The Bancroft Library University of California/Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
PERSPECTIVES ON THE ALAMEDA COUNTY
DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
VOLUME II
Richard H. Chamberlain: Reminiscences About the Alameda
County District Attorney s Office
Lloyd Jester: Reminiscences of an Inspector
in the District Attorney
1
s Office
Beverly Heinrichs : Reminiscences of a Secretary in
the District Attorney s Office
Clarence E. Severin: Chief Clerk in the Alameda County
District Attorney s Office
Homer R. Spence: Attorney, Legislator, and Judge
E.A. Daly: Alameda County Political Leader
and Journalist
John Bruce: A Reporter Remembers Earl Warren
With an Introduction by
Arthur H. Sherry
Interviews Conducted by
Miriam Feingold
Joyce Henderson
June Hogan
Copy No,
1973 by The Regents of the University of California
This manuscript is open for research purposes.
All literary rights in the manuscript, Including
the right to publish, are reserved to the Bancroft
Library of the University of California at Berkeley.
No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication
without the written permission of the Director of The
Bancroft Library of the University of California at
Berkeley.
Requests for permission to quote for publication
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History
Office, ^86 Library, and should include identification
of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated
use of the passages, and identification of the user.
PREFACE
The Earl Warren Oral History Project, a five-year project of the
Regional Oral History Office, was inaugurated in 1969 to produce tape-recorded
interviews with persons prominent in the arenas of politics, governmental ad
ministration, and criminal justice during the Warren Era in California.
Focusing on the years 1925-1953, the interviews were designed not only to
document the life of Chief Justice Warren but to gain new information on the
social and political changes of a state in the throes of a depression, then
a war, then a postwar boom.
An effort was made to document the most significant events and trends
by interviews with key participants who spoke from diverse vantage points.
Most were queried on the one or two topics in which they were primarily in
volved; a few interviewees with special continuity and breadth of experience
were asked to discuss a multiplicity of subjects. While the cut-off date of
the period studied was October, 1953 --Earl Warren s departure for the United
States Supreme Court there was no attempt to end an interview perfunctorily
when the narrator s account had to go beyond that date in order to complete
the topic.
The interviews have stimulated the deposit of Warreniana in the form of
papers from friends, aides, and the opposition; government documents; old movie
newsreels; video tapes; and photographs. This Earl Warren collection is being
added to The Bancroft Library s extensive holdings on twentieth century Cali
fornia politics and history.
The project has been financed by four outright grants from the National
Endowment for the Humanities and by gifts from local donors which were matched
by the Endowment. Contributors include the former law clerks of Chief Justice
Earl Warren, the Cortez Society, many long-time supporters of "the
Chief," and
friends and colleagues of some of the major memoirists in the project. The
Roscoe and Margaret Oakes Foundation and the San Francisco Foundation have
jointly sponsored the Northern California Negro Political History Series, a
unit of the Earl Warren Project.
Particular thanks are due the Friends of The Bancroft Library, who were
instrumental in raising local funds for matching, who served as custodian for
all such funds, and who then supplemented from their own treasury all local
contributions on a one-dollar-for-every-three dollars basis.
The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record auto
biographical intervies with persons prominent in the history of California and
the West. The Office is under the administrative supervision of James D. Hart,
Director of The Bancroft Library.
Amelia R. Fry, Director
Earl Warren Oral History Project
Willa K. Bautn, Department Head
Regional Oral History Office
1 March 1973
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California, Berkeley
ii
EARL WARREN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Principal Investigators
Ira M. Heyman
Lawrence A. Harper
Arthur H. Sherry
Advisory Council
Barbara Nachtrieb Armstrong
Walton E. Bean
Richard M. Buxbaum
William R. Dennes
Joseph P. Harris
James D. Hart
John D. Hicks*
William J. Hill
Robert Kenny
Adrian A. Kragen
Thomas Kuchel
Eugene C. Lee
Mary Ellen Leary
James R. Leiby
Helen McGregor
Dean E. McHenry
Sheldon H. Mes singer
Frank C. Newman
Allan Nevins*
Warren Olney, III
Bruce Poyer
Sho Sato
Mortimer Schwartz
Merrell F. Small
John D. Weaver
Project Interviewers
Miriam Feingold
Amelia R. Fry
Joyce A. Henderson
Rosemary Levenson
Gabrielle Morris
Special Interviewers
Orville Armstrong
Willa K. Baum
Malca Chall
June Hogan
Frank Jones
Alice G. King
Elizabeth Kirby
Harriet Nathan
Suzanne Riess
Ruth Teiser
^Deceased during the term of the project.
EARL WARREN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interviews Completed by December 1972
LABOR LOOKS AT EARL WARREN. 1970
Germaine Bulcke, A Longshoreman s Observations.
Joseph Chaudet, A Printer s View.
Paul Heide, A Warehouseman s Reminiscences.
U.S. Sitnonds, A Carpenter s Comments.
Ernest H. Vernon, A Machinist s Recollections.
Emily H. Huntington, A CAREER IN CONSUMER ECONOMICS AND SOCIAL INSURANCE . 1971
With an Introduction by Professor Charles A. Gulick
Robert B. Powers, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RACE RELATIONS: 1930-60. 1971
EARL WARREN S BAKERSFIELD. 1971
Maryann Ashe and Ruth Smith Henley, Earl Warren s Bakersfield.
Omar Gavins, Coming of Age in Bakersfield.
Francis Vaughan, School Days in Bakersfield.
Ralph Kreiser, A Reporter Recollects the Warren Case.
Manford Martin and Ernest McMillan, On Methias Warren.
EARL WARREN AND HEALTH INSURANCE; 1943-1949. 1971
Russel VanArsdale Lee, M.D., Pioneering in Prepaid Group Medicine.
Byrl R. Salsman, Shepherding Health Insurance Bills Through the
California Legislature.
Gordon Claycombe, The Making of a Legislative Committee Study.
John W. Cline, M.D., California Medical Association Crusade Against
Compulsory State Health Insurance.
William Byron Rumford, LEGISLATOR FOR FAIR EMPLOYMENT. FAIR HOUSING. AND
PUBLIC HEALTH. 1972
With an Introduction by A. Wayne Amerson
Merrell F. Small, THE OFFICE OF THE GOVERNOR UNDER EARL WARREN. 1972
EARL WARREN AND THE YOUTH AUTHORITY. 1972
With an Introduction by Allen F. Breed
Karl Holton, Developments in Juvenile Correctional Techniques.
Heman Stark, Juvenile Correctional Services and the Community.
Kenyon Scudder, Beginnings of Therapeutic Correctional Facilities.
Kenneth Beam, Community Involvement in Delinquency Prevention.
PERSPECTIVES ON THE ALAMEDA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE. 1972
With an Introduction by Arthur H. Sherry, Professor of Law
Volume I:
John F. Mullins, How Earl Warren Became District Attorney.
Edith Balaban, Reminiscences about Nathan Harry Miller, Deputy District
Attorney, Alameda County.
Judge Oliver D. Hamlin, Reminiscences about the Alameda County District
Attorney s Office in the 1920 s and 30 s.
Mary Shaw, Perspectives of a Newspaperwoman.
Willard W. Shea, Recollections of Alameda County s First Public Defender.
Volume II:
Richard Chamberlain, Reminiscences about the Alameda County District
Attorney s Office.
Lloyd Jester, Reminiscences of an Inspector in the District Attorney s
Office.
Beverly Heinrichs, Reminiscences of a Secretary in the District Attorney s
Office
Clarence Severin, Chief Clerk in the Alameda County District Attorney s
Office
John Bruce , A Reporter Remembers Earl Warren.
E.A. Daly, Alameda County Political Leader and Journalist
Homer R. Spence, Attorney, Legislator, and Judge
EARL WARREN AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH. 1972
With an Introduction by E.S. Rogers, M.D.
Malcolm H. Merrill, M.D., M.P.H., A Director Reminiscences.
Frank M. Stead, Environmental Pollution Control.
Henry Ongerth, Recollections of the Bureau of Sanitary Engineering.
Kent A. Zimmerman, M.D. , Mental Health Concepts.
Lawrence Arnstein, Public Health Advocates and Issues.
INTRODUCTION by Arthur H. Sherry
This series of Interviews with friends and associates of
Earl Warren have as their focus the beginnings of his pro
fessional and political career in the district attorney s office
of Alameda County, California. First appointed to that office
as a deputy in May of 1920, he became chief deputy in 1923,
and, two years later, district attorney.
The succeeding fourteen years were of critical importance
in developing the character, the professional skills and the
political competence of a man who was to give his name to a
great and controversial era of the decisional law of the
United States Supreme Court. The "Warren Court," as it was
to be called, has made a deep mark on the history of the
United States, particularly In the development and explication
of constitutional dimensions of the law of criminal procedure.
It has made it irreversibly plain that the concept of ordered
liberties demands more than lip service, that our system of
criminal Justice has dimensions beyond the mere repression of
crime and that the recognition of constitutional principles
is Indispensable to the maintenance of a free society.
That Earl Warren would become the genius of this extra
ordinary judicial dynamism would have seemed Improbable to
those who knew him and who served with him in his early
Alameda County years; more realistically, such a forecast
would have been considered fanciful. What was there in the
nature and mind of this obscure young prosecutor beginning
his career in a relatively minor public office in a county
that was a small part of that vast terra icognita of the Far
West of the 1920 <3 that was to carry him to the leadership of
the highest and most Important court in all of the world s
Judicial systems?
Perhaps the answer can never be found. The history of the
world is filled with examples of men and women who have sprung
unpredictably from obscurity to positions of great renown and
Influence through the pressure of forces both within and without
that have puzzled historians since the beginning of their
discipline. We live now, however, In an era of electronic
recordation, an era in which the history-conscious scholar and
his associates can seek to identify at least some of the causes
of what we recognize as greatness or potential greatness by
collecting and preserving the recollections and observations
in oral form of those who were contemporary with the pertinent
times.
vi
This collection of Interviews Is part of such an effort.
Beginning as they do with Warren s early years, they provide
us with efc least the opportunity to achieve hindsight and the
chance to discover some of the clues that can now be seen as
Indicators of the accomplishments that were to come.
Two of the young prosecutor s great personal resources
which served him well were his strong sense of integrity
and his abiding desire to maintain his independence from any
influences that might impede, restrict or control his own
freedom to act in the discharge of either public or private
duty.
Integrity without independence is difficult to preserve,
a fact of which Warren was well aware . It was this awareness,
I believe, that led him to an abiding respect for the integrity
and independence of others. "Others" to him, as a public
servant meant the people, not only his peers but the poor,
the downtrodden and the oppressed.
Early in his career as a prosecutor, he was a strong
supporter of the public del ender system and was instrumental
in securing the establishment of one of the first public
defender offices in California in his own county. He was
one of the first to initiate major prosecutions against a
vie 11- entrenched small loan company racket in his state that not
only suppressed their usurious practices in Alameda County
but ultimately led to effective legislative control over
these businesses throughout the state. He directed an im
portant prosecution against a member of a governor s staff
who was engaged in selling executive pardons and thereafter
as attorney general and governor secured the enactment of
a pardoning process that was open to all without cost nor
the necessity for any political influence.
These and many other innovative interests and activities
in behalf of the underprivileged were some indication that
Earl Warren, district attorney, and Earl Warren, judge, were
not as different as many thought and still think today.
"... nothing changed with his accession to the bench. His
greatest decisions, reapportionment, desegregation, criminal
rights were made on behalf of persons otherwise without a
voice, that is, on behalf of the underdog whose plight is
what the American Experiment, in great measure, is about.
The man who fought the Ku Klux Klan in Alameda County during
the thirties was not different from the man who decided that
black children should no longer to ghettoized by their
government."*
"Symposium, Earl Warren, A Tribute, (Wollenberg) 58
CAL. L. REV. 6 (19?0).
vii
And so he wrote in Miranda about the police interrogation
of an indigent, seriously dlstrubed person,
"
. . . such an
Interrogation environment is created for no purpose other than
to subjugate the individual to the will of his examiner. This
atmosphere carries its own badge of intimidation. To be
sure, this is not physical intimidation, but it Is equally
destructive of human dignity."
In Reynolds, discussing the failure of a state legislature
to reapportlon itself fairly, he observed: "Legislatures
represent people, not trees or acres. Legislators are
elected by voters, not farms or cities or economic interests."
Finally, in Roth and Albert , where the court held that
obscenity is not within the area of constitutionally pro
tected speech or press, he expressed his concurrence in the
result but pointed out again the importance of the individual:
"It is not the book that is on trial; it is a person. The
conduct of the defendant is the central issue, not the
obscenity of a book or picture. The nature of the materials
is, of course, relevant as an attribute of the defendant s
conduct, but the materials are thus placed in context from
which they draw color and character. A wholly different
result might be reached in a different setting."
There are other examples that can be drawn from Chief
Justice Warren s opinions illustrative of his concern for the
preservation of the civil liberties of the beleaguered citizen
in an increasingly complex society that also have parallels in
the actions he took and the causes he supported during his
years as District Attorney of Alameda County. It is hoped
that the few that have been noted here will engage the interest
of the historians and scholars of the future as they examine
the contents of the records which follow in their search
for the first expressions of the nius of one of the greatest
architects of American constitutional law*
Arthur H, Sherry
Professor of Law and
Criminology
September 27, 1972
Boalt Hall
University of California at Berkeley
vlli
INTERVIEWER1
S INTRODUCTION
From Its inception, the Earl Warren Project of the Regional
Oral History Office sought to document as broadly as possible
Sari Warren s contribution to the Alameda County District
Attorney s office. The three volumes entitled "Perspectives
on the Alameda County District Attorney s Office" offer a
range of insights into the Chief Justice s career in that
office from 192U to
This phase of Warren s career has been the least well
documented by historians, and relevant written archival
material is spotty. Moreover, as Professor Arthur Sherry
has noted in his introduction to these volumes, a composite
picture of Warren as district attorney Is vital in under
standing Warren the governor and Warren the Chief Justice.
The Oral History Office, therefore, attempted, within
the limits of its funds, to interview as many people as
possible among those who worked in the district attorney s office
with Warren, and those who by the nature of their work were
associated with Warren or had ample opportunity to observe
the functioning of his office. In this latter group the Earl
Warren Project sought to represent as wide a range of opinion
as possible.
It was the Project s good fortune that many of Warren "s
colleagues and associates were still living in the Bay Area
and were willing to be interviewed. The Project s advisors,
as well as the interviewees, were very helpful in suggesting
additional people to be interviewed, but because of limited
funds and time, the Project was forced to restrict the
number of interviews to those representing major functions
of the office and diverse points of view.
To provide a picture of Warren s contribution to law
enforcement and his reforms in the district attorney s
office, a number of former deputy district attorneys were
interviewed. These include Richard Chamberlain and James
Oakley (Oakley died, unfortunately, just after the interviews
were started), both of whom had served almost from the
beginning of Warren s term of office; and J. Frank Coakley,
a long-time deputy who later became district attorney himself
serving from 19^7 to 1969. Mrs. Ralph Hoyt, the
widow of Warren s successor, helped us find the widow of
deputy district attorney Nathan Harry Miller, Mrs. Harry
Balaban , v;ho provides a picture of her husband"s contribu
tion as the office s "labor man." Lowell Jensen, Alameda
County s present district attorney with a strong personal
interest in Warren s administration, was interviewed in order
to provide a current perspective on Warren s reforms in the
oi fice .
Additional insight from former deputies is offered in
two separately bound interviews, one with Professor Arthur
Sherry, a principal investigator for the Warren Project, and
himself a deputy district attorney for thirteen years; and
one with Warren Olney III, a member of the Warren Project s
Advisory Council, who has been continuously and closely
associated with Earl Warren since 19jiU. The reader is also
referred to the separately bound interview with Helen MacGregor,
an attorney who served as top administrative assistant in
Warren s district attorney, attorney general, and governor s
offices.
It was the Project s original hope to interview the two
other woman attorneys in the district attorney s office,
Cecil Mosbacher and Agnes Polsdorfer. Judge Mosbacher, now
in the superior court in Alameda County, indicated that in the
press of her current responsibilities, her memory of her
years in the district attorney s office has all but faded.
Kiss Polsdorfer declined to be Interviewed because of poor
health.
Three other long-time deputies declined the invitation
to contribute to the Warren Project: Robert Hunter because of
poor health; Theodore Westphal s busy schedule left us
no time to interview him; and Folger Emerson declined.
The story of the district attorney s inspectors is
told by Lloyd Jester, whose interview appears in these volumes,
and by Oscar Jahnsen in a separately bound manuscript .
Chester Flint, one of the first Inspectors appointed by
Warren, declined to be tape-recorded. Mow living in a
remote mountain area, he feels as strongly now as he did in
the district attorney s office that Warren did not fully
appreciate the danger of subversives, on the right and the
left. Mr. Flint is in the process of preparing a manuscript
describing his adventures as an Oakland policeman and a
district attorney s office inspector, which hopefully he will
publish or donate to the Bancroft Library.
Three interviewees provide the behind-the-scenes story
of the clerical staff: Clarence Severin, who served as
chief clerk; Beverly Henrichs, who located Mr. Severin for
us, and who was a secretary in the office for a year; and
Albert Ilederman, who wont straight from high school to become
Warren s office boy. Olive Bledsoe, a secretary In the distrct
attorney s office in Warren s early years there, was Invited
to participate in the Warren Project. While she was
considering her participation, however, she moved out of the
area and the Project lost touch with her.
Several interviewees provide an outsider s view of how
Warren functioned as district attorney. A legal perspective
appears In three interviews: Willard Shea, Alameda County s
first public defender; Judge Oliver Hamlln, an attorney in
private practice who had served In the district attorney s
office before Warren, and whom Warren later appointed to
the superior court; and Justice Homer R. Spence, a superior
court judge, later appointed by Warren to the California
Supreme Court. All three men also comment on the political
milieu in Alameda County in the 1920 *s and 30 s, and the
circumstances of Warrer v
s appointment to the office of district
attorney. The political scene including the functioning of
the "Kelly machine," is discussed in greater depth in the
interview Tilth former supervisor John Mulllns, a Kelly man
whoso desertion of that political faction gave Warren the
winning vote when the board of ;
;upervisors elected the new
district attorney in 1925.
Three journalists comment on Warren "s career and Alameda
County politics in general: Mary Shaw, a reporter for the
San Francisco Examiner; John Brucfc, an editor of the San
Francisco Call; and S.A. Daly, the publisher of the California
Voice, the most widely read of the Bay Area s black newspapers
The reader should also refer to other volumes of the
Earl Warren Project for additional insight from special
perspectives. "Labor Looks at Earl Warren" includes the
views of five labor leaders on Earl Warren s career. The
perspectives of three Bay Area black leaders appear in a
separate volume on black politicians. The volume on the
shipboard murder case the King, Ramsay, Conner case
focuses on District Attorney Warren "s most controversial
case, in which three labor union leaders stood trial for
the murder of an anti-union ship s engineer. Several of these
interviews offer the critical insights of left-wing activists
and attorneys.
We especially want to thank Professor Arthur Sherry for
his service to the Project as principal investigator, as
advisor on the district attorney s office, and for his
introduction to these volumes. As an authority on criminal
law, who in his early years served under Warren in the
district attorney s office and later on the California Crime
Commission, Sherry in his introduction combines his personal
and scholarly Insights Into Earl Warren s career.
Miriam Feingold
Interviewer- Edit or
2 October 1972
Regional Oral History Office
4ts6 The Bancroft Library
University or California at Berkeley
Univer of California Bancroft Litrary/ Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
Richard H. Chamberlain
REMINISCENCES ABOUT THE ALAMEDA
COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
An Interview Conducted by
Miriam Feingold
1972 by The Regents of the University of California
Richard H. Chamberlain San Francisco Chronicle
Funeral services will be held
AP ril 19 >
1986
Wednesday for Richard H. Cham
berlain, a retired Alameda County
Superior Court judge who died
Thursday at his Oakland home of
heart failure and pneumonia. He
WMttL
Judge Chamberlain was named .
to the bench by Governor Earl War-
ren, and served from 1953 to 1961
Before that, he was a prosecutor in
the Alameda County district attor
ney s office beginning in 1926. In his
last seven years in the prosecutor s
office, he was chief assistant
He had been a legislative secre
tary to Warren during the 1934 As
sembly session.
A native of Woburn, Mass.,
Judge Chamberlain came to Oak
land when he was 3 years old. He
earned his bachelor s degree from
the University of California at
Berkeley in 1915 and a law degree
from UC s Boalt Hall law school in
1917.
During World War 1, he served
as an infantry lieutenant in Bel
gium and France. He was state com
mander of the American Legion in
1946.
Survivors include his wife,
Louisa of Oakland; a son, Alfred of
Hillsborough, and a daughter, Molly
Coffin of Prescott, Ariz.
Services will be at 1:30 p.m.
Wednesday at the First Congrega
tional Church at 27th and Harrison
streets, Oakland, followed by pri-
vate interment at Chapel of the
Chimes.
The family prefers contribu
tions to the First Congregational
Church, 2501 Harrison street, Oak
land 94612.
CHAMfltRLAIN, Judjre Richard M. - In Oak
land on April 17, 1986; beloved husband of
Louisa H. Chamberlain of Oakland; devoted
father of Or. Alfred D. Chamberlain of
Hillsborough and Molly C. Coffin of Pres
cott, AZ; lovlnc grandfather of Timothy T.
Coffin, Connie Coffin Howett. Kathleen
Chamberlain Stone. Richard Huntley
ChambertafL Oeen Hunttoy Chamberlai rL
teohen Alfred Chamberlain, Robert
Owifht Chamberlain and Bruce Lee Cham-
. :
aie Myears.
Friend* are Invited to attend Memorial
Services on Wed . April 23. ISM, 140 p.m. at
Jhe rifst Congregational Church of Oak
land. 2901 Harrlaon St., Oakland. Contribu
tions In bH memory to the riret Congrega
tional Church Of Oakland are preferred
ALBERT BROWN MORTUARV
3476 Piedmont Ave.. Oakland
Richard H. Chamberlain
TABLE OF CONTENTS Richard H. Chamberlain: REMINISCENCES ABOUT THE
ALAMEDA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
I PERSONAL HISTORY 1
Family 1
Education and Military Service 3
II ALANEDA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE 6
Warren s Appointment 6
Chamberlain Joins the Staff 7
Organization of the Office b
Important Cases 10
Work with the State Legislature 12
The Anti-Racket Council 19
Hiring Policies 22
Masonic and Political Activity 23
Procedures of Criminal Justice 24
Ralph Hoyt and Earl Warren Compared 26
J. Frank Coakley as District Attorney 29
APPENDIX Article from The Panel, Nov. -Dec., 1933 34
INDEX
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Judge Richard Chamberlain was interviewed for the Earl
Warren Project of the Regional Oral History Office in order to
capture his reminiscences of the Alameda County District
Attorney s Office where he served from 1926 until 1953.
Interviewer: Miriam Feingold
Conduct of the
Interview! A single interview was held on March 8, 1971
at Judge Chamberlain s spacious home in the
Oakland hills above the Claremont Country
Club. Mrs. Chamberlain graciously provided
coffee during the course of the interview, and
added several off-the-tape comments about her own
recollections of the period being discussed.
Judge Chamberlain and the interviewer sat in
the living room, in front of a picture window.
The tape recorder microphone was set on a
small table between them.
Several years prior to the interview, when the
Earl Warren Project was being organized, Judge
Chamberlain had been called on for his advice
and assistance. His help proved to be
invaluable. At the time of the interview,
therefore, he was already aware of the purposes
and progress of the Project. A brief written
outline had been submitted to him before the
interview, and he followed it closely. His
precise and careful manner was evident through
out the interview.
ii
Editing: Editing of the transcribed, taped Interview
was done by the Interviewer. Minor rearrange
ments of material were made to maintain
continuity of the discussion without Interrupting
Its Informal quality. Judge Chamberlain
reviewed the edited text and corrected several
minor points.
Narrative Account
of the Interview! Judge Chamberlain s long career In the
district attorney s office spanned the terms of
three distinguished district attorneys. During
those years he advanced from Deputy District
Attorney to Chief Assistant District Attorney,
under Ralph Hoyt and J. Frank Coakley.
Receiving his law degree from Boalt Hall In
1917 Judge Chamberlain began his legal career
working for a private firm In Oakland, California,
where he practiced until January, 1926. At
that time, Earl Warren, recently appointed
District Attorney, and whom Judge Chamerlain
had known at Boalt Hall, Invited him to Join
the district attorney s staff. Judge Chamber
lain describes the organization of the office
and comments on the early Innovations introduced
by Warren .
One of Judge Chamberlain s most important
duties, beginning in 1931, was to attend the
sessions of the state legislature in Sacramento
as a representative of the Alameda County
District Attorney s office. His Job was two
fold: "to watch out for legislation, the effect
of which would be to shift a part of the burden
of financing government . . . from the state
to local units such as the county and the city;"
and "to watch for bills which would directly
affect the administration of criminal Justice."
He worked closely with legislators, and describes
in the interview some of the more significant
pieces of legislation he helped support,
Including the important 193^ state constitutional
amendments. Judge Chamberlain attended every
legislative session from 1931 to 19^-1 and
became, ex-officio, a spokesman for the law
enforcement officials of the entire state.
iii
Assistant District Attorney Chamberlain was
appointed secretary of the Anti-Rackets Council,
part of Mr. Warren s effort to coordinate law
enforcement agencies, both county and state
wide, against the growth of organized crime.
An article from Panel, written by Chamberlain
describing the functioning of the Anti-Backets
Council, is included as an appendix.
Having served under Earl Warren throughout
most of his career as District Attorney, Judge
Chamberlain is able to comment insightfully on
Warren s organizational skills that shaped the
office Into one of the best in the country.
Except for a brief period in 19^3 when he tempor
arily Joined Governor Warren s staff, Judge
Chamberlain remained in the district attorney s
office until 1953 serving first under Balph
Hoyt, then under J. Frank Coakley. He concludes
the interview by comparing the office under
each of these men and under Mr. Warren.
In 1953 Governor Warren appointed Chamberlain
Judge of the Superior Court of Alameda County,
in which capacity he served until his
retirement in 196^-.
Miriam Peingold,
Interviewer
23 October 1971
Jj-86 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
I PERSONAL HISTORY
Family
Feingoldj
Chamberlain i
Feingoldt
Chamberlain i
Do you want to start by telling me something
about your background?
My name is Richard H. Chamberlain. I have lived
In Oakland since 189**- and received my education
In the Oakland schools and later at the University
of California, where I first knew Earl Warren,
who graduated from the University of California
with an academic degree In 1912* continued on
through law school and received his doctor
of Juris degree in 191^. In the meantime I
graduated from California in four years with
an academic degree in 1915* three years behind
Mr. Warren, and went on through, finishing
law school just as the war broke.
I returned from military service in 1919
practiced law
What rank had you risen to in service?
I left the military service with the rank of
First Lieutenant of Infantry after service
with the Army in France. Returning, I commenced
private practice of the law in Oakland In 1920
and practiced until January, 1926, privately.
During the latter part of 1925 a few months
after Mr. Warren or a full year after
Mr. Warren had been appointed district
attorney by the Board of Supervisors, succeeding
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Ezra Decoto, Earl asked me to come to his office
and on my calling on him at the Courthouse, he
Invited me to Join his staff. I accepted his
Invitation and began serving in the district
attorney s office as a deputy In January, 1926.
I continued a member of that office with
one brief interruption which I will cover later,
until September, 1953t when I was appointed
Judge of the Superior Court of Alameda County.
Now, I was Just going to back up a bit and
ask you Just a bit about your family. Were
your parents also from California?
I myself was born in Massachusetts, but my
father moved to Oakland, California when I was
less than six months old. I was one year old
when I came out, a few months later, with my
mother. I ve lived in California ever since.
How did he happen to come to California?
My father came to California because he had
been a member of the Boston stock exchange and
the tension of business, as an investment stock
broker, was such that his doctor advised
that he give it up and select some less demanding,
some occupation which would not in which he
would not have to operate on such a nerve strain.
He therefore chose to come to Oakland, at that
time a growing young city, and engaged in
merchandising here in Oakland, selling carpets
and window shades.
Was your mother also from back east?
After
Yes, my mother was from New England also,
graduating and after returning from the
military service, as I ve already stated, I
married Miss Louisa Fenton Huntley, also of
Oakland, native daughter of Oakland. We
were married in 1920 and have been husband and
wife ever since. Three children were born to
our marriage j Richard H. Chamberlain III, his
sister, now Mrs. Molly Chamberlain Coffin,
living in Mill Valley, and a younger son,
Chamberlain t Alfred D. Chamberlain, a doctor of medicine,
practicing in San Mateo.
Education and Military Service
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How did you get interested in law?
During my youth, in high school, and college,
at our home in Oakland, my father and mother
frequently entertained families of friends of
my father. It happened that my father had some
close friendships with men who practiced law
in Oakland and who were eminent and respected
members of the Alameda County bar. Being a
growing boy, I found myself intensely interested
in and attracted to the practice of law, and so
it was when I was only fourteen or fifteen
years old I decided that I wanted to be a
lawyer.
Were you going to public school at the time?
Yes, I was going to the Oakland grammar school
and high school.
And then your interest Just stayed with the law?
That s right. Yes, that s right. I finished high
school and went on to college and prepared
myself with a pre-legal course to enter the law
school at the University of California at Berkeley,
usually known as Boalt Hall.
I have a question about the military service:
I came across some newspaper clippings from
about 1929 that said that you and Warren were
both about to leave for two weeks in the reserves.
You were, I think, a major and Warren was a
lieutenant. The gist of the article, which was
kind of humorous, was that for two weeks you
were going to be his boss when most of the time
he was your boss.
Well, that was substantially correct. Mr.
Warren left the military service, discharged, I
believe, as a second lieutenant. I came out of
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the service as a first lieutenant. No, I
see by the records [refers to chronology] that
he left the service as a first lieutenant. I
was senior to him and both of us accepted reserve
commissions as reserve officers In the Army. It
happened that my own promotions were, for some
reason, faster than his, not because of any
superior ability but because I was able to
devote more time to military activities as a
reserve officer than he was, he being head of
a busy office. It therefore happened that I
became a major In the Army Reserve Corps and
when Mr. Warren, then a captain, when he and I
were ordered to active duty for a period of
two weeks for each year for several years on
each occasion he, either a first lieutenant or
later a captain, served in the same unit with
me so that I was either a major or, as It
happened In a few years, a lieutenant colonel
In the reserves. While that gave me fifteen
days in the year the right to give him orders,
I exercised that power with restraint. [Laughter]
I can understand. You also mentioned that you
were in private practice? Was that a general
practice?
That s right. I left out only thlst On my
return from military service and my admission
to the bar, and Immediately after my marriage in
1930, I became, for one year, a research secre
tary, law research secretary to one of the Jus
tices of the California Supreme Court.
Who was that?
Judge William P. Lawlor. I remained in that
position for a year and then entered private
practice, which would have been January, 1921, so
that for five full years, until January, 1926,
I was in general practice in Oakland by myself.
Oh, by yourself. I see. Did you handle any
particular kinds of cases?
I didn t handle any criminal cases i I didn t
want to. The defense of criminal cases, then
Chamberlain i and since, has never appealed to roe as a
congenial part of the practice. I was prac
ticing civil law, in other words*
II ALAMEDA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
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And that was when Earl Warren called you into
his office and offered you a Job
That s true. Just a few months after he had
become district attorney by appointment by the
Board of Supervisors.
Warren s Appointment
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Feingold:
Do you know much about the political struggle
that occurred when Warren became D.A.?
Yes, because I was practicing then in Oakland,
although not yet a member of the district
attorney s office. I might add this to what
I ve already saldi I had become acquainted with
Earl Warren when he was a senior and In the law
school, and I was three years behind him; that
would have made me a freshman in college. We
were both on the same campus. I already knew
that I was intending to enter the law school
and I became a friend of his then, although not
an intimate friend by any means. I got to
know and like him at that time. Thereafter I
saw little of him during the war years and,
until we both came back from military service.
He entered public service and I was in private
practice.
Did you know Frank Shay, the other man who
was being considered for the Job?
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I didn t know him as well, although I was
friendly with him. He had been in Decoto*s
office and I believe he was also in the district
attorney s office under Deooto s predecessor
who was Mr. William Hynes. Prank had been in
the office longer than Earl. I had no dislike
for Frank. He was, however, the nominee or the
protege of Mr. Kelly, whom I knew only by sight.
Did you know much about the struggle on the
Board of Supervisors to
I knew nothing of the intimate details of it.
I learned afterward of the way the votes lined
up and I think you have this data somewhere
else, the names of the supervisors and who
voted for Warren and who voted for
Yes, we do.
Chamberlain Joins the Staff
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Do you want to go back to when I entered the
district attorney s office? As I have said, I
entered the district attorney s office under
Earl Warren In January, 1926. I already knew
several of the men already in the office:
Charles Wade Snook became, or was then, Mr.
Warren s chief assistant; Ralph Hoyt had been a
classmate of mine through law school
Oh, I didn t know that.
Donald McClure I had known since high school
days, and he and 1 had served In adjoining
units with the Army in France. I knew Frank
Ogden from my high school days. I found the
personnel at the office quite congenial and I
was put to work from the start on the trial
staff because I preferred trial work rather than
research on the civil side of the office.
c
Feingold: Oh, so you tried civil cases,
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I tried a few civil cases but by cnoioe the bulk
of my assignments consisted of the trial of
criminal cases in the superior court.
I see. Did you work with any other deputies?
I worked with, yes I worked with a number of
the deputies, Wade Snook, whom as I have said I
had known in high school and college Ralph
Hoyt, Paul St. Sure and Frank Coakley.
Organization of the Office
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Did Warren have any kind of special training
that he had put you through, or any of the
deputies?
Not when I entered the office. Keep in mind
that when I entered the office, Mr. Warren had
been district attorney Just eleven months or one
year. Later on he did draft and organize a
brief course of training for the deputies Just
entering the office. I had practiced for
five years and perhaps I was able to pick up
some ability in trial work because of my
practice in civil cases.
Did Warren change the organization of the office
much? In that very early period, was there
much difference between the way he ran it and
the way Decoto ran it?
Well, I m hardly in a position to compare Mr.
Warren s staff with the staff that had existed
under Decoto because I didn t serve under Decoto.
I knew Ezra well, but I wouldn t consider myself
qualified to compare them. I will say thist
yes, I know that there was a reorganization of
the staff when Mr. Warren became district
attorney, or shortly thereafter. He established
a sechedule of meetings of the various members
of the staff. For example, the felony trial
deputies, felony trial staff, would meet on
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one morning . we ll Bay Thursday morning
at 8 i 30 for about an hour, until the trial
calendar was called in court. The inspectors,
under George Helms, would already have met at
Wednesday morning at 8i30j the civil staff
would meet at 8t30 on Friday j and at 8i30
on Saturdays, all of the lawyers in the office
met in a general meeting.
At these meetings, the various problems
confronting the staff would be discussed. Mr.
Warren would comment on the pending cases and
the work that was being done, and also, at the
meetings of the lawyers in the office, the recent
decisions of the Supreme Court and appellate
courts would be reviewed so as to keep the
deputies abreast of the law as it developed in
court decisions.
You found that valuable, those reviews?
Oh, those meetings were extremely helpful. I
think that the record will show the work of the
staff under Warren, Insofar as the volume of
cases was concerned, the speed with which cases
were tried, the number of months elapsing after
arrest and before trial was cut down considerably.
It made the office far more efficient.
How did he do that?
Well Mr. Warren was unsparing in both his
commendation of work when in his opinion it
had been properly performed, and also quite
unsparing of his unfavorable comments, when,
In his opinion, a particular task had not been
properly performed. That had the effect of
keeping the deputies and the inspectors on their
toes.
Did you ever find yourself the recipient of
unfavorable comments?
Oh yes, I can t claim to have been perfect at
all! And while Mr. Warren was able to pinpoint
one s delinquencies, we understood that he was
doing so with a desire to make his office as
efficient as possible.
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Some of the people that we talked to have said,
Mr. Warren Olney particularly
Well you ve talked to Mr. Olney before
Yes.
He was not in the office, had not begun the
practice of law when I entered the offIce .
But he said, of the period that he was there,
the thing that he remembered as being very
important was that Warren had a rule that
deputies could not ask for continuances. That
was one of the ways that he saw to it that
cases were tried very quickly and there was
no delay.
Chamberlain That s true. A deputy had to prepare his case
so that when the case was actually called for
trial he could answer "Ready" with the confidence
that his witnesses had been Interviewed and the
case was thoroughly prepared.
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Did that rule, did that sort of practice come
right from the beginning of Warren s taking
over the office?
I don t know that it did. I would say that in
this post, as in every other post that he has
occupied, Mr. Warren developed as the years
went on. While from the start his office was
a splendid place for a young lawyer to start,
and certainly was a very efficient office, new
techniques and rules had to be, and were,
developed and rules were amended and developed
from time to time.
Important Cases
Feingold: What particular cape did you find yourself
involved in or was the office particularly
involved in when you first came?
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Any particular case you mean?
I was wondering what the big case was. Was
Sheriff Becker over by the time you came?
Oh no, oh no. The Becker case didn t come
on or start until 1928 or 1929, and I entered in
1926. I cannot say that I recall each one of the
cases that I tried.
I note in the chronology that you have
prepared, that in January, 192? a man named
Prudencio was tried. I recall very clearly that
I tried that case, although senior to me in
actual court was Mr. Paul St. Sure because he
had served in the office longer than I.
Paul St. Sure and I tried the case and I
think it was a surprise to most people when
the jury s verdict was a death penalty verdict.
Although St. Sure and I believed, at the time,
that It was a cold blooded, premeditated murder,
and the Jury apparently agreed with us as
indicated by their verdict, the judge believed
while he believed that Prudencio was guilty* d!4
not believe that he should suffer the death
penalty, and the Judge, taking the bull by the
horns, changed the judgment from guilty of
first degree murder to guilty of second degree
murder. It was clear to Mr. Warren and us, who
tried the case, that the Judge had no Jurisdiction
to make such an order and the State Supreme
Court sustained our position. It was an
Interesting case. It was the first case that I
tried in which the Jury imposed the death
penalty.
I can t say that
Was that also the first time that a judge had
changed the verdict in a case like that?
It was the first time that I had know of it,
yes. As noted in the chronology, however, our
successful appeal to the State Supreme Court
did not mean, did not result in the death
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Prudencio because while the case was pending in
the Supreme Court on appeal, the legislature
enacted a law giving the Judge the power to
reduce the penalty from death to life Imprison
ment. When the case came back to the superior
court with the expectation that the death penalty
would be imposed in accordance with the Jury s
verdict, the law had been changed. [Laughter]
I was not assigned to the trial of any of the
cases which developed out of the so-called
graft investigations and prosecutions beginning
in 1929 and 30. One of the most interesting
duties that I had while on Mr. Warren s staff
was my assignment, by Mr. Warren, to attend
the legislative session beginning in January
1931.
Work with the State Legislature
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Yes, I wanted to ask you about that.
I was sent there, with the approval of the Board
of Supervisors, and had a two-fold duty
to perform while I was attending the legislature.
The first, and most important phase of my work or
the field in which I was engaged, was to watch
out for legislation, the effect of which would
have been to shift a part of the burden of
financing government, the cost of government,
from the state to local units such as the county
and the city. For some years the legislature
had been accustomed to reduce state costs by
merely shifting the burden, certain burdens,
onto the counties. The Supervisors wanted me,
and I made it a point, my duty was, therefore,
to oppose any bill which would have that effect.
The second part of my duty was to watch for
bills which would directly affect the adminis
tration of criminal Justice, to support bills
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which would fairly aid law enforcement officers
in their task and to oppose bills which would
make law enforcement more difficult, which would
tie the hands of law enforcement officers.
Can you remember any particular bills that posed
a great threat?
Well, the bills in general were bills which
were introduced at the request of certain
agencies such as, for example, the gambling
interests.
There were various assemblymen who would
Introduce, and press for passage, bills which
would hamper law enforcement officers and favor
the bail bond brokers. They always had a
bill before the legislature at each legislative
session which would make it possible for them to
recover the amounts of bail which had been
forfeited to the public treasuries of cities
and counties when persons accused of crimes
failed to appear for trail or sentence. To
attempt to describe all the bJills that my duties
called upon me to support or oppose, I don t
think I could do that.
I Just wondered if you remembered any particu
lar ones.
Later on, chronologically, in 1933 and
did have considerable to do with the drafting
and enactment by the legislature adoption by
the legislature I should say of the four
constitutional amendments which are briefly
commented upon In this chronology.
I neglected to say I started this legisla
tive work in 1931 and I remained in Sacramento,
living there five or six or seven days a week while
the legislature was in session. Mr. Warren
paid me the compliment of thinking that my
work, in that respect, was so effective that it
became a somewhat permanent assignment; acting
for him and for his successor, Mr. Hoyt, I
attended every legislative session beginning
with 1931 and continuing through
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representing the district attorney s office lor
Alameda County and, so to speak, ex offloio,
being a spokesman for the law enforcement
officials of the entire state the district
attorneys, chiefs of police, and sheriffs.
Then you got to see quite a range of
legislators
That s right. I became acquainted with, it
was my business so to speak, to become acquainted
with, all the members of the legislature and
while my acquaintance with some of them, those
who had the bills which I was opposing, was
rather brief, nevertheless I made some lasting
friendships during my stay there.
