t h a t h i s c m r s e be renumbered 5. That r e a l l y broke
, Worth's h e a r t . He i n s i s t e d t h i s was h i s t o r y , he i n s i s t e d
;
, t h a t t h e art h i s t o r i a n s j u s t d i d n ' t know what h i s t o r y was.
J
; Oh, w
e r e a l l y had a t e r r i b l e b a t t l e over t h a t , and I g o t
i
11i
,
I
:
q u i t e angry. Meanthe the Budget Committee business came
i n , with t h i s l e t t e r from W i l l Dennes t h a t I mentioned.
Well, I solved t h a t t h i n g by showing him Will's l e t t e r ,
l e t t i n g him s e e what I w a s up a g a i n s t , t h a t h i s promotion
was under a cloud and t h a t I was f i g h t i n g h i s main b a t t l e
and t h a t t h i s was a t r i v i a l thing i n comparison. And he
' r a t h e r p a t h e t i c a l l y surrendered &id agreed t o go on i n h i s
program f o r n e x t year though with t h i s course now down as
Art 5. A s i t turned o u t , Walter was very good about it
-- I ' m q u i t e s u r e t h i s is t h e way i t was -- and s a i d , "No,
l e t ' s n o t bother Worth. Let him keep the number. We
d o n ' t know when we're going t o g e t a man who w i l l teach
the modern period anyhow. We'll f i l l out with the o t h e r
men first," which w
e did. So A r t 1B was Worth's aourse.
It was a famous course; i t was a wonderful course. But
l i t w d s n o t r e a l l y h i s t o r y , i t was something half-way be-
tween criticism and a e s t h e t i c s and h i s t o r y -- kind of a
mixture.
Pepper: Then there was another thing t h a t the artists didn't
l i k e . I f e l t t h a t two years of p r a c t i c e i n t h e lower divi-
s i o n was excessive, t h a t there was j u s t not t h a t much mater-
i a l t h a t was uniformly needed t o be gone over before they
could go i n t o an upper-division p r a c t i c e course. SO I
i n s i s t e d upon eliminating 3A-P, p a r t l y to g i v e a g r e a t e r
freedom of teaching time t o t h e staff, because there were
some courses besides the upper-division 100 courses.
There was an upper-division theory of p l a s t i c design
course which Worth gave, a course i n techniques which was
very important and which f i n a l l y was taken over by Glenn
Wessels, who made a famous course of it. There were a
number of r a t h e r e s s e n t i a l courses given by the artists.
Then we were s h o r t on history. W
e needed some upper-
d i v i s i o n work. Eugen did some of that. He gave a course
i n American h i s t o r y and "art i n the o o ~ u n i t y . ~ 'He didn't
teach a lower-division p r a c t i c e course, but he taught what
was a famous course for him, an appreciation course.
Riess, Technique wasn't taught in the-2A-B s e r i e s ?
Pepper: No, they were elementary practice. And t h e organization
- of t h a t course was Worth's throughout. That was a very
well-organized course.
Riess: Then what was the upper-division techniques course?
Pepper: That meant the making of pigments, the making of grounds,
the d i f f s r e n t types of o i l painting and s o on and s o on.
It was very advanced s t u f f . The lower-division s t u f f was
done with sumi brush, charcoal, black and white f o r the
f i r s t term almost e n t i r e l y . Watercolor, very simple technical
things, you see. When you g o t i n t o upper-division you had
technical problems t o understand.
I
I
Pepper:
!
iI
W
e had a long meeting i n m
y house on t h a t question. 

Washburn was a g a i n s t me on t h i s , he thought they should 

have the two years. This w a s kind of i n t e r e s t i n g , he was
backing Worth by t h a t time. Vhen i t f i n a l l y came t o a vote
they saw I was serious about this. A l l but Worth and Wash-
burn, s o t o speak, l e t m
e have it. Then I said, '#Now, t h i s
won't be discussed again f o r two yearsw -- because i t had
been coming up t o bother things a l l through the term --
and what's i n t e r e s t i n g is t h a t a t the end of two years they
did decide t h a t I was wrong and I decided I was too, so we
went back t o the 3A-B-C,
Oh, another trouble t h a t happened is that Betsey
Straub f e l l head over heels i n love with Walter Horn, and
I don't know how much was going the other vay, but [laugh-
ing] she resigned a t midyear. Then I g o t a much b e t t e r
secretary. Betsey was r e a l l y an awful secretary, her typ-
ing w a s f i e r c e , and t h i s business was enough to drive you
crazy, but I d i d n ' t want t o disuharge her r i g h t o f f , s o
she took care of t h a t i n her own way. Then Dorothy Grover,
who had been one of our very good a r t students a few years
'back, and who was a p r e t t y good painter h e r s e l f , had exhi-
b i t e d and f i t t e d i n and knew the whole p r o a m of the de-
partment, sympathetic i n her painting with the Haley and
Ryder crowd, she came i n as secretary and t h a t r e a l l y was
a g r e a t help. She was there f o r two or three years. She
was a l i t t l e b i t slow typing, t o be sure, and not too
good an executive, I l a t e r found what a r e a l s e c r e t a r y
could be, but she w a s a good transition.
Another i n t e r e s t i n g thing was t h a t I might have had 

trouble from the students, but I didn't. The head of the 

Pepper: 	 student honor s o c i e t y was a boy by the name of Lez Lewis
Haas, who has since become dean, I think, of the art
school of the University of New Mexico. He helped my
problems a l o t by seeing t h a t the students were cooperating,
or a t l e a s t being on the positive side of cooperation with
the new chairman,
Riess: 	 How could students have made things d i f f i c u l t ?
Pepper: Well, these e h i f t s of courses went on f o r a couple of years
o r so. They took sides with the professors, you know.
Oh, and by the way, a very important thing I did when
I went i n was t o say t h a t I admired a l l of these instructors,
practice men -- and I could honestly say i t -- t h a t there
would be no dismissals of any of them during my administra-
tion, t h a t is, no recommendations f o r dismissals (which was
the best I could say, r e a l l y ) , and t h a t I thought i t was a
wonderful thing t h a t they differed so i n t h e i r schools, t h a t
the more discussion and the opposition expressed i n c l a s s e s
of one another, the b e t t e r , t h a t showed the dynamic q u a l i t y
of the work and the teaching. w i t h the r e s u l t t h a t there
w a s much l e s s discussion and opposition than there had been.
[~ a u ~ h t e r ]
One of the astonishing things about our setup, which
I hadn't anticipated, because I was building t h i s f o r the
undergraduates primarily, as an undergraduate major depart-
ment, you see, was t h a t though these practice students get-
ting t h e i r AB degrees could only spend two hours a day a t
most, and probably not that, on practice art, and didn't
g e t i n t o doing a l l day work i n i t u n t i l t h e i r graduate
years, nevertheless they were being accepted and taking
1
,
. Pepper: honorable mentions i n the exhibits around here r i g h t on a
i l e v e l with these all-time schools -- and there were good
d
f ones here, the California School of Fine Arts i n San Fran-
f cisco, and the College of A r t s and C r a f t s i n Oakland. Of
i course our 	students had the advantage of b e t t e r all-over
i 	 background here, and t h a t , I think, counts. And a l s o I
think i t ' s j u s t possible t h a t i f they do nothing but p a i n t
there a r e diminishing returns.
The Ph.D. i n Art History
Riess: One of the things you d i d as chairman was i n s t i t u t e the
granting of a Ph.D. i n art history.
Pepper: That's one of those cases where there was a victory t h a t was
a t t a i n e d i n queer ways.
Riess: When did you start working on t h a t problem?
Pepper: The date would be a guess.
Riess: Wasethis one of the things you had planned when you knew
you would be chairman?
Pepper: 	 Oh, absolutely. You haven't g o t a well-developed h i s t o r y
of art branch u n t i l the Ph.D. is admitted. So t h a t was
our ambition, t o get i t as quickly as possible, p a r t l y so
as to be an induoement f o r f i r s t - r a t e men t o come. W
e had
Horn, and we had Washburn, who r e a l l y d i d n ' t count very
much, but w
e had him i n mind a l l r i g h t . Then the next men
we got were Darrell Amyx i n the h i s t o r y of c l a s s i c a l a r b
and Otto Maenchen i n Oriental art.
Riess: They came i n 1947-1948. 

Pepper: A s l a t e as that? It seems as tnough w
e h i t t h i s thing 

Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Peppe'r:
e a r l i e r than 1947. 'But i t vas a r a t h e r s l i m group t h a t we
had.
Horn was gone several years because of the war, s o what was
l e f t vas Ryder's course, and Neuhaus i n American art,
The g e t t i n g of Maenchen was a curious business too, because
personally I had the highest admiration f o r Langdon Warner,
and n a t u r a l l y asked h i s advice, and the one man of some
eminence t h a t he warned us a g s i n s t was Maenchen. He s a i d
he was awful, he was i n the German school and pedantic and
a l l things t h a t were bad, Now, he had a point. That is,
he f e l t t h a t h i s humane approach t o art h i s t o r y w s s n o t
appreciated. But on the other hand Maenchen f e l t t h a t
Warner was a l l things bad, he was s u p e r f i c i a l and senti-
mental and i n t e r e s t e d i n a e s t h e t i c s r a t h e r than h i s t o r y of
art. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Where were both of these men a t t h a t time?
Warner was too old t o be thought of f o r here, but he spoke
very frankly because he's a cousin of my wife's. He was
'head of the Oriental p a r t of the Fogg Museum a t Harvard
and one of the very eminent men a t t h a t time, a man of
the type of a c e r t a i n kind of Harvard professor -- William
James, Santayana, Briggs, B l i s s Perry, Nielson -- t h a t was
a p a r t i c u l a r kind of human, scholarly, unpedantic, gentle-
man scholar t h a t ' s almost gone out now. And k n c h e n ' s just
the opposite. He's a German s p e c i a l i s t scholar, and n o t
[ laughing] awfully human.
Yet nothing l i k e e i t h e r of the other two Germans you had,
Neuhaus and Horn.
Those three are about as contrasted i n three ways as pos-
s i b l e . Neuhaus is a t y p i c a l bourgeois, North German, a
Pepper: Berliner type of aggressive German, and b a s i c a l l y no
gentleman, but with a he-man element -- he's very human
i n t h a t way. Walter Horn is a r e l a t i v e l y southern German
type, very much of a gentleman, f u l l of energy, not bour-
geois i n tho aggressive oense at all.
I
NOW Maenchen's a Viennese, and t h a t ' s another kind of
i man, t o t a l l y unaggressive, but t e r r i f i c a l l y i n t e r e s t e d i n
h i s own research, and never, never could we brin(7 him to
do h i s job on administrative things. Walter was s o irri-
tated, when he was chairman, t h a t he came t o me and s a i d ,
"I'm going t o put him as the advisor of the h i s t o r y majors."
I said, "Walter, do have a heart. The poor students."
[laughter] So I don' t think Maenchen ever d i d n f u l l day's
work of administration i n committees; c e r t a i n l y i n the
department he was a deadweight t h a t way. But he was a
very a b l e teacher, r e a l l y very a b l e , a f i n e l e c t u r e r , and
he had a good deal more a e s t h e t i c sense of values than I
think Langdon Warner knew, and I think more than Maenchen
I himself knew. It's a kind of s e n s i t i v i t y of genuine schol-
a r s h i p t h a t comes out. But he j u s t d i d n ' t have t h a t kind
'of generous breadth of appreciation and the sense t h a t
nothing is r e a l l y s o important i n any phase of art as the
beauty of i t , and the s o c i a l significance of it. The
German scholar tends n o t t o have that.
They were a wonderful bunch, t h a t p a r t i c u l a r group of
Harvard professors l i k e Warner and James, and some of them
I spread out over the country, but they had q u i t e a nucleus
there. Langdon Warner was a marvelous man. Incidentally,
while I ' m on Langdon Warner, he is -- I guess t h i s is s a f e
t o say the person who saved Kyoto when we were r a i d i n g
--
Pepper: 	 Japan with bombs. He was a prominent man i n Oriental a r e a s
and the government was asking advice wherever i t could g e t
i t about Oriental matters t o g e t a l i n e on the Japanese aad
s o on &nd Warner n ~ t u r a l l ygave the government a l l the
information he could, but among other things he said, llDon't
touch the Kyoto area." Fortunately there was nothing of
m i l i t z r y inportance there anywzy. Osaka they bombed heavily,
t h a t ' s near there, but they never touched Kyoto.
Incidentally, the group t h a t were what you might c a l l
the a e s t h e t i c i n t e l l i g e n t s i a of Japan were never very keen
on t h i s war; t h a t was a military-diplomatic affair. Warner
hds tremendous admiration f o r the old Japanese c u l t u r e and
they knew t h a t he did and t h a t he loved i t , and they loved
him. They a r e very much aware of the f a c t t h a t he saved
t h a t region; he denied t h a t he's the b a s i s of i t , but I
don't believe anybody e l s e had the i n f l ~ e n c e
he did -- i t
was r e a l l y h i s job. And when he died the Japanese put up
a monument i n the oldest tenple a r e a of Japan, i n Horiuji,
i n ' h i s honor, on a prominent h i l l , i n d when we were there
three years ago we wanted t o find i t and w
e ssked people
where Professor Langdon Warner's place was, and nobody had
ever heard of Professor Langdon W.%rner. W
e couldn't f i n d
anything. Finally ve g o t hold of a p r i e s t who knew Gnglish
r r t h e r b e t t e r than the others. nOh," he said, "You mean
Warner-san." "Oh, Warner-san!" They a l l knew about Warner-
san. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So w
e had no d i f f i c u l t y i n finding it,
and he is t r e a t e d l i k e a Japanese hero, with a momument,
and people come there and honor him.
Why was an O r i e n t a l i s t one of the first people you were
looking f o r t o supplement the h i s t o r y of a r t teaching,
i
Riess: 

, Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

r a t h e r than a more general historian of art?
Oh, we were looking f o r anybody. But actually t h i s was a
n a t u r a l region f o r specializing i n Oriental art, and I think
maybe we had i t more or less i n the back of our heads t h a t
here was a f i r s t - r a t e man and t h a t he probably vould be
available. He was an emigrt? and he was teaching a t Mills,
which was not very remunerative, We speculated about
several other men around the country; I don't k n ~ w
whether
we offered any of them a job. But when i t was f i n a l l y a l l
over we decided t h a t t h i s was too good a chance t o m i s s ,
and th.%tlsthe way Maenchen caue here. Apart from h i s never
doing any jobs i n administretion [laughing], he's been a
very greatasset, he's been fine. I don't know what they're
going t o do t o f i l l h i s place now. He's teachifig still, but
he's i n r e t i r e d s t a t u s .
Wclsi t wnen he came t h a t you began t o work on the Ph.D. idea?
W
e were doping i t out. I guess we were counting on kmyx f o r
c l a s s i c a l art, on Maenchen f o r Oriental art, on Horn f o r
-
f
medieval and early Renaissance art, on Ryder and Neuhaus
and Frankenstein -- w
e had him as temporary l e c t u r e r here
-- and we were =king a plea that these l a t t e r men, though
not a c t u a l historians -- something could be s a i d f o r Neuhaus
on t h a t score, but not t h e others -- were f i l l i n g t h a t b i l l
s u f f i c i e n t l y well. And primitive art -- we had some good
men i n anthropology, and no one could not deny that they
were good men. The anthropologists were one of our chief
problem. And myself i n aesthetics. W
e regarded t h a t as
a tean s u f f i c i e n t f o r a respectable Ph.D.
You s a i d t h e anthropologists were one of your chief problems?
Pepper: Yes. They were against us on t h i s . Kroeber was on the
graduate council and he was opposed t o it. He didn't think
t h a t we had a s u f f i c i e n t l y large, competent s t a f f f o r a
Ph.D. And furthermore, he was a man who was only i n t e r e s t e d
i n the h i s t o r y side; to say the l e a s t , he never helped us
with our artist side. Kroeber was no help. And neither
was Lowie, though he was not deeply involved. But Kroeber
was very deeply involved because of h i s close association
with the dean of the graduate division, Charles Lipman a t
t h a t time.
Lipman w a s a very opinionated man. He could sometimes
be very generous. He was giving up h i s l i f e r e a l l y , I
think, t o being dean of t h e gradu i t e divisicn, and 1 think
one would have t o say t h a t h i s administration was, on the
whole, a good one. But he was opinionated and very dogma-
t i c and immovable i f he r e a l l y g o t h i s mind on something,
though the b a s i s might have not been very good.
Well, t h a t happened t o be the case here. Lipman had
read an a r t i c l e by a man a t Princeton, whose name I have
-
forgotten, but t h i s man was promimnt on the h i s t o r y of art
s t a f f at Princeton which a t t h a t time I guess one would
say was the outstanding h i s t o r y of art department i n
America. Harvard was outstanding i n preparation f o r
museum work. I don't think the New York University crowd
had s t a r t e d yet; they outstripped Princeton and everybody
a f t e r they r e a l l y got going, but t h a t was war refugee busi-
ness. So I think Princeton would be regarded then as the
outstanding h i s t o r y of art group i n America.
This man was a man strong enough t o develop the history
of a r b policy of the Princeton art department. M
a was
Pepper:
:
I
If
1
1
I
1
Riess:
I Pepper:
1
extremely impressed by the English way of doing things and 

believed t h a t a doctor's degree should only be given to a 

man who had produced a scholarly work i n mature l i f e , on 

the English system, you know. 

So he i n s t i t u t e d the M.P.A. there (master of f i n e a r t s ) ,
and t h e i r M.F.A. was the next thing t o a Ph.D., but i t
raised almighty Ned with the understanding of administrative
o f f i c e r s across the country about these things. Incidentally,
Lipman didn't understand what i t w a s ; t h a t is, we couldn't
g e t i t across t o him that the N.F.A. a t Princeton w a s prac-
t i c a l l y a Ph,D. and i t was out of step. He was saying that
the a r t department should not o f f e r a Ph.D. ever, i n any
way. And he had the authority of Princeton t h a t t h i s was
not the way i t should be done. And he stood h i s ground on
t h a t absolutely.
Kroeber was not t h a t dogmatic, but he just f e l t t h a t
we were not strong enough and, looking back a t the thing
from h i s point of view as one of the g r e a t scholars of the
' ~ n i v e r s i t ~ ,
I think he may have had some reason f o r f e e l i n g
that. However, we were out t o make progress as fast as we
could.
Granting the Ph.D. would make i t possible to become stronger
f a s t e r .
W
e could g e t other men t o come here. The f a c t t h a t we were
not giving the Ph.D. was a blight, you see, and people
might wonder if we were going to, So i t was very e s s e n t i a l
t h a t we get t h a t Ph.D. a t the e a r l i e s t possible moment.
There was a s e r i e s of sessions w i t h the graduate divi-
sion and they were held up i n what w a s the Senate chamber
I
Pepper:
I
Ij
I
Riess:
Pepper:
-
Riess:
then, 312 Wheeler, which by the way is a very dignified room.
It was b u i l t as a Senate chamber. You might take a look at
i t i f you never have. I t had c l o t h panelling, and the
s p e c i a l desk -- t h a t ' s s t i l l there -- runs nearly the
width of the room, and very comfortable chairs, which a r e
probably' still there. I t would s e a t about 200. One of t h e
nice things they did f o r me e a r l y -- I r e a l l y have been
t r e a t e d awfully well -- was t o assign t h a t room f o r the
a e s t h e t i c s class. They thought i t would be s u i t a b l e , f i t t i n g .
Well, there we met. Walter t e s t i f i e d , and I was, of
course, i n the center of discussion there. Neuhaus t e s t i f i e d .
A s a matter of f a c t , the administration <f the f a c u l t y here
j u s t bore Lipman down. They saw the importance of it.
Hildebrand was r i g h t behind me. When Hildebrand saw the
way things were going, he was a g r e a t support t o me, and t o
the department. The provost, Deutsch, came i n and t e s t i f i e d .
And I don't know who e l s e , but i t was a very impressive l i s t
t h a t s a i d Lipman was j u s t wrong. -
And t o make a long s t o r y
I
short, i t was f i n a l l y granted. That is, we got a bare 

majority of the graduate council t o pass i t , over ~ i ~ m a n ' s 

bidy. He never favored i t , but i t was done. 

Was there any s t r i f e i n the art department about it? 

Oh, no, the artists f e l t t h a t matter was m
y a f f a i r , not 

t h e i r s . Worth was never e n t h u s i a s t i c about h i s t o r y of art, 

of course. H
e always was suspicious of i t , and t h a t gave 

Eugen a leverage always. The other artists T think j u s t 

d i d n ' t care, s o t h a t there was no problen there a t all. 

And, of course, the h i s t o r i a n s were very eager f o r it. 

Later on you added Schulz and Chipp and Ackerman. 

i
Pepper: Yes, Schulz came a f t e r my chairmanship, Ackerman was one
of our great gets. Chipp was an exceptional man, s t i l l is.
H e s t a r t e d out i n the practice s i d e of art i n our department
I and received an M.A. there i n the practice of art, which is
i
1 a l l we give, and then he went t o Columbia, deciding t o 

I s h i f t t o history. I guess he had about a year with Walter, 

1 what he could give. But there was a man we were watching 

1 who at t h a t time was a very exceptional man, a well-trained
4
1
artist going i n t o history. And he has been a valuable man

i n the department because he understands the artists and 

the history people. 

1 Riess: I came across some comments on artists i n u n i v e r s i t i e s i n a
I
book, The Shape of Content by Ben Shahn, which you may know.
[vintage Books, New York, 19601
Pepper: 	 No, I never read it. One of the very funny things about me
i s t h a t I, havin: been brought up i n the art world, read
very l i t t l e about it. I read q u a n t i t i e s of music because
I w a s weak there, and l i t e r a t u r e , but art -- I'm a f r a i d
,very l i t t l e about a r t . -

Riess: But you've written a great deal about i t . 

I
Pepper: Xes. [~ a u g h i n ~ ]
Riess: Ben Shahn quoted i n t h i s book from a 1956 report of the
Harvard Committee of the Visual Arts.
Pepper: Oh, I know that. By the way, i f I remember correctly, there
are some quotations, almost d i r e c t , from m
y writings i n t h a t
report. No, i t was a Harvard cormnittee on the reorganization
of the humanities. I was away a t the time, but Walter turned
then on t o a l o t of m
y s t u f f , statements of i d e a l s of the art
department as a whole. And a l o t of t h a t was taken almost
verbatim by them.
--
Riessz
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
Riess: 

Pepper: 

One comment was t h a t t h a t art teachers were often chosen f o r
t h e i r a b i l i t y t o g e t along pleasantly with the historians.
That would be i n Eastern history-dominated departments.
That was not the s i t u a t i o n here.
Absolutely not. It was the other way around, you see; i f
anything the h i s t o r i a n s were the ones who were mtoleratedfl
i n the beginning. No, we had no such problems. And y o u ' l l
n o t i c e t h a t these men have been highly c r e a t i v e r i g h t down
the l i n e . Lockwood and Haley and Loran, David Park, a l l
f i r s t - r a t e men of national reputation. And Glenn Wessels
is now g e t t i n g i n t o the same c a l i b e r . I should say three-
f o u r t h s of our men a r e men of d e f i n i t e n a t i o n a l regutation,
and a l l of them a r e men of good l o c a l reputation.
I wanted t o ask, too, whether the regents ever entered i n t o
these departmental formation matters?
Never. W
e had the regents wsll-trained up here i n the
north. They don't i n t e r f e r e with us, except on l o y a l t y
problems. That w a s t h e only time they ever i n t e r f e r e d up
-
here since I ' v e been here t h a t I know of.
Problems i n A l l i e d Departments
A r t Education and Schaefer-Simmern
Would you t e l l me about the program i n art teaching, i n the 

education of a r t teachers? 

Oh, m
y gosh, Schaefer-Simmern. I forgot. 

W
e ought t o look back and f i n d when Schaefer-Simmern
joined 'the staff. The year before t h a t would give the date
, 

i Pepper: t h a t k was approached by Russell who I guess was at t h a t
time an associate professor i n education. He is one of
i the good men there now, although I think h i s ideas about
i how students should read are not very helpful. He is one
that had most influence on t h i s visual reading setup. So
many of us parents w i t h experience of children are s o sure
he's wrong -- not but what some children benefit by i t , but
others don't, But that's another story. David Russell is
a nice fellow. [ ~ a u ~ h i n g ]
H
e approached me and said t h a t there had been quite a
l i t t l e discussion of the advantage of developing more than
we had here i n the education of art, and he thought t h a t
the art department had achieved a s t a t u s where we could
become leaders i n the a r t educational f i e l d i f we could
find ~ornebodywho would be agreeable t o the art department
and a l s o to educstion and bridge the two. The person would
be i n education, a l s o i n art. And then Freeman, who w ~ s
the
dean of the school, saw m
e a l i t t l e l a t e r and was very en-
t h u s i a s t i c about it. I said f thought i t was fine, i t was
a
.- wonderful idea, l e t ' s look f o r a man.
J u s t about that time I was at a meeting of the aes-
thetics association i n ~ l e v e l a n dand Munro was there, the
Munro they hbjd thought of as a possible chairman before m
e
and who has been a very important man, particularly i n
certain phases of art education, The meeting was i n h i s
own bailiwick; he was a t Western Reserve and attached t o
1	 the museum, had a l o t t o do with principles of art educa-
tion. (By the way, somebody on t h i s score that you might
find very interesting .to t a l k t o is Barnhart, ir speech
Pepper: 	 and psychology. Barnhart can t e l l you about Munro's
teaching and a l s o a l i t t l e b i t about the r e l a t i o n s
between t h a t s o r t of business and the art department,
and possibly something about Schaefer-Simrnern, too. H
e
came here f r e s h from Munro's education s e t u p there, which
seems t o have been very good.)
Somehow o r other, but i t would have been i n e v i t a b l e
because of the p o s i t i o n t h a t Munro had i n the country, he
had taken Schaefer-Simmern under h i s wing. Schaefer-Simrnern
had been an o r i g i n a t o r of teaching methods i n art and had
had a r a t h e r high o f f i c i a l p o s i t i o n as supervisor of art
over one of the big German provinces. I don't know as he
is a Jew, he doesn't look t o m
e l i k e a Jew, b u t s o ~ e h o w
he g o t out of s t e p on the H i t l e r i a n business and had t o
leave. So he landed over here -- i t was r a t h e r late i n
the war, I think -- and be had l i v e d i n New York f o r a
year, I guess, and had done some work i n connection with
a p s y c h i a t r i c i n s t i t u t i o n , done some work with children
2- i t was c h i l d art t h a t he was pa>ticularly s p e c i a l i z i n g
in, the e a r l y grades -- and he had q u i t e a l i t t l e d a t a and
tlie photographs of what h i s studenta had produced were
p e r f e c t l y f a s c i n a t i n g , j u s t extraordinary, t o me.
I guess I l e t i t l e a k out a b i t t h a t w
e were i n t e r e s t e d
i n a n a r t education man. A t any rate, Munro s a i d t o me very
s ~ ~ o r t l y "This man is i n t e r e s t i n g .
a f t e r I a r r i v e d there,
You might kind of keep a n eye on him, keep i n touch with
him." He gave a l e c t u r e , and h i s s l i d e s were, as I say,
amazing, s o I g o t i n touch with him and he had m
e up i n
h i s room. , I t w a s a n i n t e r e s t i n g evening, i t wasn't boring
a t all. I was there till one o'clock i n the n i g h t with
i
r Pepper: him t e l l i n g me about h i s methods and showing me more of t h e
1 m a t e r i a l t h a t he'd produced. He was a rough-and-tumble
I
kind of fellow, a l l r i g h t , c e r t a i n l y nothing d e l i c a t e o r
I
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r e f i n e d about him, but I thought, "My gosh, t h a t ' s nothing,
a man who can do t h i s kind of thing -- l e t ' s have a try."
So I came back and t o l d Hildebrand about it. Hildebrand,
of course, a l l t h i s time was chairaan of t h e stand-by commit-
t e e f o r art, which by t h e way, looking back, had a f u n c t i o n
t h a t I don't think I made p l a i n and I ' d f o r g o t t e n about: i t
was n o t only t h a t I would have something t o appeal t o , b u t
t h a t anybody i n the department could go t o t h e committee
' o v e r my head, without l e t t i n g me know, with any cornplairts
they wanted t o make. It was, as a m a t t e r of fact, s o far
as I know, never used t h a t way. C e r t a i n l y I never used i t ,
but i t w a s t h e r e , and i t was p r e t t y important as a h e l p
because they were watching and t e l l i n g the rest of the
U n i v e r s i t y t h a t things were going a l l r i g h t . So I t o l d
Hildebrand, and I guess I t o l d Deutsch -- I would be tel-
-
l i n g a l l these fellows. They s a i d , "Fine." Deutsch, I
g u e s s , was t h e one t h a t s a i d , "Get him o u t here. We'll
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have him g i v e a l e c t u r e . " I think t h a t was it.
So Schaefer-Simmern came out and I gave a c o c k t a i l
p a r t y which, s o far as he knew, o r might have known -- I
don't know how keen he w a s about these t h i n g s -- was j u s t
a c o c k t a i l party, but as a matter of f a c t i t was q u i t e a
group of men t h a t were there. E i t h e r Kroeber o r Lowie,
I don't remember which was t h e r e -- a very c r i t i c a l bunch
-- Horn and whoever e l s e was doing h i s t o r y with us then,
and Hildebrand and Deutsch and, f guess, Popper. A kind
Pepper: of an ad hoc committee was established t o s i z e t h i s fellow
up. H
e talked loudly and e n t h u s i a s t i c a l l y and he l e f t .
And then those who had seen him met afterwards. They kind
of laughed and said, "Well, he's a queer one, but ha seems
t o have i t , a l l right." Oh, ~ ; a n kFreeman of course w a s
there. " I f you and Freeman a r e w i l l i n g t o r i s k it, w e ' l l
g e t behind you," w ~ s
the conclusion of t h i s group. So,
okay. He was brought t o Berkeley i n an a s s i s t a n t profes-
s o r s t a t u s , and he was very g l a d t o come t o be attached t o
t h i s g r e a t University.
This man had a t t h a t moment and f o r some time t o come
the opportunity t o be the supervisor of a r t , through the
support of the University, o f the whole s t a t e of California,
and i f you would j u s t r e a l i z e what t h a t would mean i n
regard t o the country, too -- he had an opportunity t h a t
maybe w i l l never happen again, because the s i t u a t i o n then
i n the art department and the education department i n
r e l a t i o n t o the s t a t e and the schools w a s j u s t r i g h t .
Well, and we were of course gcooming him f o r that -- n o t
t h a t I vas grooming him f o r t h i s s t a t e position, but
- Freeman was.
He had a course i n the art department which Mrs.
Pepper took and she thought i t was effective. Most of
the students were e n t h u s i a s t i c about h i s p a r t i c u l a r mode
of teaching art.
I f you want t o know h i s p r i n c i p l e s , they a r e published
very ably i n a book of h i s which is one of the important
books i n teaching ohildren art. It was a combination of
a theory of c h i l d art and primitive art. Incidentally,
Pepper:
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t h a t principle is somewhat dubious; t h a t is, whether the
development of primitive art p a r a l l e l s the development of
c h i l d art, However, he did make some p r e t t y s t r i k i n g
p a r a l l e l s , I must say. I won't go i n t o h i s principles.
They were very, very i n t e r e s t i n g , and a l o t of evidence
checks them out, and i t ' s a l l i n t h a t book, The unfold in^
of A r t i s t i c Activity, The University Press brought i t out
here, a very popular book, has gone through several edi-
t i o n s and j u s t i f i a b l y so.
But within a couple of years the teachers of the
s t a t e of California were s p l i t i n t o two v i o l e n t groups,
those who were pro Schaefer-Simern and those who were
opposed.
How was he making himself f e l t throughout the s t a t e ?
Well, he w a s lecturing, exemplifying h i s teachkg i n a c t u a l
p r a c t i c e courses.
And h i s students going out --
I don't know as h i s students were, but he was giving
seminars t o te<ichers and these were bringing people. He
w a s noised a l l over the s t . i t e , What happened down south
I j u s t kind of g e t echoes of, but what happened around
here I was very well aware of. H i s weakness -- t h i s is
where h i s character cones i n -- he was a good deal l i k e
Neuhaus, sanie kind of a blustering, bourgeois German with
the a u t h o r i t a r i a n slant and r a t h e r more openly s o because
he vas f r e s h e r from Germany and had himself been a school
o f f i c i a l . He ran things and t h a t was h i s conception. I
suppose we should hdve had warning there t h a t a man of
t h i s ,type vould be just impossible i n the Ainerican school
system anyway, but Freeman and I stuck w i t h him.
r '. Pepper: W
e stuck with him much longer than we should have. H i s
s t r e n g t h s I ' v e t o l d you, and from the t h e o r e t i c a l s i d e i t
was form, shapes, o u t l i n e representations, l i g h t and shade
shapes. He had no i n t e r e s t i n color, I think I'm s a f e i n
saying, and Ellen, m
y wife, reports that. H i s color was
banal. She has a very s e n s i t i v e sense. Other students
knew too; i n f a c t , those smart students, they've gotten
awfully c l e v e r i n the art department, you know; a f t e r they
have been there two o r three years and have been with these
men they could do anything p r e t t y near. They'd f i n d out
what he wanted and they would do i t , n o t out of t h e i r s o u l s
but j u s t because they could do i t , and they deceived the
poor fellow t h a t way, and they'd g e t t h e i r As, s o t h a t i n
the a r t department h i s influence w a s not s o much as else-
where. But with young k i d s i t was d i f f e r e n t . He r e a l l y
had something.
There's one whole s i d e of t h i s c h i l d painting t h a t
many of the teachers emphasize most, and I must say t h a t
i t ' s something t h a t c a n ' t be neglected, and t h a t is the
spontaneous gush of enthusiasm f o r c o l o r splashing over
paper, but he had no appreciation of t h a t and he f e l t
somehow o r other, he g o t i t r a t i o n a l i z e d , t h a t t h i s was
n o t the n a t u r a l unfolding [laughing] of the c h i l d ' s inspir-
ation. This was something t h a t was thrown i n by the unar-
t i s t i c . A t any r a t e , you can s e e how a l l the color conscious
group of the art teachers vould be h o s t i l e . And it's rele-
vant t h a t a p a r t i c u l a r l y successful elementary art teacher
was the wife of John Haley, Monica Haley, who s t i l l teaches
i n Richmond. Though I ' d heard rumkks and rumors of trouble
Pepper: 	 brewing, the first d e f i n i t e evidence of what was wrong came
from her, because Haley is a c o l o r i s t , s o t h a t was the s i d e
of c h i l d painting t h a t p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t e d her.
Schaefer-Simmern was j u s t leaving t h i s out and was down-
grading i t , and she f e l t t h i s was t e r r i b l e f o r the spon-
taneous enthusiasm of the children, t o confine them t o
l i n e drawings.
Now t h a t ' s the background. He found t h a t he was
p r e t t y important here and he found t h a t he had a c l i e n t e l e .
He began t o f e e l r a t h e r confident i n h i s p o s i t i o n and with
t y p i c a l German h i e r a r c h i c a l conceptualization he f e l t per-
f e c t l y s a f e under the protection of Freeman and me; the
chief o f f i c e r s were behind him and he could do what he
darn pleased with the r e s t , they would support him. The
whole bunch of the education department, including Russell,
couldn't bear him, and the sane thing began t o develop i n
the art department.
Well, both Freeman and I defended him and s a i d , "Let's
watch, l e t ' s see. ~ e ' s
g o t something there." Yes, he had
something, butt The thing t h a t f i n a l l y brought the art
.-	 department i n t o complete r e v o l t was t h a t he began t o
undertake t o undermine my a e s t h e t i c teachings and my
a u t h o r i t y i n the department. Haley and Ryder and t h e
o t h e r s absolutely would not stand f o r that, and f i n a l l y
they came t o me and t o l d me what he was doing. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
That put me i n kind of a funny position, but he had g o t
t o such a point t h a t I think he a c t u a l l y s a i d t h a t he
ought t o be head of the department, too. It was one of
Pepper:
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With m
y department i n r e v o l t a g a i n s t him, and I the
only fellow defending him, I d i d n ' t know what t o believe.
1 thought maybe t h i s w a s kind of made up, you know, because
I knew they were biased against h i s teaching. If Haley
would c r i t i c i z e Boynton, why, maybe i t was because he had a
d i f f e r e n t way of doing things; maybe he was c r i t i c i z i n g
Schaefer-Simmern's art because & had a d i f f e r e n t way of
doing i t -- I was expecting t h a t s o r t of thing,
Since t h i s man had such a sense of hierarchy, i t seems a
s u r p r i s e t h a t he would dare t o undermine you.
Well, t h a t was surprising. He must have f e l t j u s t awfully
secure. However, i n terms of h i s p r i n c i p l e s some of m
y
p r i n c i p l e s would have been anathema t o him. One of them
is t h i s color business, you see.
There's nothing much more t o the s t o r y than t h i s ,
thdt Freeman and I g o t together one day and said, "Well,
guess it's hopeless." So we recommended t h a t he be dropped
from the University, and t h a t was that. He, however, has
been something of an influence. He's developed a school
down here i n Berkeley, he's g o t t e n along p r e t t y well. He
teaches teaching of art. He got a good, strong c l i e n t e l e ,
he was not c u t thoroughly a d r i f t . But r e a l l y , I mean, here
was a man t h a t had the art education of the s t a t e handed
t o him on a p l a t t e r , and because of h i s personality and h i s
dogmatism -- You know, he could have believed a l l the things
he d i d and believed them hard i f only he hadn't knocked the
other people so. I did m
y b e s t t o t r y t o say t h a t there
were two s i d e s of this. Oh, well, he knew, I was j u s t m
a e s i h s t i c i a n . So, t h a t ' s the background about Schaefer-
Simmern. I ' d forgotten a l l about t h a t . I s n ' t t h a t funny?
. 

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Pepper: 