I might add thisi in those days the
legislature had Its regular sessions not every
year, as they do now, but only every other year,
in the odd numbered years. In December of every
even numbered year, preceding the legislative
session, the district attorneys, sheriffs, and
chiefs of police, or their executive committees,
would meet in Mr. Warren s office and would
review the changes that they wanted made to
aid their work, the legislation which they
wanted to propose and support, and also the
bills they wanted to oppose as unwise. I
acted as secretary on those occasions and tried
to carry out the mandates that were there adoptedi
Could you describe in any more detail those
constitutional amendments that you helped draft?
Yes. Three of them are referred to briefly
under the year 193^. In 1933 if I m going to
go over this chronologically I ll first discuss
this By 1933 Mr. Warren had become convinced
that the machinery of state government needed
some reorganization. In that respect he enlisted
the support of the state Chamber of Commerce
and other civic organizations in drafting and
pressing for the adoption of four constitutional
amendments. The first one was the amendment
I might add that all four of these amendments
were adopted by overwhelming majorities at the
general election In 193^ the following year.
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They were however, In Mr. Warren s mind in 1933
and as I say, the drafting of them occupied
considerable time. I had the Job of drafting
them and revising the various drafts after
various conferences.
The first one I mentioned was the creation
of the state personnel board and the state civil
service organization which is still a part of
the constitution, although it has been amended
in various particulars since that time. But,
in large part, the organization of civil service
in the state government of California was due
to Mr. Warren s foresight and his activity in
that respect.
The second constitutional amendment was
the reorganization of the attorney general s
office and the establishment of the attorney
general as the chief law enforcement officer
of the state. That amendment is still in
the constitution. It made the attorney
general, ejc-offloio. the supervisor of law
enforcement throughout the state and gave him
the power, when he thought it appropriate, to
intervene in any investigation or prosecution
In tfiich he believed that the district attorney s
office of any particular county was either
unable or unwilling to enforce the law.
Was Warren, at that point, thinking at all of
going for the attorney generalship?
I don t think anyone can doubt that, Mr. Warren,
at that time, having been elected and reelected
district attorney in 1930 i he had already stood
for election and been elected by the people of
Alameda County as district attorney. I think
he was already looking forward to going on to
higher office and I am sure, yes, that he
envisioned standing for election as attorney
general as soon as the incumbent, Mr. Webb,
General Webb, saw fit to retire. Mr. Webb had
been Attorney General of California for upward
of thirty years.
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a third one was the constitutional amendment
which provided that a person accused of a felony
in any court of the state ( could, with the
consent of the district attorney and the Judge,
plead guilty in the lower court before the
committing magistrate. Oddly enough, it would
seem that such a person might have had that
power for years but such was net the case. A
man who realized that it was hopeless to
expect to be able to "beat the rap," so to speak,
that the charge against him was supported by
the evidence and that it was hopeless to elude,
to evade or avoid conviction many of them
wanted to plead guilty and get it over with as
soon as possible. But over the years, up to
that time, 193^- they had to come before the
committing magistrate, have a preliminary
hearing and not for perhaps two or two and a
half months or more would they come before the
superior court where they could enter their
plea of guilty.
The fourth constitutional amendment was one
which provided that in any criminal prosecution
the prosecutor could comment upon the failure of
a defendant to deny by his sworn testimony
before the Jury, any evidence against him and
his failure to deny or contradict an opposing
witness? that that could be considered, his
failure to take the stand could be considered,
by the jury and the prosecution could comment
upon it. The law had been up to that time that
that was not permissible. Interestingly enough,
it was while Mr. Warren was Chief Justice of the
Supreme Court that the Supreme Court held that
that was not due process of law. But In 193^
the slogan of the campaign for the adoption of
these amendments by the people the slogan
at the election was "curb crime I." It was an
alliteration whlch^proved to be quite effective.
Keep in mind also, if I m not mistaken, this was
Just after the Lindbergh kidnaping and a few
other kidnaping incidents when the people of the
United States, all over the country, were
becoming alarmed and very much aroused about the
prevalence of organized crime*
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Was there any particular arguments about that
amendment that allowed the prosecutor to comment
on the failure of the defendant to testify?
There was no organized opposition that I recall.
The vote was overwhelmingly in favor of it.
I don t believe that the State Bar took any
position either for or against it. I know they
didn t take any position against It, and It seems
to me I have a recollection that they supported
it. It would be Interesting to look over the
records in some law library j they would have the
pamphlet which was sent out to the voters just
before the election, containing the arguments
pro and con on all the propositions that are on
the ballot. It would be Interesting to see who,
if anyone, signed an argument against these
propositions. I can t recall any such argument.
There was another amendment that was passed
at about that time that allowed the Judge to
comment on the evidence to the Jury.
Yes, I don t know why I overlooked it. That was
a part of the same measure which allowed the
prosecution to comment on the failure of the
defendant to testify. Included in that was a
phrase putting the state courts on a par with
the federal courts in which the Judge has always
been able to comment to the Jury upon the evidence.
It was in that same proposition.
Is that still true?
Yes. It has not been extensively used, but a
Judge in California now has substantially the
same power that a federal judge has always had,
the power and the right to tell the jury, providing
he does not he must not urge the Jury to
convict or acquit as far as that goes. But
he has the power to tell the Jury that the
testimony of a single witness does not seem to
him reasonable; It may be a prosecution witness,
it may be a defense witness. The object was
to give to the Judge the opportunity, when he
wanted to and saw fit, to give the Jury the
benefit of his years of experience so far as
witnesses were concerned.
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Didn t some people argue that if there was
any unfairness at all in that that it was
because the Jury would be unduly influenced by
the Judge s words?
Oh, two or three, a number of cases went up to the
state Supreme Court after that. In one or two
of those cases the holding was that the Judge
had not fairly exercised that power and the
convictions were reversed. But in most of the
cases that went up, the records showed that
when the trial Judge had given to the Jury
his comments about the evidence, at the same
time, he had impressed the Jury that they were
not bound by his comments, that the Jurors must
come to their own conclusion, even though they
differed with the Judge? and the convictions
were affirmed.
As I remember from reading, the ship murder
case was the first case in which that was
used. Judge Ogden commented on the evidence.
I recall that case although, as noted in this
chronology, Mr. Wehr tried it, I didn t. But,
I don t think that was the first case. I
may have my chronology One of the first cases
that Mr. Olney participated in when he came
into the office was the Gosden murder case. Did
he tell you about that?
Yes.
Well then I won t tell you. But I think Judge
Ogden, the trial Judge in that case, I think
he commented on the evidence In the case and the
case was upheld. I don t find it listed in
here.
Yes, that may have been the case.
You were describing your legislation work
in Sacramento, do you want to continue that?
It was a very interesting experience for me
throughout the years, and particularly In the
years beginning in 1939 and extending through
the session in 19^1 when the governor of
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California was Mr. Olson, Culbert Olson. In
those legislative sessions there was a bitter
and extended controversy over the state welfare
laws controversy of which I am reminded in
these days, when one reads in the papers about the
attacks on the alleged over-liberality of the
regulations. In those years the counties were
hard put to it to prevent the excessive cost of
welfare cases being saddled on the counties
rather than upon the money taken out of the
state treasury. I was fairly active in that.
What, specifically, did you do?
Well it meant watching those bills up there, many
of which would have enlarged the eligibility for
welfare aid. I had to keep in constant
communication with the welfare directors in
the various counties throughout the state.
The Anti-Racket Council
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You left legislative work shortly thereafter,
didn t you?
Yes, 19*H after the 19^-1 session I felt that
so far as my personal preference was concerned
I had "had it" as far as attending the legislature
was concerned. I wanted to, I much preferred the
work of a lawyer trying cases and Mr. Hoyt
being district attorney at that time, I told
Ralph that I would prefer that he assign
someone else to attend the legislative sessions,
beginning with the next legislative session,
which he did. I became Mr. Hoyt s chief
assistant district attorney at that time, and
remained in Oakland.
You have handed me a xeroxed or reprinted
copy of a page from The Panel, November - December,
1933 and it refreshes my recollection about the
organization of the Anti-Backet Council in
Alameda County.*
*See Appendix I.
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Chamberlain:
Feingold:
Chamberlain:
As indicated on this reprint, I was secretary
of that Anti-Racket Council, as Assistant
District Attorney of Alameda County under Mr.
Warren. I don t know that I have anything to
add to this. I see someone has made a pencil
mark in the margin opposite a portion of it,
indicating that there f
s a question as to the
identity of the man who was "an
Inspector of
the district attorney s office, also devoting
his entire time to the work." My recollection
is that that man was, yes I m sure I m right, Mr.
Chester Flint. Have you interviewed him?
Mr. Olney
I haven t seen him for years.
He s up in northern California.
Trinity County.
Yes.
That s right.
He hasn t been well. He s had two heart
attacks over the past few years. Mr. Olney is
going to interview him for us, as soon as the
snow melts.
Oh, good, because he knows Chet Flint very well
and it would probably be best that someone
interview Chet Flint whom he had known before.
He would have a fund of information. I don t
know that there s anything that I desire to add
to this. I recall having written this and
that s about it.
How did Warren get the idea to set it up? Do you
remember?
I can only say this. I don t think I could say
where he got the idea. In my opinion he didn t
get it from any outside agency. Mr. Warren has
a mind that is a very fertile source of original
ideas, and over the years, I don t think that
21
Chamberlain i
many projects which he sponsored and originated
had come to him from any other source They were
measures to which he had given considerable
thought and of which he was entitled to be called
the original author. Of, course, what was behind
the Anti-Racket Council was the prevalence of
organized crime throughout the United States and
the attempts of organized crime and gangsterism
to conduct their operations within every metro
politan area, and particularly In Alameda County.
It was Mr. Warren s idea, gleaned I m sure
from his experience as a law enforcement officer,
that, of course, organized crime didn t
observe any geographical or political boundaries;
that what was needed was a state-wide Anti-Racket
Council in Alameda County. Among the personnel,
I can t off-hand name all the men, it would be
impossible to name all the men who were on the
Anti-Racket Council, but it was a list of those
who were regarded in the" community as the leaders.
I see there, where the names of only a few are
given here, the positions are given and it s a
pretty elite list of men who, representing
various organizations, who were Interested in
keeping organized crime out of Alameda County.
I would say this, I m reminded by the article
which you Just showed me that throughout Mr.
Warren s incumbency as district attorney of this
county, I would make two comments. In the first
place, the support of the two newspapers in
Alameda County, The Oakland Tribune, which is
still published of course, and the Oakland
Post-Enquirer, which ceased publication some
years ago he had the steadfast support of
both of those locally published newspapers in
the various projects that he undertook. He had
the Cooperation also of the two San Francisco
newspapers, The Chronicle and The Examiner,
each of which had its own East Bay edition. Two
more papers I might mention i The Berkeley Gazette
and The Alameda Times-Star. That support was
invaluable.
I would say this too. Having lived in
Alameda County all but one year of my life, I
22
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can remember, as a youth, the moral atmosphere
of the community. While It has never been In
any way a community which tolerated, much less
approved, of commercial vice of any kind, never
theless the moral conscience of this community
was awakened, as never before, by the activities
of the district attorney s office under Earl
Warren. This county owes a great, great debt of
gratitude to Mr. Warren for those years, when
he was district attorney. He was, I think,
responsible more than anyone else for the clean
record of Alameda County so far as crime was
concerned.
Were you Involved at all In any of the Prohibition
cases?
Well I tried some cases under Prohibition. I
tried cases where a man, or group of men, were
charged with the operation of stills and the
illegal sale of liquor, yes.
Hiring Policies
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Your mentioning the community reminds me that
several people have said that Warren made a
special point when he hired deputies to try to
get a very broad cross section of people in the
community and people who were members of various
organizations.
I would differ to this extent i he was hopeful,
of course, of attracting people into his office
who might be people, men and women, of Italian
or Portuguese descent, for example i I mention
those because there was quite still is quite
a group of people living in Alameda County,
southern Alameda County, the descendents of
Portuguese immigrants from one hundred years ago.
Well that was desirable in his mind.
But the first and all important consideration
in his appointments to the office was the ability,
23
Chamberlain i the integrity and the ability, of the men
involved. There were instances of people whose
names were suggested to Mr. Warren as being
it was suggested that taking John Doe, for
example, into the office would be very helpful
because it would mean a lot of votes for Mr.
Warren from a certain group in the community.
That never appealed much to Mr. Warren, I know.
On the other hand there were men who came into
the office who had no acquaintance whatever
with any politically conscious group of any
kind but who proved their ability as prosecutors,
Masonic and Political Activity
Feingoldt
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Did you know much about Warren s activities in
the Masons?
Yes, I did. Quite a bit. He and I are both
past masters of our lodges. He and I belonged
to the same Masonic bodies all the way through.
Which lodge were you a past master of?
I m a past master of Piedmont Lodge where I
lived, and he is a past master of Sequoia
Lodge, a much larger lodge, in Oakland. We
both belong to the Oakland Scottish Rite bodies
and we both belong to the Shrine; he being a past
potentate of the local temple here. He was
highly respected, of course, in the organiza
tions.
Were you also active in the Republican party as
he was?
Fairly so. I didn t have a great deal of time
to devote to it, but yes, I was on the Republican
Party County Central Commllttee for a number of
years.
Felngold: When was that, what period?
Chamberlain i
Feingold:
Chamberlain:
That would be beginning 1932 to about 1935*
Three or four years.
I m continually amazed at how much Warren was
able to do* He was active In so many different
areas!
He accomplished a great, great deal,
almost Inexhaustible energy.
A man of
Procedures of Criminal Justice
Feingold
Chamberlain i
Feingold
I have a few general questions about what
Warren s policies were In regard to things like
questioning suspects.
His policy was that Immediately or as soon as
possible after a man was arrested, he ought to
be questioned by the police and In Important
cases by the police Inspector, and questioned
about the material facts. In the more Important
In every murder case or In every case where a
murder had been committed and a man was arrested,
If and when the police concluded that they
had the right man, the district attorney s
office ought to be notified and immediately, one
of us would go to the jail where the prisoner
was and interview him with a stenographer. We
didn t have tape recorders in those days but
with a stenographer and he d take a statement
from him.
Now while Mr. Warren was on the Supreme
Court, the Supreme Court decided that you
couldn t do that. Or, put it this way, to be
accurate! The Supreme Court decided that no such
statement could be used In evidence unless the
man s attorney was there or unless he d been
warned. But that waan t the law when we
operated in the district attorney s office.
What about Warren s feelings about using things
like secret listening devices and evidence collected
through them?
25
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He never to my knowledge, he never countenanced
that. "Bugging" they call it, bugging rooms.
I recall instances where it occurred, and one
was in later years, where it developed that a
public official s room had been equipped,
unknown to him, with electronic listening
devices
What case was that?
It wasn t any criminal case. It was a case of
a man named Phllbrick who was an employee of
Governor Olson s, and who admittedly had "bugged"
the office of the speaker of the state assembly.
Attorney General Warren condemned that in the
strongest terms. [Interruption]
Others may have told you this, but it
was when we were working on a case and especially
during the early stages of the case, Just after
the suspect had been arrested and after he was
being Interviewed, or before he was interviewed,
right through to the time when the evidence
was all collected, we were expected to and we
were ready to work night and day. Cases could
be to illustrate that, men, and the girls
too, had to work on into three, four, five
o clock In the morning interviewing and all
that, during Investigations and preparing for
the next day s trial.
I can. imagine if you had the policy of being
prepared to present the case at any time the Judge
set the date, that you d have to do that.
Yes, that s true. Perfectly true.
We were talking about "bugging" rooms and you were
describing the Philbrlck
Oh, electronic devices?
Yes, and you were saying that a situation had
developed in later years with Philbrick.
Oh, a man named Philbrick was employed by
Governor Olson to "bug"
the office of the speaker
26
Chamberlain i of the assembly whose name was Garland at that
time. The device was when I say Mr. Phil-
brick admitted doing It, the device was discovered,
I don t recall that any material Information
discreditable to Mr. Garland was ever elicited,
but the mere fact that the device had been
Installed and that someone expected to use It
aroused Mr. Warren s Indignation.
I remember that. That occurred while Mr.
Warren was attorney general and I was not on
his staff at the time, but I was In close touch
with him. I was still attending the legislature
and although Mr. Hoyt had become district
attorney, nevertheless my relations were very
close with Mr. Warren, as attorney general.
Ralph Hoyt and Earl Warren Compared
Feingold :
Chamberlain:
Felngold:
I d like to ask you what Hoyt s office was like
as compared to Warren s.
What was that?
I d like to know what Ralph Hoyt was like as a
D.A. as compared to Warren?
Chamberlain: Oh, I see, I m skipping here now [refers to
chronology] to January 19^3 when Mr. Warren
became governor, and you list his staff
there s one position that you don t list here.
Feingold:
Chamberlain:
I occupied that position [laughter] on his
staff, and it might throw some light on it.
I m sorry we left that out I
In 19^3* January, Mr. Warren s staff when he first
became governor, included, in addition to the
positions and persons listed on this chronology,
which T won t stop to repeat, included the
position of legislative secretary. The duty
of that position was to be the contact between
the Governor and members of the legislature, and
particularly to examine the legislation which
27
Chamberlain was enacted by both houses of the legislature
and which came to the Governor for approval or
veto. That position was originally occupied by
Mr. Laurence Carr who Is still practicing law In
Redding, California. He accepted the appoint
ment and Joined the Governor s staff In January
19^3- However, that was during the war, and
Mr. Carr received notice from his draft board
In February calling him Into military service.
February, when that notice was received and
Mr. Carr had to leave, was in between the
January session of the legislature and the
reconvening of the legislature in March. I
don t know whether you re familiar with the
procedure that prevailed at that time. Each
California legislature held a session in January
for about three weeks, during which all or
99^ of the bills were actually introduced. The
constitution then provided however, that none of
those bills could be acted upon until after a
thirty day recess of the legislature, during
which time the people of the state could
examine the measures and decide whether they
thought they were good or not.
At any rate, during February, 19^3. Mr.
Carr had to leave on very short notice, and Mr.
Warren telephoned down to me to ask if I would
Join his staff and occupy that position, I
presume because I had been a fairly successful
advocate representing him before the legislature
for years. My reply was that I did not want to
uproot myself from Alameda County where I had
lived all my life up to that time, and that I was
perfectly happ/ in the district attorney s office
in Alameda County with Mr. Hoyt, but that if he
felt he needed me and I could help him, I would
be glad to come up for a limited period during
the legislative session, because I realized
that he was in a kind of a bind not being able
to replace Mr. Carr on such short notice.
So I acted as the Governor s Legislative
Secretary from March 1, 19^3 to the end of June,
by which time the legislature had adjourned
and the Governor had either vetoed or approved
all the legislation presented to him. So I was
a member of his staff for those four months.
28
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Feingold:
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Chamberlain:
j knew what was going on in the Governor s
office but I think Judge Swelgert have you
talked to him Mr. Sooggins
Yes.
Well either of them and Miss MacGregor could
tell you more than I could about what went on
there.
Right. Mrs. Fry, who is head of the Warren
project, has been interviewing them.
All right.
Could you talk some about Mr. Hoyt s office as
compared to Mr. Warren s office.
Mr. Hoyt was an entirely different, was equipped
with an entirely different personality, of course,
than Mr. Warren. I would say this about the two
men: I would say that Mr. Hoyt was invaluable
to Mr. Warren as Mr. Warren s chief assistant
district attorney, because Mr. Hoyt was one of the
most competent and brilliant lawyers that I have
ever known. His advice on legal matters was
invaluable to Mr. Warren because frequently Mr.
Warren, on a legal proposition, didn t have the
time himself to examine the legal questions
involved and he would depend, he grew to depend,
on Mr. Hoyt s ability to analyze a legal
situation.
Consequently, Mr. Hoyt made an excellent
district attorney. He was a good trial lawyer.
I think he lacked the shall I call it the
"flair" for drama that Mr. Warren had in court
and out of court? I don t like to call it a flair
for publicity. Mr. Hoyt also received the
wholehearted support of the local press when he
was district attorney. Mr. Hoyt was an excellent
administrator.
I think, in some respects, possibly, one
would say then in those years, although it would
be a dangerous hazzard, that perhaps Mr. Hoyt
29
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had demonstrated, had a greater opportunity
to demonstrate his competence as a "pure"
lawyer rather than as an administrator.
Certainly he didn t have the opportunity to
demonstrate his aptness for- the political field
as Governor Warren did. But he ran an excellent
office. The record of the office during Mr.
Hoyt s career as district attorney was, I would
say, equal to that during Mr. Warren s
Incumbency. Probably it was because Mr. Hoyt
inherited, I think, an excellent staff from Mr.
Warren. Most of us stayed with Mr. Hoyt.
Several, however, accepted Warren s Invitation to
join the attorney general s staff in San
Francisco. By the way, one of those is still
living and certainly ought to be interviewed
Mr. Westphal. Anyone interview him?
Not yet. We re about to interview him.
By all means you should. He s just retired,
you know, within the last six months.
That s right.
And he s living over in either Alamo or Danville.
He crossed the Bay to be with Mr. Warren, and he
stayed on and became the second in command of
the attorney general s office through two or
three administrations. Mr. Kenny, Mr. Howser,
Mr. Brown, and Mr. Lynch.
Did Mr. Hoyt make any changes in the D.A. s
office?
I couldn t say that he didn t make any changes
but I don t recall any that changed in any way
the basic organization of the office as it had
been established by Mr. Warren.
J. Frank Coakley as District Attorney
Feingold: And did you serve under Mr. Coakley also?
30
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Feingold:
Chamberlain i
Feingold:
Chamberlain:
Feingold:
That s right. When Mr. Coakley became district
attorney In well, Mr. Hoyt was appointed by
the Governor to the bench In 19*f? and at that
time the Supervisors appointed Mr. Coakley
to succeed him as district attorney, and I
continued on as his chief assistant district
attorney until I was appointed to the bench In
1953* Frank and I have always been close friends
too. It was a shock to me to learn Just yester
day that he d had this heart attack.
It s a shock to me too because I Just spoke
to him less than a month ago.
I m afraid he s been courting disaster for at
least a couple of years. He s been over
straining his physical energy. After all,
we re all getting older. Frank Is younger than
I but he seems to be perfectly unaware of any
limit to his energies.
Yes. I was just completely awed by all that he
was doing. He had Just come back from Houston
from the college of district attorneys.
How did he compare as a D.A. to Hoyt and
Warren?
Well I m not sure that Mr. Coakley had the same
genius for organization that Mr. Warren and Mr.
Hoyt had. In some respects he himself was a
much more vigorous and aggressive prosecutor
himself than Mr. Hoyt. Of the two men, given
the same case and the same state of facts, I
would expect Mr. Coakley to be much more aggressive
than Mr. Hoyt. Mr. Hoyt every lawyer has his
own, depending on his personality has a
different technique in court. Mr. Hoyt had a
rather quite demeanor, a demeanor however, which
impressed Juries very favorably and inspired
confidence In him. Mr. Coakley, if I can use a
figure of speech, used the sledge hammer more
than the rapier.
I know some people said that he was like a
bulldog with a case.
Chamberlain: Yes, that s right. His tenacity is that of a
bulldog. Still is. [Laughter] Persists in it.
31
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Chamberlain :
Feingold:
Chamberlain:
Feingold:
I was speaking to the widow of Nathan Harry
Miller.
Oh were you? Is she still living around here?
Yes. Mrs. Hoyt got me in touch with her.
Is that true?
Yes. It was a funny set of coincidences. I
had called Mrs. Hoyt to ask a very simple
question about Nathan Harry Miller. Somebody
had said that Mr. Miller was the labor man in
the D.A. s office and I wanted to check out what
that meant.
He was. He wasn t a delegate but he came from
the ranks he carried a union card. But
that wasn t the reason why he was a successful
deputy. The reason was that he, in his quiet
way, he knew nothing of clocks j he d work Just
right around the clock.
But Mrs. Hoyt said well, she couldn t really
answer the question but she would get me in
touch with his rabbi or the widow of the rabbi.
Yes, because his rabbi died some years ago;
that was Stern.
That s right. Well, several days later I got a
call back from Mrs. Hoyt saying that she had done
better than to find the widow of the rabbi, that
she had found Nathan Harry Miller s widow, who
had Just recently moved back from L.A. to Rossmoor.
Oh she s living in Rossmoor, too* Do you
recall her name?
Balaban.
Odd name. Is she still a widow?
No. She has a new husband, whose name is also
Harry.
And you ve interviewed her?
Yes.
32
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Felngold:
Chamberlain:
He wasn t the success at trial work that Mr.
Coakley and others were. Anything else you
want?
I was Just trying to think. Were you at all
Involved In the Bessie Ferguson case?
No. You see, as noted here, Bessie Ferguson s
corpse or remains, were discovered before I
entered the office i somewhere here I note oh
here It Is In September, 1925, and there was
some Investigation. I had no part In that
whatever.
In connection with that, we keep coming across
references to the KKK as being somewhat active In
Oakland In that period.
Mr. Becker, I think, was admittedly who
became sheriff was admittedly a KKK. I
notice here "pressure from vigilante s group
for prosecution" In the Ferguson case. I don t
recall any such pressure. But there again, that
was In September 1925* I never felt pressure of
that kind.
I think what that refers to Is that Warren was
about to run for office and one of his opponents
was Preston Hlgglns
Oh, that s right.
Who was city attorney about then and he used
that as an election Issue.
I wouldn t be surprised. You see Mr. Warren
first ran in 1926 and by that time I had Joined
his staff.
I m rather surprised [referring to
chronology] not find in here much mention of
the so-called graft cases that were prosecuted by
Mr. Warren during the year 1930. Because he
prosecuted, not only did he prosecute Sheriff
Becker for bribery and two of his deputies
likewise for bribery, but he also prosecuted
33
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one of the city commissioners in Oakland for
bribery in connection with street work. Did
you come across that?
Is that the paving scandal?
That s right. Oh, you knew that. By the way,
have you interviewed Mr. Jahnsen?
Yes, yes, we have a wonderful long interview
with him.
I bet you have.
Transcriber: Emily Ross
Final Typist: Gloria Dolan
APPENDIX
THE PANEL NOVEMBER-DECEMBER / ,.?.?
ALAMEDA COUNTY FORMS MODEL ANTI-RACKET COUNCIL
By RICHARD H. CHAMBERLAIN
Awittant DUtrict Attorney of Alamtda County, California, and Secretary of the Anti -Racket Council
Alth,-u : ;h . rimr is tht most important
subject \n t*r United Stairs, m-xt In the
deprtssion. Tug PANKL tht only pub
lication of i(um/ .list- null *n devoted
solely to ertme. imprmemmts in the
criminal law and procedure and coynate
subjects. Mufh useful matter which
should yo t<< those warring upon crime
never reaches them.
An illustration \s ike present article
which tells how Alametia County. Cali
fornia, formed on June 16. 1933, the
Anti-Racket Council of Alamtda Coun
ty, nor is it generally known that two
weeks later a California State Anti-
Racket Council n<a.f
formed.
Such information is valuable as a
means of inspiring similar efforts m
other localities am/ Tm PA MEL is
pleased to give space to this illuminating
article by Richard H. Chamberlain, As
sistant District Attorney for Alameda
County and secretary of tht Council.
His outline nj the history and methods
of the nrganicatian may result in cities
or counties m other States following tht
same cf-irse.
Th,- atldress / the Council is Court
Hanse. OaHanJ, Calif.
Alameda County contains three larye
iitiea, -.i-hich makes the significance of its
Anti-Kacketeerinp Council all the greai-
er. According to the census of 1930,
Oakland, the county seat, had a popula
tion of 284063; Rerktlev, home of tht
University of California, Au-.f 82.W and
Alameda W
I- or a l<wig time il Kx been a nutter of
grave concern to all , iti/ens and law en
forcement officials that the shadow l rack
eteering and ifangMeriM-.i an <<.. the laivl lias
steadily lcnthenu Man sections ot our
country, both urban ami rif. . are now com
pletely under the f.iinai v;f this system
while others arc \uf.y tainted b>
it both
government* II, *-^ rtonom- caily, nn;l still
others offer *ttr* t
although tho>
arc- -
from its innur< *
It is to this Uv
Alainrda, with a
lion, brt-H.i-.s at .-
county i* now ir
rackets Hue t-: >i
net. -* >( the system,
free
r County of
half a mil-
-
That the
.;-ulat.. i
; resent
ally Iree trom serious
mdivi<ltial efforts of the
county i.iVials .ir.. ;!-.,
police authorities of
the ten munici(>a!n
. in the county.
Without further :-
eguards, however, there
can be no *sstiran.u that this condition will
continue exist Racketeering is merely
another n*me for .anized crime, and or
ganized tritne can be prevented only by or
ganization ,>f the taw-abiding elements of
any community Th< establishment of an
"Anti- Racket Count!" was therefore pro
posed early n June * 1933.
Competition <rf the Council
On June 16. 1933, the Anti-Racket Council
of Alameda County w< formally organized
with the first meeting oi an Executive Ri>ard
composed of the following
The Chiefs of Police of the three largest
cities Alameda, I!crl.ele>, and Oaklaixl; the
Sheriff, representing the smaller communities
and the unincorporated territory ; the Dis
trict Attorney; the Agent -in-Charge at San
Francisco of the Bureau of Investigation of
the U. S. Department of Justice,
In order that not only the confidence but
the support of the most important lay groups
in the community might be assured, the
Executive Board also includes a represen
tative of labor (the Secretary of the Central
Labor Council of Alameda County) ; a rep
resentative of business (manager of the Oak
land Chamber of Commerce) ; a representa
tive of the agricultural interests (the presi
dent of the Alameda County Farm Bureau) ;
and the publishers of the two largest news
papers in the County (the Oakland "Trib
une" and "Post F.n iuirer"). District At
torney Karl Warren was elected president of
the Council, Chief of Police James T. Drew
of Oakland, vice-president, and the writer,
secretary. The Secretary devotes his entire
time to the development of the organization,
and with him is an Inspector of the Dis
trict Attorney s ( >ffice, :ils<>
devoting his
entire time to the work.
Articles of Association were adopter! at
the June meeting. The object of the Asso
ciation was generally stated in those articles
as follows :
". . . Thf militant purpose of annbat-
infi racketeering and uangsterism in every
form in Alameda County, to the end that
it may permanently remain free from the
menace of organised crime."
Laymen Take Active Part
In order to enlist the active cooperation of
every organization and public officer con
nected with law enforcement in Alameda
County, formation of an Advisory Board was
decided upon and invitations extended to
every Chief of Police in Alameda County,
other than those already members of the
Executive Board ; representatives of Federal
officers and State law enforcement officers,
and the adult and juvenile probation officers.
It was also decided to include in this Ad
visory Board additional representatives of
business, labor and farm organizations and
the press as the occasion arose.
The Council is now engaged in securing
the active help of every worthwhile business
and civic orjjanization in the county, and
is building up the general membership from
such organizations. Every line of business if
being canvassed to determine whether racket*
are preying upon them, and every trade asso
ciation in the county is being requested to
ih<
tor
-h
r-
pledge itself and its member* t !
(1) Not to comply with any
ate demands of any character,
(2) To notify the Council of <ny
demands, or of any other eviden. i
ganized crime within the industry
Kvery trade association and civi< -ran
ization which has reported to date 1-aj ,,">tr-
ised its hearty and complete cooptni-.-m
this regard, and also in regard t
;*"
..windles.
Plan of Operations
The Council has tentatively actH up ^
plaa of operations including: fir*t, ,m <
<
hanstive study of rackets and racketce iiie.
both local and national; it is proi^i-.. t"
learn the methods by which th- V^T : >
racketeers and the swindlers :UA <p
throughout the country, in pri-i -i*
every form of legitimate busin- . ..>
agriculture.
An intensive study of all rarkct *H
have heretofore been encountered . >
county is being made. By way , t;ikr .,-
inventory of the local crime situation a file >A
all public enemies in the county is liemn
prepared, including their pictures, finger
prints, crime records and those of the asso
ciates of every known or strongly-suspected
racketeer or swindler.
In the field of preventing tlie e^abl:-h-
ment of gangsterism in this community, the
Council serves as a clearing lv>usf for .1!!
complaints and reports which indinte I Vat
organized criminals are attempting <
cstab
lish themselves. A record will br kept -f
every complaint made, the action taken ther
on, and the disposition thereof. Basr.*
these complaints and on the rt\* ?-. i tv<{
from Police Departments, bulletins will !*
prepared and sent to the various lav. <
forcement establishments throughout thr
county, as well as those M- adjacent ecootit -
and to the San Francisco office ff ih !~ti<
cral Bureau of Investigation.
State- Wide Council Formed
As the activities of the Council cit>inie it
is expected that facts will be developed show
ing the necessity for new legislation amend
ing the present criminal procedure aitd the
substantive criminal law. This will entail
the drafting of such legislation.
Inquiries have cotne from other communi
ties with reference to the organization pur
poses, and the functioning of the Council.
In every case such information has been fur
nished as might be of assistance in the for
mation of Anti- Racket Councils in those com
munities.
Within a week following the organization
of this Council a state-wide anti-racket Coun
cil was launched in San Francisco.
35
INDEX - Richard Chamberlain
Alameda County District Attorney s Office
Cases, 10-12
Criminal procedures, 16-18, 24-26
Hiring policies, 22
Legislation work 12-19
Organization, 8-10
Speed in trying cases, 9
Alameda Times-Star, 21
Anti-Racket Council, 19-22
Attorney General, California, 15t 26
Balaban, Edith, 31
Becker, Sheriff Burton, 11, 32-33
Berkeley Gazette, 21
Carr, Laurence, 2?
Chamberlain, Alfred, 3
Chamberlain, Richard
Anti-Racket Council, 19-22
Appointment to District Attorney s office, 2, 6-8
Cases, 11-12
Education, 1, 3
Family, 2
Judge of Superior Court, Alameda Co., 2
Masonic activity, 23
Military service, 1, 3-4, ?
Political activity, 23-24
Private law practice, 1, 4-6
Service in governors office, 26-28
Work with state legislature, 12-19
Working under Ralph Hoyt, 19
Chamberlain, Richard III, 2
Civil Service Commission, California State, 15
Coffin, Mrs. Molly Chamberlain, 2
Coakley, J. Frank, 8, 29-30
Constitutional amendments, state, 1934, 13-18
Criminal Procedures, 16-18, 24-26
Decoto, Ezra, 2, 7, 8
36
Ferguson, Bessie, 32
Flint, Chester, 21
Garland, Gordon, 26
Gosden murder case, 18
Helms, George, 9
Higgins, Preston, 32
Hoyt, Ralph, 7-8, 13t 19, 26-30
Huntley, Louisa Fenton, 2
Hynes, William, 7
Jahnsen, Oscar, 33
Kelly, Mike, 7
King, Ramsay, Conner case, 18
Ku Kltuc Kian, 32
Lawlor, Judge William P., 4
Legislature, California State, 12-1^, 27
Lindbergh kidnaping case, 16
Masons, 23
McClure, Donald, 7
MacGregor, Helen, 28
Miller, Nathan Harry, 31-32
Oakland Post-Enquirer, 21
Oakland Tribune. 21
Ogden, Frank, 7, 18
Olney, Warren, III, 10, 18, 21
Olson, Gov. Culbert, 19, 25-26
The Panel. 19
Paving Scandal, 33
Personnel Board, California State, 15
Philbrick, Howard R. , 25-26
Press, relations with, 21
Prohibition, 22
Prudencio, Jesus, case, 11-12
37
Republican party, 23-24
St. Sure, Paul, 8, 11-12
San Francisco Chronicle, 21
San Francisco Examiner, 21
Scoggins, Vemon, 28
Shay, Frank, 6-7
Shipboard murder case - see King f Ramsay, Conner case
Snook, Charles Wade, 7
Stem, RabtJi, 31
Sweigert, William, 28
Warren, Earl - see also Alameda County District Attorney s Office
Appointment as District Attorney, 1, 6-7
As governor, 26-28
Chief Justice, 16, 24
Compared with J. Frank Coakley, 29-30
Compared with Ralph Hoyt, 28-29
Constitutional amendments, 1934, 14-19
Education, 1
Election of 1926, 32
Masonic activities, 23
Military service, 3-4
Organization of office, 8-10
Webb, U.S., 15
Wehr, Charles, 18
Welfare, 19
Westphal, Theodore, 29
University of California Bancroft Library/ Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
Lloyd Jester
REMINISCENCES OF AN INSPECTOR IN THE
DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
An Interview Conducted by
Miriam Felngold
1972 by The Regents of the University ol
1
California
Lloyd G. Jester
1966
TABLE OF CONTENTS Lloyd Jester: REMINISCENCES OF AN INSPECTOR
IN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY1
S OFFICE
I FAMILY BACKGROUND 1
II WORKING FOR THE BUREAU OF PROHIBITION 3
III JOINING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF 13
IV ORGANIZATION OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE 16
V THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S DEPARTMENT OF INSPECTORS 22
Organisation and Administration 22
Gambling and Bootlegging Raids 25
Investigative Aids 28
The Page Murder Case 30
Tl^e Shipboard Murder Ca.se 33
The Brooke Ha,rt KidnaP-Iturder Case 3b
The Gosden Murder Case 3b"
The Mausoleum Case 41
The Kidnap Squad and the Racket Squad 44
The Mills Company Gambling Raid 46
The Inspector s Job 4tt
Matt Warren Murder Case 50
Gambling Ship Raid 52
VI POLICE CHIEF OF ALBANY, CALIFORNIA 54
VII POLICE CHIEF OF FARGO, NORTH DAKOTA 56
VIII RETURNING TO ALAMEDA COUNTY 5
AT
IX EARL WARREN AND J. FRANK COAKLEY COMPARED 60
X WARREN: FROM COUNTY PROSECUTOR TO CHIEF JUSTICE 65
XI COURTROOM STYLES 68
INDEX 71
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Lloyd Jester was interviewed for the Earl Warren Project
of the Regional Oral History Office in order to document his
active and colorful career as an inspector in the Alameda County
District Attorney s office.
Interviewer i Miriam Feingold
Conduct of the
Interview! A single interview was held on November 20, 19?0
at Mr. Jester s home in Hayward, California.
Mr. Jester and the interviewer sat at the
kitchen table, with the tape recorder microphone
set on the table between them.
Prior to the interview, Mr. Jester had gathered
together a collection of photographs and
newspaper clippings dating from his days with
the U.S. Department of Justice s Bureau of
Prohibition and with the Alameda County
District Attorney s office. He referred to
several photographs and clippings during the
course of the interview, and apologized that
he had not been able to locate all of his
records. Mr. Jester kindly donated most of
the photographs and clippings to the Earl
Warren Collection in The Bancroft Library.
A written outline had been submitted to Mr.
Jester before the interview, and he used this as
a base from which to reminisce about his
adventures in investigating crime. He spoke
in an informal and candid manner, and
ii
recalled with remarkable ease events of twenty
and thirty years ago,
Editing i Editing of the transcribed taped Interview
was done by the Interviewer, Minor rearrange
ments of material were made to maintain the
continuity of the discussion without Interrupting
Its Informal quality.
Mr. Jester very carefully reviewed the edited
text, corrected several minor points, and
added a few remarks to amplify or clarify
his original comments.
Narrative Account
of the Inter
view! Mr. Jester began his career in law enforcement
with the Buresu of Prohibition of the U.S.
Department of Justice in 1929* He relates
colorful stories of raids he made on stills
and bootleg Joints, commenting on the difference
In standards of evidence demanded in the state
courts and federal courts. He describes how
bootleg liquor was manufactured and supplied to
the customer.
Mr. Jester first met Earl Warren when the
District Attorney provided the federal
"Prohides" with office space in the district
attorney s office. This arrangement gave the
federal agents valuable office space and
use of a telephone, and promoted cooperation
between county and federal law enforcement
agencies.
When Prohibition was repealed, Mr. Jester
was asked to Join Mr. Warren s new investigative
staff. He describes how the district
attorney s office was organized, noting
several of Mr. Warren s Innovations. Mr.
Jester comments on the organization and
administration of the Department of Inspectors
and the close cooperation that existed between
the deputy district attorneys and the
inspectors.
iii
Among Mr. Jester s first adventures in the
office were large scale raids on Chinese
lotteries and gambling establishments in
Emeryville.
Mr. Jester played an investigative role in
several notorious cases, and his comments shed
light on procedures of criminal investigation
acceptable in the 1930* s. He himself made
one of the arrests in the shipboard murder
case and helped uncover information the evening
of the murder that led ultimately to the
discovery of the guilty parties* He also
played a part in the Brooke Hart kidnap-murder
case, the Page murder case, the Gosden
"Bluebeard" murder case, and the Mausoleum case.
When Mr. Warren became Attorney General, Mr.
Jester left the district attorney s office and
was elected police chief of Albany, California.
Wartime service Interrupted this, and after the
war he served for a short time as police
chief of Fargo, North Dakota. Homesick for
Alameda County, however, he wrote to J.
Prank Coakley, then District Attorney, and
secured a place for himself again In the
Department of Inspectors, from which he
recently retired.
Throughout the interview, Mr. Jester comments
insightfully on his colleagues inspectors
and deputy district attorneys. Having
served under two district attorneys, he
concludes by comparing the district attorney s
office under Mr. Warren and Mr. Coakley.
Miriam Feingold,
Interviewer
23 October 1971
^4-86 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
I FAMILY BACKGROUND
MFi We like to start with a little background on yourself
so people know where you came from.
Jester: There s not much background on me* I was born in
Montana, Missoula, Montana, July 25, 1906. I was
orphaned at age three and I was raised by some people
by the name of Steele, John W. and Eva L. Steele in
Los Angeles and Los Angeles County. My education was
eleventh grade* I enlisted in the Navy in 1925*
MPi What made you want to Join the Navy?