That is t h e one absolute f a i l u r e t h a t we undertook.
The education group was soured [ laughing] ; they were
not with t h i s p r o j e c t any more; t h a t was the end of i t ,
absolutely.
Decorative A r t
There's a l i t t l e business with the household art department
I guess t h a t ought t o be gone into. That was a very dis-
agreeable business. Let me go i n t o the h i s t o r y a b i t ,
because t h a t ' s another -- I don't know whether t o call
i t s f a i l u r e , but i t was another attempt. W
e didn't suc-
ceed -- I can't say "1," I was j u s t one of the people
there -- but we didn't succeed i n saving the University
a good deal of wasted e f f o r t . I t was a waste i n a number
of ways, and the administration is i n process of undoing
i t now, but a l o t of money was unnecessarily spent.
The s t o r y is very b r i e f l y t h i s t the decorative art
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department contained a queer agglomeration of things.
l t began as household a r t and had two s i d e s t o it: t h e
domestic science and the art side. This was s t a r t e d way
back there by some people -- I think there were some women
behind it; i t w a s made f o r the g i r l s , d e f i n i t e l y .
Did i t start with Mary Patterson?
I kind of think i t was before that. I think she was
brought i n as the person t o do the art side. Then they
had the cooking and dressmaking s i d e , and they had some
courses on simple house planning and n u t r i t i o n and t h a t
s o r t of thing. Sometime along i n there most of the scienc
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s i d e of i t went off i n t o home economics. Agnes Fay Morgan
was the head of that, and she d i d a very f i n e job. She
was chosen one of the University research lecturers. That
department was put i n agriculture.
That l e f t the art s i d e over here and they had courses
i n dressmaking, weaving, etc. The dressmaking was the
strange one; weaving is art, a l l r i g h t -- well, I suppose
dressmaking i s too, but a f t e r a l l , [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ] They had
design courses taught by Miss Patterson following the mode
of design instruction of Denman Ross, (You remember, t h a t
was the eource of the big quarrel between her and Neuhaus,
how design should be taught. )
They got Miss Cladding here and s h e was a swell person.
Miss Menard w a s good -- she eventually went t o Mills. Miss
Gladding was one of the f i n e s t they had then. And then a
queer attachment w a s Miss OtNeall, a very able scholar i n
anthropology, studying weaving, basketry, and t h a t s o r t of
thing. She wrote a f i n e book; she w a s a good scholar.
W
h
y she wasn't i n anthropology-rather than decorative art
I don't know. She might as well have been. So i t was a
queer agglomeration, you see, of women. They were n o t
altogether women's subjects, Weaving I suppose could be
c a l l e d that, but the kinds of various sorts of design,
other than design f o r painting, were there, and that was
l o g i c a l l y q u i t e separate from the dressmaking; the former
belonged i n the art department. They made up a kind of
a second-class department i n various subjects through there.
Early i n m
y chairmanship, when Louderback was dean of
L e t t e r s and Science, he had m
e in. They could see the art
department was going a l l right. H
e said, l l I s n t t i t true
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t h a t the decorative art department is an anomaly? Wouldn't
i t be b e t t e r i f t h i s were attached t o art?"
"It's an a n ~ r n a l y , ~
1 s a i d , "but preserve m
e from taking
Miss Patterson i n t o the art department while Eugen Neuhaus
is a c t i v e , j u s t when we're g e t t i n g peace." [ ~ a u g h i n ~ ]
"Well," he said, "1 think we'd b e t t e r j u s t kind of l e t
t h a t department die out."
They were a l l g e t t i n g along i n age a b i t , except Miss
Gladding. Miss Cladding was a good painter, she could have
come i n t o art, a l l r i g h t , and she was appreciated. A l l the
art department liked her. Miss O'Neall would have f i t t e d
i n t o anthropology easily. So if w
e 'd j u s t wait t i l l the
dressmaking l a d i e s got old so t h a t they would be r e t i r i n g ,
a d Miss Patterson would r e t i r e , and i f they didnt t take
any =ore people i n t o the department, why then there would
be two o r three people t o come i n t o art, and Miss U'Neall
i n t o anthropology, and a l l would be hunky-dory and f i n e ,
Miss O'Neall was chairman at the time, and Louderback
had her come i n with m
e t o a conference. And she a l s o
s a i d [pepper laughing], "Oh, don't t e l l t h i s t o Miss
Patterson, the way she is, j u s t l e t ' s wait." So there
was an understanding t h a t t h i s department would be allowed
t o die out and then we would, when the proper time came,
amalgamate those who were l e f t i n t o e i t h e r anthropology
o r art. There was nothing i n writing about i t , and t h a t
was a mistake. It w a s just a verbal understanding.
Deutsch, who was provost knew about it, Hildebrand was
~ u s t
appointed as dean i n 1939; I don't know whether he
knew it. I didn't think much about i t at a l l , 1 ,just
, Peppers
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thought i t was understood t h a t :veld w a i t , and I was just
waiting t i l l the time would come vhen Miss Patterson should
r e t i r e t o bring i t t o the a t t e n t i o n of the dean a t the
time.
But then "Sailort1 Davis became dean of L e t t e r s and
Science i n 1948. I had no idea t h a t I w a s going t o be
heading i n t o trouble with Davis, but looking back I can
see the motivation very clearly. Davis is a s o r t of a
farmer-type man, a very e f f e c t i v e cornitteeman, one of the
younger oligarchs, a g r e a t friend of the crowd. I favored
h i s being appointed dean, i n f a c t . I was approached by a
member of the comrni t t e e t o advise the president and asked
if I would take the job [dean]. This member t o l d me i f I
would accept nomination that was a l l there would be t o
i t , I said, vNo," I didn't want to be dean, and then I
supported Davis, which is kind of i r o n i c a l as things turned
out.
Unfortunately, Davis painted. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
He never
d i r e c t l y attacked the art department because we were too
strong and too successful, but I ' m sure that he f e l t
there w a s a much sounder a r t going on c l o s e r t o the grass
roots, and the decorative art d e p a r t ~ e n tseemed to him fine.
I t r i e d to explain t o him the condition of the decorative
a r t department, and I 1 m q u i t e sure the net impression he
got was t h a t t h i s big, powerful a r t group was k i l l i n g
t h i s f i n e decorative arts movement, and he would come t o
the rescue of the ladies. Which he proceeded t o do. I
didn't realize what he was up to, and i t was too l a t e when
I did. I discovered that they were beginning t o f i l t e r i n
Pepperr 	 l e c t u r e r s , a s s i s t a n t s , and then once i n a while a regular
s t a f f member.
Riess: 	 So things were f a t t e n i n g up.
Pepper : Things were f a t t e n i n g up. F i n a l l y things came t o a head.
When I began t o s e e what was going on I wrote him and s a i d
t h a t t h i s wasn't m
y understanding of how things were t o go
and t h a t t h i s was a r a t h e r dangerous development; there was
no end t o what might be done i n c r a f t s and such-like.
A t U C U they had developed t h e i r art departaent out of
the kind of art t h a t the s t a t e teacher's college had been
-1ving and t h a t was j u s t jammed f u l l of c r a f t s , and
jewelry, etc. Ceramics 1 always supported. Oh, you know,
there a r e no l i m i t s t o the various kinds of c r a f t s t h a t
were done. This was not within the dignity of a univer-
s i t y t o be doing.
But the big point 1 was making was t h a t i t was some-
thing t h a t had been s e t t l e d years before. I n f a c t , i f you
look back it had, t o a considerable extent, been s e t t l e d
i n the e a r l y committee on policy regarding art and music.
And t h a t policy is t h a t the p r a c t i c e courses i n these
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s u b j e c t s should be such t h a t the p r o f i t i n appreciation
t h a t came from the p r a c t i c e tothe student vas high. And
where the manipulative c r a f t was dominant and the appre-
c i a t i o n r a t h e r low we would keep those out. So i t was
understood t h a t painting, sculpture, and I think ceramics,
i n the v i s u a l arts were c l e a r l y c o r r e c t , and possibly w i t h
some h e s i t a t i o n , weaving. But the regular l i n e c r a f t s we
would not go i n for.
Pepper: . I n ulusic they would not s e i up a conservatory. Composi-
tion was the s o r t of thing i n the creative side that increased
creation to a maximum, -and .the s k l l l was a l l t o the benefit
of the creation. But learning t o play a piano or a violin,
a f l u t a or what-not, the technical e f f o r t was out of a l l
proportion t o the appreciative side. So you see our music
department again is d i f f e r e n t from UCLA. There was no con-
servatory attached t o it.
Riess: . Were there some p a r a l l e l s to t h i s i n dramatics?
Pepper: That is more d i f f i c u l t to judge. I ' m a f r a i d that Harris
was following t h i s principle a l i t t l e b i t too much. Acting
I think w
e would regard as d e f i n i t e l y creative, but what
would correspond t o the c r a f t and conservatory business
would be stage-lighting, stage-costuming, and s e t design,
probably, though that would be on the border. W
e wouldn't
have professors i n the stage-craft business, you see.
Another thing about music is t h a t where they go i n
hard f o r the musical techniques -the number of the performer
,
s t a f f outweigh the composers and you get, i n a democratic
mode of running things, a very bad potential setup f o r the
.-
health of the department, The same thing could happen i n
the arts; these c r a f t s could multiply indefinitely and if
you have a professor i n each, why, you g e t the same s o r t
of thing.
So t h a t was a l l argued out i n the committee on art
policy i n the t h i r t i e s . But of course M
r
. Gavis had never
heard ajout any of t h i s , and the reports were buried deep.
I don't know but what I brought out some of those reports
and handed them t o him, but i t was too late. He knew
pepper: b e t t e r . So there was plenty of warning given, and in a
I
c e r t a i n why i t didn't need t o be any concern of mine if
t
, he wanted t o do t h i s kind of thing and, t o m
y mind, baste
I
University money. But I f e l t responsible.
And i t came t o a head i n a committee f o r the appoint-
I
I
J mcnt of one of these craftsnien. I think i t m y have been
a promotion from a non-tenure t o a tenure position. A t
any r a t e , i t was a good case t o make an i s s u e on, Glenn
f Vessels was on t h i s c o r n i t t e e , and I, Glenn, you see, w
e
kere grooming f o r possible next chairmanship of the art
department. I n f a c t , we'd brought him i n f o r t h a t recson.
A former talented graduate of the University art department,
he'd shoiin a g r e a t deal of administrative a b i l i t y at Pull-
man, was very prominent up there i n humanities developments.
I
A t any r a t e , by chance o r otherwise, the Budget Cornittee
put him on the committee along with me. Come t o think of
i t , I don't think there were more than three on the commit-
tee, s o i t nust have been a promotion i n the non-tenure
rank. But a t any r a t e i t was s i g n i f i c a n t as establishing
.-
t h i s person on the ladder, s o t o speak. K i s s Gladding, I
now r e c a l l , was the t h i r d of the committee. And I must
hzive been i t s chairman,
Glenn and I talked the thing over and deoidcd t h a t --
with the background I ' v e sketched -- the a c t i o n f o r 4s to
take was t h a t w
e f e l t t h a t w
e could not judge on t h i s posi-
t i o n u n t i l we had authorization from a s p e c i a l c~inmitteet o
considcr the s t a t u s of t h e decorative &rt department i n re-
l ~ t i o n
t o the University because t h i s was the kind of posi-
t i o n t h a t depended on t h a t policy. So, with us two as the
pepper: majority, we s e n t i n t h a t report. W
e got a very peremptory
l e t t e r back from the de'an saying t h a t w
e were n o t asked t o
discuss the policy of matters i n the College of L e t t e r s and
Science. W
e were requested t o judge on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
person's f i t n e s s f o r promotion, Glenn and I replied t h a t
we would n o t do it. So they appointed another committee a
n
1
probably i t went through. I don't think there was any r e a l
question granted the policy of developing a crafts depart-
ment. I think t h i s person was good enough i n whatever the
' l i n e was. The ~ u e s t i o nw a s about the l i n e .
This w a s a deelaration of war, s o t o speak, So I took
an extreme measure, and I don't believe any l e s s e r measure
would have been any more e f f e c t i v e under the circumstances,
I thought, 'We'll bring t h i s thing r i g h t t o a head." So 1
wrote a l e t t e r t o bavis -- and I think the art department
authorized m
e t o do it; I think i t came not simply from me
personally, but as chairman of the art department -- recom-
mending t h a t the decorative arts department be dissolved
and t h a t the tenured teachers be taken c a r s of i n the way
t h a t was e a r l i e r intended. Miss Patterson had r e t i r e d by
.-	 then. What would happen t o the non-tenured people would
have to wait t o be seen.
Well, decorative arts had forgotten a l l about the
early t a l k s , though Miss Gladding and Miss OtNeall had
known &bout them. Miss O'Neall, if she remembered, did
n o t remember i t the way I did, And then here was t h i s
g r e ~ t
art department and Pepper, " t h i s empire-builder,"
trying t o absorb t h i s l i t t l e group of helpless females.
But a committee was formed. It was formed r e l u c t a n t l y ,
i, pepper:
i
I,
I
,'
and i t was c r e s t e d i n the f a l l o f 1949, a very clever time,
because i t was known t h a t I was going t o be tezching on a
v i s i t i n g professorship a t I l l i n o i s i n the s p r i n g o f 1950
and would have time only f o r one meeting, Linforth was on
the comnittee. The chairuan was iied Brewer of the German
departnent. It was a vbry c a r e f u l l y s e l e c t e d comnittee,
one t h a t the art department and I could not possibly f i n d
f a u l t with. Ned Brewer was a good f r i e n d of ~ i n e ;Linforth
was from ny stand-by couiaittee, hc~dbeen chairman of it;
Elkas had been p a r t of a team with me i n constructive f i n e
arts 	
p o l i c i e s .
However, on t h a t c o ~ i t l i t i e ea l s o wrrs Garillti Marsh, and
ha W ~ Sa nan I knew would n o t be a friend. He was very
cloao i n with Davis and I think was a s s i s t a n t dean a t t h a t
time. A t any r a t e , they were hand i n hand. And Xarsh was
a l s o chairman of speech, another s o r t of "minor" department.
A very :tLle p o l i t i c i a n , a f i n e speaker, very smart, and
a[;gressive. He put m
e i n the wronc r i g h t off a t the start
-
of t h s t one meeting, very c l e v e r l y , and I kick myself f o r
n o t having been a b l e t o be quick enough to block i t off.
.-
B u t r e a l l y , he s e t the thing going a g a i n s t the art depart-
ment r i g h t then and there a t t h a t f i r s t meeting, with Glenn
2nd n;e there t e s t i f y i n g .
Whdt I intended t o do a t t h a t meeting was l a y o ~ t
the
h i s t o r y of t h i s thing and explain about the t a l k with
Loaderback. I had hardly g o t s t a r t e d when P?c;rsh came i n
with soLe p e r t i n e n t questions, given q u i t e strongly, but
t h e y were a s i d e from t n s l i n e I was taking. And then he
p l i e d m
e with o t h e r questions, s o t h a t I never g o t to t h a t
--
1
j Pepper:
1
i
i
1
I
sequence. I never had another shince. I did have quite a
l o t of dacumentation t h a t went in, but t h a t ' s a d i f f e r e n t
thin;; from d i r e c t t a l k . The cards were stacked a g a i n s t u s
anyhow. A s I say, i t was a f i f t y - f i f t y chance a t beat,
when you a r e going a g a i n s t a dean who is supporting a group
who many people f e e l a r e being browbeaten. You're i n a
very hard position, e s p e c i a l l y with the dean protecting
them.
Anyway, then I went t o I l l i n o i s , and along i n the
middle of the s p r i n g I had a r e p o r t from brewer esking i f
I had eny more t o say, t h a t t h i s was the p o s i t i o n of the
cornittee, t h a t t h e department was j u s t i f i a b l e and t h a t i t
was not advisable t o h i t c h i t up with the art department.
By this time f e e l i n g was s o s t r o n g t h a t even Miss Gladding
-- one of the saddest things t h a t I thought I had t o do
t h e r e was t o say t h a t I didn't think t h a t the kind of
thing Miss Gladding, who's a sweet l i t t l e person, was
doing was awfully imgortant i n a university. So I l o s t
h e r f r i e n d s h i p f o r many years.- She d e f i n i t e l y f e l t t h a t
I was a p o l i t i c i a n w i l l i n g t o s a c r i f i c e her ahd a l l those
people t o the ambitionsof the art department.
Well, t h a t ' s t h a t s t o r y ,
I!
5
THE LOYALTY OATH*
!
1Pepper: There is an i n t e r e s t i n g preliminary point about the loyalty
oath business. I was a v i s i t i n g professor a t the University
of I l l i n o i s i n the apring of 1949. That's when the oath
matter came t o a head, just a t the end of the semester of
1949, and McCarthy vas going strong. I was on a committee
reaarding a new appointment i n the philosophy department
I a t Harvard. They have the system a t Harvard, f o r major
appointments, of g e t t i n g men from outside t o advise the
president. Not many universities could do that, but
Harvard can g e t away with it.
1 was invited t o come there, and the president had m
e
at h i s house. A t breakfast the day a f t e r the meeting I
came f o r I asked Conant i f a t Harvard they had been making
any preparation as t o what they'd do i f the college got at-
'tacked i n any way. And he s a i d , *We know j u s t what w e ' l l
do. W
e hope t o God we'll not g e t i n t o any trouble, but w
e
know what we'll do. ~ e . w o n ' tgive in."
And i t was not long a f t e r t h a t , and t h i s is very
illuminating, t h a t a wealthy man i n Delaware who had
promised t h e university a million wrote t o Conant and s a i d
t h a t he would not give h i s million unless they got r i d of
Harlow Shapley, the astronomer, a public f i g u r e who'd been
very open i n h i s extreme l i b e r a l ideas. He j u s t recently
Subsequent t o the interview M
r
. Pepper hzs written a
calendar'of events on the l o y s l t y oath covering the period
from January 1949 t o April 21, 1950 which is appended t o
t h i s manuscript. [ ~ d . ]
Pepper: died. And the president immediately wrote t h i s p o t e n t i a l
donor saying t h a t the t r a d i t i o n of Harvard Universi t y had
been such t h a t they would never give i n t o pressure of
t h i s kind; they have found t h a t i n the long run t h e i r
reputation and t h e i r money was on a s a f e r b a s i s with the
freedom of the faculty. And the president of the board of
t r u s t e e s followed t h i s up; they h i t hard a t once and they
never had any more trouble.
Then, t o my g r e a t chagrin, I found t h a t the regents
were proposing an oath here. I g o t word of t h i s by news-
paper and correspondence. W
e didn't g e t back u n t i l the
f a l l , and meantime the first f l u r r y had taken place.
Now, as 1 g e t the thing, t h i s i s the s t o r y , secondhand.
A young philosophy-trained a s s i s t a n t professor i n speech
named Tussman had notioed, hidden away i n the Bulletin, a
statement t h a t the f a c u l t y was going t o be expected t o take
an oath the following year. He brought i t t o the a t t e n t i o n
of s e v e r a l others, among them Tolman. This wasn't put i n
, 	 the B u l l e t i n u n t i l May when the University vas about t o
break up f o r the summer. The last meeting of the Academic
.-	 Senate i s generally a very formal thing a d most of the
men a r e already gone. Its chief function f o r years has
been simply t o c e r t i f y the students f o r graduation and
a t t e n d t o other minor things t o close up.the year. This
is 	
a l l t h a t is l e f t .
But there was a p r e t t y good attendance of the f a c u l t y
there -- everybody, I guess, came that was around -- and
Tolman took the important leadership and made a motion t h a t
they should memorialize the regents t h a t the f a c u l t y vas
1
pepper:
8
I
4
t:
j

4
Riess:
opposed t o an oath* And the faculty, as I understand, was
p r a c t i c a l l y t o a man i n favor of t h i s motion u n t i l somebody
g o t up, whom I don't know, and did something which i n
f a c u l t y terms, dealin.? with f a c u l t y members i n our own
administration, would have been a r e a l l y p e r f e c t l y f e a s i b l e
thing, but n o t when you're dealing with businessmen. H
e
s a i d , " I s n ' t t h i s r a t h e r d r a s t i c , t o memorialize the
regents t h a t the f a c u l t y is opposed t o t h i s , period?
Hadn't w
e b e t t e r qualify i t a l i t t l e b i t , and..."
The n e t e f f e c t of t h i s was t h a t they decided t h a t they
should discuss the matter with the regents through an
advisory committee, Unfortunately t h i s was accepted,
unfortunately because I have heard -- again through rumor,
but I think a p r e t t y good kind of rumor -- t h a t a member
of the regents had s a i d t h a t if a f l a t memorial s t a t i n g
the f a c u l t y was opposed t o the oath had come t o them they
would have recognized i t ,
Now, t h i s Advisory Committ e e -- J o e l Hildebrand, Ben
Iiehman, and Harry Walker from Davis, a man who's kind of
dropped out of s i g h t , though Lehman and Hildebrand were
v e r y ~ o m i n e n tmen at the time and, of course, s t i l l a r e --
t h i s committee gave the regents the impression, and I don't
know but what the committee may have thought they had the
authority, t h a t they were a b l e t o arrange with the regents
what the f a c u l t y would do on t h i s thing. They suggested
something i n the nature, however, of a compromise by which
the f a c u l t y would take a s o r t of oath, milder than t h e one
t h a t had first been proposed, but an oath nevertheless.
Wasn' t the Advisory Committ e e p a r t of the regular Academic
: Riess: 	 Senate r o s t e r of committees, n o t just created t o meet t h i s
s i t u a t i o n ? I n 1948-49 i t w
a
s Hildebrand, Lehmaqand Walker
and i n 1949-50 t h e members were Dennes, Lehman, and Walker.
Pepper: M
y r e c o l l e c t i o n would be t h a t the Lehman, Hildebrand, and
i Walker committee was appointed o f f the Senate f l o o r at t h a t
time, though of course I wasn't here then. But i n t h a t
case, as you desoribe it, t h e Senate must have authorized
t h i s committee t o d e a l with the regents. It would be a
n a t u r a l committee t o do so. To a l l appearances it was a
well-chosen group.
Then when they came back with a r e p o r t of what they
had thought would be a l l r i g h t and t h e Senate j u s t repu-
d i a t e d i t t h a t l e d to the trouble with the regents because
t h e regents thought t h a t t h i s committee had power t o act
which the Senate d i d n ' t t h i n k they had -- t h a t what they
d i d would commit t h e Senate, and the Senate had no such
idea. The regents, o r Neylan at least, f e l t they had a
r e a l case now and they couldn't t r u s t the faculty. And I
guess some of the regents, Neylan among them, were very
w i l l i n g to make t h e most advantageous i n t e r p r e t a t i o n s f o r
-- them.
The committee never had the a u t h o r i t y , but the v o t e
w a s taken i n such a way t h a t i t could have been regarded
perhaps as ambiguous as t o what t h e i r function was. The
f a c u l t y was under the impression -- and t h i s impression
was emphasized [laughing] when they g o t back n o t what they
l i k e d -- t h a t these people were under no a u t h o r i t y t o make
a deal f o r which the f a c u l t y would be responsible -- I
I	
c a n ' t imagine t h a t t h e f a c u l t y would have made such a
Peppert motion anyhow -- but that the Advismy Committee was to go
and f i n d out -- t h i s was a p o l i t e way of t e l l i n g the regents
that we didn't l i k e i t -- and then they would come back with
an arrangement with the regents which then would be put up
to the faculty, I n other words, i t was subject t o the
approval of the faculty, whatever w a s done,
I have no recollection here, but I had j u s t assumed
t h a t then t h a t committee went out of existence, but appar-
e n t l y not. Well, i t certainly didn't function any more.
From then on there was just one s e r i e s a f t e r another
of jockeyings between the f a c u l t y and the regents. The
next r e a l functioning person was Malcolm Davisson. The
main burden of communication with the regents through the
f a l l f e l l upon him, Davisson w a s chosen -- he was i n the
economics department -- because he had had law training, and
the people, whoever they were who were kind of guiding things
then, f e l t t h a t he was the most able, dealing with a lawyer
l i k e Neylan, to handle t h i s thing f o r the faculty, and he
was a young man and had the energy t o do it,
H
e was appointed by the C-mmittee on Committees, of
which a t t h a t time a great friend of his, Kidner, who has
s t i l l remained very p-ominent i n p o l i t i c s here, always j u s t
s h o r t of the top level, was chairman. And i t was, s o t o
speak, on h i s s p e c i a l request t h a t Davisson took i t over,
Kidner t o l d Davisson a t the time that he thought i t would
put him i n a very bad s i t u a t i o n f o r future promotions and
advancements, but Davisson said, "Okay, f o r the good of
the University and the cause 1'11 do it," and as a matter
of fact, i t was a great s a c r i f i c e ,
i
i
pepper: I've never quite understood why some members of the
faculty didn't f e e l more indebted to him than they did.
Nothing came out of i t , of course. And i t nearly broke h i s
health f o r a time. He was i n bad shape a f t e r t h a t thing was
over. Oh, i t was a very painful s i t u a t i o n f o r Davisson and
he came out Number Two enemy of the regents according t o
Neylan, Sproul being Number One.
Another point -- again t h i s i s from rumor, but I think
p r e t t y r e l i a b l e -- is that Neylan's a i m through here had
very l i t t l e t o do with loyalty oaths, but w a s t o g e t r i d of
Sproul.
The s i t u a t i o n , as I understand it, was t h i s , going back,
t h a t i n the spring of 1949 we were i n d i f f i c u l t y with our
budget, Corley, who had t o deal w i t h l e g i s l a t o r s a t Sacra-
mento -- and w i t h a l l of the McCarthy thing gaing on, they
were accusing the University of being a bunch of Reds --
Corley, i n order to g e t the budget through -- which was
asking f o r some cgnsiderable increase -- needed the votes
of a number of the l e g i s l a t o r s who were on the fence. And
Corley told these fellows t h a t there were not a bunch of
Reds a t the Jniversity; many were no doubt l i b e r a l , but
ours was a loyal American faculty. He asked them one time
i n these discussions what would convince them t h a t t h i s was
a loyal faculty, and they s a i d , "An oath, Communkts don't
take oaths." That was the idea; t h a t ' s how you can t e l l a
loyal American from a Comaunist. [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
"Well, okay, they'll take oaths.* And he reported h i s
finding to Sproul, who accepted it. However, Sproul must
have f e l t a l i t t l e uncomfortable about i t because there w a s
Pepper: 	 no notice of t h i s except i n the back pages of the May
Bulletin, you see.
Another rumor here, which again I think is probably
r e l i a b l e , is t h a t when Sproul announced t o the regents
t h a t the f a c u l t y would take an oath, Heylan had remarked
that he thought t h i s was a darned f o o l idea, t h a t he d i d n ' t
think the f a c u l t y would take an oath. Sproul s a i d he
thought they would. Then Neylan saw h i s chance t o g e t the
f a c u l t y t o g e t Sproul out.
Riess: 	 Oh, but I still don't understand why he personally was a f t e r
Sproul.
Pepper: 	 That's a long s t o r y t h a t goes back behind. Here I have a
l i t t l e more o r l e s s d i r e c t evidence from the former not
c o n t r o l l e r , but the man who was p a r a l l e l t o the c o n t r o l l e r
i n the business o f f i c e there, a very f i n e Swede, Olof
Lundberg. He confided i n me somewhat. i-ie was a strong
f a c u l t y sympathizer so i t was a g r e a t s u r p r i s e t o me when
he t o l d m
e one time t h a t he f e l t t h a t Neylan was r a t h e r
-
j u s t i f i e d i n his opposition t o Sproul, as a r e s u l t of some
concealments of h i s , o r apparent concealments, from the
regents of c e r t a i n funds. A t any r a t e , i t was p r e t t y well
known t h a t Neylan was against Sproul f o r soms time, and
headed a graup of regents who a l s o were not s a t i s f i e d
with Sproul. But Neylan had almost a personal h o s t i l i t y
t o him, and t h i s c e r t a i n l y developed with g r e a t c l a r i t y
i n the b a t t l e . W
e saw q ~ i t e
a b i t of Sproul personally
over t h i s time and i t was q u i t e c l e a r t h ~ t
there was more
than the p r i n c i p l e of the l o y a l t y oath involved; there w a s
a feud between these two men.
i
i Ries-s: Now, S j ~ r o u lmight, of course, l i k e Conant, have s a i d , "No,
w
e '11 have none of t h i s .
Pepper: Exactly. If he had done t h a t i t would have been something
f of a gamble.
, Riess: Financially?
Pepper: \Jell, i t c o s t the University s g r e a t dgal more than t h e l o s s
of whatever i t was, some half a million d o l l a r s or so. A s
i t turned out, i t was a t e r r i f i c temporary blow t o the
University.
Riess: I wonder if he'd known about Conant's precedent.
Pepper: Well, he j u s t simply knew t h i s , t h a t Conant had made a per-
sonal appeal t o him while t h e r e was s t i l l time to take a
stand. W
e begged him, in the Committee of Seven i n which
I became involved, t o admit he'd made a mistake and stand
with the f a c u l t y , but i f you view i t from the point of view
of a personal feud you can s e e why he wouldn't want t o do
that. It would be admitting t o Neylan t h a t Neylan was
,right and he was wrong. But from h i s own point of view,
he would have been a n a t i o n a l f i g u r e of magnificent propor-
tions had he done that. a u t i f my rumors a r e c o r r e c t about
t h i s , he had already l e t himself i n f o r some trouble and i t
would have taken r e a l l y q u i t e a big man t o have admitted he
made a mistake.
N
o f a c u l t y man as president would have l e t himself i n
f o r the thing t h a t Corley recommended, i f the rumor's r i g h t .
You have a f e e l i n g he j u s t wouldnBt; academic freedom means
too much. And, of course, Conant is a f a c u l t y man. This
is where the weakness of a non-faculty lnan as president
Pepper; showed up, because he was a swell p r e s i d e n t with regard t o
the f a c u l t y except f o r t h i s one major mistake.
Riess: You mentioned Tolman taking a s t a n d e a r l y in t h i s thing.
Pepper: Tolman took h i s s t a n d and i n the course of h i s first c r u c i a l
speech he s a i d he would never take an oath. Which, by the
way, accounts f o r h i s uncompromising p o s i t i o n , a p a r t from
h i s being a Quaker. It was a b s o l u t e l y impoesible f o r him
t o accept any compromise under those conditions. And i t f s
j u s t as well w
e had a few men t h a t were t h a t way; I think
t h a t ' s f i n e .
Riess: Weren't t h e r e a g r e a t many men who f e l t t h a t way at t h e be-
ginning?
Pepper: Yes, I think probably t h e r e were a good many.
Howevar, t h e amazing thing t o me, with the r a t h e r luke-
warmness toward t h e taking of the oath business t h a t a
l a r g e p a r t of t h e f a c u l t y , f o r i n s t a n c e t h e engineers, f e l t ,
is the way these very men stood behind the p r i n c i p l e when
they understood it. It is j u s t simply amazing. It was a
very small number t h a t d i d n o t cooperate with t h e main
d r i y e t o block t h i s o a t h business, a t least i n its r a d i c a l
form.
The f a c u l t y s t a n d was u t t e r l y unpopular i n t h e state.
Yet i t wasn't taking t h e oath t h a t was the i s s u e ; i t was a
f a c u l t y being asked t o take an oath by the r e g e n t s of t h e
University, which had i m p l i c a t i o n s with regard t o academic
freedom. That's where the i s s u e was. This is a d i s t i n c -
t i o n very hard f o r t h e g e n e r a l p u b l i c t o see. Any of u s
whofve been i n the army have taken the s t r o n g e s t p o s s i b l e
--
Pepper:
1i
Riess:
; Pepper:
i
1 Riess:
, , , '
, , ( Pepper:
I

oath; i f you'll take an oath i n the army, why won't you take
i t f o r the University? It looked completely unreasonable.
The only newspaper around here, and I don't know but what
the only important newspaper i n the s t a t e that stood up f o r
us r i g h t through, was the Chronicle.
Well, now, Malcolm Davisson took the brunt of t h i s f o r
a good many months.
He was chairman of the Conference Conmittee?
Yes, the Conference Cornnittee, a. second committee made up of
Dsvisson, Cordon, Hildebmnd, 2nd Stanley. It w a s the com-
mittee t h a t was now supposed t o be dealing with the thing.
I t wzs appoint06 by the Academic Senate?
I suppose so, probably off the floor. [ ~ c t u a l l y
by the Com-
m i t t e e on Cornhi ttees. SCP]
Then there was a l s o at thistime another group consisting
of the deans and chairmen of dep2rtments. And t h i s must have
been a s o r t of self-appointed graup. O r rather, I think t h a t
Davisson convened i t as a representctive group he could con-
s u l t with -- l e s s unwieldy than the whole Senate. I t got t o
be known as the Committee of 51. Because I was chairman of
the art department I was a member of that group. The Confer-
ence Committee would periodically meet with t h i s Committee of
51 and Davisson would report. It wcs r e a l l y Davisson who was
carrying the whole thing. I don't seem to remember Gordon,
Hildebrand, Stanley doing very much here. Davi sson would
report t o the Connittee of 51 on these conferences. I
should say t h a t these meetings of the Cornmi t t e e of 51 were
a l l through the f a l l of 1949 up t o March 7 when the Commit-
tee of Seven was appointed. You see, t h a t gave quite a
Pepper: long i n t e r v a l for Davisson t o be doing what he could as
Conference Committee chairman.
Riess: The members of the Committee of 51 were representing the
thinking of t h e i r departments?
Pepper: 	 I t was the f a c u l t y administrative group, department chairmen
and deans. They had a seni-official position i n t h i s thing.
You see, the whole Senate would be too much t c b r i n g togeth-
e r but you could very quickly g a t h e r these chairmen together.
W
e were i n hopes t h a t Davisson would come out with
something. But the compromise attempts a l l broke down
between Davisson and Neylan sometime l a t e i n 1949 or e a r l y
i n 1950. That's where I begin t o come i n t o t h e scene --
[ laughing] along with some others, I mean, I had had no
prominent place i n there before.
Riess: 	 February 24 the regents voted f o r "sign o r g e t out."
Pepper: That brought i t t o a climax. That put the Conference Com-
mittee out of being, so t o speak. I t hadn't succeeded.
Now, t h e r e ' s one other thing. What came t o be known
l a t e r as the Non-signers had come i n t o being. [permanent
but i n f o r g a l organization dated 30 November 1949. (p. 35)]*
-(I don't know what Stewart means by t h a t . H
e also 301
g i v e s June 27 as the first meeting of the group. Perhaps
Frank Newman was e l e c t e d chairmsn on November 30 and the
group s o l i d i f i e d somewhat at t h a t d a t e , ) This consisted of
the group i n the f a c u l t y who were most intense, the more
l i b e r a l group. Tolman was i n it, and a l l of the eventual
non-signers. I n fact i t was c a l l e d t h e Non-signers Group
*Page references i n t h i s chapter are t o the Year of the Oath
by George Stewart, Doubleday & Co., New York 1950.
Pepper: 	 f o r containing many men of t h a t intention. I t was only a
semi-developed organization, an ad hoc s o r t of thing. Yet
they were the most intense and p e r s i s t e n t group of a l l
the non-loyalty oath people, and I was i n with t h a t bunch
a t once, and y o u ' l l see t h a t t h a t had something important
t o do with m
y r e l a t i o n s with them l a t e r .
I t was i n the f a l l of 1949, when I came back, t h a t I
joined up with them a t once, and they 'had j u s t appointed,
i f I a m c o r r e c t , the present dean of the l a w school, Frank
Newman, who was a very young law school man a t t h a t time,
as chairman of t h i s Non-signers Group. Now, i n some respect:
t h a t was the most important group i n the f a c u l t y because i t
w a s permanent, i t was s o l i d , and they c o n s t i t u t e d the back-
bone t h a t r e s i s t e d any s o f t n e s s r i g h t through from the be-
ginning t o the end. And they constituted a group t h a t was
l ~ r g e
enough t o be e f f e c t i v e ; t h e i r meetings would vary from
40 o r 50 t o a couple of hundred present. W
e used t o meet
i n the Faculty Club i n the double dining room there and i t
would sometimes be f i l l e d r i g h t up t o the r i m ; a t other
times, when things were not q u i t e s o exciting, i t would
- b o i l down t o 40 o r 50.
Riess: 	 On June 27th the first Non-signers meeting i n the Faculty
Club was held. [p. 301 The more permanent organization
came about i n November.
Pepper: 	 Yes. (However, s e e my note. [Pepper note i n parentheses,
p. 2681) And they were steady and f i r m t o the end. I n
f a c t , i t was absolutely e s s e n t i a l t h a t t h a t group be satis-
f i e d , a t l e a s t i n some degree, o r you were going t o have
very s e r i o u s ructions i n the faculty. That is, they were
1
i
j
1
:
i
Pepper:
I
I
I
Riessr
Pepper:
strong enough t o make any f i r m concession to the regents
impossible without t h e i r approval, and there were some
very good men i n the crowd. The more conservative kept
away; there were only two or three engineers i n it, f o r
instance. The engineers are a kind of typical, steady,
moderate group.
How about agriculture?
Agriculture about the same, but they were up at Davis.
Medicine, very much the same, but they were i n San Francisco,
UCLA was following Berkeley i n a somewhat scared way, so t h a t
sometimes they were more radical than Berkeley, as frightened
people sometimes are. They were not a very steady ally.
They were following Berkeley's lead mostly; the f i g h t was
centered here mainly, though there was good backing on a l l
the f i n a l issues from UCLA. They always were r i g h t behind,
and I don't know but what sometimes they were ahead of us.
But, though we may be mistaken, we f e l t t h a t we were carry-
ing on the main p a r t of the b a t t l e , although there were some
very strong men down there helping.
When I began t o have a finger i n t h i s there was the
Non-signers Group, of whom I was a d e f i n i t e member -- being
a close friend of Tolman's gave me a kind of marked place
there. Davisson had just gone out; the Conference Committee
had just gene out. There was the Committee of 51, the ad-
ministrative group.
One evening just before Davisson gave up conferring
w i t h Neylan he called a meeting i n Wheeler 312. A large
number of the faculty attended. He was feeling discouraged
and desperate. He s a i d he thought i f he could g e t some
Pepper: 	 very considerable number, 25 o r 3Ofk -- 500 or s o -- t o
agree t o q u i t if the oath was administered t h a t t h a t would
bring the regents t o t h e i r knees. But i t was soon obvious
the f a c u l t y was not ready f o r anything l i k e that. I think
t h i s r e f u s a l of the f a c u l t y t o take t h i s massive move
disappointed him deeply. But I ' m a f r a i d 1 am one of
those who don't think i t would have brought the regents
t o t h e i r knees. The regents i n power then meant Neylan,
and he had a majority, and I think personally he would
have been t i c k l e d t o death t o have t h i s , as he was now
beginning t o think "radical f a c ~ l t y , ~ And then
removed.
he could g e t i n some man f o r president l i k e General
M r t h u r , something of t h a t type, who would appoint a
new, good yes-man faculty. And Sproul out too. I think
a good many f e l t , as 1 did, t h a t Beylan would have loved
i t -- loved a massive resignation of our r e b e l l i o u s faculty.
Riess: Did Davisson a c t u a l l y resign from the University?
Pepper: Well, he came t o the conalusion t h a t h i s function w(is over
when t h i s regents' i n s i s t e n c e came out i n February. But
-	 he d i d n ' t resign from the University, and he w a s never a
non-signer. That marked the s o r t of termination of
Davisson's c e n t r a l job. He w a s always there f o r advice,
but he was now a marked man. H
e wisely refused t o take
any o f f i c i a l position i n dealing with anybody, regents o r
anyone e l s e , on the Committee of Seven. He was asked two
or three times t o do some kind of a job but he s a i d , "No,
I ' m too hot."
So i t was a f t e r t h a t meeting i n 312 Wheeler t h a t he
--
Pepper: c a l l e d a meeting of the Committee of 51 i n South Hall, H
e
s a i d h i s job was over and suggested t h i s c o r n i t t e e e l e c t a
committee of seven t o c a r r y on. This was the o r i g i n of
the Committee of Seven.* And t h i s committee was endorsed
by a l a r g e Senate meeting on March 7,. a t which time
~ a v i s s o n ' sConference Committee made its r e p o r t of no
success with the regents and asked t o be relieved.
The function of the Committee of Seven was t o g e t r i d
of the regents o a t h and g e t a statement. There were two
motions f o r a statement, you see, and our job was t o g e t
one of those statements accepted, Proposition No. 1, wasn't
i t ? And it was a statement t o the e f f e c t t h a t one took the
r e g u l a r s t a t e oath, because t h a t was a l l r i g h t , and then we
were supposed t o s i g n a statement t h a t we recognized, we
"understoodn -- that word w a s very important, we understood
o r recognized -- t h a t i t w a s the p o l i c y of the regents n o t
t o h i r e Coatmunists. And I think t h e r e was something i n
t h e r e about our n o t having been mixed up with Conmunists.
The Committee of Seven consisted of Hicks, chairman,
Sontag, Jenkins, Simpson, Evans, OIBrien, and myself. A l l
deans o r chairmen. They made Hicks chairman, which w a s a
good s e l e c t i o n . Simpson and I were the only ones of t h a t
crowd who were of the Non-signers Group. Simpson and I
and, i n a moderate way, Jenkins, were r e g u l a r a t t e n d e n t s
of t h e Non-signers Group. But Simpson was n o t as promi-
nent i n it as I was. Jenkins was r a t h e r lukewarm, Hicks
and. even Evans regarded t h a t group as r a t h e r dangerous.
*See appended calendar of events on the l o y a l t y oath by
Pepper f o r f u r t h e r c l a r i f i c a t i o n of t h e d a t e the Committee
of Seven came i n t o being,
--
Pepperr 	 Sontag was always thoroughly opposed t o i t , really. I think
h i s being a Catholic had some element i n there, though Evans
a l s o was a Catholic, but as Evans has often s a i d , " a bad
Catholic." [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
But Sontag is a very good Catholic,
and I think t h a t was i n f l u e n t i a l . However, he did, i n some
ways, t r y t o bring about some kind of moderation i n the
regents. And he was a very good m a n t o have on the committee
because he represented the most conservative s i d e of the
f a c u l t y t h a t was not i n our terms almost t r s i t o r o u s .
Riess: 	 I'm not s u r e what Catholicism would have t o do with it.
Pepper: 	 You'll f i n d t h a t the Catholics were r a t h e r behind McCarthy.
The Catholic Churah was. The Catholics, on the whole, seemed
t o think McCarthy was doing a f i n d job, and they, on the
whole, a r e r a d i c a l l y anti-Communist. So there is a r e a l
tie-up.
It turned out t h a t I was the go-between between the
Non-signers and the Committee of Seven. That's where I
was r e a l l y important i n t h i s set-up.
Riess: 	 What were the Non-signers expecting of you?
Pepper: 	 They were counting on me t o keep them informed of what was
going on i n the Committee of Seven, which I did, except
for a few things which were for b r i e f periods confidential.
That is, when we were about t o make some kind of a move
which we thought i f made public would not be beneficial,
then t h a t was confidential. One of the toughest jobs I
had was i n a terminal move where the Committee of Seven
thought t h a t we ought not t o l e t o u t s i d e r s know what we had
i n mind. I had t o ask them o on-signers] t o t r u s t me, and
t r u s t us, and as a matter of f a c t -- I think t n i s i s s t r a i g h t
-- I was the only man on the Committee of Seven whom they
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
f u l l y trusted. And even m
e they began t o wonder about.
I n addition t o tiiis regular Committee of Seven, there
were some men here who were very important. Kidner was
appointed as chs~irmanof publicity, not on the committee,
but t h a t appointment was by the Committee of 51. And E h i l i
G r i f f i n vas put on as expert i n p u b l i c i t y -- he was from
journalism. G r i f f i n and Kidner were t o do the publicity.
Jennings from the l a w school, another young man, was put
o n ' f o r l e g a l advice. Frank Newman was put i n as r e c i p i e n t
of funds, and t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g because he w a s a l s o chair-
man of the Non-signers. And Bob Brode was custodian of
funds because, you see, we went off campus. A 1 1 these
l a t e r men were non-signer men, more o r l e s s , and some of
them very strongly.
Now, I've got t o do a l i t t l e checking here. [ ~ o o k i n g
a t notes dated 31 March 19501
When the regents made t h e i r resolution the U.C.
f a c u l t y senate went i n t o a Conmittee of the F a c u l t i e s
session, passed a unanimous resolution a g a i n s t the imposi-
t i o n of the regents s p e c i a l oath i n favor of a mailed
b a l l o t on the compromise plan of the Conference Committee
headed by Malcoln Davison,
I thought t h a t Conference Committee was defunct.
I t was ( t h a t is, i t became s o a t t h a t meeting), but
apparently they had put i n a resolution.
Now, there's a t r a n s i t i o n i n there, A t a big meeting
Neylan had s a i d t h a t a l l he wanted of the f a c u l t y was a
vote t h a t they did not think t h a t Communists were proper
people t o teach there, and I think C.P. Adms made the
motion, and i t was passed as a resolution of the Senate.+
*
See Stewart, p. 147.
Pepper: But there was a real angry meeting on March 7th at
which the f a c u l t y went i n t o executive session and voted
t o s t a y off the campus i n executive session s o t h a t we
would n o t be hampered by the Senate's being responsible
t o the administration. Under t h a t j u r i s d i c t i o n the
Cornittee of Seven took up its o f f i c e s i n the Durant Hotel
and t h a t amazing organization took place which t o r
a
y rnind
was j u s t an astonishing evidence of a c e r t a i n kind of
emergency cupscity f o r order i n our people. And we
accumulated a considerable sun of money and then s t a r t e d
operations. '*'e were thinking of bringing l e g a l a c t i o n
a g a i n s t the regents, p a r t i c u l a r l y on the b a s i s of viola-
t i ~ n
of tenure. The l ~ w y e r swent i n t o t h a t , tnough, and
found we hzC no case.
So the C o m i t t e e of deveri w s s the o f f - c a p u s c o m i t t e e
of the Senzte i n executive order. The C o ~ m i t t e eof the
F a c u l t i e s wzs the Senate i n executive committee s t a t u s , and
ihey recognized as t h e i r s t e e r i n g c o m i t t e e the Committee
of Seven. And the Senate C o m i t t e e on Committees was
t
empowered, a c t i n g as a f'iculty committee, t o ,choose a new
-- C o w i t t e e of Four t o r e p l a c e . t h e Conference Committee
which resigned. I s n ' t t h a t i n t e r e s t i n g ?
The Cormittee on Cornittees publicly dodged the assign-
ment of appointing the C o n i t t e e of Four; i n other words,
they l e f t i t i n charge of the C o m i t t e e of Seven. However,
i n privhte, not divulged u n t i l March 29, they appointed a
new Conference Coliimittoe t o be ready if needed consisting
of Hicks, O'Brien, Davis, &nd Wellman. This is complicated.
1'11 give you the sequence: The Comnittee of Seven began
on March 7 [cf. Appended calendar of events by E'epper],
Pepper: 	 and t h i s was appointed by the Committee of 51 of deans and
chairmen. Then when t h e f a c u l t y went i n t o executive session
arch 71 they recognized the Committee of Seven as the
f a c u l t y s t e e r i n g committee. And a t the same time they
authorized the Senate Committee on Conuit t e e s t o appoint
a new Committee of Four. [ ~ e n s t e
meeting i n f a c t preceded
appointment of Committee of Seven by Committee of 51.1
Now, i n public the Committee on Committees empowered
Hicks, as chairman of the Committee of Seven, to appoint
such a committee. And Hicks appointed himself, Jenkins,
Simpson, and me. However, ~ r i v a t e l y ,which didn't come
out u n t i l nearly a month l a t e r when another i s s u e arose,
p r i v a t e l y a t t h i s time the Committee on Committees had
already appointed Hicks, 04Brien, Davis, and Wellman as
such a committee.
Riess: 	 So Hicks was the only person who knew.
Pepper: 	 No, Hicks didn'k know that; the Committee of Seven d i d n ' t
know that. Only the Committee on Cornittees knew it. Phis
l a y i n t h e i r minutes as a committee which was duly appointed
but which w b s n o t put i n t o action. The reason, I suppose,
'being t h a t the other uommittee, the Committee of Seven, was
not t h e i r appointuent. They d i d n ' t want t o give any outside
people the impression t h a t the Committee of Seven was not
t r u s t e d , because t h a t w a s public. So t h e i r device w a s t o
l e t Hicks appoint what apparently i n public w
a
s the
Committee of Your and then appointed t h e i r own Committee
of Pour which was t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t except t h a t Hicks was
on it. That second committee never went i n t o action.
So the Cornistee of Seven, a Committee of Four out of
Pepper: 	 the seven, and a s e c r e t Conference Committee constituted
the organization of the f a c u l t y which was off campus,
And the p e r f e c t l y amazing thing is the way t h a t t h i s
f a c u l t y organized. The o l a Senate w a s gone as far as they
were ooncerned. W
e were s e t t i n g up a f a c u l t y organization
off the campus. A whole government machinery emerged
i n s t i t u t e d i n i t s own, outside the regular University
machinery, and s e t up o f f i c e s i n the Hotel Lurant i n
Rooms 328 and 529, And those rooms were something, those
were amazing rooms. This was the o f f i c i a l , off-campus
fa.culty organization, and here was the c a p i t a l ,
Riess: 	 What was the reason f o r taking a c t i v i t i e s o f f campus?
Pepper: 	 So t h a t we would be p e r f e c t l y f r e e t o a c t i n our own way
as a f a c u l t y , Though the strange thing is, we were r e a l l y
representing the whole faculty. However, we did n o t want
t o be embarrassed by o r t o embarrass the administration by
being p a r t of the Senate which was under the regular a d ~ i n -
i s t r a t i o n of the University. I n other wcrds, the f a c u l t y
, wanted t o be f r e e to operate i n i t s own way, separzte from
the administrution of the University. This wzs an o u t r i g h t
-- d e c l a r a t i o n of war on the regents. For they had no
a u t h o r i t y over t h i s f a c u l t y off campus.
And so we hired these rooms and now, of course, we
needed money. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
That's why we had t o have the
fellow who receives funds and the fellow who is custodian
of funds. The f a c u l t y contributed a d we contributed, and
the word was s e n t out a l l over the country t h a t we needed
funk. Ue expected t o have q u i t e a f i g h t ; we expected t o
have t o support people who resigned. Punds came i n from
Pepper: 	 people on the s t r e e t , A lady met my wife i n Hink's and 

said, "Aren't you Mrs. Pepper?" And Ellen s a i d , "Yes." 

i
And s h e put a d o l l a r i n her hand and said, "I want you t o
give t h i s t o the Committee of Seven. " So, i t w i s q u i t e
exciting. The amazing thing is t h a t t h i s only l a s t e d a
I month. This Committee of Seven, representing the f a c u l t y
off campus, t h a t w 3 s running the b a t t l e , received contri-
1
butions up t o $7,000 without pressure. And sone l a r g e
i
i 	 o f f e r s were declinad temporarily. This was a l l within
I	 days!
j Riess: What were the p u b l i c i t y people doing, s i n c e the press
i generally was a g a i n s t the f a c u l t y point of view?
; Pepper: Well, the correspondent s t a f f of the Hearst papers were a l l
i with the f a c u l t y , but the e d i t o r i a l staff, of course, wzs
opposed, s o you'd f i n d statements r a t h e r favorable t o the
f a c u l t y i n the body of the news, then you'd f i n d i t f l a t l y
a n t i i n the e d i t o r i a l s . So they were useful. Ruth Newhall
was a correspondent f o r the Chronicle, and t h e i r e d i t o r a t
t h a t time, Paul Smith, who was one of their s t r o n g e d i t o r s ,
backed us up s t e a d i l y through t h i s business. The San
Frarlcisco News went along with us as far as i t could with
a l i b e r a l e d i t o r , but there was a conservative head of the
chain t h a t i t belonged to. Other papers were h o s t i l e ,
except f o r the r e p o r t e r s who on the whole sided with the
faculty.
There was i n t e n t of s t a r t i n g l e g a l action a g a i n s t t h e
regents on various bases, but t h a t w a s a thing f o r the
l e g a l people t o work out and i t w a s decided not t o start
l e g a l a c t i o n before the regents meeting on March 31. O
n
I
Pepper :
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

I
Pepper:
Riess:
March 28 a t a meeting of the Committee of Seven there was
a discussion of whether t o send any men t o Santa Barbara
t o be on hand i f the president should wish them t o appear.
Hicks was r a t h e r doubtful about i t , but he acquiesed under
pressure of the r e s t of the committee, and he and O'Brien
went down. O'Brien, you see, was dean of engineering, and
of a conservative s t a t e of mind, and Hicks was very steady
and r e l a t i v e l y conservative. I n f a c t , Hicks made a very
f i n e impression down there.
E a r l i e r i n t h a t month, on March 22, a vote of the f a c u l t y
was taken on a Proposition No. 1 and Proposition No. 2,
Yes, these had t o do with how much the f a c u l t y would be
w i l l i n g t o concede t o the regents.
[stewart, p. 371 "Proposition No. 1, presented by the
Conference Committee, provides t h a t f a c u l t y members, i n
a d d i t i o n t o t a k i n s the c o n s t i t u t i o n a l oath, s h a l l hence-
f o r t h i n d i c a t e acceptance of the regents' anti-Communist
policy as e x p l i c i t y s e t f o r t h i n f u t u r e contracts."
Proposition No. 2, moved from the f l o o r , "proposes the
adoption by the f a c u l t y i t s e l f of the policy t h a t 'proved
members of the Communist Party, by reason of such commit-
ments t o t h a t party, a r e n o t acceptable as members of the
f a c ~ l t y . ' ~
Yes, the b i g i s s u e through here w d s t o t r y t o g e t a n oath
t o ths e f f e c t t h a t we, the faculty, "understood" the posi-
tion of tha regents with regard t o Communists on the
fbculty, and something about being l o y a l Americans.
These propositions first came up on March 7, when a s e c r e t
mai1,ballot on the two questions was decided upon. On
Riess: 	 March 22 the r e s u l t s a r e i n and announced from both the
northern and southern s e c t i o n s of the Academic Senate.
nThe vote i s taken t o mean the end of the controversy, and
t h i s seems t o be borne out by statements of the regents."
But then on March 31, at S m t a Barbara, Neylan seems t o go
back on it. Stewart says, "This meeting is known i n f a c u l t y
c i r c l e s as the Santa Barbara Meeting, the Meeting of March
31, o r the Great Double-Crossen [p. 391
Pepper: 	 Yes, Neylan double-crossed the f a c u l t y time and time again.
The Committee of Seven folded up on an arrangement
which w a s understood t o be s a t i s f a c t o r y then t o the
regents, turning the a u t h o r i t y back t o the Senate, with
the appointment of a P u b l i c i t y Committee, of which Ed
Strong and Wellman were important members, and everything
seemed t o be about s e t t l e d there, though r a t h e r uncomfort-
a b l y f o r the Non-signers Group. Then,-when t h i s was a l l
over, some months l a t e r , Neylan again double-crossed the
faculty. And Hicks wrote a very s t r o n g l e t t e r about i t , a
copy of which I have here, by the way. This is w r i t t e n
' . about a 	month a f t e r Santa Barbara.
The a c t i v i t y of the Committee of Seven w a s between
about March 28th -- although i t w a s appointed on the 7 t h
128 ~ e b r u a r y ] ,which r e a l l y s u r p r i s e s me because i t was
s o s h o r t and i t seemed s o long -- j u s t preceding the 31st
meeting, f o r a month, u n t i l the 22nd of April. Ye thought
we had brought about a compromise t h a t was acceptable t o
the f a c u l t y and t h e regents, and t o a l l i n t e n t s and pur-
poses i t was.
Riess: Acceptable t o the Non-signers?
Pepper: l o , n o t . too acceptable.
I t was a l i t t l e stronger than what the Comaittee of
Pepper: 	 Seven wanted, but the alumni had come i n by t h a t time, and
t h i s was t h e i r suggestion. That was accepted by the
regents and by u s at a meeting about, well somewhere i n
l a t e April, I guess.
Riess: 	 P a r t of the avowed s t r a t e g y of the Committee of Seven w a s
t o influence the regents. 393 Did t h i s mean seeing
them personally?
Pepper: No. W
e were i n communication with some of them i n one way
o r another a l l the time.
A p r i l 22nd w a s the Senate meeting a t which the Committee
of Seven stopped and the a u t h o r i t y went back t o the regular
Senate p l u s a s p e c i a l committee,*
I t was known that the Committee of Seven would be
going out as soon as the regents had m e t on what was
supposed t o be t h e i r f i n a l decision regarding t h e Non-
signers. And i f the committee i n power went out, there
would be no a u t h o r i t a t i v e or responsible committee t o look
a f t e r these things. None of t h e f a c u l t y who w a s i n t e r e s t e d
i n the l o y a l t y s i t u a t i o n , p a r t i c u l a r l y the Non-signers, had
any g r e a t f a i t h t h a t there would n o t be trouble ahead. A s
a matter of f a c t , t h e r e turned out t o be trouble. So the
Non-signers p a r t i c u l a r l y were headed t o make any kind of
trouble i f no provision was made by the Committee of Seven
o r by someone f o r an i n t e r i m or overlapping committee. So
t h a t ' s why t h a t Public Bislations Comrnit t e e was ,organized.
Strong and Wellman were t h e two chief men on it. Its
function was tocarry on the main p o l i c i e s of the f a c u l t y
and a l s o i n the end t o see t h a t there was b e t t e r p u b l i c i t y
of the f a c u l t y t o the public. That committ e e w a s a very
important element i n s a t i s f y i n g the #on-signers. And t h e
*
This s p e c i a l committee i s here r e f e r r e d t o as the Public
Relations Committee. I n the appended calendar of events
i t is c a l l e d the Committee of Five. [ed.]
Pepper: 	 handling of t h a t f e l l almost completely on my shoulders,
g e t t i n g i t going.
Riess: 	 How did i t s a t i s f y t h e Non-signers?
Pepper: 	 Because i t was a committee t h a t would keep up i n an o f f i c i a l
s o r t of way the s t a t u s of the f a c u l t y f e e l i n g regarding the
l o y a l t y oath. That is, i f there hadn't been some committee
t h a t t h e Non-signers had confidence i n they would have made
a l l the trouble they could i n the Senate from then on;
u n l e s s t h i s committee were appointed the f a c u l t y unanimity
would have completely broken down.
And the most d i f f i c u l t thing at the end was t o g e t t h e
Committee of Seven t o endorse t h i s new committee so t h a t
they would, s o t o speak, be passing on t h e i r morale and
a u t h o r i t y t o t h i s Public Relations Committee headed by
Strong. An ad hoc group gathered by Srong and Wellman made
out a document including the naming of the members of a
Committee of Public Relations which had t o be approved by
the Committee of' Seven i n order that t h i s t r a n s f e r could
occur smoothly.
t
Riess: 	 Why not ~ u s t
rename the Committee of Seven and have them
c a r r y on?
Pepper: 	 Because the Committee of Seven w a s not appointed by the
Senate. It was a strange kind of committee. Furthermore,
Hicks and other members of the committee didn't want t o
serve any more. And furthermore still -- and t h i s i s
probably still more important -- the Hon-signers had
r e a l l y no f a i t h i n t h a t committee as a committee. They
were well j u s t i f i e d , when you f i n d out t h e d i f f i c u l t y i n
g e t t i n g the Committee of Seven t o accept the statement,
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
which w a s a not very r a d i c a l statement, of the policy t h a t
the Public Relations Committee was standing behind. It
w a s too strong p a r t i c u l a r l y f o r Sontag. OIBrien d i d n ' t
l i k e it. Hicks w a s somewhat dubious. The only people
t h a t were r e a l l y behind i t were Simpson and me. That was
it. But we knew the a t t i t u d e of the Non-signers, which
s p i l l e d over i n t o the f a c u l t y beyond the Non-signers. We
knew t h a t i f t h i s thing were not accepted there would be
a breakup of the f a c u l t y , and the Senate would go t o
pieces. I n other words, we had t o guarantee t h a t t h i s
thing would go khrough.
Had Wellman and Strong been i n the Non-signer Group?
Strong was a Non-signer, more o r l e s s , a t t h a t time. He
was p r e t t y young. Wellman? I don't think so. But he was
a man, then a l s o p r e t t y young, i n whom the Won-signers had
considerable f a i t h . But t h i s w a s a new group, and the
g i s t of i t was they were willing t o take the statement of
these people, as the continuance of t h e i r a t t i t u d e , and
t h a t w a s the l e a s t the Non-signers would take. That f a c t
we knew, Simpson and I, and i n f a c t I knew more than that.
It was up t o me t o g e t t h i s committee going, and t h i s was
r e a l l y on the suggestion of the Non-signers, and the
people l i k e Kidner and G r i f f i n and Newman and those men,
you see, who were i n t h a t non-cfficial r e l a t i o n t o the
cornittee. They knew i t was important. But i t f e l l t o
m
e t o g e t t h i s committee going. And first I asked Gordon
t o be chairman of it, and he wanted t o know what kind of
a u t h o r i t y he had, was the Committee of Seven behind it?
I had t o t e l l him, "No, we don't know what's behind it."
He wouldnl t accept it.
Pepper: And then I went t o Strong and Strong s a i d , "Why, yes,
I think 1'11 take it." Strong talked with Gordon then,
and Cordon g o t him t o thinking t h i s was l i k e l y t o be
double-crossed by the Committee of Seven. But I g o t Strong
persuaded, and he took i t over and g o t Wellman, and they
made up a document and were running i t o f f themselves,
mimeographing i t f o r presentation at t h e Senate meeting
which was going t o be the next day, I believe. The n i g h t
before would be the decisive time and we then knew t h a t i f
the Committee o f Seven d i d n ' t accept t h i s the Strong-
Wellman committee would s e t themselves up as an a d hoc
committee and present i t t o the Senate on t n e i r own.
That would e n t i r e l y d i s c r e d i t the Committee of Seven,
and t h a t would have been a s e r i o u s break i n the faculty.
So t h a t at t h a t p a r t i c u l a r juncture the u n i t y of the
f a c u l t y w a s on a very, very slender thread.
Sontag met me on t h e campus i n the afternoon, t e l l i n g
me he'd j u s t been t a l k i n g t o Wellman, and Sontag s a i d ,
"That is r a d i c a l s t u f f ; t h a t sounds awful t o m e what they
a r e g e t t i n g out there. What i s t h a t committee up to?"
-	 And the set-up was such that there w a s a move t h a t I
could have made then which would have warned people of
what was up -- t h i s w a s the one occasion when I had the
sense of what a high p o l i t i c a l o f f i c e r must be up a g a i n s t
sometimes -- and I decided t o take a chance t h a t t h e t h i n g
would work out. So I did nothing, l e t the thing ride.
J u s t l e t ' s see,
Later t h a t afternoon I was up a t my house and Barbara
Armstrong from the School of Law -- she hhd been p r e t t y
285. 

Pepper: well informed of a l l t h i s and she was much i n t e r e s t e d ,
though she hadn't been much of a speaker about i t i n f r o n t
of the public -- she came i n and she said, "I beg of you
t o have a young man named Kerr plead f o r t h i s thing i f
tfierels any question about it," which I s a i d there was,
"with the Committee of Seven. I went t o Strong and
Wel1ma.n and persuaded them, a l i t t l e r e l u c t a n t l y , since
I t was t h e i r thing, t o l e t Herr do i t , t h a t he had much
experience with labor a r b i t r a t i o n , and t h a t t h i s w a s s o
precarious t h a t we mustn't take any chances. So Kerr
brought t h i s up. And t h a t was one of the most extraordinary
evenings t h a t I have ever spent.
W
e passed out the s h e e t s t o the Committee of Seven and
Sontag took one look a t i t and put i t a s i d e . O'Brien
wasn't much b e t t e r . And then Kerr began t o t a l k , I k e p t
absolutely quiet, because I knew t h a t anything I s a i d , a t
t h a t juncture anyway, would g o against the Strong committee's
work, Kerr talked very q u i e t l y , explained what the s i t u a t i o n
, 	 was, how i f t h i s were refused i t would mean a break with a
large proportion of the f a c u l t y , how dangerous t h i s would
.. be, and he kept q u i e t l y at t h i s and q u i e t l y at it. He
knew, as I knew, t h a t he could say at any time, nGentlemen,
i f you won't accept t h i s we'll go before the Senate as an
ad hoc committee and you w i l l be disgraced." Never did any
inkling of a big s t i c k come i n . And f i n a l l y I began t o
f e e l t h a t t h e g l a c i e r s were breaking up and beginning t o
move. Then I thought a t last the time had come when maybe
sometning I could say would not be too wrong. To make a
long s t o r y s h o r t , even Sontag agreed, and the whole Comi t-
t e e of Seven agreed on t h i s thing. The t r a n s i t i o n was made.
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
Riess:
Pepper:
That w a s a beautiful piece of reconciliation t h a t Kerr
performed there.
The Public' Relations Committee was definitely an on-campus
committee.
Yes. And personally m
y particular good scout job i n there
was i n getting t h i s oommittee recommended by the Committee
of Seven s o that there was a continuity, not a fight.
The members of t h a t committee were Gordon, Gotaas, Clark
Kerr, Wellman, and Strong.
Yes, and they were appointed by Strong as chairman, I'm
q u i t e sure. What i t meant i n getting that through the
Committee of Seven is hard to explain. [Itaughing] That
was a queer comuittee, but i t d i d do an important function
then, and idkshould have cleared the matter up and finished
the whole thing, except that Neylan found a way of counter-
manding the decision of the regents a t a previous meeting.
I found a note that I wrote t o Ed Strong, when he was
f i n a l l y assigned that job, as t o what they were .specifically
anxious that he and t h a t committee should guard against.
Here is the l e t t e r . I'll read it:
"April 19, 1950. Dear Professor Strong: The committee
of which you a r e chairman was i n s t i t u t e d by the following
resolution of the Committee of Seven: 'Hove that Professor
' a (blank, because they didn't know who i t would
be) "' and such persons as he chooses t o associate with
him, be requested by the Committee of Seven to explore
possible action which may be taken by the faculty as a
r e s u l t of various possible actions of the regents on April
2
1
.
' From discussions i n which I have participated, the
types of possible actions of t h e regents appear t o be
broadly these: 1 ) A f a i l u r e to rescind the s e c i a l oathn
(which shows how l i t t l e f a i t h we had i n themP. #2) Some
form of sheep and goats arrangement by which the oath would
be voluntary but not rescinded. The Cormnittee of Seven has
pepper: consistently opposed t h i s solution, p a r t l y for reasons of
discrimination within the faculty, partly f o r its admini-
s t r a t i v e diffiuulty. 3) The oath rescinded, but some form
of contract required, not within the bounds of Senate
Resolution No. 1
. The contract might contain the exact
words of the original regentst oath, or a l l degrees of
shading therefrom. Sincerely, Stephen C. Pepper.
SO that's what the committee was supposed to do. And
the first man t h a t was suggested as chairman f o r i t (and
I had forgotten t h i s u n t i l I checked my notes) was Clark
Rerr. There was a period of a couple of days then when we
were waiting f o r things t o happen, but they hadn' t happened,
So we j u s t took a Sunday O f f , the only day in that whole
month when things vere r e a l l y brewing that the Committee
of Seven took a vacation. And even t h a t day I went over
to t a l k to Evans, who lived out i n t h e country then, a
very pleasant, relaxing time even though we were talking
about oath matters. Then, when 1 was authorized, I thought,
t o g e t t h i s committee going, I called up Kerr. Mrs. Kerr
came t o the phone, said he was very busy, t h a t he vas fed
'up with the i n e r t i a of the Committee of Seven, they didn't
seem t o be doing anything when they should be very active.
Her husband understood t h a t they took a whole day off on
Sunday, and he was going t o have nothing whatever t o do
with it. So t h a t vas the end of Kerr f o r t h a t aommittee.
And it was then t h a t I t r i e d to g e t Gordon, and he
declined, a l s o being i n an i r a s c i b l e mood. Then Ed
accepted.
Another curious thing was t h a t Hicks, as chairman of
the Coxunittee of Seven, thought t h a t he should properly and
naturally m k e the report t o the Senate. But from a number
of things t h a t he had s a i d and done the Non-signers had
pepper: l o s t confidence i n Hicks. And t h i s meant many more than
the Non-signers, t h a t is, he wouldn't carry much
authority with the Senate. So, even Jenkins -- l e t m
e
see how t h i s would go -- Jenkins and Simpson and Evans
a l l knew t h i s wouldn't go. OtBrien, I think, had a kind
of sense of it. Sontag, however, you would know would
stand behind Hicks. So we had another quite considerable
discussion as t o who should present the f i n a l statement
of the committee and recommendation of the Committee of
Seven to the Senate. And the Committee of Seven s a i d
t h a t I should do i t , and t h i s was because of my r e l a t i o n
with the Non-signers, you see. They had more confidence
i n m
e than i n anybody else, and our recommendation t o
accept the alumni compromise voted by the regents w a s
r e a l l y not e n t i r e l y palatable. But the nearest thing t o
p a l a t a b i l i t y t h a t the Conmittee of Seven could do would
be to put up the man most trusted, most nearly trusted.
[Laughter] He should be the one to give the f i n a l report
of the committee and turn the funds over t o the proper
men, because t h i s vas going t o be a very delicate a f f a i r .
--	 W
e still didnt t know but what (even though we had the Won-
signers now behind us -- t h i s got announced very quickly
--) some wild Indians might start a rumpus i n the Senate
neeting.
Riess: 	 Among the Non-signers?
Pepper: 	 O r even more r a d i c a l bunches. That is, there vere i n the
faculty some s t i l l more r a d i c a l than the Non-signers.
[ ~ a u g h t e r ] Rather temperamental. You j u s t don't know,
when tension is s o high. A s a matter of f a c t , there
a disturbance at t h a t meeting.
Pepper: So, they decided t o have me give the f i n a l thing, which
I did. I made out a very c a r e f u l speeoh f o r them and i t
went over very well.
Another thing was who w a s t o chairman t h a t meeting.
They decided t h a t Davis was t h e b e s t man t o chairman it.
This was still, s o t o speak, an executive session meeting,
s o t h a t the president was t o sit down with the audience.
W
e g o t Deutsch t o be there. There were more than 800
present. Sproul and Deutsch were s i t t i n g together on the
l e f t i n the f r o n t s e a t s , the Committee of Seven were
gathered i n the neighborhood, and OIBrien and I sat
together. W
e even had t o drive away newspaper photographers.
Davis c a l l e d the meeting t o order. -And then he c a l l e d on
O'Brien who reviewed t h e f a c t s of our r e l a t i o n with t h e
Alumni Association -- ( t h a t ' s uhere we needed him, you see,
because he'd been i n contact with them) -- and cleared us
of any negotiations -- ( t h e Non-signers p a r t i c u l a r l y sus-
pected us of negotiating with the Alumni Committee) -- and
read the Cornittee of Seven declaration upholding Senate
Resolution : No. 1, and warning of t h e consequences i f
-	 compromises f o r the contract were taken. This w a s the
resolution t h a t the alumni had recommended.
Then Davis c a l l e d on me and I began by saying, "This
is the last appearance of the Committee of Seven, but we
w i l l not dissolve u n t i l we have our affairs wound up and
money returned pro rata t o the donor^,^ I read the f i v e
p e r t i n e n t a r t i c l e s i n the alumni report, which the regents
had, i n substance, voted t o accept a t the meeting of t h e
day before [ ~ ~ r i l And these included the form of
211. 

the contract and the suspension of the oath. See, nov
1
i 290. 

f

I
1 pepper:
/
1
t h a t was supposed t o be a l l done.
Then, extempore, I expressed m
y g r e a t personal disap-
pointment at the r e s u l t . It didn't conform t o the faculty's
March 7 Resolution No. 1 from which the Committee of Seven
had never f o r a moment wavered, taking i t as a aandate t o
the faculty. But I s a i d t h a t there were some gains: 1)
the oath was gone, 2) tenure had been w r i t t e n i n t o the
regents records f o r the first time i n the h i s t o r y of the
University i n accepting the alumni method of clearing Won-
signers through hearings before the Committee on Privilege
and Tenure on the d i r e c t advice of t h a t committee, 3) ve
had a f r i e n d l y core of regents whose number had increased
t o a s u b s t a n t i a l majority, on whom the president could
place reliance, and 4) we had acquired an understanding
group of the alumni, whose understanding of the f a c u l t y
position was s t e a d i l y increasing. W
e had acquired money
from firm alumni friends, and I s a i d I hoped they would
n o t mind if I named two who had given days of t h e i r time
t o the faculty, namely James K. Moffi t t and Monroe
'Deutsch. Moffitt had done -- nobody knows how much he
had t r i e d t o help i n t h i s thing. And f o r these reasons
I - - s a i d I personally thought t h a t a l l who could do s o
conscientiously would do w e l l t o s i g n the new contract.
"And, [reading from h i s notes] "we should have confidence
i n our f r i e n d l y regents and support them by cooperating
with the b e s t they could get f o r us towards rebuilding
our new u n i ~ e r s i t y . ~
Then I c a l l e d a t t e n t i o n t o the legal problem, which
I thought fev had e n t i r e l y grasped, and which had proved
a n insurmountable obstacle t o achieving a contract con-
formable t o the f a c u l t y mandate. I r e f e r r e d t o Surrey,
pepper: and Davis c a l l e d o n s u r r e y , who explained the legal situa-
tion, which had t o do very largely with the s t a t u s of
tenure.
"As Surrey sat down, a young man with glasses stepped
swiftly up to the microphone, waving a piece of paper,
and began shouting, '
W
e do not approve of the manner i n
which t h i s meeting is being conducted.' And Steel, the
r e g i s t r a r , grabbed the microphone and shut i t off, and
Davis reached down t o r e s t r a i n the young man. S t e e l
grabbed h i s paper, and Polsom, near the f r o n t seat, s t a r t e d
over the s e a t to reach him, but with h i s papers rumpled he
subsided and went back t o h i s s e a t among a group of young
mathematicians. He kept looking over the audience there-
a f t e r f o r support, a nice-looking boy, blond, tall, high
forehead, and quite berserk t h a t morningem
Then Strong and Wellman gave t h e i r report -- nobody
knew how much s t r a i n of heart and nerves l a y behind that.
N
o objections; they were passed.
And then Sproul stepped out on the platform, saying he
w a s more comfortable up there i n h i s accustomed place.
After a very b r i e f statement he c a l l e d f o r questions, and
the most d i f f i c u l t ones f o r him bore on tenure. There
followed some discussion. Then the president sat down and
some questions a t large were asked.
Tolman gave a prepared speech appealing t o the Non-
signers not to s i g n and c a l l i n g f o r more #on-signers.
Loevenberg e a r l i e r had asked the president what crime he
would be accused of f o r not signing the contract, and the
president smiled wanly and j u s t guaranteed a fair treat-
ment with assumption of innocence;
Pepper: George Stewart asked i f the money i n the possession o f
the Committee of Seven could be handed over to the Public
Relations Co~mittee,as recornended by Wellman. Davis, as
chairman, amplified the d i f f i c u l t i e s of such a proposal.
Me thought we had t o return i t , which ve did, t o a l l the
people we knew who had given it.
"And thenw [reading directly from notes] "Brodeur made
a graceful motion of confidence i n the president -- hearty
clapping. And Barbara Armstrong made her motion f o r the
'friendly regents1 -- laud ayes, but a fev noes. Davis
called on Deutsch, f o r whom the whole faculty arose and
remained stunding vhile he ascended the platform with h i s
cane, and he gave a splendid and somewhat rousing speech
looking forward to the future greatness of the University
based on the patience and understanding of the faculty i n
cooperation with the regents and t h e president. The faculty
stood again as Deutsch came off, and there the aeeting
adjournedmw
, But that was not t h e end. That was supposed t o be the
end, but then the regents ( r e a l l y Weylan) double-crossed
--us again.
Riess: According t o the Stewart book, on May 26 bleylan attacked
the lon-signers of the contract, i n what "was widely
interpreted as indicating his repudiation of the
compromise. A t t h i s meeting the number of non-
signers was announced as 412, of whom 94 were
Senate members.
nIn s ? i t e of t h i s speech the Committees of Seven,
v i t h what many considered t o be unseemly haste
curd undue optimism, disbanded and returned
$11,684.35, representing the balance of the
faculty fund that had been s u b ~ c r i b e d . - ~ 1381
Lp.
Would you comment on this?
Pepper: The above should relevantly be included.* But my account
is c o r r e c t as I saw t h e . t o t a l a c t i o n from the inside, and
Stewart's statement c l e a r l y misrepresents the s i t u a t i o n ,
The money l e g a l l y had t o be returned t o the donors. It
was given f o r a s p e c i f i c purpose i n t o the custody of t h e
Committee of Seven. The Committee of Seven had no reason
t o question the good f a i t h of the regents (unless they had
interpreted Neylan's switch of h i s vote a g a i n s t the Alumni
Compromise as signifying bad f a i t h on the p a r t of the
regents) -- and J u s t imagine the chaos If the Cornittee of
Seven had repudiated the regent's acceptance of the Alumni
Compromise on the above grounds! Consider, too, t h a t the
Committee of Seven had f a i l e d t o gain the confidence of
the Non-signers- There was no f e a s i b l e a l t e r n a t i v e but
t o dissolve the Committee of Seven j u s t a t t h a t apparently
favorable juncture. Stewart and Hwhat the many consideredn
j u s t did n o t adequately consider what the precise s i t u a t i o n
was at t h a t moment. They did n o t know a l l the facts which
I have been d e t a i l i n g -- y e t Stewart, at l e a s t , had access
t o enough of the f a c t s not t o have aade the above misrepre-
sentation, Notice a l s o t h a t Neylan's a t t a c k r e f e r r e d t o by
Stewart was on May 26, the meeting a f t e r the regents had
voted t o accept the Alumni Compromise which meeting was on
April 21. Stewart gives the impression t h a t t h a t a t t a c k
and Weylanls a c t i o n could have been evidence i n the pos-
session of the Committee of Seven (and l e t us add a l l
those present a t the Senate meeting) on A p r i l 22,
*M
r
. Pepper added the above statement a t the time of
e d i t i n g of the interviews and a f t e r f u r t h e r consideration
of the f a c t s -- given i n g r e a t e r d e t a i l i n the appended
calendar of events, Below is h i s reply t o the question
recorded a t the time of the interview, [ed.]
Yes, at t h i s time some people asked if the money t h a t
we had gathered, which was some thousands of d o l l a r s ,
could not be passed over t o the Strong committee, o r a t
l e a s t held- W
e were a l l prepared f o r t h a t and f e l t t h a t
that^ was impossible, because the aoney had been given to
the Committee of Seven t o perform the s p e c i f i c purpose
Pepper: t h a t we had carried through. W
e didn't f e e l t h a t we had
any authority t o use t h a t money f o r any other purpose, and
we discussed t h i s among ourselves q u i t e a b i t , with the
b e s t l e g a l advice through Jennings and Surrey, because we
knew t h a t t h i s was a n a t u r a l thing t o do, other things not
considered. So we t o l d the people who suggested t h a t w
e
should hand the money over o r a t least keep i t t h a t we
couldn't do it, but t h a t we would suggest, when we
returned the money t o the people whom we knew i t came
from i n the proportion t h a t i t had not been spent, t h a t
they should l e t the University o r l e t some committee keep
it.
Well, t h i s fund was returned, and a c e r t a i n proportion
of i t -- t h i s went over some months, the process of
returning i t -- not too large a proportion, w a s returned,
and other amounts added and donated s p e o i f i c a l l y t o a
committee with a s p e c i a l name, which w a s made the custo-
dian of this fund. I was and s t i l l am one of the custo-
ldians of t h a t fund, and the fund and the custodians a r e
still i n action. J t ' s being saved i n case other univer-
s i t i e s g e t i n t o trouble, o r ourselves.
I n f a c t , j u s t a year ago there was a case of academic
freedom being threatened, a B r i t i s h boy on t h i s campus
who had been among the crowd t h a t was protesting the House
Committee on Un-American A c t i v i t i e s appearance i n San
Francisco [Bfay 1960]. He was threatened with expulsion
by the immigration people. There w a s some pressure f o r
the University t o do something about i t , but the admini-
s t r a t i o n ' s a t t i t u d e w a s t h a t they could do nothing unless
the student appealed f o r action. And he hesitated t o
1 Pepper:
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Pepper: 

appeal f o r action because h i s wife was having a child; i f
he did i t , i t would not be t o h i s personal advantage as
near as he could see. The chairman of h i s department said,
*Now, we're putting no pressure on you a t all. W
e think
t h i s is awful. You do just what you want to doon Then
our committee w a s called together and we l e t him know
t h a t i f he did care t o protest -- w
e weren't urging him
-- we would provide the funds, up to a c e r t a i n point, which
would be enough t o begin a s u i t , and t h a t w
e would undertake
t o g e t other funds insofar as possible. Well, i t was
f i n a l l y s e t t l e d by -- the following is the rumor: t h a t one
of our administrative' o f f i c e r s brought strong pressure i n
the r i g h t place ( i t w a s probably Kerr), and the fellowwas
able t o stay. But t h i s fund is there, and the committee
i s the watchdog. There a r e several thousand d o l l a r s
available.
Now, t h i s noverly hasty" business -- there were people
t h a t f e l t t h a t we should have distributed i t , but we f e l t
a responsibility regarding the way i n which these funds
were given that our turning the funds over to others j u s t
simply could not i n good conscience be done, nor legally,
either. I'm a l i t t l e surprised t h a t Stewart wouldn't
have realized t h a t .
W
a
s any of t h a t money t h a t was re-returned used f o r cases
t h a t came before the California Supreme Court i n 1952?
Let me see -- one of the troubles is t h a t I was on sabba-
t i c a l leave immediately a f t e r that. That woulC be the
f a l l of 1950. I w a s away, i n Europe. It must have been
then when I heard that once more Neylan had short-changed
the faculty. That is, he changed h i s vote from the
Pepper: 	 minority to the majority at the time of the May 21st [ s i c ]
aeeting, s o t h a t he could demand a reconsideration of the
regent's previous action, and then when the next meeting
came he w a s successful i n s h i f t i n g the majority, and i n
having the agreement with the alumni rescinded.
There we were, back i n the old set-up, and that is when
the dismissal of the #on-signers took place. O
n our
scheme, t h a t is on the alumni scheme, they would not have
been dismissed. This book here, "We Bring you the Facts,"
w a s a kind of a white paper. This is dated August 17, 1950,
and it's a Umessage f o r a l l o f f i c e r s and council members
of the Alumni Association of the University of Californiaw
protesting the regentstaction. It contains a l e t t e r t o
Governor Warren from Moffitt, Deutsch, and Stevens; a
awe11 letter from Hicks -- that's the l e t t e r t h a t lays the
vhole thing out -- [ t o Stephen C. Bechtel, Milton H. Esberg,
Jr., Kathryn K. Fletcher, Don H. McLaughlin, Governor
Warren, and sproul]; a l e t t e r from Deutsch t o each of the
regents; a l e t t e r to Sproul from Edward Tolman; and a copy
of the regents' resolution of April 21, 1950, which is the
- one t h a t they agreed t o , you see, and which was rescinded
l a t e r .
Riess: Does i t include the alumni position?
Pepper: No, but the alumni were decent enough t o p r i n t these
l e t t e r s which were complaining to the alumni about t h e i r
not takins action against the regents a f t e r they had per-
suaded the Committee of Seven and the faculty t o accept
t h e i r compromise.
Riess: 	 I t w a s on J u l y 22 t h a t s i x Senate members were dismissed
f o r not completely testifying before the Committee on
Riess: P r i v i l e g e and Tenure, 1401 Perhaps you had l e f t for
Europe by then,
Pepper : Yes, a l l that happened j u s t a f t e r I l e f t .
Now, I never signed up with the Bon-signers. I didn't
think t h a t was the thing to do. That made q u i t e a decision
f o r a lot of men, though personally I d i d n ' t f i n d i t too
d i f f i c u l t a decision. However, I d i d have an o f f e r t o go
t o Princeton t h a t I held i n abeyance through a l l t h i s ,
Princeton thought i t was a f i n e time t o gather up men from
California. So I had a very respectable way out. Finan-
c i a l l y i t would have been t o m
y advantage.
Riess: You mean f o r you there was a question about signing?
Pepper: Well, i t j u s t would have been s i l l y t o have l e t an o f f e r
of t h i s excellent kind drop completely, t h a t is, t o turn
i t down, when there w a s uncertainty as t o whether the
University might not collapse. Personally I did believe
t h a t i f a very l a r g e number of the f a c u l t y had l e f t t h e
University v i r t u a l l y ( i - e . , as the g r e a t and respected
i n s t i t u t i o n i t was) would have collapsed. I mean, suppose
a t h i r d of the f a c u l t y had l e f t , I think Beylan would have
been t i c k l e d t o death and t h a t would have r e a l l y knocked
the University of California out. I f e l t t h i s i s too im-
portant a University t o l e t drop l i k e t h a t and I f e l t dif-
f e r e n t l y from, say, Loewenberg. You see, Loewenberg and I
were i n the same general position. Tolrnan had t o go. H
e
had s a i d t h a t he vould never sign any oath and s o he had
t o go. I think just aboutthe number t h a t did go was proper.
Come t o think of i t , i t was the remainder of our fund,
the one which was returned, plus additions, that was f i r s t
I Pepper:
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Pepper: 

used i n the nature of a loan t o the Won-signers. The i d e a
was t h a t if they were returned t o the University i t would
be refunded. A s a matter of f a c t , they were rein-
s t a t e d , and s o i t w a s refunded. It vas a t t h a t time t h a t
we did the b i g refunding. So the fund I was t e l l i n g you
about e a r l i e r is the t h i r d one, s o to spedc. I think I'm
s t r a i g h t on t h i s . But i t i s c o r r e c t t h a t i t w a s the off-
spring of t h a t o r i g i n a l fund t h a t first supported the Won-
signers. Furthermore, i t was more than that: during the
period the University faculty, a very l a r g e proportion of
i t , gave a c e r t a i n percentage ( a s I r e c a l l 5 per c e n t ) of
t h e i r s a l a r y f o r the fund.
And so the major support of these men -- and t h i s i s
not r e a l i z e d a c r o s s the country i n s p i t e of fair funds
and s p o t t y enthusiasm a t d i f f e r e n t places, l i k e Wisconsin
and Michigan -- the major fund f o r the support of these
dismissed men when they did n o t have positions of t h e i r
own came from t h e i r colleagues here i n the University.
Wow, i f t h e r e had been a g r e a t number of men t o support
they couldn't have been supported i n t h i s way.
How many men were dismissed, o r r a t h e r supported?
This c e r t a i n l y must be on the records somewhere.
You see, i n good f a i t h the f a c u l t y passed the Non-
signers through the Tenure Co~imittzeand received from
them s a t i s f a c t i o n i n terms of the Tenure Committee
judgment t h a t these people were good American c i t i z e n s
with no i n t e n t i o n t o be Comrninists o r overthrow the
government. Now, not a l l of those l e f t the University
when the regents f i n a l l y s a i d they were going t o dismiss
pepper: these men, For instance, j u s t f i n a n c i a l l y they f e l t they
couldn't. Walter Horn is a good example. I have Horn's
l e t t e r t o Sproul here, among others, explaining j u s t what
a h e l l of a p o s i t i o n t h i s had placed him i n , but t h a t he
j u s t couldn't a f f o r d t o follow h i s conscience i n t h i s , he
j u s t had t o break it.
I should say t h a t about h a l f of t h a t number [ s e e pps.
138-141 i n Stewart f o r breakdown of numbers i n dismissals]
were dismissed. A c e r t a i n number of those immediately
stepped i n t o e x c e l l e n t positions, l i k e my own Princeton
o f f e r , you see, Kantorowicz i n h i s t o r y , one of t h e i r
best men, f o r example, went t o the advanced study center
a t Princeton. Also Rabinowich, who w a s one of our very
b e s t men i n Greek, and he never came hack. Kantorowicz
never did e i t h e r , b u t he dropped i n t o a b e t t e r position
than we were offering, Any maybe t h a t ' s what you'd say
about Rabinowich too, t h a t he g o t i n t o a p e r f e c t l y i d e a l
research s i t u . i t i o n and was n o t p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t e d i n
teaching. So t h a t a c e r t a i n number of these men never
came back, but q u i t e a number of them did.
Actually I guess those trials, s o t o speak, were going
on while I was here. I think they s t a r t e d them very soon
a f t e r the April 22 meeting, because t h a t was t h e agreement.
W
e had a l s o agreed tha-t they would n o t be dismissed i f they
were found n o t g u i l t y . That was the compromise t h a t we
made.
Going back t o the a t t i t u d e s , . . I f e l t no conscience on
t h i s thing. The required taking of oaths I j u s t
thought t h a t t h i s was an outrageous thing t o do, and was
v e r y ~ b a df o r the government and the University, but as
pepper:
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far as taking an oath was concerned, that r e a l l y did not
concern me too much. It seemed t o m
e much more important
t o save the University by staying here and fighting the
rekxents out on t h e i r own ground, as i t a l s o seemed t o a
g r e a t many others of us. You see, I wasn't i n Horn's
position, where i t went against the conscience t o take
t h i s semiLoath thing; i t would have gone against my con-
science t o have l e t a great miversi:y down.
Now, t h i s a t t i t u d e was absolutely not appreciated i n
the East and other places. And those of us who stayed
here were swept together under the same brush as those
t h a t didn't think there was any r e a l i s s u e here a t all,
you see. The thing t h a t we resented very much, w
e who
were fighting t h i s thing here, was th2.t the AAOP took no
action whatever when i t would hzve been effective. About
a year l a t e r , when the thing w a s v i r t u a l l y a l l s e t t l e d
and a l l t h a t remained was the trial against the regents
f o r reinstatement -- and I understand t h a t t h e regents
, had to go through with the trial because otherwise there
would unquestionably have been a taxpayers s u i t f o r which
-the regents would be individually responsible; the proper
thing t o do w z s t o have t h i s l e g a l l y s e t t l e d -- i t was
while t h i s was pending t h a t the AAUP came i n and black-
l i s t e d t h e University, which seemed t o na and a good many
of the r e s t of us here, and particularly George Stewart,
who was a t that meeting of the AAUP and walked out of i t ,
a good deal l i k e a fellow afraid t3 h i t the bully when
he was knocking a fellow around, but when the bully has
been p r e t t y well disposed of, then he comes up and
smashes him. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] However, t h a t w a s the s i d e of
i pepper: 	 things t h a t p a r t i c u l a r l y i r r i t a t e d those of us t h a t remained
i
i here and fought i t out. 

Riess: Did you l o s e any members of the art department because of 

! the oath? O r d i d i t c r e a t e a s p l i t ? 

Pepper: Well, you heard about Horn. Margaret Peterson OIHagan w a s
i among the Non-signers, and she never came back; she was
I
i	 absolutely l o s t . That was the amount of loss. The r e s t
f
i	 of the men in the art department went along with the 

majority of the faculty, f o r the most part. Some of them 

were p r e t t y excited. 

I
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Riess: But i t d i d n ' t produce any d i f f i c u l t i e s among the department
members? It didn' t divide the department?
Pepper: No. I n f a c t , I think I ' d say about t h e University as a
whole t h a t though things were awfully tense during t h a t
period subsequent t o Heylan's rescinding, t h a t is, h i s
f o r c i n g the regents t o take back what they had promised,
t h e University suffered on the whole, I should say, very
l i t t l e . The judgments on t h a t score would be d i f f e r e n t f o r
d i f f e r e n t people,
i Riess: ' 	 According t o Stewart, nobody won, everybody l ~ s t ,
and the
i
/ University was "a less well-functioning i n s t i t u t i o n , a l e s s
-'happy and c r e a t i v e place, than i t was a year ago.A [P, 1331
Pepper: Well, during that a u t u a l period t h a t was a year out, Abso-
l u t e l y nobody did anything but f i g h t t h i s darned thing.
That was the big loss. The a c t u a l loss of f a c u l t y was
negligible. I mean, we l o s t a few very good men -- who
might have gone somewhere e l s e anyway.
The damage t h a t should be reckoned up is i n terms of
men t h a t might have come but didn't. Those were a fair
number\ for a few years. I'm a f r a i d the b l a c k l i s t i n g of
pepper:
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Riess: 

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Pepper:
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i Riess:
i Pepper:
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the University by the AAUP had an effect. I know of a few
cases where we got r e f u s a l s on t h a t score.
Blacklisting meant the AAUP did not recommend t h i s as a
place t o teach?
Well, t o be blacklisted by the AAUP is not a nice thing.
What the AAUP i s saying is t h a t these people a r e not l i v i n g
up to the standards of f a c u l t y freedom and a l l t h a t goes
with i t , tenure and conditions, t h a t are the standards o f
the AAUP.
I t certainly sounds l i k e something not done lightly.
What was outrageous about i t was t h a t when they put i t on
t h e i r standards were i n e f f e c t again here. It simply had
t o do with the reinstatement of the men who had been dis-
missed. And anybody who knew the inside set-up there
would know t h a t the faculty was back i n control i n the
good old way.
And t h a t reinstatement would take place?
Well, there was a lft t l e question as t o what- the California
Supreme Court would do about it.
Now, there w
e were a l l very convinced that the chief
justice, Roger Traynor, of the California Supreme Court,
was the one who swung it. And there was an anomaly there,
by the way. And what is very noticeable is t h a t the
regents did not appeal, .you know. That's very significant,
I think, i n terms of our Judgment of the situation. Anyway,
there's a l i t t l e item here t h a t you haven't g o t and which
ought t o go i n our history: Max Radin was nominated t o be
a supreme court judge, but he was known t o be very l i b e r a l ,
and t h a t meant radical, you see, t o a large p a r t of the
communit y.
Riess: When was t n i s ?
Pepper: I should say about 1946, o r so. . ..
Radin w a s coming up f o r confirmation by the l e g i s l a t u r e
I and he knew t h a t there w a s going t o be trouble with regard
t o himself. Now, I've j u s t g o t t o say t h i s , zuld I don1$
q u i t e know how i t would work, but the idea of i t was t h a t
he agreed t o resign provided Roger Traynor would be nomi-
nated i n h i s place, which was done, And t h i s is the man
who we a r e q u i t e sure -- by the grapevine business, you
know -- persuaded the supreme court t o the decision t h a t
1
1 they came t o which vas a moderate one of reinstatement.
1 That is, i t did the ,job but i t did i t v i t h a c e r t a i n amount
i of moderation, s o i t would be a compromise between what the
lawyer would want and a refusal. There was one dissenting
1
vote from the extreme request of Ernest Besig (Besig was
i6 the lawyer f o r the f a c u l t y from the C i v i l L i b e r t i e s Union)
i who wanted something stronger i n favor of the faculty.
This dissenting judge said, "It's ridiculous, i f we're
going t o put them back, not t o put them back c ~ m p l e t e l y . ~
So, t o have Tramor agreeing with the compromise group
judges p r a o t i c a l l y gave the thing away. This vas h i s
d e a l with the majority of the judges, s o t o speak, you
see?
Well, you know, 1'11 be i n t e r e s t e d t o see your record
here on the loyalty oath, because i t w i l l c l a r i f y a good
laany things, And you have Hildebrandls notes too, have
you?* I have way in the back of my head a very weak in-
tention of writing up t h i s s t u f f myself, and I don' t know
Reference t o an interview by the Regional Cultural History
P r o j e c t with J o e l H
. Hildebrand, 1962. Actually i n t h i s
interview there is no reference t o the l o y a l t y oath con-
troversy, [ed.]
whether i t w i l l ever come t o be, but i f i t does I'll be
able t o use this. This is a s t r a i g h t e r account of the
material than I've had before.
i
! Riess: While wefre on loyalty things, I wondered if you had taken
L 

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p a r t in the defense of the Refregier murals.
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Pepper: No, I didn't. That must have happened vhile I was away,
,
because I certainly would have. I knew about it, but I
wasn't involved, I don't think, though I may have signed
some document o r something. I think I would have taken a
more active p a r t than I h o w 1 d i d i f i t w a s active when
I was around.
j Riess: The other scene was the stopping of the s t a t e department
I traveling exhibition, i n 1947.
:
That was the one Truman made his famous statement about?
i Pepper: I wish 1 had t h a t t o quote because it's one of the most --
1
see, Truman is e very typicsl man [laughing], a big man,
but a typical American of the middle-class type. He went
t o town an the absurdity of these things t h a t didn't repre-
s e n t anything i n any way t h a t anyone could e a s i l y recognize
and so on. [Laughter] But i t was r e a l l y a f i n e show,
excellent things gathered together, and he made himself
the laughin&stock of the world, I guess, and c e r t a i n l y
showed American culture up the way he didn't want i t t o be
showed up,
It sounds l i k e a g r e a t mistake, on h i s part.
Oh, yes, and T r w n thought i t would give Europe a bad
impression of American culture, but he did the job him-
self! [~ a u ~ h
ter]
No, 1 wasn't mixed up i n t h a t a t a l l , j u s t as an
audience, laughing, with some embarrassment.
i Riess: Also I wanted t o ask you what t h i s Conmittee on t h e
Reorganization of Academic Government was, That was 1948
t o 1951 t h a t you were on t h a t -
Pepper: Oh, yes, and t h a t was where I w a s t h e one minority speaker.
They were a l l kind of i n t e r e s t e d i n what a lone man would
d o on t h i s issue, and I didn't r e a l l y expect t o win, b u t
[ laughing] I didn 't know but what I might. I remember I
introduced i t by one of the few c l e v e r things t h a t I ' v e
drawn up: "This is a case where most of the people a r e
a g a i n s t me, but where most of t h e reasons a r e with me,
which i s t y p i c a l of the position of philosophers through
history." [ ~ a u g h t e r ] Well, I immediately had the whole
Senate there! They were l i s t e n i n g t o me with i n t e r e s t .
And I g o t a f a i r vote f o r me, a t h i r d o r so.
The reorganization was what created the Representative
Assembly and took the main f a c u l t y administration out of
the hands of the Senate and put i t i n t o the hands of a
representative body. O
n p r i n c i p l e I thought i t was going
t o have very bad e f f e c t s , and those e f f e c t s have shown,
I
incidentally, But I must say, with the University running
up t o the many thousands i t is, with an enormous faculty,
I guess i t was i n e v i t a b l e t h a t i t would come t o t h i s sooner
o r l a t e r anyway. What I pointed out, and I think i t is
t r u e , is t h a t 'the Assembly would never have r i s e n up against
the regents i n the way t h a t the Senate did i n the i n i t i a l
meeting on the oeth issue. It takes the Senate and the
younger men, the whole cross-section, t o do that. Inevi-
tably, I s a i d , and i t turned out t o be true, the Assembly
would be composed of older men, widely known i n the Uni-
v e r s i t y , o r at l e a s t i n t h e i r area, department chairmen,
Pepper: 	 deans and such-like, and the hyperconservative group would
n o t be too s e n s i t i v e t o dangers and would tend t o accept
committee reports without too much question, and s o on.
That leads t o a s o r t of swiftness and efficiency of pro-
cedure, but it's dargerous. And t h a t ' s more o r l e s s what
has happened. More an t h a t could be found i n the Senate
minutes.
OTHER UNIVERSITY INTERESTS
Pepper's Ideas Taken up Elsewhere
Department of Dramatic A r t
Pepper: 	 A couple of years l a t e r , about 1940, when the art department
was obviously going very well, von Neumayer [at t h a t time
professor of dramatic art i n the speech department] was re-
t i r i n g , and they ( t h e administration, probably) resolved t o
s e e if they could do the same thing f o r drama and s e t up a
new department of drama. I think I was made chairman of a
committee, which i n d i c a t e s t h a t I ' d worked out a l l r i g h t ,
o r r a t h e r t h a t the art department had worked out a l l r i g h t .
Von Neumayer w a s on t h a t committee and the other two t h s t
were important -- there were probably a couple of others,
whom I don' t remember -- were Durham and Lehman.
t Ve scoured the country f o r a chairman of a department
of drama without success. but there w a s one man, Paul
--Baker, t h a t we thought would be fine. I ' d forgotten a l l
about i t u n t i l ten days ago when I s a w Baker at Baylor.
It's kind of too bad t h a t didn't work. He r e a l l y would
have done wonders here. But w
e d i d n ' t choose too badly.
W
e came t o the conclusion t h a t on our doorstep we had the
s o l u t i o n and we s e l e c t e d Fred Harris. H
e had been the
coach, as they c a l l e d it, f o r the ASUC dramatics groups,
which were the aftermath of the English Club's dramatic
work.
Riess: T noticed t h a t Lehman was chairman of the department of
dramatic art, from 1941-42 u n t i l the fall of 1944 when
Fred Harris became chairman.
Pepper: What developed w a s t h a t Lehman and Durham and T were a
standby committee f o r t h a t department, forma.11~
f o r a
while, I think, and then informally f o r as long as w
e
were around.
Riess: This was at Harris's request?
Pepper: I think first i t s t a r t e d because we were the people who'd
been most e n e r g e t i c i n g e t t i n g t h e chairman and s o I think
we kind of kept an eye on things. And then I think Harris
wanted us, and then I think i t forma.11~
went out of being.
I don't know q u i t e how. But Harris would c a l l us i n ,
generally once o r twice a year, tomview things.
Riess: You t o l d me, when w
e spoke a yi.ar ago, t h a t Harris did a
constructive job but he couldn't g e t men t o come and s t a y
with the department, and t h a t the drama department r e s t e d
on him, h i s wife, and temporary men. Then you mentioned
a Viennese man.
Pepper: That was an interdepartmental problem and i t w a s a shame
because i f those two had been a b l e t o g e t along together
w
e would have hnd an e x c e l l e n t department. Looking back,
I r e a l l y think the trouble with Harris was t h z t he w a s
thoroughly dosmatic i n h i s mode of teaching and
d i r e c t i n g and j u s t couldn't endure men of other types.
H e happened t o have an exceptionally good type of drama.
What he hated above everything e l s e was the commercial
drama.
This Viennese fellow, Henry Schnitzler, w a s a very
able and successful man i n the commercial theater, a man
I pegper:
Riess: 