Jesten Well, Mr. Steele had been a railroad man all his
life. He d gone out on a railroad strike. He
didn t get his Job back. Then he went out into the
country in San Gabriel Valley and bought a little
chicken ranch. Things weren t going too good, so
I Joined the Navy for a living, for a livelihood.
That s about that.
Nothing happened in the Navy, except in 192? I
got married. My wife was an orphan, also, by the way.
So It seemed natural that we would get married . My
daughter was born, my first child, Gwen, in 1928.
1 decided then that Instead of staying in the
Navy I d go out into civilian life. I went to the
local post office. The only civil service examination
that was posted on the board, the only one going at
the time was in the Department of Justice. There
were several branches In the Department of Justice, and
the Bureau of Prohibition was one of them. They had
an examination on at the time so I took it. I wanted
to have something to come out to. I passed it*
[Laughter] Then, in those days, you received a
Jesten certain percentage for being in the service. This was
added to your score.
MPi
MPi
MFi
They still do that.
Jester t My grades plus service percentages were over a hundred
percent but there were still a lot of applicants ahead
of me. In any Instance, I was discharged from the Navy
and went on into the Department of Justice and that
was that.
What s your wife s name, by the way?
Jester: Leona.
Did you Just have one child?
Jesten No, we had two. After I was out of the Navy, on
May the 30th my son Jack was born John* always
known as Jack. We sent both of them through
universities. Both have good college educations and
they ve done real well in the world. We re very proud
of them.
II WORKING FOR THE BUREAU OP PROHIBITION
Jester i Anyhow, getting back to this thing, as I recall, It
was In May of 29 that I went Into the Department of
Justice, Bureau of Prohibition. I was sent from Los
Angeles to San Francisco and I was In the San Francisco
office for a while* The nearest I can figure out at
this time, It was so long ago, I moved over Into
Mr* Earl Warren s office, that Is, the district
attorney s office of Alameda County for the purpose
of office space for the Department of Justice, east
bay branch of the Bureau of Prohibition, some
time In the early thirties. Possibly, It could have
been In the latter part of 1929* But the nearest I can
recall It would have been right about that time, the
early thirties. I remember because at the time we
were making some bootleg raids around Emeryville.
[He reaches under the table for some pictures.]] I
think I ll give you some photographs here, and let
you look at them. They are the "Joints" bootleg
places In Emeryville. You never saw a "blind
pig" bootleg "joint," did you?
MFi No, no. That was before my time. [Laughter]
Jestert Obviously It was.
MFt These are raids that you made for the Department of
Justice, or for Earl Warren s office?
Jestert Some of them were for the Department of Justice, and
some of them were for the county. Now here s the
way that thing went.
A federal prohibition agent could take the
particular case arrest Into the local court or
he could take the accused Into the federal court,
either one. As a rule It was his choice to make.
MF: How did you decide?
Jester: "Well usually this was governed by the type of the case.
Now, at that time, by state law the query was not, "How
did you get your evidence?", but rather it was, "What
evidence have you got?". That is, in those days it
was that way; that was the state law in those days.
In other words, if you d come in with evidence of a
crime having been commltteed, the state courts didn t
go into the proposition of "How did you get this
evidence? How did you come about having this in your
possession?", but rather they Just said, "Well,
here s the evidence, and there s the guilty party."
In the federal court, however, we were bound by
the Fourth and the Fifth Amendments, all of the
constitutional amendments, in fact. You had to get
this evidence without violating, in the slightest
degree, any one of these possible constitutional
rights. Now the only way that you could get have
a crime committed in your presence according to the
federal rules, was by the use of one of your five
natural senses, which was feel, taste, smell, sight, and
hearing. If the particular thing happened within your
hearing or you saw it happen and so forth in your presence
by use of any one or all of thos e natural sense, then
the crime could be committed In your presence.
For example, let s take a still, one that was
located out In the country like this one [shows picture
of bootleg stills], this picture, see. Here s a gate
and It says "No Trespassing" and so forth, see?* The
still is in a barn, way back In the back there where
you can t see It from the road. Here s the close-
up of the barn taken after we got in and made our case.**
MF: Yes, you wouldn t even know that there was anything
going on there.
Jester: No. So how would you be able to raid this still, and
obviously we did because here s the pictures of it in
the barn, as proof. How would you be able to raid
this?
*A11 photographs referred to in this interview are on
file in Bancroft Library. See photograph A.
**See photograph B.
Jester i Well, here s one procedure. They, the operators, had
to have supplies going into this still and they had to
haul the produce out. Some of the supplies were these
five gallon cans that you see here In this photo, these
five gallon cans were used to haul the alcohol, the
produce out.* They would have to go In empty and come
out full, wouldn t they?
MF Yes.
Jester i
Sugar would have to go In and yeast would have to go
In to make the mash. We could follow a truck from a
sugar distributing point or from the Continental
Can Company or the American Can Company or wherever,
to some farming place like shown here In this photo.**
If It was cans we knew they wouldn t be feeding the
cans to the hogs! If It was sugar; It was a possibility,
you know, possible but not probable*
In this case you d have to use. two or three
probable causes. Now If you could set an odor of the
fermenting mash this would, added to the cans and
sugar going In, be probable cause. So you could go
all around the area, up In the hills, drive around
at late and unusual hours or In the early morning
hours, usually when the air was heavy, to try to get
an odor of fermenting mash. That would be one
natural sense, "smell."
Now that you have already seen the cans going
in and obtained an odor of mash, if a load of alcohol
cans came out and it went someplace -- say to
Emeryville or to a garage in San Francisco or anywhere,
and you had the good fortune to be able to follow it
and see the alcohol in the terminal, or maybe an arrest
would be made there by local authorities to prove it was
alcohol coming out, then you d have a good federal case.
But you would still have to get a search warrent; you
used your natural senses for probable cause for the
warrant. To get a search warrant in federal court
you have to particularly describe the places to be
searched and the things to be seized. This is hard
*See photograph C.
**See photograph D.
Jester i to do, as anyone will agree.
All right, by comparison. Now If this were a
state case, If you were going to take this case Into
state court, In those days, all you had to do was
wait your opportunity, go over the fence, go on In
and "knock the thing over* this was a term used
for raid In those days. Then make your arrests,
make your seizure, the court would only ask, "What
evidence do you have?" and not, "How did you get It?"
You see that was the difference In those days.
The same thing would apply towards bootleg
Joints, a bar catering to the public. When you d
see bootleg joints running, with the barred doors,
peep holes, etc., people going In sober and coming
out under the Influence, you didn t need a ouija
board to tell you that It was a bootleg joint, although
the law was still quite a sticky wicket on that
subject as far as the federal law was concerned. In
many of these cases we d go In and knock It over on
the state proposition and we d take It Into state
court and be done with It.
[Showing some photographs.] Here are several
places of like nature, barred doors, peep holes,
plants and bars. This Is one on Adeline Street,
3622 Adeline.* This was the door to the plant and the
serving room. This is what it looked like inside.
Now here s another bootleg Joint down in Qneryville.
You see they had It In a vegetable garden area. They
tried all manner of disguise, but anyone could tell it
was a joint. This place was under abatement, 5860
Beaudry Street, when this picture was made.** See, when
I made these notes, this was a good many years ago.
Here s the people, the barred door; they d come in
through the barred door. The peep hole was used to
first identify the customer, and not admit an officer.
Here s what a bar looked like inside one of those Joint st**
*See group of photographs labeled E.
**See photograph P.
***See photograph G.
Jester*
MFi
Hooch come in these kind of bottles, you see* It
wasn t like today. These were bootleg bottles. This
is a bar from inside herej that one is at 4216
Holden.
Here s a deputy sheriff, one of the raiding
party at 1268 - 65th Street.* His name was
Terry he s dead now.
Here s some people inside a Joint.** This
one was at 1281 - 64th Street. This was what the
inside looked like. You remember Cliff Wlxson, used
to be supervisor in Alameda County? Well he was
running for what was he running for Assemblyman
or Supervisor at that time? Assemblyman , I think.
There s one of his campaign posters up there. He s
dead now, Cliff is. His son s still around.
But that s the serving room and this is the
way the people dressed. That s the way they looked
in those days. A lot of these people, it s not at
all amazing, went out and they became very successful
businessmen.
This is on Hollls Street.*** Oh, here s Wixon,
he s running for Assembly. Mike Driver is the sheriff
now In Alameda County and they want to reelect him
here i they ve got election signs up to retain him,
see? [He Is referring to a picture of inside a
bootleg place which had campaign posters on the
wall.] That s on Hollis Street.
Prank Ogden had a campaign poster in one of these
pictures. I wonder what he was running for.
Jester: Judge, superior court Judge.
*See photograph H.
**See group of photographs labeled I.
***See photograph J.
8
Jester i Here s Floyd Gallo s placet he turned out to be very
famous.*
MFi Who Is this?
Jestert Gallo. Floyd Gallo.
These are Joints In Emeryville. There s old
George Hard from the D.A. s office.** He s dead
now. There he Is writing up this bootlegger with
his booze, evidence. I ve this picture as evidence,
also. He s got Exhibit A In his pocket. [Laughter]
[Picture shows Hard with a bottle In his pocket.]
That would be all you d take, you d dump the rest.
You d just take a pint of it, that s all, just enough
for evidence.
Here s Batto s place on the southeast corner of
Hubbard and Park.*** Bight next door was a house of
ill fame run by Marie Jones. Marie and Batto were
supposed to be living together.
Alongside this piano was a door and a passage
way, led from this Joint into the place next door.
They had that door barred, also.
A lot of the kids from Boalt Hall remember a
lot of that stuff. A lot of these lawyers and people
around here, judges and this and that, when they were
going to law school up at Gal, they knew some of
these places.
Now here was one that we took for Prohibition.****
That was one we made a federal case on. Otherwise we
wouldn t have come up with that picture and identified
it that way.
*See photograph K.
**See photographs labeled L.
***See photograph M.
****See photograph N.
MF: Yes, it has a Prohibition Identification on it.
Jester i That was one that we took to federal court. All
of these here went to state courts. I mean by that,
went to Emeryville Police Court. Very few Indeed
made the Superior Courts.
MFt You didn t have to have as strict standards of
evidence?
Jester: No, no. The evidence that you produced in court was
what counted, at least in those days, not how you came
by it.
This is what s called a "cutting plant."*
Here is where they take the alcohol that comes in
the five gallon can and mix It with distilled water
in these barrels, see. If it s going to be whiskey,
they ll color it with burnt sugar and so forth and
with coloration. There is an electrical rod, an
aging bar* An electric cord comes on it.
MF: Yes.
Jest en That gets very hot. They put that down through the
bung In the barrel. They put It in tight. This
heat from this rod is supposed to age it, age this
whiskey. Now If they want gin, why they Just put
Juniper berries In, cut with water, and to hell with
it! They don t age that. But they could make
scotch and all other types, you know, in these barrels.
That s called a "cutting plant." From there the
bootleggers bottle it. There were four steps in the
production and sale of bootleg liquor. It went from
the still, to the cutting plant, to the bootlegger
and Joint, to the customer.
Then you see the stills. This still was like
this first [shows picture of undamaged still]*** and
when we got through with it we chopped It up
*See group of photographs labeled 0.
**See group of photographs labeled P.
10
Jester i
[shows picture with stills full of holes from axe
and pick blows] it looked like that.*
There were some dangerous cases where they used
an old hot water heater for a coll. Here s what it
looks like when we got through chopping it up.
This is for the cooking.** They have the pot
itself up on bricks here, the copper pot, and they
have a stove heater under there that puts the fire
and heat to it. The flame heats it up and causes
the mash to evaporate and the evaporation goes up
through the copper baffel plates in the column.
There are little divisions it has to go through.
Each division has a certain number of holes with
little copper cups over the top of each. This catches
the evaporation (steam). Finally it cools enough
and drops as liquid, goes into the "try" box. From
that it is put into the cans. A "try"
box is where
they gauge the percentage of alcohol.
See these stills? Some of them are tremendous
in size and would turn out a heck of a lot of alcohol
a day.
The still was the source of supply, and the federal
government and the Prohibition agents, by and large,
were out after the source of supply, that is, the
stills and the cutting plants and that sort of thing.
However, the general public, at least the WCTU, the
churches, etc., was making such a ruckus and hollering
about the bootleg joints so that you had to go in
there and make a big splurge, knock off a few bootleg
joints and satisfy the general public and the church
folks, see. But I can point out to you this, that if
we knocked over one great big still like this, that
was turning out several thousand gallons of 190
proof alky a day at the source of supply, we were
doing a better Job even though it took us a longer
while to locate and to make a powerful enough case to
satisfy the federal court. We did more good that way
than going out and knocking over dozens of these bootleg
Joints a night!
*See group of photographs labeled Q.
**See photograph R.
11
Jesteri But here again you came Into the proposition, why
did we do It? Well, here s Earl Warren, here In
Alameda County, a very vigorous prosecutor, a
politician responding to the church and WCTU folks.
Therefore, he s got his own active staff set up to
go out and raid these places. The federal courts were
charged with the responsibility, regardless of how
large or small It wast that Is, to enforce Prohibition.
In the spirit of cooperation with Mr. Warren and
with his people, we would get together and we d go
out and we d raid these places, or If I and my crew
went out alone and raided the place we would turn the
case over to the state. Because the federal government
wasn t In the business of making money from the fines,
turning a case over to the local court was never
questioned. It Is still a fact that In the small
towns like Benlcla, Emeryville, Oakland, and many
others, they depended a heck of a lot upon these
fines they received from these Prohibition cases to
help them In their expenses of government. They
never admitted It then and many deny It now, but It s
the truth.
For Instance, we went up and we raided In
Benlcla. Then we turned all the cases right over to
Benlola court. The Judge *d come down In the middle of
the nighttime, and he waxed eloquent. He dispensed
Judgments In all directions. Everybody who d come In
was guilty and then he had a set fine of $250 or
whatever It was. This Is In Depression days and that s
a pretty good size of money. It didn t take many of
these bootleggers to build the coffers of the city up
to the point where It paid the Judge s salary for a
year, you see, and It helped out. They appreciated
It. That let them off the hook because their local
authorities hadn t Initiated this action against the
local citizens, the Federals did It.
They viewed this the bootlegger himself, that Is,
this bootlegger who d been taken Into Benlcla or
Vallejo or Emeryville court, whatever It was they
viewed It very much the same way as the city fathers
did, that It was the same as a license. They figured,
well, they could stand they call them "busts" now
today, but In those days we called them "knockovers"
they could stand so many knockovers a year, pay
their fines the same as buying a license, and think
no more of it.
12
Jesten
MF:
Jesten
But if you arrested them more than three times, they d
start screaming like a banshee* They would say things
like, "Gee, you
1
re getting me all the time! Why
aren t you getting so-and-so?" But they didn t mind
coming in and paying up a fine once In a while* What
they feared most was more than three convictions on
one place, which meant facing a chance of abatement*
I remember one time we had a fellow by the
nickname of "Peanuts." I don t know what his real
name was* He was a bartender* He tended bar for the
Fegonis during Prohibition. He d done so for many
years. Well it was no fun arresting "Peanuts"
towards the end, because you could Just as well knock
at the front door and say, "Peanuts, come on out. I m
going to take you in and book you." And he d do it!
So there was no sport in it anymore, and I suppose
that that s why "Peanuts" went so long between
arrests [Laughter] I don t know. OK. Well, this is
from what :
a far cry you re after.
Well now, you see, I went Into his [Warren s]
office. He furnished us office space. At the time I
first went into his office there were four or five
of us Federals. I was in charge.
Now you were still with the Department of Justice, is
that right? You were Just using office space in
Warren s office?
That s right. In other words, we were sharing space
in the inspector s office, the district attorney s
inspector s office. We were using space Just as though
we were inspectors although we were federal Prohi
bition agents. This gave us a place to receive telephone
calls, it was a place to receive our mall and messages,
this and that.
When I first went in there, I know I had as
agents Lee O Hara, Johnny Bike, and a man by the name
of Thompson I forget his first name. Maybe there
were one or two others, I forget. That was when I
first went in there.
Later on It became bigger. When the new post
office building in Oakland was completed, they
furnished us with quarters there. That s when we
moved up there. When Prohibition was repealed, that
was where we were officed.
13
III JOINING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF
MFi Did that leave you without a Job, when Prohibition
was repealed?
Jest en No. They repealed Prohibition, but they set up the
Alcohol Tax Unit, which still exists. The people in
the Bureau of Prohibition, the agents, were given
all kinds of opportunities to transfer here and
there within the federal government. For Instance,
Bob Wells went Into the Secret Service. Ted Meyers
stayed with the Alcohol Tax Unit and became the head
man of it before he retired. Some other people
became gaugers. You know, in the distilleries, they
have federal gaugers. They went into various and
sundry things.
I was taken by Earl Warren to fill in Charlie
Blagbourne s place after Prohibition was repealed,
while I was still with the Alcohol Tax Unit. We
were still winding up some of the old federal cases
that were still hanging fire in federal court by
the time that I went with him.
The way I come to go with him is Charlie Blagbourne
died and Warren knew me from my having been in his
office. Oscar Jahnsen and Captain George Helms of
his inspector detective force knew me. They
recommended me, apparently, and, well, he wanted me
and telephoned me asking if I d Join his staff. I
said, jes, I would. However I wanted time to finish
off the federal cases I had hanging fire. He told me
to go ahead, but he wanted to make an announcement for
political purposes that he hired somebody to take
the vacancy, he was like that.
Jester:
MF
He was always watching out for his Image and not
letting anybody get Into the point of enbarasslng
him. In short, Charlie Blagbourne died this evening j
he was hiring somebody to take that place right now.
The following morning, before anybody would ask a
question like, "Hey, I ve got a man for you," or
"I d like to ," you see, and he d have to turn
them down or he d have to take somebody he didn t
want. He was like that.
There s a lot of things about him that were good.
I think that was good, primarily because It affected
me, but I think It is smart when you analyze it that
he could still retain a friend who would like to get
somebody a Job. This friend would have to wait for
the next vacancy to develop and Mr. Warren would be
afforded time to properly handle the situation.
He d have time to sweat out how he s going to cross that
bridge if the time ever came! But in this instance
he didn t. He did those things. In other things it
was obvious, his ability to cross his bridges even
before he came to em.
He was a good politician then?
saying?
Is that what you re
Jester: Best single-handed politician the county had ever
seen! The best single-handed politician that Alameda
County has ever seen! He was good. He was good at
that stuff, believe me I
We speak so much of Emeryville, although we did
raid throughout the county. Emeryville seemed to be
the focal point. They had a chief of police there,
that Warren s office was sort of putting the
pressure on.
Mr. Warren had some difficulty with a sheriff by
the name of Becker before my time there. I recall
having heard so much about the Becker case, and their
sending him to the prison. I m not sure but I kind
of felt from what I d heard about it, the Becker
case and the ball bond scandal is more or less tied
in together. I don t know. Maybe not.
MFt The paving scandal was tied in to it.
Jester i The paving scandal was yet another thing, I think.
15
Jesten I believe so. I tell you who will be an authority on
that Is Prank Coakley.
MFi Oh really. On what, the Sheriff Becker thing?
Jesten On Becker and on the paving scandal and on your ball
bond scandal, and your Bessie Ferguson case, because
I ve heard Coakley discuss this thing so many times.
There were a lot of angles to this thing that he and
he alone knows and can answer.
16
IV ORGANIZATION OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
MFi Could you tell me a bit about how the office was
organized?
Jesten You see, in the line of authority or succession in
that office at the time I hit there, Ralph Hoyt was the
chief assistant to Earl Warren. J. Frank Coakley came
under him. As a matter of fact Richard "Dick"
Chamberlain and Coakley were more or less on a level,
on a par. Chamberlain was on the civil side and
Coakley was on the criminal side, you see. Now the
same way with Bob Hunter. Bob Hunter was on the
civil side. Now you know what I m talking about,
civil and the criminal side?
MF Yes.
Jester t All right. Now that s [referring to civil side] out
of the office. They have the county attorney now.
MF That s right. They have a separate county counsel
who handles all the civil matters.
Jester t That s right. So the civil end of it is out of the
district attorney s office. But It was there in
those days.
Coakley has a very good memory. There is
available in the district attorney s office if you
don t forget this when you re talking to him, a
book of cases, "Short Stories," and he can always
refresh his recollection from the short story. Now
what we had a habit of doing in that office now
this goes back to Earl Warren s, it might even go
back to Ezra Decoto s time, but they were using
it when I was there is that when a case came
into the office, in other words a case has been through
17
Jesten
MFi
Jester:
MPi
Jesten
the police court and it s now submitted to the superior
court and comes to the district attorney s office they
would write up a short story.
For a long while a young lawyer by the name of
Oil e Hotle was writing these short stories. He was
dictating them into a dictating machine and they
would be written up on a form. What he would do is
abbreviate everything. In other words, he d tell the
whole case history on one page of a short story, if at
all possible.
Just so it could be right there for people to glance
at.
Just like the label on a bottle. It d give you the
content in Just a few words. Provided Mr. Coakley
has forgotten about a case or part thereof, he has
access to those "short stories" because they go
clear back in the archives. Now he is the one that
I would strongly urge you to see in regards to Bessie
Ferguson, the bail bond scandal, the paving scandal
and another one that you ve missed In there in the
scandal they had right at the time I came into the
office. It had to do with an oil refinery.
Was that the Gollett oil swindle?
[Trying to recollect]
to do with that*
I don t know, but Coakley had
Getting back to how things were being done in
that office at that time. You ve got the picture of
where I was in the federal force before I came in
there with him and the inspectors. You had the two
sections you had the civil and you had the criminal.
Then you had the secretaries or stenographers pool
that was used by both criminal and the civil and the
inspectors. Then there were some of these people
doing specialties.
For instance, J. Frank Coakley and Cecil
Mosbacher she s now a superior court Judge were
two of the absolute best on frauds, buncos, corporate
security cases and so forth, and conspiracies.
Coakley was a great hand to charge a conspiracy, if
at all possible, when you had more than one accused
In one of these involved corporate securities cases
or fraud cases.
18
Jester i Mosbacher and he were two of the very best on that.
Then you had another lawyer In there by the name
of Leonard Meltzer. He was absolutely the best
criminal lawyer on his two feet that ever hit that
office. He was short In stature* He was Jewish and
had a lot of things that would ordinarily detract
from him. He was a snappy dresser. But once he
started talking, he opened his mouth and started
talking, you saw a lion. You saw a mammoth person
there. He was terrific. He was on criminal matters
of all kinds and descriptions, but as a general rule
Charlie Wehr is the one who handled the murders and
the homicide cases.
So that was the way the thing was divided up.
You had your inspectors, headed by Captain George
Helms. Oscar Jahnsen was the lieutenant and that
was it.
/
There s one thing that I can t pass up here,
and that is that there was a fellow by the name of
Rlley that wrote the Free Press. Did you ever hear
of the Rlley Free Press?
MFj
Jester:
MFi
MFi
Yes, I ve heard of it.
All right. The Free Press was written by the opposite
number, that is, the opponents of Joe Knowland and
Earl Warren. They were two together on the Republican
side of this political thing here in Alameda County.
Kelly and his crowd were on the other. In that
Free Press
This isn t Mike Kellyt is it?
Jesten I think it was Mike Kelly.
The political boss?
Jester i I believe it was, Riley s Free Press. I believe it
was, the same one. He came out with this paper every
week. He dubbed Earl Warren "Pinky" Warren way
back in those days. He called him "Pinky" Warren
way back in those days.
MF Now what was the "pink" referring to?
19
Jester: Well, actually Warren s hair when he was a young man
sort of had a reddish hue, see* But later on, the
tag "Pinky" came back and it was brought back by
some who remember the Free Press, especially so while
Earl Warren was sitting in the Supreme Court. They
said", Look at old Pinky*. The color s coming out
again! So anyway, that s that.
There s another thing that you re asking about
here. [Refers to interview outline.] How were the
people recruited?" Now let me stop right here. When
I came into the office Charlie Blagbourne passed away
and that was in 33
MP: When you came into the office?
Jester Yes, aa a district attorney s inspector. It was
after Nina Warren was born, I know that. It had to
be after Prohibition was repealed. Wasn t there a
national election in 32? Wasn t that when President
Roosevelt done away with Prohibition?
MP Prohibition was finally repealed at the end of 1933
JTesten Well, anyhow, I don t recall the month or year right
now for sure. I Just can t find my records. If I
could find those records I could have had your answers
down to a T here.
I am almost sure that I was in the office at the
time that Mr. Warren had been thinking strongly of
filing for attorney general against U. S. Webb. But
he didn t do it.
MF Would he talk about that in the office?
Jesten Yes. He would say I think would be the comment
"What do you think about my doing so-and-so?" or
something of that nature, or make some statement of
that kind. This was usually done to someone, like
well, for instance every week he would have a meeting,
usually in the law library, with the attorneys and his
staff. By the same token he d have a weekly meeting
with the inspectors.
At these meetings he was inclined, from time to
time, to feel out the thinking of the people in
20
Jester i
MFi
Jesteri
MFi
Jester?
MF
regards to politics, In regards to the position that
he was going to have to take or should take or expected
that he may take. He would feel them out as to what
would or would not be a good thing to do for public
relations or relations between departments and so forth,
There was no question In that office that he was
thinking strongly about running for attorney general
before he actually did, several years before he did.
One thing, he was always strong for civil service
in everybody else s department but his own.
Really?
Yes. And It Is because of him, really, that the
district attorney s office In Alameda County has never
gone civil service.
Why did he feel that way?
Well, I don t know. I think it was because when
there wasn t civil service he exercised more control
over the individuals, I think, that way. I think
that way he would receive loyalty that he probably
felt he wouldn t get in any other way. I don t know.
He was never for civil service in his own bailiwick.
But he was always strong for it in the other guy s
department .
Yes, I remember reading that he was one of the
people who really pushed for civil service generally.
Jester: Yes, yes, yes. I noticed in your notes here that you
say, "Earl Warren drafts constitutional amendments
for ballot to effect state civil service. Attorney
general debated chief law enforcement officer salary,"
and so forth.
Now, you see there were two reasons for that.
While Webb was attorney general, he [WarrenJ could
go ahead, up the salary of the attorney general, and
fix it on a scale to go upwards. He could go for this
business of making everything civil service and that
sort of thing because he could have in the back of his
mind four years from now that will be my office,
now the salary is all set for myself. See what I
mean? Now you don t know what his thinking was, but
don t sell him short!
21
Jesten He was a hell of a politician! He was not looking
behind him. He was always looking ahead. If he
did something, all right he did It. He dldn f
t stand
around and cry about having done It and figuring
out how it would have been had he not done these
things. He said, "All right, I done that, now I m
going to go ahead to something else." He was driving
ahead always I
22
V THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S DEPARTMENT OF INSPECTORS
Organization and Administration
Jester i Let me see, maybe I m jumping around too much.
("Reading from interview outline.") You wanted [to
know], "How are Inspectors recruited?" They were
Just plain hired and they weren t recruited at all.
They were hired. Now as close as I can remember
George Hard and Oscar Jahnsen were federal
Prohibition agents, just like myself, so they came
in that way. But Tupper, Howard Tupper was a
carpenter. George Hennlngsen was a carpenter. I just
don t know. He d hire them himself. What he was
looking for in the individual, I don t know. I
imagine that Captain Helms exercised some influence
over him in regards to the hiring of people but he
did those things himself.
[Referring to interview outline.] "How organized
and trained?" Well, we weren t. You were hired. I,
myself, had experience and had already been trained.
MF Right. You didn t need special training.
Jesten Didn t need it. So I don t know what happened,
how these other guys come along on this thing but they
did and they were there, all of these other people
were when I got there. They were doing all right.
[Reading from interview outline.] "How were
cases assigned to them?" Well, now that s
something. That s something. They had for a while
what they called the homicide detail, in which one
inspector would be assigned to the homicide trial
deputy; was responsible to attend the coroner s
Inquest and to gather information on all homicides
within the county and be up on themj and assist the
smaller [police] departments in their Investigations,
and so forth. Warren was always insistent that we
would never take it [the small police department] over
ourselves. In other words, we wouldn t go in these as
an elite corps and take over. Rather than that, we
would offer our assistance. Although we were looked
at as an elite corps by some of these smaller depart
ments, we didn t go in there and take overs we offered
23
Jesten assistance and always let them get all the publicity
and get all the credit and all that sort of thing.
[Referring to interview outline.] "What hours
and standards?" [Laughter] Well, that is something
I must comment on. There were no hours . You worked
morning, noon, night, Sundays, holidays or whenever
they thought you were needed. When I say "they," that
would be Mr. Warren, or one of the deputies who had a
case going, or it would be Captain Helms or Oscar
Jahnsen.
As a general rule you would be in the office
for the purpose of handling the criminal matters that
are in court during the daytime, or doing investiga
tion on general cases during the daytime. At nights
5
you d] be out raiding gambling joints and bootleg
oints around over the county.
Today when you reflect back on it you wonder
how in the hell would a county office be able to
do that and get away with it when you compare that
with the conditions you have today, where overtime is
the demand) a forty hour week is something j and
there s quarrels in the department about who gets
the night shift and day shift and so on. Here we
were doing it all the time with no consideration as
to pay for overtime and so on.
Well, I ll tell you the answer to it was this,
we were hungry. We had to. This was during the
Depression period, the Depression era, and all Warren
had to say is, "I don t want you any more," and
you were out, and your family was on the street.
You d do anything to keep that Job. Now if that is
retaining loyalty it s the way you look at it.
But that was it. That was how that was gotten away
with, with those people. Now these inspectors would
get up and get involved in these raids at night and
of course you know you d get interested in [it],
and then it would be your case.
MFt What kind of working relationship did the inspectors
have with the deputy district attorneys?
Jester Here s what would happen. Certain deputy district
attorneys would have their own idiosyncrasies.
Jester i Inspectors would soon find out what those were and he
would bend himself to these idiosyncrasies. As for
Instance, Charlie Wehr. We called him the "Old
Bucket of Blood." He liked these homicide cases j
he was always trying homicide cases. He liked it.
He went into them.
One of Wehr s things he was single when I
first knew him. He got married after I left the
office, but wh*n I knew him jhe was single. One of
his idiosyncrasies was that he would always have some
work to do in the eveningtime during the meal hour.
Immediately after the meal hour then he d have to go
to dinner on the county, you see, and the county would
pick up the tab. The expense sheet was made out on
the blue sheet, and they used to call it "blue-
tagging." So the inspector would always be hooked
with Charlie Wehr if he was on a case with him, to
stay there during the dinner hour. He couldn t go
home to his own family. He d have to take Charlie
Wehr out to dinner in the evening, you know after
the dinner [hour], take him out to dinner, "blue-
tag it" on the expense account, pay for Charlie
Wehr s dinner. That was his Idiosyncrasy.
Coakley had a nasty habit of getting his second
wind along about eight o clock at night and he would
work at his paper work on his cases, whether it was
in the preparation for putting on the case, or
whether it was in rebuttal, or whether it was a
presentation to the Jury. He would do that between
eight o clock and midnight, or one o clock in the
morning and you d be there with him I
MF: I m beginning to feel that no one in that office
ever saw his family.
Jester i I ll tell you what, it was for a long period of time
a lot of them didn t.
Cecil Mosbacher it is not uncommon for her,
when the inspector they were working on some
fraud case to want the inspector at eight, or
nine, or ten o clock at night to go get a witness to
bring him in to talk to. She wanted to examine
him in preparation for the case at nighttime I So
there was her idiosyncrasies and that s what it was.
25
Jesten These people did these things not because they
were paid a tremendous salary for doinj It, but
we were In the Depression and by golly you loved
your Job and your family more than anything else,
and that was It I
Then you would have high respect for certain
ones of these lawyers, for their abilities to do
these things and so forth.
[Reading from outline] "How did we get along
with Alameda County cities?" Fine. "Sheriff s office?"
Pine. "Superior court Judges?" Fine. As a matter
of fact, Judges used to have a lot of respect for
district attorney s investigators, inspectors.
Gambling and Bootlegging Raids
MF: Perhaps we could Jump to some of the cases you
were Involved with.
Jesters Let s take the Chinese gamblers, distillers, bootleggers
and hijackers.
Every summer Warren started a practice of
hiring a young football player or somebody of that
stature from the University of California for the
summer months. Usually they were people out of
Boalt Hall for the summer months, and hire them as
a law clerk, you see. They d be assigned to the
inspectors. When you re raiding a Chinese lottery,
and we had them in Emeryville In those days, thick,
when you re raiding a Chinese lottery, the ticket
that you have to have for evidence is the marked
ticket. That is the one that s marked with the brush,
you know?
MFi Yes.
Jesters Not the ones that have the holes punched in them
because they don t count as evidence. So in these
gambling Joints these Chinamen would have Chinese
"runners," as they call them, who would keep the
marked tickets on their persons. If there were a
raid they would co-mingle with the customers and would
26
Jesteri
MFt
subsequently make their getaway. Or in some Instances
they had a getaway doorf an exit door and they would
get away. They d run. So this particular summer
he d hired Hank Sheldaok, who turned out to be quite
a football player. Sheldack s practicing law down In
San Mateo County, I think, now.
We had this Chinese lottery out there on Park
Street. There was an alley went alongside of it*
What would happen Is that the runner with these marked
tickets would come out the side door and run down
the alley. He d run like a deer and none of us
could catch him. We took Hank Sheldack out there
and we explained to him who the Chinaman was, what
he looked like and what to do about it. We went
charging up and beating on the door with our mallets
and out come the Chinese runner. He started down
the alley and Just hit Park Street and started to
make his turn, and Hank Sheldack tackled him, put a
flying tackle on him and lottery tickets and marked
tickets and Chinaman was all over the street I
[Laughter] So that s one of the highlights of
gambling.
But Chinese are gamblers, period. Let s face
It. There was a big place at the end of Park Street,
Chen King s. Chen King is over, I think, in the
Orient now.
Yes. His son is still here though.
Jester t He was self-deported, I guess. He run this big gambling
Jolng down there. I think it was called the "Olemo,"
at the end of Park Street. It had all kinds of
gambling in it. It was filled to capacity at all
times, there s no dead times In there. We raided
that a time or two but it was so boarded up
barred door that we had to come in the skylight.
There was a fishpond under the skylight. [Laughter]
That was a Job for Oscar Jahnsen one time. They d
keep the skylight, you know, painted over so you
couldn t see down through it and Oscar belted that
thing with a sledgehammer and Jumped down through
there. He went right in the fishpond, knee deep I
So anyhow, we d go and we d raid these places.
Then we had a system on making the return on the
27
Jester i
MF
search warrant or whatever, and take them Into court.
As a general rule, the attorneys would want to know
how many Chinamen would want to go In and plead
together because It s awful hard unless you absolutely
take a picture and the fingerprints of the Chinaman
to tell him again when you see him. So we used to
and we did at the tall end.
We d get Berkeley police In on the deal and
we d have them with their paddy wagons come down
there to Emeryville. We d run them up to Berkeley
Police Department where they d mug them and finger
print them and so forth and Ignore Emeryville
altogether.
[Referring to Interview outline.] On stlllsi
I ve talked to you about stills ; the same applies In
Alameda County as elsewhere on that. [Referring to
outline.] Bootleggersi I ve told you about that.
[Referring to outline.] Hijackersi well, we had a
few hijacks around here but generally It was one
bootleg outfit against another one and when we got
Into the picture It was only to seize those who
were handling the hooch and seize the hooch and so
forth.
Now who are these people In the picture?*
Jester: Well, these are all this Is what we call a "still
donkey," he Is a guy that works on a still, you know?
Now this Is a deputy sheriff, a special deputy sheriff
and this is a special deputy sheriff [pointing to two
men in photo] they re country folks there making a
little extra money as a sheriff or do it for free.
This is a deputy sheriff on pay and this is deputy:
sheriff on pay, but who they are and where that was
is beyond me. This was taken where? In San Jose?
I haven t the slightest ideal But it must be down
In that way there someplace.
[Showing another photograph.]** Oh, this
hole here, that one is Important. That was an
escape hole. Let me see if I can show you where
*See photograph S.
**See two photographs labeled T.
28
Jester i the hole come up. The hole come up a ways off from
that barn, so that the workers slip down through that
hole and they could get out, you see.
MF Where was this, do you remember?
Jester: That, I know, was up at that St. Helena area, up In
there.
They d set these stills up, they are Just most
anyplace that they could put them up. They knew
that they were only going to stay so long, so they d
put them up, for instance look here t how some of the
machinery is being worked by st.ring going down that
for weights, see?* In other words tnere was no
permanancy to it.
MFi Yes. This looks just like a tree trunk.
Jesten It was a tree growing right through the thing there,
see. For instance, here they knocked out a wall in
the closet to put a still in there j they come up
through the floor.
Investigative Aids
MF Did you make much use of undercover agents?
Jester i We used them frequently. They would make a buy of
narcotics or illegal hooch or whatever it was
gambling and so forth. But again, it was Depression
time and these people would do that for $5 a case.
I don t know. They d take an awful chance on their
lives doing it, but they did do It. They d
actually go in the place and make a buy and hold the
evidence while we were crashing in through there.
[Referring to interview outline.] The search
warrants, I told you about that. Used them when
necessary, but didn t use them when it wasn t
*See photograph U.
29
Jesten
MF
Jesten
MFt
Jesten
MFt
Jesten
necessary. We found out that you bound yourself
here s what Mr. Warren found out long since the
use of a search warrant you bind yourself to certain
things described In here. If you don t use It, you
see you ve got every horizon to go on these things.
You don t bind yourself.
[Referring to outline.] Telephone taps? Yes,
we used them and used them quite a bit.
[Referring to outline.] Concealed microphones?
Yes, had them concealed*
Could you Introduce that as evidence?
No. But you see what you d do, you d have the micro
phone and you d learn from this, then you d go out.
So many times people say, "How does the FBI, how does
that outfit, what power do they have, what crystal
ball do they have?" For Instance, right now, over
in San Francisco where a man was threatening the Bank
of American building and so forth, how did they know
to be at the certain street and watching for this
particular guy? How of all the people in San Francisco
did they know to watch him? Well you know damn
well and I know damn well that there is a phone tap
in that, don t you?
Right.
All right,
and convict
say it i but
Now they re not going to bring it out
themselves in it. They re not going to
that was the answer. See, they ve
listened to the phone >
they traced the call back.
They had P. T. and T. [Pacific Telephone and Telegraph]
help them. Now all a guy had to do. like he did in
the Brooke Hart case, is stand and watch that
telephone booth and whoever goes in there using that
phone, that s the guyt Now we know who we re
looking fort You see what I mean? The same thing
in the Brooke Hart case. They was getting this
phone call from this telephone booth
Who was getting the phone call?
The father, you see, to make the pay-off. The FB I
and the P. T. and T. was checking the call. The
P.T. and T. had this call coming in and they checked
it right back and it went to this phone booth.
30
Jest en They told the FBI. They went down there to the
phone booth i there was the uy. Like shooting fish
In the bathtub, wasn t It?
MF Yes.
Jesten So that s the way. They all do It. This Is a phony
business to say you don t you do, because It Is a
means of Investigation. It is an Investigative aid.
You don t have to use what was said, but you can use
the Information as an Investigative aid. It Is like
a crutch.
The Page Murder Case
Jester i Now In the Page murder case I ll tell you, you
asked me about specific cases of how Mr. Warren was
a rugged prosecutor. All right.
The Page murder case was a case where Page was
a captain, retired from the Army. Now during the
Depression era the military cut many of the officers
and enlisted men off the payroll before they had a
chance to finish out their time. They were career
men. All right now? Page was a captain who was
retired under that program. He lived in a house
that had been made over Into two apartments, one
upstairs and one down. Page lived upstairs, with
his son. He was a widower. So In this little two
bedroom, two room apartment upstairs in the house,
where you come in a common door, lived Page, his
teen-age son and Page s mother, the grandmother of
the boy. Now Page was working in a WPA project
you know what that was?
MF i Yes .
Jesten They had an art project up at the University of
California. Behind the door of his bedroom, he had
his old Army ^5 hanging there, you see, in a
holster. The son and he had been having some words
over a period of several days. It came to a head on
this particular Sunday afternoon. The old man
31
Jesters hollered out the window at the kid. The kid got
upset, came upstairs, come to the bedroom door and
said, "What did you say?" With that the old man the
door opened like this, see reached behind the door
took out the 45 shoved it in the kid s stomach, and
pulled the trigger in the heat of passion. The kid
grabbed him for the gun and probably sneered
at his father. Page pulled the trigger and he killed
his own son, right there.
The only witness to this is who? The boy s
grandmother who was the mother of Mr. Page. The
Berkeley ambulance came there, put the boy in the
ambulance and the grandmother goes along with him
together with a police officer. The police officer
is driving the ambulance going to the hospital,
Alta Bates, I believe it was. Before the kid
expired in the ambulance, he said to his grandmother,
"Dad shot me he s killed mel Why did he do it?", words
to that effect. This now, is a dying statement and
the only one who heard it was the grandmother. The
kid was dead upon arrival at the hospital DOA at
the hospital.
While the grandmother or the mother of the
accused he s now in Jail. We ve got him locked
up in Piedmont Jail, hid out away from his attorney
who I think was Leo Sullivan at the time, hunting
for him all over and we wouldn t tell him where he
was. Mr. Warren knew that. This is what we did in
those dayst We did it in those days.
Page s motheri the grandmother of the deceased,
was upset about this thing. She told me and the
investigating police officer I think his name
was Thompson, I m not too sure what the police
officer s name was she told me what the boy said
on the way to the hospital, and I recorded it.
Subsequently she told the same thing, in the form of
a statement taken in shorthand, to Charlie Wehr.