Pepper :
Riess: 

Pepper: 

c
of high standards who knew some things t h a t Harris j u s t
didn't know at a l l . When t h e i r plays went on they were
j u s t as d i f f e r e n t as could be; Harris's had a kind of a
f l u i d f l e x i b i l i t y and a personal quality, and t h i s man's
had a z i p and a tautness! Harris would i n s i s t on the
students as f a r as possible working out t h e i r own charac-
t e r i z a t i c n s and then he w ~ u l dmold the whole together, you
see. But Schnitzler r e a l l y directed, told them what t o
do, which t o Harris was anathema. That j u s t should not
be done. That was not creative. But i t w a s effective.
Schnit z l e r then [1948-491 went down t o UCLA.
Schnitzler's work was effective.
Yes. That w a s the usual way of teaching drama. A l l I
mean t o say is that it's another way. It was also, f o r
some people, the only way, and it's probsbly the only vay
t h a t makes th:it taut, c r i s p dramatic performance which you
associate with the f i n e s t professional groups.
Yet the other method has g r e a t appeal.
It has g r e a t appeal, and i t was marvelous. M
y daughter
studied under Marris at the height of the department -- I
think he got t i r e d a f t e r a while. She went from him t o
North Carolina, which was the outstanding department i n
t h i s oountry i n creative drama -- well, Green had l e f t
and i t probably was losing momentum there a l i t t l e b i t
-- and she found i t just no comparison t o the intensive,
you might say inspired, honest kind of teaching t h a t w a s
going on here. So she came back. Then he went up and
g o t her M.A. a t the University of Washington, which had
a curious kind of set-up, semi-commercial. They were
p a r t i c u l a r l y proud i f they could g e t t h e i r students taken
Pepper: t o Hollywood, and many of them were. Harris thought t h a t
was awful, and i t probably vas. [Laughter] The Washington
department w a s an awfully pedestrian way of g e t t i n g an
A She went through with it, however, though she thought
i t was humdrum. So t h i s , i n a way, was a very f i n e depart-
ment under Harris.
Riess: How b i g was it? How could they work the fan-like arrange-
ment of courses?
Pepper: Very small. Oh, they weren't doing that. I wasn't going
t h a t far with reg:~rdt o it. It was simply t h a t they were
adapting t h e art department i d e a s t o drama i n terms of the
kind of s t a f f , f o r instance, not requiring degrees f o r
the men, looking f o r c r e a t i v e men, looking f o r c r e a t i v e
development of the students, an understanding of the arts,
A l l t h a t was passed over from t h e art department. And
music wzs doing the same thing.
Riess: How about the p a r a l l e l s t o t h e h i s t o r y part? History of
drama would appear i n the English department, wouldn't it?
Pepper: How there's another thing t h a t never was -- maybe t h a t was
p a r t l y why there w a s a kind of h i s t o r y of drama taken up
i n the English department, but i t was not h i s t o r y of
t h e a t e r , which is very d i f f e r e n t . And h i s t o r y of theater,
msybe they've g o t somebody i n t h a t now, but Harris wasn't
i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t very m c h . H e was, on :paper, but
Harris j u s t did n o t have the a b i l i t y t o b u i l d up a
depzrtmental s t r u c t u r e t h a t could expand and grow. I t
never did and he began t o g e t a l i t t l e t i r e d l a t e r , and
I don't know as r i g h t now i t is doing the b e s t i t can,
Riess: D r a m a never seems t o have s u f f i c i e n t f a c i l i t i e s here.
Pepper: 	 Well, t h a t was n o t t o the bad. Paul Baker, f o r instance,
was t e l l i n g me and showing me t h a t until t h i s new Frank
Lloyd Wright theater was b u i l t the work w a s r a t h e r
deliberately c a r r i e d on under d i f f i c u l t conditions st
Baylor. So that the performances on the Wheeler H a l l
stag8 here, under the most d i f f i c u l t cor~di
tions which
required a l l s o r t s of invention, was the f i n e s t 2ossible
training f o r directing. The fact of not having grand
theater appointments i n the pilysical sense the way Stanford
does, f o r i n s t a c e -- t h i s is interesting: I r e a l l y think
our department, with a l l these weaknesses I ' m speaking
about, has s t e a d i l y been superior t o Stanford with a l l
its beautiful, great theater. So it's not the building
t h a t makes i t , it's the men.
i 	 College of Environmental Design
t
.
i Riess: University Librarian Donald Coney r e f e r s t o the College
i
i	 of Environmental Design as the R f r u i t i o n of a seed planted
1
1 	 by P e p ~ e r . ~
What about that?
i
1 Pepper: 2hat seed has gone many places. I t has influenced a
Harvard report. I t has brought about the introduction,
even i f it's i n only a shadowy second-class way, of t h e
creative artists even i n b r v a r d and Princeton, s o it's
had plenty of influence.
Riess: The seed t h a t you planted i n the art department.
Pepper: Yes, and I was in very close contact with all those men,
with Wurster and Jack Kent. Those were the two dynamic
men having t o do with t h i s thing, particularly Jack Kent.
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper:
1
..
I
He b u i l t up, r i g h t out of h i s own strength, the c i t y
planning department. [A department of c i t y and regional
planning with T.J. Kent, Jr., chairman, was established
i n J u l y 1948.1 And i t is he, more than anybody e l s e ,
t h a t maneuvered and organized and saw t h a t i t was the
proper balance i n the College of Envirormental Design.
[ ~ s t s b l i s h e di n the f a l l of 19591 For example -- t h i s
is a good example -- he s a w t o i t t h a t the dean of the
college should not be the chairman of any one department,
by which he p a r t i c u l a r l y meant not the chairman of the
department of architecture, because t h a t would make the
other two j u s t secondary citizeqs. A l l s o r t s of things
l i k e t h a t -- it's a very c a r e f u l l y worked out plan.
Would there ever be any reason o r chance of having a
college of the arts, similarly worked out?
No, I've opposed t h a t ever since f a i r l y early, When I
first got i n t e r e s t e d i n bringing the c r e a t i v e s i d e i n t o
the Gniversity environment I was so pessimistic about
carrying the College of Letters and Science t h a t I thought
the only way i t could be done would be t o have a separate
college of arts, l i k e what they have i n Los Angeles.
However, i t would be a second-best. And j u s t es soon as
I found I had a sympathetic ear -- i t was a l l kinds of a
b a t t l e , as you know -- a s u f f i c i e n t l y sympathetic ear s o
t h a t i t looked a s though you could g e t a department of art
with c r e a t i v e artists i n i t i n the College of L e t t e r s and
Science, I never f o r a moment stopped working f o r that,
That is the r e e l solution because i t meens t h a t the crea-
t i v e s i d e is p a r t of the c u l t u r a l educstion of a liberally-
Pepper:
I

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1 Pepper: 

I 

I

1

I
1

1

1

i

I 

I

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1

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1

I

!
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educated man. Music, of course, went r i g h t along with me.
And i t vas t h e o r e t i c a l l y easy t o s e e t h a t once you've g o t
the p a t t e r n s t a r t e d it would go on i n t o drama.
Depar tnent of English
But I've predicted, and it's been true, t h a t the last
c r e a t i v e fine arts department t h a t would recognize the
need t o have c r e a t i v e people i n i t would be the English
department. So i t was, and so i t is, There are poets
who a r e Ph.D.s i n the English department, and of course
t h a t ' s fine. But it's only a half-recognition of the
s o l u t i o n t o the problem. M
e
n l i k e Shorer and George
Stewart and do Miles i n a way don't count, because they
a r e f i n e scholars as well, But l a t e l y they do have a
f e w poets in there who a r e n o t Ph.D.s, just l a t e l y ,
I ' m a f r a i d t h a t the speech department has been a source
of prodding f o r t h i s , but it's okay. The English depart-
ment has recognized t h i s need. And across t h e country i t
has become more o r less recognized.
A man we're considering and hope t o get at San Diego
t o head and staff t h e Bnglish department down there, t o
m
y great i n t e r e s t and I think some suprise, when we asked
him what h i s plan f o r the s t r u c t u r e of the English depart-
ment was -- he's the head of a department now at t h e Uni-
v e r s i t y of Washington (I can say t h a t now [ s e v e r a l months
a f t e r the interview] for he declined the San Diego o f f e r )
-- s a i d t h a t he believed i n a balanced department of his-
tory, c r i t i c i s m , and c r e a t i v e work. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
i
Riess: 	 W
a
s i t Henry Nash Smith who brought i n the poets here?
Pepper: 	 I'm a f r a i d not. I think he would s t a n d on the other side.
I would have t o say these things v i t h considerable demur,
and I don't know who would be on which s i d e , but my guess
is t h a t he would be s k e p t i c a l of poets without Ph.D.s --
and there a r e some surprises. Caldwell, for instance,
who is himself something of a poet;has some l i t t l e repu-
t a t i o n t h a t way, is, t o iny mind, on t h e wrong side. lie's
blocked c r e a t i v e artists on the f a c u l t y r i g h t down t h e l i n e .
He's never been sympatheticwith my s t t i t u d e about this.
Queer.
Pepper: Now, there's one thing I haven't spoken about but which was
very close t o my h e a r t at one time -- I guess I'd kind of
fargo t ten about it, because i t ceases t o be important
since i t s vzlue i s now p r e t t y well recobmized -- and t h a t
is the place of appreciation courses, s t r a i g h t apprecia-
t i o n courses, i d e a l l y with no c r e d i t a t a l l , but you f i n d
you don't get students coming unless you give c r e d i t .
But low-credit, one t o two u n i t s , a minimum of required
reading, with t h t big point being exposure under competent
men who point out, malyse, give a clue t o what you should
look f o r o r listen t o , I don't know whether I've s a i d i t
befcre, but the course a t Karvard tint did more for me i n
a s h o r t time than any course I took there. was a r a t h e r
poorly-given appreciation course i n music. That s e t the
urge i n me. I have defended these appreciation courses
a g a i n s t most of the faculty.
Pepper: But i t was s c i e n t i s t s t h a t understood. 1t ' s the
experimental s c i e n t i s t who understands creation m d who
understands, t o some extent, the importance of g e t t i n g
people t o have a sense of what's created. Not but what
a good many history courses, and certainly most critical
courses, do a l o t of appreciative development of the
~ t u d e n t ,but t h e r e are r e l a t i v e l y few students who have
time to take many such courses, If n student could only
have one whack at music, l e t ' s say, o r one whack ~t art,
an appreciation course, properly given, does more for him
i n future enjoyment and f u t u r e understxding of music,
o r paintin<, than any other kind of course you can give.
But i t has t o be given by a competent man and .
a man who
has a genuinely humane sense, he's not ashmed of it,
he's doing i t f o r the sake of the c u l t u r a l expansion and
enjoyment t h a t the students w i l l have.
Elkus gave such a course here, Music 27, perfectly,
f o r years. Beuhaus gave an appreciation course q u i t e
well, I won't say perfectly, too much Neuhaus anecdotes
came in. [ ~aughter] Nevertheless, i t was continued
by Jim HcCrae, I haven't looked over the catalog now,
but after Neuhaus qave i t up, McCrae gave an equivalent.
When Elkus dropped i t i t was then taken over by somebody
else i n the music department, a man who had one of these
scholarly consciences. Its enrollment dropped and i t
went t o pieces i n no time. It has since, I understand,
been revived under a dynamic i n s t r u c t o r with renewed .
S U C C ~ S ~ .
I'm r e m i d d of t h i s because we had Randall Thompson
Pepper:
, .
1
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' Riess:
!
f
I Pepper:
i
I
I
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i
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:
1
Riess:
here f o r a while, who is a musician, a composer of interna-
t i o n a l rank, one of the g r e a t choral men -- he went t o
Harvard eventually. And he and I fought t h i s thing out
over committees time and time again. I think I can say
t h a t I always won. But i t w a s a p e s t t o me because with
h i s reputation he was a hard man t o beat. He w a s a
musician, a composer, and a lover of music, and he thought
t h i s was n o t good instruction. And here was I, a non-
musician.
You were f i g h t i n g the music department's b a t t l e a t t h i s
time?
Well, I was f i g h t i n g across the board. But the i s s u e w a s
music, i n t h i s case. W
e were very close f r i e n d s , but we
were l i k e c a t s and dogs on t h i s issue. He regarded i t as
unbecoming i n a great university t o a d u l t e r a t e music. In
a c e r t a i n way he had a kind of r e l i g i o u s fervor a b o u t i t
and f e l t t h a t t h i s was demeaning it. A g r e a t many men do.
So I defend appreciation courses properly given. I
don't regard an appreciation course, so-called, as properly
t
given when they burden the students with a whole l o t of
reading, o r even when they burden them too much with
remembering themes, which is another way of doing it. A
l i t t l e of t h a t is okay, but you can wreck a course of
t h a t kind t h a t way. Exposure is the thing. S t a r t i n g
with r e l a t i v e l y s i n p l e things t h a t they understand, g e t t i n g
more and more complex. F i n a l l y they can go t o a concert
and l i s t e n t o the most modern music going, and understand
it.
Of course i t sounds l i k e i t might well be the kind of
"guttt course t h a t everyone is searching for.
Pepper:
, Riess:
ii Pepper:
,
1
j Riess: - -
1
.I Pepper:
That1s a l l r i g h t with me. The more popular the better,
provided it is given by a man who is leading them, i n t h i s
way, towards a r i c h e r and r i c h e r understanding of music.
And of course they don't know harmony, they don't know
the chords, but they can g e t an awfully good sense of
structure, t h a t can be done. Don't burden them with too
much h i story.
Incidentally, you have what amounts t o t h i s kind of
course i n physics and zoology, Physics 10 and Zoology 10,
and they a r e developed d e f i n i t e l y on these l i n e s and they
put t h e i r best men i n t o it. Eakin i n zoology. Non-
laboratory courses.
And Teller i n physics.
I forget who i t has been i n physics. It used t o be given
by Hildebrand i n chemistry. Vas i t Hildebrand? Well,
Hildebrand would be good on t h a t s o r t of thing. I hope
you've got Hildebrand '
s story, because he' s been involved
more deeply i n more issues than perhaps anyone at U.G.
It would be very interesting to g e t h i s point of view
since, f o r instance, he w a s on t h a t first loyalty oath
committee, which w a s repudiated.
I think there i s a l o t i n the interview with him on h i s
theories of education.
Well, he's kind of daffy on it, I think. I think he is
j u s t i f i e d i n a l o t of what he says, and he gives lip-ser-
vice to the good things about the Dewey s o r t of business.
But I don't think he has any appreciation of the d i f f i c u l t y
t h a t the education department has with the great mass of
school students who a r e never going to college, many of
whom can't even make high school. They've got to do the
Pepper: best they can with these kids. Furthermore, though I think
, that Deweyism -- which is not what Dewey himself wanted,
that went much too f a r and had some awfully sloppy r e s u l t s
-- what Dewey had i n mind reformed education i n a direction
that w a s very essential. The Sacramento County school
association made up of a l l kinds of school o f f i c e r s asked
m
e up about a month o r two ago t o give a t a l k on education
t o them. I ' l l give you a copy of that. That shows just
where I stand on this, and shows j u s t where 1 d i f f e r .from
Joel. [copy of t a l k appended]
Criticism and Theory Courses
Riess: W
e haven't spoken about the third part of your structure
of the art department, the theory part. I n t h i s brief
h i s t o r i c a l account of the Berkeley art department [copy
appended] you indicate you're not happy with that.
Pepper: No, the t h i r d part has never developed. It is squeezed
out, and I ' m a f r a i d i t w i l l never g e t r e a l l y in. There
are men i n the department who i n one way o r another keep
i t up, but not formally, and there's no major i n it. It
should be a major i n criticism.
I think probably I was embarrassed about i t because
that w a s m
y area, s o I never pressed i t there. I n a way
I had enough t o do, bndgetarily and otherwise, and i t
would have taken kind of autocratic pushing to put i t
through because neither of the other two groups were
r e a l l y interested. The historians, I think, regarded
criticism -- t h a t is, what I regarded as criticism -- as
h i s t o r i c a l l y superficial, which i t is. We sweep r i g h t
Pepper: 	 a c r o s s the f i e l d a e s t h e t i c a l l y , W
e pick out our examples
anywhere, which means t h a t ve a r e omitting r o o t s and
d e t a i l s which t o them a r e v i t a l , From the c r i t i c a l angle
they're n o t v i t a l . So from the h i s t o r i c a l angle t h i s
looks superficial. But we're heading f o r d i f f e r e n t things.
And the artists a r e n ' t i n t e r e s t e d because they're n o t
i n t e r e s t e d , [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Riess: 	 But some person n i g h t turn up i n the department and bring
i t t o l i f e , do you think? O r is t h a t inconceivable?
Pepper: 	 Oh, I think i t would be fine, but I'm kind of pessimistic.
I t would need another person coning i n as chairman of the
department [laughter] who would have the confidence of the
administration and the department, once more, and he would
have t o f i n d h i s men. But I think once i t was one i t
would go,
I ' m a f r a i d -- you see, t h a t art department has become
enormous now. Greatness kind of does some damaging things
too: i t has l e d i n e v i t a b l y and, under the circumstances,
properly, t o the artists doing t h e i r affairs and the his-
t o r i a n s doing t h e i r s , n e i t h e r i n t e r f e r i n g with the other,
which is q u i t e proper. Separate meetings t o some degree,
I don't know what they do about terminal decisions on
appointments, but I'm q u i t e sure, and t h i s is proper,
that n e i t h e r s i d e would veto a decision of the other;
they wouldn't knov enough, and they ishouldn't, What
remains, and 1 still think i t is worth the remainder,
is t h a t they are meeting i n the same office. They do
occasionally meet; they rub shoulders t o a considerable
extent. But the s i t u a t i o n is such t h a t t h e r e is nobody
who .is i n a position t o consider from a broad point of
view what the b e s t educational aims of the department as
Pepper: a whole should be. So I have no hope f o r the t h i r d part.
Riess: And i f criticism and theory developed as a really strong
third part, that might well mean a corresponding develop-
ment i n the music department, f o r Instance, o r i n the
drama department.
Pepper: It would add more men.
Riess: I t sounds strange t o have a university training music
c r i t i c s or art c r i t i c s , such a special thing.
Pepper: I n music it's not quite s o essential because a musicola-
g i s t is, by necessity, a good deal of a theorist. Also,
the composers, by necessity, have to do an awful l o t of
theorizing about their scales. And there's a l o t of
theory, much more there than there is i n the visual arts.
I t i s n ' t j u s t training c r i t i c s t h a t one is thinking
about. It is the organization of the structural relations
of the materials, the forms, and t h a t s o r t of thing. It's
a c u ~ i o u sthing that the historians don't do it. They're
looking f o r social influences, and mutual influences of
artist on artist. You v i l l , among historians, sometimes
get a discussion of the development of s t y l e , and some
awfully good vork has been done on that score.
I think the best chance f o r t h i s happening is theway
i t happened in English, where a certain group of men
revolt against an extreme h i s t o r i c a l bias, I guess, and
say, "How, look here. There is a very important question
i n English i n the understanding of what a poem is about
rather than tracing out its influences and the social re-
l a t i o n s of the times and a l l this." "What's the point?'
"What i s the novel?" "What is meant by the streamof
consciousness b u s i n e ~ s ? ~
That's criticism, you see.
Riess:
Pepper:
-
Yes: what is the point of comunicating i n j u s t t h i s form?
Yes, t h a t ' s it. So t h a t where they're dealing with form,
with the development of form, the development of s t y l e s ,
a l l the s o r t of thing t h a t goes i n t o the prefaces of Henry
James, t h a t ' s c r i t i c i s m and theory. There's quantities and
q u a n t i t i e s of that s o r t of thing that the historian doesn't
touch, and of course the creative artist is doing i t , s o he
bsn' t touching it,
No, i t ' s not j u s t training c r i t i c s ; you would g e t
t h a t anyway, among other things. You're developing a
study of the norms of c r i t i c i s m which, by the way, is
some job. And these norms a r e rather peouliar t o each
of the arts. General aesthetias of the kind t h a t I do,
t h i s is one of its chief interests. However, one thing
you discover is that though you have a general theory of
norms, they take on new manifestations when they move
i n t o the individual f i e l d s . I n sculpture it's one thing;
i n architecture, with its s o c i a l elements, it's another.
A piece of architecture t h a t doesn't represent its time,
what does t h a t mean? Sam Hume's house up here misses i n
a t e r r i f i c a l l y important p a r t because i t doesn't represent
its time. It's beautiful i n its l i n e s and a l l , it's ima-
ginative, but gosh, i t doesn*t represent its time. As
compared with Wurster's new Unitarian church. That's a
good example. J u s t as imaginative, and i t represents its
time. It is no Gothic cathedral, nor is i t the Unitarian
church of New England, which has its history. It's a
Unitarian church i n Berkeley. low, what goes i n t o deter-
mining these c r i t e r i a w i l l never be d i r e c t l y used by an
art c r i t i c , but it w i l l l i e behind everything he writes.
Pepper
f
i
i
t
1
i
1
I
j
1 ,
1 Pepper:
I
And then, critics are of different kinds. There is
the newspaper c r i t i c , and I think the good ones are
awfully important. But the most important c r i t i c s a r e
i n the next l i n e , i n l i t e r a t u r e , f o r instance the men
t h a t a r e writing i n the Antioch Review and who come out
with books. Perhaps a collection of essays, or a whole
book. Seven Types of Ambiguity is a f i n e example of the
kind of thing I ' m talking about. [seven Types of Ambiguity
by W i l l i a m Empson, Chatto & Yindus, 1953.1
So there's a big need f o r this. In f a c t , to m
y mind
it's the core of the whole thing as f a r as understanding
goes. It has j u s t the r e l z t i o n to the arts i n r e l a t i o n
t o h i s t o r y t h a t philosophy has i n r e l a t i o n to history
i n general. History explains things horizonally and i t
has universal sweep. Philosophy explains things verti-
cally, so t o speak, and f t a l s o has universal sweep.
A l l other S U ~ J ~ C ~ S
a r e s p e c i a l t i e s , with limited sweep.
' Philosophy's Place i n the Curriculum
Here is another thing: When the last reorganization of 

the Letters and Science curriculum took place here --

and i t was put over i n a way t h a t I think was p r e t t y 

low -- one of the last things t h a t Davis did -- and I 

think he was quite r i g h t t h a t i t was high time to have 

an examination of the Letters and Science set-up -- was

gather together a committee with Chretien and F r e t t e r , 

the new dean over there, and a few others. W
e a l l knew 

about it, but there w a s very l i t t l e conference outside. 

Pepper:
i!
ii
!
!
,
\I
I
And when the plan came out, and i t was t o be put through
i n a s e r i e s of meetings quickly, we discovered t h a t
philosophy w a s taken out of the n i c e position i t had
t h e r e -- i t was unique i n t h e country i n the p o s i t i o n
i t hdd,and maybe i t w a s too favored, but a t l e a s t i t
was well-favored -- and j u s t amalgamated with the humani-
t i e s i n the most banal kind o f organization -- j u s t l i k e
any other u n i v e r s i t y -- of the physical sciences, the
b i o l o g i c a l sciences, the humanities, and the s o c i a l
sciences. There was no imagination i n t h i s thing; i t
was j u s t what everybody e l s e was doing.
1 was chhirman of the department a t the time, and
r e a l l y I was shocked and grieved and everything l i k e
t h a t t h a t cones, and immediately gathered the department
together to s e e what we could do t o block t h i s thing o f f ,
a t least as far as w
e were concerned. Ana the schqme w
e
came out with f o r the philosophy s i d e of i t I think is
the r a t i o n a l one, and t h a t is t h a t h i s t o r y and philosophy
belong together. They do something i n t h i s v e r t i c a l -
h o r i z o n t a l business t h a t no o t h e r s t u d i e s can do.
Our p l a n was t o put h i s t o r y and philosophy together
as a group. These groups are divided up i n t o many require-
ments, along with the broad breadth requirements: h i s t o r y
and philosophy would be i n a group; then you would have
the languages, and perhaps the arts separately. As I
s a i d a moment ago [laughing] , the humani t i e s is s mess;
you know what the s o c i a l sciences a r e , and of course the
physical and the b i o l o g i c a l sciences are easy t o define,
but the humanities is j u s t a catch-all. They c o n s i s t , i f
Pepper: you look a t them, of foreign languages, English and the
arts, and philosophy and history, although h i s t o r y Is
o f t e n placed ambiguously with the s o c i a l sciences, which
again shows there's something funny about history. And
philosophy doesn't belong t o anything e l s e i n there. M
y
idea was t o put philosophy and history as a group, and
then the remainder of the hummities i n t o the arts and
the languages.
Riess: And t h a t f a i l e d ?
Pepper: All w
e were asking f o r was history and philosophy t o be
i n a group, and t h a t was what f a i l e d by one vote.
Riess: Bow the student picks from a very l a r g e number of humani-
ties courses.
Pepper: The r e s u l t is t h a t our undergraduate enrollment i n philos-
ophy has gradually gone down, down, dovn. Our upper divi-
s i o n enrollment has gone up, f o r some reason which 1 don't
q u i t e understand. But i t 'vas a very good thing, I think,
f o r the education of the student thzt a very l a r g e number
of students had at l e a s t one elementary course i n philos-
ophy. The enrollments i n 6A-B and the h i s t o r y of philos-
dphy course -- logic I'm not counting i n t h i s , I don't
regard t h s t as philosophy i n t h i s sense, t h a t ' s a speci-
a l i t y -- but the enrollment i n the introduction t o phi-
losophy, and history, ran t o something l i k e 1500 a year.
And I think i t ' s somewhere down half of t h a t now.
Buildings and Campus Development Committee
-
i Pepper: The building business, the contracting, was another thing
4
Pepper: 	 I came i n on. I might as well speak now about that, about
the gradual take-over of the buildings and grounds, other
than actual contracting, by the faculty, That was done
rather recently,
This has t o do with the so-called BCD committee,
Buildings and Campus Development Committee, This was an
administrative committee t h a t was very much of a rubber
1
I 	 stamp through early years. I n fact, i t didn't have any
i
q 
 particular function.
1
I
i When I came here the whole a r c h i t e c t u r a l and ground
s i d e of the campus was under a campus a r c h i t e c t , who was
i John Galen Howard [supervising Architect of the University,
i
1 1902-19271. He did, on the whole, a very good job. He was
I r a t h e r academic. He was head of the architecture depart-
I	 ment and school too at t h a t time, And he l e f t some dis-
i tinguished buildings and a good many r a t h e r humdrum ones.
i
1	 But on the whole he kept the campus i n order,
1 Riess: Buildings f o r which he was the architect?
1 Pepper: I think for most of them. I ' m n o t sure. That would be
I very i n t e r e s t i n g and you could check up on t h a t with
I
W i l l i a m Hays. He has a l l of t h a t s t u f f down i n g r e a t
detail-*
Then Howard gave up, under rather unfortunate condi-
tions, he f e l t kind of pushed out. Maybe he was, but
there is another thing where I've heard the whole s t o r y
and now i t has kind of gone out of m
y mind. Hays has the
d e t a i l , He should t e l l the s t o r y of the resignation of
Howard because i t w a s rather sad, a r e a l l y g r e a t man on
*An interview w i t h W i l l i a m Hays by the Regional Cultural
History Project is i n process. [ed.]
Peppers the campus who did g r e a t things.
Howard w a s followed by another campus a r c h i t e c t , George
Kelham [supervising Arahitect of the University, approx.
1927-19381. And Kelham did the Life Sciences Building,
which is a r e a l atrocity. I don't know what I would have
done without that building f o r a e s t h e t i c s because i t had
about everything t h a t was a r c h i t e c t u r a l l y wrong about it,
including its complete lack of proportion t o everything
e l s e i n the campus. -
Then Kelham was followed by Arthur Brown, Jr. [super-
v i s i n g Architect of the University, 1938-19481. Arthur
Brown might have been s a i d t o be an improvement. I don't
know. He didn't do things that were so bad, but they
were u t t e r l y dull. The administration building, Sproul
H a l l , is a typical example of him. Now, 1 think he was
kind of put out; he was awfully anxious f o r praise and I
. j u s t couldn't give him praise. H i s daughter was i n my
a e s t h e t i c s class. H
e had me over to the P a c i f i c Union
Club, t h a t swell San Francisco club on top of Mob H i l l
t h a t used t o be the S.P. Club. Itnsure what he r e a l l y
wahted was f o r me t o say just a l i t t l e something nice
about h i s architecture, but I wouldn't. So i t was a f i n e
thing when he ceased t o be campus a r c h i t e c t , and t h a t s o r t
of happened by i n e r t i a , I think.
Then came a t e r r i b l e period where there was no
authority whatever [position of supervising a r c h i t e c t
vacant, 1.948-19553, Buildings were going up, and t h i s
[ ~ w i n e l l eb all] is one of them, without anybody knowing
who was having charge of these things. And the BCD
was a rubber-stamp committee.
Pepper: Two men vere the first instrumental i n changing t h i s .
One was Charles Aikin, and the other man vas P.M. Barr.
( ~ e
vas i n the a g r i c u l t u r e school on the Berkeley campus,
a very conscientious man vho died young of one of these
incurable diseases, the kind t h a t j u s t takes the muscles
away. I t was very sad. ) These two men began to make a
l i t t l e headway. Then Walter Horn came i n [1951-521. That
is, they found out how much he knew about these things, s o
they brought him in. And he brought m
e i n [1953-541. By
the time I g o t i n a g r e a t deal of headway had been made
i n t h i s committee i n finding out who was i n charge. I t
turned out t h a t there was good reason why you had t o go
with d e l i c a t e fingers, because i t was Corley, the con-
t r o l l e r , t h a t w a s doing t h i s , and h i s one conception of
an a r c h i t e c t w a s somebody t h a t p o l i t i c a l l y helped the
budget i n Sacramento. As f o r the placing of the buildings,
t h a t was j u s t done by looking at a campus nap and f i n d i n g
an open place and p u t t i n g a building there. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
It was r e a l l y awful.
For instance, things were so bad t h a t a p e t i t i o n which
explained the problems, how chaotic campus planning was,
was w r i t t e n i n my dining room -- i t was written mostly
by Jack Kent, a f t e r he w a s brought here f o r c i t y plan-
ning. Horn w a s t h e r e too when i t was written. (This was
p r i o r t o the BCD committee, incidentally. ) Seventy-five
t o 100 f a c u l t y men signed i t and i t was s e n t t o Sproul
where i t f e l l on deaf ears. I n f a c t , a f t e r nothing had
happened about i t , Kent received a l e t t e r from Sproul
saying something about parking and t r a f f i c d i f f i c u l t y
on campus, and t h a t Sproul would be pleased i f Kent
i
Pepper: would give him a report on that. Kent threw i t out; he
j u s t wanted nothing t o do with t h i s patchwork solution,
Now, i f you pick up the BCD personn&l a t the time
t h a t I came i n on t h a t committee you can s e e t h a t t h a t
was a very e f f e c t i v e group of men.* They had courage,
they burst the thing open. Fortunately, about t h a t time
Rerr became chsncellor. Kerr was greatly annoyed by the
controller and was not browbeaten by the president, and
with h i s assistance the faculty pulled t h i s whole busi-
ness out from under the controller. It .now l i e s i n the
hands of t h i s -cornmit t e e and its subcommittees, plus a
c o m i t t e e on which there is a regent and the dean of
architecture and a chancellor [cornmi t t e e on Campus
planning] -- I think t h a t ' s the c o m i t t e e -- t h a t has
f i n a l say, next t o the regents, as t o vho the architeot
v i 1
1 be.
Well, here is another case where the faculty took
over a bad s i t u a t i o n and you could ilnmediately see the
Bifference. But the faculty hasn' t e n t i r e l y taken over
because t h i s regent, dean, chancellor business -- they
wouldn't q u i t e allow the faculty to do I t all. This I s
not e n t i r e l y happy, not e n t i r e l y a good thing t o have a
member of the regents on a faculty committee, but i t has
worked b e t t e r than anything s i n c e Howard, and I guess
mybe 'it's the best we can do, i n a compromise way.
*C.W. Brown, C. Aikin, D.S. Berry, F
.
O
. Harris, W.W. Horn,
P.F. Keim, E.G. Linsley, M.A. Milczewski, S.C. Pepper,
R.E. Powell, F.J..Violich, H.E. White, R. Routsong (secre-
t a r y ) , H.F. Weaver, Business Manager Representative (Con-
s u l t a n t ) ; Dean, School of Architecture* Superintendent of
Grounds and Buildings (both ex officioj.
Bfess: T h i s c o m k t t e e s e l e c t s the a r c h i t e c t and the site?
Pepper: This c o r n i t t e e s e l e c t s the a r c h i t e c t and the s i t e . However,
one subcornittee of the BCD committee goes over i t i n
g r e a t d e t a i l first. I t has t h a t authority. And i t gives
its advice. So the f a c u l t y has a very strong voice i n the
s i t u a t i o n now.
Bfess: And the long-range development plans. What does the BCD
c ~ m i t t e e
have t o do with these?
Pepper: That planning was brought about, i f I r e c o l l e c t correctly,
through the a c t i o n of t h i s committee.* And the recommen-
dation f c r a landscape a r c h i t e c t , now Thomas Church, and
formerly Lawrence Halprin, was brought about by t h i s
committee. I think t h i s new plan was a recommendation
of t h i s committee which involved Halprin and Church.
Somebody e l s e who i s very important i n t h i s is t h e head
~f the a r c h i t e c t s and engineers here on t h i s campus,
Louis DeMonte. He was i n a very tough position through
all of t h i s because technically he was Corley's subor-
dinate, y e t h i s sympathies were a l l with us. He had a
hard game t o play and he played i t very, very t a c t f u l l y .
There's a l s o a v i l l a i n over there whom Kerr, vhen he
became president, I don't think q u i t e eliminated, but
he got him i n t o l i n e . And Corley w a s a real problem.
Riess: What would Corley do?
Pepper: He knew who the a r c h i t e c t s and contrectors were who would
have perhaps i n d i r e c t , r a t h e r than d i r e c t , i n 4luence by
t h e i r r e l a t i o n s t o s t a t e senators and such l i k e .
For f u r t h e r d e t a i l s , and the present s t a t e of campus
planning, see nLong Range Development Plan,n University
of California, Berkeley, June 1962, by the Campus Planning
Comait t e e and the Off i c e of Architects and Engineers.
Riess: 	 T h i s sounds l i k e i t would f a i r l y well eliminate the chance
of good and imaginative architecture,
Peppert 	 Oh, yes. But vhat r e a l l y eliminated i t was that Corley
has no more taste than a barrel of cement. [laughter]
I t was awful!
Walter and I and another fellow generally from the
BCD committee would g e t together at my house i n l a t e
afternoons over a highball, and m y different problems
were gone through that way. So -- t h a t ' s another very
important committee i n the history of the University.
Riess: 	 While we're speaking of architecture, did you know Haybeck?
Pepper: 	 Yes, he was our neighbor as a very old man, and he remained
a very old man, never changing at a l l from the man of some-
where around 70, I guess, when we came up there, u n t i l he
died at 90-something. He was a sweet s o r t of fellow. He
was a r e a l artist. Every once i n a while we'd have some
s o r t of contact with him and he'd t e l l vhat he was doing.
I think about the last important thing he was doing was a
campus i n Wissouri. He told us about that. ~ e ' d
do t h a t
s o r t of thing.
' Riess: But he wasn't very involved i n t h i s campus development?
Pepper: No. There was a l i t t l e sad s t o r y there, He was on the
i staff before Howard came. You cauldn8t have two such
1 big men, One must be head and the other not at all. So
i
i 	 that w a s that.
!
1
4 

1	 A University Museum
i
i
1 Riess: Professor Ileuhaus, I understand, had a l o t to do w i t h the
1 conversion i n t o the University Gallery of an old powerhouse.
Pepper:
1
1
1
L
,
: Riess:
4
i
1 Pepper:
Well, I'll see what f can do i n giving you what f know of
the history of museums here, That is a great lack, and
early i n m
y chairmanship I began talking &oun;d the campus
about the importance eventually of having a museum here,
For some reason o r other Kroeber was dead s e t against
it. "The only f-mction of a museum is as a research area
i n a university." 1 think a t t h a t t i m e the only example
of an important, growing university museum was the Pogg
Museum at Harvard, and that, he thought, was a mistake;
he had a book that he handed t o me on t h i s score, H i s
influence, along with that of Dean Lipman, of whom I have
spoken before on the Ph.D, Issue, w a s such that i t resulted
i n a regents memorandum, which fortunately was loosely
s t a t e d but the intention of i t was t o c u t out an art
museum i n any aesthetic sense permanently from the Uni-
versity as a waste of money.
Money was the reason? Hot that there w a s anything bad
about it, but that there were no good reasons t o spend
money f o r it?
Yes. It goes on a l l fours with the kind of opposition
that Elkus and 1 had t o combat about artists and composers
on the faculty, t h a t the only proper pursuit here was
research and experiment and teaching, that there w a s no
proper place for the oreative men. And incidentally, I
ran up against exactly that same thing a t San Diego last
week i n the advisory committee down there. A group of
young Turks down there, taking advantage of the diffi-
culty of g e t t i n g scholars t o come t o the English depart-
ment because of the lack of library, had the bright idea
-- you see, i t was one of those things just l i k e here
Pepper: 	 where they have a good idea but they go so far t h a t I have
t o f i g h t it, though I've fought for the very same thing
elsewhere -- of g e t t i n g i n a l o t of poets and novelists
t o start the English department. And t h a t would be a
brand-new idea, and if i t were a l l wrong, okay, i t would
be spectacular. [~ d u ~ h t e r ]
This came up i n the advisory
c o m i t t e e , of course, a n d one of the men on the comrnit t e e
-- he is a s o c i a l s c i e n t i s t -- voiced exactly the banali-
t i e s t h a t I ' d had t o f i g h t what was i t ? t h i r t y years ago.
That by definition a university is a place i n which the
knowledge of t r a d i t i o n is preserved and new research i n t o
the f r o n t i e r s goes on; it's a place f o r research and s o
on and so on, but not a place f o r artists; and i n Europe
i t hzd been t h i s way, and s o on.
Riess: 	 Was he i n a majority?
Pepper: Oh, no. I'll give you h i s name, though I r e a l l y hate t o
do i t because I r e a l l y love the man, but that's l i s b i t .
He's vice-chancellor a t UC Riverside. He was here as a
young man through much of t h i s fighting. When he had
been doing t h i s f o r a while I stepped i n and gave m
y
l i t t l e story, you know, and I think he recognized r i g h t
off t h a t t h i s sounded very natural, and he closed r i g h t
up and he never made any more e f f o r t s i n t h i s way. No,
the concensus was f o r a balanced set-up, and I won't
give the name of the man t h a t they're considering because
t h a t ' s s t i l l confidential [ r e f e r W k t o p. 3131, but he
had mapped out what pleased me enormously, a balanced
department of history, criticism, and the creative side.
Now, this anti-museum, anti-aes thet i c art museum, a l l
research and study museum, goes on a l l fours with t h i s
Pepper: conception of the university and the inappropriateness of
anything t o do with the c r e a t i v e arts i n the university.
Riess: I t sounds strange t o me t h a t the regents would l a y down
a law f o r a l l time.
Pepper: It i s n ' t t h a t they s a i d s o much; when they make one of
these r u l e s it's a r u l e of policy, but i t can still be
reported on. 1'11 g i v e a l i t t l e more of the h i s t o r y of
t h i s because i t's somewhat e f f e c t i v e .
Now, that was the beginning. I ran r i g h t up a g a i n s t
a w a l l there. It was so far i n t h e f u t u r e though t h a t i t
wasn't something worth pressing and I had much more impor-
t a n t things t o do. But t h a t was the a t t i t u d e i n influen-
t i a l men on the f a c u l t y a t t h a t time.
Well, there w a s no decent place f o r e x h i b i t s here and
one of the fine things about Eugen is h i s perceptiveness
and a kind of inventiveness. He noticed the vacating
of the power building here when theyput the power plant
down below. And he a l s o noticed t h a t it's a charming
I l i t t l e b r i c k building and he suggested t h a t i t could
function as a g a l l e r y without too much expense. He took
h i s notion t o the president and talked about i t around
the club, and n a t u r a l l y I heard about it. WOW, I had
nnthing t o do with i t except t h a t I thought it was a f i n e
idea; t h a t is t o say, I wasn*t needed t o put any dynamics
i n t o t h i s idea, it was a very good one. Naturally he was
mdde the curator, o r d i r e c t o r , whatever i t was -- d i r e c t o r
seems too much of a t i t l e . H
e w a s given a name appropri-
ate, and given a very small sum of money t h a t he could use
f o r exhibitions there, and he put on some good shows with
very l i t t l e t o go on.
Riess: Were the WPA murals on the building at t h a t time?
Pepper: No, but t h a t vas done subsequently t o Heuhaus's idea, s o
t h a t t h i s came on very e a r l y [university Gallery was
dedicated i n May 19341. You see, the W
P
A business must
have been i n 1939 o r 1940, Did I mention, incidentally,
t h a t i t was the WPA t h a t rn~3dei t possible f o r us t o get
such a big boost i n the history of art s l i d e collection?
Horn w a s able t o g e t slide-binders and photographers.
The WPA was very, very important f o r Walter. And Walter
Horn is a marvelous organizer and took f u l l advantage of
it.
The WPA was hunting f o r places t o put things, and
Eugen was doing t h i s , and the murals seemed a good idea,
and I don't remember that i t produced, strangely enough,
any violent reactions, e i t h e r , though they were very modern
art for t h a t time.
Biess: And the building was redecorated.
Pepper: Well, i t was redone inside. And Eugen saw t o a l l that.
+ That w a s one of the very f i n e things t h a t he did. It's
a charming building.
, Riess: But t h a t didn't solve a l l of the museum problems.
Pepper: Ho, i t was j u s t an interim thing. It was a gallery, but
the museum idea, as I said, was o f f i c i a l l y out.
I Maybe I ' d b e t t e r go through the g a l l e r y f i r s t , but
i
1
I
there is more t o say about museums. Eugen had the g a l l e r y
f o r many, many years, and I don't exactly knov why he gave
Ii
i
i t up o r even whether i t was taken away from him. I t would
seem cruel to take i t away, I can't imagine that was done,
i n s p i t e of a l l the tensions t h a t there were, because
th$s was one of h i s pets.
! 

I . Pepper:
, :
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
j Pepper:
The next man t o take i t over was Duke Wellington
[winfield S c o t t ~ e l l i n ~ t o n ] .How, Wellington is as slow
as a g l a c i e r and he never, naver could have got the thing
going and on its f e e t the way Eugen did. But i t became,
I think, h i s chief pet. He g o t a l o t more money f o r i t
and I remember Eugen w a s j u s t l y r a t h e r piqued a t the f a c t
t h a t he hadn't gotten a s much money as Wellington got,
though goodness knows Wellington didn't g e t very much
e ithcr.
This wouldn't be a s p e c i a l endowment, but money from the
University budget?
I t was.budgeted i n some way, and i t w a s l i t t l e enough,
Wellington had a p e r f e c t l y extraordinary g i f t of
display, one of the f i n e s t display men, I think, i n the
country. The r e s u l t was t h a t the d i s t i n c t i o n of t h e
e x h i b i t s in t h i s kind of a vay was such as i t never had
been before and hasn't been since.
W
a
s he on the faculty, o r was he an outside person?
He was an a r c h i t e c t by profession and he w a s i n the dec-
o r a t i v e art department at t h a t time, as a l e c t u r e r o r
something. H e held i t f o r q u i t e a nunber of years and
then I think i n h i s case i t g o t t o be r a t h e r a burden
and -- and t h i s is f a i r l y recent -- i t evolved next on
-- well, there may have been somebody between Wellington
and Herman Schaefer, but maybe not. Schaefer has given
i t up too, hasn't he? With each change of new man t h a t
came in, the sum of money a v a i l a b l e increased, which
r e g u l a r l y annoyed the men behind. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Now i t
has g o t a place i n t h e University set-up much more
pepper: important, with changing e x h i b i t s and things, than i t has
ever had before. And t h i s is p a r t l y due t o a very aggres-
s i v e movement now going o n t o g e t a museum, a real, genuine
art museum.
So now 1'11 drop back t o see what I can remember about
that.
Riess: What s o r t of e x h i b i t s were there under Neuhaus and Welling-
ton?
Pepper: Their budget was negligible. But Wellington, p a r t l y
because of h i s major i n t e r e s t n o t i n painting but i n
craf't arts and so on, primitive art and decorative arts
material, gave show a f t e r show made up of materials from
the Hearst c o l l e c t i o n r i g h t here on campus. That was f i n e ,
f o r although a good many of us knew we had a treasure
there, we had no idea what wonderful s t u f f i t is and how
much of i t there is. He put those shows on beautifully,
and he would use some of t h i s as a nucleus and then g e t
loans from elsewhere. I think nearly a l l of h i s e x h i b i t s
vere unpaid-for. That is t o say, the expense would be i n
the way i t was put up, not i n the material o r even i n
insurance -- you wouldn't need e x t r a insurance on the
Hearst c o l l e c t i o n material.
Riess: I understand there is a l o t of s t u f f , art, s t o r e d away
around t h i s campus.
Pepper: Oh, yes, and then thank goodness we've g o t t h i s beautiful
s e t of s t u f f out here, which I hope s t a y s here forever
[ j a d e art objects i n h a l l s of f o u r t h f l o o r of Dwinelle
all]. Every once i n a v h i l e some f a c u l t y man says,
"Let's ahange it.A But I've always said, "Hos, look,
pepper: 	 t h i s is f o r the students, it i s n ' t f o r you. And the students
change every four years, They're not g e t t i n g s i c k of it,
and never v i l l . For goodness sake, leave i t e m
Riess: 	 Anthropology has exhibits in the lower p a r t of the Library.
Pepper: 	 They used t o have a window on Telegraph Avenue, too, i n
one of the ancient shops when the University owned those
buildings and rented them. They had a beautiful display.
Somebody i n anthropology does these t h i n ~ s
beautifully.
And the anthropological material, as you see, keeps coming
out. It's perfectly extraordinary. We've got a l o t of
f i n e s t u f f stored away. But i t was Kroeber who was the
c e n t r a l figure i n scotching the idea of an art museum.
And though they put up t h e i r anthropological material i n
a very t a s t e f u l way, they put up, often, some things that
somehow a r e not very i n t e r e s t i n g aesthetically, but they
excuse i t by having i t i n chronological order o r some
scholarly research order. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] It is s c i e n t i f i c .
But Kroeber did g e t t h a t statement through the regents.
The regents, of course, were interested i n it as a kind
of idea of permanent economy.
It's obvious t h a t you're never going t o g e t the s t a t e
t o give money f o r an art museum. I think probably even
the public would think there was something wrong about it.
A t any r a t e , t h a t ' s s o m e t h i ~ g
we have never even contem-
plated. So you have t o have an angel. S t i l l there would
be some state expense i n running i t , unless we g o t a b i g
endowment f o r the running of i t too.
This idea of an art museum, though, is something t h a t
was never out of m
y head, nor of Walter Horn's. A s he
1
pepper: 	 g o t older, Kroeber's influenoe ceased t o be s o strong, and
we g o t more art h i s t o r i a n s here and a kind of change of
a t t i t u d e among a l o t of the campus on these things. So
r i g h t at present I don't h o w i f I could spot anywhere
where I think t h e r e would be any opposition t o amount t o
anything, a t l e a s t among a l l the important people. They
would favor an art museum. Ever s i n c e Kerr had any o f f i -
c i a l p o s i t i o n of influence err became chancellor 1952-
531 he's done what he could i n t h a t direction. And Strong,
a t present, is doing what he can. The art museum now looks
q u i t e imminent.
But the thing would be t o f i n d the angel who would
give a million o r two. It's expensive. And i n a Univer-
s i t y l i k e t h i s i t needs t o be done on a good b i g scale.
That is t o say, i f you're n o t going t o do i t i n t h e ground-
hog kind of method t h a t we're doing now [laughing], then we
should have a d i r e c t o r who is a professional d i r e c t o r of
museums and head out f o r something t h a t would be comparable
t o what Yale has done ( t h e Fogg Museum a t Harvard has now
1
got such t h a t no u n i v e r s i t y can dream of competing with
i t , it's simply stupendous, but you could compete with
Yale). 	 And goodness gracious, a l l kinds of l i t t l e places
-- they've g o t a n i c e l i t t l e art museum a t the University
of Arizona, with Kress Collection material as its base.
Colby College s t a r t e d a l i t t l e art museum with a n i c e
building. W i l l i a m s has a small, magnificent collection,
and s o on, s o that now you have s o much 	 t h a t
Kroeber and Lipman couldn't g e t away with what they d i d
t h i r t y years ago,
Riess: 	 How would its r o l e and c o l l e c t i o n d i f f e r from the c i t y
museums of San Francisco?
Pepper: 	 It would be i n Berkeley, where i t is a v a i l a b l e to the
students. It would be exactly comparable t o the Fogg,
where there are two very f i n e museums i n Boston, The
kids here don't go over t o the museums i n the c i t y very
much. It's a g r e a t c u l t u r a l a s s e t t o have an art museum
r i g h t c l o s e t o a g r e a t university l i k e t h i s , It's p a r t
of the whole c u l t u r a l educational movement t o have such
a thing. And a place l i k e the Fogg does have differences
from the Boston museums. The big public museums have a
kind of an a i r about them, a l i t t l e commercial somehow.
They have the g r e a t public t o think of and they have a
group of wealthy patrons who a r e r a t h e r d i f f i c u l t t o
deal with, and these patrons have r a t h e r weak ideas of
taste.
I think there are only two non-university public
museums t h a t I know of t h a t have the university feel.
One is the Museum of Modern A r t i n M
e
w York, which is
unique. It isn' t a university type e i t h e r , but it has
a l i v e f e e l i n g , as though i t i s n ' t being bothered by a
public f o r whom i t is b e t t e r t o g e t a seoond-rate
Velasquez than i t i s t o get a dozen f i r s t - r a t e Pollacks,
you see. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
That's the kind of thing t h a t these
museums a r e up against. Mrs. Morley's museum i n t h e c i t y
an Francisco Museum of ~ r t ]
has something of t h a t f e e l ,
but again, she had her eye on the public. She did a
b e a u t i f u l job, though. (I s t i l l c a l l i t h e r museum; t h a t
was a scandalous thing the way they l e t h e r out or pushed
Pepper; 	 her out* ) Sut a university doesc' t have to keep 2 % eye 

on the public, and tlut gives I t a different air. To

get tho real feel of that air -- tne Fogg Huseuu has i t . 

It's an i n t i a t e , cnoice nuseum urlich you feel i s run by 

the experts for the experts, that is, the c r i t i c s and 

crt historians, for whdt they knov is good. 

fiiess: 	 Wes this mean that n o t.
as such a t t e ~ t i o n
would be paid
to changing exhibitions and new arrangeaents of thin&s?
Pspper: 	 Hot necessarily. On, it's a feel -- this ie not a good
analogy -- but it's soucthing of the difference of feel-
ine: that you get when you step onto the University of
California campus hvving beon dam t o San Jose or S a a
Diego Stzte C o h l e ~ e . It's funny, but it's just different.
This is on another level of seriousnesu an11 concentration
of iaterea t on quality.
Riess: Ghat is the other first-rate non-university museun?
Papper: That's tne Worcester Huseum i n Worcester, Kassachuset ts.
That's a 	
sweat little rauseum. It must have a pretty good
fenaobaent from sources t h - ~ t
mzke i t independent. There
have been a sur?risingly fine series of directors tmre.
The last one was Francis Taylor, vnen he resigned froa
the Metropolitan I~;useurnad went t s Worcester, and enjoyed
him.elf in Vorster, It has tnis kind of a c h ~ i c efeeling.
I kind of feel ~treiningsoing on in all three of the
clui;eums In S a Prancisco, even Wrs. %orleyts. They a l l
h ~ v e
a sort of scrwtlf ag, keeping-up-ui th-the-Joneses
8 feeling sbout the=. A m;eus here would not have certain
problem that those have t o deal with, i f i t once got
started. Ue'te a magnificent c ~ l l e c t f c ~
got of objets
d'art from the Heacst collection to keep exhibitions
Pepper: 	 going f o r a long time. I think changes of e x h i b i t s would
be j u s t about the same as i n a r e g u l a r museum, maybe a
l i t t l e more. They would have t h e i r eye n o t on the b i g
public; they would have i t on the campus.
Riess: 	 To i n i t i a t e and receive b i g exhibitions is an expensive
business.
Pepper: 	 Oh, now I don't think they would go out f o r g r e a t e x h i b i t s
i n the same way c i v i c museums do. I don' t know. The Fogg
Museum somehow g e t s very distinguished e x h i b i t s going.
I think the men make t h e i r own exhibits; they know where
t h e p i c t u r e s a r e and borrow them. But the Pogg exhibits,
they change frequently. They have a big c o l l e c t i o n of
p r i n t s and things of t h e i r own. I never f a i l t o go i n
there i f I have any time a t a l l i n Cambridge, and though
t h e r e a r e some things t h a t I always expect t o f i n d t h a t
a r e permanently up, there is a good d e a l of change.
Riess: 	 Would photography be appropriate i n such a museum?
Pepper: Oh, yes, i f it's f i n e photography, surely. And we've g o t
some f i n e photographers. 1 t ' s become an art.
Now, l e t me s t e p back, because there aresome other
funny things t h a t happened back i n there. I c a n ' t q u i t e
remember when a committee on t h e museum s t a r t e d . That
would have t o have been o f f i c i a l , and I don't think it
could have happened before Kerr became chancellor. About
t h a t time there was a very funny incident. Toward the
end of m
y chairmanship of the department I g o t a l e t t e r
from a man saying how backward t h i s u n i v e r s i t y w a s i n not
having a museum, t h a t i t w a s p e r f e c t l y ridiculous, and s o
on and s o on, and t h a t with j u s t a l i t t l e energy we could
g e t money. This s o u d e d kind of i n t e r e s t i n g , s o I g o t in
Pepper: touch with him and he came up t o the house. H
e gave the
impression of a man c e r t a i n l y well-off and a man who
associated with very wealthy people, c e r t a i n l y talked a
l o t about how he knew these people and a l l , and having
committed himself t h i s way I s a i d , uI'm i n a position t o
make i t worth your while t o g e t t h i s money f o r the Uni-
v e r s i t y i f you think you can do i t . " Well, he had gone
far enough s o t h a t he thought he had to go through with
it, and i t seemed t o m
e we raustn*t l e t anything go by,
though I did think he w a s a kind of a funny guy, s o 1
told Kerr about him.
This w a s e a r l y i n Kerr's administration as chancellor,
and he g o t together a committee and we met with him and
w
e t o l d him to go t o town. He s a i d he thought i t would
be Important t o give some i d e a of what the museum on
campus would be, and, my goodness, we g o t together
photographs of comparable things, very choice-looking,
a f o l i o kind of thing which he could take around, and
w
e put t h i s i n h i s hands, and off he went.
, Then Kerr said, "I've been looking i n t o him a b i t ,
and I f i n d he has a reputation of being r a t h e r a blowhard
and t r y i n g t o start things t h a t he c a n ' t c ~ m p l e t e . ~
[ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ] t h a t ' s I t was a complete
Well, what happened.
flop. W
e never heard from him again, he j u s t disappeared.
I think he t r i e d but the b e s t he could come up with w a s
t o g e t a p u b l i c i t y agent, you know, r a i s i n g money. W
e
could have thought t h a t up ourselves.
'
I've forgotten h i s name; I don't know t h a t i t makes
any difference. Poor fellow, I think he may have gone t o
oblivion. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
He was a doctor, and knew j u s t what
Pepper: 	 men o r women were going t o l i v e to a r i p e old age, and he
had some ways of improving t h e i r lives. He assured me
t h a t m
y wife would l i k e much longer than I would, which
sounded f i n e to me, but i t looked as i f I was doomed t o
a f a i r l y e a r l y death. It didn't bother me very much,
seeing t h a t one of my parents didn't d i e till 87 and the
other one hadn't till she w a s 911 Oh, but he was a funny
guy*
I guess the next thing was the appointment of the
Committee on Exhibitions and Museums, and Walter Horn
has been chairman of t h a t I think from the beginning.
Right now it is r e a l l y g e t t i n g serious. I met yesterday
with t h i s committee. A t one of our meetings, some months
ago, last f a l l , the i s s u e was as t o whether w
e should
start with some young man who looked competent but would
be inexpensive, or whether we should go i n f o r some
prominent man. The committee was somewhat divided, with
the weakhearts and the stronghearts, but Walter and I --
, we've s o often seen eye t o eye -- s a i d "Good gracious,
l e t ' s be dramatic. If you go i n hard, take a big chance,
you may g e t something fine. But you know gust what you
a r e going t o get, and i t i s n ' t going t o be very much, i f
you creep along at a timid pace."
There was a man, W i l l i a m M. Milliken, who had been
the d i r e c t o r of t h e Cleveland Museum [ u n t i l 1958, now
director emeritus] and had done j u s t the kind of thing
we want done here, t h a t is, he had created a great museum
within half of h i s lifetime, out of very l i t t l e , o r
nothing, by developing the enthusiasm of the community
f o r it. W
e were wondering how we could g e t him here,
1
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
and I was talking about t h i s at the Faculty Club at the
t a b l e there with somebody who knew a l o t about the
committee t h a t appoints Regents Professors, of vhich I
think Sontag is chairman. H
e said, i s n ' t very widely
known, but I know they're open t o ~ u g g e s t i o n . ~
So with t h ~ t
l i t t l e h i n t I went over and s a w Walter
and t o l d him what I'd learned. Walter immediately phoned
up t o Sontag, on the top f l o o r of the Library, and Sontag
made an appointment f o r us f o r t h a t very afternoon, and
within a week i t was done. [Laughter] That w a s the
speediest job. This fellow had been putting on the art
show at the World's Fair i n S e a t t l e and stopped off on
h i s way back j u s t t o find out what the l a y of the land
was. And h e ' l l be here next spring as a Regents Professor
spring 19631. The very top man. H e ' s kind of eneri t u s
how, but he's j u s t the man.
Incidentally, I see t h a t you're due t o give a Regents
Lecture [7 May 1962, *Role of S c i e n t i s t i n America 910dayn].
Yes, but I haven't written the lecture yet. This morning
w a s when I decided to,begin, but I sat down t o an unfin-
ished chapter of m
y book and I decided t o f i n i s h the
chapter, Of course, I didn't, I've still got t o f i n i s h
the chapter. And the l e c t u r e ' s still there. [Laughter]
But when Hilliken comes t h a t w i l l be the beginning of
real business, and we know t h a t both the chancellor and
the president a r e eager t o g e t a museum here, so that the
whole tone of things i s very, very different from t h i r t y
years ago.
I n between, t h i s same committee was asked t o look
i n t o ' t h e p o s s i b i l i t y of something t h a t the president, when
Pepper: he w a s chancellor, had much on h i s mind, a s o r t of student1:
workshop idea, whioh would not have involved too much money
and could have been used f o r a bigger exhibition room. It
was kind of a compromise idea between a museum and the
g a l l e r y we now have. I was not too enthusiastic about i t
because i t w a s a compromise.
Riess: An arts project room has developed i n the Student Union.
Pepper: That is a compromise with the compromise, and I think one
reason t h a t t h i s has not been brought up much more is
because the Student Union did take over p a r t of the idea.
But we're s e r i o u s f o r a museum.
Riess: Another campus g a l l e r y is the Worth Ryder Gallery i n
Kroeber H a l l .
Pepper: Yes, but t h a t ' s negligible.
Riess: Wasn't a g r e a t deal of thought put i n t o t h i s museum questio
at the time of the building of Kroeber H a l l ?
Pepper: No, not as far as the art s i d e went. W
e needed every
g a l l e r y space there f o r the operation of the department.
One of those g a l l e r i e s is completely given over t o putting
things up f o r the h i s t o r y students, and it's useless f o r
public exhibition, and the other is a l s o f o r student exhi-
b i t i o n and faculty exhibition but is occasionally used f o r
inexpensive outside shows, I believe, and t o good advantage
The graduate student showsare worth going to, too. But
t h i s is a department room and these a r e department exhibi-
tions. I think the department vould be glad t o have money
given f o r more, but it's e n t i r e l y a matter of the depart-
ment and has a q u i t e d i f f e r e n t f e e l from what i t would
have i f i t were under a museum director.
Riess: Youmentioned t h a t you had known Albert Bender.
Pepper: Yes, he is one of the g r e a t benevolent f i g u r e s of San
Francisco and the region. The number of artists t h a t he
.has kept from starving, nobody knows. He was a l i t t l e
I r i s h Jew who never married, a very, very successful
insurance man, q u i t e wealthy, and with nobody to leave h i s
money to. H i s whole idea was t o do goad i n the community,
p a r t i c u l a r l y i n the a e s t h e t i c area.
Riessr I think some artists objected t o h i s system of buying art
a t the barest subsistence wage and then giving i t w a y i n
h i s own o r Anne Bremer's name.
Pepper: What's the harm i n that? That's j u s t exactly what he did.
Why should he want t o keep the^? And t h i s helped the
artists and helped the museums. I think t h a t ' s a wonderful
idea. I w i l l say t h i s , t h a t a person doesn't l i k e t o be
an object of charity, and I can imagine t h a t artists who
had been supported by him might have t h a t kind of n a t u r a l
resentment. He had q u i t e a l i t t l e business with Bufano.
Bufano, by the way, i s some character. Bufano w a s
j u s t simply awful with regard t o Bender. Bufano has been
awful with regard t o everybody. He t r i e d very hard t o
involve me with him but I've had enough knowledge of
how unreliable he was and how he could r e a l l y be a danger
i n knifing you i n the back, s o t o speak, with things t h a t
he'd say t h a t weren't true, and s o on. I always kept him
w e l l a t arm's length.
Riess: Was he ever connected with the University?
Pepper: No, but he is c e r t a i n l y one of the outstanding sculptors
of the region here and the kind of man t h a t i f i t hacin't
been f o r h i s thoroughly unreliable character I would have
Pepper: l i k e d t o have known a good deal of, I saw a fair amount
of him, as much as I dared, But he was a man I d e f i n i t e l y
kept away from. I guess t h a t ' s about a l l I can say about
Bufano.
Bender was t r e a t e d very badly by Bufano, r e a l l y ,
because Bender d i d a l o t f o r him and then somehow he
would manage t o i n t e r p r e t i t i n such a way t h a t -- maybe
t h i s i s the kind of thing you're mentioning -- but Bender
was a sweet, sweet man. He l e f t some n i c e things t o the
Faculty Club and he l e f t a number of n i c e things t o the
University.
There used t o be a queer c o l l e c t i o n of p i c t u r e s down
i n the basement of Hearst, the girl's gym. I t may be
s t i l l there, When I first became chairman ~f the art
department I g o t wind of these, I happened t o go i n t o
the secretary's o f f i c e of one of t h e a g r i c u l t u r e depart-
ments down i n Giannini H a l l o r Hilgard H a l l -- I had some
reason t o go down t o t a l k t o a n a g r i c u l t u r e man -- and
here i n her o f f i c e were three o r four very f i n e Chinese
paintings and, i f y o u ' l l believe it, on the desk of t h i s
professor a l i t t l e thing which seemed t o be obviously a
Harnett, j u s t s i t t i n g r i g h t there on h i s desk. I said,
"Where i n the world d i d you, .lW
nOh,w she said, the University, I borrowed it.''
@
[~ a u g h t e r ]
1 immediately found out where these things came from
and I g o t hold of whoever had charge of i t at t h a t time
-- 1 think i t was Karl Kasten -- and picked out a n i c e
Pepper: 	 l o t of pictures which f brought over here t o the philosophy
department. Q u i t e a number of them were given by Bender.
Since then we've had a very f i n e g i f t of Chinese paintings,
most of which went t o the Law School; and I g o t t h a t
painting of the Seven Wise Men t h a t ' s in the philosophy
department office. Oh, I f i l l e d the department, There's
an Enneking there of mine, a r a t h e r n i c e impressionistic
picture. (He was a man with a b i g l o c a l reputation around
Boston when m
y f a t h e r w a s a p a i n t e r there; he had about
the same reputation m
y f a t h e r had.) I put t h a t up i n
there. I t is on an informal personal loan, but I had no
place i n my house f o r it, and the department men seem t o
enjoy i t ,
And 1 f i x z d up t h i s room here as an emeritus room
[4413 Dwinelle all], Ooh, I g o t two n i c e Swedish c h a i r s ,
which created a University problem, I ordered them out
of the Howison Fund, our own departmental fund, and the
purchasing department head, o r whoever, went down t o the
shop and looked at these and came back and phoned up and
s a i d , "Why, those chairs, nobody orders those except most
worthy men, such as the president,"
M
r
s
. Perry, our s e c r e t a r y here, a p e s t i n many ways,
w a s very good a t t h i s s o r t of thing, and she s a i d , #Well,
we're a most worthy department."
I g o t them, but I had t o do q u i t e a l i t t l e znm5uvering
f o r then. They had no business t o touch the Howison Fund;
i t was ours, and the c h a i r s were for the emeriti, Oh, 1
was making q u i t e a l i t t l e n e s t f o r myself and Adams and
Loevenberg and other emeriti, I g o t those two nice c h a i r s
pepper: and I g o t these f i n e pictures. The room r e a l l y was charming.
But j u s t toward t h e end of my chairmanship w
e were adding
men t o the department and needing more rooms, and 1 w a s
supposed t o help out m
y next chairman, who was to be Ed
Strong. I s a i d t h a t w e would need three new o f f i c e s t o
take care of coming needs.
J u s t t o make sure of it, I spoke t o the head of the
ECC committee, C.W. Brown, and a l s o J.W. Hutchison, who
was, a t t h a t time head of Grounds and Buildings, both good
f r i e n d s of mine. Those two men were sitting together one
day a t the Faculty Club and I thought t h i s was a good
opportunity t3 speak. So I said, nI hope you noticed t h a t
w e need three o f f i c e s m W
ttWe noticed your a p p l i c a t i ~ n , ~
C.W. s a i d , "but you've
g o t a whole vacant o f f i c e there."
I s a i d , "Gosh, t h i s i s a l l arranged f o r ; the chancellor,
Kerr, has observed the importznce of t h i s s o r t of o f f i c e
f o r emeriti, and we're going t o be generous with i t and
gllow emeritus men not only from the philosophy depart-
ment but from other neighboring departments i n there."
"Well," he said, "we've noticed i t o w
Those two were very good friends of mine and I i m e -
d i a t e l y knew t h a t t h i s o f f i c e w a s i n danger. So I went
s t r a i g h t t o Ed Strong -- i t was toward t h e end of the
s e n e s t e r -- and said, "You go r i g h t i n t h a t office, imme-
diately, and put i t down as the department chairman*^
office, o r we may l o s e i t o wH e did, and now the whole
thing is j u s t an office. The c h a i r s a r e there, but 1%
l o s t its f l a v o r and the p i c t u r e s a r e gone. It's j u s t
Pepper: 	 l i k e t h i s office we are i n [4411 h i n e l l e all] except
that it's more ample. But I think they are making an
attempt -- they've got Ed Strong's name up, as well as
mine (and l a t e r Loewenberg's) outside t h i s office, and
I think that makes t h i s pretty secure as a place where
emeriti and others can be, at l e a s t for a time.
Riess: 	 What has the A r t s club been doing since its i n i t i a t i o n
by you and Worth Ryder back i n 19341
Pepper: 	 I t has continued on as a sooial club to the present time,
and shows no signs of weakness -- oh, there is a l i t t l e
d i f f i c u l t y i n getting papers, and f o r a long time there
has been difficulty i n getting done what w
e call the
" C h r o n i ~ l e , ~
80 that now people have t o be recruited f o r
the "Chronicle." The way we do that i s have the "Chron-
icle" writer of one meeting appoint the *Chroniclew
writer f o r the next one. [ Laughter] This i s always a
very sad business. [laughter] But otherwise it's going
fine. 

Riess: 	 Scholarly papers, these are?
Pepper t 	 Yes, mostly scholarly. But i f there's a very bright
essay coning, up it would be acceptable. And the artists
bring pictures, the musicians play music. There's no
t e l l i n g what you'll get, except it's bound to be lively.
Riess: 	 Is the program planned yearly?
Pepper : 	
W
e generally assign our meetings f o r the term, sometimes
f o r the year. The host is easy t o get: t h a t ' s interesting,
there's a competition to be host and we sometimes have t o
see to i t t h a t people don't t r y t o be host too of ten.
Riess: 	 Is i t still a sraall group?
Pepper: 	
Oh, yes, we keep t t a t about 20 active people. Once i n
Pepper: 	 the A r t s Club you a r e permanently i n the Arts Club unless
you g e t out yourself. And we've had one o r two people say
they didn't want t o join even when we'd voted them i n , but
t h a t ' s very extraordinary. And we've had two o r three who
s t a r t e d and dropped. But there are q u i t e a number who from
age o r having gone away o r something o r other a r e good
bona f i d e members, but who don't come.
Riess: 	 Is i t s t i l l on and off campus people?
Pepper: 	 Yes, mostly on. The membership probably now runs i n t o 30
o r 35, but the meetings run from 15 t o 20, which is j u s t
what we'd headed f o r , meetings of about 20. And we meet
i n a p r i v a t e Faculty Club dining room.' W
e don't move
from the table; i f you move from the t a b l e it's disastrous;
you j u s t s t a y there. W
e always have plenty of wine, and
we start with c o c k t a i l s at the home of the host, s o we
a r r i v e i n very good form. The funny thing is that when
the paper comes on i t g e t s attention. But I don't think
there i s much i n h i b i t i o n on criticism. [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
It's
fun.
Ed Strong used t o run i t whenever I didn't. When I
r e t i r e d I was t o be away f o r a year and I thought probably
a good deal away, so I thought I ' d j u s t r e t i r e from the
o f f i c i a l -- oh, there was no r e a l o f f i c i a l , but I was
the one who had t o look out f o r the meetings.
Riess: Yes, Father Stephen.
Pepper: [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
How did you know that?
Riess: From a s t o r y about you i n the C a l Monthly.
Pepper: Oh, yes, t h a t ' s right.
Then Ed Strong w a s made chancellor, and t h a t finished
that. ' So now Walter Horn is the u n o f f i c i a l o f f i c i a l .
Assistant Dean
Pepper: 	 Now, I wanted to raention t h a t i n 1939 I was appointed
a s s i s t a n t dean of the College of Letters and Science under
Hildebrand, who had j u s t been made dean and wanted t o
remain a professor and teach h i s courses and s o invented
the system of four a s s i s t a n t deans -- Pan Jenkins and
zoology Eakin, and I think the other one was Leslie
Simpson. W
e hdd the a r e a divided up among us, and mine
w a s a considerable portion of the humanities, and the art.
And the great thing that t h i s d i d -- people wondered how I
could handle a l l t h i s , being an a s s i s t a n t dean and the
chairman of a wild department -- but the point was t h a t I
could make departmental recommendations f o r program changes
and p o l i c i e s and reoomend them t o the College of L e t t e r s
and Science and then go up and accept them! [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
O f course Hildebrand knew a l l about i t and i f i t were any-
thing r e a l l y controversial i t would be taken up i n the
'
deans meetings which happened once a week. But Z never
had t o argue with anybody very much about these policy
changes!
Riess: How many years were you an a s s i s t a n t dean?
Pepper: I was j u s t looking that up. It was 1939 t o 1949. I held
i t a l l through Hildebrand's adrninistration and a year,
1946-47, under G.P. Adams.
Riess: Hildebrand always had the q u a r t e t o r more of a s s i s t a n t s ?
Pepper: Yes, and that was continued by Davis, and Ed Strong w a s
taken i n a t t h a t time [1947-481. That's when he began
h i s o f f i c i a l --
Riess: 	 That brings up a question I wanted to ask. Reading b r i e f
biographies of Chancellor Strong, i t seemed t o m
e t h a t
you followed a similar course i n the University and t h a t
you might well have become dean of Letters and Science o r
more, if you had taken perhaps one more step.
Pepper: 	 Many people have s a i d that, and i t might have been true.
The time I took the s t e p was when I turned down the f d e r
from the committee t h a t was recommending the new dean of
Letters and Science t o the president, j u s t before S a i l o r
Davis was appointed. I had hesitated i n saying i t , but
since it's been brought up...
I knew what I w a s doing, and I didn't want to be a
high administrator. The amount of administration and
p o l i t i c a l involvement was j u s t about as much as I could
carry and do my teaching and research. I guess I managed
my l i f e i n a very well-balanced way because I look back on
t h a t s i d e of i t and I wouldn't want to change a thing. I
had a l l the influence t h a t I think was needed for the kind
of things t h a t I thought should be done. And I didn't g e t
t
involved in, well, the kind of necessary absorption that
being an o f f i c i a l dean would h ~ v e
demanded. But, vhether
I would ever have been a chancellor o r not -- 1 j u s t
didn't want it. So I guess the answer is 1 never would
have been. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Riess: 	 Then there was another "might have been.'' W
e spoke a long
time ago about the o f f e r t o go t o Harvard t h a t you turned
down, about 1938.
Pepper: Yes, I had a whole s e r i e s of o f f e r s around t h a t time. My
reputation was beginning to g e t known. Then I got t h i s
Harvard offer. Five years e a r l i e r I would have gone, and
. i t was rather exceptional even a t t h a t time t o turn down
Pepper: 	 Harvard. The only precedent here was Edward Tolman. O f
course, t h a t was a good precedent f o r me, because we were
very close friends.
Riess: 	 Your decision represented a f a i t h i n t h i s university?
Pepper: 	 Yes, a t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r juncture the b e s t department i n
the country i n my judgment w a s the University of C a l i f o r n i a
department of philosophy. That's one reason Harvard wanted
me. That was the period of the height of our department.
I think we stand well t o be there again most any time.
The last responsible reckoning I heard was t h a t we vere
number seven. This was a c o n f i d e n t i a l survey made by the
University of Pennsylvania when they were making a b i g
reorganization. It was s e n t t o the high administrative
o f f i c e r s here, and I w a s i n a p o s i t i o n t o s e e i t . They
wanted to find out how things stood i n the country. They
had a b i g sum from somewhere t o do t h i s s o r t of thing.
There were two previous r a t h e r responsible surveys made
on the same p r i n c i p l e of writing t o the departments of
the chief u n i v e r s i t i e s a l l over the countries and asking
them, barring t h e i r own, how they would r a t e the first
f i v e departments. When you gather those statistics
together you g e t a p r e t t y informative thing. But i n
t h a t former record we were r i g h t on a l e v e l with Harvard
and one other -- it may have been Columbia a t that time.
And then, l a t e r than t h a t , as I say, I f e l t t h i s was
-
the department i n the country; why should I move? 

Riess: Did you g e t back East often? 

Pepper: Well, when my family was there. When my f a t h e r died I 

had s o r t of over-sight of my mother's finances, s o I used
i
Pepper: 	 t o go East twice a year, and t h a t was regular u n t i l m
y
mother died two years ago. I kept i n touch with the
Harvard people a l o t ,
That w a s n o t an easy decision, even at that time.
There were a good many considerations. M
y family vanted
me t o go, sure. None of our r e l s t i v e s i n the East could
understand i t at all. nHow could anybody turn down Harvard,
p a r t i c u l a r l y having oome from New England? Your family is
i n Hew England, It's your own university. Furthermore,
they need you." I could say t h a t of course California
a l s o needed me, but t h a t wasn't the point! [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
This was m
y alma mater and the s t a t u s of the department
needed t h i s e x t r a man, and so on. Oh, yes, I had plenty
of pressure.
Riess: 	 How about your w i f e ?
Pepper: 	 She has always, i n decisions of t h a t kind, not s a i d a word,
I t w a s m
y decision, and she would follow her husband, As
a matter of f a c t she s a i d later she had hoped I would
,decide t o stay,' Well, we were deeply entrenched here
-- friends, house, beautiful l i v i n g conditions. Gosh, I
couldn't think of anything b e t t e r . As a matter of f a c t ,
we have been much happier staying here than w
e would have
been t o go back.
PERSONAL 	LIFE
I c e Skating
Riess: 	 Last week a f t e r our interview you were saying t h a t your
wife was going East t o a t t e n d the b i r t h of a grandchild,
and t h a t she was experienced i n t h i s role. What were you
r e f e r r i n g to?
Pepper: W
e were i n New York f o r a while on the way home from
Europe j u s t a t t h e outbreak of World W
a
r 11, and there
was a g r e a t need of nurses, s o she went t o one of the
h o s p i t a l s there t h a t was designated as a t r a i n i n g ground
f o r p r a c t i c a l nurses and' offered h e r s e l f f o r training.
The g i r l at t h e desk asked her where she came from, and
so on, and s h e s a i d she came from California.
wOh,n s a i d t h e g i r l , "you don't think i n New York we
, a r e going t o t r a i n California people!*
And E l l e n s a i d , "1 w a s under the impression t h a t t h i s
war was a n a t i o n a l emergency. " [haughtier]
So, the g i r l shut up. E l l e n g o t a good many weeks*
t r a i n i n g there. She helped at operations and did a l l
s o r t s of things around the edges t h a t a woman who didn't
have actual nurse's t r a i n i n g could do.
Then we came back out here. She's always been inter-
-ested i n babies, and she asked a t t h e h o s p i t a l here what
she could do and saw t h a t there was a baby c l i n i c . There
again she ran i n t o some kind of a r u l e t h a t only trained
Pepper: 	 nurses, o r something, could be i n there. But a lady i n
charge who was an acquaintance of h e r s and who was very
broad-minded about these things, an a u t h o r i t y on the
problem, said, "Why, we need these people very, very badly.
We'll put you r i g h t i n t o the baby-care p a r t of the hospitalm
-- where the new-born babies a r e put i n the room behind the
b i g plate-glass window, the nursery.
So she took t h i s t r a i n i n g and i n the meantime w a s
a c t u a l l y helping on a l o t of babies. There must have been
a regular course, o r st least a period where she was doing
t h i s . The next thing was she applied t o the regular nurse's
employment agency and was t o l d by the lady i n charge t h a t
n o t being a regular nurse she couldn't r e a l l y expect employ-
ment. E l l e n replied, "1 understand there is a good deal
of demand f o r t h i s , and I ' m j u s t t e l l i n g you I ' m available."
She was c a l l e d i n within a matter of days, and from then
on u n t i l the boys came back she w a s nursing. I wouldn't
l e t her nurse continuously; I i n s i s t e d on her having two
weeks out between cases. The normal mode of procedure
f o r her w a s t o nurse f o r four weeks and then she'd be home
f o r two weeks. I t wasn't t h a t she was necessary a t the
houses a l l the time, but generally she was. She'd come
back and g e t me dinner very often, though.
Her g r e a t r e l a x a t i o n was skating. She's a very good
s k a t e r and loves i t with a deep infatuation, and nothing
r e s t e d her s o much a t t h a t t i m e as a couple of hour's
s k a t i n g a f t e r a day's nursing. Ye belonged t o t h e S t .
Mori t z Skating Club. I kind of tagged along with her. She
would go, oh, three times a week, and I couldn't afford
Pepper: 	 time more than once a week; and she l i k e d i t i n a way t h a t
I didn't.
Riess: Is t h a t i n Berkeley?
Pepper: Yes. It began i n Oakland, and then when the r i n k was
s t a r t e d here i t s h i f t e d over here, and we went t o t h a t
regularly, I mean I went once a week and she three times,
f o r many years, During t h i s nursing period t h a t is the
way she relaxed laughing], with t h i s tremendous, vigorous
exercise, dancing -- i t was r e a l l y a l l dancing, they would
begin with f i g u r e s f o r the first h a l f hour, o r so, You'd
go out and make a patch.
Riess: 	 "Hake a patch?"
Pepper: Yes. That i s t o say, you'd nake your double c i r c l e , your
f i g u r e e i g h t , t h a t gave you t h a t patch, and then you'd go
forward and you'd go backwards, and you'd do a l l s o r t s of
things. She was very good at t h a t , doing t r i c k things
and a l l that. On the backward e i g h t I w a s never q u i t e
secure on m
y l e f t foot going back; r i g h t f o o t I could do
n i c e l y but my l e f t foot going back was always a nuisance.
I skated the main dances, the waltz and t h e fourteen-step
-- t h a t ' s kind of l i k e waltz and two-step i n regular
dancing. And there were three or four other dances I
could do, She could do everything. It was p e r f e c t l y
amazing. The speed of these things! I f you made a s l i p ,
both of you'd be down. [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
Riess: 	 Were people doing i t f o r relaxation generally, o r were
some t r a i n i n g t o be professionals?
Pepper: 	 Oh, t h e r e were competing amateurs, and they had a very
good record of competing amateurs. The chief professional
there was Maribel Vinson Owen, a champion American s k a t e r
Pepper: 	 of the Olympics who w a s k i l l e d r e c e n t l y i n an a i r p l a n e
crash going t o t h e Olympics, with h e r two children, a l s o
g r e a t skaters,and n a t i o n a l champions heading f o r Olympic
championships,
Riess: 	 Then t h i s was r e a l l y a top-notch place.
Pepper: 	 Oh, i t w a s , and Maribel w a s simply wonderful. I took from
her and she l i k e d me. Though I wssnqt a good s k a t e r , I
was p e r f e c t l y secure with t h i s l i t t l e s l i m person, however.
She would be a b l e t o sense where I w a s a l i t t l e off-balance
and c o r r e c t i t with a touch. The r e s u l t of i t was I had
no f e a r s with her and w
e would dance these r a t h e r complex
dances I wouldn't dare dance with anybody else, and at
top speed. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So, I g o t something of the f e e l i n g
t h a t my wife did from t h i s ,
Riess: 	 I t sounds l i k e g r e a t fun, Do you still do it?
Pepper: 	 Oh, no, the thing t h a t took me out was, as m
y wife says,
t h a t I broke her wrist. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] Ue were t a l k i n g with
each o t h e r and J u s t s t r o l l i n g , s o t o speak, around the
rink, and I must have h i t a h a i r p i n o r something o r o t h e r
i n the ice. A t any r a t e , I took a s p i l l . Well, I took
. .
s p i l l s s o o f t e n I was an expert a t taking s p i l l s , and I
curled up l i k e a bear, but as I f e l l one of m
y f e e t went
out and tripped h e r up and she put h e r arm out -- something
I vould never do -- and broke h e r w r i s t very badly. I saw
i t was possible I oould break mine and I couldn't a f f o r d
t o have t h a t happen t o me, I stopped. I was g e t t i n g
older, anyway,
Then, about two y e a r s l a t e r -- If you're going very
f a s t and you f a l l you're a l l r i g h t , because you take an
angular s p i l l and i t doesn't h u r t you nearly as much, but
Pepper: 	 Ellen was doing a very d i f f i c u l t turn maneuver, standing
still, and i n the midst of i t she changed her mind, which
is very dangerous, and she s p i l l e d and broke her hip.
That was something. She was well i n h e r s i x t i e s and the
whole family came down on h e r and s a i d , "Nothing doing."
I think she w a s r e a l l y glad t o have u s do t h i s , but she
complained t e r r i b l y about i t and still does. "This
dominating family who won't l e t her do what she most wants
t o do i n the whole world!" [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So t h a t stopped
her.
Riess: 	 Somehow I'm surprised t h a t ice-skating was s o popular.
Were there many e a s t e r n "pond-skaters" among t h e members?
Pepper: 	 I was r a t h e r scornful of figure-skating when I came i n t o
i t , and i f i t hadn't been t h a t otherwise I vouldn't have
had m
y wife's a s s o c i a t i o n f o r three n i g h t s a week, why I
don't think I would ever have joined up. Oh, I used t o
skate j u s t l i k e the kids, on the r i v e r , and we vould
play s c r a p hockey and t h a t s o r t of thing, so I was a good,
bumbling s t r a i g h t skater. But t h i s business was t o t a l l y
d i f f e r e n t . Once you g e t i n t o i t i t becomes p e r f e c t l y
fascinating. You wouldn*t think going round and round
and round would be anything. But i t i s n ' t j u s t going
round and round. You do these dances and you're improving
yourself on the figure e i g h t s and s o f o r t h and since t h i s
i s i n t e n s i v e skating i t g e t s very, very fascinating.
And the children's sessions were huge. Once a year
they gave -- they still do i t -- a pageant i n which most
of the mernbkrs were brought i n i n one way ar another; i f
they were any good at a l l they g o t a p a r t i n t h i s pageant.
Pepper: I think they would perform on three afternoons and a couple
of evenings. The skating arena was packed. There would
always be a couple of outside professionals t o give the
performance a a e r t a i n spice, and the professionals who
taught there would have parts. So there was some r e a l
professional skating going on. The two Owens ( k r i b e l
and her husband) were very f i n e skaters and they would
put on a beautiful perfornance always.
But the one thing t h i s pageant had t h a t no professional
performance would ever have was the first part, involving
the children. A t one point always some kind of a scene
would a r i s e i n which these uhildren would pour in, and
r e a l l y i t was a sight t o see a l l these l i t t l e things,
l i t t l e toddlers -- i t was fascinating.
M
r
s
. Pepper was always i n some important part i n these.
She w a s always i n the waltz -- they'd rig up a waltz scene
somehow, it's beautiful on skates -- and she w a s always
doing sonething i n the children's thin8s too. One t i n e
she w
a
s a s t r i p tease. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
She had on a l o t of
t
super clothes i n the s t y l e of f i f t y years ago and pretty
soon you began to notice that here w a s a women undressing!
Then you'd look more and more and these dresses came off
till f i n a l l y she g o t down to an old-fashioned bathing
s u i t , and then stopped. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
One of my biggest t h r i l l s w a s being Culliver f o r the
children i n one of these perfornlances. They d i d i t by
having three actors, a t a l l man and a child and an
ordinary-sized man, so you went through the s e r i e s of
Gulliver's travels. Well, the tall man was a quite good
362. 

Pepper: skater and he must have been six-foot-five, r e a l l y tall,
but he got appendicitis within three o r four days of the
performance. P r a c t i c a l l y everybody e l s e i n the club w a s
involved in that pageant, so they came t o me, because I
was f a i r l y tall, and asked m
e if 1 would do it. I said,
"Sure, but don't expect any fireworks. a
"You don't have t o do any fireworks, j u s t be the t a l l
Gulliver.
So I appeared f o r the next rehearsal and overheard
one of the children remark, "He's not so t a l l as so-and-
so, but he's thicker.' [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
That year, as usual, there were a couple of profes-
sionals there, a man and a woman. They made a team, but
were no relation. Being i n a special p a r t as I was I was
assigned the special performer's room, which the profes-
sional man used also. M
y p a r t cane early i n the pageant
and he came on i n the second section. So when I came off
from m
y performance I ' d always find him there, p a r t i a l l y
dressed f o r his, which was coming on soon. And he assumed
t h a t i f I was i n there with him t h a t I w a s one of t h e
great s k a t e r s of the St. Moritz, which is famous f o r its
champions. I never disillusioned him at a l l ; he never
saw me, s o i t was possible.
nWell,w and "how is the i c e today?" and I would t e l l
him.
wAnd how is the audience?"
nThe audience is receptive today. It's not q u i t e as
good as i t was yesterday, but maybe you'll be able to
bring them out.#
1
Pepper: And one of these days I came off and said, wThere's a
patch of water you have t o watch out f o r about two-thirds
of the way down the rink, not q u i t e frozen.*
How, I always used t o go out and watch them; I wouldn' t
always s t a y through the whole of i t , but I would go out
and see them because i t w a s a beautiful s i g h t t o see.
This pair, a t the end of t h e i r a c t , came down holding
hands i n a long swoop backwards nearly the vhole length
of the rink, and then. a f t e r a courtesy and bow floated
out through the ourtain. This day i t was r i g h t i n the
wet patch t h a t the bow and courtesy would happen. And by
golly, the g i r l slipped and went down; of course they
recover, those professionals, very quickly, but neverthe-
less she slipped i n it. So the next day when I saw him I
said, "That wet patch bothered you, didn't it? The g i r l
slipped,"
"You know," he said, #if I hadn't l e t her go, I'd have
slipped. " [~augh
ter]
That was an illumination to me. The chivalry of those
professionalsf He wasn't going t o l e t himself be jeopard-
ized; she could go. I n other words, I g o t the impression
he oould have saved her but he probably would have gone
down.
Wcll, t h a t ' s the St. Moritz. 

Riess: What other i n t e r e s t s do you and Mrs. Pepper have? Are 
 +
you patrons of the opera, f o r instance?
Pepper: 	 We've been traveling s o much lately. A s soon as I became
emeritus I thought t h a t year I ' d b e t t e r be out of the way
s o t h a t I wouldn' t be i n t e r f e r i n g with the new chairman,
Pepper: 	 f o r one thing, and to get c l e a r of the tremendous amount of
University oommittee and administrative s o r t of responsi-
b i l i ties t h a t I was involved in, I knew if 1 stayed here
they'd think I knew more about i t than anybo.3~
e l s e , which
i n a way I did. There were o t h e r people t h a t could know
just as much i f I g o t out, s o I g o t o u t and, s o t o speak,
severed these r e l a t i o n s .
Riess: 	 Have you been involved i n San Francisco c u l t u r a l things?
Pepper: 	 Not i n any p a r t i c u l ~ rway, no. W
e support the symphony
with a small amount, and the same with the art a s s o c i a t i o n
hdving t o do with the art school, and Mrs. Morley's museum
( h e r s back i n the old days). But we haven't g o t t e n mixed
up i n San Francisco a f f a i r s very much. In f a c t , I was too
much involved here and my wife's skating w e s her g r e a t
o u t s i d e thing u n t i l she stopped, which was n o t very long
ago. I t was i n 1955, I think, t h a t she broke h e r hip.
W
e went on s a b b a t i c a l i n 1956-57, and then she was n o t
r e a l l y over h e r h i p yet; she was limping. You'd never
know she'd had a broken h i p now. I n the old days people
used t o d i e of it, because they'd get pneumonia, but now
they know how to handle that.
R iess: 	 Were you s k i e r s ?
Pepper: 	 Oh, no. W
e skied when we were k i d s on the kinds of s k i s
t h a t you j u s t stuck your f o o t i n and s l i d downhill. And
we skied cross-country, t h a t s o r t of thing. They were
big, heavy Swedish skis t h a t they used then. J u s t kind
of b u b l i n g , b u t i t vas fun. W
e never took i t up o u t here.
Hiess: 	 There w a s a big group t h a t skied -- Hildebrand, and so on.
Pepper: 	 Oh, yes, dildebrand and h i s sons were expert. In fact,
I
I Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper:
Riess:
Pepper :
among the faculty people vho enjoyed t h a t s o r t of thing 

they vere e i t h e r s k i e r s or skaters, o r a l i t t l e of both, 

They don't combine very well, tnough. 

There were other skating faculty people? 