Now, we kept Page hid out up there for a while,
several days. Finally we had to tell Leo Sullivan,
who wasn t stupid, where he was. From that day on,
after Leo Sullivan talked to him and got to talk to
the grandmother, she never said another word.
Leo s dead now, but one time I asked Leo what
32
Jesten he said to her. He said, "Well, you know what I d
say to her." I. know what he d say to her. I know
what I d say to her If I were Leo Sullivan. "Look,
your testimony can only hang your own son, and that
is not about to bring back the life of your grandson.
So now do you want to go ahead and testify?"
Well apparently she decided against it because
I had to go out and see her every so often.
This was one of the inspector s jobs. When you
find an Important witness, Important to a case, and
there is a chance that the witness might flop or
change his story a little bit, you re got to wet-nurse
him, you ve got to go out and see him every day or
every other day and be with him. I ve done that many
a time and Frank Coakley will tell you that. I was
one of the guys that used to wet-nurse witnesses}
he ll tell you that.
She told me that she wasn t going to testify.
Now I went to Charlie Wehr first and I said, "Hey,
that gal is not going to testify. Your dying statement
is out the window!"
[Imitates Charlie Wehr.] "Don t tell me, don t
tell me. Don t mention that around here at all! You
keep seeing her. Don t you tell me what she says.
Don t you tell me she s not going to testify."
We were at one of these inspector s meetings
and after the meeting was over I tried to tell Mr.
Warren. He said, "You take it up with Wehr."
You know what happened?
MPi What happened?
Jester i In the trial of the case, Charlie Wehr had the old
lady subpoenaed and called her as a witness for the
State, for the purpose of testimony about the dying
statement. The defense counsel entered an objection;
the objection was overruled. She took the stand and
refused to testify. Charlie Wehr threw up his hands
like this [throws up his arms wide], "Well, I m taken
by surprise!" Now in a court of law, if you re taken
by surprise you can cross-examine your own witness,
and he got that statement in two ways. Number one,
33
Jesten by using cross-examination of her* Making her read
line for line her transcript statement*
MF The thing that had been taken down by the shorthand
reporter?
Jesten That s right, the transcript of the statement.
He would take each of his questions and her
answers thusi "Wasn t that your word there?"
She d say, "I don t remember, I don t remember, I
don t remember." But he got it in by impeaching her.
He Impeached his own witness I Impeached his own
witness*
Then he put a police officer on to testify that
he was present. I don t know whether it was me or it
was somebody he put on to testify that they were
present oh, I know who it was, it wasn t a
police officer at all. It was the girl who took the
shorthand statement, that this was her notes and that
was what was said, a true and correct transcription*
You see what was done there? They knew sh*
wasn t going to testify I But they wanted to be taken
by surprise.
MF: Yes, and they couldn t if you had already told them.
Jester: Right!
The Shipboard Murder Case
Jesters Now on the ship murder case, Vern Smith and I
arrested this defendant King, over there on the
waterfront as he come out of the union buildingo
This was a union killing, no question about that.
MFi Now I ll ask the question you said before people
always ask. How did you know to go arrest King?
Jester* Oh well see when that case happened, It happened
on a Sunday, over on board the ship Point Lobos over
in Alameda. They called me the Alameda Police, it
was Inspector Lloyd Wendland called me at my home
Jester i and said, "We ve got a murder over there aboard
ship..
"
Would I oome over, because I was working at
that time with Charlie Wehr on homicides. So I
went over to the ship. I went on the ship and they
had the Berkeley police there dusting for finger
prints. They were probably as good as anyone the
best at that time In our area here.
MF: Who was the police chief there?
Jester i Jack Greening and It was [August] Vollmer before Jack.
MFi Vollmer had quite a good reputation.
Jesteri Jack was the chief there at that time. But anyhow,
at this time we didn t know who was responsible for
the murder, only the people aboard the ship kept
saying that it was union because George Alberts was
the chief engineer and he had not agreed to certain
fringe benefits that these union people would demand.
They were Jockeying their time sheets and one thing
and another, like that. Apparently somebody from the
union had come aboard the ship down in Wilmington, in
Los Angeles before they came up here and was looking
for him and had threatened to get him. This was what
we were picking up. All hearsay. So anyhow, Wendland
and I, and I think It was an Inspector Johnson from
Alameda Police Department
MF Yes, there was someone by that name.
Jestert The three of us went over their reports from
Alameda Police Department will show this the three
of us went over to San Francisco and we met with
Inspector Frank Lucey of the San Francisco Police
Department. This was on a Sunday afternoon. He told
us that he thought we could get a lead on it by
going to a certain Joint on Ellis or Eddy, I forget
where it was. We went to the Joint and anyhow, we
were told by a party there that it was King, Ramsey,
Sakovltz, Wallace and that It was a union deal. But
this wasn t any proof. This was Just information.
So that was the original start of this thing
and it went from there. The investigation showed
that it was a union deal. We were given other
Information. Oh, yes, this guy told us one other
35
Jester: thing. He said that Alberts was knocked out with a
roller from an eighteen inch typewriter carriage,
that was it, and that the knife was thrown overboard.
The Alameda police got a diver and everything* But
this was just the start of the thing, this informatlono
Earl Warren came over to the police department
that evening.
MFt San Francisco?
Jester: Yes, that evening, I met him and talked to him in
the hall outside the Captain of Inspector s office,
there over in the San Francisco Police Department.
He subsequently went in and talked to the Chief
of Police. I don t know what he learned there but I
know that that was the start of it for my part. My
case files God knows where they are they ve got
the whole thing down in the court house and you can
get the whole story. That started the thing off.
When we got to the point that we were about to
make an arrest, I knew King by sight by this time.
We got a lead that he was at the union hall, or
supposed to be there. Vern Smith Smith was Chler
of Alameda Police and I went together for him. The
other fellows divided up and went for their people
at the various places. Some hit and some didn t.
But now on King, what happened with King, he walked
out of the union hall down on the sidewalk. I saw
him and I said to Vern, "That s the guy." Vern
was standing over behind the signboard, kittycorner
across the way. I said, "I ll walk up to him and
when I engage him then you follow up."
So I walked up to him and I started talking to
him. He said, "Who are you?" He was a big man,
husky guy, and I showed him my badge but I Just
flipped it, you know. Just so he could see it, that
there was a badge and didn t have a chance to read
it. In other words, he assumed I was San Francisco
[police]. Vern Smith come up and I said, "This is
Officer Smith" or Inspector Smith or something like
that. I didn t say he was Chief Smith, see* I
said, "Come on, let s go up to the Hall*"
36
Jester i He thought we were talking about the police department,
the Hall of Justice as they called It "the Hall"
over there In the city. "Let s go to the Hall." He
said, "Where are you taking me?" I said, "I m
taking you to the Hall. We want to question you.
We want to talk to you a little bit, Just talk to
you."
There was a police station right there; the
waterfront police station was right there, just
right around the corner from there I We had our car
stashed In there, In the police station. All that
we did was walk In one door and right out on through
to our car and get right In our car and drive out
and went right down and over, I think It was on
Battery Street, but anyway went right down and over
and around to the ferry. Remember, the ferries were
running at that time.
We come In and got In the ferry line and he
started beefing about It. "Where are you going?"
I said, "To the Hall." He said, "Not to the
Hall." Because he had hollered to these young guys,
his followers there, when we lay the arm on him.
He said, "Have them send "
and he called somebody
by name "Up
to the Hall. They re taking me to the
Hall."
Whether It was his attorney or who, I don t
recall now. I wish I had those files, but I don t
recall now. Anyhow, we took him across on the ferry
and up to the D.A. s office. Now this Is at night
time. It Is after dark when we arrived at the D.A. s
office. We took him up the back way Into the D.A s
office. We had a back way entrance into the thing,
and took him in and set him in an office. At this
time I took off of him such things as he had In his
pocket. He had telegrams and things of that nature
that were pertinent to this case, In these papers.
Mr. Warren was there. He came in and he talked
for a few minutes, and finally Charlie Wehr questioned
him at great length on these papers and things. So
we had him there and they didn t know over there.
They were hunting all over the city of San Francisco
for him, you see, while he was over here.
37
Jester: So that s some of the methods that we used at this
time.
MFi Were any of the other witnesses hid out?
Jesten Yes, they were all of them brought over there even
tually, but it wasn t long til they found out where
they were and they got them out on bail. We held
*em for a long while, a long while.
MFi Were you involved when they brought Frank Conner back
from Seattle?
Jesten No.
MF: And they brought him to the Whitecotton Hotel in
Berkeley?
Jesten No, but I knew about it.
MF Was that part of that same practice of keeping a
suspect out of the sight of his attorney?
Jesten Yes, yes. The same thing as in the Page case. It
was Just where you had em. Many times we d hold
these people in a hotel roomt Boy, they d feed them
good and keep them in a hotel room, many times! This
is not uncommon, particularly with witnesses. Holy
macklnawl An important witness? Somebody that
somebody could get to? Why, they d keep him in a
hotel room.
MFi
Jesten
Captain Charles Ryken at the district attorney s
office said that with some of the witnesses in the
shipboard murder case, inspectors just about lived
with them, and kept moving them all over the state.
That s right. To keep the opposition away. It was
a dangerous thing when you reflect back on it, because
the opposition could have killed them in any one
of these situations. Thai query, "Who was responsible?
1
You ve got this person in custody per se. The
inspector has this person in custody per se. If
something happens to him when you re moving him
around *-
many of us used to take them on long rides,
take them in a car and go for long rides. Yes.
38
The Brooke Hart Kidnap-Murder Case
MFi Do you know much about the Brooke Hart murder case?
Jester i The San Jose lynching what I ve done here I
know I was in Prohibition in those days I ve
brought you some papers here. [Hands interviewer
a stack of newspapers with pictures of San Jose
lynching.]
MF Oh, thank you.
Jester: I dug them out. Mice has got to them, but these are
the newspaper pictures of them breaking into the
Jail down there.
MPi Oh, look at that!
Jester: This is it. There s some of the crowd. There s
Helms and the others there. These papers are
really old! November 27, *33 So there you are!
Here s when the body was found down here by San
Mateo Bridge. Here s a picture here [showing clipping]
and that s Mike Driver, right up here with a mustache.*
That s old Mike Driver, and that was down here right
near the San Mateo Bridge. I think this is Chet
Flint standing right here. I know that I m in here
someplace because I was sticking my nose in that
thing down there at I didn t hare anything to do
with the investigation. It wasn t any of my case,
but I was there and I saw it.
The Gosden Murder Case
Jester i
Now, I have a whole bunch of newspaper clippings
*See San Francisco Chronicle, November 2?, 1933, filed
with Jester photographs in Bancroft Library.
39
Jester i here on the Gosden murder case and so forth.* Now you
know I told you that I had a ploture of the deceased
after she was the body exhumed.
MFi That was the second wife?
Jesten This was the one for which he was convicted here in
Alameda County. [Shows photograph] That s her. And
here s a guy, this [the photo] was hanging out in my
garage out there. I had to go dig it down off of
the wall, and it s dirty as hell.
They had him set up to be hung, you see. So
the governor called Coakley, or I guess he called
Mr. Warren, and said that this restaurant owner
operator was a new witness to give an alibi for him.
I had to go out there in the early morning hours to
see him. His alibi wasn t any good. Anyhow, I
went out to the resturant to see the witness before
the hanging, but it wasn t any good* It didn t stop
the hanging.
[Shows another clipping] This was down in
Sunnyvale. This was taken at his home, at his
mother and father s place. We were In there and this
was what give us a lead on how he could get the
strychnine Into her. It was through little abortive
capsules. He administered the strychnine to his
wife through these abortive capsules. He had a
tin box of these. We found the abortive capsules
in a box down in his mother s place in Sunnyvale.
An abortive capsule is very bitter to the taste,
when it dissolved in the woman s stomach and so he
was able to put the strychnine crystal in that. She
would take it the bitterness you didn t mind
as you thought it was the medicine, and that s the
way he got it to her* It was for the Insurance.
This is the actual picture here. It was under
neath the house. What was It 98th Avenue? I forget
what it was there.
*Clippings are on file in Bancroft Library.
San Francisco Call-Bulletin
Friday, March 1, 1935
39a
.
.*.
Inspector* Tupper and Jester of
Oakland, Chief Reimr of Sunny-
vale with u spected poison bottle
found in Sunnyvale .
place where :
Vivian, the second wife, died in con-
vulsions in 1928, afed-18. _
Jestert
MPi
Jester:
MFi
Jesten
MPi
Jesten
MP
Jesten
This bottle when he threw It hit this pipe here and
fell down. There was this big crack in this adobe
there, and the bottle fell in there. You couldn t
see it from out here but when you crawled under the
house you d find it. Inspector Jimmy Goodnight and
I had to do that.
The bottle gave the whole story, because there
it was, it had the number on it and the drugstore
on the label. Went right up around the corner
to the drugstore and checked back and found where he
forged the he d used a fictitious name to buy the
strychnine, he said to kill a kitty.
That s enough to turn me against him!
Then George Hard went up there and cut that damn
thing out of the book, and we had to go back and get
the book because it has to stay in the register. They
never did find that out. We got the register and
put that back in there [laughter]. They never did
find that out. That s the Gosden murder case,
Warren Olney
Warren Olney to my mind he was the prime mover
in the investigation of that thing. Charlie Wehr
done it, done the case. But the woman that put the
case over for us was a Mrs. Gonzales or some such a
name as that, lived next door. [Shows interviewer
newspaper photo of scene of the crime. ]
Oh, this is you.
Yes.
But she s the one. She was on the toilet [laughter],
I ll tell you the story on this thing. Let me show
you. You see this one of her?
Yes.
That was her bathroom window. The stool was right
next to it, see. She used to go in there with the
lights off at night and open the window, you know,,
and curtains open, and sit there with the lights
off.
Oakland Post-Enquirer
Friday, March 1, 1935
40a
i*w*<*fsmKmm<xsi!mf
:
z--:#>
-
:m?m#m
CELLAR ENTRANCE of Gosden hous* at 1275 Ninety-
sixth avenue, where Police Inspector James A. Goodnight
and Inspector L. G. Chester, of district attorney s office,
found poison bottle. Gosden said he bought poison to rid
place of rats.
-^-Post-Enquirer photo.
_*>
40b
Jester t Gosden was standing over here, see, on this side,
and she was here. She watched and she saw him when
the women was Inside with her arms up like this
screaming, you know, to come give her some help.
She saw all this and boy, I m telling you, did she
make that easel That was the winner* There s one
that you had to wet-nurse a little bit. She was
going back and forth*
MF: Were you her wet-nurse?
Jester i Yes. I worked hard with her and brought her Into
court and everything.
The Mausoleum Case
Jester:
MFt
Jester:
MFi
Jesten
MFi
Jester:
[Showing another picture.] Now this thing Is the
mausoleum case*
Mausoleum easel I ve never heard of that one.
Oh, you want to talk to Frank Coakley about that.
Were you Involved In that at all?
Yes. Frank Coakley and I, I ll say!
Wellt why don t you tell me your side of the story.
Well, the mausoleum case. Let me see If I can find
the newspaper clipping on that thing. [Rummaging
through them] I thought I had It somewhere.*
Warren was kind of hot for this. It made good
copy. That s what he was Interested In In that
mausoleum case.
You know where Mills College Is?
MF: Yes.
"Clippings on mausoleum case are on file In Bancroft
Library.
Oakland Post-Enquirer
Monday, November 4, 1935
41a
The Alameda County Grand Jury
will convene at 10" a: m. Wednes
day to begin Its investigation of th
affairs of the .East Bay Mausoleum,
it-- was announced today by District
Attorney Karl Warren and Fore
man James Fiske.
A. I. Noble, president and gen
eral manager of the mausoleum,
already is facing charges of grand
theft, growing out of the alleged
removal of a $300 stickpin from the
*>ody of John C. Foster, placed in
a crypt ten years ago and of ille
gally moving Foster s body.
He is at liberty on $3000 bail on
the warrant, sworn to by Mrs.
.TSdith M. Kysh, sister qf Foster. She
is expected to be one of the wit
nesses before the Grand Jury.
!
. Noble also will be called, it was
announced, as will :
H. L. McAlJister,
San Francisco attorney and vice-
president of the mausoleum com
pany; Miss Mabel E. Kuss, an em
ployee, and Mrs. Alice DeForrest,
secretary and bookeeper.
Assistant District Attorney J..
Frank Coakley, in charge of the
case, said a large amount of evi
dence procured from seized books
and records of the company, also
>ould be presented to the Grand
fury.
Jester i There s a mausoleum up on the hill there* Well,
there was fraud on that thing. A gal by the name
of Kysh, from Houston, Texas conferred with Mr.
Warren, and complained about the mausoleum. She
alleged that the body of her brother had been put In
there and that It was no longer there, that there
was the theft of this pin off of the body and so
forth, see.
Anyhow, she came Into the office. She was a
nice-looking gal. She said that she was a movie
extra, or something, a movie something or other, down
In Hollywood. She was with her mother, or said It
was her mother, and said that they d put her brother s
body In this mausoleum. They d paid so much to have
an inscription put on the marble front of It and so
forth. They were down In Texas, and then when she
got Into the movies down there In Hollywood, she
decided to come up here and see about her brother s
resting place In the mausoleum and she found that It
was vacant.
Let me see, what was It she said, "He d been
removed from Its crypt" and that the crypt was
vacant and oh yes, then they said the body was
downstairs someplace In this mausoleum and apparently
they d resold the crypt.
This was Interesting and of course Mr. Warren
sees a good-looking gal, and It didn t take long to
get her together with him. He d get Interested In
the case and got his picture taken with her.
Then, there was an attorney by the name of
Noble that was Involved In this thing and I forget
what the other gal s name was, but anyhow, I got
Involved In the Investigation of the thing and went
out there.
Jesus, we found out that a lot of things they
promised wasn t being done. In other words, they
were supposed to be given perpetual care In this
thing, running a special fluid or gas through the
crypt. The back end of those crypts was Just like
they were years ago, see. That wasn t being done.
Then we found that bodies were moved all over the
cotton-plckln* place and they were reselling the things,
Jesten
MPi
Jesten
MF
One girl s body was taken out and put in the cemetery
plot and the crypt resold.
Slipped in there on one night and they had an
urn that they were putting in a niche you know, one
of those niches? When I got there, slipped up on
them and Jesus, they had a whole bunch of Jewelry I
There were Masonic pins, K.C. pins, Eastern Star, and
every other kind of Jewelry you can think of, rings
and everything, see. Jeez I
I grabbed hold of that and held them and we had
got some other investigators up there. We were
making a big issue that these things came off of some
bodies. How in hell would we ever prove what body
it come off of! You d have to open every crypt.
You can t go back and find people who were concerned
about these things! Couldn t tell you!
I know that one of the accused, this woman, said
that these things were her father s. I said, "Well,
he was quite a Joiner!" [Laughter] to belong to
all those things.
Frank Coakley got the case, and Cecil Mosbacher
was carrying the books for him. They prosecuted this
case and they convicted them all! The whole schmeer,
the lawyer and the whole schmeer! Convicted them all.
It was known as the mausoleum case.
I see they took It to the grand Jury.
Yes, it was an indictment before the grand Jury*
That was one of the things that Earl Warren did on
these big cases, because it would be unwieldy and I
think you d agree to that, it would be unwieldy
indeed to take a big case like that on a preliminary
hearing. It Just wouldn t work.
Now remember I said I was stabbed in the place
there?
Yes.
Jesten [Laughter] That was in the early part of 33* I m
sure that I went to the D.A. s office in the latter
part of 33 or the early part of 34 because I was
still in the Prohldes here. [Shows photographf]
*Photograph not In Bancroft Library*
Jester i This was over in Alameda a guy by the name of
Anton Silva Brown stabbed me with this ice pick.
It didn t do any harm. The belt buckle in the belt
here saved it. He tried to hit me in the head with
the Iceman s axe poor old soul, he s an old guy.
[Laughter] He died before they could bring him to
trial. He was an old guy, he plain up and died
before they could bring him to trial.
Well, let s see. [Referring to interview outline.]
The Becker case I suppose you re going to get from
Frank Coakley. The General Strike in 34, all I
can tell you is it was in Alameda, in Oakland as bad,
possibly, as it was over in San Francisco. Tied
up everything, but they didn t get to the point
where they were fighting it out over sand bags, like
they did over in San Francisco.
The Kidnap Squad and the Racket Squad
Jester i
[Referring to interview outline.] Communist activity
and criminal syndicalism, well, that was Chet
Flint s department, communist activity and criminal
syndicalism. However, Warren had a happy faculty for
doing this you know when these kidnappings were
going on? You had the Hamm kid was kidnapped and
then the Brooke Hart thing and this, that and the
other?
MF Yes.
Jester i Well, Warren would come up with these things. I
don t know who helped him think of them, but he formed
a kidnap squad in Alameda County. The kidnap squad
was made up and I was on that, I forget who else
Oscar Jahnsen, of course, would be on it, and it
would be somebody from the sheriff s office and
somebody from each police department, see, and that
would make everybody happy. Then he d have big
splurge in the paper, see, "Kidnap Squad Made Up of
so forth and so on. Now that looked good. The
practical part of it was that we d have meetings
from time to time, but it wasn t slowing down any
kidnappings.
Jesten So the next thing they formed was a racket squad.
Now we had the suede- shoe- ers in the old days, you
know, running around here, selling everybody every
thing. There was all kinds of rackets going on. The
Depression bred a lot of this stuff. We had guys
selling phoney stocks and everything. Well, he
[Warren] formed a racket squad. That was great
stuff, too. But he was good for thati he d do these
things; he d form these things. He d get the pub
lic! tyj he d milk it out, get what there was and
everybody was happy, even the people who were
serving on these things were happy, the whole thing
was happy.
MFi
Jesten
MPi
Jesten
MF:
Mesten
But did it stop any of the rackets?
No, but what happened was, because of the prosecution
over in Alameda County, it brought it down to a
bare minimum, I ll tell you that, in Alameda County.
Oh, it did.
Oh, I ll say it did! Yes, m am, it did. We d have
them. They d crop up, but as a general rule the real
pro would never hit Alameda County unless by accident.
I know in one case there, well, they got an old guy
by the name of Rohn or Rahn a miner from
Alaska. [Laughter] They showed him this was a
funny thing!
You know the Scottish Rite Temple down by Lake
Merritt?
Yes.
They showed him that and told him it was the New
York Stock Exchange Branch. [Laughter] Said it was
a part of the New York Stock Exchange. Well, anyhow
they got him for a few thousand dollars I don t
know whether it was eleven thousand, but something
like that. They had to come over here because Rohn
was living in a hotel over here on this side of the
Bay.
He started out living in the Klondike,
obviously, he s from Alaska the Klondike on
Third Street or whatever it was in San Francisco but
Jest en then they came over here with their scheme of
taking him and brought him over here to this side.
We were the ones who prosecuted because the money
was actually paid over here, I think at the Harrison
Hotel or one of those hotels. It was paid over
here.
Now, as to actually reducing the amount of crime
in any one of these things, no, it didn t, but it
brought it down. It reduced it but it didn t stop it,
I ll tell you that. It brought it down to a bare
minimum.
Oh, yes, one thing it did do everybody that
served on these so-called "squads" or whatever it
was known as, would be familiar with the workings
of the thing from just mere discussion with each
other and it helped in the investigations.
One thing that he [Warren "}
was rabid on
and I don t know, to me I think he carried it too
far was on this Japanese espionage. God all
mighty I He was dead sure before the war that the
"Yellow Peril" was here and going to take over. I
mean, that s his feelings on the thing. It was his
commotion on the subject matter, I think, that caused
most of the Japanese in California, or at least up
here in the northern part, to be taken into custody for
no other reason than because they were Japanese. I
know that he thought like that about it.
The Mills Company Gambling Raid
MFi Were you involved in the Mills Company slot
machine raids?
Jesten Yes, I ve got pictures of that in here [Ruffling
through papers]. Yes.
All that was, was one of those things at night,
you know, you re working at nighttime, that Oscar
Jahnsen roustin around ran into the warehouse down
there in west Oakland and looked in through a window
there, climbed up and looked through a window, and he
Jesten saw the slot machines in there. Nothing would do but
by God we d have to go in there and we did.
MFi [Looking at clippings.] Charles Kltsmlller, I
remember his name.
Jester: All that was, all in the world it was I ve got
pictures in here of Captain Helms showing that the
machines were set so you couldn t win. There he is
right there, old George Helms, so they couldn t win,
you know.
But all this amounts to is that one night, one
of these nights, see, Oscar Jahnsen is prowling
around. He goes up and he looks up through the
window and he sees these slot machines in this old
warehouse down in west Oakland. I think he s got a
damn good idea of what s in there. Somebody may
have told him or something, because he went right to
the place.
All right. We go in there, get in there and
here s the slot machine and a whole set-up. The
records are in the safe, a great big safe. So calls
for our men and then the guys come down there and
their lawyer and so forth come down there to the
warehouse and Oscar calls for Frank Coakley.
Coakley comes down. Then there s a hassle between
Coakley and their lawyers as to whether we get in
the safe or not.
In the meantime, Oscar gets an old battering
ram [laughter] we still got it down there in the
basement of the Courthouse I A big old battering raml
We drove through any kind of building with that
damn thing, you know. You d go to raid places and
he had that damn thing [laughs] and was charging at
this safe door with this battering ram, and Frank
said, "All you re doing is making it tighter!"
Well, anyhow they finally got the goddamn thing
open and got in there and got the books and the records
and all that was was that*
There were some of the councllmen involved in
it. The newspaper pictures and everything are in
here. This is Vern Smith here. They were going
47a
Oakland Tribune
Saturday, May 11, 1935
FIGURES IN SLOT MACHINE RACKET PROB&
60
:-
;;
;iSL,sii&& -* ..... <:.: L
Charles Kitzmiller,
(upper left), as he confessed to)
Chief Assistant Distrirtf
Attorney Ralph Hoyt ,
(right) an asserted plot to bribe 1
three Alameda police commis
sioners, Lee Cavanauyh (up
per center). David C. Moses
(upper right) and Harry Shed
(inset at left). Lower jighl is
Police Chief Vem mith , of
Alameda, whose removal is said
to have been asked by Krtzmil-
ler in the "deal." lwer picture
shows police raiding tlus Mills
Sale Company, 1 640 Ejf
-
Street, slot machine concern.
Tribune tthole
Oakland Tribune
Saturday, May 11, 1935 47b
HERE S WHY YOU
Jester: to try to get him out and they were going to put In
somebody else as Chief of Police. It was quite a
deal! Here again, what happened was that somebody
talked.
I remember you went through the tube and it used
to be the airport was located Just the other side of
the tube there in Alameda. I remember sitting out
there in the car with one of these council members
for a while. We d try that until the zero hour
came when we could go do something else. My memory
isn t too good on these things any more. I ve got
the newspaper clippings here and I recall seeing them
but my case reports are not here.
The Inspector s Job
Jester i
Generally speaking on something like that there was
one prime mover in the thing, on this thing in
Alameda. Maybe it was Ralph Hoyti possibly it was
he, assisted by maybe Coakley and maybe Dick
Chamberlain, Mosbacher maybe a team like that.
The inspectors would be doing Just those things,
going here and there and doing what you were told.
In other words, go pick this guy up, go pick that guy
up, go do this, or go raid that place and seize the
machines and so forth. We wouldn t be able to put
the whole picture together from our little part that
we were playing here and there until later on. Then
the whole picture come together and everybody had
a part in it.
It s like the Gosden murder case. For a long
period of time everybody who d retire from the D.A. s
office, they d say, well, they d played a part in the
Gosden murder case. Well maybe he did, maybe he
carried a book from here to there or something like
that. But he wasn t the main part of the whole
picture.
Same way with the ship murder case. The ship
murder case was put together by Wehr and aided by
some other capable lawyers, but the Inspectors did
Jester i what they were told, going here there and every
place else. I know that I ran down to Los Angeles
twice on that ship murder case, one time to go to
Wilmington and so forth.
MFi What were you looking for?
Jest en Well, one of the guys which one was it that we
picked up in Brownsville, Texas?
MF: Wallace, George Wallace.
Jesteri Wallace, yes. Well he had made a pier head jump.
Do you know what that is?
MF: No.
Jester: All right. When a ship gets ready to sail, if there s
somebody missing from the crew, like in the engine
room in other words, if they need a seaman or
an engine man or a wiper or an oiler or a cook or
something, the skipper can hire right off of the
pier. If a person wants to get out of the country,
he can hang around the pier where the ship is making
ready to sail and many times pick up a job right then.
That s called "a
pier head Jump." That s what
Wallace did, and I went down to Wilmington to try
to get a hold of him, but he had already gone.
I think that s the way that s it. I
found out where his ship was going. I think that we
made contact with the ship at sea, found out that he
was on board and they were going into Corpus Christl,
Texas, wasn t it, or Brownsville?
MF: Brownsville.
Jester: Brownsville. That was the answer. We knew Just
about where he was going. I think now bear in
mind that for many years now my memory isn t as
good as it
MF: You re remembering a great deal I
Jester: Well, OK. Now, where were we?
50
Matt Warren Murder Case
MF:
Jester:
MF:
Jester:
MF:
Jester:
MF:
Jester:
Were you involved at all with the Matt Warren
murder case?
No, no, no. There again the Matt Warren murder case,
I was outo I was chief of police in Albany then, but
I was associated with the office.
Now that thing happened, if I recall, it happened
in May of 38.
Right. It was Just when Earl Warren was running for
attorney general.
I had only been chief of police a few weeks. I
went in office in April, the first week in April.
I had only been in office a few weeks.
Now this chief of police in Bakersfield, what
was his name?
Powers, Bob
Powers, Bob Powers. He was prematurely bald. He
was a good friend of Mrs. Jester s and mine. See,
we knew him.
Yes, we ve interviewed him for our office. He s
a delightful man.
He was a very nice guy. Now I don t know what he
told you folks, but he came up here for the World s
Fair, to Treasure Island. He and I and Mrs. Jester
were over there at the Fair together, Just the
three of us. Now I don t know what he told you but
I opened up with him like this, I said, "What do you
think about this business of Earl sending Oscar and
those people down to help you out on your investiga
tion?"
He kind of looked at me, and he said, "Well,"
really, he didn t mind, he said that there was so
many angles to the thing, so many people that were
suspects that they could use a multitude of help.
51
Jester*
MF:
Jester:
MPi
Jesten
MF:
Jesten
Now I gathered, maybe from something he said, that
old man Warren had a bushel of enemies, a lot of
enemies. I don t know whether it was from our
conversation, Power* s conversation or conversations
I had with other people later on, but I think it
was pretty well established in my mind and where I
got it, I don t know is that the old man was
a kind of a Shylock. He was rumored to be foreclosing
during the Depression time, and that he was charging
the highest rent the law would allow for renting
his places, and that he had a lot of people who
were his enemies. But that s about the size of it.
This is hearsay, rumor and gossip you must remember,
not my own knowledge.
Warren went into the attorney general s office
right shortly after that, didn t he?
That s right.
November.
He was elected that following
Yes, and he didn t go into the attorney general s
office until the next year.
That s right, in January, 39*
He was still down here in the district attorney s
office because it seems to me that he flew Oscar
Jahnsen and I want to say George Hard, but I
think it was Hennlngsen. Oscar Jahnsen and at
least one other person flew down to Bakersfield and
then somebody drove a car down there.
Yes. Nathan Harry Miller drove down there.
Yes, Nathan Harry Miller, now that s the guy we used
to always take with us to fill out the return on
the search warrants when we raided some gambling
joint. You know, Harry was our bookkeeper. He
went down, he drove down.
Well, I don t know. There s been a lot of
mystery to that. Powers left me with when I
talked to him and my wife, we felt for sure that
there were just too damn many suspects, that they were
never going to find anybody on that one, because you
could just take any one of a number of people and
they could be equally as guilty. They never did find
Jesten
MPi
anybody either.
No, they didn t.
Gambling Ship Raid
MF Were there any other cases you were involved in
that we haven t talked about?
Jesten Well just one. We didn t talk about the dog tracks,
did we?
MFi No, we didn t. Were you involved with them?
Jester* Well, only that they did exist, and I never had
anything to do with any of these raids but I have
seen Oscar Jahnsen in action. After Warren became
attorney general he went after those gambling ships
down there off of Santa Monica, you know.
MF i Yes .
Jester: Well there was a great question as to whether he was
Justified in what he did, I know that as a Supreme
Court Justice he would vote against the very action
that he himself took on those gambling ships. But
how can you very well unring a bell? Oscar raids
the ship and throws the paraphernalia over the side
and it goes down thirty fathoms [laughter] and
it s not going to be very good after that. You
don t try to retrieve It out of the bottom of the
ocean. So they, the owners, could go ahead and
win their case but the damage is done. You re not
going to unring the bell, you see. The thing is
done.
So he would do those things. Warren would do
those things from time to time. He ll Justify
his own position in many Instances. I say to you
that all attorneys will Justify their own positions.
Good heavens! An attorney will go out and get his
nose wet at some cocktail party and on his way home
a policeman will stop him. The following day the
attorney will justify his position. But by the
53
Jesten same token he would vigorously prosecute the likes
of thee and me, if it were us. You see? So they
Justify these positions. So these are the things
I find.
I don t know of any other cases that you haven t
asked me about. God, I don t know we ve had so
many of them.
MF:
MF:
Were you in the office when the ship Vancouver was
bombed?
Jester: I knew about it, but what year was that?
I think that was in 38.
Jester: No, I was Chief of Police then.
VI POLICE CHIEF OF ALBANY, CALIFORNIA
MFi How did you decide to leave the D.A. s office?
Jester Well, the city of Albany it still does, it hasn t
been changed the chief of police is elected out
there. Did you know that?
MFi No, I didn t.
Jester i Well John Glavinovich was city marshall in Albany,
way back in the old days. His daughter, Rose
Glavinovich was the Oakland Tribune reporter for
Berkeley, had an office in Berkeley. She was also
the right-hand bower for the Berkeley Gazette.
She wielded quite a husky stick out in that way,
anyway you want to look at it* She was a good woman i
she was never married.
When the city of Albany was incorporated, John
became the first chief of police. He was the only
chief of police up to this time. Now he s going to
retire and the election was in the first part of 38.
Rose Glavinovich got hold of me. The mayor
and the city councilmen had a meeting
Rose was the prime mover. They had her father and the
whole thing there. They had me there, and he put
it to me to run for chief of police. I didn t want
it. They would back me all the way, no problem. I
didn t want it.
I then found out definitely that Mr. Warren was
going to go for attorney general. So I thought, well,
if he s going to go for attorney general, well,
everybody is looking out for themselves, by jingo,
this might be the time. It won t be disloyalty to
55
Jesten any of them or anyone else. It might be the time to
go ahead. They kept after me and finally Rose went
so far, I believe at least she told me she did
talked to Mr. Warren about It. Now whether she did
or not I don t know, but I finally said all right.
They had a meeting and I agreed to do It.
Well Jesus, to keep me In line so I wouldn t
change my mind, they put this In the paper right
awayi Mr. Warren expressed surprise when I went in
to tell him. Then after he had been told by me, to
read [about It] in the paper, five minutes later
But we parted awfully good friends and he sent me
there s another thing in my memoirs, if I can find
it around here he sent me a telegram, congratula
tions when I d won the election.
Now. When I was running for election, I couldn t
use him as a reference or anything else. He wouldn t
allow that. All I could do was just say that I
oh, I had to resign. Oh, yes. Then I could go out
and file. I couldn t stay in the D.A. s office.
All I could say was that I was formerly with the
district attorney s office, formerly with the Depart
ment of Justice. But that was alii I was on my
own. However, with that kind of backing and the Chief
of Police himself, the Tribune, the Berkeley Gazette -
August Vollmer was for me, Jack Greening was for me,
so how could you lose? I had some oppostition, but
I won and then I was reelected. Then the war come
along and I was back in the Navy and that s about
that.
VII POLICE CHIEF OF FARGO, NORTH DAKOTA
MF: When you left the Navy, did you Just retire from
there or did you go back to Albany?
Jester i No, no. I ll tell you what. When the war was over
I was overseas with the Fourth Fleet. After Germany
surrendered I was in the Atlantic. The Fourth
Fleet was fin the Atlantic. After Germany surrendered
I got back to the States. I was three years over
seas when I got back to the States.
Then I got shore duty. I got a letter one day
from a mayor of I had shore duty in Chicago, by
the way I got a letter from the majfor of Fargo,
North Dakota. He said that he asked J. Edgar Hoover
for a recommendation, they wanted a new chief of
police and so forth, and they said that they had
gotten my name through him. How, I don t know,
because he is not one to recommend anybody.
I Imagine what happened, they wrote to him and
his office probably sent them a form reply saying
"Well, there s Jester, he s at the Chicago Ninth
Naval District, the Navy address, he ll be out of
the Navy soon and he was formerly chief of police of
Albany, and they probably gave him two or three other
names. Maybe they were shopping around for other
people, I don t know. But anyhow they wanted me
to come up there and look at the thing, and I did,
and it appealed to me. It looked like something
for a lot of changes and found it was a pretty good
town.
Their police department was way back in the
57
Jester: horse and buggy days! So I couldn t do anything but
goodo In other words , whatever I did would be an
improvement. So I took it, I went up there and by
golly, don t you know, we got involved in the Korean
thing and I got called back for Korea I Called back
to the Navy for Korea. I was up there five years, I
think it was as chief of police, over four, about
five. Then after I finished another three years of
the Korean thing, I went back up there and it would
snowl [Gives a little whistle.] In February. And
I d come up from the tropics!
58
VIII RETURNING TO ALAMEDA COUNTY
Jest en I sat down and I penned a letter to Mr. J. Frank
Coakley, who was now the district attorney out here
and I asked him if there was any police spots open
out here. Besides that, a friend of mine spoke to
him personally, and he sent me a letter back, air
mail letter to tell me, you know, "Come on out."
They d have a spot for me. So I did. I didn t
mess around. I came on out and he had a spot for
me.
MFt In the D.A. s office?
Jester i Yes, as an investigator again, starting back out where
I d left, as an inspector again. I went right
away working on buncos, frauds, and corporate
securities the thing that he knew best. Mr.
Coakley knows those better than anybody, those
things* I went to work with him on that and then when
they had to form this Family Support Division
the Supervisors said they had to have a Family
Support Division to go after the welfare fraud and
all that. Well wouldn t you know it, he chose me as
the one to set that up. Then I was promoted to
lieutenant. Then I set that thing up and I was
there from 60 to *66 when I retired, and that s
that.
MFi You ve had a very full career.
Jest en Yes, I got a retirement from the Navy, too, because
with all this fooling around my enlisted time four
years and World War II was over four years, Korea
was over three years. So you add them all together,
and I stayed in the Navy Reserve component, went to
59
Jester i these weekly meetings, and every year I made a
cruise at sea. Do you know, I got in enough time to
retire with twenty-seven years, eight months and four
days! Yes sir, and I have a Navy pension. The
main thing with the Navy thank God I ve got it
Is the use of Naval Hospital facilities.
MPt That is really good.
Jesten and the commisary, exchanges and so forth. Those
fringe benefits are more Important than possibly
the cash outlay.
60
IX EARL WARREN AND J. FRANK C OAKLEY COMPARED
MPi One thing I wanted to ask you about, since you
mentioned that you worked in the office when Coakley
was D.A., was how you would compare Earl Warren and
Coakley, ao district attorneys?
Jester t How would I compare them?
MFi Yes.
Jesten Well, in a lot of respects, they re the same. I
think that Coakley took a leaf out of Warren s
book in a lot of things j that is, in the preparation
of a case. Specifically, these things i he wouldn t
have his outside offices now what I mean by an
outside office is the prosecuting attorney s office
in, like, Berkeley, Oakland, Hayward, Alameda --
that point is where he controls the case that comes
into the courthouse, his office.
In other words, if that case isn t a good, solid
case, with the majority percent of winning, it never
gets that far. That s washed out down there in the
police court. Now, if it s a case where you have a
choice of a multiple of charges, you see, where it is
strong on a lesser charge, that s acceptable because
you don t have to go on the you see what I mean,
you follow me?
MFi Yes.
Jesten You see now, this is how you control those things*
This is how you determine the ent.ries in your win
and loss column, the box score. Now I don t care who
61
Jesten the prosecuting attorney is. I don t care who he is,
what state, county or country he s in. That box
score is his life s blood, now you can just bet on
that. He is in there as a prosecuting attorney and
that s his box score* When he comes up for election
next time, it is going to be used*
Now Warren used it to his benefit all the way
along. Then when he stops being district attorney,
he condemns it. And yet, he himself used it. He
can t come out and tell you a better way to approach
this thing for a district attorney, beside having a
good box score, because the constituents, the people
is going to vote for the D.A. It s not going to
vote for some weak sister who doesn t do anything I
Why, he d be open to criticism for the four years
prior to the election.
Now Coakley is like that. Coakley is a bulldog,
tenacious. If he once gets his teeth into something,
you, the devil himself isn t going to change him.
He ll just shake that thing and shake it, just
like a bulldog. Sometimes he ll be given wrong
information or get a wrong conception of some matter,
but once he s made his mind up, right or wrong, he s
going to charge ahead with it, and he will.
He is loyal, to a fault. There s nothing bad
in that except that he lets his loyalty sometimes run
away with his feeling. His heart is about as big
around as a washtub. For Instance, on his promo
tions. He ll promote out of loyalty sometimes more
than he will on who is more deserving, one or the
other is more deserving.
He will listen through loyalty. He will listen
to former advisers and/or friends or people who ve
been politically on his team for a period of time.
He ll listen to them and act through loyalty to them
sometimes to his own detriment. He ll stick to his
guns i he s like that.
However, I never could understand why he was
carrying through on Warren s program of no civil
service in his office. He had ample opportunity to
have civil service in the office, particularly so
when he was going out of office, finally here, and
Lowell Jensen was to be appointed in his stead. All
62
Jester t right, now, at that stage of the game all he had to
do was raise the signal flag to the Board of Super
visors and It would have beoome civil service because
It Is the only holdout office in the whole county!
He says that he has a reason for that In that
he feels that the deputies would not be as
proficient if they re civil service, when they can
sit back in security. That may be a good reason i but
does that same reason apply and was it applicable to
the inspectors, who is the blue-collared worker of the
D.A. s office, let s face itt The lawyers have a
profession that they can practice In or out of the
D.A. s office, what s the difference?
Maybe civil service isn t so important to them
but I say that the blue-collar worker, that is, the
Investigator and the inspector who is on a par with
the deputy sheriff and so forth, he is entitled to
civil service. I think it would be better for the
county because In that fashion they could tie their
salary program for all of the policing agencies within
the county Into one column and you wouldn t have dis
harmony and discontent in one group with the other.
Now I d say that Coakley probably takes after
Warren. I think that their activities, I think their
thinking, I think their approach to these matters were
very much the same, and yet in personalities they
were the direct opposites. Isn t that funny?
MF How so?
Jester i Well for Instance, Warren was a social man, a mixer.
But he d never get In and drink with the boys. He
stood aloof. Then, Just the opposite, Frank Coakley
will mix with the boys at the drop of a hat, at
any time and loosen up, relax. Sometimes have drink
one too many, you know. But by the same token, I
think when the party Is over, people feel possibly a
little bit more close to Frank than they did to
Warren, who held himself aloof.
Now Warren will whistle up anybody. I ve had a
feeling that he would take advantage of his position.
Now this evidenced itself after he had left the
district attorney s office, but became more
prevalent after he became the Chief Justice. He
63
Jesten would telephone or otherwise arrange for an Inspector
and a vehicle to meet him and/or his wife and/or one
member or all of his family at any given time, at
any given place such as an airport or a depot or
some place like that, and to lug their valises and
their luggage all over, chauffeur them all over the
place, take them to Sacramento or to where ever
the heck It Is over to San Francisco take his
wife out to Berkeley and wait for her while she s In
the dentist s and this and that.
This strikes me as a little bit ridiculous when
you look at It. He s drawing a pension from the
State of California, which Is sizeable, besides that
his salary as Chief Justice which is sizeable.
Yet he has to chisel a ride and have an Inspector on
the county payroll drive him in a county car, and/or
his wife, all over the place, pay the bridge tolls, if
any to be paid, and wait for him and around and this
and that. Now that s expecting a little bit too much.
Now Coakley has never whistled up that much.
However, he s seen It happen because he s the one
that s had to furnish this type of service to Mr.
Warren and have somebody go pick up one of the Warren
kids and take him down to San Francisco Airport to
see him off or her off on an airplane, etcetera.
Well now, Mr. Warren would be the first one to condemn
that in somebody else. Yet he can Justify it on his
part.
MFt That s what you were talking about before, that
attorneys can Justify
Jester t
Attorneys can always Justify. Mr. Warren can Justify
it i he can In that big broad smile of his and that
nice shock of hair, put his hand out and grab you
by the hand, his left hand up on your elbow and
holding your hand In his right and looking you in
the eye and smile down at you, and by golly, listen,
you ll let him do and say what he wants to do and
say. As a matter of fact, you ll aid and abet him
in what he s about to do, what he has done.
Now that s something that Coakley never could
whistle up. He s not that type. Yet he had a
brother who was an orchestra leader and who was
more or less that type.
MPt I didn t know about that.
Jesteri His brother Is a Judge In Marlposa and about to retire,
Tom Coakley. He was an orchestra leader*
MFi I didn t know that.
Jesteri Yes, he started a band up in the University of
California about the same well no, he was ahead, I
guess, or what s this guy that plays for the Haiders?
Courtney, Del Courtney.
Tom Coakley was Prank Coakley *s brother. Both
of them graduated from law school, had law degrees.
Bat instead of Tom going into the practice of law
right away this was during the Depression time and
all those hard times he went on with this little
group that he d formed in school I suppose that
they re the same ones that he had with him in school
but he went on with an orchestra. He played all
around here. He even played with the big bands around
here, throughout the United States I Yes, Tom Coakley.
But there s a difference there you see. Here s
two brothers. Now, Coakley, don t sell him short as
being a good prosecutor. Don t sell him short for
taking advice. Now Coakley will listen. Sometimes
it holds true that the last guy to talk to him will
win his confidence and/or favor, whatever it is.
But in preparation of a case, Coakley will talk to
the Inspectors and the lawyers and this and that; and
he ll listen.
On that Abbott murder case, he listened to
suggestions as they come along. I was on the Abbott
thing there, done a little on it, as did many others.
Coakley would listen to suggestions and he d put
them into effect.
Earl Warren always was the guy who had the
suggestion. Somebody else followed his suggestions,
as I. found it. But both of them were smart people.
They re smarter than I am.
MFi Well, they ve built up a very good office. Everybody
said that.
Jesteri Yes, they did. They had a good office and a good
reputation to go with it and its reputation has
carried along for a good many years, too,
65
X WAHHENi PROM COUNTY PROSECUTOR TO CHIEF JUSTICE
MFi Right. Could you tell me again, now that the tape Is
on, why you think Warren had changed from the time he
was D.A. to the time he was Chief Justice.
Jesteri Well, I think I pretty well spelled It out. He was
a rigorous prosecutor going back to the box score.
He ran for election using that box score i he used It,
that box score, to set himself up as the best candidate
for the district attorney s office and subsequently,
the best candidate for the attorney general s
office.
He was a vicious prosecutor. I night not be
choosing the right word, the word "vicious," but I
think It describes what I mean by It. He let nothing
stand In his way of a successful prosecution. He d go
to any end for a successful prosecution.
Now, I think that what happened Is, when he put
on the robes and became the Chief Justice of the
United States he assumed, rightfully or wrongfully,
but he Just plain assumed that every other district
attorney, every other prosecutor In this land of
ours acted and was acting In the same manner In
which he himself had acted In the past I
He had In his own mind the ship murder case. He
had In his own mind the Page case. He had In his
own mind these many cases that he had that were
successful, In which, In my language, I would say
a few shortcuts were taken or maybe a few liberties
as It applies to some of the things that were done.
66
Jesten
MPi
Jesten
MF
particularly i I am thinking of this business of the big
issue that the accused must be given an attorney,
whether he asks for it or not, must be advised as
to his rights, whether he asks for it or not, must
be given a telephone and so forth* Well now, Mr*
Warren knows what happened during his day. So if
he had that assumption, if he took those robes with
that assumption that these other people were doing
that, then he just turned turtle, cause he was going
to correct all of these ills now and put this thing
on a different plane.
That s what I think happened. That s my
personal, private opinion and this doesn t take from
him any credit at all nor does it lessen my respect
for him and my kind remembrances of my association
with him. But that s what I think happened. When
you re calling a spade a spade you ve got to call it I
That s exactly what I think. A vicious prosecutor.
I ll tell you what, let me do It this way for
the purpose of explaining what I am trying to sayt
Deliver me from a reformed drunkard!
Now. Did I explain what I was getting at?
I think so.
A reformed drunkard j deliver me from them I You
know Just how miserable a reformed drunkard can make
It, for you and everybody else.
You have the people who were unreligious; all
of a sudden they get religion. Once they ve been
bit by this religion bug, by golly, they feel that
you have to have the same thing that they ve got or
you re not going to last one more day. Now maybe
that s a poor thing, but I will stand on the business
of the reformed drunkard. The reformed drunkard Is
the guy who is now out making it miserable for all
the rest of the people. I think that that will
explain it.
I may go on and ruin my explanation in discussing
further.
No, I think that s fine, that s really fine.
6?
Jesten Well, if you ve got anything else you can --
MFi You ve really given me a lot. There s a lot of
material here.
68
XI COURTROOM STYLES
Jesten I Insist that if you can get to Mr. Coakley and you
can get to Judge Cecil Mosbaoher
MFi Right, she s next on the list after I talk to Mr.
Coakley.
Jesters Say hello to Cecil for me, because I have a lot of
respect for her.
1*11 tell you why I like Cecil. She carried
the books for these men prosecutors for lo these
many years when she was in that office* She inter
viewed people for them, sort of engineered the
preparation of the case, not only the case in chief,
but in their rebuttal and their cross-ex. Always
she was the second party. She was never, in my
opinion, never given the credit to which she was
entitled.
MFi Was that because she is a woman?
Jesten Well, I think yes, in a sense, yes. In those days, in
a sense, yes. Not because she lacked in ability) God
knows that. But I think the other thing was there
was a question as to whether she would be forceful
enough before a Jury.
You know this business of cross-examination.
There was one of the greatest defense criminal lawyers,
to my mind I ve had a lot of experience in law
enforcement as you know, and the one that I thought
highly of, most highly of, was Leo Sullivan. He s
dead now, died recently.
If you had Leonard Meltzer and Leo Sullivan
69
Jesten
MFi
together In a oase on trial, down on Fourth and
Broadway, in that old courthouse, there was standing
room only. The word got around, people would oome down
to hear It* It was like going to a show. Those
two guys were good on their feet. Now I m talking
about a lawyer that was trying a oaee on his feet,
and good cross-examination.
1*11 tell you a story about Leo Sullivan and
myself. Call It a fictitious story, If you will, it s
the only way I can explain how good he was.
The doctor has been arrested for Issuing Illegal
prescriptions for drugs. So let s say it s mej I
walk in, lay down a warrant of arrest in front of the
doctor and he s sitting at his desk. I said, "Doctor,
we finally got you."
He hangs his head and he takes his forehead
in his two hands, like this, closes his eyes and he
lays, "Yes, yes, you have."
Now the law says that an Involuntary exclama
tion made at the time of the arrest, can be used as
a confession. It Is a confession, per se. So
let s assume that this doctor got his second wind,
and by the time I got ready to book him he wouldn t
tell me the light was lit.
Now, the district attorney wants to get in a
confession, and it is the only confession he has, the
doctor hanging his head in his hands and saying
[in a defeated tone], "Yes, yes, you have," in
answer to the proposition, "I
finally got you." Now.
That is being testified to, the voice inflection
the way I gave it. Leo Sullivan comes up and puts a
finger in your face and says, "Jester, isn t it true
that what the doctor said was, "Yes I You have!"
[forcefully]?
You see the difference?
Yes.
Jesten Same words, isn t it? [Forcefully] "Yes I You have."
See the difference? All right. That s what Leo
70
Jesten Sullivan was capable of. A lot of people aald he
didn t prepare himself before he went into court.
Well, if I was good as he was, and as he proved
himself, I wouldn t either. I wouldn t have to. He
wouldn t have to, but he did. He was good, and
Leonard Neltzer was just as good. When those two
guys got in it they would have some sparks flying,
in court believe me. [Laughter] Justice was always
done!
One thing about Leo Sullivan was, in all Warren s
time it was true, if he made you a promise he never
reneged. He never went back on his promise. As
long as I ve know the man, If he came in the D.A. s
office and said he was going to "cop" his client out,
you could bank on it, he wouldn t go back on a promise.
If he said he was going to use so and so as a witness
or he was going to approach the case this way, he
did. He never went back on his promise. But you d
better be ready to go into court and do battle in there
because he could cross-examine the hell out of your
witnesses and really do a job I
Well, so much for that.
MPi Thank you very, very much.
Transcriber: Arlene Weber
Final typist: Gloria Dolan
71
INDEX Lloyd Jester
Alameda County District Attorney s Office
Anti-racket squad, 45-46
Civil service, 20, 61-62
Department of Inspectors, 22- 5^
Kidnap squad, 44-45
Organization, 16-21
Alberts, George, 3^-35
Batto, 8
Becker, Sheriff Burton, 14-15, ****
Berkeley Gazette, 5^-55
Bike, Johnny, 12
Blagbourne, Charles, 13-l^t 19
Bootlegging, 3-12, 27
Brown, Anton Silva, 44
Chamberlain, Richard, 16, 48
Coakley, J. Frank, 15-17, 2k, 32, 41-44, 47-48, 58, 60-64, 68
Coakley, Tom, 63-64
Conner, Frank, 37
Courtney, Del, 64
Criminal procedures, 28-31, 3 5-37 65-66
State and federal compared, 3-12
Decoto, Ezra, 16
Driver, Sheriff Mike, 7. 38
Ferguson, Bessie, 15 17
Flint, Chester, 38-44
Gallo, Floyd, 8
Gambling, 25-27, 46-48, 53-55
Glavinovich, John, 5^
Glavinovich, Hose, .54
Goodnight, James, 40
Gosden murder case, 38-41, 48
Greening, Jack, 34, 55
72
Hard, George, 8, 22, 4-0
Hart, Brooke, kidnap-murder case, 29-30, 38, 44
Helms, George, 13, 18, 22-23, 47
Henningsen, George, 22, 51
King, Chen, 26
Hoover, J. Edgar, 56
Hotle, Oxl e, 17
Hoyt, Balph, 16, 48
Hunter, Robert, 16
Inspectors, Department of, District Attorney s Office
Cases, 25-28, 30-44, 46-48, 50-53
Duties, 48-49
Investigative aids, 28-30
Organization and administration, 22-25
Relations with deputies, 23-25
Jahnsen, Oscar, 13, 18, 22-23, 26, 44-47, 50-51
Japanese relocation, 46
Jensen, Lowell, 6l
Jester, Gwen, 1
Jester, John, 2
Jester, Leona, 1-2
Jester, Lloyd
Cases, 30-44, 46-48
Chief of Police, Albany, Calif. 54-55
Chief of Police, Fargo, N.Dakota, 56-57
Family background, 1
Joining the Alameda County District Attorney 1
s Office, 13-15, 58
Military service, 1-2, 55-59
Working for the Bureau of Prohibition, 3-12, 43-44
Johnson, Inspector, 34
Jones, Marie, 8
Kelly, Mike, 18
King, Earl, 33, 35-36
King, Ramsay, Conner case - see shipboard murder case
Kitsmiller, Charles, 47
Knowland, Joseph, 18
Lucey, Frank, 34
73
Mausoleum case, 41
Meltzer, Leonard, ly, 68-70
Miller, Nathan Harry, 51
Mosbacher, Cecil, 17, 24, 43, 48, 68
Oakland Tribune. 54-55
Ogden, Prank, 7-8
O Hara, Lee, 12
Olney, Warren III, 40
Page murder case, 30-33, 37, 65
Powers, Robert, 50-51
Prohibition Bureau - see U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau
of Prohibition
Riley s Free Press. 18-19
Roosevelt, President Franklin D. , 19
Ryken, Captain Charles, 37
Sheldack, Hank, 26
Shipboard Murder Case, 33-37, 48-49
Smith, Vernon, 33, 35, 47
Steele, John W. & Eva L. , 1
Stills, 3-12, 27-28
Sullivan, Leo, 31-32, 68-70
Tupper, Howard, 22
U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Prohibition, 1-13
Vollmer, August, 34, 55
Wallace, George, 49
Warren, Earl, 13-14, 22-25, 29, 35-36, 39, 41-43, 45
Attorney general, 19-20, 50, 54
Chief Justice, 52, 65-67
Compared with J. Frank Coakley, 60-64
Cooperation with Bureau of Prohibition, 3-12
Evolution of ideas, 65-67
Warren, Metthias, 50-52
Warren, Nina, 19
WCTU, 10-11
Webb, U.S., 19-20
Wehr, Charles, 18, 2^, 32-3^-t 36, 40
Wendland, Lloyd, 33-3^
Wixson, Cliff, 7
University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
Beverly R. Heinrichs
REMINISCENCES OF A SECRETARY IN
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
An Interview Conducted by
Miriam Feingold
1972 by The Regents of the University of California
Beverly R. McGarvie (Heinrichs)
ca. 1936
TABLE OF CONTENTS -
Beverly Heinrichs
BACKGROUND 1
JOINING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF 5
WORKING CONDITIONS .
7
Wages and Standards y
The Secretarial Pool a,
Office Morale 10
Political and Private Work n
SHIPBOARD MURDER CASE 13
TIGHT SPOTS 15
A VARIETY OF SECRETARIAL FUNCTIONS 17
MEMBERS OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF 20
RETURNING TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE 22
APPENDIX I: Personnel List of the District
Attorney s Office, 1936 23
INDEX 24
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Mrs. Beverly R. Heinrichs was interviewed by the Earl Warren Project
of the Regional Oral History Office in order to capture her reminiscences
of her work as secretary in District Attorney Earl Warren s office.
Discovering Mrs. Heinrichs was a delightful coincidence. The
Regional Oral History Office had from time to time sent some of its typing
work, including several Warren Project interviews, to the University s
Central Duplicating Service. The manuscripts were returned with a note
that the typist, Mrs. Heinrichs, had at one time worked as a secretary in
the district attorney s office, and many of the names and incidents she
typed were familiar to her. This was indeed a stroke of luck; the Earl
Warren Project had already interviewed several former deputy district
attorneys and inspectors, but had not yet found a secretary willing to be
interviewed.
Interviewer: Miriam Feingold
Conduct of
the Interview:
Editing:
A single interview was held on April 2U, 1972 in a small
office of the Regional Oral History Office. The inter
view lasted for about one hour.
Mrs. Heinrichs was somewhat nervous at first, but relaxed
during the course of the interview. She had brought notes
and memorabilia with her which she referred to occasionally
during the interview.
Editing of the transcribed taped interview was done by the
interviewer. Minor rearrangements of material were made
to maintain continuity of the discussion without interrupt
ing its informal quality. Mrs. Heinrichs very carefully
reviewed the edited text. She corrected several points and
made a number of additions to her comments.
Narrative
Account of the
Interview: Although only in the district attorney s office for one
year, Mrs. Heinrichs gives a broad picture of the duties of
the secretaries and of how the office functioned generally.
ii
She relates that in 1936, when she took the job, the
district attorney s office offered $150 a month, when
the going private rate was $125, but the district
attorney s office expected twenty-four hour service.
Secretaries were called out at all hours of the day
or night, she recalls, to take statements. She also
relates the standards of work and behavior that Earl
Warren expected from his employees.
Mrs. Heinrichs recalls how she was called out during
the shipboard murder case to take a statement at the
Piedmont jail where two longshoremen, one a defendant,
shared a "bugged" cell. Exciting cases such as this were
not rare, and she relates other tight spots secretaries
found themselves in.
In addition to work for the office, Mrs. Heinrichs recalls,
secretaries also did private work for the deputy district
attorneys, and work for the Masons and the Republican party.
She describes her impression of the influence of political
parties in the office.
Mrs. Heinrichs comments on office morale, and gives her
impressions of some of the attorneys in the office. She
concludes the interview by noting that in 19&3 she
returned, for a brief period, to the district attorney s
office, and she compares her work during her two periods
in the office.
Miriam Feingold
Interviewer
7 July 1972
Regional Oral History Office
U86 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
Date of Interview: April 2U, 1972
MRS. BEVERLY HEINRICHS: REMINISCENCES OF A SECRETARY IN
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
BACKGROUND
MF. Well, why don t we begin by your telling me a little bit about your
background. Where were you born?
BH: Well, I was born in Troy, New York, November 22, 1908, but my folks
moved out here when I was too young to remember, about six months old.
I ve been in California most all my life.
MF: So you grew up in the Bay Area?
BH: Yes, Alameda, Berkeley, and Oakland.
MF: Were your parents from New York originally ;
BH: No, my mother was Canadian and my father was Scotch-Irish. [Laughter]
They met in Canada.
MF: That s a real international blend. [Laughter]
BH: Mostly English, Scotch, and Irish.
MF: Then you went to school out here also.
BH: I went to school here. I graduated from Berkeley High in 1926. My
mother had died in 1923 and my father was not doing too well. My half-
sister who lives in San Diego and who worked for the San Diego Union-
Tribune as national credit manager for 1*9 years insisted I go to
business college before attending UC . She said, "You never know what
lies ahead and I d like you to be prepared by getting a business edu
cation before you go to Cal. I would not like to see you have to earn
your own living by being a waitress, working behind a counter, doing
housework, or trying to be a door-to-door saleswoman! I ll pay your
tuition and you can pay me back later."
My father and my aunt looked into the business college situation
and decided on Gallagher-Warsh Business College, then at 530-l?th
Street, Oakland, rather than Heald s Business College which was then
EH: almost next door, across the street from where the Roxie Theatre now
stands because individual instruction was available at the smaller
school.
They also decided I should take Gallagher-Marsh shorthand, then
the accepted shorthand taught in the San Francisco schools, instead of
Gregg, which was taught in the Oakland schools, because Gallagher-Marsh,
based on a Pitmanic shorthand system, was considered faster, more
accurate, and was more acceptable to the legal profession at that time.
This system involves shading and three different positions: above the
line, on the line, and below the line, whereas Gregg is written with
out shading all on one line. To graduate from the Gallagher-Marsh
Business s College you were required to type at least sixty words per
minute and take dictation at the rate of 150 words per minute for at
least half an hour. I finished what was supposed to be a seven months
course in five-and-a half months and was given a scholarship cup in
1927.
I repaid my sister after I secured my first Job in Oakland, work
ing for a real estate broker at 5911 E. lUth Street, where I made $65
a month as secretary, receptionist, bookkeeper, and girl Friday. My
boss was subsequently arrested and charged by the D.A. s office for
fraud in connection with misappropriation of a client s funds; I
think his name was Barrere, but this was several years after I had
left his employ. I didn t stay there long.
One of the temporary jobs I took was addressing envelopes from a
telephone directory, while sitting in the grandstand and typing with
the machine on a sawhorse for the man who ran the El Cerrito Dog Races.
I think his name was Black Jack Jerome. I believe Earl Warren s office
also closed him down when they were having the gambling troubles in
Emeryville and El Cerrito. The typists were paid $5 a day if they
typed 1,000 envelopes. It was a long day. I didn t do that very long!
The next job I took was with the California Teachers Association
on Center Street in Berkeley. I didn t stay there long either. I then
answered a newspaper ad for a secretary in San Francisco and secured a
position at $125 a month for the local manager of the National Tailor
ing Company, a mail-order tailoring concern at 525 Market Street, San
Francisco. The hours were nine to five and nine to one on Saturdays.
It was a one-man, one-girl office. I worked there for over two years
and then decided I wanted to go to Cal.
I attended classes at Cal, an academic course, from eight until
noon, five days a week. Miss Christie sent me to interview an archi
tect, Mr. E. Geoffrey Bangs, Ull-30th Street, Medical Center Building,
for which he was architect, and I worked for him from one to five and
on Saturdays.
MF; Who was she?
BH: Vera L. Christie was the manager of the UC Bureau of Occupations, then
located in Stephen s Union. She was head of that Bureau of Occupations
for years and through her I secured a number of very good positions .
She called me her "bad
penny" because I turned up so often wanting to
change jobs .
I also did extra typing for the Southgate Typing Bureau, now
located at 21*19 Durant, but then on Telegraph Avenue. It was run by
Mr. A. Beach Reading who was also a lawyer, but did not practice. It
was a typing bureau as well as a mimeograph shop and coaching school.
We typed piece-work, 100 for a double-spaced pica page I still work
off and on for this bureau, and we now get over $1.00 a page on
occasion!
At one time he asked me to take a deposition from an attorney and
a doctor on an accident case. They paid $10.00 an hour for the taking
of the notes and then paid by the page for the transcription. It was
most lucrative but extremely nerve-wracking because at that time I was
neither an experienced legal secretary nor a medical secretary, and
the words were really a challenge.
Through the typing bureau I also met Walter T. Steilberg, consult
ing architect one of the all-time greats in my books--as well as a
number of other people: Eugene Burdick, for whom I typed The Ugly
American , Fail-Safe, Nina s Book, etc., as well as some of his personal
correspondence and his work with the Political Science Department at
UC. I also typed part of Jonathan Garst s No Need for Hunger, for
which Hubert Humphrey wrote the blurb on the cover.
MF: And then when you went to work full time, where was that?
BH: I took out an indefinite leave of absence still have it! after six
months at the University and Miss Christie sent me to the superintendent
of Merritt Hospital in Oakland as his secretary. I worked there for
only about three weeks and decided medical work and taking dictation
in surgery! was not for me. Miss Christie then sent me to the Cali
fornia Art & Engraving Company, 2l63 Center Street, Berkeley, as
secretary to Earl C. Warburton, president of that company. They were
located upstairs from the old offices of L. S. & Z. (Lederer, Street &
Zeus) and they also had an office in San Francisco.
One payday when I was working at the California Art & Engraving
Company I went to the bank at the corner, cashed my paycheck, and then
went down the street to pay a garage bill. I noticed one of the
twenties the teller had given me was particularly dirty, and used it
first. Then I returned to work. Later in the afternoon I received a
BH: phone call from the FBI. The garage man had remembered I had given him
that particular bill and when he went to deposit it at the same bank
which had given it to me, but with a different teller, they had said
it was counterfeit two one-dollar bills glued together and then photo
graphed. The bill had come unglued. Since I worked for a photoengrav
ing concern they were highly suspicious.
The teller at the bank insisted he had not given me that particular
twenty. "Why, anybody could tell that was counterfeit," he said. I
didn t get so many twenties that I didn t know where that one had come
from! The FBI man went with me to the bank. He told the teller it was
customary for the bank to make good under such circumstances. We finally
went to the president of the bank who did make the twenty good. The
teller was very much put out.
Having satisfied himself of my innocence and that of the Cali
fornia Art & Engraving Company, the FBI man gave me his card and told
me if I ever got in trouble again to call him. Years later when I was
in the D .A. s office I met him again he was a good friend of Oscar
Jahnsen s and he remembered the occurrence. Fortunately, I have never
had a similar emergency which would warrant my calling in the FBI!
JOINING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF
BH: I got the job at the district attorney s office by answering an ad in
a newspaper. I put a special delivery stamp on the envelope which I
thought would make it stand out from the other applications.
[Laughter] Apparently it did. [Laughter]
MF: Was this pretty soon after you left Cal?
BH: No. I left Cal in 1929 and this was in 1936. I graduated from busi
ness college in 1927. I had worked for over two years when I decided
to go to Cal. That was a long, long time ago. Dates are kinda hard
to remember. I did a lot of Kelly-girl-type work on various part-
time jobs. If I got one job I didn t like I d only stay until I got
another one and then I d move on.
MF: Well, that s the way to do it and then you find a place you like.
BH: Well, I finally did after all these years. The job I have now I
like better than any of the rest of them as long as I am kept busy.
I ve never stayed so long in one full-time job in my life as I have
here. I like the variety.
MF: So, then you were just looking in the newspaper and you saw this ad
for the D.A. s office?
BH: I wish I d saved that clipping. Mr. Severin would remember it. I
didn t know the D.A. s office was the one advertising for a legal
secretary until I had the initial interview.
MF: And then they hired you?
BH: Yes, and I was there about six months. They kept me very busy. I
can t remember an idle moment. I had taken a civil service examina
tion for hearing reporter and I thought it would be fun to get such a
job. So I resigned from the D.A. s office and went up to Redding for
the Highway Department, and that lasted about one week. I didn t
like any part of it nor the hot weather. [Laughter] It was my first
job away from home.
BH: I came back. They said at the DJV. s office that they never rehired
anyone who had voluntarily quit, but they did, anyway, make an
exception in my case. I was kind of tickled about that. [Laughter]
MF: I guess they needed you.
BH: So I stayed just six months longer. Then I went back to New York to
get married.
I had a bit of trouble when I first applied to the district
attorney s office. In 1936, when I applied for the position in the
district attorney s office, I was required to produce a birth certi
ficate and ran into difficulties. My mother had written "Ethel
Gertrude McGarvie" on the original birth certificate, having decided
to name me after her sister and her sister-in-law. She then changed
her mind, after reading George Barr McCutcheon s Beverly of Graustark,
having fallen in love with the name "Beverly" and she then renamed me
Beverly Rolls her maiden name McGarvie, but the birth certificate
was not changed. The D.A. s office told me I would have to get
affidavits from my father, my brother, my half-sister and my aunt in
order to satisfy their requirements. This I did.
In 1963 when I again applied for a position in the prosecuting
attorney s office I went through the same thing and had to get more
affidavits. I also had trouble when I applied for my present job at
UC. I was never known as Ethel Gertrude McGarvie. Recently when I
applied for a passport, I ran into the same old difficulty.
WORKING CONDITIONS
Wages and Standards
MF: Well, you were telling me a little bit the other day about the wages
when you were first hired in the D.A. s office.
BH: Oh, yes. Well the newspaper ads would say. "top legal secretary
$125 a month," but the D.A. s office paid $150 at that time. But
it meant that you were on twenty-four-hour call. That is, the girls
took turns being the one that was told to stay in town over a weekend,
for instance. As far as I can remember we never received any over
time, but they would try and make it up to us in time off.
I think I told you, too, that when they hired extra help for an
emergency, they d pay those girls $1.50 an hour. Some of those girls
would sit there and add up their time, how much money they were making,
instead of typing as fast as we thought they should. [Laughter] We
felt it was adding insult to injury because in most cases we had to
retype their work the next day because they were not familiar with the
proper formats 1 [Laughter]
MF: That would come out to more than you were making.
BH: Actually, at that time the University of California was paying fifty
cents an hour for typing. And the D.A. s office only paid seventy-
five cents an hour for a part-time typist during the daytime. But
for the night work on a special rush it was a dollar and a half.
They would take us to dinner or lunch if we had to take a trip,
say, up to Ukiah, or down to Santa Cruz, or wherever we had to go to
report. They d send two inspectors with us and they d always feed us.
It was quite exciting, it really was.
MF: I m sure it was. So on several occasions you were the one that was at
home during weekends.
8
BH: That would get called out.
MF: And then would they come and pick you upV
BH: Oh, yes--two inspectors would call maybe at two o clock in the morning
1
.
MF: You mentioned to me there was a very strict rule about accepting
prizes .
BH: Oh, yes. Even if you won a bag of groceries at the local theatre
you couldn t accept it. Or if you won a radio, or if you, well, of
course you wouldn t buy a sweepstake ticket if you won you wouldn t
be able to accept the prize.
MF: Why was this?
BH: Because Mr. Warren was leaning over backward to see that no employee
of his could be accused of taking a bribe in any way, shape, or form.
At least that was my impression.
MF: I can see why he would do that. Can you remember any other rules
like that?
BH: No, none that they ever came right out and said. But I don t think
they would have appreciated it at all if you d been doing much bar-
hopping or anything of that sort. They investigated everybody quite
thoroughly before you ever got the job. I didn t know this until
afterward, but they went way back into your background and found out
your political affiliations. At least I think that was part of it.
And just what your record was, and who you associated with. Oscar
Jahnsen, I think, was one of the investigators who looked up the
various people that were to be employed.
MF: Did they go out and interview your friends?
BH: I don t know how far it went, but I know there was an investigation.
It was a security check on those who wanted to work there at that
time.
MF: I can see why they d want that.
BH: Well, there was a Communist scare, and the I.W.W. strike bit. I was
asking Clarence Severin if I ever took an oath never to repeat any
thing I d heard. He said he didn t think I had, but we understood
we weren t to talk about office work while a case was on in any way,
shape, or form. But he said after all it s forty years later now, so
I wouldn t worry too much about it. [Laughter]
The Secretarial Pool
MF: Who was your immediate superior?
BH: Clarence A. Severin was the chief clerk and office manager, and he
would more or less delegate the different jobs, but Rae Pollard was
the head of the secretarial pool. She would be the one that would
say Beverly take this call, or Veva take that call. We had big
reporters notebooks, and the one with the least work ahead of her
would be the one she d send out on a call.
We did work for all the attorneys in the office, their private
work as well as the county work, the Masonic work, or the Republican
work. We kept track of our time, and the individual attorneys or
organizations would pay for the services at the end of the month. It
all went into their bookkeeping system whatever it was then. But we
did keep track of every hour we spent.
MF: I see. This would be during a normal working day.
BH: Yes. Well, the county work would come first. But then, as I say,
each attorney was allowed his own private practice, and we d write
their personal correspondence, or wills or whatever it would entail.
I cannot remember any really slack times when a secretary would be
hard put to it to find something to do.
MF: And that you would do during a work day?
BH: During a work day. I was talking to Clarence and it seemed to me
that we worked six days a week well, we worked until one o clock on
Saturday. But I was under the impression we started at eight and he
said oh no, we never started that early. He thought it was eight-
thirty to five and until one on Saturday. And then you might be
called out in the meantime.
MF: Yes, I remember that they worked on Saturday because I know some of
the deputies mentioned that there was a staff meeting Saturday
morning. As secretaries you worked on a pool system?
BH: The one that had the least work on her book would be the one that
would go and take dictation from the call that came in. Sometimes
there would be a little dissension over that , who had the most work .
[Laughter j They thought Rae played favorites . They had a meeting
about that, too. I remember being called in to Ralph Hoyt s office;
he was one of Warren s chief assistant district attorneys. He was
later D.A. He was questioning Rae Pollard s fairness in delegating
the jobs. People can be funny when you work in a pool like that.
I had never worked in a large office before. The first job I
10
EH: had I was the only girl in the office and I didn t know what kind of
talk went on in a larger office until I went to the DA. s.
MF: About how many girls were there?
BH: Well, let s see if I can tell you. [Refers to list of office person
nel.] Edna Bowles was the one who made the most beautiful shorthand
notes you ever saw in your life almost like engravings there was
Edna Bowles, Rae Pollard, Florence Trombas, Veva Coates, Mabel
Middleton, let s see, one, two, three, Hilda Honett, four, Ray Lewicki,
Doris Bristol, Virginia, five, six, seven, eight well, there were
eight or nine or ten in our office. No, more than that, I guess.
They had girls in other offices, in the City Hall, and in Berkeley, and
there was one in Hayward. They had secretaries there, well, they
called them secretaries and that s what it amounted to.
MF: So, there were probably about a dozen.
BH: Just about, I would think, all told.
MF: Well, that s quite a difference from today. I ve been down to the
D.A. s office recently, and there are quite a few more now.
Office Morale
MF: You were mentioning also the other day about the Christmas party, and
that made me wonder about the general morale in the office, if it was
a close-knit office or what it was like.
BH: Well, that was the only party that I ever went to from the D.A. s
office. It was a memorable occasion. If you ever talk to Ray
Lewicki about it she might tell you more. They put on what I thought
was a really marvelous skit. One part I remember now after all these
years was something about an index to an index to an index. It was
very clever. Mrs. Warren was there and of course Earl Warren was
there. There was some drinking. Mrs. Warren never touched a drop
as far as I know she never did. But one or two of the attorneys did
sort of overdid it. But it was quite a party. It was held at the
Sequoia Country Club. It s the only party I ever remember during the
time I was there, but as I say, I was only there about a year.
MF: Did it seem to be a fairly warm, close-knit office?
BH: It would be pretty hard for me to judge that. I know that I thought
there were more politics involved than any of the reports I ve typed
mention. I really did think that unless you were a Republican you
11
BH: would never have gotten a job. I don t know whether this is what I
should say or not but this was my impression. At the time I thought
there was only one Democrat in that whole office, and that there was
only one Catholic in that whole office, and that was J. Frank Coakley.
Mr. Severin says I m wrong that there were others.
Nathan Harry Miller was Jewish, and he was very well liked and
fair to the union people. He was quite a guy. Getting back to that
Christmas party, he didn t approve of the girls wearing earrings, so
he said would we please not. But everybody did, just to be ornery
about it. That wasn t very nice. [Laughter]
Political and Private Work
MF: You mentioned before something about working on Republican and Masonic
correspondence. Could you tell me a little more about that?
BH: Well, as far as the Masonic work was concerned we always put in a slip,
how much time we had devoted to Masonic work. They kept strict track
of that. But it is my recollection that the work that we did after
hours and out of hours on these campaigns were never listed or accounted
for in the books. It was just we just took it for granted that we d
better donate some time, and the office staff did. There was maybe
some grumbling about it now and then, but as far as I can recollect
we were never paid for that or given time off for that later. It was
just something that we were expected to do to show loyalty to the chief.
They always called Earl Warren the chief, or at least Helen MacGregor
always did.
MF: So when you would do this campaign work it was scrt of overtime, but
you wouldn t get paid for it.
BH: Yes. As far as I remember we never wrote out an hourly report on it
as we did for the private work for the Masons or for the attorneys.
Now I could be wrong because this was forty years ago. This is my
recollection.
MF: I think there was an important national election that year. Were you
a Republican yourself at the time?
BH: I was at that time. And then I married a very pro-union man and became
a Democrat. The only reason I became a Republican was because my
father had very strong feelings about that. It didn t make any differ
ence to me; I didn t take any issue with it one way or another. But I
understood it was fortunate that when I applied for that job that I was
a Republican. Now I definitely had that impression. Mr. Severin says
I m wrong.
12
MF: Well, I could talk to him and ask him about it.
BH: Oh, he d be just a mine of information; he s a remarkable person.
You d enjoy talking to him.
MF: I m going to get in touch with him this week.
13
THE SHIPBOARD MURDER CASE
MF: You mentioned that one of the cases that occurred when you were in
the office was the shipboard murder case. Could you tell me how you
were involved with that case?
BH: Well, two inspectors, Clarence Severin was one of them, called and
picked me up about two o clock, two or three o clock in the morning.
Anyway, it was the wee small hours, and they drove me to the Piedmont
jail with my shorthand notebook. I sat there for hours and hours and
hours and took down every intelligible word that I could hear. There
were two stevedores or longshoremen talking, and there were lots of
unmentionable words that I didn t recognize at that time. When I d
ask Mr. Severin, "What did he say?" he d get a little red and say,
"I m glad you didn t hear that." [Laughter] I was particularly naive
at that time. I hadn t heard or dreamed they talked that kind of
language. It was really pretty rough language.
MF: So, there were lots of blanks in your transcript. [Laughter]
BH: Oh, yes, I had blank, blank, blank. I had a horrible time trying to
transcribe that particular session. It was quite a long session as
I remember. I got back to the old courthouse quite a bit later, maybe
just before noon. I don t know how long I sat there. I know I never
went to the restroom because I was too embarrassed to ask where it
was . [Laughter ] Ridiculous , of course . Clarence kidded me about
being a camel, later.
MF: Can you remember who were making the statements?
BH: I think one was Ramsay. I asked Clarence about that and he thought it
was Ramsay and the other one, I ve forgotten now.
MF: Was Murphy the other oneV
BH: I m not sure that it was Ramsay and Murphy that were in the Piedmont
jail at that time. I can t remember that. I know I was quite excited
about the whole thing. It seemed such a horrible thing.
MF: Yes, it must have been quite an exciting case at the time. During
that whole period was there much fear of actual physical violence?
BH: You mean at the courthouse?
MF: Yes.
BH: Well, I can remember seeing some sandbags. And Clarence says that was
right, that they did have sandbags around the courthouse. The county
jail was just a stone s throw from the old courthouse. The prisoners
behind the bars would yell nasty cracks at you as you went out at
noon if you used the back entrance. But as far as any actual demon
strations or riots or anything, I never heard that it had ever got
that far. They figured it would, for a while there.
MF: Did they actually go as far as having bodyguards and things like that?
BH: Not that I know of. Earl Warren, I understood, always refused to have
a bodyguard. But, they, unbeknownst to him, would maybe send a car
up to his home or keep it under surveillance.
MF: Well, I can imagine those were rough times.
BH: Yes, but nothing like today.
MF: They wouldn t want to risk injury to the D.A. Was that your only
involvement in the case then 2
BH: As far as that case went. I did some typing on it later. But that was
the only statement that I can remember that I took first.
MF: Where did they have you set up in this jail, in a separate little
room?
BH: Yes, where they couldn t see nor hear me.
MF: And presumably there was a microphone in the cell.
BH: I imagine. It certainly had a loudspeaker effect; it really blasted.
You could hear all the sounds, too, like running water. I opened my
mouth to ask Clarence what that was and then decided I d better not.
It had finally dawned on me that somebody was flushing the toilet in
the cell. Oh, it was really quite an education.
15
TIGHT SPOTS
MF: You mentioned some other funny spots that some of the secretaries
found themselves in.
EH: Oh, yes, one girl that was I ve forgotten the particular case but
there was firing involved, I mean a gunshot. The door slammed in the
other room and she thought it was a gunshot. She bounced out of the
closet. The people she was trying to listen to didn t catch her, but
it gave her quite a scare.
I had quite a turn the time I was behind the curtain and there
was a phone right at my elbow. I was afraid the phone would ring
and somebody would come in and find me busily trying to take down
shorthand notes. But fortunately for me they didn t.
MF: Kept you on pins and needles though.
BH: That was a gold mining stock fraud case of some sort. It was in a
little old tenement -sort house way downtown below San Pablo, I think.
Two inspectors had taken me there. I think Clarence Severin was one
of them.
MF: And what was your job? They put you behind this curtain?
BH: To take down everything that was said in the other room, between the
man that was supposed to be a con man, and the intended victim, who
was maybe going to get hooked on buying his phoney stock.
MF: Well, I gather they never caught you?
BH: No, I was really remarkably lucky. [Laughter] I went out on call as
many times as the rest of the girls that year, I guess. I don t
know that any of them ever got caught. They had some really narrow
escapes. I remember in one of the abortion cases there was a narrow
escape because the girl was pretending that she was pregnant. She
wasn t in fact, she had just started her period things got to the
point where they almost had her on an operating table before the
inspectors came and arrested them. That would have been really
something .
16
MF: You mean this was one of the girls from the office?