Oh, yes, t h i s vas very large. I n fact, t h i s was a f a c u l t y 

group t h a t we were with, though w
e also belonged t o the 

St. Moritz. W
e belonged t o both groups. I guess I was 

going down twice a week then as a matter of fact. 

Woul4 the faculty group take p a r t i n the pageants? 

No, except t h a t there was a good deal of overlapping; the 

best of the faculty belonged a l s o t o the S t , Moritz. 

Skiing and skating don't combine because i n skiing
the stance i s t o bend forward a b i t ; i n skating you've
got to be perfectly e r e c t or you're i n trouble. Your
balance depends upon erectness there, There a r e things
f o r balance i n skating t h a t are j u s t absolutely wrong f o r
walking and running and skiing. You do j u s t the opposite
f o r some of these f a i r l y tricky things. Leaning way back
is e s s e n t i a l f o r proper balance f o r some of the back-eight
kind of thlngs, It's awfully scary, But i f you're not
e r e c t and leaning well back you're gone.
And, a f t e r all, if you participated i n both you'd be
giving over your e n t i r e t i m e t o the a c t i v e l i f e !
[Laughing] That's r i g h t , you would. But Maribel Owen was
a l s o a p r e t t y good s k i e r , a r e a l athlete. A perfectly
marvelous skater, my, my! And her husband had the most
graceful leap i n skating of any uan I ever knew. It was
like the Mijinsky leap, which by the way I saw. W
e s a w
I i j i n s k y and Pavlova when we vere young i n Boston. That
Stephen and Ellen Pepper a t the
home of Ray Boynton, 1946.
Pepper: Nijinsky leap was r e a l l y , r e a l l y -- he seemed to j u s t f l o a t .
And Owen could do t h a t same thing. He'd r i s e up, you see,
and then somehow he'd f l o a t . Strangely enough, he was more
graceful than h i s wife. He was not, however, good enough
on the precise figure skating ever t o r a t e the way she did.
One of the remarkable things i s that he couldrl't turn his
f e e t completely out. f couldn't e i t h e r , but I think maybe
i t was because I was too l a t e learning. Host people can
turn t h e i r f e e t so that they can put one foot one way and
one the other i n a horizontal line. You can t r a i n yourself
t o do that. But something was the matter with Guy Owen's
ankles and he couldn't.
Riess: And t h a t ' s r e a l l y necessary?
Pepper: Well, that would be r e a l l y serious. You never would know
it, he was s o s k i l f u l i n covering i t up i n a l l of the
f e a t s t h a t he did. Some of those people eould even do i t
i n reverse; they'd lean over backwards and make the c i r c l e
with one f o o t one way and one foot the other, which means
that they're more than stretched out. And they do that
s o e a s i l y it's annoying.
Family
Pepper: Going bzck to Ellen's nursing. She had many i n t e r e s t i n g
experiences, a l l the way from tending to a r e t i r e d admiral's
daughter -- they brought her i n t o the house, and my, t h a t
was a complicated family set-up -- t o twins with an
impoverished sculptor whose mother-in-law was i n the house.
I n a l o t of these cases the biggest job f o r the nurse
I
Pepper: r e a l l y was handling the family s i t u a t i o n . I think gihe did
a l o t of good there,
I n the admiral's case she g o t the g i r l (the raother of
the baby) out of the grandparents' house. The chief
offender there was .an older nurse, a family r e t a i n e r who
had taken care of the daughter and f e l t t h a t she knew a l l
about children, and she didn't. It g o t the mother a l l
upset. Finally, Ellen hinted t o the husband t h a t i t would
be a good i d e a t o go back to t h e i r own house. They did,
and i t was a g r e a t r e l i e f . There was also an o l d e r boy
there, and an older c h i l d you always have t o watch o u t f o r
with a new c h i l d cornins in. Everything was going wrong
about thzt. So i t was a mess.
The s c u l p t o r fellow and his family had very cramped
quarters, and the old nother-ifi-law was r e a l l y sorrzething.
E l l e n would always do everything she could t o g e t a new
mother t o nurse, but i n t h i s case i t didn't work, and s o
she had l o t s of b o t t l e s t o prepare. She could g e t together
' enough b o t t l e s f o r the whole day, and y e t she'd come back
and she'd f i n d one o r two, o r none. "What happened?"
Well, the baby had taken from the b o t t l e and n a t u r a l l y
if a b o t t l e was once used you had t o dispose of i t , s a i d
the mother-in-lav. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
That's the kind of t h i n g
E l l e n ran I n t o over and over again.
Riess: She sounds l i k e she w a s very e f f e c t i v e .
Pepper: She w a s wonderful, which my daughter knew, And t h i s w i l l
probably be the last baby t h a t she brings, s o t o speak,
through in the vorld.
Riess: Which daughter i s t h i s ?
I
, Pepper: This is m
y younger daughter, Francis,
: Riess: And it's her f i r s t child?
Pepper: Yes.
Biesa: Where does she live?
: Pepper: I n Hew York. Her husband is i n the IBM.
Did I t e l l you t h a t Ellen "sot her first baby a t a
cocktail party" as she says? When she f i r s t made herself
available f o r nursing, t h i s was, She was at a cocktail
party i n the neighborhood and one of our very good friends
was there -- her husband is now judge, and he w a s our
lawyer f o r a good many years, Lyle Cook -- and Ellen w a s
saying t h a t she was going i n t o t h i s and the g i r l , whose
baby was not far off, said, wYoutve got your first job.*
Ellen said, "Nov, look, v e t r e a t a cocktail party.
You j u s t w a i t and think i t aver. *
So the first thing the next morning Mrs. Cook called
perfectly sober and I want you."
[ ~ a u g h t e r ] That was her first baby. 

Riess: Which was your daughter t h a t studied drama? 

Pepper: Prancie was the one. She was a Theta, and a very bad 

Theta because she preferred drama t o the Theta r i t u a l s .
Ithought the g i r l s were r e a l l y awfully good with her because
she was 8 rebel there. But I think they a l s o f e l t t h a t i t
l e d t o ~ o m e
campus fame f o r them to have a g i r l who was so
good i n drama.
She became -- and I think even a devoted f a t h e r can
say t h i s -- the best of the actresses on campus before
s h e got through. She acted Cleapatra, acted Gonoril.
Those were two of her big p a r t s and she d i d beautiful jobs
'
1
'
.
said,
and
up
I Pepper: i n them. And i n her terminal play they say she was j u s t
simply wonderful. W
e were across the continent, j u s t coming
back from Europe. E l l e n wanted t o come on t o s e e it but
i t was an awfully expensive business and w
e had family t o
see. So I'm afraid I r e s i s t e d t h a t , but everybody s a i d
t h a t i t w a s a g r e a t performance. I t was the last one i n
which she put out a l l her e f f o r t . Sheregards t h i s depart-
ment here, a t t h a t time, under Harris, as absolutely tops,
She had been t o North Carolina and was r a t h e r disappointed
i n what they had; she acted there, but i t was not the same
as here.
Then she went up t o the University of Washington and
g o t an M.A.in dramatic arts, But she decided she would n o t
go i n t o i t professionally, f o r which I was very glad,
because t h a t ' s devilish. Several of her f r i e n d s did.
While she w a s East she had a share i n a room t h a t two of
these t h e a t e r girls had (forraer UC pals), and one of them
d i d q u i t e a l i t t l e professional work of a kind, not that
,she got any important part on Broadway, but she had impor-
t a n t p a r t s i n a number of the summer t h e a t e r s l i k e the
Lakeview, i n Skowhegan, and Stockbridge. She d i d a l o t
of good work there and she a o t enough t o l i v e on. Francie
paid I think $5 a month f o r an apartment they had down
on t h e East Side. It was not much of an apartment, a
walk-up, about three o r four f l i g h t s , and they had t o
put i t i n some shape, but i t w a s q u i t e a t t r a c t i v e . The
l i f e of a professional, though, you could see i t r i g h t
there, was p r e t t y tough and discouraging a l l the time.
It's one of those things where you've g o t t o be j u s t
awfully good o r you're not r e a l l y doing very much at all,
Riess: W
a
s Frances acting when s h e was i n New York?
Pepper: No. After she g o t her M.A. she decided t o take s e c r e t a r i a l
training, and I guess even while she was doing her M.A.
she was earning some l i t t l e e x t r a money by working i n a
bank up there i n Washington. There she got another kind
of experience: her best f r i e n d at t h a t time, or one of
her best friends, was a l i t t l e typical bank-clerk g i r l
who gave Francie insight i n t o a type of l i f e t h a t ' s q u i t e
different from ours.
Then she worked f o r the engineers i n the engineering
school, She was top secretary there f o r a while a t the
University of Washington i n the school of engineering,
They hated to have her go, but she decided she wanted to
go East, and she became secretary t o the secretary t o
the president at Princeton, which was q u i t e a responsible
job, But she didn't l i k e i t because she didn't s e e any-
body, They were up i n a s o l i t a r y tower and she w a s about
the only secretary there and a l l t h a t she would see was
when she went out t o do errands f o r him. Soshe gave t h a t
up. And because she oould hardly hope to g e t a lower
position there, she went t o Yale where she became a
secretary f o r the graduate school i n economics at Yale,
Now, at Yale they go i n t o dramatics very strong, not
only the dramatics school but the dramatic society there.
And girls a r e i n demand, so she very quickly g o t attached
to that, I n f a c t , that whole l i f e set-up there was very
much more to her liking, seeing l o t s of people and being
a b l e to do amateur acting. She s a i d she never threw
herself i n t o a p a r t there the way she used t o down here,
Pepper: but she was very much appreciated, and s h e m e t the boy
who became her husband. She was the heroine and he the
hero of CL play, and i t proceeded from there.
Riess: What is h i s name?
Pepper: H i s name is Theodore Tarson. H e was g e t t i n g h i s degree
i n American Studies there. He had been connected with
IBM before he went i n t o t h a t and was a trained programmer,
and he would go o f f f o r about three days working f o r IBM
and earn enough t o support him f o r the month. [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
So when he f i n a l l y g o t h i s degree -- and here they had a
baby coming -- t h e question was should he take an assist-
a n t professorship a t some college, o r go back t o IBM?
And he decided t o go back t o IBM. I think he did well,
because he's one of these very brilliant, meticulous boys.
I c a n ' t imagine him having any sympathy f o r a wC1l student,
hardly f o r a nB.n You'd have t o be an "APn you knov. So
I don 't think he would have been a very good teacher,
anyway. But h i s Ph. D. degree is going t o serve him.
Somehow o r other any kind of a high degree l i k e t h a t
valuable i n IBM. He hopes t o g e t i n t o some research
i s
job
eventually there, but j u s t a t present h e ' s taking a
r e t r a i n i n g course i n a l l the new, complex kinds of pro-
gramming they do. They'll be i n l e v York f o r a couple
of years anyway. I would love i t i f he were s t a t i o n e d
o u t here in San Jose.
Riess: Your other daughter, Elizabeth?
Pepper: M
y other daughter was also a Theta. She stayed here f o r
two years and f e l l i n love with Dick Dyer-Bennett. They
were married and her first two girls were t h e i r children.
Pepper: H i s training, I think, owes a good deal t o h e r
persistence because he's a p r e t t y easy-going kind of boy,
very bright and charming,
Riess: 	 He was a student here uhen she, r e t him?
Pepper: 	 Yes, She knew that t h e i r l i v i n g was going t o depend on
this, and 'she saw t o i t t h a t he had h i s lessons -- with
a very good teacher, who w a s a student of one of the
g r e a t folk-singers of Sweden, a prominent singing teacher
of t h i s n a t u r a l type, not the operatic type, t h a t would
not do, you see -- and Bebe, i n s p i t e of having these
young children -- i n f a c t , I think she would take the
baby -- would go there with him t o see t h a t he was there,
so t o speak, and as a r e s u l t of It she w
a
s g e t t i n g lessons
too. She became a very good folk-singer herself, and she
performs occasionally. She has a beautiful, appealing
voice.
However, he was a very poor father. And I don't know
as t h i s demand on her p a r t t h a t he g e t h i s lessons helped
things. But she was i n a jam, In f a c t , i t w a s tough,
He w a s perfectly able t o earn money but he wouldn't f o r
her. W
e had no idea they were a c t u a l l y starving, For
a period the only f u l l meal t h a t they got i n a week was
the Sunday dinner t h a t they got up a t our house. A s you
can see, trouble was brewing. He had some kind of an
idea of parking her down i n Virginia and he would work
up i n New York, It might have sounded kind of rational,
but i t was u t t e r l y inhuman.
To make a very long story short -- there were l o t s
of unpleasant s i d e s t o it -- she f i n a l l y gave him up and
Pepper: got divorced. And then the war was on and she signed up
f o r canteen work and there she was meeting the boys, you
see, and a young naval o f f i c e r f e l l i n love with her --
i n f a c t , more than one [laughter] -- but t h i s one was the
one. That vas a l l r i g h t , t h a t w a s f i n e , but vhat does he
do? Oh, she didn't know what he did. [laughter] But i t
turned out t h a t he was an astronomer, had a Ph,D. from
Princeton, and w a s a navigator on a plane. He vas f l y i n g
over Japan i n those days on bombing raids.
Well, they married. (She, of course, vas very young,
she was f i r s t married when she was seventeen. And there
was a parental problem, a l l r i g h t ; w
e were not too c e r t a i n
from the beginning t h a t t h i s first marriage vas a good
idea, and i t turned out not t o be, but they got two beau-
t i f u l daughters out of it, r e a l l y beautiful. ~ e b e ' sand
Dick's physiques combined vere j u s t r i g h t t o produce r e a l
beauties.) Bebe and Brad a f t e r the war lived i n Tucson,
where he had charge of the laboratory there, and then he
got the c a l l t o the University of Pennsylvania where he
I ,
moved up rapidly and became head of the department and
head of the observatory. The university provides them a
house out i n the country near Paoli, next t o the observa-
tory. Very beautiful country. They have a pony f o r the
boy and they allow him t o r i d e the pony anywhere, provid-
ing he doesn't cross a s t r e e t . But there a r e plenty of
places t o r i d e i n that country without crossing a road.
They a r e l i v i n g very happily and very well. This has
worked out w e l l . And then there a r e two more children
from the second marriage.
Riess: What is h i s name?
Pepper: H i s name is It's Frank, but h i s f a t h e r ' s Frank, s o
we call him F
. Bradshaw Wood.
He apparently J u s t g o t some big honor of a Job i n New
Zealand. I think i t must be s e t t i n g up some special
observatory, He's coming through here next Sunday, He's
apparently going o f f t o g e t i t s t a r t e d , It's j u s t a
two-week affair, so they must f e e l he's p r e t t y important
t o send him half-way around the world on a job l i k e this.
I'm veryp-oud of him, and so's she. He's a very f i n e
scholar.
Riess: What about church a f f i l i a t i o n ?
Pepper: Oh, I vas very e a r l y out of the church. My grandfather,
as I t o l d you, was s B a p t i s t minister, [see p. 2
.
1 In
m
y e a r l y childhood there was church all around, My
mother, s t r a n g e l y enough, pulled away from i t -- my
f a t h e r always went t o church while I w a s a c h i l d -- and,
by the time I was a b l e t o think about these things I
r e a l i z e d t h a t not only did she not go t o church but she
was an a t h e i s t , So t h a t i t was a kind of a n i n t e r e s t i n g
family background. But a l l t h a t I knew about i t u n t i l
considerably l a t e r was t h a t she didn't go t o church.
M
y f a t h e r I think f o r tworeasons went: he w a s not
much of a believer but i t w a s i n respect t o h i s f a t h e r ,
perhaps, i n part; and a l s o , I think he thought t h a t f o r
proper bringing-up of h i s c h i l d -- he wouldn't take a
Pepper: 	 chance anyway -- he would see t h a t I had the conventions.
So, ? went t o church and Sunday-school regularly. Of
course, i n P a r i s we didn' t. That was, I suppose, when
the r e a l break came, f o r my mother especially. Hy parents
didn't go t o church abroad at all, s o i t couldn't have
been very deep with my f a t h e r e i t h e r .
I remember t h a t they thought t h a t f had s c a r l e t fever
at one time -- t h i s w a s my freshman year i n college, as
a matter of f a c t -- so that I was out f o r about two
months and I l o s t the last p a r t of the term and had t o
make up courses t h a t I'd l o s t . I got s t a r t e d reading
the New Testament then. I think i f anybody had approached
me j u s t at t h a t time I probably would have joined the
church. But t h i s was the beginning of the end, I g o t
back t o college sophomore year, and the boys t h a t I w a s
with were not p a r t i c u l a r l y church-gosrs, though they
were not p a r t i c u l a r l y a n t i e i t h e r -- well, some were --
but there was not very much church feeling among the
Harvard boys there* Ue did not have to go t o chapel
t
and w e r a t h e r prided ourselves on not, on showing our
individualism. However, when I was i'n Concord on the
weekends, as I frequently was, I 'd go to church as usual.
This must have been happening earlier, even i n l a t e
high school. I had a very good friend there who l a t e r
became a professor of Bnglish a t Dartmouth and the
University of Washington. He vent t o the same church,
and we decided t h a t M
r
. Tewksbury's sermons were not
very interesting. Tewksburysa sermons were, i n f a c t ,
r a t h e r deadly. W
e found Emerson and Thoreau and W i l l i a m
James and o t h e r s l i k e t h i s mueh mors interesting. But
Pepper: w
e s t i l l had a kind of a conscience about i t and s o when
we would normally have been going t o t h e sermon w
e took
these books up i n the h i l l s , i f i t wasn't raining, and we
read them and t h a t was our sermon. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
I n fact,
i t was r e a l l y q u i t e educative. Really, we read a l o t of
n i c e essays t h a t way -- we talked them over, you see, and
t h a t s o r t of thing. So I was beginning t o be r a t h e r f r e e
from church.
Later there was another complication. I was g e t t i n g
i n t e r e s t e d i n a g i r l c a l l e d Ellen Hoar i n Concord. She
was a Unitarian. And r e a l l y i t bothered m
e a l o t f o r a
period whether conscientiously a T r i n i t a r i a n could have
a happy married l i f e with a Unitarian. How could i t be?
I can remember arguiad t h i s thing out with myself walking
through the woods a t Concord, and i t r e a l l y concerned me
a l o t . This is p e r t i n e n t because i t was giving me some
motivation t o p u l l away, 1 think.
I n the midst of m
y junior year I g o t a l e t t e r from
my male Sunday-school teacher saying t h a t he hadn't seen
me i n Sunday-school f o r a long time, and he hoped t h a t
i t didn't mean t h a t I wasn't coming, and would I please
come, t h a t i t was b e n e f i c i a l t~ them and t o me. A n i c e
letter, a very n i c e l e t t e r it was. Well, the breaking time
had arrived, and t h i s was the stirnulous f o r an explosion.
I r e p l i e d i n a l e t t e r which must r e a l l y have been some-
thing, saying t h a t I had come t o the conclusion t h a t the
Christian r e l i g i o n was as much e v i l as i t w a s good, and
the t e r r i b l e things t h a t i n the name of C h r i s t i a n i t y had
been done i n the past, and oh, I don't know what a l l , but
i t was a boyishly-reasoned and I guess p r e t t y intensely-
Pepper: s a i d l e t t e r . And I s e n t i t off.
I guess 1 skipped coming home t h a t Sunday, but the week
a f t e r t h a t I came back, and my f a t h e r and mother were
concerned. They s a i d there seemed t o have been a l e t t e r
t h a t I had written t h a t w a s giving some excitement a t the
church. What had I done? I told them what I had done.
Meantime, I had gotten a l e t t e r from m
y female Sunday-
school teacher which was q u i t e a sentimental l e t t e r .
Again I had a feeling of r a t i o n a l j u s t i f i c a t i o n and duty
t h a t I had t o reply t o her and explain i n reasoned terms
-- i t would have been another l e t t e r l i k e the other one --
and of course ny parents could s e e t h a t t h i s was perfectly
inappropriate. I was young and naive enough that I could
n o t see, but I was f i n a l l y persuaded by my parents t h a t
t h i s was not the t h i n g t o do. I never wrote that l e t t e r ,
fortunately.
But t h a t next Sunday in church which of course I didn't
go t o -- John and I were up i n the h i l l s reading J m e s o r
Emerson o r Huxley o r somebody -- Mr. Tewksbury preaohed
,
a sermon about f a t h e r s who were delinquent i n sending
t h e i r children t o f a i t h l e s s colleges. M
y father never
vent t o church again -- though he oontinued f o r many
years to pay the cthurch dues -- t h a t was the end of that.
It w a s a very coaplete break, and Mr. Tewksbury managed
t o make i t more than complete, and I guess my f a t h e r ' s
not going a t t h a t point did soaethipg t o m
e t o make It
s t i l l more complete, because 1 f e l t t h a t was r a t h e r awful,
as i t was, to have my f a t h e r preachedwainst.
Pepper : M
r
. McDonald, who was the Unitarian minister, some
good many years l a t e r s a i d t h i s was never forgotten, t h i s
was a climax in Concord l i f e --
Riess: M
r
. Tewksbury had spread the word of your l e t t e r a l l over?
Pepper: Yes, and he was speaking t o Mr. McDonald about how awful
i t was and McDonald's reply, as he t o l d us, was nWhy,
Mr. Tewksbury, I'd think you'd be glad t o have a thinking
man i n your c h ~ r c h . ~
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So Tewksbury didn't
g e t much comfort.
From t h a t moment I had no more problem about matri-
monial l i f e with Ellen. I n f a c t , the reverse. Bow I
had jumped over h e r position, you see, and she wouldn't
-
go as far as that. She thought there vas some Being
deserving of respect i n t h e Universe, though she didn't
think t h a t C h r i s t w
a
s divine. I'd jumped way beyond
there being any Being of t h i s kind i n the Universe. I
w a s a good, thorough a t h e i s t by then.
But the whole thing -- how I could have been so
, t r o u b l e d and concerned about j u s t a l i t t l e thing l i k e
believing i n a T r i n i t y o r anything l i k e t h a t j u s t seemed
so artificial and funny t o m
e then and afterwards. It
would still %o me, except t h a t I have the memory of t h e
deep concern t h a t one who is brought up i n church does
have. So I've always been r a t h e r g e n t l e i n r e l i g i o u s
matters with, well, the freshman c l a s s e s and s o on, where
I'm p r e t t y careful. It is, I think, impossible for a
man t o be a philosopher with any freedom of thought and
a t t h e same time a d o c t r i n a l believer i n anything. You've
j u s t got t o be f r e e . Professionally you have t o be an
agnostic.
Riess: 	 A t t h i s time t h a t you were out of school and reading the
New Testament, if you had been approached and joined the
church would you have stayed, do you think?
Pepper: 	 Oh, I ' d have dropped it. The r e a c t i o n can hardly have
been greater than i t was.
M
y grandfather, I think, f e l t i t h i s duty t o do some-
thing about bringing me t o the church. W
e went d r i v i n g
-- You see, m
y f a t h e r always had horses then, and very
frequently I ' d h i t c h up a horse o r the pony and go f o r
a d r i v e through the oountry. I remember driving o f f i n
t h e country on one of these seven or eight-mile d r i v e s
with my grandfather. He had m e well out s o I was caught,
I couldn't g e t away. He had t c t e l l m
e t h a t he thought
t h a t the proper thing t o do was t o join the church.
However, I f e l t t h a t there was a l i t t l e something funny
about t h a t ; i n f a c t t h i s was the only time I ' d s a y i n
my r e l a t i o n with m
y grandfather t h a t I f e l t t h i s was not
q u i t e out of h i s heart, so t o speak, t h a t t h i s was some-
thing he f e l t he ought t o do, but not something t h a t he
f e l t l i k e doing.
1 was awfully uncomfortable about t h i s thing, but
at one s t a g e of the discussion when maybe I was pressing
him a l i t t l e b i t about t h e rational s i d e of it he s a i d
something -- and t h i s was, by t h e way, before the break
-- which r e a l l y helped m
e towards the break, because I
had g r e a t admiration f o r m
y grandfather, he was my i d e a l
of a man, stepping r i g h t over m
y f a t h e r , i n a way, and
t h e r e were some reasons f o r t h a t -- he s a i d t h a t i f he
f e l t t h a t the existence of God couldn't r a t i o n a l l y be
Pepper: 	 made out he wouldn't believe. I f e l t t h a t i t could not be
r a t i o n a l l y made out, s o i n a way I had my grandfather's
blessing i n d i r e c t l y i n not believing.
But t h a t was q u i t e a c r i s i s i n a college boy's l i f e ,
and i t happens t o l o t s , and I've had many --
Riess: A l o t j u s t d r i f t away, but you f e l t t h a t i t w a s necessary
t o explain r a t i o n a l l y j u s t what you were doing.
Pepper: Well, a l l things were very r a t i o n a l f o r m
e i n those days.
Everything was. The g r e a t e s t compliment my grandfather
could give t o anything was to say i t was rational. So i t t s
i n the whole family background. And then strangely enough,
of course, m
y f a t h e r was an artist. Well, I think you can
see why there was a c e r t a i n tendency very e a r l y f o r me t o
go i n t o the i n t e l l e c t u a l rather than the c r e a t i v e d i r e c t i o n
-- the strong i n t e l l e c t u a l background of both parents'
families, my extreme admiration f o r m
y grandfather as an
ideal, and m
y f e e l i n g I could never r i v a l m
y f a t h e r ' s
c r e a t i v e work. That's funny too, because m
y ambition
wzs t o be a poet; I knew i t was impossible, but t h a t ' s
what I wanted t o be, a poet, And i n a c e r t a i n way I kind
of hoped t h a t philosophy would turn out t o be creative.
I think t h a t ' s the way I a c t u a l l y have treated it, very
largely, I n f a c t , m
y first published book, Aesthetic Q u a l i t y ,
is a kind of a poem. I have an a f f e c t i o n f o r t h a t book
more than f o r any of m
y other books, nearly a l l of which
a r e much more worked-out,
But my grandfather was the i d e a l of a r a t i o n a l man,
of course a man of social prominence as minister of the
church and president of a college, s o t h a t he was a n a t u r a l
Pepper: ideal. Also the sense of very close family loyalty was
something that ran through particularly the Coburn side
of the family and was i n s t i l l e d i n m
e very muah. To speak
i n pride of e i t h e r of m
y parents was l i k e speaking i n
pride of myself; i t seemed t o m
e to be bragging.
One time these Misses Hosmer, m
y early teachers, were
much pleased with what I was doing with them, and they
complimented me on m
y intelligence, and I said, "I ought
to have a mind, I got it from my grandfather." This was
reported to m
y father and amused him very, very much,
[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
And I was r e a l l y kind of troubled t h a t ha
should take i t as amusing. This went much more deeply
than that. I would no more have s a i d that I got m
y
intelligence from him than that I ' d gotten i t naturally
out of myself. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
But it's an indication d
something about the bringing-up, o r about that particular
phase of New England c u l t u r a l bringing-up that that brings
, out*
Riess: It's nice that you could look a t your grandfather as an
image t o identify with.
Pepper: 	 That's what I d i d ; he was m
y model f o r a l l s o r t s of things,
though m
y father was too i n other ways. But certainly a l l
through m
y youth my grandfather was explicitlymy model.
Riess: 	 But you might not have thought of being a poet unless you
were your f a t h e r ' s son.
Writing a Metaphysics
Riess: You mentioned your first book. What a r e you working on now?
Pepper: I
'
m writing a metaphysics, and I ' m q u i t e excited about it.
The l a t e s t chapter is q u i t e wild and I think i t ' s a l s o
true. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] And t h i s may turn out, strangely enough,
t o be m
y best book, though I thought t h a t the Sources of
Value [1958] was it. I finished t h a t chapter t h i s morning
and I j u s t took i t i n t o be typed. I am about half t o
two-thirds of the way through. It's supposed t o be done
i n July, but i t won't be. You don't know how things a r e
going t o turn out. I had a general idea what I was doing
but when I got i n t o d e t a i l s they drew me i n and l e d t o
things I didn't know about. It's a very e x c i t i n g business.
Riess: Vhen you a r e writing t h i s book do you find yourself working
f o r solutions t o the d i f f i c u l t i e s of the world today?
Pepper: M
y two books, Sources of Value and Ethics,are the books
t h a t carry t h a t through f o r me. I n f a c t , the l i t t l e
Ethics is the one t h a t I put together from material with
obvious p r a c t i c a l application out of Sources of Value,
and t h i s l i t t l e book is a kind of a summary, an epitome.
And I think it's a damned good l i t t l e book. I t g o t very
l i t t l e n o t i c e i n the .journals; I think it's regarded there
as simply a kind of addendum t o the Sources of Value,
which got l o t s of notice. I haven't seen any review
of i t at all.
Riess: What is the name of -it?
Pepper: Ethics.
Riess: I don't remember its being l i s t e d i n who's Who.
Pepper: No, it's too recent. I f i l l e d out the most recent who's Who
j u s t a l i t t l e while ago, so i t ' l l g e t i n t o the next one.
I wrote t h i s i n 1958-59, j u s t a f t e r the Sources of Value,
It was, i n a way, an easy thing t o do because there w a s
p r a c t i c a l l y no new material t o get. It was written off
with a dash and a unity and I was writing what I believed
and h i t t i n g the views t h a t I didn't, which is quite
d i f f e r e n t from m
y e a r l i e r things where I was being
balanced. This book is what I believe. I still balance,
but I ' m not trying t o be on both s i d e s a t the same time in
these l a t t e r books.
The present book I ' m writing is what seems t o m
e a
possible new way of looking at the world as a whole. It's
a metaphysics; it's a world view on a new basis. Conse-
I quently it's going t o look wild. Whitehead is the man
who's come nearest t o what I ' m doing, and i n f a c t I kind
of think maybe Whitehead was beginning t o do the same
thing, so t h a t I've gotten a good deal of stimulus from
him. But its p r a c t i c a l implications a r e q u i t e a long
distance off from vhat I'm writing, though i t has them.
t
It's one of those books which I think you're beginning t o
see come out t h a t put quality back i n t o the world -- o r
c a l l i t feeling.
You see, we've gone through a period dominated by
mechanism, the extreme form of which is materialism, i n
which q u a l i t i e s and feelings a r e r e s t r i c t e d t o l i t t l e
b i t s of islands on another l i t t l e b i t of island called
The Earth i n the midst of the g r e a t , big Universe. There
I
Pepper: is something funny about that. And if you don't regard the
1 nature of the world as made up of electro-magnetic
1 properties and such-like, why then you take a positivistic
or operational view and say, "These are only concepts, we
just don't know what the great world is, and it's foolish
1 to try to know."
! Here I
'
m with Whitehead in that I think we have plenty
of evidence to show that we can project these feelings
1 quite widely. The beginning of it is that we can have a
i very intimate sense of the feelings of other people, so
that we are perceiving their minds when we are conversing
with each other. 1-thinkyou're looking right into my
mind as we have been talking here over these days. And I
think I've got quite a sense of yours.
i
I Riess: Then is it based on length of acquaintance?
Pepper: The longer the acquaintance the more reliable the give and
take. You see, we are organisms of the same degree of
1 integration. Oh, I think that television is not a bad
I
analogy, it's something more than an analogy; in the 

television here is a black and white flat scene which is 

taken off the photo-electric cell and turned into a 

I pattern -- the two-dimensional pictorial scene runs into
a one-dimensional pattern -- and then the electric
currents are electro-magnetically transferred and put 

back together again in the two-dimensional pattern which 

you view. So that we say that you are viewing the scene 

and in a way you are, because the transmission is so good.
The same sort of thing happens in communication
1
between two organisms on the same level of integration,
4
Pepper:
Riess: 

Pepper: 

Riess: 

Pepper: 

Pepper: 

Riess t 

Pepper: 