EH: Well, one of the undercover girls that we heard about at the time.
MF: This is interesting, I knew that they used undercover men but I didn t
realize that there were any undercover women. But I could see in a
case like that they would have to have an undercover woman.
BH: One of my dearest friends was one of the undercover women. She died
very recently. She s on this list here. A remarkable person. Her
name was Helen Jones. She did a lot of work for the D^A. s office.
They also had a girl who did stenotype too, that did outside work for
them. They didn t use the stenotype in our office because they claimed
the little click on the keys would make the person giving a deposition
nervous, and they preferred the shorthand. But they did use the steno
type in court actions on some of the cases. Actually, I never had to
testify in court but the other girls sometimes did, I know, on certain
cases, take the witness stand.
17
A VARIETY OF SECRETARIAL FUNCTIONS
MF: You also mentioned the Oakland school board case.
BH: Well, I just said we did work for the city of Oakland. But there was
a case in Alameda where there were city officials involved. It was
quite a scandal at that time, but I didn t do too much work on that.
I just remember that was one of the cases at that time.
MF: And you also did work for the Oakland school board?
BH: Yes, the district attorney s office did work for the county superin
tendent of schools, I guess, the board of education, and the board
of supervisors. The attorneys that had charge of the board of educa
tion work one s name was Agnes Polsdorfer, and Robert McCreary was
the other one.
MF: Agnes Polsdorfer still lives in Berkeley.
BH: I was at her home once, on Ashby Avenue, I think it was, near the
Hotel Claremont. The other lady lawyer whom we all liked so well I
thought she was a dollshe is a judge now.
MF: Cecil Mosbacher?
BH: Cecil Mosbacher, yes.
MF: I think she was in the D.A. s office very early. She had been a wel
fare worker for the welfare department before that. I think she
joined the office very early. Agnes Polsdorfer had too, which always
interested me that there were several women attorneys.
BH: Yes. Helen MacGregor was an attorney. Always surprised me because
as far as I know she didn t do any private practice at all. She just
did secretarial work for Earl Warren, as far as we could figure out.
But of course her legal training came in very handy.
MF: I think she did a lot of research.
18
MF: Well, you alao mentioned an investigation of a motorcycle accident?
BH: Yes, that was rather funny because we were having a party at the house
when I got called. It was a Sunday. I had had two drinks at least.
I went upstairs and gargled with Listerine. When the two inspectors
came and got me in the car they drove way out in Hayward someplace.
There had been a motorcycle accident. This young deputy district
attorney was an eager beaver, and he said to the fellow whom he was
interrogating, "I seem to smell alcohol. Have you had a cocktail?
11
I was horrified, because I thought maybe he was smelling my breath.
And the guy said, "Yes."
[Laughter] The deputy eagerly asked "What
kind of a cocktail?" And the guy said, "Crab before dinner." The
deputy s face got a little red. He said later, "That sure stopped
me on the one-yard line!" I think this was about nine o clock at
night.
MF: Do you remember any of the other cases that stand out in your mind?
BH: No, I can t say that I do at the moment. The ship murder was the big
one, of course. The others were justoh, there was one about child
molesting that was a little bit sordid, on the sordid side. The girls
in the office got quite excited about that. Some of the dictation
was a little rough. I can t really remember many of the others that
stood out in my mind. The board of education work was very boring,
I remember that lots of statistics, etc.
MF: I can imagine after the ship murder case--
BH: Yes. The board of education statistics were dry typing. [Laughter]
Clarence Severin used to bring in the reports for the month on those
long sheets, tabulations, so many felonies, so many robberies, so many
this, that, and the other. They used to be quite a chore. Nobody
particularly enjoyed typing those, but we did it, of course, if we
weren t doing something else more important at the time. [Laughter]
I remember the scrapbooks very vividly. They had that Allan Press
Clipping Service. They had an enormous big scrapbook. Have you ever
seen one of the scrapbooks?
MF: I ve seen them at Warren Olney s office. There was one girl whose
job it was to paste the articles in the book?
BH: More or less, yes. She was sort of a girl Friday. She did other odd
jobs, too, such as filing and running errands.
They had a switchboard there. Once in a while they d call on
one of the secretaries to take over at noon, or if Hazel Yoder was
absent. It was a very busy board. It used to horrify me for fear
they d call on me, because I had never been very good at a switchboard
19
BH: and had never had any such training. [Laughter] That was one of the
names I couldn t remember until I saw it on my list.
MF: Hazel Yoder?
BH: Yes. She was the switchboard operator. Sort of an information girl.
Well, Clarence Severin was on the counter in the outer office. He
would have been the first one you saw when you came in. This was,
of course, at the old courthouse, really old. Great high ceilings.
The new one was very different .
MF: Do you remember any of the other people V As you look through the
list did any of the names
BH: [Referring to the list of office personnel] I remember most all of
them, some more, some less. I remember the name of the attorney from
Hayward I couldn t remember it at first it was Joseph Schenone.
MF: Oh, yes. I was talking to Mr. Coakley at the district attorney s
office one day when Mr. Schenone came in to say hello.
BH: Yes, he was the one. Some of them I had forgotten completely. I
can t be sure I remember the name of the young deputy district attorney
at the Christmas party but I think it was J. Kennedy Jackson. I had a
guilty conscience because he had dictated something to me out of a law
book. He had read it so fast that I couldn t keep up with him. So
rather than stop him my eyes were in better condition in those days
I wrote down the name of the book, page number and article number.
[Laughter] Then after he got through dictating I went to the law
library and copied the passage from it. Later he complimented me on the
job I d done, "My God, you re accurate
"
I had Just smiled and thanked
him. Well, apparently my conscience was bothering me, because the
night of the Christmas party after I had had a drink or two, I confessed
to him what I had done and proceeded to quote the entire passage from
the law book he told me the next work day verbatim. I ve never had
a photographic memory like that before or since. It was really sort of
a funny incident; my chum couldn t believe her ears. She was standing
right by me when I recited the passage. It had something to do with a
prostitution case. [Laughter] Isn t that ridiculous, one of those
funny things that you don t forget. [Laughter]
MF: I guess you got to know pretty much which ones
BH: What you could do and what you couldn t do, too, Well, it seemed like
such a waste of time for them to sit there and read it out of the
book, when all they had to do was tell you that such and such a page,
quote from this page. That would be more accurate, nine times out of
ten. You could check your work. Some of them were beautiful dictators
and some of them were not.
20
MEMBERS OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF
MF: Do you remember Charlie Wehr?
BH: Oh, yes.
MF: What was he like?
BH: A mighty-big German. I heard quite a few rumors around about him
MF: What sort of rumors?
BH: Oh, that he ate a lot. [Laughter] He was inclined to overdo and over
indulge. I don t know whether they were true or not. From what little
I remember, when one person had one piece of pie he d have two. These
were just little things the girls would talk about. He died shortly
after I was there, I believe. I used to take dictation from him
occasionally. The secretaries rather stood in awe of him. He was
supposed to be quite a brain, I understood.
MF: Was he good at giving dictation?
BH: As far as I remember. Actually I never took much dictation from him
nor from Earl Warren in the year I was there. I took more from J.
Frank Coakley, Ralph Hoyt, Nathan Harry Miller, Bob Hunter, Richard
Chamberlain, and most all the others. As I say, it was a secretarial
pool, and you didn t often get called by the chief. He wasn t in the
office too much of that time, as far as I remember. He certainly
wasn t there everyday by any matter of means. We d go for a long time
and never see him at all.
MF: Do you remember any of the others in the office particularlyv
BH: The men ; You mean the attorneys? Well, I remember Laurence Dayton,
Folger Emerson he s at UC now, isn t he? Or he was for a while?
MF: Folger Emerson is a superior court judge.
BH: Oh, he is? And there was one down here in Berkeley for a while. I
21
BH: remember Owen Hotle; Bill Quinn and J. Kennedy Jackson were two of
the younger deputy district attorneys. Incidentally, I also remember
one of the Caldecotts later was a deputy district attorney. I knew
Thomas E. Caldecott, later a supervisor, when he and his brother and
sister owned a drugstore in my old neighborhood, long, long ago and I
remember the two red-headed sons. I think it was Thomas E. Jr. who was
on Earl Warren s staff.
Oscar Jahnsen, one of the inspectors Robert McCreary was the
board of education man Leonard Meltzer he was a really interesting
person. He died very diortly after I was there. I had always hoped I
might sometime see him in action in court because he was so dynamic,
so dramatic, and I thought it would be wonderful to be a bystander
when he was trying a case. Somehow or other you never seem to get
around to doing things like that. I remember George Perkins but not
too distinctly. Marshall Ricksen I remember, mainly I guess because
his wife presented him with twins and everybody was quite excited. I
think he was practicing in Berkeley later on. And Arthur Sherry
Isn t he at UC~or was at one time ;
MF: Yes. He s at the law school.
BH: Well, I can t think of anything else just now.
22
RETURNING TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
MF: You returned to the D.A. s office then in 62?
BH: No, I think it was in 63 because it was just from 36 to 63 I
always think of it in transposition there. I didn t like it the
second time. They didn t keep me busy enough and I didn t work in
the main courthouse; I worked in the prosecuting attorney s office.
The work consisted of typing a name and an offense and a number,
answering the counter and the switchboard. That always bothered me,
too. I didn t get much heavy typing and there was little shorthand,
both of which I ve always liked. So then I got in touch with the
University again. I only stayed at the prosecuting attorney s office
for about two months, February and March. I went to work at the
University the first of April, April Fools Day, nine years ago.
MF: And you ve been with the University ever since?
BH: For nine years, nine years this April.
MF: Well, it s a real circle you came then. Here you are, back talking
about the D.A. s office.
BH: Yes, actually I did temporary work at the University in 1929. If I d
stayed with them all these years I d have been way ahead. [Laughter]
but maybe I wouldn t have had as much experience.
MF: Well, I can t think of any other questions. I think we ve gotten some
very valuable information.
BH: Well, I hope I haven t said too much or too little. [Laughter]
MF: No, no, you haven t at all.
Transcriber : Lavinia Limon
Final Typist: Beverly Heinrichs
23
APPENDIX I
2W.
8896
1908
2441
0400
4371
4441
4765
2883
7378
3355
1343
1019
4860
6754
3G36
73B4R
1423
6868
2400
6220M
9757
6072
2419
1414W
5231
1021W
8780
6389R
3587
6567J
5134W
5298
9887
0603
1748
5488
3477
8918
0358
3624
6325J
5534
6800
0639W
1730
9528
3786
8131
3768
8467
4295W
..--.Ax^A.
I
Bristol, Irs, Doris E.
Chamberlain, R.H.
Coaklcy, J.F.
Coatcs, Veva Elizabeth
Dayton, Laurence E.
Emerson, Folgoir
Fletcher, Lr.wronce S.
Flint, Chester fi.
Freeman, Jcries H.
Hard, George G.
Helms, George J.
Kcnningsen, George >
Honott, Miss Hilda \j
Ho tie, Jr. , Owen E.
Hcyt, Ralph E.
Hunter, R. Robert
Jackson, F. Kennedy
Jahns^n, Oscar J. .
King, Miss Virginia
Lewlcki, Ray
MacGregor, Helen R.
Mallon, Mildred E.
McCrcary, Robert K.
Mcltzer, Leonard J,"-
Middletor, Mrs. Mabel
(c/o Mrs. I.
ccK-jnEic)
Miller, Nathan Harry
Mosbachcr, Cecil
Myers, Miss Alva
Nceland, Lewis J.
Oakley, Jr.mes H.
Perkins, Gecrgj C -
Petcrsen, Evelyn
Pollard, Mrs. Rac C
Polsdorfer, Agnes R.
Q,uinn, William H.
/
foisaoricr, Agnes f
Q,u inn, William H. -
Rcyland, Frederick
Tj^i, nn ^ Mnrsr-"
1
"
Mildred
f _ .
ROOS, ivix
Schenone, Joseph -<
Sever in, Clarence A.
Sherry, Arthur ~.
Smallwood, Stanley C.
Spencer, Glen
Styles, Harry E ..
Tupper, Howard E.
~
Trombas, Miss Florence
Warren, Earl
Wchr, Charles D.
Wostphal, Jr., Th.
Yodcr, Mrs. Hazel
.
Thco .A.
1038 McKlnloy Ave., Oakland
114 Manor Drive, Piedmont
786 Culmar, Oakland
1438-79th Avenue, Oakland
3567 Redwood Road, Oakland
5940 Thornhill Drive, Oakland
445 Mountain Avo., Piedmont
1255 St. Charles, Alumeda
2427 Ililgard, Berkeley
1015 Merced Street, Berkeley
445 Beverly Avenue, San Leandro
279 Soto Street, Hayward
1502 Alice Street, Oakland
43 Dormidcra Avenv.e, Piedmont
1849 Tr.coma Avenue, Berkeley
o553-14th Avenue, Oakland
811 Highland Avenue, Piedmont
3G2 Vernon, Oakland
^528 Oxford Street, Berkeley
2804 Lincoln Avenue, Alamo da
731-60th Street, Oakland
2885 Hannah Street, Oakland
1059 Undcrhills Road, Oakland
2932 Harper Street, Berkeley
1090 Ardmore Avonue, Orkland
863 Hvjnpton :
3
iOad, Haywrrd
889 Walker Avenue, Oaklrnd
28 Domingo Avcnurj, Berkeley
436 Oakland Avenue, Oakland
2806 Clry Street, Alamcda
242 John Street, Oakland
385 Orrrigc Street, Oakland
4021 .t
^ua V^.sta, Ockl.ind
1918 Lakcshore Avenue, Oakland
2C33 Russell Street, Berkeley
1558-3-ith Street, Oaklrnd
617-29th Street, Oakland
1594 LcRoy Avenue, Berkeley
393-50th Street, Ocklrnd
Athens Club
4635 Benovidcs Avenue, Oakland
3005 Benvenuo Avoruo, Berkeley
2001 Alls ton Way,Fcrkcley
2438 Palmetto Street, Oakland
3116 Lakeshore Blvd., Ockland
455 McAuley Street, Orkland
671 Sybil Avenue, San Leandro
8C Vernon Street, Oaklrnd
2138 Derby Streot, Berkeley
5 Bowles Place, Orklond
2512 Ercinal Avenue, Alamcda
11-27-36
24
INDEX BEVERLY R. HEINRICHS
Alameda, California, 1
Alameda County District Attorney s Office
in 1963, 22
morale, 10-11
personnel, 10, 20-21
politics, 9-10
private practice, 9
secretarial wages, 7
standards, 8
Allan Press Clipping Service, 18
Bangs, E. Geoffrey, 2
Berkeley, California, l
Black Jack Jerome, 2
Bowles, Edna, 10
Bristol, Doris, 10
Caldecott, Thomas E., 21
California Art & Engraving Company, 3-
Chamberlain, Richard, 20
Christie, Vera L., 2-3
Coakley, J. Frank, 11, 19-20
Coates, Veva, 9-10
Communism, 8
Dayton, Laurence, 20
El Cerrito, California, 2
Emerson, Folger, 20
Emeryville, California, 2
Fraud, 15
Gallagher-Marsh Business College, 1-2
Gambling, 2
Garst, Jonathan, 3
Heald s Business College, 1
25
Heinrichs, Beverly
background, 1-4
cases and responsibilities, 13-19
Joining the district attorney s staff, 5-6
return to the district attorney s office, 22
working conditions, 7-12
Honett, Hilda, 10
Hotle, Owen, 21
Hoyt, Ralph, 9, 20
Hunter, Robert, 20
Jackson, J. Kennedy, 19, 21
Jahnsen, Oscar, U, 8, 21
Jones, Helen, 16
King, Ramsay, Conner case - see shipboard murder case
Lewicki, Ray, 10
MacGregor, Helen, 11, 1?
McCreary, Robert, 21
McGarvle, Beverly - see Heinrichs, Beverly
Masons, 9-11
Meltzer, Leonard, 21
Middleton, Mabel, 10
Miller, Nathan Harry, 11, 20
Mosbacher, Cecil, 17
Oakland, California, 1
Olney, Warren, III, 18
Perkins, George, 21
Politics - see Republican party
Pollard, Rae, 9
Polsdorfer, Agnes, 17
Ramsay, Ernest, 13-11
*
Reading, A. Beach, 3
Republican party, 9, 11
Ricksen, Marshall, 21
Severin, Clarence, 5, 8-15, 18-19
26
Sherry, Arthur, 21
Shipboard murder case,
Steilberg, Walter T., 3
Troy, New York, 1
University of California, Berkeley, 1-5, 21-22
Warren, Earl - see also Alameda County District Attorney s Office, 8-10,
11, Ik, 17, 20
Warren, Nina, 10
Wehr, Charles, 20
Yoder, Hazel, 18
University of California The Bancroft Library/Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
Clarence Severin
CHIEF CLERK IN THE ALAMEDA COUNTY
DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
An Interview Conducted by
Miriam Feingold
(c) 1973 by The Regents of the University of California
Clarence Severin s identification badge issued by the Alameda
County District Attorney s Office.
TABLE OF CONTENTS - CLARENCE SEVER IN
INTERVIEW HISTORY
BACKGROUND 1
Family and Education 1
Early Work Experience 3
JOINING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF h
FUNCTIONS OF THE CHIEF CLERK 6
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE 11
Choosing the Staff 11
Staff Relations lU
Office Rules 16
Private Practice and Outside Work 17
Undercover Operators 19
The Shipboard Murder Case 21
The Methias Warren Murder Case 25
Chester Flint and the Subversive Files 26
Crime Commissions 28
Comments on Staff Members 29
A Gambling Raid 32
Comments on Staff Members, Continued 3^-
INDEX Ul
[NTERV1EW HISTORY
Clarence A. Severin was interviewed for the Earl Warren Project of
the Regional Oral History Office in order to capture his reminiscences of
his service in the Alameda County District Attorney s Office as chief
clerk.
Interviewer: Miriam Feingold
Conduct of A single interview of about two hours duration was held on
the Inter- August 30, 1972 at the Masonic Temple in Oakland, where Mr.
view: Severin is now serving as executive secretary to the Oakland
Masonic Association. Mr. Severin and the interviewer sat in
a large, comfortable sitting room, one of the many spacious
rooms in the functional and modern Masonic Temple building.
After the interview Mr. Severin graciously provided the inter
viewer with milk and cake in the Temple s spotless kitchen.
Mr. Severin had refreshed his memory of dates and places with
a brief chronology provided by the interviewer. In a prelim
inary session, a general outline of topics to be discussed
was agreed upon, and the interview closely followed the out
line.
Mr. Severin, a great admirer of Earl Warren, spoke in a
relaxed manner. That he considered it a high honor to have
served Warren was evident in the ease with which he recalled
events of thirty and forty years ago.
Editing: Editing of the transcribed, taped interview was done by the
interviewer. Little editing was necessary. Mr. Severin
thoroughly reviewed the edited text, correcting a number of
points and reworking several pages of the manuscript to make
his meaning clearer without changing the general theme of
the oral conversation.
Narrative Mr. Severin begins the interview by relating how he was
Account of trained for clerical work in high school. He recalls that it
the Inter- was through Masonic connections that he was referred to
view: District Attorney Earl Warren, who needed a chief clerk to
organize the office.
Mr. Severin describes the new filing system he helped create,
and the invaluable assistance provided by the WPA in
ii
furnishing manpower to complete the maaslve task of filing
and reorganizing the office. This task, he adds, was com
plicated by the move of the district attorney s office to
the new courthouse in Oakland in early 1937. Mr. Severin
was also responsible for creating a new and more efficient
method of handling and storing evidence.
Mr. Severin discusses in some detail the functioning of the
office. He describes Warren s method of selecting and train
ing his staff, and the office rules which assured absolute
integrity. As chief clerk, he relates, he handled the com
plex system of billing for private work done by secretaries
in the office. He also offers his perspective on the work
of undercover operators, the office s files on subversives,
and several of the office s more important cases.
As chief clerk, Mr. Severin was acquainted with the entire
office staff, and comments in the interview on several
deputies, inspectors, and secretaries. Having remained in
the district attorney s office after Warren left, Mr.
Severin compares Warren with his successors, Ralph Hoyt and
J. Frank Coakley.
Miriam Feingold
Interviewer-Editor
5 October 1972
U86 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
r>!it.> or Interview: August 30, 1.97P
BACKGROUND
Family and Education
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
I d like to start off with a little bit of background about
you personally. So, could you tell me where you were born
and where you grew up?
Well, I was born in San Francisco on NovombBr 12, 1898 in
Children s Hospital over there. My mother and father were
living in Hawaii at the time; they didn t live in the (Jnited
States at that time, and my mother wanted me to be an American
citizen. So, they came to San Francisco and I was born in
Children s Hospital and then went back to Hawaii.
What were your parents doing in Hawaii?
My father was a professional photographer and he went into
business down there professionally. Then my brother was born
two years and five months later. The same thing happened. My
mother came back to the States and went back and shortly after
that my father died down there of sunstroke. Then my mother
came to the States and we ve been here ever since. Her folks
lived here. They were from New York and they came to the West
Coast; the whole family did.
Oh, I see. I was going to ask how they happened to come out
here. Do you know?
When they came out, they came around the Horn by boat. It s
an old family dating back to the revolutionary days. They
lived in Buffalo, New York, and they just migrated out here.
They liked it out here, stayed here and passed away here.
How about your father s family? When did they come out here?
My father s family were German. My father s mother was born
i t vrln: in liemum.v and 1 don t know much about their background. M,y
father diod when 1 was so young that I didn t get much informa
tion concerning his family background. But they were a large
family too, quite a large family, German people, lots of aunts
and uncles. They lived in San Francisco, still some are around.
Feingold: What were the names of your mother and father?
Severin: My mother s maiden name was Ida Wiesel Alberger and my father s
name was Frank Anton Severin. They were married in San Fran
cisco and my father went into business as a professional photog
rapher and shortly after that they went to Honolulu to live.
When I was down there as a young child, I learned the Kanaka
language .
Feingold: Can you still speak it?
Severin: No, I have completely forgotten it. I lived there until it was
time to come back to San Francisco and I have been here ever
since. I have never been back. I ve been all over the South
Pacific and the Pacific Ocean area but I ve never gone back to
Honolulu. It was in 1901 when my father died, so I have never
been back since that year, strange as that sounds.
Feingold: Would you like to go back some time?
Severin: After what I hear about the way it is at the present time, no.
It s too commercialized. I don t think so. I have no particu
lar interest in going back. I know nobody there.
Feingold: Yes, you were very young when you left.
Severin: I was just three years old then.
Feingold: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Severin: Just one brother. He died about three years ago. He was
younger than I was. He was born just before my father died.
Feingold: So then you went to school in San Francisco?
Severin: Yes, I completed all my schooling in San Francisco. I gradu
ated from the High School of Commerce which, as you know, is a
school preparing you for commercial life. I learned stenog
raphy, shorthand, typing, Spanish, bookkeeping, accounting, et
cetera.
Feingold: So that s where you learned those commercial skills.
Severin: Yes, that s right. I graduated from there and then I went to
work. I did clerical work practically all my life. That s
why Mr. Warren must have selected me to run his office because
I had that background, you see.
Feingold: How did you become interested in going into clerical work and
going to the High School of Commerce?
Severin: I just had the tendency for that kind of work somehow or other.
I just wanted to do that kind of work; I had a bent for it. I
was no mechanic and no professional man, so I had no particular
skills. Clerical work appealed to me and I took the accounting
along with it, of course. I tried electrical engineering but
I wasn t made for that.
Early Work Experience
Feinp.old: When you graduated from high school did you go straight to work?
Severin: Yes, I went to work in a florist s shop in San Francisco. I
did his bookkeeping and his billing and clerical work along
with deliveries. I was only a teenager then and I wae there for
several years.
Then my uncle, William R. Alberger, my mother s brother,
was vice president and general manager of the Key System. That
was the traction company over here and he offered me a job in
the Key System. That was in 1916 or 1917, I think. So, I took
the job and stayed in Oakland. I met my wife there, Koneta M.
Jackson. She was also working for the Key System. We were
married July 1, 1920. Years later the Key System reorganized
and was bought out by some other firm, so they let most of us
out.
Then I went to work for an insurance company in San Fran
cisco doing clerical work as a stenographer. When they went
broke during the depression years of the 1930 s, I went with
the California Corrugated Culvert Company in Berkeley, doing
clerical work, stenography, et cetera. They had quite a large
office in Berkeley and they did all the highway construction
work in the western states. I worked there until June 30,
1935. It was rather an interesting place to work. The stenog
raphers were all males. They had no women working anywhere in
the organization.
JOINING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S STAFF
Severin: It was while I was there that Mr. Warren asked me to come down
to see him at the courthouse and I had no idea at the time as
to what he wanted. I just got word through a friend that Mr.
Warren would like to talk to me. At that time, I was master
of my Masonic Lodge, Live Oak Number 6l, F and AM, and I
thought that some member was in trouble with the district
attorney s office. I went down there expecting to hear that
somebody needed to be straightened out, and, to my surprise,
Mr. Warren offered me a job as chief clerk in his office. I
had no idea at the time as to what he had in mind. He thought
that I knew about the position, but I didn t.
He told me that the county offices were moving in the
near future to the new courthouse, which was under construc
tion at that time.
Mr. Warren s offices were then located at the old court
house at Fifth and Broadway. He wanted someone to run the
office clerical staff and to concentrate on that phase of his
office activities. He had had experience before with office
managers they were classified as chief clerks. They were
more interested in passing the bar and becoming attorneys, and
spent a lot of their time studying law, taking courses, et
cetera, and the clerical work suffered. Mr. Warren didn t
want that. He wanted me to concentrate on the office work and
had me promise that I wouldn t study law or become an attorney
while there. So, I never did study law, nor did I become an
attorney.
Feingold: How did you get to know Mr. Warren?
Severin: Through Masonic circles. We were both active in Masonic work
and Mr. Warren was master of his lodge a year or two before I
became master of my own lodge.
Feingold: Now, his lodge was the Sequoia Lodge?
Severin: Yes, Sequoia Number 3^9 >
so naturally, we got to know each
other rather well.
However, it was through a Mr. Russell Horstmann, who was
the Secretary of the Masonic Board of Relief that I got the
position with the DA. s office. The Board of Relief handled
Masonic employment problems, and if anyone needed a particular
type of employee, they would call the Bureau and ask for a man
for such-and-such a position.
Mr. Warren had contacted Mr. Horstmann and had said that
he wanted an office manager for his office. Mr. Horstmann and
I were close friends, and he called me and said he would like
to have me come down and see him, which I did. He told me,
"Mr. Warren would like to see you tomorrow morning"; he didn t
tell me what Mr. Warren wanted to see me about. It was on a
Saturday morning, late in May, 1935 that I had my appointment
with Mr. Warren, and thus learned that he would like to have me
work for him as chief Clerk.
I started on the job on July 1, 1935, and had charge of all
stenographers, typists, clerical staff, file clerk, watchmen,
janitors, office boy Just the nonprofessional staff, excluding,
of course, the inspectors.
FUNCTIONS OF THE CHIEF CLERK
Severin: At the time he hired me, Mr. Warren said, "I ll take care of
the politics, and you take care of the job." He had three
particular reasons why he wanted the job taken care of properly.
He inherited the office from his predecessors, all of whom were
very fine men and capable lawyers, but as Mr. Warren said,
"Lawyers are the world s worst bookkeepers and office men. They
don t seem to know how to maintain a file, or to keep proper
records; as soon as they are finished with a case, the files
are stacked in a corner and usually can t be found when they
want them."
The clerical department was particularly troubled at that
time with the filing system they had in use. It was so designed
that unless you had the person s last name and his first name,
or initials, you couldn t locate the file, which was coded by
numbers, not by the alphabet. The letters A, B, C, et cetera,
were represented by a certain number; thus the first name was
under one number, the middle name or letter was under a second
number, and the last name under a third number. So, unless
you knew his first and last names, you couldn t locate the file.
It was a very unsatisfactory system and Mr. Warren wanted it
changed.
Feingold: Had that system evolved over a long time back?
Severin: Yes, it was supposed to be a modern system in those days, but
they wanted it changed because they were having problems find
ing their files. So we converted it to use the case number
that the county clerk used in filing their criminal cases.
Every county clerk file, criminal, civil, et cetera, was given
a classification number, which we used in our new filing system;
we then made alphabetical index cards for all our case files,
which indicated the file where they could be found. We then
went back and changed the entire filing system to conform to
this method.
Severin: I recommended to Mr. Warren that he hire a Mrs. Mildred
Jones who had worked with me in the Key System and who was an
expert in filing methods. This he did, and she took charge of
the filing department and we worked up an excellent filing
system which is still in use thirty-five years later. This
revision was quite an undertaking.
I have this to say about Mr. Warren. He was one of the
few public officials who looked beyond his anticipated term
of office. He had to face re-election every four years, but
he knew what was needed. He wanted his entire office system
revised, revamped and modernized, and he wanted it done now.
As I told you the last time you were here, in 1935 the
government had what was known as the WPA Works Progress Admin
istration who were putting people to work who were not
especially qualified in any particular kind of work. In order
to put them to work they would assign a group of individuals
to a project or organization, so we had about thirty-five such
people to work on our filing system by the WPA, all kinds of
people, men and women, young and old, white, colored and handi
capped. We had to find places for them to work in the old
courthouse. We set them up in the hallways, in the lobbies,
spare rooms they even took over the office library, in order
to find room to accommodate them.
But over a period of years, at the old courthouse and
later at the new one, they did a magnificent job. They revised
all our files, going back into the late l8/0s; took all our
legal briefs and documents, segregated and classified them;
then rebound all our large volume of law books, many of which
were disintegrating from age. They typed several hundred
thousand index cards, a separate card for every person who ever
went through the office, every defendant, witness, complainant,
mental and alcoholic cases, special investigations. There were
thousands of index cards in the civil files, the individual
names of groups of people who would sue the county in civil
proceedings. We designed the cards with different colors to
represent the different types of activities involved. To the
eternal credit of the WPA program, they stayed with the under
taking under our supervision and the office is still reaping
the benefits of their efforts to this date.
Another of the principal objects in hiring me was that in
the near future the office would be moving into the new court
house then under construction. This was a tremendous job as
the offices had been in the old building to way back in the
l88(Ds, and the accumulation of old files, records, books, court
proceedings was horrible to contemplate. Records over the years
8
Severin: had just been thrown into attics, the basement and storage
rooms, and it was a tremendous chore to move such tonnage down
to a brand new building; however it had been designed to accom
modate such records.
In addition to taking care of the stenographers and the
clerical staff, the bookkeeping and the payrolls, I also had
charge of all the court evidence, the evidence to be used in
criminal cases. Over many past years a large volume had been
accumulated, and was being added to all the time. It was
stored in a large closet, or in a basement room, and often
when it was necessary to present a piece of evidence in court,
it could only be located with difficulty. Mr. Warren had
designed special evidence room facilities in the new court
house which were tamper-proof; no one but myself had access
to it, and organizing and moving it there was a big project.
Feingold: So that meant that you had to figure out what to do with the
remains of Bessie Ferguson?
Severin: Yes, she was one of the objects in the evidence room. We had
her in a sort of metal container with liquids and whatever
else was necessary to preserve her cut-up remains. She was
there all the time I was there. I think they finally got rid
of her not too long ago.
Feingold: Well, it s my understanding that she is back. They put her
with a storage company for a while but they found that the
fees were too high and they might as well just keep her down
there, so they put her back. They have a storage room in the
basement of the building, I think, in the new courthouse. Mr.
Charles Ryken was telling me about that.
Severin: She was there all the time I was there. You d be surprised
how people were apprehensive about something like that. They
just didn t want to go in that room at any time. The thought
of a dismembered human body being there was disturbing to them.
Feingold: Superstitions run pretty strong when you come to something
like that.
Severin: Yes, well, Bessie was one of my responsibilities all the time
I was there. I m surprised to hear that she is back; I hadn t
known that. I don t know what they are eventually going to do
with her. Her death took place before I got there in 1935;
that s thirty-seven years ago. Whoever s responsible is long
gone, no doubt.
Feingold: I know. I suspect that they don t know what to do with her
Feingold: either. There must be some reluctance about throwing away old
evidence .
Severin: Well, they could give her a decent burial what there is left
of her anyway. That s the least they could do, but they have
their reasons. Maybe they have some legal problems that I don t
understand.
In 1937, when we got down to the new courthouse, which was
a completely modern structure, Mr. Warren wanted the office run
efficiently and up-to-date, and to have the best of everything
in the way of office equipment and supplies. In this, Mr.
Warren backed me one hundred percent. No matter what we wanted
he d go to the board of supervisors and fight to get it. They
didn t want to spend the money, but he d insist on it. As a
result, we had the first electric typewriter in the County of
Alameda when they first came out, an IBM. We had the first
photostatic equipment, a copier. We were practically first in
everything that was new and modern in the way of equipment. We
even had a teletype system in our office whereby we could send
telegrams over Western Union and receive messages directly from
the Western Union. We ran it ourselves for many years, but it
was finally discontinued. Mr. Warren s office was acknowledged
to be modern and one of the best.
Feingold: That is really wonderful. You mentioned before that he used
tape recorders. How early was that?
Severin: I don t remember just when we started using them, but I am sure
we were one of the first to do so. Prior to the use of record
ers, and even to this day, most of our interviews and investiga
tions were recorded by legal stenographers who would take down
in shorthand everything that was said, and it was quite a burden
and ordeal to them. They eventually got to using tape recorders
in some instances, but we had trouble with such recordings, as
something would always go wrong at a critical time. Either the
tape would break or the microphone wouldn t record properly,
or there would be too much static in the equipment and you
couldn t understand it afterward. It was really a big headache
for a long time, so we didn t use it too often.
Feingold: Well, if it s any comfort, a lot of those problems still exist.
Severin: There was always something. Something important would come up
and just when you would get to the critical part, it would be
garbled and you couldn t understand a word that was said. It
used to be quite frustrating.
Feingold: I was talking to one of the inspectors in the office and he was
10
Feingold: describing a time when he was hidden up in the attic of a
building and he was taking a statement. There was a micro
phone down below and he had the tape recorder in front of him
and something went wrong and the tape just spewed out all over
the place.
Severin: I remember that. That was after Mr. Warren s time, but it was
quite a problem.
11
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY S OFFICE
Choosing the Staff
Feingold: There are some things I was wondering about in regard to how
Mr. Warren ran his office. I know from when we talked before
that he took on some people some times without pay and I won
dered if you could tell me about that again.
Severin: Mr. Warren was, in my opinion, a sort of genius. He had the
faculty of picking the right people for his office staff, and
he usually picked them for specific purposes.
Feingold: What sort of purposes?
Severin: Well, for attorneys he picked people who were just usually out
of law school, who had no legal training outside of what they
had obtained in school. He would take them and train them in
the ways that the office should be run. Most attorneys have
their own way of doing things and it is pretty hard to get them
to change to another system. By taking young law students and
just training them from the ground up, he developed people who
understood criminal activities and civil activities that way.
He would pick young people like that who usually came from
fairly well-to-do families. They had to because for the first
year or so they received no salaries at all and then after one
year, if they were satisfactory, they would get fifty dollars a
month. The next year they would get one hundred dollars a
month until such time as an opening developed in a higher
bracket. As I told you, that was Miss Cecil Mosbacher s experi
ence when she first came in. She worked for a whole year for
nothing and when the year was over, she wanted to take her
vacation but Mr. Warren said that she wasn t entitled to one
and that he wouldn t give it to her even though she wasn t
getting a salary.
12
Severin: Practically all the people he employed at that time were that
kind of person. He never hired any professional attorneys
that I can remember. There were several, of course, on the
staff before Mr. Warren took over, who had already been there
for quite some time. But when new ones came in, he would
develop them to his way of operating the office. He d take
law students from Boalt Hall and from Stanford.
It s to his credit to say that of the men he selected,
many of them would, after four or five years in the office, go
into private practice and several of them became district
attorneys in other counties. For instance, there was Kiernan
Hyland in Sonoma County, and also a district attorney in Trinity
County. Fred Reyland is county counsel in Merced County. Any
number of them are judges. One is a U.S. Commissioner. Larry
Dayton became United States district attorney after leaving the
office. In fact every one of them just went up the ladder. He
had the faculty of picking out capable men. Everyone was
investigated before they came in to make sure that their back
ground was right and proper.
Feingold: What did Mr. Warren look for in a person s background?
Severin: They made sure that his moral record and his ethics were correct,
that his family background was all right, that he had no arrest
record, and that he didn t have any bad habits or anything that
would be a discredit to the office. I ll say that in all the
time I was there and even up to this time there has never been
a whisper of a scandal about anyone in the office, and hundreds
of people have gone through the office.
Geingold: That s a very impressive record.
Severin: It certainly is. Mr. Warren developed a reputation for having
the finest district attorney s office not only in Alameda
County or in California, but in the United States. And I think
that it still has that reputation. It has been carried on ever
since. It is quite a credit to him.
Of course, he was a kind of a genius. He had a lot of
intuition. He was a very dynamic and crusading district attorney
and he created such a reputation for himself that when he finally
ran for attorney general, even though California was predominantly
Democratic and though he ran against a very prominent Democrat,
he was elected. And he s been going places ever since that time.
But those of us who knew Mr. Warren in the early days perceived
something about him that was different and, as I think I told
you, we all felt that some day he would be the president of the
United States. And he did come pretty close.
13
Feingold: I was going to say that he almoHt outdid your expootatlonn.
tfovnrln: But he waun t destined for that job. He was destined to stay
in legal work and he became Chief Justice which is as high as
anyone could aspire to.
Mr. Warren was very particular about who he hired. Prac
tically all the people who worked for him, like myself, had
known him for many years, but when you once went to work for
him, he demanded and commanded respect. And he got it. No one
ever called him by his first name. He was either "Mr. Warren"
or, as we always called him, "Chief." If anyone had a lapse
of memory and called him by his first name at any time, no
matter where, they were promptly admonished that it wasn t
proper. It would never be done privately, it would always be
done in a group so that they all got the message. So, at no
time was he ever addressed by his first name by anybody, even
by his most intimate friends. I mean by those that worked for
him. Outside of the office, people were at liberty to call him
what they pleased. So, he was always known to us as "the Chief"
and he atill is. He is still "the Chief" with us.
Feingold: I know that Helen MacGregor refers to him all the time as "the
Chief."
Severin: And we still call the district attorney, to this day, "Chief"
Ralph Hoyt and Frank Coakley, and the present district attorney,
Lowell Jensen they re all "Chief" to us.
Feingold: One of the things that I ve heard several people say is that
Mr. Warren tried to get a balance among his attorneys repre
senting different groups in the county and I wondered if that
was true.
Severin: He was very careful about that. He picked representatives of
all the groups, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, colored people,
all different groups. And the reason for that was that if any
particular religious person got in trouble, someone from that
religion would try them in court, so they couldn t say that
they were being persecuted by this group or by that group.
I remember when Frank Coakley was a young attorney, some
Catholic priest got in trouble. I think that he became drunk
and that he killed two people in an automobile accident. And,
of course, Mr. Warren was a Mason, so he took particular pains
to see that Mr. Coakley tried that case. Mr. Coakley was a
Catholic, so that the Catholics couldn t complain, and he con
victed him too. When a Mason got in trouble, some Masonic
attorney tried him. If a Jewish person got in trouble, then a
Severin: Jewish deputy tried him. Otherwise, he kept himself clear of
any prejudicial matters, no racism or anything like that at
any time. He was very careful about that. And he hired both
Republicans and Democrats. It made no difference. His value
of a person was not just his personality, but it was his integ
rity and his ability. That s what counted.
Feingold: Mrs. Heinrichs couldn t remember any Democrats in the office
except Mr. Coakley.
Severin: Mr. Coakley wasn t a Democrat. He never was, as far as I know.
Feingold: I think that he was at one time, when he first came into the
office.
Severin: He might have been.
Feingold: He had been, I think. There is a story that Mr. Warren himself
likes to tell that when Mr. Coakley first came into the office,
he was the county campaign manager for Al Smith and, of course,
Mr. Warren was very active in Republican politics. Mr. Coakley
came in to tell him this and he said, "Well, if you want me to
leave the office, if it is going to be an embarrassment to you,
I will." Or he said something to that effect. And Mr. Warren
said, "Oh no. In politics you go your way and I go my way."
But Mr. Coakley told me that very shortly after that election
he became a Republican.
Severin: Oh, is that right? I didn t know that. Well, when Mr. Warren
inherited the office, of course, his predecessors were mostly
Republicans. So, naturally, the office was practically filled
with Republicans, but as far as I was concerned, he never asked
me what my politics was. It had nothing to do with it. He just
told me to leave the politics to him. He d say, "I ll take
care of the politics and you take care of your job."
was without any qualification.
And that
Staff Relations
Severin: Mr. Warren had an office that was run as far as possible on a
definite schedule. He had, on Mondays, a meeting of the crim
inal deputies every morning at 8:30. On Tuesdays, he d meet
with the civil deputies. On Wednesdays, he d discuss problems
with the investigative groups, the inspectors. And, on Thurs
days and Fridays, he d have the whole staff, as a rule. And,
believe me, you d have to be there at 8:30. I mean, attorneys
15
Severin: axe sort of aristocratic people. You know, they keep their
own hours. But not in Mr. Warren s office. If you weren t
there at 8:30 that morning, you heard about it. So, they
got there at 8:30. As a matter of fact, they often came quite
a bit earlier. And, so, they were all there at one time.
When they d have a job to do, they did their job. Some
of them would take private practice on the side but most of
them didn t so they had to devote themselves to their respec
tive assignments and they had to be on the ball. So, through
his genius, his administrative ability and his integrity, Mr.
Warren built that office up to the stature it now has. And
I am really proud to have been a part of it. In fact, I m
greatly honored to have become a part of the organization.
Feingold: Yes, that was quite an honor.
Severin: It certainly was. I didn t realize it at the time, but when I
first went down there, he told me, "Now, when you work here,
you re dedicating yourself to public service. You are going
to have to sacrifice a lot of your social life and your family
life and your leisure life. All of that is going to have to
take second place. If there is any leisure time left over,
you can enjoy it." And that is just about the way it worked
out. The office came first. We understood and we accepted it
that way. There were times when we would be away from home
several days, maybe a week at a time or even longer. And if
we had any leisure time, that was sort of a bonus. We accepted
that and it was necessary and we realized it.
Mr. Warren was that way himself. He was always available.
He has the faculty of remembering people s names, always their
first name. Even to this day, he ll call people by their first
names. If you happened to drop by his office and he d be in
there, he d say, "Come on in, Clarence, come on in,"
even if
you had no thought of going in there.
He knew exactly what everybody in his office was doing all
the time, because when he met with the civil and criminal
deputies, and the investigators, he d ask them what their
problems were, what they didn t like, what was wrong with the
office, what were they doing. If a civil deputy didn t like
what the investigators were doing, he straightened it out with
the investigators. If the investigators didn t like the way
the attorneys were preparing their cases, he would straighten
that out also. He knew exactly all the time what everyone was
doing. .
16
Severin: Of course, the office wasn t too large in those days. I
think that we had a total of about sixty or sixty- five on the
staff. But even so, that was quite an accomplishment. He
knew exactly what was going on, all the time.
Feingold: It sounds like he ran a tight ship.
Severin: He ran a tight ship and we knew it. As I told you before, if
he knew anything that you did that was improper or wrong, he
didn t call you into his office and talk to you with the door
shut. He waited until your group met and then he d bring it
up. You heard about it there. And you watched your step to
see that it didn t happen again. But, then, after he once got
through with what he had to say, he would drop it. That was
the end of it. And that, in my mind, is the mark of a genius.
Office Rules
Feingold: Mrs. Heinrichs mentioned that one of the rules she remembered
was that no one in the office could accept any kind of a prize.
Severin: Oh yes. I meant to tell you. I thought about that too. In an
office like that, you deal with an awful lot of people who come
around and ask questions, and you meet witnesses. Particularly
around Christmas time, they would send in gifts a tie or a shirt
or flowers or candy or something like that. Any time that ever
happened, two men would have to take it back to the person who
sent it in. Not one man, not the man who received it, but two
other men brought it back and said, "We re sorry. He can t take
it." We were never allowed to take anything, not even one
piece of candy, or a free meal or anything else.
Feingold: Someone couldn t even take you out for dinner?
Severin: No, we couldn t do anything like that. And I know that many a
time we d take a box of candy back to somebody who had sent it
in good faith and appreciation. They were really hurt when we
did that, but that was one of the rules. No one was obligated
to anybody else, and the word got around that this office can t
be bought. That was one of our strictest rules. That s an
other indication, then, of a public office attitude that you
don t see nowadays.
Feingold: That s very impressive because that certainly is a practice in
any public office like that.
Severin: It is. A lot of times, you receive gifts and you say, "I don t
17
Sovcvlu: want to lake It buc k beeaune I think It will hurt their feel
ings." But not in that office. Everything went back right
now, as soon as it came in. If they were still there, when
they brought it in, they took it away with them. If it was
sent in, it was brought back no matter where it was. That s
the type of office he ran. Everything was above board.
Private Practice and Outside Work
Feingold: One of the other things that Mrs. Heinrichs mentioned is that
the secretaries, if they did have any time left over, did
several different kinds of outside work, for some of the depu
ties that had outside private practices, work for the Masonic
groups and also work for the Republican party and for the
campaigns. I wondered if you could explain how they got paid
for that, if they got paid.
Severin: Yes. Now, some of our attorneys had private practice and when
they had a private case and when they had the spare time,
they d call in a stenographer to make up their legal documents,
wherever they were. The secretary would keep track of the
time, would keep a memorandum of it, and a memo of such time
would come in to me every month and I d bill the attorney for
the amount of time that the stenographer had put in on it plus
the cost of the paper and so forth. They were billed for that
service and the fees came back to reimburse the county.
I d forgotten about that. That was quite a chore. Some
of them had quite extensive practices, particularly one of our
deputies, Nathan Harry Miller, a little Jewish gentleman. He
had a lot of outside private practice and so did some of our
other deputies. But they knew that such work took second place
in Mr. Warren s office. There was no personal work ever done
that anyone got personal benefit of.
Feingold: Was that also true of the Masonic work and the Republican party
work?
Severin: Yes. That was mostly all Mr. Warren s work though. I was
active, too, in Masonic work but it was done outside of regular
office hours.
Feingold: I was wondering because I know that every couple of years, at
least, there were big campaigns, and I wondered if the office
staff helped on any of those campaigns.
18
Severin: Yes, they helped. They would help for several reasons. Their
jobs depended on it, for one thing. If the district attorney
wasn t re-elected and a new DA. came in they would be replaced
by the new BA s appointees.
You see, the district attorney s office was unique in
Alameda County and in political circles. It was the only
office that didn t have civil service and everyone was hired
at the pleasure of the district attorney. He could hire whom
he pleased and he could let them go whenever he wanted to. The
result was that he could pick the men he wanted to staff his
office. That was because a lot of our work was secret and con
fidential, and included investigating public offices and per
sonnel.
In fact, I think you know that Mr. Warren sent the sheriff
of Alameda County to jail, several mayors to jail, city council-
men to jail, all of whom were prominent people in the community.
And those you are investigating, you can t afford to have that
leak out. You have to have people you can trust. And that s
the type of people Mr. Warren hired people that he could trust.
All the work of the staff on political campaigns was done
after regular office hours, on Saturdays or Sundays or on holi
days or at night, never in the office, usually at home or at
some campaign headquarters. That was quite a chore too.
Feingold: Was the office staff expected to participate in the campaigns?
Severin: No, they weren t required to, but they did. They weren t
expected to. They never had to make any financial contribu
tions, just to contribute your time. And if they didn t have
time to do it, their wives did it, their sons or daughters or
their relatives. That was principally how it was taken care of.
Feingold: I can see that people would want to do it.
Severin: They couldn t do it in the office during working hours because
political opponents would make a big issue out of it. Naturally,
they would. It just couldn t ever be done and it never was
done. Mr. Warren could do it because he was running for office.
He could go out and make talks and things like that, but none
of the rest of us could. It was as he told me: "I ll take
care of the politics and you take care of the job."
Feingold: Speaking of politics, one thing I ve always wondered about and
you might be able to answer because you ve been very active
in Masonic circles, is what role the Masons played in Warren s
political career.
19
Severin: Well, I ll say, judging from my experience, that those who
knew him supported him one hundred percent. They recognized
him for the man that he was and, naturally, being that type
of man, no matter what his fraternal or religious background
may be, he obviously was the man for the office. And they
supported him. Of course, there were a lot of Democratic
Masons as well as Republican Masons that probably supported
their respective party out of loyalty to the party, but by and
large, I d say that they, even on that score, backed the man
rather than the party, which is the way that it should be.
Undercover Operators
Feingold: One of the other things that we were talking about last time
were undercover operators in the office. Were they part of
the regular staff or were they hired for particular jobs?
Severin: Undercover operators as such were never members of the staff.
They were always people on the outside who were interested in
doing that kind of work. Sometimes they were called informers
and sometimes they were called operators, but they were never
members of the staff and they were not on the regular payroll.
They were paid separately out of what was called an investiga
tive fund. They would be paid through that particular fund
and. that fund, of course, was audited by the County of Alameda.
Receipts were obtained for services rendered but the names of
the people were never revealed. We d send in the reports with
out ever naming the people. If word ever got out that so-and-
so was an operator or an undercover man or an informer, they
were through. They were dead. So, we just put them on and Mr.
Warren, who was always informed of such activities, would
approve it.
We d pay them in cash, away from the courthouse, never in
the office. They were told never to come into the office and
they never did. Their assignments were always handled on the
outside. We d meet them in some out-of-the-way place and get
their reports and pay them their money and give them their
instructions. There was a lot of that going on then and still
is now.
Feingold: What sort of work would they do? Were they placed in particu
lar organizations or were they sort of free-floating or how
did they work?
Severin: Well, they were people who belonged to certain groups like
20
Severin: subversive groups or who hung out at bars; people who were
active in narcotics; people who were associated with what we
called "suede shoe"
operations, also who were involved in
frauds and embezzlements. Our operators were people who had
access to those kind of groups. In fact, I had one lady who
worked particularly on abortion set-ups. She d be the victim
on many occasions. She d make the contacts and set the thing
up for us. Then, we d go in and knock them over.
Some of them were very fine people. Some were, you might
say, just the bums on the street. But their information was
very helpful because they could mix with such other people
whereas we couldn t.
Feingold: Right. One thing I was wondering is especially the type who you
say were the bums on street if you could trust the information
they gave you or if you wouldn t worry that they would give you
information just so that they could get money.
Severin: We always checked them out beforehand. We never went on their
word alone. You couldn t. After they had been in this type
of operation for a long time we got to rely on them and they
came to be what you d call a substantial informer or a well-
known informer, then you could have confidence in their reports.
But, until that time, we always checked out everything told us.
All we wanted to know was what was going on around the county.
We couldn t use them to develop a case for us because they may
have to testify in court and we couldn t allow them to do that.
But they would give us information we needed and then we would
use our own resources, our own efforts, to develop a criminal
case if decided upon.
If you know what s going on, criminally, you can usually
keep it under observation. So, operators always were very
important, just to watch what such people do, to follow them,
to see where they go. One of the most important ways of obtain
ing evidence is through surveillance. If somebody tips you off
that somebody in a certain house is fencing stolen goods, and
you watch it to see who comes and who goes and see what happens
there and the way they operate, that s how you start to develop
a case. Somebody has to get the information for you, other
wise you don t know what s going on. It s helpful when an
informer either phones or calls in and tells you that something
suspicious is going on. That leads to a possible criminal
activity. That s what you use informers for, to check and
find out whether their information is true or not, to check out
the license numbers and things of that sort, to follow them
around.
21
The Shipboard Murder Gase
Feingold: I m particularly interested in the shipboard murder case and
I was wondering if operatives were used in that case.
Severin: Well, I m not too familiar with the details of that case be
cause that happened just after I started to work. I hadn t been
there more than a month or so when the case broke, and of course,
everything broke loose then. So, that was my first baptism into
a major criminal case, at that particular time. But actually,
I was a clerk at the time. I wasn t an investigator. I d hear
what was going on, but I wouldn t know the intricacies of its
development .
Feingold: Well, I was wondering, since you handled the payroll, if you
had been aware of where the money in the investigator fund was
going at that time?
Severin: No, I just got the reports from the investigators, or a request:
make out a check or an order for so-and-so, or requests for
the assignment of stenographers for statements and interviews.
Feingold: I see. So, you never really knew the identity at that time of
any of the operators.
Severin: No. I did after the case got going because during that case,
they took some of the principals and put them all over the
state, hiding them out so that they couldn t be found.
Feingold: Now, who were these that they were hiding out?
Severin: That case involved six or more defendants and it got to be
pretty much of a labor dispute. The people who were involved
as material witnesses, had their whereabouts been known, would
have been disposed of too. At that time we didn t want the
opposition to get in touch with them. In those days, important
witnesses were hidden out so that they couldn t be located.
They never stayed anywhere long, here a few days and then some
where else a few days, back and forth until the case came to
trial. That s what the inspectors did. They spent a great
deal of time moving around all over with these particular
people.
One of those defendants, to this day, has never been found.
They still have a whole whooping file on him. Sakovitz is his
name, Ben Sakovitz.
Feingold: Ben Sakovitz, yes. Mr. Ryken was telling me that the FBI calls
22
Feingold: in every year and says, "We still have Sakovitz on the wanted
list."
Severin: Ben Sakovitz, yes. They never found him.
Feingold: Some of the names I ve come across in the shipboard murder case
I was wondering if they were the people who had been hidden
out. Let s see Albert Murphy. Does that name ring a bell?
Was he one of the people they were protecting?
Severin: I don t want to misinform you or make any statements that
aren t true because I really don t know. I mean, I don t
recall. I could refresh my memory if I looked at the records,
but I don t recall at this moment the names of any of those
particular people. As I say, I was new in the office at that
time, and this was all a mystery to me. It was something I had
never had any experience with before. I remember the names,
but just exactly where they fit into the picture, I don t
recall. That was thirty-seven years ago.
Feingold: Yes, that s a long time. One of the things that Mrs. Heinrichs
mentioned was being taken to the Piedmont jail during the in
vestigation of that case to copy down in shorthand the conver
sation of two people who were in a Jail cell there. The con
versation was coming over some kind of microphone system.
She thought that you had been there also. Do you remember
that?
Severin: No, I don t think I recall that. I remember being up in the
jail, but I don t remember what case it was. The only case I
remember was one that involved a minister here in town who got
in trouble and the two defendants were put in the Piedmont
jail. But I m not sure that was the case that Beverly was
referring to.
Feingold: She was referring specifically to the shipboard murder case.
Severin: No, I don t recall that.
Feingold: It was Ernest Ramsay and Albert Murphy who were in a cell
together.
Severin: Ramsay yes, I remember Ramsay was a defendant. And Murphy
probably was too. I don t recall that.
Feingold: Frank Conner was one of the defendants. He was arrested in
Seattle and when he was brought back from Seattle, he was
taken to the Whitecotton Hotel in Berkeley and questioned
there by a number of the inspectors from the office and I
23
Feingold: was wondering if this was common practice at the time to use
hotel rooms rather than the jail, or wherever, for questioning?
Severin: Oh, yes. We questioned defendants or witnesses wherever it was
convenient. We questioned them at the place where they were
arrested or any place where we found them. Sometimes in the
office itself, any place. There was no particular technique as
to that practice. We questioned them anywhere, any time, any
place, usually right after they were arrested, wherever that
may be.
We took what we call a statement from them right then.
We committed them to a story, in other words. Maybe it wasn t
the true story, but at least we had them tied down to what they
said was the case, and then they had a hard time changing it.
That was a common practice, get them right away and ask them
what happened, what they did. They d make up something to go
along, to excuse themselves. Nine times out of ten it wasn t
the true story, and later on they couldn t change what they
had said for the record. They had any number of reasons for
so doing. But that practice was one of the first principles
of good criminal investigative techniques, in that we d take a
statement right away. You can t do that now any more. You now
have to warn them to be careful what they say ahead of time.
In those days, we didn t have to. We just put it right up to
them at the time and we d get all sorts of weird stories.
Feingold: I can imagine. Mrs. Heinrichs also mentioned that during that
shipboard murder case there was a lot of tension in the commun
ity because it was such a big case and involved the labor unions.
She remembered that there were sandbags around the courthouse.
Severin: Yes, well, they picketed the courthouse. They marched around,
four or five abreast, over the whole square block, for days on
end. As a matter of fact, it was the labor unions who did that,
because the defendants were all labor leaders or labor men.
Hundreds of them just marched around continuously, not in a
single line, but four abreast. I remember that distinctly, try
ing to get through that line. They d shove and push you around.
Feingold: Did the jury have to come through that line also?
Severin: Well, that was a little different. The jury was always protected
by deputy sheriffs who would open a path for them. So, there
was no problem there. But for us employees, or anybody else,
had no chance. You could get through, but it was rather rough.
In fact, sometimes we wouldn t even leave the courthouse. We d
just stay there.
Feingold: I m sure that the picketers didn t have very kind words for
you either.
Severin: Oh, boy. They were insulting!
Feingold: Was it during this time that Chester Flint drove Mr. Warren s
children to school? I know you mentioned that he did that at
some time.
Severin: You see, Mr. Flint was there long before I came, so I don t
know just when he started doing that. I imagine that when I
first came, Mr. Warren didn t have many children. I think
that he only had two. The others came later. So, I don t know
just when Mr. Flint started that practice. But they needed
protection because Mr. Warren was a crusading district attorney
and he had a lot of enemies.
Feingold: There was another story that I wanted to check out. I managed
to find Nathan Harry Miller s widow who is now living in Ross-
moor. She s remarried, and she seemed to remember of course,
she wasn t sure; she was just a housewife at the time, busy
raising children but she thought that she remembered that
there had been bombs planted in the motors of cars, or that
there had been threats of planting bombs in the cars of the
deputy district attorneys, or something like that.
Severin: That could be. I don t particularly recall that. But it is
quite a frequent form of intimidation. It s quite a common
practice in criminal investigations. You d be threatened if
you did this or if you didn t do that. But it very seldom
happened. It would work most effectively on witnesses. They
would be frightened and we had a hard time reassuring them that
it wouldn t happen. It had a lot of adverse effect on our
witnesses.
Feingold: I can imagine it would if you re not ued to it.
Severin: There were telephone calls at night, letters and contacts on
the street and things of that sort. It was quite a devastating
experience to a witness. That s why to this day people don t
want to be involved by seeing what happens on the street because
they realize that they will be called upon to testify, and they
don t want to be involved.
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
The Methias Warren Murder Case
Yes. Do you remember any other cases that were during Mr.
Warren s time?
Of course, one of the biggest ones was when his father was
murdered in Bakersfield. You heard about that, didn t you?
We ve heard some, yes. Could you tell us your part of the story?
Well, I was still in the clerical department at that time and I
think that you can get the best information, complete in every
detail, from Oscar Jahnsen or from Lloyd Jester. Oscar Jahnsen
handled the case.
We were at a Masonic breakfast that morning. It was on a
Sunday morning that the word came through. So, all of us took
off from the breakfast at the Claremont Hotel and went down to
the office. Two of our inspectors drove stenographers Hilda
Honett and Doris Bristol down to Bakersfield by car. The way
down was cleared for them by, and at each county line they were
met by, deputy sheriffs who escorted them through each particular
county. Oscar Jahnsen and another group chartered a plane and
flew down to Bakersfield. You won t believe this, but the car
with the two stenographers got down there just a half an hour
after the plane arrived.
So, when the plane had landed, and they were on their way
to the city hall in Bakersfield they got the word that the
district attorney s car had also arrived. I ll never forget
Hilda Honett s story of that ride bouncing around in that car,
back and forth, and going well over the speed limit all the way
down. That was quite a case. They never did find the murderer
of Mr. Warren s father. But that s a case in itself and I think
that Oscar Jahnsen could help you there. He handled it entirely,
completely. I wouldn t try to add anything to it because no one
beats Oscar on story telling.
We ve had very delightful interviews with Mr. Jahnsen.
You can t beat Oscar. He s a character in himself.
Yes, he is. We ve also gotten part of that story from Bob
Powers, who was the police chief at Bakersfield at the time.
Yes, I remember the name. Oscar can tell you every detail. He
engineered the whole thing. He sent the car down and hired the
plane and took charge of the investigation. So, he knows every
26
Severin: detail about it. If you want that story, he s the one to give
it to you. What I heard is Just hearsay, but he was there.
He lived through it.
Chester Flint and the Subversive Files
Feingold: You were telling me a bit last time speaking of inspectors
about Chester Flint and his files on subversives. Could you
tell me a little bit about that?
Severin: Well, that was very sensitive and secretive details known only
by Mr. Flint. He developed a complete file of all criminal
characters, racketeers, and subversive activities going on in
the area, principally in Alameda County, but also throughout
the entire area. Mr. Flint was a specialist in such activities
and he knew everyone involved in them and he maintained volumin
ous files of great value, but I imagine that to this day he is
very reluctant to talk about it. Have you talked to Mr. Flint?
Feingold: No, I haven t. He s up in Trinity County, and we don t get up
that way very often.
Severin: Well, even if you did, I don t think that he would ever talk
to you about it. He never wanted any of that information to
get out. It was pretty hot stuff in those days.
Feingold: I can imagine. Well, did he have trouble then with groups like
the La Follette Committee?
Severin: He had a lot of experience with the La Follette Committee. They
were quite a handicap and a problem to law enforcement agencies.
They caused him a lot of problems.
Feingold: What sort of problems?
Severin: Well, I wouldn t know how to detail it. I say once again, his
duties are only my impression and may not be right. I wouldn t
want to tell you about it because maybe I am entirely wrong.
I just know that he had a lot of trouble with that La Follette
Committee, but just what the trouble was, I don t know because
Mr. Flint was very close-mouthed. He wouldn t take anyone into
his confidence, nobody. Even if you saw him today, he probably
wouldn t tell you much, if anything.
But you should meet him. He s a wonderful person, one of
the finest you d ever want to meet. He was the kind of person
27
Severin: who, if he made an arrest, would say, "I m sorry, old man, to
have to do this. It hurts me to do it." And he meant It, too.
They d become his friends. When they d get out, they d turn
informers and would be important sources of information to him.
He treated them so graciously and so humanly, they never forgot
him. He was sort of a god in his own right. I know that people
would come and would pass on information to him, simply because
of the way that he handled people. That s why I think that you
should know him. He s a wonderful person.
Feingold: I d like to meet him.
Severin: He is a wonderful fellow. Can t you take time off to go over
there? It s nice country up there.
Feingold. I d love to.
Severin: It s beautiful country up there. You should do that. That s
a part of your job.
Feingold: I know. I m sure that the weather is nice there, too.
Severin: Yes, it s hot up there. One of my friends just came back from
that area and he said that it was real hot up there this week
end. This time of the year, it really is. But you should meet
Mr. Flint. You could never meet a finer person than Chet Flint.
Everybody loves Chet Flint. I don t think that he has an enemy
in the world. He s very gracious, soft-spoken, kindly. There
isn t anything that he wouldn t do for you. Thoroughly reliable,
conscientious; he s got everything.
Feingold: Well, it sounds like he fit right in that office, with those
characteristics .
Severin: Yes, definitely. So, if I were you, I d certainly try to pro
mote a trip up there and see him or find out if he ever comes
down this way. I don t think that he would talk about that
subversive file of his. That was very hush-hush.
Feingold: Mr. Olney is one of the advisors for our project and he visits
Mr. Flint every once in a while and we hope that perhaps some
time he ll be able to take a tape recorder up and do an inter
view for us.
28
Crime Commissions
Severin: I worked with Mr. Olney too. I told you that, didn t I?
Feingold: No.
Severin: Yes, I worked for him twice when I was in the district attorney s
office. He headed the crime commission for the state of Cali
fornia, he and Alan Lindsay, who is now superior court judge,
Beverly and myself, Helen Jones and a few others [worked with
them] . They assigned me to work with him for a couple of months
on the two crime commissions he handled. That was statewide,
not necessarily Alameda County alone, but for the state of
California. So, I m very fond of Warren Olney. He s a very
fine gentleman and is very capable.
Feingold: Tell me a bit about the work that you did on the crime commis
sion.
Severin: Well, just investigating various criminal activities throughout
the state of California. Remember, I was doing investigative
work for them. They d send me out to interview this person or
to interview that person or to take a statement from this one
or obtain records. It was mostly getting records because that
was my specialty, photostats and things of that sort, just
general investigative work.
Feingold: Was it around any particular problem or question?
Severin: I don t recall now just what phase of the activity he was engaged
in at that time exactly. I was only there for about a month.
I took some time off of my vacation. You were allowed three weeks
vacation in those days, so I worked for them during my vacation
and probably a week over that. So, I didn t get into it too
deeply. He headed two of those commissions. I worked with him
both times. Of course, the commissions had been activated long
before I worked for them and long after I left. He was one of
our deputy DA s a long time. Mr. Lindsay could tell you about
that. Have you talked to Judge Lindsay yet?
Feingold: No.
Severin: Why don t you talk to him?
Feingold: Now, was he in the office also or was he just on the crime
commission?
Severin: No, he was in the office. He was one of our deputies, Alan
Severin: Lindsay. He is a judge now, a superior court judge.
Feingold: Was he there when Warren was there?
Comments on Staff Members
Severin: I think so. But there s one person you must talk to. That s
Cecil Mosbacher.
Feingold: Do you speak to her much?
Severin: Well, I so seldom get down to the courthouse. When I do, though,
she s in court. She s one of those conscientious persons. As
soon as she gets off the bench, she goes to her room and shuts
the door to study evidence and to get ready for tomorrow and
you hate to intrude upon her. So, we very seldom ever talk.
You feel like you re taking time away from her. I know how
she is, because I worked with Cecil for years and years. Boy,
she worked twenty-four hours a day, going full blast. So, when
she concentrates on a case, it s a shame to interrupt her. But,
you mean to say that you haven t talked to Cecil Mosbacher?
Feingold: No, because I ve had the same problem. Every time I call her,
she is either in court, or she is in the midst of preparing
for a case and we haven t been able to find the time.
Severin: Well, you ve got to talk to her. You haven t got this story
worked up properly without talking to Cecil Mosbacher. She
could tell you more about Mr. Warren and his family, about how
she got hired, what she had to put up with. She s a wonderful
person. She was a far better investigator than most of our
investigators were, although she was an attorney.
Feingold: How so?
Severin: I worked on lots of cases with her. She was terrific. She
would run you ragged. Now that s a must. You have to talk to
Cecil Mosbacher. And talk to Alan Lindsay, particularly in
regards to the crime commission. You ve talked to Mr. Jester
too, haven t you?
Feingold: Yes.
Severin: He was there long before I was. Howard Tupper is down south
now. I guess you haven t had a chance to talk to him.
30
Feingold: No, I haven t.
Severin: Of the inspectors, there s Oscar Jahnsen and Chet Flint, Lloyd
Jester and Howard Tupper. They are the only ones left from
the original group. Just those four of them. I ll bet that
they ve got a wealth of background. When Mr. Warren came in,
he formed the inspectors division. They didn t have such a
division before that. And these were the first ones he
picked Captain Helms and Oscar Jahnsen. They formed the
department. They can tell you a tremendous amount about what
went on when Mr. Warren became district attorney. And that s
the important part of his career. There was no doubt in my
mind that he was a man of destiny. He had to be. You could
see it.
Feingold: You could, even when you worked for him?
Severin: Oh, yes. You could see it. You could tell. And it certainly
turned out that way.
Feingold: When did you become aware that he was going to run for attorney
general?
Severin: The attorney general before Mr. Warren took over that office
was a man by the name of Mr. Webb. He d been attorney general
for about twenty-eight years and Mr. Warren always said, "I ll
never run against Mr. Webb." He was a close friend of Mr.
Warren s, so when Mr. Webb announced his retirement at the
ene of his last term, Mr. Warren decided that he would go after
the job, only because Mr. Webb was relinquishing it. And that s
how he got into it.
He had already made a reputation for himself in Alameda
County and his great abilities were limited to a small county,
whereas his characteristics, of course, covered the whole state.
He belonged there . Just as he made his way into the governor s
office. I mean, his horizons were expanding all the time. He
could never confine his talents to a little county like Alameda.
So, when Mr. Webb decided to retire, he decided that he would
run for the job. And he did. He carried California despite
the Democratic majority and he got the endorsement of the Demo
cratic party, too. In fact, he got endorsed by both parties.
That was incredible in those days.
Feingold: He frequently cross-filed when he was running.
Severin: Yes, he did.
Feingold: Well, then, when he went on to become attorney general, did you
31
Feingold: stay on in the district attorney s office?
Severin: Oh, yes. I stayed right on.
Feingold: As chief clerk?
Severin: Yes, I stayed on as chief clerk until the war broke out and
then I went into the service. When I came back, they had
another man in my position. So, they asked me if I wanted to
be an investigator, which I wanted to do, naturally. So, I
grabbed the chance and said, "Why, sure. I m tired of office
work and I m tired of bookeeping and I m tired of rustling
papers around." So, I took the job as an investigator and I m
glad that I did.
Feingold: And who was DA at this point?
Severin: Ralph Hoyt, a very fine person, a wonderful person.
Feingold: How did he compare as a district attorney to Earl Warren?
Severin: A man of integrity, just about the same. He didn t have the
outgoing personality that Mr. Warren had, but he was a solid
citizen, conscientious, dedicated, devoted. Everyone Mr.
Warren, Mr. Hoyt, Mr. Coakley all come from the same stock,
just terrific people. You can t find people like them now-
aways. Mr. Jensen will, I m confident, follow in their foot
steps too.
Feingold: That office has had a very fine record of succession.
Severin: Yes, right straight through.
Feingold: So, did you stay on then as an inspector through Mr. Hoyt s
term?
Severin: Yes, and then Mr. Coakley came in. He kept me on and made me
a lieutenant shortly after he became district attorney. And
then when Mr. Tupper retired, they made me captain of inspectors.
And there s another great guy. You ve talked to him, haven t
you?
Feingold: Mr. Coakley? Yes.
Severin: He s a terrific guy, dynamic. He s terrific. One of the best
prosecutors in the USA. Mr. Warren wasn t much of a prosecutor.
He very seldom prosecuted a case. The only case that he tried
that I remember was the ship murder case. The other cases were
tried by deputies he assigned to them. Mr. Coakley tried all
32
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
of the major cases before he got to be district attorney. Then
he tried the Burton Abbott case himself.
Was that the kidnap-murder case?
Yes. He tried that himself. Boy, what a job he did. What a
job he did! He was just a terrific guy he still is. I hated
to see him leave as district attorney because when they made
Mr. Coakley, they threw the mold away. He s just a terrific
guy. He s wonderful.
He s still down there a lot, I think,
emeritus .
He s district attorney
Yes, he s a great guy, a great character. I m sorry that we
lost Mr. Hoyt. He s another wonderful gentleman, a very fine
person, very fine. All officers of high caliber, above the
average by far, simply because they didn t have civil service.
The way it is now, if they have civil service, you could get
three people to choose from and none of the three may be worth
a darn. And you have to take one of the three. Now, then, if
you don t have civil service, you can go out and pick the best
man you can find. That s the way it should be. I d never want
to be under civil service. You just lose all your interest.
You re secure and you Just sort of let down and have nothing to
worry about. But when you didn t have civil service status you
had to do the job assigned to you and you were on the ball. It
makes a difference. And the department head gets the right
type of person needed on the job.
As you say, you can really choose them.
Yes, you can really choose them.
A Gambling Raid
Feingold: Do you remember any particular cases you worked on as an
inspector?
Severin: Yes, but that was long after Mr. Warren s time. You see, I was
chief clerk all the time that he was there. It wasn t until
after World War II when he was already governor that I got into
the investigative work.
So, it wasn t my job to investigate, although I went out
with the inspectors when Mr. Warren was district attorney. I
33
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
went out with them lots of times on their cases to assemble
the evidence, keep their records and take charge of the money
when money was seized as evidence, or whatever it happened to
be. I went out with them lots of times, thanks to Oscar
Jahnsen. Oscar pushed me into that. He was my best friend.
He took me along with him and Captain Helms wouldn t like it.
He thought that I was an office man and that I had no busi
ness being with a professional investigator, but Oscar took
me along any way. So, I owe a lot to Oscar Jahnsen.
He was your mentor in a way.
investigating.
He trained you in the ways of
Yes, he certainly did. We worked on lots of cases together.
I did no investigative work while Mr. Warren was there,
except on the sidelines. I d go out with them when it was the
night of the raids. We did a lot of raiding in those days.
What would you have been raiding? This was after Prohibition.
Gambling, mostly. They had a lot of gambling establishments
in Emeryville, big ones. The first one that I went out on
just after I d been there a short time was when the Alemo Club
in Emeryville was raided. I think that we arrested over three
hundred people in that one night. We took them all to jail too.
Where did you put them all?
Some to Berkeley, some to Oakland, some to Piedmont, some to
San Francisco. We took them all over. I ll never forget that
first time I went out. Oscar planned the thing. It [the
gambling place] was run by a Chinaman, Chen H ing. They took
me along because they wanted to get their records, the money
and all that. However, the captain [Helms] didn t want me to
go because I might get hurt. He didn t care for me particu
larly anyway. So, anyway, Oscar took me and he said, "Now,
listen. We may have to batter down the doors, but when you get
in there, you go right to the office and stay right at the
office. And after things are clear, I ll come out and then take
charge of the office and be sure all the evidence is in."
Well, when we got there, there was an outer door there,
another door there, and an inner door. We got in the outer
door all right, but when we got to the inner door, we couldn t
get in and the word got around inside they were being raided.
But they [the gamblers] bolted the inside door. So we had to
use what was called a battering ram to batter the door down.
All the time that was going on, why, confusion reigned. So,
Oscar climbed up on the roof and chopped a hole in the roof
Severin: to come down inside because they had trouble getting through
the door. Those doors are huge and heavy.
Here I was. I was standing there waiting for them to get
in. Lloyd Jester was down by the Southern Pacific railroad
tracks. There was a rear getaway entrance that nobody knew
about, and people were pouring out of it. So, Jester called
me, "Come on down here. We need help." So, I ran down where he
was and we rushed in. We walked all through that whole place
with men scurrying around carrying trays of money. I asked one
of them where the office was and he said, "Over there; over
there." [pointing]
I was in the office when Oscar came down through the roof.
He was surprised to see me and said, "How did you get here?"
I ll never forget that. Here I was already there when he arrived,
and me, a complete novice. To me, it was all Greek. I didn t
know what it was all about. That night, I had my picture taken
while I was collecting the evidence in the office and I ve still
got that newspaper clipping, counting the money out there inside
this Chen H ing s place.
Feingold: Oh, this was Chen H ing. I ve heard that name.
Severin: Chen H ing lived right next door to Oscar Jahnsen, on Vernon
Street in Oakland. Boy, a lot of sparks were flying around
that neighborhood. Yes, they both lived right next door to
each other.
Feingold: Was he arrested, Chen H ing?
Severin: Oh, yes. He was a wealthy man. But it didn t make much differ
ence. Gambling wasn t too serious a crime in those days. The
courts would just fine them, that s all they d do. They would
confiscate the money and fine them. It represented a lot of
money for the county, and they kept it all. That was my first
experience on an outside job.
Comments on Staff Members, Continued
Severin: There are several things you ought to do. You ve got to talk
to Mr. Lindsay. You ought to talk to Cecil Mosbacher and you
must talk, if you can, to Chet Flint. If you ever can, don t
miss that opportunity.
There are a lot of other people, too, who you could tali
35
Severin: to. There s Glenn Spencer, an attorney in town here, who Mr.
Warren hired as a law clerk at the new courthouse office. He
studied to pass the bar, passed the bar and then he quit the
office. And then, there s Mildred Jones, now living in Dan
ville, who was the file clerk I was telling you about. We
started to develop the new file system here, and completely
revised them. She can give you a tremendous amount of informa
tion about those early days when we moved from the old court
house. She had worked at the old courthouse and came up to
the new courthouse. She left the staff because she got mar
ried and had a child. She lives in Danville; her name is
Mildred Jones.
Feingold: And Glenn Spencer, you said?
Severin: Glenn Spencer, he s an attorney in town, in Oakland. He can
tell you a lot about his experiences in the office. Did you
ever talk to any of the old stenographers? To Hilda Honett and
Doris Bristol?
Feingold: No, the only one I ve spoken to is Beverly Heinrichs. I think
that I couldn t find some of them. I didn t know who they were.
No one I ve spoken to has kept up with them. Do you know
where they are?
Severin: No, I ve lost track of them too, but I can find out. Hilda
Honett would be a terrific one to talk to because she is the
one who had that wild ride to Bakersfield.
Feingold: If you could find that out, that would be very helpful to us.
Severin: She s a lovely person. You d like her too. Doris Bristol--!
don t know what happened to her, but she s around some place.
There s two more Rae Pollard, who was in charge of the stenog
raphers when I took over at the old courthouse. She lives in
San Leandro.And you certainly ought to talk to Florence Trombas.
She was in the stenographic pool at the old courthouse. She
was there long before I came. She knows everything about every
body. She ll talk an arm off of you. You d better take four
or five tapes when you go up to talk to her I Be sure and talk
to those two. They re here locally.
Feingold: Florence Trombas lives in San Leandro?
Severin: Yes, she belonged to an old family there. Rae Pollard also
lives in San Leandro. They re all in the phone book. If
you haven t got one, I ll get you their phone numbers. But
Florence Trombas and Rae Pollard are available. I don t know
about Hilda Honett, but I think that she s around. They can
36
Severin: tell you an awful lot about the early days in the office. You ll
hear the other side of it. You will hear about the investiga
tive work and the legal work.
Feingold: The behind-the-scenes work that nobody ever realizes.
Severin: Yes, they ll tell you who and what each individual staff member
was. They had to work for them, so they knew the person, just
like they were part of the family. You must talk to them,
particularly to Florence Trombas. Don t miss her. She s a
character. She s tiny like you are, but she d talk up to those
deputies and how she would bawl them out I In fact, we called
her the "Tiger." Her nickname was "Tiger Trombas." She
wouldn t hesitate to tell Mr. Warren off too.
Feingold: Well, that s right. She couldn t let them walk all over her.
Severin: She wouldn t, but she ll talk. They can tell you more about
Earl Warren because they were there before I was there and
they would handle a lot of his cases, a lot of his investiga
tions. And they could tell you a tremendous amount of details,
particularly the ship murder case. They were both there.
Florence Trombas, Rae Pollard and Hilda Honett were all in
there at the time of the ship murder case. Beverly was kind
of new at that time. She hacln t been there very long. Then
she left shortly after that. She finally came back later,
just before I left, and stayed a little while and then left
again.
Feingold: Yes, she s at the University now. That s how we found her, in
fact. She works for one of the central stenographic offices
and she had typed some of the manuscripts from our office and
I think that she mentioned to someone that she recognized a
lot of the names that she was typing because she had worked
in the district attorney s office.
Severin: Well, Beverly s knowledge is very tiny compared to what the
others can give you.
Feingold: Well, good. I ll get in touch with them.
Severin: Yes, Beverly s experience was very small because she wasn t
there very long at any time. These other people all retired
from their jobs and they were there for twenty, twenty-five,
thirty years. I think Florence was there for thirty-five or
thirty-seven years. So, you shouldn t miss her, of all people.
She s perfectly frank; she ll tell you what she thinks, good,
bad, or indifferent.
37
Feingold: Good, that s what we like.
Severin: She ll tell you Just exactly what she thinks. She won t try
to flower it up or to pull back the punches or to be diplomatic.
She ll tell you just right to your face what she thinks. Be
fore you go, I ll get you Florence Trombas address. We ll
look up Rae Pollard s address.
Feingold: I d appreciate that.
Severin: And Hilda Honett. I ll have to see where she is. I know that
she married late in life. She may not be here any more. I
haven t seen her for quite a while. There s a girl that could
tell you a lot too, a very nice person. I ll get you Mildred
Jones phone number. If you can t go out to see her, I m
pretty sure that she will come in and talk to you down here,
or any place.
Feingold: Danville, that s easy to get to. Yes, I ve spoken to several
of the attorneys and inspectors, but we hadn t spoken to anyone
in the clerical department before Mrs. Heinrichs and you.
Severin: You should do that because there you get the facts about the
individuals. These girls spent days and hours They may have
been gone for three or four days with a deputy, all over the
state, and under trying conditions, hard conditions. You must
talk to them.
Feingold: Oscar Jahnsen described I can t remember which of the stenog
raphers it was but, in one of the raids that they made on the
gambling ships in Los Angeles, one of the stenographers came
along with them and Mr. Jahnsen was so impressed that she was
taking shorthand notes the whole way out. He said that this
boat was bobbing up and down on the waves, and there she was,
unperturbed, taking shorthand notes.
Severin: There was another stenographer we had. I think she s still
around. Her name was Edna Bowles. There was a woman! She
could take your conversation as fast as you could talk. And
when you got through, you d think that it was printed. I
never saw anything like it! Edna Bowles work was beautiful!
When I take shorthand, I can t hardly read it afterward. It
looks like a mess. But her work was beautifully done. And
she d just sit there, unconcerned. Other stenographers would
say, "Slow down," "Go
quiet," or "What did you say?", but not
Mrs. Bowles. You d never know that she was doing anything.
Feingold: I think that Mrs. Heinrichs mentioned her beautiful shorthand.
38
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Feingold:
Severin:
Beautiful. It was Just like it was printed, beautiful.
Do you have any recollections of any of the other deputies that
you d want to mention?
Most of them, the ones that were really colorful, are all dead
now. Leonard Meltzer and Charlie Wehr. Charlie Wehr was one
who worked with Mr. Warren on the ship murder case. And then,
they re gone. But there s Cameron Fox. He s a U.S. commissioner
right now. And Lawrence Fletcher I mean, there s a list.
Have you got a list there? [interviewer hands him a list of
office personnel. ]
This isn t complete, by any means,
who were there when Warren was M.
These are mostly the deputies
[Refers to list.] Sam Berry is still alive. Maurice Bleuel is
still alive. Chester Caldecott is still alive. Dick Chamber
lain. Have you talked to Laurence Dayton?
No, I haven t talked to him.
You ought to talk to Laurence Dayton. He s right up here in
Montclair. After he left our office he became U.S. district
attorney for northern California. I took Mr. Dayton s place.
He was running the clerical staff and he became an attorney. I
took over the job.
Oh, he was the one who was studying law at night?
Yes, and I took his place when he moved up. Folger Emerson
he s still alive. Lawrence Fletcher.
Who was the office boy?
Albert Hederman.
That was Albert Hederman?
You ought to talk to Albert Hederman too. Haven t you talked
to Albert?
No, he s on my list I m about to.
You re terrible! You re terrible He s right down in the
office down there. He came right from the Oakland high school.