as two persons are. The f e e l i n g p a t t e r n g e t s t r a n s f e r r e d
i n t o a behavior p a t t e r n and i f the behavior happens t o
be words, i n t o t h i s one-dimensional verbal p a t t e r n which
is then transmitted by air v i b r a t i o n s , i n t h i s case, o r
by gestures, which a r e q u i t e r e l i a b l e , then put back
together again by the receiving mechanism. H
e is f e e l i n g ,
i f i t comes together r i g h t , the other feelings.
There a r e s o many things, though, t h a t conspire t o make
i t n o t oome together r i g h t .
That's e x a c t l y the case, and the same way with television.
But those a r e capable of a considerable degree of correc-
tion.
And i n saying something t o one person you aonvey something
q u i t e d i f f e r e n t from saying the same words t o another.
Oh, n a t u r a l l y , but you have t o understand each other.
Of course, with words it's a l i t t l e l e s s d i r e c t than i t
is with d i r e c t gestures. You know i f somebody l i k e s you
o r somebody hates you.
Would a t h i r d person be a b l e , by watching snd l i s t e n i n g
t o the communication between two other persons, t o recog-
n i z e the f e e l i n g s involved?
1t's the g i v e and take. And i t has t o go on long enough
t h a t i t i s not simply t h a t your a n t i c i p a t i o n s f i t , but
t h a t your r e a c t i o n s mesh. There's a double-check i n
t h i s communication.
How does t h i s work with psychoanalysis?
Well, now, the psychoanalyst has been with a person f o r
q u i t e a while. I n f a c t , the psychoanalytical technique
Pepper: 	 is one which is making most of this. They speak of s o r t
of empathizing. I think t h a t ' s s t r a i g h t . You see, i n
t h i s theory t h i s is not making a d i r e c t perception i n t o
the other person's mind; t h i s is not a d i r e c t perception
theory. It's a representative perception theory. It's
making use of the whole physiological-physical apparatus
as r e l a t i v e l y s t r a i g h t . That is, the s t r u c t u r e of the
world, relationally, is about what physiology and physics
says i t is. But the thing is t h a t we haven't made f u l l
use of interpreting what goes on betwsbn two people
conversing with each other.
O
n my view i t would follow t h a t the psychoanalyst,
with constant interviews with h i s subject over a year o r
so, would know t h a t person so well -- and t h i s is delib-
e r a t e l y a one-sided thing i n that case because he is n o t
l e t t i n g on h i s s i d e of i t a t all. I n fact, he's arrange-
ing things s o that you project on him your own -- oh,
you're projecting the f a t h e r o r the mother or some other
person t h a t ' s been a source of emotional s t r e s s f o r you.
But you g e t i t still m9re i n where a husband and wife
get to know each other s o well. You know, m
y wife and f
can be driving and won't have s a i d anything f o r ten
minutes and then s h e ' l l say something and t h a t ' s ~ u s t
what I was thinking. Bow, t h i s is not telepathy because
we can trace i t back generally.
Riess: 	 To the same associations.
Pepper: 	 The same associations. It w a s a red barn we just passed
and w
e remember the red barns of Sweden and she mentions
a c e r t a i n place i n Sweden and t h a t ' s what I was thinking
Peppers of. That happens over and over again. There's nothing
miraculous i n t h a t , but we haven't taken f u l l advantage
of what it signifies, t h a t ' s what I
'
m saying. That we
do get the f e e l of other people's feelings. The complex,
emotional ones, they're the toughest. W
e can check up,
for instance, on eaah other's sensory perception of your
cigarette there, f o r instance. That's easy.
But what a r e a l l these perceptions? I've been reading
a l o t about psychological perception l a t e l y , and s i z e
constancy and a l l t h i s , the various i l l u s i o n s and so on.
The d e t a i l with which it's possible to check where you
go off has the opposite significance of how secure ve
are when we don't have t o check. Which doesn't, inci-
dentally, mean t h a t we perceive exactly the same, but
that there's ar? awful l o t of correspondence.
Once you've made t h i s transition i t goes much further.
To make a long story short -- because, you see, it's going
t o require a l o t of pointing-out of relationships -- the
i n t r i n s i c dynamics of things are, on t h i s view, the
qualitative ones. It's i n what w
e c a l l our introspective
accounts th3t w
e a r e getting closest t o nsture, i f you
want t o c a l l i t that. Actually w
e a r e feeling what is
going on there. A large part o f the r e s t of i t is sym-
bolic, and conceptual. My t i t l e i a Concept a n d Qualitg.
I find reason f o r hypothesizing t h a t the dynamic centers,
and t h i s would be running r i g h t down i n t o the atoms and
sub-atoms, that the dynamic centers are qualitative. The
s c i e n t i s t s , the physicists, are presenting us v i t h rela-
tional concepts about -these qualitative dynrunic centers,
Pepper: but we are actually i n the midst of these centers when we
are looking into our own reactions qualitatively. And i n
terms of the physical and conceptual relational structures
that's where you'd expect to find quality, nowhere else.
Riess: I a,ri in over m
y head, I know that,
Pepper: Well, l e t ' s hope i t is not regarded as completely fantastic.
It should create a good deal o f f u s s ,
SINCE RETIREMENT
Riess: Since 1954 you have been the M i l l s Professor of I n t e l l e c t u a l
and Moral Philosophy and C i v i l Polity, What is that?
Pepper: That is a fund which w a s l e f t by a group of people, probably
Mills was the bhief donor, f o r a professorship i n philosophy
which supposedly was t o be an extra.* But those things
never turn out to be extras more than a few years, There
a r e a l o t of experiences of t h a t s o r t , It got absorbed
i n t o the regular budget and now it's nothing but the honor
of the thing,
Riess: It's a good long t i t l e .
Pepper: And i t has a l l s o r t s of the atmosphere of the 19th century.
I t sounds awful funny now, I t r y t o g e t people t o say j u s t
H i l l s Professor and be done with it. I ' m emeritus now; the
Mills Professor who's g e t t i n g the income is W i l l Dennes.
visit in^ Professor
Riess: Hamline University and Macalester College where you taught
i n the f a l l of 1958 sound l i k e an i n t e r e s t i n g p a i r of
schools, one Methodist, one Presbyterian.
Pepper: Yes. They're i n a region of Minnesota t h a t i s full of
*
"With the income of the fund set up by M
r
. [ ~ a r i u sogden]
Wills, the young University vas enabled t o i n v i t e t o its
s t a f f George Holmes Howison, who not only b u i l t up a depart-
ment of philosophy a t Berkeley, but established the Philo-
sophical Union, now one of the oldest and most respected
philosophical organizations i n the country... Following
Professor Howison, eighteen of the leading philosophers of
the world were brought t o Berkeley f o r periods of a year,
and f i n a l l y permanent appointment t o t h i s c h a i r was accorded
t o George Plimpton Adarns [died 1961]." Endowed Chairs of
Learning, U.C. Press, 1947, p. 6.
Pepper: small colleges, St, Olaf's and Gustavus Adolphus, and another
college I've forgotten the name of, which a r e Lutheran.
( ~ n d
a bigoted Lutheran is worse than a Catholic.) The
colleges vary i n quality. S t . O l a f ' s is a very n i c e college
with p r e t t y good standards and a famous choir. But
Gustavus Adolphus i s j u s t simply awful. Then besides those
three, and Hamline and Macalester, there is Carlton, which
is a f i r s t - r a t e college.
Riess: What were you doing there?
Pepper: They have what they c a l l the H i l l Professorship -- t h a t
w a s the last year of i t -- and I was to have i t f o r the
f a l l term. It was a single-term affair, very well paid,
Riess: It was done j o i n t l y by Hamline and Macalester?
Pepper: Yes.
Riess: Did they cooperate on things?
Pepper: Well, apparently they didn't, and the function of the H i l l
Foundation was t o g e t a man from the outside and make c e r t a i n
other arrangements with hopes t h a t they would get on b e t t e r
terms, It must have worked because they seemed t o be on
very good terms when I was there,
Riess: They look t o be a l l s i t u a t e d on top of each other; Hamline
and M ~ c a l e s t e ra r e both i n S t . Paul 1, Minn,
Pepper: Hamline and Macalester were ever much of a problem.
b c a l e s t e r has much more money and c h i e f l y f o r t h a t reason
is the b e t t e r oollege. It has a chance t o r i v a l Carlton,
t h o u ~ hi t ' s g o t a way t o go yet. Hamline i s r e a l l y q u i t e
poor and i t has a r a t h e r mediocre f a c u l t y too. I think
i t ' s no longer a university because what made i t a univer-
s i t y was t h a t i t had a nursing school, and I think they
Pepper: 	 dropped that, so I think it's Hamline College now, A t any
rate, there was no question of the superiority of Wacalester.
Riess: 	 The next term you were at Colby.
1
Pepper: 	 Yes. That was a long-standing invitation, and the H i l l
Foundation offered only a one-term appointment, so I wrote
President Bixler and said that I was available for the
spring term of 1959, and he engaged me right off. I spent
t h a t time there, with the family living i n New Haven. I
used t o have my classes on Tuesday and Wednesday, sometimes
overlapping Thursday, so that I was able to be long weekends
at New Haven.
Riess: And you had lrrade s deliberate plan to do a l l these t h i n g s
s o t h a t you wouldn't be around here f o r the interim period.
Pepper: That's right.
The next thing was Santa Barbara. To give the whole
story, they wanted m
e t o be what mounted to a l e t t e r s and
science dean at Santa Barbara. And I said "nou as usual.
Riess: 	 Why? Because it was just administrative?
Pepper: 	 The r e a l thing was I didn't want to go and l i v e i n Santa
Barbara. I wanted t o l i v e here. But I s a i d that I ' d be
glad t o teach there and give any advice they asked f o r if
I could l i v e here. So they had m
e f o r a seminar down
there. That would be the f a l l of 1959, wouldnft it? I
commuted dovn and gave t h i s aeminar once a week. It was a
very interesting time. I got t o know the campus there and
their problems. And even though I vas not a dean, Gould
would just occasionally see me, using m
y advice more or
less. Oh, but I ' m glad I didn' t take the deanship there.
Riess: 	 You would r e a l l y have had t o move there and be active full-
t i m e ?
Pepper: Oh, yes, absolutely.
The following spring, the spring of 1960, we went t o
Japan as we had planned t o do f o r sone time. Then i n t h e
f a l l of 1960 I taught an upper division course here i n
metaphysics. The s p r i n g of 1961 I taught i n Tulane -- a
very i n t e r e s t i n g period.
Riess: Vas t h a t a regular teaching load, o r w a s i t a l e c t u r e
s e r i e s ?
Pepper: Oh, real teaching, with two courses. Generally a v i s i t i n g
professor they l e t o f f on two courses. And I had a course
i n a e s t h e t i c s and a seminar i n metaphysics. A very i n t e r -
e s t i n g time indeed, and I g o t a sense of the Southern sit-
uation and the d i f f i c u l t y those people have. However, I
came out w i t h the f e e l i n g t h a t the North's j u s t g o t t o
press them i n order to make i n t e g r a t i o n go.
Riess: Had you been teaching a e s t h e t i c s a l l the way through your
time here?
Pepper: Yes, 1 always taught a e s t h e t i c s as long as I was here; 1
always had t h a t course. Then I taught a e s t h e t i c s at Hamline
and Hacalester. A t Colby I didn't. But I taught a e s t h e t i c s
and metaphysics at Tulane. A t Santa Barbara I taught a
seminar i n the theory of value, using the Sources of Value
which was j u s t out.
Biess: Were you happy t o be located various places various semes-
ters as you vere?
Pepper: I l i k e b e s t of a l l being located here and doing a l i t t l e
teaching. That 'a the b e s t s i t u a t i o n .
Riess: I should think the traveling v i s i t i n g professor l i f e would
be very hard.
Pepper: 	 I chose m
y colleges p r e t t y carefully. I don't know where
I ' d want t o go now, but the New Orleans t r i p was t r e a l l y
fun. And I wanted t o go back t o Colby because I was
craving the snow again. Fortunately i t w a s a snowy winter
and t h a t was fine, The S t . Paul thing was a l s o a new thing
t o rae and t h a t was fun. But I don*t know what i n America
could be new any more. I know the Middle West. I know
the South. Of course I know t h e East. And I ' v e had t h i s
n i c e s p e l l of a real snow period at Colby. So I'm p r e t t y
happy t o s t a y here, though I d i d enjoy doing a l i t t l e
teaching,
Work a t San Dieao
Background of Pepper's I n t e r e s t
Riess: 	 What is i t you are doing at San Diego now?
Pepper: 	 I'm very excited about t h a t San Diego business, This is
not m
y doing i n the same way t h a t the art department was;
of course t h a t w a s a cooperative business anyway, but the
art department j u s t would not, probably, be what i t i s now
i f I hadn't put m
y work i n there. The San Diego thing
i s n ' t l i k e t h a t , but r e a l l y there's a c r e a t i v e job there.
I think it's very exciting. It's a brand-new experiment
i n higher education t h a t they're developing there.
They wanted me t o be dean down Lhera a l s o , and I said,
nNothing doing," Santa Barbara job thing a l l over again.
But I s a i d i f they could arrange i t , if i t would be worth
Pepper: t h e i r while t o have m
e commute down i n an advisory position
t h a t would be okay, which they did.
Kiess: When did you start on t h i s ?
Pepper: I was approached e a r l y i n the summer of 1961. Chancellor
Herbert York ap2roached me, I think the s t o r y is this:
they wanted somebody t o d i r e c t the humanities and s o c i a l
sciences work there, the development of the University i n
t h a t way. Wellman was enquiring around and Strong
recormended me. I think t h a t ' s the s t o r y p r e t t y nearly
s t r a i g h t , from those men, So on Strong's recommendation
t o Wellman, who recommended i t .to York, York c a l l e d m
e up
and we had two or three s e s s i o n s together. F i r s t I
refused i t outright, I d i d n ' t want t o be a dean. But I
accepted the chairmanship of a committee. Really t h a t
worked out very well. I don1t -know whether t h a t was h i s
i d e a o r mine o r both, but at any r a t e t h a t vas developed,
Riess: Did they havea dean of l e t t e r s and science?
Pepper: NO, t h i s committee has been doing the whole thing, This
was a very good group. And one of the amazing things is
t h a t I, along with York, chose outstanding men f o r the
committee, busy men whom w e f e l t would be the most u s e f u l
men i n the whole University. Ue chose W i l l Dennes fZom
here, and Lynn White from UCLA, and Robert Kisbet, who I
guess is vice-chancellor now a t Riverside. Every one
accepted, and with a c e r t a i n degree of enthusiasm. So
w
e r e a l l y had a s w e l l committee. There were four men
from down there who were good men.
Riess: From Scripps.
Pepper: Yes, And of course York is ex-officio, It's a committee
Pepper: of eight with York as a member.
Hiess: How often did you g e t together?
Pepper: W
e got together as a committee once a month. And I went
down a l l through the f a l l twice a month.
Now, there are two phases t o it. One is the academic-
physical organization of t h e University as a whole, and the
other is recruiting. S t r i c t l y speaking, I think our job
was to be recniting. But we g o t involved i n the other
job which is basically more important.
They a r e developing a multiple-college system down
there. This has q u i t e a history, and I donTt think they
could probably have chosen a b e t t e r man than m
e i f that's
the way they wanted t o go because the impersonality of
the big, monolithic university is something t h a t ' s
bothered m
e ever since I went t o college. It didn't seem
t o me t o be necessary. I don't know as I put any awfully
serious thought on it u n t i l they began to put up dormi-
t o r i e s here -- and I knew these were coming because I was
on the BCD committee.
Meantime, Harvard had gotten a solution t o t h i s prob-
lem. They have one of the best developments i n a big
university t h a t there is. It is based on an extensive,
very expensive dormitory system - house system -- so
that every student who comes i n there is located i n a
house as a freshman and g e t s an acquaintance at once.
That was due to Lowell. When I went there you just were
tossed i n t o a big cauldron and i t was j u s t luck who you
happened t o meet. With luck i t always turned out t h a t
you did meet a crowd. But we never lived i n anything
Pepper: 	 l i k e a campus organization u n t i l we were seniors. I ' v e
t o l d you how our crowd formed a t Harvard. This crowd
stuck together a l l through the university and f i n a l l y
had an e n t r y i n Holworthy H a l l i n our s e n i o r year. W
e
ended up with a kind of grand, unifying sense, but i t
didn't happen at a l l u n t i l then.
Lowell w a s aware of t h a t need. E l i o t , he was a free-
e l e c t i v e man. And goodness gracious thdt worked a l l r i g h t
f o r me, but not f o r a g r e a t many boys, This idea of a
big, monolithic university seemed t o m
e unnecessarily
impersonal.
Riess: 	 And t h i s impersonality was r e f l e c t e d too i n r e l a t i o n s
be tween students and faculty, probably.
Pepper: That didn't concern m
e so much, may?)e p a r t l y because I
had never had any advantage of close contact with a
f a c u l t y man. But I never sought i t and I didn't f e e l the
need of it. The b e s t c l a s s e s t h a t I had at Harvard were
the big classes, without exception, with very, very able
I men, f i n e l e c t u r e r s , and real personalities. I g o t a
sense of 	the character of these men r i g h t off the platform.
I've always been a g r e a t supporter of the b i g l e c t u r e s ,
and incidentally, of course, took g r e a t pains t o do my
darndest t o be a good big l e c t u r e r . But t h i s I am per-
f e c t l y sure of, t h a t i t is much b e t t e r t o have the con-
tact with a big man off the platform a t a big l e c t u r e
than i t i s t o hbve the olose contact with a mediocre o r
submediocre man i n a s m a l l class, [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So I
don't think the usual junior-college and state-college
argument f o r s m a l l classes, per se, r e a l l y means a darn
Pepper: 	 thing because I know vhat t h e i r f a c u l t y on the whole is,
It's a mediocre l o t of men, on the whole.
I had a number of small classes at Harvard, and the
big classes were the ones t h a t made the g r e a t e s t e f f e c t ,
Strangely enough, one of these small classes was on
Browning, with Dean Briggs who was one of the characters,
had a great reputation. Well, he was deaning and I think
he didn't prepare h i s l e c t u r e s and j u s t "dropped i n n on
t h i s course. It w a s one of the worst courses I had a t
Harvard, And t h a t was a small one; there vere only about
twenty of us there, and he w a s too busy, The class i n
Greek was another story. That vas about twenty-five stu-
dents and very w e l l given, by a young man. But there you
have it. This man w a s p r e t t y close friends of two or
three of the boys i n there, I think he w a s a r e l a t i v e
of one of them, and s o we were almost on a first-name
basis with him. But he was young and a l l I can say here
is this: w
e had the benefit of close contsct with a r e a l l y
able young man. But i t j u s t did not have the impact of
men l i k e Palmer and Taussig and Monroe, these r e a l l y big
fellows, talking off the platform. You j u s t f e l t t h e i r
power and t h e i r personality and t h e i r knowledge. So I
think the big l e c t u r e by the big man is a11 right.
The College Plan
Hiess: 	 Then I guess I ' m not c l e a r about the problems with the
monolithic university structure,
Pepper: It's t h e s o c i a l s i d e of the student. The f a c u l t y relation-
s h i p seems t o be secondary, though i t still could be impor-
tant.
Riess: I n the dormitories here, incidentally, they have a f a c u l t y
fellow arrangement.
Pepper: Yes, they i n v i t e d me over there the o t h e r day, That kind
of thing is fine. But r e a l l y , what I had i n mind w a s a
combination of the advantages of a small college f o r student
s o c i a b i l i t y and a c e r t a i n amount of intimacy with the
f a c u l t y -- though you see I don't rate i t as high us others
do -- and the advantages of a g r e a t university i n the excel-
l e n t personnel, the scholars t h a t they have. This is what
I undertook t o bring about at San Diego and I think we've
done it.
Riess: How?
Pepper: Well, i t involved a gimmfck o r two. In the first place, I
was lucky because they already had the idea. Where they
g o t it from, goodness knows. I think Roger Hevelle had
i t i n mind. He's very much of a character down there,
He was the head of Scripps previous t o York, He had the
multiple-college idea,
And by the way, don't think t h a t these colleges a r e
analogous t o the colleges i n Oxford and Cambridge. They
are analogous t o the s m a l l , l i b e r a l - a r t s college i n
America, which i s another story. The Cambridge and the
Oxford colleges are places where most of the faculty, I
guess a l l the f a c u l t y , are unmarried and l i v e i n , s o
t h a t i t ' s a very close kind of student-faculty set-up and
Pepper: has t o do w i t h a 10% c u l t u r a l development i n England.
b'evre not hitching an t o En:;land, we're hitching on t o
America. I t ' s Swarthmore, Kaverford, Carlton, Oberlin,
Colby -- t h a t ' s t h e kind of college t h a t I want to incor-
porate i n t o a b i a university. These small collez:es do an
excellent job of l i b e r a l arts. There is a considerable
amount of exchange be tween the professors and the students
because they are, 0h,1,500 t o 2,000, you see. The students
i n a class, four or f i v e hundred, mostly know each other,
So it's the incorporation of the American small college
in the American bii: university t h r ~ tw e hive i n mind.
Riess: But how do you do it?
Pepper: B e l l , now, t:iat is it.
T h i s multiple collc.~;eidea was a1rea:y i n f u l l swing
there, but those men down there had had very l i t t l e concep-
t i o n of the big university and of the i n t r i c a c i e s of the
organization -- ?remotions, graduate t o undergraduate staff
a r r a n ~ e n e n t s ,balance of departments, a l l t h a t t h i t ' s
involved.
Riess: This i d e a vas i n workiqi; p r a c t i c e a t Scripps, o r i n the
minds of these men?
Pepper: When tney were told they had t o expand, t h i s was the idea
that entered t h e i r minds. I don't know where they g o t i t
from. But I cane down there a n d found i t already going,
s o there was no need f o r any persuasion. The thing was to
adapt my ideas to t h e i r s and t h e i r s t o aine. And I must
confess t h a t m
y ideas t o becin with were colleges of
about 805. That is what is being planned by McHenry at
Santa Cruz colleges of about 500 t o 800.
--
Pepper: However, they persuaded me out of t h a t and I r a t h e r
think rightly. It's a matter of balance of the faculty,
r e a l l y . Also, i t has t o do with what's economical. From
the point of view of economy, because we don't want t h i s
experiment t o c o s t more than a monolithic u n i v e r s i t y would,
o r much more -- 8 l i t t l e more would be a l l r i g h t , but n o t
too much more, i t ' s a s t a t e e n t e r p r i s e , a f t e r a l l -- some-
where around1,500 per college seemed t o be the magic n u -
ber, f o r economy and balance and a l l that. They began
thinking i n these terms and they soon discovered t h a t i f
you're going t o have a university of 27,500 t h a t means a
good many colleges. So, we compromised a b i t on t h a t ;
now1,500 t o 2,000 is our college. That's q u i t e an insti-
tution, t h s t ' s as big as Dartmouth. However, Dartmouth
i s a big, small college.
Riess: How would i t be l a i d o u t physically?
Pepper: Physically would be r e l a t i v e l y easy.
Every student i n the u n i v e r s i t y belongs t o a college.
Riess; Which he e l e c t s ?
Pepper: Well, when the thing g e t s going undouktedly they w i l l apply
t o a college, but suppose some colleges a r e f u l l , l i k e
the f r a t e r n i t i e s or s o r o r i t i e s , the houses here? You apply
f o r a first ohoice, seaond choice, t h i r d choice. I think
you'd g e t them i n a t t h i r d ohoice a l l r i g h t anyway. The
s e l e c t i o n of the s t u d e n t s probably would be made by the
f a c u l t y of the house, o r by a committee of the f a c u l t y
of the house.
Hiess: W i l l the faculty of t h e house l i v e in?
Pepper: No, Unly one man l i v e s in, and perhaps one o r two others.
But only one man has to, and t h a t would be the head of the
house. H
e and h i s family would l i v e attached t o the
college complex. It would be q u i t e a complex.
Riess: Each college with its own "quad?"
Pepper: That's tne idea, The a r c h i t e c t has q u i t e imaginative i d e a s
f o r it, I t ' l l be physically s e t up s o t h a t y o u ' l l know
when you're going out of a college and when you're coming
i n t o a college,
Riess: That one f a c u l t y man f o r 1500 students sounds l i k e you
might as well have none.
Pepper: He is l i k e the king of England t o England, He's the host,
The thing of i t is, i n the American set-up y o u ' l l have a
l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t y persuading somebody t o l i v e i n a complex
l i k e that, The men want independent homes, W
e think we
can g e t twenty o r s o t o do so. But not everybody. Host
people l i k e t o l i v e i n t h e i r own homes, outside, I think
I would,
Riess: . You oould e a s i l y g e t new, young professors t o take it,
Pepper: But the trouble is t h i s i s t h e head of the house and I guess
he'd have t o be a f u l l professor. That's a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t ,
But we think we can g e t our number. That's one of the
things where I think McHenryts going t o have trouble.
When the whole university is going a t San Diego there would
only be about ten o r eleven of these houses. To f i n d ten
or eleven men doesn't seem f a n t a s t i c .
A t Santa Cruz -- and 1'11 h o w more about i t soon,
because McHenry's asked me around and I ' l l b e t I ' m on
t h e i r committee [ ~ a u ~ h i n ~ ]
they a r e heading f o r f i v e
--
Pepper: 	 o r s i x hundred, but no graduate students. I don't think
he's thought t h a t thing through. I don't know what he's
going t o do with the graduate school; t h a t ' s a very i n t e g r a l
part of our scheming a t San Uiego. [ ~ u r t h e rcomment on
the Santa Cruz campus is t o be found a t the end of t h i s
section. It was w r i t t e n a f t e r M
r
. Pepper's experience on
a committee t h a t took p a r t i n ohoosing the site.)
Riess: Graduate students a r e often married.
Pepper: Married students don't l i v e i n the houses. We're expecting
about two-thirds t o l i v e in, Remember, t h i s is a metro-
p o l i t a n area. We'd persuade them t o l i v e i n i f they could.
So we'd expect out of the 2,000 there would be something
l i k e 12 o r 13 hundred l i v i n g in. These include graduate
students, upper division, and lower division.
Riess: 	 The o t h e r seven hundred a r e s t i l l a l l i e d to a oollege?
Pepper: Every student is a l l i e d t o a o o l l e ~ e . There'd be no stu-
dent i n the u n i v e r s i t y t h a t i s n ' t attached t o eome college.
And with c e r t a i n exceptions -- such as the chancellor -
. every f a c u l t y man w i l l be attached t o a college.
There's where the gimmick oomes. As far as the student
s i d e goes, t h a t w i l l s e t t l e i t s e l f . W
e are recommending
t h a t these colleges t r y t o be d i f f e r e n t from each other,
if anything, t h a t they don't t r y to be the same. The
f a c u l t y of each college -- I'll t e l l you about the f a c u l t y
presently -- has the determination of the curriculum f o r
the college, the A.B. curriculum. The curriculum has t o
f a l l within the general University requirements f o r the
A.B. But t h a t leaves a l o t of leeway. It's g o t t o be an
Pepper: 	 A.B. t h a t would be accepted by any f i r s t - r a t e university
i n America. As these things develop, however, w
e expect
the different colleges t o get different flavors.
Riess: 	 Won't you have students vho are going t o be unhappy if
t h e i r major i n t e r e s t i s better taught i n a college they
a r e not in?
Pepper: Well, now, here's the gimmick. Let me explain. Every
college has its own faculty. The first thought is that
you divide the faculty as evenly as possible across the
colleges. But that doesn't work out f o r a number of
reasons: one is that, for example, an Oriental department
probably has only three men, and you can't distribute
three men i n twenty colleges. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
O r f i v e or s i x
or whatever. Then another thing w
e discovered -- you
vouldn't dream of t h i s -- is that there are certain deparf-
ments that a r e gregarious. Physicists don't l i k e t o be
alone. [ ~ a u g h t e r ] They have t o be i n groups. Philosophers
don't mind being alone; if you have twenty philosophers i n
the department you can put one philosopher i n each college.
But physicists have t o be i n groups of five or s i x orten.
So w
e compromised. Okay, h e r e 1 l l be a college with f i v e
physicists and another college w i t h none. However, the
college that has none w i l l have fire chemists, o r some-
thing l i k e that, you see, SO the distributions a r e not
even.
How, the important thing from the point of view of t h e
university as a whole is that these departments across the
board should be well-balanced. I think it's easy t o see
that i n history. If you're going to have an adequate
Pepper: 	 university department of history i t must have men that
cover the whole h i s t o r i c a l period from the Egyptian to
the present moment. And territory-wise the Asiatic, the
African history. So you need a l o t of persons f o r a well-
balanced department. You can' t expect the colleges to
take care of that because first of a l l an adequate history
department i n a university l i k e t h i s probably would have
to be about forty, at least.
So, there's the administration of the college, with
the college faculty, and then there's the university
faculty which is organized p r e t t y auch as we a r e here.
They have a university department chair-, and it's h i s
particular job t o see that it's well-balanced. Mow, these
fellows are distributed a l l over the place. There are
sub-chairmen who a r e the heads of the departments i n the
colleges. For instance, college A has five historians.
They w i l l have a chairman, probably t h e i r o m selection,
and hets a sub-chairman of the university department of
history. The university department of history is oriented
particularly r e a l l y f o r adequate Ph. B
. s
. You're thinking
of the graduate student very largely i n g e t t i n g a well-
Uanced department. The g i s t of it, when you begin t o
think i t through -- and it's s o r t of amazing t o m
e -- is
t h a t the university department is primarily a graduate
department, and the college departments are undergraduate
departments. It works out that way.
Riess: 	 And the members of the university department are the same
men who a r e spread among the colleges.
Pepper: 	 Yes, they're a l l the same men. But the university department
Pepper: 	 chairman is thinking of the graduate student. The sub-
chairmen a r e thinking then of the undergraduate student,
the college student i n h i s college.
Riess: 	 Where do the graduate students l i v i n g i n the colleges
take t h e i r classes?
Pepper: It would be advisable, but not required, t h a t the graduate
students l i v i n g i n a college should be i n the college of
t h e i r graduate advisor. That's all. What ve think is
t h a t it's awfully good f o r the undergraduates t o rub up
with the graduates. And there's no reason why the
graduate students shouldn't be attached t o a college.
They g e t much b e t t e r l i v i n g quarters there.
Furthermore, f o r example, San Diego is going t o g e t
a medical school. A l l of the medical students w i l l -be
i n one college. But there a r e only about 300 medical
students i n a big medical college. And t h i s is going
t o be colleges of 2,000. So the college'that has the
medical students would immediately g e t a medical flavor,
you see, and they probably would be weighted with biolo-
g i s t s there. That's fine, that v i l l be a s p e c i a l kind
of a thing.
But the big gimmick w a s the i n t e r r e l a t i o n between
the university departments and the college departments
and working out about appointments and promotions. That's
very, very inportant. The appointments and promotions
can be instigated e i t h e r by the chairman of the college
or by the chairman of a department. Here they're a l l
i n s t i g a t e d by the chairman of the department.
Riess: 	 The sub-chairman, i n the college, would i n s t i g a t e them
f o r the men i n h i s college department?
Pepper: 	 Not necessarily. As a matter of f a c t , the chairaan of the
department, being the superior o f f i c e r , has higher juris-
diction. But the point is, the subchairman can i n s t i g a t e ,
and i f he does i t must be c a r r i e d through, even though the
chairman of the department disapproves.
W
e have t h a t kind of thing here, too, by the way. That
is, the chairman of a department may propose a f o r pro-
motion which a dean opposes. That opposition makes the man's
chance r e l a t i v e l y low, though it's not decisive s i n c e there
is the Budget Committee to go through and there's the
chancellor, Even though the dean may be against i t i t may
s t i l l go through if everybody e l s e is f o r it. But t h a t is,
i n a c e r t a i n way, technical. The only thing is t o assure
the chairman of t h e department that he wontt be shut off
anywhere along the line. His recommendations w i l l go
through up t o the highest boards.
, 	 If you ~ u s t
make t h i s modification f o r the sub-chairmen
who have a semi-autonomy i n this thing, the running of the
university departments is j u s t exactly l i k e Qurs here.
They'll be j u s t as eager t o be excellent as ours a r e here.
That's one of the g r e a t things here; the r i v a l r y of
departments t o be the best i n t h e i r l i n e is what has made
these wonderful graduate schools,
Riess: 	 There w i l l be a r i v a l r y of colleges and of departments,
both,
Pepper: 	 The thing is, i n a monolithic university the poor old
undergraduates g e t seoond place. Vhat they're up t o is
Pepper: t o make graduate departments and s c h o l a r l y staff t h a t w i l l
be noticed the world round.
Riess: Here a t Berkeley.
Pepper: yes. And then we do on the s i d e as well as we can f o r t h e
undergraduates. [~aughter] That's exaggerating,
This San Diego scheme means you've g o t an i n t e g r a t e d
c o l l e g e t h a t is going t o do its damndest for the undergrad-
u a t e s too. This was the most d i f f i c u l t g i m i c k , but you
see how e a s i l y i t was solved when you g e t the idea? So,
i n t h i s multiple-college set-up you a r e now guaranteeing
j u s t as much i n t e r e s t in the balance and the scholarship
of the department as we have here.
Mow, we turn t o the colleges.
Riess: There is no such thing as the college of l e t t e r s and science?
Pepper: No. And there is a very i n t e r e s t i n g thing. It eliminates
the college of l e t t e r s and science and t h e dean of l e t t e r s
and science and a l l the way down the l i n e . What those
people do is r e d i s t r i b u t e d . It's taken up p a r t l y by the
!chairmen of the u n i v e r s i t y departments but mostly by the
administration of t h e colleges.
Riess: That f a c u l t y person who is l i v i n g i n the colleges?
Pepper: No, it's a l i t t l e more complicated than that. This fellow
who is the head of the college has no academic authority.
He is the domestic head, s o t o speak, and making him a
l i t t l e analogous t o the king of England is n o t so bad,
Riess: He'll teech?
Pepper: He'll be a member of the f a c u l t y and h e ' l l teach, bat prob-
ably not much because he has SO much e l s e t o do. But he's
Pepper: 	 not an academic head of any kind. He does, however, have
charge of the distribution of space, and I guess t h a t gives
him a kind of authority t h a t is p r e t t y important.
Now, i n these colleges a r e not only the dormitory and
the lounging rooms, small l i b r a r y set-ups and a l l t h i s kind
of thing, and eating areas, but there a r e classrooms, And
you have just as much instruction given i n the college as
you possibly can, W
e expect t h a t practically a l l the lower-
division classes w i l l be taught i n the college, The class-
rooms w i l l be small. There is a central library; these
colleges are set around kind of i n a c i r c l e , and i n the
middle is the main library. However, tne required reading
f o r the various aourses probably can be distributed i n the
sublibraries,
Riess: 	 If a student came here wanting t o major i n Bnglish would i t
be obvious t o him which would be the best college f o r him
t o apply to?
Pepp e r : 	Not necessarily. But some of these colleges wauld probably
be stronger in science than others, s o he would tend to
'choose one t h a t ' s more liberal.
Riess: 	 He would look to see which men were a f f i l i a t e a with which
college?
Pepper: 	 Probably. Theore t i c a l l y i t shouldn' t make too much differ-
ence i n English, but suppose he does.
Riess: 	 Well, periods of English. S p e c i a l i s t s i n h i s interest.
Pepper: 	 An udergraduate student who comes here doesn't know muah
about what he wants. And he night g e t into something t o t a l l y
d i f f e r e n t l a t e r .
Riess: 	 Would i t oe easy f o r him to svitoh colleges? Transfer?
Pepper: 	 He can switch, but we would encourage a s t u d e n t t o s t i c k .
The c o l l e g e with the medical school i n i t 1 think proba-
b l y w i l l get a s c i e n t i f i c tone, a l l r i g h t . But t h a t ' s the
exception. There's a l s o an engineering college, but those
a r e exceptional. Most of these colleges have a s t r o n g
l i b e r a l arts set-up on the undergraduate side. The gradu-
ates, w e think, take c a r e of themselves because t h e y ' l l
have t h e i r graduate advisor, t h e i r seminars. They'll move
more or l e s s loosely over t h e campus as they need to. But
it's the undergraduates t h a t we're thinking of now, i n the
colleges mainly. And the colleges w i l l have t h e i r d i f f e r e d
tones, and w
e expect t h e r e ' l l be choices a l l r i g h t , when
they g e t going, and when the character of the d i f f e r e n t
colleges begins t o be f e l t .
Riess: 	 How many English department men might there be within one
college?
Pepper: 	 The English department w i l l be huge, of course. W
h
y here
it's nearly 100. So i t w i l l be about ten t o a college. So
i n English i t ' s easy. And the 16wer-division courses w i l l
c e r t a i n l y be taken c a r e of. I mean, what would be English
1.A-B w i l l be i n every college. History 4A-B, History 8A-B
w i l l be taught i n every college. Huge department. Philos-
ophy n o t necessarily, but as I say, philosophers a r e w i l l i n g
t o be alone, and presumably you'd have twenty philosophers
i n a huge university l i k e that. The big lower-division
courses w i l l be given i n r e l a t i v e l y s m a l l s e c t i o n s i n
every one of the colleges. It's when you get t o the upper-
division t h a t you're going t o begin t o have t o do some
s p l i t t i n g .
Riessr How does t h i s f i t with your conviction t h a t a good, big
man i n a big leoture is worth the many mediocre men i n
small classes?
Pepper: Well, now, I think there's a l i t t l e compromising happening
here. W
e do have some b i g l e c t u r e h a l l s I n the middle.
And i t may be t h a t some courses w i l l be given, big lectures,
i n t h a t way, i n a c e n t r a l l e c t u r e hall. We're compromising
on that.
Riess: Would each college have its own student self-government?
Pepperr Each one would have its own. Absolutely. The colleges
are semi-autonomous.
Riess: So there's no reason why you'd even meet somebody from
another callege except perhaps a t a b i g lecture, o r i n the
library?
Pepper: No, but you probably would. Oh, by the w a y , t h e y ' l l a l l
co-educational. And [laughing], the funny thing is t h a t
the grass on the other s i d e of the fence often seems b e t t e r
than t h a t on your own side. So I think the students proba-
b l y w i l l meet. But the idea is t o maintain tne small
college feeling, p a r t i c u l a r l y in the eating-in. Personally,
I would have them a l l charged for t h e i r board a t the begin-
ning s o t h a t the cheapest way t o eat is t o eat in. I think
t h a t would ensure that. [~ a u ~ h t e r ]
Riess: Vould there be any organization across colleges on a c l a s s
level?
Pepper: No, and w
e a r e hoping t h a t there w i l l be no v a r s i t y teams.
There w i l l be college teams s o t h a t there v i l l be intra-
university inter-college a t h l e t i c s , and no inter-university
a t h l e t i c s , though I don't knov whether we can. There are
no alumni now t o bother u s about that.
Riess: What stage is t h i s plan in? 

Pepper: Oh, there is nothing ere now except a graduate soh001 at 

Scripps.
Riess: I meant the plans of your committee which you a r e describing.
Pepper: Just the regents have to look a t it. And i t goes before the
regents -- it's going to be quite exciting -- and it's going
t o be presented t o the regents on Thursday [17 May 19621.
And I t u going to be there. [ ~ u t
the question of terminating
coupulsory military training occupied t h a t whole regents
u ,eting and the San Diego question was postponed. SCP]
Riess: 	 I hope i t a l l happens, or we'll hsve t o have another tape!
[~augil
ter]
Pepper: 	 Well, if i t doesntthappen we'll have another tape, but
r e a l l y I don't think there's much c h a c e of a need for it.
The enthusinsm and the v i t a l i t y of the faculty there, ~ o r k ' s
enthusiasm -- everybody's excited. And when the president's
s e c r e t ~ r y
is excited -- Pou see, I &&thereda l l t h i s s t u f f
togcther a n d I mude out the first d r a f t of i t , though of
course there u ~ s
a good deal of revision efterwsrds, but
when the first draft ceme i n she was s o excited, which
just indicated other people must have been too, that I saw
everything wcs doing e l l right. It reslly is exciting.
Riess: 	 How w i l l the academic sen~tef i t into t h i s system?
Pepper: 	 T h e r e f l l be a
r
. aczdemic senate which w i l l be organized off
the university departments. There'll be no college of
l e t t e r s and science but t h e r e ' l l be a graduate council;
and u university budget committee. The only thing t h a t
is l e f t out is the college of l e t t e r s end science. And
Pepper: 	 t h a t is taken over by the f a c u l t i e s of the colleges who,
by the way, w i l l have t h e i r own conunittees, and the most
important committee f o r them w i l l be t h e i r curriculum com-
mittee because they can s e l e c t t h e i r own curriculum, subjec
t o the general university requirements,
Riess: 	 'Fhe department men, though, w i l l be chosen through the
department structure.
Pepper: Well, we'll have t o see how t h i s works. Let's suppose
t h a t an English professor i n College B r e t i r e s . How, when
a man r e t i r e s l i k e t h i s , o r perhaps is c a l l e d away to
another university, there is no presumption t h a t he w i l l
be re2laced i n t h a t college. The whole university balance
comes in. That college may, as a matter of f a c t , i n rela-
t i o n t o some of the other colleges, have a s l i g h t excess
of English professors, you see. Now, undoubtedly t h e col-
lege would raise a big fuss, which is t h e i r privilege.
This is j u s t human. To be deprived of o n e m [ F u l l Time
~ r n ~ l o ~ e e ]
r a i s e s a big fuss. No department chairman is
doing h i s job i f he doesn't f u s s when an FTE is takea
away, s o undoubtedly a college w i l l fuss, which is q u i t e
proper. But i t should be up t o the university a u t h o r i t i e s
t o convince them of the need of other colleges for t h i s
man more. I think those things w i l l a d j u s t , as they do
here.
The harmony of the university doesn't necessarily by
any means mean t h a t people are submissive. Q u i t e the oppo-
s i t e . A good chairman is a man who presses h i s budget as
hard as he can. They don' t a l l r e a l i z e that. H
e asks f o r
everything t h a t the department needs, within reason, even
Pepper:
II
i
i Riess:
!
Pepper:
Riess:
though he knows p e r f e c t l y well the university can't possibly
a f f o r d to give i t , but t h a t ' s not h i s affair. It's up t o
t h e budget committee and then from them on t o t h e administra-
t i o n t o decide what he can have. But he should ask f o r
everything t h a t he thinks he needs. If anybody takes any-
thing from him he ought t o mke a b i g fuss. That's a l l
understood up here; we've g o t a very good morale on that.
You never g e t everything you ask for. We're a l l good
f r i e n d s and we have g r e a t confidenoe i n the Budget Committee
but t h a t doesn't mean t h a t we dont t make a l l the f u s s t h a t
we can t o g e t what we can. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
I f you're a depart~centchairman a t San Diego, who w i l l you
f u s s to?
Well, as it's organized here the philosophy department is
i n the College of Letters and Science. Our immediate
superior i s the dean of the College of L e t t e r s and Science.
W
e make our f u s s t o him. As a matter of fact, however, he
doesn't deal with the f u s s primarily. He passes the f u s s
on t o the Budget Committee, probably making h i s recoamenda-
t i o n along the way. Then the Budget Committee sends i n its
confidential statement t o him. Now, he may o r may not
agree with them, but there's one other man t o consider,
and t h a t ' s the chancellor. However, t o make your fuss
you make an appointment with the dean. O r , if you r e a l l y
think something has gone wrong here and a r e serious about
i t y o u t l l go r i g h t over h i s head, t o the chancellor. And
t h a t ' s perfectly allowable here. But you never go t o the
Budget Committee directly.
And how w i l l you f u s s a t San Diego?
Pepper: To the dean of the graduate school. The graduate dean is
the man.
Riess: Everybody would f u s s t o him, medical school people too?
Pepper: Well, the funny thing here [UCB] is t h a t nobody fusses to
the graduate dean. That i s r e a l l y strange. The only
fusses of the kind we're' talking about t h a t come t o him
a r e from the graduate schools. W
e have It here [UCSD]
t h a t the schools and the departments a l l fuss t o the
graduate dean. He's a very important o f f i c e r i n t h i s organ-
ization. It's more reasonable. He's the only dean of t h i s
kind. But the university department chairmen a r e very
important officers. We, I think, at UCSD, have eliminated
one s t e p i n the machinery of UCB s o I think it's r e a l l y
simpler down there, i n s p i t e of a l l those colleges.
You were asking about a student down there. A student
comes i n , he makes h i s choice, and perhaps he g e t s second
choice. Then he goes t o college, and he thinks he's going
t o naaor i n English; he thinks he is, though perhaps i t
ends up he i s n ' t . Now, the college i s s m a l l enough s o
,
t h a t i t can undoubtedly on its own behalf -- i t has its
own ways of doing t h i s -- have a p r e t t y good student advi-
sory system. See, there a r e enough men there s o the
freshman student's curriculum w i l l be looked over.
Lets, t o make t h i s r e a l l y d i f f i c u l t , suppose t h i s
student thinks he's going t o major i n Greek. Now, there
won't be many Greek professors. Incidentally, then, the
student c e r t a i n l y should pick out a college t h a t has a
Greek professor i n it.
Riess: And he would have no trouble g e t t i n g i n t o t h a t college.
Pepper: Oh, they'd be t i c k l e d t o g e t a Greek student. Oriental
departments the same way. However, l e t ' s suppose the
English s t u d e n t i n h i s t h i r d year decides t o go i n t o Greek.
He can t r a n s f e r , but m
y guess is t h a t he would have a l l
h i s f r i e n d s i n h i s o r i g i n a l college and he wouldntt want
t o transfer. So, here he is i n College B, and the Greek
professors a r e i n College D and College E: he would go
over t o College D and College E f o r classes, and f o r advice.
Wherever s p e c i a l i s t s a r e giving most of the upper d i v i s i o n
courses n o t given i n the college of the student, he would
go over t o the other college. But a l l the smaller class-
rooms are i n the college.
There would be a few c e n t r a l classrooms, and there
would be q u i t e a number of c e n t r a l laboratories, and t h a t
includes the art laboratories, probably. That's a matter
of experience, but I j u s t can see already t h a t probably
most of the laboratory research and things w i l l have t o
go on i n a c e n t r a l place. But t h e r e t s no reason why,
l e t ' s say, i f it's a big chemistry course, those uan't
be divided i n t o laboratory s e c t i o n s i n each of the col-
leges. And the same with physics, even though there may
not be a p h y s i c i s t i n the college; i f ten physics profes-
s o r s vant t o f l o c k together i n College B, they've g o t t o
give physics, nevertheless [ laughing], i n College A,
Riess: So they have t o t r o t over and do something about it.
Pepper: Yes.
Riess: You t a l k about College B and College A. Are there names
proposed?
Pepper: Yes. Oh, there we've had a big discussion about t h a t .
Pepper: 	 The o r i g i n a l idea of Roger Revelle was t h a t these colleges
would be specialized along s c i e n t i f i c a d departmental
lines. But I was opposed t o t h a t r i g h t from the beginning,
and i t didn't require much opposing. W
e do encourage dif-
f e r e n t i a t i o n , per se, but not i n terms of specialties.
Consequently, the colleges w i l l not be named, f o r instance,
Darwin College o r Newton College, but maybe a Leonardo da
Vinci, o r Socrates, names t h a t don't s i g n i f y any s p e c i a l t y
[laughter]. Well, of course, t h e y ' l l probably be named
Smith College and Jones College, f o r Smith and Jones who
a r e past presidents o r something or other i n the univer-
sity. There '11 be a York College.
Riess: 	 More about the government of the colleges?
Pepper: 	 Everything t h a t has t o do with housekeeping, housing and
space, the oversight of the kitchen business other than
the d e t a i l s (probably t h e y ' l l run the dining rooms as they
do here -- t h e y ' l l have a c e n t r a l ) , the man responsible t o
see t h a t a l l t h i s is done is the college head. But he has
nothing other than the d i s t r i b u t i o n of space, dormitory
t
and classroomwise, as I remember. He may g e t some other
duties, 	but j u s t now t h a t ' s a l l he has.
Riess: 	 But there must be other governing needs.
Pepper: 	 The teaching faculty of the college does the r e s t . They
w i l l e l e c t t h e i r own faculty head, whatever they want t o
c a l l him -- *convenern was suggested -- he won't be a
dean and he won't be a chairman. (We've g o t t o g e t another
name. ) And h i s p a r t i c u l a r job w i l l be to c a l l the f a c u l t y
meetings and see t h a t the faculty committees a r e function-
ing properly. Except t h a t it's obvious t h a t you must have
Pepper: whatever t h i s is, t h i s "convener," and you have t o have
a curriculum committee, and undoubtedly t h e y ' l l f i n d they
need some other committees. I t w i l l be up t o the colleges,
up t o the college f a c u l t y t o do t h e i r own organization.
Riess: So they might be d i f f e r e n t l y organized?
Pepper: As one of the men of the advisory committee remarked on
someone saying, "They'll organize, and if they f i n d that
it's good i t ' l l be taken up by another college," t h i s
fellow remarked, "And i t ' l l be taken up by the other college
even i f it's badew [ ~ a u g h t e r ] This is very witty because
it's very l i k e l y t o be the case. It's j u s t d e v i l i s h t o
change a bad habit, you know.
I think you've got the main things out of t h i s now.
It's a l l systematized and a l l plotted as t o the l i n e s of
administration s o t h a t i t looks to m
e t o be p r e t t y clean-
cut. But there was a l o t of adjustment of functions t o
think about. This took most of the first p a r t of t h e year,
the first term, g e t t i n g t h i s thing going.
Recruitment
Pepper: The other thing we've been doing down there is devising a
means o f r e c r u i t i n g . That w a s , 1 think; our primary job
when w e were first appointed. And some very i n t e r e s t i n g
things have turned out there, The Scripps people i n s t i -
tuted a new method of r e c r u i t i n g which I think never
worked before and 1 doubt if i t would work under any o t h e r
conditions tiian theirs. They a r e s t a r t i n g the university
Pepper: with regard t o the sciences from the graduate school down.
They could do t h a t because the Scripps I n s t i t u t e was a
graduate research i n sti t u t ion. And they have expanded and
brought i n a considerable number of e x t r a p h y s i c i s t s and
b i o l o g i s t s , a l l men of good standing doing graduate work.
The only s t u d e n t s they have down there a r e graduate stu-
dents -- but they have about a hundred.
Then they were expecting t o begin t o filter i n under-
graduates, freshmen and juniors, when they g o t the grad-
u a t e school well going. They thought, "This is wonderful,"
-- and i t is, it's working f i n e f o r them -- " l e t ' s do the
same thing f o r the humanities." Well, I had a kind of a
feeling, as soon as I went there, t h a t t h a t wouldn't work
with the humanities, and t h e reason Is t h i s : i n the bio-
l o g i c a l and physical sciences there is what amounts t o an
apprentice system; as soon as a studeat has passed h i s
qualifying examinations, the major job he has t o do f o r
h i s Ph.D. is an experimental t h e s i s under one .of the big
men i n the department. If t h i s b i g man i n the department
moves from Chicago t o San Diego the student goes with him.
H ~ t u r a l l y ,what e l s e would he do? Probably three o r four
o r a dozen students a l l follow along with him. Consequent-
l y , when they d r a f t e d these new 25 o r 30 men the graduate
students followed with them. [ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]
So they had a
f i r s t - r a t e graduate school.
That doesn't happen i n t i e humanities. I n f a c t , i n
order t o have a t h e s i s , though generally there is one man
advising it, even one man i s n ' t enough; the student wants
t o consult with others. h r t h e r m o r e , when i t comes t o
Pepper: judging the thesis, absolutely that one mctn is not enough;
you judge i t with f i v e men. So i n s o c i a l sciences and
humanities, with one exception, you can't j u s t start with
graduate students. The exception is anthropology. That
department a c t s l i k e a n a t u r a l science, and I think they
a r e going to g e t a very good anthropologist there who'll
bring a t r a i n of graduate students a f t e r him. But t h a t ' s
the only s o c i a l science department that does that.
It became obvious -- and t h i s came out from man a f t e r
man who came and consulted v i t h us -- t h a t we have t o
start with the undergraduates. Also i t turned out t h a t
we'd b e t t e r start with both juniors and freshmen because
while it's nice to give lower division courses, a man
wants t o give some courses i n h i s specialty. So, we'll
take i n junior college transfers. Furthermore -- t h i s
is something t h a t w
e discovered i n the humanities -- a
bright senior seminar can be more exciting than a medi-
ocre graduate seminar. T h i s would be p a r t i c u l a r l y the
. case at S m Diego f o r sGme time because they're not going
t o a t t r a c t the best graduate students i n s o c i a l sciences
and humanities there f o r quite a while. The b e s t gradu-
a t e students w i l l be those of t h e i r own making whom they
hold. The senior seminar is l i k e l y almost inevitably to
be the most exciting thing t h e y ' l l have. And, inciden-
tally, i f there's no graduate seminar t o kind of take
the wind out of t h e i r sails, that they f e e l i n f e r i o r
about, they are the top seminar and that gives them a
b o ~ ~ s t .We've heard from several sourczs that humanities
and s o c i a l science men w i l l be very happy with a good
Pepper: 	 bunch of seniors as a substitute f o r graduate students.
And some of these w i l l go on and betheir graduate stu-
dents. So t h i s is what they're doing.
Well, now, how then do you g e t these men? These a r e
the s o r t of men we want t o get, but where do we g e t them
and now? That again took quite a l i t t l e working over.
And you could only do what we did i n t h i s particular
university system. What we've done is t h i s : suppose we
want to g e t at l e a s t one man i n English to start the
department. W
e proceed to choose a group of men who
know the University as a whole very well and a r e special-
ists of reputation i n English. W
e decided that Henry
Nash Smith, then chairman of English a t Berkeley, would
be the man t o be the chairman of such an appointment
committee. So York writes up to him and asks him i f
he'd serve and t e l l s him how important i t is and asks
him to s e l e c t a committee to include one of the UCSD
men, whom he designates. Well, Henry l a s h Smith, whom
do you think he chooses? He chooses Schorer and John
Raleigh, who were then the vice-chairmen of English --
t h a t is, the three administrative o f f i c e r s of the depart-
ment, he r e a l l y takes It seriously, !They canvass the
f i e l d , and the man down there comes up a couple of times
f o r meetings, and then they send i n a list of names with
first, second, t h i r d crioice a t the top of the list.
Riess: A l i s t of men who a r e presently teaching a l l around?
Pepper: Yes, O f course, they don't choose t h e i r own, they keep
away from the University of California; though they don't
have to, but they have s o far. And because t h i s is hunting
f o r top men t o start the department going and to be chair-
man f o r a while the candidates have t o be men of reputation,
Also, they have t o be available. There a r e plenty of men
with a reputation who you just know can't be dislodged,
and you dontt put those down, But the appointment commit-
t e e men know, they're recruiting f o r t h e i r awn departments
too, you see, Suppose they made m
e chairman of an appoint-
ment committee f o r philosophy, I already know j u s t about
what the f i e l d is. It would take j u s t a l i t t l e work on
my part, and if I chose a couple of other men out of the
department the three of us together would know the l a y
of the land very, very well. If w e didn't q u i t e know i t
we'd write around a b i t . That's the vay we do a l l our
recruking,
Riesst Then what does San Diego do with this list?
Pepper: The f i r s t thing they do is t o pass i t through t h e i r own
budget committee and then, of course, i t comes back t o York.
Riess: who's on the budget committee? Scripps s c i e n t i s t s ?
Pepper: Yes. If they approve, York writes the fellow an i n v i t a t i o n
and w e wait 2nd hope i t w i l l be favorable. A s a matter of
f a c t , up t o t h i s moment we've had i o d e f i n i t e appointments
made, though I ' m two or three weeks behind on information
[15 May 19621. But we have s e n t out several invitations,
W
e can't g e t more than s i x men and we're r e a l l y allowed
four f o r t h i s year. Now, these men w i l l have no teaching
u n t i l 1965. That's the idea,
Riess: So t h i s might be very unattractive t o them.
Pepper: Well, i t might be very a t t r a c t i v e ii they're doing a piece
Pepper: 	 of research and want t o complete that. A l l they'd have t o
do -- and of course t h a t ' s going t o take some time -- is
t o be a l i v e t o the r e c r u i t i n g problem, and probably to
serve on the budget committee o r the educational policy
committee -- something t h e y ' l l be put on -- but r e l a t i v e l y
t h e y ' l l have a p r e t t y f r e e time. So t h a t they've r e a l l y
g o t a sinecure, except for the lack of a l i b r a r y , which is
some lack. However, there's UCLA and they're s e r i o u s l y
thinking of a h e l i copter f o r f a c u l t y use.
Riess: 	 How f a s t is i t a l l going up?
Pepper: 	 They're arranging f o r 300 undergraduate students i n 1965,
maybe more, And they m y even start i n 1964; t h e r e ' s
pressure from the president on the chancellor t o do so,
but I don't s e e how they can do it. There's an engineer-
i n g collede going up, and t h a t rnay turn out t o be a n in-
dependent college and a maverick according t o t h i s set-up.
That building is going up now. But I saw the a r c h i t e c t
t h e r e and he's making an o v e r a l l plan f o r ten o r twelve
c o l l e g e s and as soon as the coming regents meeting is
over and it's favorably passed on I think h e ' l l be making
h i s plans f o r the first regular college. It's supposed
t o be up i n 1965.
Riess: 	 Are you with t h i s committee i n d e f i n i t e l y ?
Pepper: 	 I don't know. Lynn White of our advisory committee, who
has been chairman of the All-University Educational
Policy Committee f o r two o r three years, which is a
tough one, s a i d t h a t he's g e t t i n g o f f of t h a t one now
and he'd l i k e t o be relieved a l l along the l i n e , t h a t he
thoueht he'd done h i s duty. You don't want t o start a
Pepper: 	 new committee, s o we a r e a standby committee. I ' m apparently
s t i l l i n the s t a t e of a consultant. 1 think it's l e f t t h a t
any time York wants me t o come down h e ' l l phone o r write m
e
a l e t t e r and I'll go down,
. -
Riess: 	 And then Santa Cruz.
Pepper: 	 They've asked me to come i n t o look at t h e i r plans next
Tuesday [22 May 19621, so I guess I may be involved there,
which w i l l be fun.
Riess: 	 Sounds l i k e you need a sabbatical from committees.
Pepper: 	 This s o r t of thing is j u s t fun. I can't do m
y metaphysics
a l l day long. For one thing, you run i n t o a problem, as I
did two weeks ago where i t j u s t looked as though I had g o t
up i n t o a blind alley. What the devil was I going t o do?
Well, I do a l o t of thinking i n my sleep, apparently. I
had a very r e s t l e s s time the f i r s t p a r t of the night and
then I went t o s l e e p soundly and woke up about eight and
sat down to write and the problem vas solved. [ ~ a u g h t e r ]
A t least the thing t h a t was bothering me was solved. You
want to be doing something e l s e vhen you run up one of
those alleys. These committee things, administration,
j u s t that much and no more has been a l i f e l i f t e r .
Santa Cruz Campus Site*
Pepper: 	 You ask me t o say something about my first involvement
with the Santa Cruz Campus. This developed from President
Kerr putting me on an administrative committee of three -
*This section vas written out by M
r
. Pepper a t a date
several months a f t e r the interviews, according t o the
request of the interviewer.
Pepper: the other two being Walter Horn and B i l l Wurster, the
l a t t e r chairman -- t o advise on the location of a new
northern campus. The president's a s s i s t a n t , E a r l Bolton,
joined us as chauffeur and a l s o as one familiar with the
s t a t i s t i c s and p o l i t i c a l and f i n a n c i a l d e t a i l s involved
i n the various sites. W
e v i s i t e d s e v e r a l sites. But the
main choice soon concentrated upon Almaden, near San Jose,
and the Cowell property at Santa Cruz, both towns were
eager f o r the new branch. W
e saw a number of the l o c a l
town o f f i c e r s i n both places, who t a c t f u l l y and w i d y d i d
n o t t r y t o accompany us on our t o u r s o r even t o pressure
us except i n the most general way t o express g r e a t eager-
ness f o r a favorable decision.
The Aluaden s i t e w a s a t t r a c t i v e -- i n a f e r t i l e valley
formed by a high portion of the Coast Range. But the
Santa Cruz s i t e was spectacular -- on an elevation above
t h e s e a with an extended horizon a c r o s s t o the Monterey
Peninsula and sweeping 180 degrees north, and the high
Coast Range behind and slopes of redwood f o r e s t t h a t would
belong t o the campus. Though i n both instances the land
would be p r a c t i c a l l y donated t o t h e University, the Santa
Cruz g i f t would be i n one parcel. The Almaden s i t e
eovered many s n a l l parcels and some land-owners were
threatening r e s i s t a n c e and s u i t s . But, on the other
s i d e , Almaden was i n the midst of a populated d i s t r i c t
and easy of access f o r aommuters, while S a n t a Cruz was
across the range and a t least 45 minutes f u r t h e r away
i n driving t i m e from the commuting a r e a s of San Francisco
Bay,
Pepper: Actually, though we weighed a l l considerations, our
choice went from the beginning strongly towards Santa Cruz,
p a r t i c u l a r l y on account of its g r e a t scenic beauty. Our
l i t t l e committee drove and walked over a l o t of the Santa
Cruz s i t e on two occasions, and the more we s a w i t the less
we could oonceive ourselves preferring the Almaden s i t e .
That is e s s e n t i a l l y the simple story. O f course, a l l
three men on the committee were deeply s e n s i t i v e t o aes-
t h e t i c values. They were the heavily determining ones i n
t h i s instance. And so, Z suppose, i t seemed reasonable
t o the other two t o ask m
e to write the report t o the
president, which I did. And something of a l y r i c mood
went i n t o the description of the Santa Cruz s i t e . Walter
and B i i l thought i t good -- i n f a c t , they were much
pleased. And s o i t went t o Clark Kerr, and apparently i t
persuaded the regents. I l i k e t o believe t h a t here was a
big choice by a group of exceedingly p r a c t i c a l men t h a t
was made primarily on a e s t h e t i c grounds -- because of the
g r e a t beauty of the place.
Trans: L
W & SR
Typed: SR & LW
APPENDICES 

APPENDIX A 

A Brief Historical Aooount
of the Berkeley Art Department
The origina of the Berkeley A r t Department, as with most
such departments i
n Amerioan universities, are found in
various services to other subjects. If one goea back to the
University of California Prospectus (ae it was called) of 1869
when the institution had just received its distinctive charter
from the State, one finds a course in free-hand drawing re-
quired of all freshmen and juniors in the curriculum for
Agriculture. Thia was the model curriculum for the whole
institution at that time, appeming prominently at the begin-
ning of the Prospectus. We may assume that nearly all stu-
dents in that period had this course. By 1876-7 we find
free-hand drawing required the first year, free-hand and
industrial the second, and industrial drawing the third,
In 1885-6 these oourses become transformed into a department
of Drawing and Mapping including a course given by Herman
Kower, the department chairman, aalled Instrumental D r a w i n g
and Descriptive Geometry prescribed for etudente in the
College of Yeohanice, Mining, Civil Engineering and Agri-
culture, Instruotion here was in the drawing of simple
patterns and deaoriptive geometry in ite application to per-
spective, Free drawing had entirely dieappeared, But in
1892-4 a course in "free-hand drawing and element6 of designw
reappeared given by one hank Gelett Burgess -- apparently
as an eleotive.
Then in 1894-5 we find the drawing department renamed as
the Department of Drawing and Decorative Art, Herman Kower,
C,E,, Aseistant Professor of Industrial Drawing, is still
head, but a new type of man, Henry T. Ardley, S,A., had been
added as Associate Professor of Industrial and Decorative
Art. Kower continued with hi8 oourses in mechanical drawing
but we find Araley offering eomething new: drawing from
aaste in crayon and charcoal, Brushwork, Architectural Free-
hand Drawing, Landscape, and a course in Decorative and
Industrial Deaign being history of decorative and applied
design including architectural decorationma
Three years later, 1897-8, w
e are pleasea t o find that
Ardley i s being assisted by three other men, and appointed
the head of the Department, Kower has separated from thie
group and bas a department of his own oalled Industrial Draw-
ing and Bngineering Design, But the astonishing thing i s to
discover Ardley and his ataff offering 22 oouraee in a wide
varlety of techniques including wood carving, and clay
modeling, and (a startling innovation) a l i f e class, though
f o r graduates only. There was a lecture course in Ancient
A r t and Historic Ornment and eevera2 other such history
courses, Ardley must have been a man of unusual energy,
judgment, and persuasion t o have created a departnent of
this scope including graduate studies, a l l within a perlod
of three years. I believe it i s something of an anomaly.
But it a i d not l a s t long. B
y 1900-01 Ardley had resigned,
and we find the same practical Kower head of a department now
named Drawing and Engineering Design. There are only 13
oourses in this department, all connected wlth engineer-
including one i n Sewer Design. 'Ehere is a half year i n ele-
mentary Free-hand Drawing, a oourse i n Free-hand Lettering
and Round Writing, a course in Perspective Drawing and one
in Architecture. These l a s t two taught by a man predestined
to beoome famous later, Bernard Maybeck,
\
Next ye=, 1901-02, i s the same except that now Maybeck's
c k s e i n Architecture has turned into a one-man Department
of Architecture. So it stayed, but i n 1905-04 Maybeck's
name disappeared from the oatalogue and a new man of coming
prominence, John Galen Howard, is the one-man head of this
department. What drama apeah up from these dry listings
of men and courses and departments1
The Depwtment of Architecture i n time grew into a School
of Architecture and here alone for many years i a t o be found
. what l i t t l e activity there wae i n painting mdeculpture, It
was oarried on first by architects, But in 1906-7 E. Earle
Cummings was appointed Instmotor in Sculpture for a single
course i n the Modeling of Architectural Ornament, In fact,
he waa the sole teacher of eculpture i n the university
until he resigned in 1937 and was followed by Jacques Schnier.
Also for 1906-07 an Instructor In Water Color waa appointed
and an Instructor In Pen and Ink, namely Perham Nahl. N&l
resigned the following year but returned to the University
in 1913-14, one of the great teachere in the Department that
developed thereafter. Eugen Neuhaua seema t o have been
appointed to replace Mahl, another prominent figure for the
years t o uome, and Chapel Judson, These three men are his-
t~rically~important
f o r they constituted the nucleus of the
permanent Art Department to come, Not till 1914-15 do w
e
find the courses i n painting acquiring a sort of autonomy

again. In this year a Department of Drawing and -Art was 

instituted and i n the following yeax under the steadfast 

uhairmanehip of the induetrial draughteman, Kower, we find 

the department organieed three &ivieions -- that of Engin-

eering Drawing, Graphic Art, and Domestic A r t . The l a t t e r 

was a new development of only two or three years trial, now

under the direction of Mary P
. Patterson, The next year

Professor Patterson'e division was taken over as a division 

of a Household A r t Department, and finally acquired inde- 

pendent statue i n the preerent Deoorative A
r
t Department. 

In 1923 Engineering Drawing was taken over into the 

Oollege of Engineering, and f o r the first time there was

an independent Department of A r t , since the brief glow a 

quarter of a century earlier under Ardley, 

As the preceding rapid aocount shows, the arts in the 

early decade8 of this century were in %hi8 University (and 

indeed similarly in all America) i n a poor relative status 

t o other academic functions -- thinly staffed, poorly 

equipped, poorly housed. It was a standard joke that if 

a visitor asked for music or art on the campus in the 20'8, 

30'8, or 40'8, he would be told t o look for the moat r
a
m
-


shackled buildings he could see and there he would find 

these departments, For years the A r t Department wae housed 

in Spreckels H a l l , a barn-like timber building which had 

been abandoned by zoologists and had a shark tank i n the 

' 	basement. It was i n this building the A r t Department grew
up from a tattering infant t o a responsible and respeoted adult
member of the community of University departments, The build-
ing etood where the new music building now stands, and there
i s a good deal of eentimental affection for the memory of
old Spreckels in spite of the roominess and eplendor of
t h i s fine new A
r
t and Anthropology building, lboeber Hall.
I n old Spreokele the member8 of the staff were a l l 

running in upon each other l i k e a big rollioking fanily. 

They were 6111 i n each othere* way and had quantitieer of 

legitimate gripes, but now something eeems miaslng. But 

one cannot be both a grown-up and a ohild. The significance

of these two great new buildings f o r Yuafo and A r t eide by 

8 t h looking window t o window at the great eoience buildings 

across the Campus i e that the arts as academic aubjeots 

f i l l i n g out a l i b e r a l education are now at l a e t established 

i n the University, 

It wa8 not eo in the ten8 and twenties, thirties, and
fortiea. It i s a rather dramatic story how the art6 made
their place in American higher education. I w i l l t r y briefly
t o fell the p a r t of that story that has t o do with the
Berkeley campue.
!the liberal. education in America had reached a ~ t r a n g e
condition at the turn of the oentury. The old basic train-
ing in the elassics ha8 been demolished, The vigorous new
special sciences were i n the ascendancy, History had sur-
vived and philosophy, modern languages were demanded for
their utility, and eo also English. Ihe cultivation of the
aesthetic values that had inevitably filtered through in
the solid reading of the Greek and Latin classics was gone.
It went out of English t o a large extent, too, for the pro-
fessors of Euglieh thought they also ehould be scientific.
Literary criticiem gave way t o philology and historical
research and eo~iological
studiea. The cultivation of the
aesthetic arts w a s at an a l l time low.
It wae against this background that interest grew i n
f i l l l n g up the aesthetic vacuum In the liberal arta pro-
Qram* Going back to L a t i n and Greek was out of the ques-
tion. Some who were eonscioua of this problem f e l t that
we could do even better than the old claslsical training by
directly aiming at the aesthetio values through adapting
teaching i n literature, mueic, and the visual arts to the
liberal arts college,
' The problem was how this was t o be done, In the twenties
nobody really knew. There were experiments going on. As
regards the visual a r t 6 these f e l l into two main groups6
There were those who modeled college art education on the
methods of the professional art schools, and those who held
that the teaching of art hiatorr was the only proper mode of
art instruction f o r a university, The east coast with many
large museums available generally took the l a t t e r way, The
west beyond the Alleghenies where art museums were few gen-
erally took the former. It was questionable whether either
had fully faced the problem.
In Berkeley the problem became acute early in the history
of the Department. The various members developed different
ideas. Theae ideas could have eerious personal effects in
the distribution of courses, i
n the prerequisites for courses,
in promotions, and appointmente, To add t o the confusion,
this w
a
r
s just the period when the abstract art movement wae
beginning t o have an impact. The older members of the Depart-
ment were r e a l i s t s and impressionists and well-reputed
painters i n these ~choola-- notably Mahl, and leuhaus
and Boynton joined l a t e r by Bosamond Stanley, The
younger members who ome t n -- Byder, Wickson, Haley,
Loran, Margaret Peterson, and Marion Simpeon -- were most
of them freeh from Europe and all of them f u l l of vigor
and enthusiasm f o r the new movement, Issues arose over
the teaching of anatomy and perapeotive and as t o what the
fundamentalrs o f the art should be,
In 1930, on the diecriminatory guggestion of Worth
Ryder, a one-man show was given at the Legion of Honor
Muse- for Bans fIofmannts work, the first show of this
arrtiet i n America, Re was a modernist wtth already a repu-
tation abroad, who was l a t e r to become recognizedas one of
the eminent painters of hie generation. He was invited
t o teach Fn the Berkeley Summer Seasions of 1930 and 1931,
Being a atirnulating teacher with a g i f t for analyzing what
he was doing, he had a .profound effect on h i s students and
Indeed on the whole aommuaity, People took eriaes violently '
for and against his teachings. He greatly intensified the
issues over what the Department should be, Another modern-
ist of gathering reputation, Vaclav Wytlacil, who taught
i n t h e S m e r Sessions of 193l rsnd 1932, did not leseen the
tensions aroused by Hof'mann,
O f course ,there was plenty of well-intentioned advice
from persona outside the Department and the University, The'
problems of art teaching became aommon table topics at the
~ a c u l t y
Club, There was hardly a major committee on the
campus that did not get some of these problems i n its
8ossier, To the administrative officers it was a constant
healashe,
Inevitably, there had t o be special committees on the
A
r
t Department, There was a whole rsruoceasion of them
through the twenties and t h i r t i e s an8 there was a stand-by
committee held zvailable t o advise the ohaiman until as
reoently as 1952, . .
Theee oommltteea eerved two very important functionee
They eduoated a large section of the faculty t o the importance
of the arts in a liberal education, and they gradually developed
with the oooperation of the Art Department staff a program
for the visual arts adapted to University conditions,
Evolving this program was s alow process, however, While
these reforma were being worked out, the oomilttees recom-
mended chairmen from outside the Department, They even
aought for a while a ohairman from outside the University.
It is as well that they did not i n the end recommend auoh
an appointment, for it would probably have delayed putting
Into effect the program being evolved within the University
by the oooperative efforts (amid struggles and compromise)
of the Departxuent and its oommitteea.
First Oliver Washburn, a olassioal archeologist, was
made ohairman, being transferre& from the Greek Department,
though his oouraes in the history of ancient art were listed
in the Department of Drawing and A
r
t long before that, He
nerved for ten years, from 1925 t o 1935. Then Warren Perry,
Dean of the Sahool of Arcliiteoture, was appointed chairman.
He oould not really with hia other dutiee afford the time
for it, however, and ehortly thereafter, in 1938, a member
of the Philosophy Department was appointed chairman who
eerved until 1952. By this l a t t e r date, the program
evolved f o r the organleation of the Department had been
f i l l y introduced and tested. It was working smoothly wit-
the Department and was well-soordinated with the rest of the
University. The visual art@
had become a atable entity in
the University aurrieulum and administration.
The reforms brought about were not aotually many, but
eome of them were rather draetio in terms of the established
traditions of the Amerioan univereity. The drastio ones
arose from t W g aeriouely the incorporation of the oreative
artist i n the Univereity femily. The oreative funotion was
f i r a t eafe-guarded by instituting three formal divisions
within the Department oorresponding with its three mRin
teaching Arnctione r (1) praotioe, (2) theory and oriticism,
(3) history. htually, the initially effective divleions
beaame the first andl the laet.
2he second is still rather undeveloped, In epite of a
s m a l l number of exoellent eotlrses I n a rather preoarious
statue that have been given mainly by Ryder, Wessele, and
MoCray, who are thoroughly competent men In the theory of
B L T ~ . Mention should alao be made here of Itorante defini-
tive work on CBeanne's Composition, published by the Univer-
s i t y Prees, w h o h belongs in this area. There is, t o be
sure, a l o t of expert theory that conee out in the artitatat
critiaiams in the practioe sourses, Yet this division i e
still weak and m i g h t easily in an inadvertent ehuffle of
bourses be snuffed out* But it W a s conceived in the
original program ae fully ooordinate with the other two, And
t o the student of theoretioal aesthetic8 and c r i t i c i m in
the visual arts, it is equally important,
There was a brief experiment In the ephere of art
eduoation that should be mentioned, in which the A r t Depart-
ment and the Sohool of Education shared, Henry Schaefer-
Sirnmern was invited on a temporary baeia to guide this
projeot, He preoipitated a new set of issues over the
proper policiea for art edacation in the sohoola, and it
was presently thought best t o iliaoontinue t h i s enterprise,
a t least for the time being.
The main effective development was thus In the coordin-
ation of art history and practice, Some universities have
put the history and the practice of the visual a r t s in
separate departments, This is administratively easier, but
the judgment of the committees was that it is good for the
artists to rub ehoulders with the historians, and equally
good for the historians to rub shoulders with the oreative
artists whose works they write about, Por the cultivation
of the etudent, it seemed clearly advantageous t o have the
two mingled, The results seem t o have justified the
intentions, A student majoring in either divirsion is re-
quired t o take a respectable amount of work in the other,
This guarantees a balanoed feeling for the arts.
T
w
o other radical Innovatione had t o do with the prao-
t i s e division, The University was persuaded t o appoint
areative artists on a level with other professional appoint-
ments without requiring an acadsmio degree, The point was
brought out that any a r t i e t with a strong oreative drive
w~uld
never lef himeelf be diverted into four or five years
of historical research for a Ph,D. degree, If the University
was eager t o obtain men of the rrame level of aehleoement in
painting or eculpture that they had in hiatorioal and ~ c i e n t i -
f i a researoh, the criteria must be those of outstanding
achievement in their own mode of activity, There are artists
i n Ohe Department who have no academic degree8 a t all, and
they r i s e deservedly t o the hlgheet professional ranks, The
University i r r enriohed by their preeenoe, ,
The other innovations had t o do with the prautiae oourses,
Originally theue were aet up in a pyramid of eubjeots with
Qoursesprerequisite t o other courses, on the analogy of
courses in mathematios, physic8, and other acienaes, The
innovation8 aoneieted in spreading the practioe couraes all
out on a level with no prerequisites other than oertain
basic elementary ooursee in basic design, The advanoed
olassea thus became the artist's studios and the eontent waa
eaoh artist's om approach t o his art, A major student was
aaked to work under at least three artists, but beyond that
he could study with credit as long as he wished, and had time
1
f o r , with any one artist, Every etudent had the benefit
of personal criticiem, And it was part of the program that
i n making new appointments of a r t i s t e t o the staff, these
should be ohoaen t o provide as wide a diversity of styles
as possible without dropping t o mediourity, For much of
t h i s program, and f o r the detailed eubstance of the baa10
elementary design oourses, the Univereity is indebted t o
the vision and energy of Wor%hRyder.
For the oorresponding aevelopment of fhe hfstory side
of the Department, the University i e indebted t o the
energy, ingenuity, and foreeight of Walter Horn, Be oame
t o the Department i n 1938, its first fully tralned art
hietorian.
A number of ooursee in art hietory b d been given by
Neuhaus and Ryder, with oritical discrimination and with
much profit t o the students, and Heuhaue had written a
number of widely read hietorleal books an Ameriean art,
'Ehere had also from an early time been oourses on the
history of ancient art given i n the Latln and Greek Depart-
ments by men with a cultural interest in this direction,
lashburn, however, was the first classicist with an aruho-
logical training, and within the limited mope affordea him
I n those early days he pepformed an Indiepensable service,
A l l of these men, however, provided muoh of their teaching
equipment out of their own funde.
Oonsequently, when Horn came t o %heDepartment there
w a s almost no hiatory of art equipment available t o him
f o r his teaching, t o aay not- of provisions for hiatori-
eal research -- almost no slides, nor photographe, beyond
the rather limited oollections used by Ryder, Heuhaue,
and Washburn, and big gaps in the library. By good fortune
the WPA w
w i n rull rswing, Horn organieed a large and
effeotite team of photographere, slide-binders, and handy-
men, and in two years with ridisulouely s m a l l finanoial
help produced a reepectable tesohing oolleotion.
A t the same finte, Born bambarded the Library administra-
tion with lists of indispensable books I n hie field, so
large and so alanaing in their aignifieanae of the library's
needs that prodigiouer funds were turned In hie direation,
Eere also the history of art began t o look reepectable,
Finally, though not u n t i l Horn had oarried thia load
alone for nearly ten years, two new fully trained art histor-
itmar were added t o the etaff, both In 1947-48. Otto
Maanchen wae appointed to fill the gap in the hietory
of Oriental A r t and Darrell Amyx t o eupplement Washburn
in the wide f i e l d of ancient art,
With the appointment of these men, myglernented by
the contributions in art hietory and oriticism by other
men i n the A r t Department an8 eupported by the highly
oompetent instruotion in the hietory of primitive ast
i n the Anthropology Department, the chairmaa made an appli-
cation t o the Graduate Divieion for i t e offering of a dootorte
degree in the History of Art, This move awakened all the
suepioions and appreheneiona about art in the academio
field which had been slumbering in the gradual r i m t o
maturity of this new Department, The battle was a bitter
one, against the opposition of the then graduate dean t o
the very end. Z f it had not been f o r the support of Ugh
administrative offioers and a number of scholars of prea-
t;ige, it could hardly have been won, !he privilege of
offering the Ph.D, degree was granted i n 1948,
From thie point on there i e nothing very muoh to add but
the names of many new men of vigor and increasing prominence
in both the practice and historiaal fielde. To the artist
ataff have been added Ward Lockwood, Jamee MaCray, Felix
Ruvola, Glenn Weesela, Chiura Obata, Earl. ICasten, and
David Park, To the history of art wing James hkerman,
Herschel Chipp and Juergen Sohulz, These men never f e l t
tthe long u p w e struggle and the turmoil of those stimulat-
l n g formative years -- only i t a aftermath, But they have
helped t o give it the flowering of dietinction.
There i a Suet one more very important event not mentione4
yet, That is the doining of soulpku-e t o the A r t Department
this very year coinaiding with the move into Iboeber Hall,
under the judioioue guidance of Jacques Schnier, who was onae
the whole division of sclfpture in this University, T h i s
division has now tripled i n alee t o include also Biahard
OIHanlon (who has been here for many years) and Sidney
Gordin, who i e a weloome newcomer.
The Department f ~ o m
1952 t o 1957 wae under the able
chairmanship of-the artist Erle Loran, Prom 1957 on, it has
been under the able chairmanship of the art historian Walter
Born. The steady growth of the Department under this
alternate guidanoe of artist and art historian indioates
t o m
e the harmony and solidity of the Department and the
wisdom of the collective judgment that conceived its
atructuree.
[e i s e d ] Stephen C, Pepper
[Postscript]
This was written as one of three etatemente t o appear
in the aatalog for the exhibition inaugurating the opening
of Kroeber H a l l i n 1959%. It was thought more appropriate,
however, t o expand upon the present program m d ideal8 of
t h i s Department and omit the details of its hietory, This
statement was accordingly aret aaide and a new etatenent
provided.
*Art from Inmea t o Pollock, Painting and Sculpture
since Heoolassicism, an exhibition inaumatina Alfred
I
;
. Xroeber H a l l and-the galleries of th; A r t ~ e ~ a z t -
ment of the University of California, Berkeley, Maroh
6 - A p r i l 3, 1960, [Berkeley: University of California
Prese ,] Foreword by Grace Ij, McCann Morley, "Art Exhibi-
tione and the Universityn by James D. Hart, nThe A
r
t
Departmentn by Stephen C, Pepper, an8 nArtfrom Ingres
t o Pollookmby Herschel B, Chipp,
437.
APPENDIX B
Special Bibliography
Professor Pepper's point of view regarding art i n the univer-
s i t y i s developed over a fourteen-year period i n these sources:
1. A r t Without Artists, American Scholar 7, no. 4: 403-08,
October 1938.
2. 	 H
o
w to F i t Universities f o r Artists, American Scholar 9,
no. 2: 192-200, A p r i l 194.0.
3. 	 Universities Discover A r t , Parnassus 12, no. 6 : 14-15,
34-35, October 1940.
4. 	 W
h
y Give a Ph.D. i n Creative Art? Parnassus 12, no. 8:
3, December 1940.
5. 	 A r t i n the American College and University, College A r t
Journal 5, no. 3: 194-200, March 1946.
6. 	 Creative Training, College Art Journal 9, no. 3: 273-78,
Spring 1950.
7. 	 Problem of Teacher Training i n A r t , College A r t Journal 9,
no. 3: 284-89, Spring 1950,
8. 	 Balanced A r t Department, Collepe A r t Journal 11, no. 3:
166-171, Spring 1952.
I
APPENDIX C 

Calendar of Events on Loyalty Oath
from January 1949 t o April 21, 19509
January 1943. wComptrollerJamea H
. Corley,
in his sapqoity aa University repreeentative at the
Legislature, eoommenda to President Robert G. Sproul
that an anti-
'6 ommunist oath be required of the faculty
as a preventive to the possible passage of legielation
Bangeroue to the U n i ~ e r e i t y . ~
(stewart, p. 28)
M
y information was that Oorley ran into trouble
with the budget and t o appease legislatore t o get his
budget through proposed the anti-Communiet oath.
Stewart's statement takes Corley off the hook. !The
"dangerous legislationn may have been failure to get
his budget through.
H a g . Paculty Bulletin aontains announcement of
a %ew oath (text not given) which must be signed be-
fore salary checks oan be released." (p. 28) 'Pussman,
a young philosophy-trained aeeiatant professor I n epeech,
notiued thie and brought it to the attention of Tolman
and othere.
June 7. Regular Academic Senate (Northern section)
meeting at end of eemester. Oath i e m e raised and ape-
cia1 meeting arranged for.
June 1
1
. Special meeting. Text of oath released
by office. "To the usual pledge of alle-
giance (Article XX, Sec. 3 of the Oalifornia oonstituion)
is added: '
I do not believe in end am not a member of
*Source for dates and most of the aate taken until my
involvement in Committee of Seven oomea from George
Stewart'e The Pear of the Oath.
\
nor do I wlpport any party or organization that believes
in, advocates or teaahes the overthrow of the U,S,
government by forcte o r violanee, ' (p, 28)
June 14, Another special meeting with large
attendanoe, Tolman'e motion of no objeation t o oonati-
tutiona) oath but "requeet that the speoial addition
'be deleted o r revised i n a manner mutually acceptable
t o the regents and the members of the Academic Senate,*"
(p, 29) Intended as a memorial to the regents, this was
amended with Tolman's consent t o an inetruction t o the
Senate Advisory Committee (Elldebrand, chairman, Lehman,
and walker) nto oonsult with the president 'with a view
t o working out euoh a eolution,' " (pi 29) Left unclear
whether committee waa mentrustedwith power t o actwor
only "to consult and refer the matter back t o the 8enate,m
Committee eeerned t o aesume former interpretation, and
regents definitely did,
June 1
8
. Addeory Committee meeta with president
and suggests as substitute for apeaial additiont YChat
I am not under oath, not a party t o any agreement, nor
ars a member of any party o r organisation am I under any
sommitment that is in eonflict wlth m
y obligations under
. 	 thia oathm(p. 29) -- mthiaoathmreferring t o the oonsti-
tutional oath of allegianaet,
, June 20, Southern Seotion Academic Senate conours.
June 21, Southern Senate Advisory Committee confers
with preaident and conoure with Northern Senate Advisory
Gommittee statement,
June 24. aRegente meeting.' Resolution is passed
reaffirming the 1940 anti-Comn~unietpolicy and requiring
an oath beginning wlth the eonatitutional pledge, boor-
poratlng the Advisory Oommittee*a,suggested worde, but
ineertin *that I am not a member of the Communist
-
"
BGomplete addition se *ollonsr "I em not s
Party.
member of the Communist Party, or under any oath, or a
party t o any agreement, or under any commitment that
i s in eonfliot with my obligations under thia oathen
(P. 30)
Summer Vaoation
June 2 . First BTon-signerrr meeting a% Paoulty
Club, 6
erke ey,
dune 28. Chairman af Advisory Committee die-
ouscpes ideas of Bon-signers with prersident,
June 30, aUnoffiaial statement by 'University
Offioialsv in the press that ealazy checks w i l l not be
held up (p. 91)
duly 6, Van-Senate academic employees meet,
organize, and support the Senate position opposing the
oath CHSAEI (p. 31)
duly 8, Meeting organidng Non-signere in Lo8
hgeles,
Wid-July, "President sends l e t t e r s t o the faculty
individually, presenting regentsv resolution of June 24,
appending the oath t o be signed, and expressing h i s hope
that it would be eigned and returned by October 1."
(p. 3
1
'
) A good many sign the revised oath, thinking it
had Senate backing, or from being away not becoming aware
of issue, or approving it, o r for other reasons.
Sate July. uItbecomes obvious that contraots for
1949-50 axe being sent out only t o si ers. The faculty
considera this a breach of faith.. ." . 31)
Se tember 1 .. Benate meeting in Wheeler Auditorium,
Approximately 50 present, Much dissatisfaotion with
-E-7a
action of Adhsory-Uommittee and its apparent assumption
of power t o act. !ho reaolutione adopted: (1) endorrslng
University Regulation 5, which in eeneral terms proteata
academic freedom, and enjoins faculty t o avoid indootrina-
tion and t o pursue knowledge f o r l t e own eake; (2) request-
ing the privilege of taking the oath voluntarily and not
under oompulsion,
Peptember 22, UCLA Senate meeting endoreea Berkeley
reeolutione,
September 23. Begenta meeting; Faculty resolutions
presented, A committee of regentls appointed to aonfer
with faculty oommittees (Neylan, ohairman, Hansen, aordan,
Ehrman, Fanaton, Sproul) .
September 24, Regents oommittee meets with Senate
Advieory Committee (~ebman,ohairman, Dennes, Walker for
1949-50 a t Berkeley, Eildebrand went o f f voluntarily,
I think, after his earlier attempts ae chairman of the
previous Advisory Committee were repudiated by the Sen-
ate, ), B~gentsseemed eympathetic. (I recall Dennest
relating t o me the artrange behavior of Neylan at thle
and the next meeting.)
September 30, Regents present a negative and
unyielding eet of resolutions; d t e r more arpent with
~ommittee,regents agree -- (1) that l e t t e r s of contract
be r e l e a ~ e dand (2) that an informal affirmation be
acceptable Instead of the formal oath, and express them-
selves as ready for f'urther negotiation,
October 10. Senate meeting -- large attendance,
November 7. Senate meeting large &tendance.
0-
A l l these meetings i n mheeler Auditorium nearly f i l l i n g
the room, 600 to 900 present. A t t h l s meeting I think
Advisory Committee recommended that a special Conference
Committee be appointed by the Committee on Committeee t o
deal with Neylan.
Thie was oarefully chosen soon after and ~ 0 n ~ i 8 t e d
of Malcolm Davisson, chairman, Robert A. Gordon, Joel H.
Hildebrand, Wendell BVI. Stanley, Actually Davisson oarried
the brunt of it and I did not aee that the others were a t
all prominent in the autianar Daviseon guided. I g o t the
impression that Davieeon and Neylan had most of their dia-
auseione individually, and Davlseon took a l o t of abuse,
the more beoause having a legal training he could meet
Beylan on his own ground.
A t this meeting ale0 the Senate voted for the
nMama resolution* (George Adams of philosophy department),
It was framed by some of the older, more coneervative
faculty membere in the hope that it would eatiefy the
regente of the faculty's good Intentions. Mame was chosen
t o move it 6 ~ 8
8omeone w
h
o
m the more liberal membere of the
faaulty, espesially the Xon-signers, would lieten to, for
the philosophy department had a liberal reputation. X t
expressed agreement with the anti-Communist stand of the
regent8 but endoreed it in terms of the objectives of
*impartial eoholarehip and the free pursuit of truth,"
not beoause it waa an unapproved political party or ideol-
ogy. Bleylan had hlnted through the preas that an anti-
Communist resolution by *he faculty might be a l l he
wanted, It wae another eop thrown out to the regents.
But it didn't work.
Deoember 1 . Davleaon and Neylan meet, and pro-
bably ____ifrant, ohaiman of UCLA parallel conference
a l s o A.C.
oomittee, though one never heard anything about Grant,
December 16. Begento meeting -- Pox at UCLA die-
missed (cf. Stewart, pp, 42-46, for the eignifican~e
of
this aot), In December D&sson call8 together dean6
and ehaimen, Beaame known as Committee of 51,
January 13, 1950. Regents meeting. Regente
conferenae oomittee discharged, m d faculty Conference
Committee instructed t o address future communioations t o
president, Amounted t o breakdown of faculty-regents
negotiations,
February 24. Begenter meeting, Diarega.de a etate-
ment of 42 deans and ohairmen pointing out damage oath
controversy wes doing to the University, Voted 1 2 t o 6
that thoae not eigning by April 30 would be deemed as
having eevered oonnection with the University as of June 30.
Late February, In 312 Wheeler, Davieson called a
eelected group of faculty, the Committee of 51 and others
who received word-of-mouth invitations, and proposed a
mass resignation of 500 o r eo. Response discouraging t o
him, Thie seemed t o h i m the facultyta last remaining
effective weapon. But many thought it would only please
Beylan and open the door t o a yes-man faculty and poasi-
bly a stooge president -- in short, ruin the University,
Also, there was the problem of getting 500 men t o quit,
and doubt that other universities would provide for them,
'Ehe idea, however, was brought up again in A p r i l t o the
Committee of Seven on another basis, by Btanley. Not as
a mass simultaneous resignation, but over a year this
number agreeing t o quit as lobe turn& up in other uni-
versitierr. T h i s l a t t e r plan did not seem %otallyunwork-
able t o me, though again I S lay the University open to
leylant8 recruiting, an8 was not a thing t o be sarried
through unless oondftiona turned out quite hopeleas,
Feb.mary28, The Committee of Seven ie choeen
by the Committee of 51 (reported in San Franuisco
Chronicle March 1, 1950). Daviseon was authorieed to
set up thie oommittee through hie Oommittee of 51 of
deans and chairmen, possibly as a result of Ron-signers'
diatrust of the Committee on Qommittees, The Committee
of 51 met i
n South Hall late in the afternoon of
February 28 an8 elected the Oommittee of Seven from
nominations off the floor,
Committee of Seven eleetedt Hicks, ohairman,
Sontag, Jenkins, Simpson, Evans, O'Brien, Pepper,
Addea to these as non-voting participmts were Kidner,
chairman of publicity, Griffin from journalism, a8
expert in publicity, Jenninge of law, as chairman of
the legal committee, Newman as recipient of funde,
Brode ae custodian of Funds*
March 7
. Senate meeting, Davisson reports
failure of hi8 committee to negotiate with the regents,
and ask8 that his committeo be relieved, *Senate
votes, defiantly ana unanimously, a reaolution reject-
ing 'the speoial oath, and the arbitrary dismissal of
loyal members of the faculty for refusal to sign the
oatheen(p, 37) Approved motion to vote by seoret
ballot on two propositionst
'PropositionNo. It "(1) All members of the 

Senate will subscribe to the constitutional oath of 

loyalty ewom by officers of public truet in the 

State of California as prescribed i
n Article XX, 

Section 3, of the Constitution of the State of Cali- 

fornia, (2) All future letters of acceptanoe of 

salssy and position will contain a statement that the 

person concerned accept6 such position subject to the 

Univer~itypolicies embodied in the Regents' resolu- 

tion of October 11, 1940, and dune 24, 1949, excluding 

members of the Communist Party from employment in the 

University, and in Univereity Regulation 5, endoreed 

in the Regenter' statement of February 24, 1950,u 

[~roposition1 was a motion euggestea by Davis-
son. Approved March 22 by mail ballots as oountedt
841-93 Berkeley, 313-43 UCLA. Proposition 2 wae pro-
posed by Gordon, Stanley, Davis, and amounted to a
reendoreenent of the A
d
a
m
s reaolution, It paseed
724-203 Berkeley, 301-65 UCLA, Dads at this time was
Letters and Scienoe Dean.]
Proposition b
T
o
. 2; R830 person whose commit-
m e n t ~o r obligations t o any organiaation, Comuniat
or other, prejudice impartia,l scholamhip and free
pursuit of t r u t h w i l l be amployed by the University,
Proved menbers of the Conmunist Party, by reason of
t h e i r oommitmente t o that party, are not aoaeptable
as members of the faculty."
?hen the Senate went Into wexecutiveaeesionA
as the Committee of the Paculties, in which it re-
maine8 u n t i l the Senate meeting of April 22, The
effect of this was t o take the Senete noff the campuaa
so that it waa no longer subject t o or responsible t o
the University administration, In executive seesion
it approved the faculty "eteeringw Committee of Seven
t o carry on the fight for the faculty against the spe-
c i a l oath,
Also i n executive eession the faculty empowered
the Committee on Committees t o select another Confer-
ence Committee t o replace Davisson's, which resigned.
The Committee on Committees dodged thie assignment
publicly fron a desire not t o give the appearance that
another conference committee outafde the Committee of
Seven warr needed, but empowered Hicks t o appoint such
a four-man committee, which he d i d , appointing Hicks,
chairman, Jenkins, Simpson, Pepper, out of the Commit-
t e e of Seven, This committee never functioned as euch.
A l l busineas of the Committee of the Faculties was done
through the "steeringw Committee of Seven. (However,
it leaked out on Maroh 29 that the Cornmittbeeon Commit-
tees had privetely appointed i n reserve a Conference
Committee of four [Hicks, chairman, OfBrien, Davis,
wellman], ehowing they had their doubte about the
effectiveneee of the Committee of Seven. This last
committee would have been an offioial academic commit-
tee. But it waa never actually brought into being.
The Committee of Seven, of course, was off campus along
with the faculty in executive session.)
March 7-22. The Committee of Seven takes up head-
quartera and organizes its business in Hotel Durant,
Rooms 328 and 329. These became the faculty center
and a elogan for the faculty in revolt. Much work was
done in t h i s interval i n orgmieing publicity. Much
help here oame from Paul Sruith, editor of the SF Ohroni-
-
ole, and Ruth Bewhall, t h e i r Berkeley oorreepondent,
Thia was the only paper in California of any size
t h a t oonsietently gave favorable publicity t o the
faculty, The San Franciaco News tried t o for a
while, having a l i b e r a l local editor, but the head
of the chain was conservative, and the editorials .
grew neutral t o opposed. The reporters on many of
€he papers were favorable, however, and often gave
a break t o the faculty in the news column8 when the
editorials were strongly hostile.
BBuch work was done by the legal committee,
dlireoted by Jennings, and it was decided not t o
i n s t i t u t e legal action, any nay not u n t i l after the
next regent8 meeting. In fact, we did not have
much of a legal case, It appeared, unless a tenure
member were dismiaeed.
The financial committee was kept busy receiv-
ing funds.' $7,000 in contributions came In almost
immediately without pressure. Some large e m s
offered were temporarily declined u n t i l the Committee
of Seven had a better perspeotive of future events
f o r the faoulty.
There was plenty t o keep the Committee of Seven
busy. Faculty nembers were constantly making inquir-
i e s and askingadvice. Some of the wives of the
oommittee and staff did veluable work as secretaries,.
typing, etc., tmd asking questions -- all or nearly
all without pay,
And then there waa the constant worr$ of holding
the faoulty eteady -- and the NSAE, and the atudents,
laroh 28. An important meeting of the Committee
of Seven, in whioh it decide& t o end Hicks and O'Brien
(joined by Dodds of UCLA) t o be observere at the coming
regents meeting in Santa Barbara,
March 31. Regents meeting, Hicks oarefully
presented faculty compromise (March 7 Propoaitiom
1and 2 ) , supported briefly by OtBrien and Dodda.
W
e heard from Governor Warren l a t e r that Hicks made
a fine impression. He was not ohbied as Daviseon
had been, But Meylan, who had previouely allowed
that the faculty compromise exhibited in Propositions
1and 2 was agreeable t o him, now made a violent
attaok on the faculty, assiated by Lieutenant Governor
Knight. There were rumors of s tumultuoura meeting of
the regente the night before i n exeoutive eesslon when
they really got lined up. Vote on motion t o withdraw
ultimatum was 10 t o 10, but motion t o table wae l o s t
1 2 t o 8, two votee going over t o support Neylan here.
April 2. Committee of Seven met with Sprou3, in
In 329 Ixlrant, urged h h t o take etand againat oath
now that 10-10 vote relieved him of responsibility of
eiding w i t h one side of the regents. He f e l t he would
,
do t h i s only if he reaigned and that would open the
situation for Neylan t o appoint a stooge for president.
b r i l 5. Bfeeting7of steering cormnittee of Bon-
aigners a t 202 Spreckels A r t Builaing at noon, with m
e
reporting on the Oomnittee of Seven. Davisson present,
whom they trusted and who supported m
e at the meeting,
Great pessimism over management by Committee of Seven,
and suspicion of me developing. This was serious, for
as a lsympathizer with the Non-signers, I was the one
real connecting link between them and the Committee of
Seven.
Meeting of the Oommittee of 51 that evening
(70 or 80 present) in 312 Wheeler. Hicks reported on
March 31 regent8 meeting.
April 6, Meeting of Non-signers at Paoulty Club
(150-plus present). Aim of us in the know of what
the Committee of Seven waa planning In oooperation with
the present was t o keep the Non-signers f'rom bolting.
Kidner made opening epeech very well, laying out prob-
lems of the Oommittee of Seven and the need of re-
atrajllt and patience, and giving evidence that the
Neylan regents were nervous on their side. Then I was
t o take the brunt of questioning, Kidner did so goM
a job, I was l e t off easy, except f o r the question of
what the Committee of Seven waa cloing f a r WSAE (non-
Senate academic e m ~ l o p e s ) . I had t o admit we were
absorbed tn faoukty rfroblemss. Ed Strong oame t o the
oommitteels aefense vigorously pointing out that the
f a t e of BSBE rested on that o f the faculty. Their
only wise strategy was t o support the faculty and the
faculty's Committee of Sevan.
I
April 8, Meeting of Committee of Seven with 

preeident in 329 Durant, President pressed sheep-and- 

goats idea -- separating signers from non-signere,
latter to go before Privilege and Tenure Clommittee 

for clearance from Communist involvement, which being 

ascertained they could remain on faculty, Suggestion 

of this at April 2 meeting also, He got no enoourage-

ment ,
April lo, Xeeting of off-oampus faoulty in
Wheeler Auditorium, About 700 preeent, Report about
regents larch 31 meeting by Hioka, Vote of oonfidence
moved by Brodeur (~nglish)for president and then for
Committee of Seven, Report on legal statua, an8 on
finances (only 250 of faculty eo far subscribed, and
fund of $1,300 so raised not enough for safety). Report
on statistical survey of number of Bon-eigners, Some-
body at termination of reports moved for rising vote
for Committee of Seven, No response for that, Impassive
orowd, no enthusiasm, a wait-and-see attitude.
BBuch dissatisfaction with Hicks' report and in-

quiries as to what Committee of Seven wae d
o
-
, if any-

thing, Kidner thought 'a special meeting to explain was 

imperative. Hicks had approved it and so did I (recently 

appointed by Hicks a8 vicle-chairman of Committee of 

Seven), Hicks, I n fact, had left town at thie juncture,
leaving me a8 acting; chairman, It was the most precar- 

ious week for the stability of the University personnel, 

Non-signers, faculty in general, BSAE, etudente -- all
worried and without confidence in Committee of Seven, 

and any one of them prepared to burst into eome eort of 

violence. And this epecial meeting scheduled by Kidner
for Friday, the one chance to keep the lid on. Hicks 

ha8 not informed nor prepared the rest of the Committee 

of Seven for the meeting, so I had to pereuade them and 

they were most reluctant, doubting it would do any good,

and fearing it would be an occasion for an eruption, 

gidner and I felt that an eruption was imminent unless 

we gave an opportunity for expression and questioning, 

2he committee at last agreed, but would take no respon- 

sibility for what might happen, and I think none came to 

the meet-, 

April 14, Committee of Seven meeting, 4800 p.m.,
at which we agreed to confer with an alumni committee
through representatives (vie, Udner,0'Brien, and Dodds
of UCLA) to see if we could accept them as a mediating
group between faculty and regenta. Results mostly 

negative., 

Meet- (for thie Friday, April lath, referred 

t o above) a t 7t 30 p.m. of faculty and any of XSAE 

aesiring t o come (to w
h
o
m meeting was opened a t l a s t 

moment) In 2000 LSB, About 400, Acting as chairman, 

I opened the meeting saying no resolutions would be 

acceptable eince this meeting had no academic identi- 

fication, but Kidner and 1 would t r y t o anewer all 

questions aerked, Kidner opened with ahort witty 

epeech, H
e took moat of the queationa, But I had t o 

fake the only hard one which was asked by Gordon and 

repeated by lolmanr 'Had the Committee of Seven any 

definite plans in the event of a negative result a t 

the regents uoming A p r i l 21 meeting?" I repliea that 

the Oommittee of Seven on thie matter ooula not divulge 

anything without weakening the faculty position before 

the regents, W
e had t o ask the faculty and atudents 

t o do the most difficult of all thingst t o do nothing 

when they were so eager t o do much, Barbara Armstrong 

gave the l a s t speech of the evening on the same theme, 

and Yarsh made a speech in praise of Kidner, And eo 

the meeting ended, W
e thought i t went off well, and 

eeveral persons t o l d us so. It seemed t o release the 

crampus tensions which were close to a b r e a m point. 

W
e did have a plan, which waa t o arrange f o r a
.Cornittee of Five V o explore actions which may be
taken by the faculty as a result of various posaible
actions of the regents on April 21,'
And w,e were, of uourse, doing our best t o work 

out with the president and regents and the epecial 

Alumni Committee a form of oontract consietent with 

the s p i r i t of Propositions 1and 2 of the March 7 

meeting, W
e were also looking into the legal possibll-
l t i e s and aollecting funds for use in case of dismissals,
The Committee of Five was set up with Edward 

Strong ae chairman on A p r i l 18, On April 19 a aopy of 

the Alumni Committee compromise statement was in their 

hands and ours. It did away with the epecial oath but 

contained a statement embodying the aubstance of the 

oath, It contained the offending phrase "1 atate that 

I am not a member of the Commwiat Party," etc. The

Committee of Seven had kept insisting on the form8 

understand that it is the regentst policy," etc. The

alumni compromise also provided a sheep-and-goate 

process by which those not willing to accept the 

above oonditiona of employment could be examined by 

the Privilege and Tenure Committee of the faculty, 

and be acceptable for employment if oleared -- the
regents willing, 

The Oommittee of Seven decided to ask the 

faculty to accept thia compromise as the best 

prospective way out of the mess, if the regents 

paseed it. H i c b appointed Jennings ohairman of an 

agenda aommittee to prepare for a faculty meeting on 

April 22, the day following the regente' meeting. 

A great deal depended on the Committee of Five
if we were to hold the faculty in unity and self-
restraint at the April 22 meeting -- particularly on
the presentation of a motion to set up a publicity
committee of the faculty, Por some reason, the Bon-
signers had set their hearts on thia motion, And for
the erne reason Sontag and OIBrien were deep1
5 opposed
to it, Kidner and I and others aware of the on-Bignersl
attitude, and others i
n the faoulty, knew there would be
trouble in getting this accepted by the Committee of
Seven and the disastrous oonsequencee if not acceptgd,
If, however, the Committee of Seven did not approve it,
I knew Strongle committee Intended to present the
motion on their own as ooming from them aa an ad hoc
pornittee, This would amount to a repudiation of the
Oommittee of Seven, and would surely carry but would
also precipitate a lot of conflict and ill-will within
the faculty, So it was very important to get the
Committee of Seven to endoree Strong's committee and it6
prepared resolutions, Barbara Armstrong sensed the
problem and privately begged me to see that a young man,
Xerr, in economics, should present the oase for Strong's
committee, If anyone could do it, he could, she said,
I paeaea thie on. And at a very tense meeting of the
Oommittee of Seven on the night before the faculty meet-
ing, Kerr did do it,
April 21, Regents meeting at Davis in the after-
noon, Voting for the alumni compromise 21-1, The one
negative vote was Giannini's, whoee extreme expression
of horror at this communistic turn of the regent8 and
his indignant reaignation vaa the one really bright epot