Mr. Warren took him right from school, and he s been there
ever since he graduated. That was way back in 1937 or 1938. In
fact, he was assistant district attorney, chief assistant
39
Severin: district attorney. Here s Lynn Gillard. Lynn Gillard is also
a United States district attorney. He s still here. Marc
Hardin is still here. Mr. Hunter have you talked to Mr. Hunter?
Feingold: Yes.
Severin: Kennedy Jackson. Bob McCreary--have you talked to Bob McCreary?
Feingold: No.
Severin: He s a wonderful fellow too. Jim Oakley just died. Agnes
Polsdorfer have you talked to her?
Feingold: No. I ve talked to her, but she didn t want to tape record.
Severin: Oh. Arthur Sherry have you talked to him?
Feingold: Oh, yes. He s right in my neck of the woods, at Boalt Hall.
Severin: Boy, you ve got a lot of work tp do. You could be busy for a
year or two if you talked to all these people. You ve got a
long list to talk to.
You have Cameron Wolfe down here. Doris [Bristol] and
Hilda Honett. You have the three names down there. You have
all the names that I told you about. I hadn t even seen your
list.
Geingold: One question that I wanted to ask you about Charlie Wehr in
connection with the shipboard murder case is I don t know if
you remember, but several years after the case itself, there
was a habeas corpus petition filed to get George Wallace out
of jail. One of the facts that was brought up then was an
alleged connection between Charlie Wehr and Julia Vickerson,
one of the jurors, and I wondered if you knew anything about
that.
Severin: No, that was pretty much hush-hush. I remember the incident.
It was in the papers quite extensively. If you look at the
papers from around that time, it will be all in the papers. But
she was supposed to have been one of his clients in private
practice. She wasn t supposed to be on the jury. But then, as
I say, I wouldn t even comment on that. But that did happen.
It did happen.
Feingold: From what you knew about Charlie Wehr, would you think that it
would be true?
Severin: Yes, yes. He was quite a wheeler and dealer, Mr. Wehr was,
Severin: quite a character in himself.
Feingold: Was he a ladies man?
Severin: Yes, quite so, but a very powerful, strong, dynamic type of
person, something like Mr. Warren, but he didn t have Mr.
Warren s finesse, his ability or his integrity. He didn t
have those qualities, but he was of the similar type, a dynamic,
hard-driving, sort of unscrupulous sort of a person. But very
able, a very able person. Quite a character Charlie was.
Feingold: There is a nickname I ve heard a couple of people use referring
to him it sounded pretty terrible "Old Bucket of Blood."
Severin: I haven t heard that, but it would apply all right.
Feingold: I think that that was referring more to his abilities as an
attorney in getting convictions, in that he d go for broke.
Severin: Yes. As I say, he s very aggressive, very dynamic. He d go
right to the limit. Very successful too.
Feingold: Do you have anything more that you want to add?
Severin: No, I don t think so.
Feingold: I ve exhausted all the questions I can think of. You ve given
us a great deal of information.
Severin: Well, you can get a lot more from the people who were in there
before I was.
Transcriber: Marilyn White
Final Typist: Beverly Heinrichs
INDEX - CLARENCE SEVERIN
Abbott , Burton, case, 32
Alberger, Ida Wiesel, 1-2
Alberger, William R. 3
Attorney General, California 30
Becker, Sheriff, case 18
Berry, Sam 38
Bluel, Maurice 38
Bowles, Edna 37-38
Bristol, Doris 25, 35
Caldecott, Chester 38
Campaign, 1938 30
Chamberlain, Richard 38
Chen H ing 33
Coakley, J. Frank 13, 31-32
Conner, Frank 22
Crime Commissions, California 28-29
Criminal procedures, questioning suspects 22-23
Dayton, Laurence 12, 38
District Attorney s Office, Alameda County
and politics 17-19
filing system 6, 7
gambling raids 33-3^
hiring policies 11 -lU
office equipment 9-10
office integrity 16-17
office of chief clerk k-7, 9-10
staff and staff relations lU-16, 29-32,
subversive files 26-27
undercover operators 19-20
Emerson, Folger 38
Ferguson, Bessie, case 8-9
Fletcher, Lawrence 38
Flint, Chester 2k, 26-27, 30,
Fox, Cameron 38
U2
Gambling raids 33-31*
Gillard, Lynn 39
Graft 18
Hardin, Marc 39
Hederman, Albert 38
Heinrichs, Beverly 16, 22-23, 35-36
Helms, Capt. George 30, 33
Honett, Hilda 25, 35-36
Horstmann, Russell 5
Hoyt, Ralph 13, 31-32
Hunter, Robert 39
Hyland, Kiernan 12
Jackson, Kennedy 39
Jackson, Koneta M. 3
Jahnsen, Oscar 25, 30, 33
Jensen, Lowell 13, 31
Jester, Lloyd 25, 29, 30
Jones, Mildred 7, 35
King, Ramsay, Conner case - see shipboard murder case
Labor protest 23-2U
La Follette Committee 26
Lindsay, Alan 28-29, 3^
MacGregor, Helen 13
Masons U-5, 13, 17, 25
Board of Relief 5
and politics 18-19
McCreary, Robert 39
Meltzer, Leonard 38
Miller, Nathan Harry 17,
Mosbacher, Cecil 11, 29,
Murphy, Albert M. 22
Oakley, James 39
Olney, Warren III 27-28
Pollard, Rae 35-36
Polsdorfer, Agnes 39
Powers, Robert 25
Ramsay, Ernest 22
Republican party 1?
Reyland, Fred 12
Ryken, Charles 8, 21
Sakovitz, Ben 21
Severin, Clarence
crime commissions 28-29
early work experience 3
education 2, 3
family 1, 2
functions of chief clerk 6-10
hired as chief clerk k
investigator 31
Severin, Frank Anton 1, 2
Severin, Koneta Jackson 3
Sherry, Arthur 39
Shipboard murder case 21-2U, 38-UO
Spencer, Glenn 35
Trombas, Florence 35-36
Tupper, Howard 29-31
Vickerson, Julia 39
Wallace, George 39
Warren, Earl k, passim
Warren, Methias, case 25-26
Webb, U. S. 30
Wehr, Charles 38-UO
Wolfe, Cameron 39
WPA ?
University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
Homer H. Spence
ATTORNEY, LEGISLATOR, AND JUDGE
An Interview Conducted by
Miriam Peingold
1972 by the Regents of The University of California
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TABLE OP CONTENTS Homer R. Spenoe: Attorney,
Legislator, and Judge
INTERVIEW HISTORY i
BACKGROUND 1
Comments on an Era 1
Family History 4
Education 6
Early Work Experience 9
World War I 12
THE STATE LEGISLATURE, 1921-1925 15
Getting into Politics 15
The Municipal Utility District Act 19
The State Bar Bill 2?
Tax Reform 30
Legal Reforms 32
LEGISLATIVE REAPPORTIONMENT, 1926 *$*
SUPERIOR COURT OP ALAMEDA COUNTY, 1927-1930 37
Yachting Bandits Case 38
The Miller Forgery Case 39
Impressions of District Attorney Earl Warren 4l
Criminal Procedure 4-2
Bail, Probation, and Parole ^3
The California Judicial Council ly?
DISTRICT COURT OP APPEAL, 1930-19^5 l\f)
Oakland Tribune Case 50
CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT, 1945-1960 53
APPENDIX I - Interview with Justice Spence Conducted
by Kenneth M. Johnson for the San Francisco
Bar Association 60
INDEX 75
INTERVIEW HISTORY
The Honorable Justice Homer R. Spenoe was interviewed
for the Earl Warren Project of the Regional Oral History Office
In order to record his reminiscences of his career in public
service as an attorney, legislator, and Judge, and to capture
his impressions of his life-long friend, Earl Warren.
Interviewer:
Conduct of the
Interview:
Editing:
Miriam Felngold
Two interviews were held with Justice Spence,
on January 5 and January 10, 1972. Both
sessions were conducted in the small office
he maintains in San Francisco s financial
district. The interviews each lasted about an
hour and a half, with a short break half way
through each session, and the first session
concluded over lunch at a nearby restaurant.
In the early stages of setting up the Earl
Warren Project, Justice Spence was called on
for his advice and assistance, and he helped
in obtaining funds for the Project. At the time
of the Interview, therefore, he was already aware
of the purposes and progress of the Project.
A written outline had been submitted to Justice
Spence before the interview, and he used this
as a base from which to reminisce about his
long career in public service. He had also
gathered together notes and memorabilia which
he used to refresh his excellent memory during
the interview.
Editing of the transcribed taped interview was
done by the interviewer. Minor rearrangements
of material were made to maintain continuity
of the discussion without Interrupting its
informal quality. Justice Spence very carefully
reviewed the edited text, correcting several
minor points, and adding a few written statements
to amplify or clarify his original comments.
11
Narrative
Account of
the Interview: Justice Spenoe s career spans the years "from
the horse and buggy days into the space age,"
and he begins the interview with a succinct
description of life In the early 1900* s.
Born in San Francisco and reared in the Bay Area,
Homer R. Spence received his law degree from
Stanford Law School in 1915. It was as a
struggling young attorney, he relates, that he
first met Earl Warren, then also in private
practice, at the Young Lawyers Club.
After describing his military service in World
War I, Justice Spence relates how he was
persuaded to run for the state legislature in
1920 as a progressive Republican. He comments
briefly on the state of California politics in
the 1920 s. In the three terms that Mr. Spenoe
served on the legislature he backed several
important bills, Including the East Bay Municipal
Utility District Act, the state bar act, and
measures reforming civil legal procedures, all
of which he discusses in detail during the inter
view. Justice Spence also describes his work
in 1926 in support of a legislative reapportion-
ment plan, a plan then supported by Earl Warren.
Shortly after leaving the legislature in 192?
Mr. Spence was appointed to the superior court
of Alameda County, where he had several
opportunities to observe District Attorney Earl
Warren in action. Justice Spenoe comments on
Warren s courtroom style and also on the standards
of criminal Justice of the day.
Only three years after being appointed to the
superior court, Judge Spence was appointed to
the California District Court of Appeal, where
he served for fifteen years. One of his more
interesting cases concerned the settlement of
the Dargie estate in which the Knowland family
gained controlling interest in the Oakland
Tribune.
In 19^5 Judge Spenoe was appointed to the
California Supreme Court, where he served until
ill
his retirement in I960. He notes that during
his entire career he "never had a claim of
disqualification made in court" against him.
Justice Spence concludes his interview by
commenting that today s turmoil and uprisings
are not new and seem "to be repetitive of time
gone by."
Appended to the interview is an interview with
Justice Spence conducted by Kenneth Johnson of
the San Francisco Bar Association as part of
their study of the history of the San Francisco
Bar.
Miriam Feingoldt
Interviewer
24 March 1972
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
BACKGROUND
Comments on an Era
Peingold: Just a moment ago you were commenting on the times
that you and the Chief Justice have lived through.
Could you say a bit more about that?
Spence: Well, I am very happy to have lived to the age that
Chief Justice Warren and I have lived. We were born
the same year, 1891, the Chief having been born on
March 19, and I having been born four days before
that.
In this era that we ve lived, I think we ve
had a tremendously intriguing train of progress in
many, many ways. It s been particularly evident in
transportation and communication, perhaps.
We have lived from the horse and buggy days into
the space age, and we re both fortunate to be in
pretty good health, even though we ve passed the
eighty mark. You must remember in orienting ourselves,
that in 1891 California had only been a state for
forty-one years. The transcontinental railroad, the
first to arrive out here, had only arrived in 1869
twenty-two years before we were born. It was truly
the horse and buggy age, because even the bicycle
the "safety", as it was then called, that replaced
the old, big, high-wheeler, or main-wheeler was in
its Infancy, you might say. Of course, the auto
mobile was in its early infancy. You saw very few
of them, if any, on the streets in the nineties.
They came along more after the turn of the century,
when they came into a little more general use.
Spence: Of course there was no suoh thing as a heavler-
than-alr machine in flight in the nineties. There
were attempts to put up dirigibles and balloons of
one kind or another, for various purposes. But they
were relatively amateurish, as we look back at them
today. Out by Golden Gate Park in San Francisco,
along the Panhandle, along Pell Street, where the
Southern Pacific Hospital was later built and existed
for many years, was a great big frame of a dirigible,
that was under construction. It stood there for
many years, but the dirigible was never completed so
far as I know.
For public transportation, there were cable
cars and there were many horseoars, on both sides
of the Bay. As a matter of fact, the electric power
development was Just in its infancy. A horsecar ran
between Oakland and Alameda, for instance. It
belonged to a man by the name of Theodore Meetz, an
Alamedan, who sold it to the Traction Company in
The Traction Company put a little Toonerville trolley,
with turnouts across the marsh and up through Alameda,
and also up into Oakland on the other side of the
estuary after crossing the bridge.
So far as communication was concerned, they had
had the telegraph at a fairly early date, but the
telephone was quite new, and there weren t too many
of them in the nineties. It was very unsatisfactory
service one would get, with a lot of interference on
the lines. The telephone, however, came along rather
rapidly from that time on. Of course there was no
radio or radar in those days.
The popular invention of the day, which amused
us very much, was the old, so-called gramophone, that
had been invented by Thomas Edison, not too long
before, and which, in a very squawky way, with a
round tube arrangement, rather than a disk, played
through a horn. It was considered a very great treat
to have one of those in your home to entertain the
family and friends.
Toward the time of the First World War, things
had picked up considerably. The telephone was in
general use, radio had come in to some extent. In
the field forces over in France we used a ground
telegraph, which intrigued most of us because it
seemed so uncanny to be able to set up the simple
Spencet set-up we did, and telegraph by ground from one spot
to the other, provided the spots weren t too distant.
Of course, the motion picture, as a means of
communication, was in its very infancy. We had the
nickelodeons about the turn of the century, which
were little places with very odd little short films,
and a pianist who played to try to entertain the
crowd while the films were running as well as when
they failed to run. It developed into a real industry,
after the turn of the century. Soon they had the
startling invention of the means for combining the
voice with the picture. That came in the twenties,
and it was considerably later that they achieved any
success in putting color into the motion picture
field. Today we Just take it as a matter of course,
seeing beautiful colored pictures, with very true
voice, with practically no interference. We can
remember the days when we didn t even have the
nickelodeons, and didn t know the motion picture
show in any form. What a difference today with a
color television in almost every home.
Returning to transportation, I didn t mention
the fact that it wasn t until after the turn of the
century that the Wright brothers first got up in the
air with a heavier-than-alr machine, at Kitty Hawk
for a short flight. That event was hailed all over
the world as one of the greatest steps forward that
there had been made.
In the First World War, we had pretty good
flying machines, as they went in those days. But
it was a crime, the number of those that went down
during the war solely because of their own defects,
and not because they had been hit by the enemy.
Well, I could talk like thin all day. You opened
up a broad subject, and you asked me to say something,
and I ve tried to respond briefly.
Family History
Feingold:
Spence :
Feingold:
Spence :
Feingold:
Spence:
Feingold:
Spence:
Yes. I gather you were born In Alameda County.
No, I was born in San Francisco. I was born here at 1710
Eddy Street, and interestingly, the little home I
think still exists. Not too far back, a year or
two ago, some very tough crooks were finally located
and arrested in that nice, little cottage where I
was born, out in the Western Addition, which was a
nicely developing little residence district in 1891.
That little neighborhood probably was not very much
built up then, was it?
Well, it was. It had been developing. My grandfather
lived a couple of blocks above, between Divisadero
and Broderick. I was born on Eddy Street between
Scott and Pierce. Yes, there were quite a number of
homes; it was quite well built up. They were flats
mostly, I think. I was born in a cottage, which
unlike most flats, was not Jammed into a twenty-five
foot lot with no ventilation or air from either side.
There were several food stores and other commercial
establishments along Divisadero Street, even at that
time.
I didn t remain in San Francisco long. My
family moved to Alameda in 1893 out we were only
there a year or so before my father was made manager
of the Western Meat Company in San Jose. We moved to
San Jose, where we remained for six years, before
returning to San Francisco. Then after being in
San Francisco from 1900 to 1902, we moved to Alameda,
which became quite a permanent home. I lived there
for fifty-eight years, until I960, Just before I
retired from the Supreme Court-
lived in Oakland.
Since then, I ve
Were your parents native Californians?
My mother was a native Californian, yes.
What was her name?
My mother s name was Grace Roberts, and in collateral
relationships some way, I m related to Earl Roberts,
Spence:
Feingold:
Spence :
Feingold:
Spenoe :
Feingold i
Spence :
Lord Roberts he Is called. They called him "Bobs,"
but he was a great general. He distinguished himself
both In India, where he was born, I believe, and
also down In Africa, In the Boer War.
My grandfather, George G. Roberts, came here
in 1851 He had been a headmaster of a school In
a town called Carnew down In southwest Ireland, and
my grandmother had been a teacher. Even after they
came here, and he was In the contracting business,
they had occasion to teach English at night to many
of the big merchants of this city, because many of
these people had come from Europe with Insufficient
education in English.
Then they came here straight from Ireland?
Practically, although there was a stopover, probably
of a year or two, in St. Louis before they came out.
My grandfather first came west alone, and subsequently
went back to St. Louis and brought the rest of the
family out. In his family, there were thirteen
children. My mother was the thirteenth child of that
couple. Two of them were born in Ireland. One was
born on the high seas, coming to America. One was
born in St. Louis, and the rest were born here. I
knew eight of them well as adults. In those days,
you know, there were many children lost in childbirth,
as well as shortly thereafter.
Where did your father s family come from?
My father s family lived in Ohio, and my father didn t
arrive here till 1882. He had an uncle and a brother
out here, who preceded him by a short time. The
uncle, who had his home up on top of Belvedere, in
Marin County, had quite a clothing establishment. I
think it was called the Chicago Trading Company, on
Kearny Street. I knew him and his wife quite well,
before their passing. My father s father died Just
a couple of months before my father was born. My
father was raised by an uncle, James Clark, and my
father s name was Clark Spence, named after that
uncle.
And then your father went into the meat business?
He was with the Western Meat Company here, but
afterwards, when he came back from San Jose, he went
Spence: into the wholesale Jewelry business; he was in the
firm of Phelps and Adams, at 120 Sutter Street,
where Roos-Atkins is now looated. Incidentally,
that property belonged then, and may still belong,
to the University of California. It belonged to
the University, I know, at the time of the fire. It
burned to the ground, as much of the rest of down
town San Francisco did.
Education
Peingold: Getting back to your childhood, did you start school
here, or did you go to school mostly in Alameda?
Spence: No, I started school in the Grant School in San Jose,
and I had Just about a year there. We moved our home
then, and I went to Longfellow School in San Jose for
about one year. Then after we returned to San
Francisco in 1900, I was one year In the Golden Gate
School, out on Golden Gate Avenue near Scott. Then,
because of the fact that I d completed the highest
grade they taught there, I transferred over to the
Hamilton Grammar School, which was next to what was
then the Girls 1
High School on the southeast corner
of Geary and Scott. It was to the east of the Girls
High School, and facing north toward what now is that
large playground and park between Geary and Post
Streets.
We moved to Alameda, because we had been
temporarily living in the old family home, at 1915
Eddy Street, and we were about to have another member
in our family. I had one sister older, and one sister
younger, who had been born In San Jose. We were
about to have another member of the family, and my
dad purchased a home on Weber Street in Alameda. We
were still living there at the time I went in the
service in 191?. No, I take that back. We had Just
moved from there, and leased the old Whittell home,
which was a very wonderful old place, right on the
Bay shore, and completely surrounded by magnificent
trees. It had a swimming pool, tennis courts, and
its own windmill. You may remember hearing of the
son, George Whittell, who passed away recently. He
used to like to keep lions in his apartment in San
Francisco. Quite a character.
felngold: Then, continuing with your education, where did you
go to high school?
Spence: When we went to Alameda, I was in the high sixth, I
believe. In Alameda I went to Mastick School, then
to the Alameda High School, and thereafter to
Stanford University, where I spent six years, having
received an A.B. in 1913, and a J.D. in 1915.
Peingold: What did you major in at Stanford?
Spence: Oh, pre-legal, as they called it, and then I took the
law course.
Peingold: How did you decide to go into law?
Spence: I decided after my first year at Stanford. I didn t
know what I was going to go into at the start. I was
Just taking a course leading to business preparation,
economics and so forth. I finally decided I wanted
to be a lawyer in the second year I was down there.
I had gone to Stanford with the idea that I would
like to go to college for a short time, and at least
be able to say I had gone to college I thought I
might be there six months and I ended up being there
six years. It was a very pleasant experience.
Thinking of the money standards, and changes of
money standards You know, we had a terrible time
getting away from the effects of the big depressions
of 1893. In 1907 here in San Francisco, we had quite
a depression, you might call it. They had to issue
clearinghouse certificates, which were used in place
of money. You didn t see any money whatever, other
than perhaps small coins.
Peingold: Isn t that interesting! I ve never heard of that.
Spence: Everybody accepted it. I think the university used
those for a couple of years or more, trying to get
over that critical time. I always say that California
didn t get out of the doldrums until perhaps the time
of the First World War. It was a very unsettled time.
Business was rather depressed. It picked up a little
bit at the time of the 1915 Panama Pacific Exposition,
which was located out here on the marina lands, but
it was a very, very slow process.
8
Spenoe: I know of only two men, out of all those who
came out of Stanford Law School about the time I
did, who got Jobs which paid a salary. One was
Courtney Moore, who went with Garrett McEnerney here,
at a hundred dollars a month; and the other was
Maurice T. Dooling, Jr., whose father was a federal
judge, and who went into the city attorney s office
here.
It was hard even to get desk space in an office
where one could try to get a little business for
himself. It was very difficult. I started to mention
these things because of the difference in money
value. I got out of high school in December of 1908,
and I wanted to get a little money to go to college.
I did everything I could to get a Job to bring in
some money, but you Just practically could not get a
Job, period. I ended up by going to work for my
father, in his wholesale Jewelry business, in the
packing room at nine dollars a week. I commuted from
Alameda, and paid my communte fare and lunch and so
forth. I soon found out that it wasn t going to
bring me much money toward going to college at that
rate.
So I took off with some other fellows in May of
1909. We went up north, and we sold a book called
the Davis Commercial Encyclopedia of the Northwest.
Incidentally, that was put out by a fellow by the
name of Ellis Davis, who was a University of California
man. I went up there with a man in the University of
California Law School then, Lynn Laney. His brother
afterwards ran the Inter-City Express over in Oakland
for many years. I think the family probably still
runs it. Lynn Laney was later district attorney in
Phoenix, Arizona, and quite a prominent attorney
there. Finally I visited him in Phoenix. We hadn t
seen each other in fifty-three years. We had a very
nice day together. I m not too sure whether Lynn
Laney is still living, but he was quite a man, even
though very small in stature.
Feingold: So you earned the money that put you through school?
Spence: Well, I earned a few hundred dollars up there, which
was pretty good. Came home with it in gold in a
money belt, such as we used to use. I took a look at
the 1909 exposition at Seattle on my way back.
Spence: Thereafter I worked every summer, and every
Christmas vacation, and also did some newspaper work
for the dailies. Wrote some feature pages for
Sunday papers. Wrote local stuff for the Alameda
paper, concerning local people at Stanford. Got a
little money out of that.
I had to invent many ways of trying to make
money to get through college, because the first
business hit in a depression is the Jewelry business,
as you can imagine. While my father s jewelry
business had some very satisfactory years later, it
was in the doldrums at the time. You see, 1907 was
the time of the depression and the clearinghouse
certificates, and it was in the fall of 1909 that I
was starting to college. I worked two summers in the
oil fields. Whenever we couldn t get a Job elsewhere,
we d go to the oil fields, because all of the regulars
got out of the oil fields, it was so hot in the summer,
and came back later, after they d had their vacation
down at the seashore or in the mountains. So you
could always go to the oil fields and get a Job in
the heat of summer.
I worked for the Associated Pipeline in 1910,
and I worked on a rotary drill for General Petroleum
in 1913- I worked in jewelry stores up here every
Christmas. I think we got two dollars and a half a
day in the jewelry stores. I think we ended up about
10:00 each night after an early start in the morning.
Money was worth a great deal. Well, just to give you
an idea, when I was in college, with board and room
and fraternity dues in the whole six years I was
there, the bill was never over $3^- a month. So you
can see how different it is today.
Early Work Experience
Peingold: Yes. Well, what happened when you graduated from
law school?
Spence: I started down here within a hundred yards of where
we are, down in the Kohl Building at California and
Montgomery.
Peingold: For pay?
10
Spence: No. Well, I hate to tell you what the amount was. It
was supposed to cover my commute fare I think. But
anyhow I had the right to take my own business and
so forth. But, you know, it s surprising how well
the world seems to get along without the services of
a young new attorney who has Just come into a big
city and put his name on a door. They don t seem
to recognize the fact that he s around I
What saved me at the start was, I got a temporary
position with Percy Long, city attorney of San
Francisco, helping Jesse Steinhart who was an ex-
member of the city attorney s office. He was then
doing some special work for them on the fight by the
Municipal Railroad with the United Railroads to
parallel and use the same tracks down Market Street.
You see, there were four sets of tracks on Market
Street then. It was the Municipal Railroad s right
to use the outer set of United Railroad s tracks that
they were battling. It was long drawn-out litigation,
and I went in mainly to do a special piece of work.
However, I accompanied Jesse Steinhart into court
with regularity, and did most of the research work
for him, on that Job.
Peingold: So you were able to earn enough to keep yourself
going while at Stanford and thereafter?
Spence: I was. I had practically no help from the family
during my college days. If I got in a real pinch
the family would somehow find maybe $25 or $50 to get
me over it. Among other things, I had a laundry
concession. You may recall that Herbert Hoover had
the same thing in his college days, collecting the
bills from students for the laundry people. I had
one of those Jobs. I assure you that my efforts
were quite varied in my endeavor to earn the money
to go through college.
Peingold: How long were you with the firm here?
Spence: Well, of course I started to practice in 1915 and
the World War started in 17- So I was with it until
then.
Peingold: You mentioned when we spoke last time that you became
active in the Young Lawyers Club?
Spence: The Young Lawyers? Yes, that was a club formed in
11
Spenoe: Oakland before the war. Of course I was living in
Alameda County, and was associated quite closely
with the young lawyers in Alameda County. As a
matter of fact, I dug up a little business in Alameda
County to keep the wolf from the door, probate
matters and other types of work.
The Young Lawyers Club started probably in
1916, maybe 15. It started largely because the
young lawyers were full of pep and had an idea that
the Alameda County Bar Association was a little bit
moribund at the time. A very fine gentleman, and
a great lawyer, Melvin C. Chapman, had been president
of the Bar Association in Alameda County for almost
twenty years, and he tried to get out of it, but
they d all put him back in each year. When any man
has been in office a long time, he doesn t seem to
have the ingenuity and the initiative that he had
when in his first years in office. So it was with
M. C. Chapman. It got to be rather routine with him.
He d probably have only one meeting a year, and that
was a pretty formal affair, with a fixed routine. In
fact, it cost so much, the young lawyer could hardly
afford it. They d put on annual dinners at the best
places.
The Young Lawyers formed their organization
because they wanted to have a group of their own
which would be an active, going concern. We weren t
able to do much, and didn t get to the point of
developing programs which might have been beneficial
to us before the war started. We were practically
only a social organization. We did have a very closely
knit organization in a sense, with most of the young
lawyers of Alameda County in it. Earl Warren was one
of them. I was one. Gilbert Jones, Dave Clark
Peingold: Was Oliver Hamlin, Ollie Hamlin, in It?
Spencer I m not sure whether Ollie was in there or not, to
tell you the truth, but I think he was.
There were quite a number. Tom Ledwlch, who was
afterwards a superior court Judge was in it. Chris
POT, who was afterwards a superior court Judge was in
there. We had a live group. We met at the old
Peerless Cafe, with a high degree of regularity, at
least once a month. We had a rollicking good time
and enjoyed ourselves for all that period.
12
Spence: But when the war came along, practically every
man In it was eligible, and we soon drifted into
uniforms.
Feinsold: Was this the first time that you met Earl Warren?
Spenoe: I don t think I ever met Earl before 1915, when I
started to practice law. I m not sure. Earl was
with Robinson and Robinson for a time, I think
Peingold: Right. About a year.
Spence: I m not sure Just where Earl was located. He was
also assistant city attorney before he went into
the district attorney s office. I don t think he
went into the district attorney s office before about
1921.
Peingold: That s right.
Spence: But I had known him quite well prior to that time,
and probably largely through this Young Lawyers
Club. We didn t have the Athens Club till a little
later, of which Earl was a very active member. He
played handball there every afternoon, keeping himself
in fine physical shape.
Peingold: Yes. That s a great way to do it.
Spence: That club was not in existence at the time we started.
It came into existence, I guess, in the early twenties.
I belonged to it when I was over there as a Judge.
World War I
Peingold: So you went into the service then. Did you enlist?
Spence: I did enlist. I was down south at the time the
applications were closed for the first officers
training camp. War was declared in April. I think
the first training camp started in April or May. The
second training camp, that I got into and that was
a three-month camp started in August of 191?. Well,
I had enlisted in the meantime in the Tenth Company,
Coast Artillery of the National Guard, in order to
get started on learning a little military, and also
13
Spenoe: with the idea of applying for the next training
oamp. I was a sergeant when I entered the service.
We worked quite hard, some of us, who did enlist.
I got to be a second-class gunner, and then a first-
class gunner. Then I took the tests for the Important
post of plotter. A plotter gets the information from
stations along the coast, and then plots on the
plotting board the course of the ship to be fired
upon. He gets that information every thirty seconds
and can thereby plot the course of the ship. Then
he can calculate how fast it is going, and the range,
and what lead should be taken ahead of that ship to
offset the flight time of the projectile to be fired
at it.
Peingold: Now where was this?
Spence: Where? Well, it was in the National Guard training
until August 5 Most of our early training was had
out at the old armory at l^th and Mission. You know
that area?
Peingold: Yes. I don t live very far from there.
Spence: Well, Colonel Mathewson who was secretary of the
railroad commission was the colonel of that regiment.
Then we were called Into active federal service on
August 5 of 1917 We were an odd-looking bunch of
soldiers, poorly uniformed, as we marched out Market
Street and over to Port Scott. We went into service
there in tents, with the good old cold fog around us.
But fortunately for me, my application to the second
officers training camp was accepted, and in the
latter part of August that is, I d only been at
Port Scott two or three weeks, I left and went down
to the training camp at the Presidio.
I was commissioned there on November 27 of 1917*
as a First Lieutenant of Field Artillery. I was
ordered immediately to report in Prance as a casual
officer, that Is, one temporarily unconnected with
troops. I was given ample time to get there. It
worked out very nicely. I didn t have to report at
Hoboken until the 15th of January. Transportation
hadn t caught up with things, and they couldn t push
ships any faster. It had the effect of giving me
Christmas at home. I left home the day after
Christmas of 17, and I got back home in late June of
19.
Feingold: And then what did you do?
Spenoo: After I came baok? I started practicing law in
Alameda. One of the firm, a man by the name of
L.R. Weinmann, who was then police Judge in Alameda,
had become attorney for the Citizens* National Bank
over there. In those days such attorneys did more
for the banks than they do now, because most banks
now have attorneys in their trust departments and
what not, who are so-called house attorneys. But
we were upstairs over the bank, and did quite a lot
of work for the bank, while still practicing
independently. I was there until I went to the
legislature in 21.
I left there and formed a partnership with
Daniel W. Burbank, and we had offices in the Alexander
Building, at 155 Montgomery, in San Francisco. We
got into the Alexander Building in 1922, just about
the time they started to knock down the old Buss
Building. Then they started to put up the new Russ
Building, and those were the days when they did a
lot of riveting, and by all odds I had the noisiest
law office in San Francisco for the first years that
I was baok over here!
Feingold: Well, backing up a bit to your law practice in
Alameda, by that time had the economic picture picked
up enough so that you had a salary?
Spence: Yes, and a partnership interest
15
THE STATE LEGISLATURE, 1921-1925
Getting Into Politics
Peingold: Well, now, where did you get the idea to run for
the state legislature?
Spence: It was the furthest thing from my mind, but it was
brought quickly to mind because a man by the name of
William J. Locke, who had been assemblyman from our
district, had become city attorney and deemed it
incompatible to hold both offices. He came to me
and suggested I run.
Peingold: Why did he come to you? Do you know?
Spence: I Just happened to know him quite well. They were
looking for somebody to take his place, and I think
my name was suggested to him by some of those who
had previously backed him. You see, the Republican
party at that time was the dominant party by far here.
The Democratic party was practically dormant. They
would usually put up a candidate for governor, and
perhaps a few other offices, but for most of the
legislative posts, they d put up no candidate at all.
In the Republican party, there were definite
factions. The split in the Republican party back
in those days had come about by reason of the fact
that, unhappily, there was some substantial corruption
in politics, much more so, I believe, than one will
find today. If one read the book Abe Ruef s San
Francisco, or Franklin Hitchbom s book, The System.
he will learn of the deplorable situation here in
San Francisco in those days, and. probably also learn
of Abe Ruef *s picture being taken at the Republican
16
Spenoe: convention about that time down at Santa Cruz, with
his arms around some of the prominent political
figures of the state.
It was the Hiram Johnson regime that came in
battling statewide the corruption that was pretty
widespread in this state. As a matter of fact, it
may be recalled that that corruption hadn t ceased,
because in the early twenties, which was the time I
spent in the legislature, we had the Teapot Dome
scandal and the prosecution of Secretary Albert Pall,
Secretary of the Interior, who was convicted of
accepting bribes, I believe.
In any event, the well-entrenched group in the
Republican party, the ultra-conservative group at
that time, had been challenged to a large extent by
Hiram Johnson, about 1910, and following. In the
aftermath of the Hiram Johnson movement there was in
this state a very definite so-called progressive
group in the Republican party, as opposed to the
stand-patters, or the conservatives, or the so-called
radical right in the party.
Well, when I went up to the legislature, I became
part of the progressive group within the party, and
we had battles up there for the speakershlp twice,
once in 1923 and once in 1925 >
in which Prank Merriam,
the choice of Governor Richardson, won each time by
one vote, and became speaker of the assembly in both
the 23 session and the 25 session.
I ve gotten ahead of the story on the question
you asked me, and that was how I came to get into
politics. Now, I had told you that Mr. Locke had
suggested it. Mr. Locke was among the progressive
group in the Republican party at that time. Of course
when you have a division within a party, usually each
side is looking to get people into office who are
sympathetic toward their side of the picture.
Mr. Locke suggested it to me, and several others
did. I definitely decided that I was going to settle
down in my law practice and not be disturbed in it,
but I finally yielded to the suggestions made by
several friends, and I ran. I was elected in 1920.
I got the Republican nomination, in a battle.
Nobody had filed for the Democratic nomination, and
I got enough Democratic write-ins so that I was given
1?
Spence: the Democratic nomination as well. I think I had
the Democratic nomination the other two times I
ran, on which occasions I happily had no opposition
for tho Republican, because in those days we got
only $1000 for serving as a legislator for two years.
We got no expense money, like the thirty dollars a
day the gentlemen get up there now.
We went up to Sacramento and we paid our own
board and keep out of our $1000. Let me say that
the money was rationed out in such manner as the
legislature dictated, that is, the salary money.
They elected to ration it out on the basis of ten
dollars per day. So It was eaten up in a hundred
days of legislative work, and you ll find that very
few sessions lasted more than a hundred days in
those days, because this thousand dollars just ran
out. But in those days you could get a room quite
inexpensively. You didn t have trouble living on the
money, but you must remember we had to go through
perhaps a primary and a general election campaign
and meet the expenses on those. Then we had to carry
the overhead of our private offices, as we left and
went to Sacramento for three months time.
Feingold: I have a couple of questions about the Republican
party then. Did you get the support of Joe Knowland?
Spence: I can t answer that question definitely, as to my
first legislative election. I did have the backing
of Mike Kelly. Kelly was quite a respectable so-
called political boss, and so was Tom Finn, over here
in San Francisco, although lots of people used to
cast aspersions at both these men. They were pretty
decent fellows to find interesting themselves in
politics.
My opponent in the first campaign was a man by
the name of Ed Allen, who was city editor of the
paper, the Alameda Times -Star, which was run then by
Sherman McDowell. I think on that first campaign
I barely knew the Knowlands in those days. I m
pretty sure they took no position. But I do remember
that afterwards in the other legislative campaigns
when I had no opposition I got their endorsement
which was published with others in their paper before
the elections. I am quite sure that when I had a
contested campaign for the District Court of Appeal
in 1930, the Knowlands did support me.
18
Felngold: In those early years, oould you figure out what part
of the population voted for you?
Spence: I think we had better ideas on that subject then than
some of them have now. Here in San Francisco, as
you may know Jumping over here as an example there
was a very strong Catholic representation in public
office, and a very strong group, politically minded,
were of the Irish descent and Catholics. In my 1930
campaign, Prank Deasy was my opponent. He had run
two years before against Justice Joseph Koford who
then held the position. I looked into the record of
voting before my campaign, and I found that in some
of the precincts down here in the Mission district,
for instance, Prank Deasy had beaten Justice Koford
as much as eleven to one, which is almost unbelievable,
Well, when you get situations like that, it s
not hard to tell who s backing you and who isn t. I
will say that in my first legislative campaign, I
carried all the Alameda precincts in the primary
except my opponent s, which he won by a small margin,
and in one precinct next to his there was a tie vote.
I can t tell you how close it was in the rest of the
Alameda precincts, but in some it was quite lopsided
in my favor. On the other hand, he prevailed in some
of the Oakland precincts.
Peingold: I see. What sort of precincts were they where it
was very lopsided in your favor?
Spence: Well, they were the precincts that knew me best, and
where there were very strong veterans groups that
backed me up. I had been very active in forming the
American Legion post, and also at the first state
convention held here in San Francisco of the American
Legion. So I had lots of friends in the veteran
groups. While the Legion didn t itself get into
politics, a large number of the Legion members, the
Veterans of Foreign Wars and other veterans groups
Individually got together and formed a very large
committee, and they worked. They worked very hard,
and they put out mailing propaganda and so forth and
so on.
Now, you asked me which precincts. Part of my
district was in Oakland, and I can say that I didn t
do quite as well in Oakland as I did in Alameda. I
wasn t known particularly in the Oakland precincts,
19
Spenoe: and in the second place, there was an old constable
out there, Bill Allen, who was very popular in that
district. The name Allen had its appeal to a lot
of these people, many of whom were foreigners, The
assembly district included the strip south of East
l^th Street down to the estuary, in which there was
a tremendous group of people of foreign birth, who
had become naturalized. The name was very easily
mistaken for somebody else s name, and the popularity
of Bill Allen, the constable, was reflected into the
vote, I think, of Ed Allen, my opponent over in those
precincts. But in Alameda it was pretty well known
which was which, because both of us had been there
you might say for most of our lives.
Politics is a very funny thing, as you knowl
Peingold: Yes. Were you active in the Republican party after
that?
Spence: I was active up until the time I went on the bench.
But a Judge is not supposed to be active in partisan
politics, so I was not active in partisan politics
after I went on the bench in 192?.
The Municipal Utility District Act
Peingold: I see. Well, I f
ve done a bit of reading about some
of the measures that you said you helped through the
legislature.
Spence: Oh, did you?
Peingold: Yes. I got very interested in the Municipal Utility
District Act, and I want to ask you about that. You
said you had something to do with that.
Spence: Well, that was very interesting. It was not my brain
child in the first place, although I encouraged it
along. I will give credit to my predecessor and
others in Alameda County. They were great public
ownership people. I believe in public ownership
where it can t be done by private capital. And there
was nobody who stood ready to put up the money that
was necessary to get a water supply out of the Sierras
for the East Bay. Nobody in private life. It was
20
Spenoe: one of those oases where It was perfectly natural
for a public body to do It, having tho bonding
capacity and taxing capacity in order to sustain it
if necessary. BART* and East Bay Utility District,
and other districts, are still found on Alameda
County tax bills.
Well, in any event, we needed the water supply
very badly because Alameda County was growing, like
the rest of the state, very fast. Our water supply
was being depleted by this increased population. We
only had the local supply, the lakes that we had
there, Lake Chabot and a few others. So we put through
this bill. I introduced the bill which was Assembly
Bill No. 755- The original bill was largely drawn
by a group other than myself.
Felngold: Who was in this group that drew up the bill?
Spence: Well, I m not sure of all of them by any means, but
I know that Mayor Davie of Oakland was very much
interested, that the city engineer of Oakland I
can t think of his name now was interested. Mayor
Bartlett of Berkeley was very much interested. Mayor
Bartlett was looked upon as a little bit extreme by
some of the people on the other side of the picture.
But Mr. Locke, then city attorney of Alameda, was
most active in the group that drew the original bill.
Then during the thirty-day recess, which was
provided for in the constitution I think it s still
there the legislators go home and the printing
office gets a chance to catch up with its printing
up in Sacramento, and the bills get a chance to get
circulated. During that thirty-day recess, I think
we had three or four meetings in Mayor Davie s office
in Oakland, of all the city attorneys, mayors, city
engineers and city managers, if any, of the cities
of the East Bay that it was proposed to bring into
this new district. And we got the best views of
all of them.
That was what resulted in my putting together
the amendments to the bill, which I did twice before
the bill was ultimately passed. And so we had pretty
unanimous agreement by all the officials of the East
*Bay Area Rapid Transit
21
Spenoe: Bay cities; and the chambers of commerce were in
favor of this bill because they didn t know of any
private agency ready to put up the money required.
Well, anyhow the bill passed both houses, and
I had very little difficulty with it. The governor
signed it and it became Chapter 218 of the Statutes
of 1921. Very promptly an election was called to
form the district, the district was formed, and the
bond issue was approved. The district really made
more rapid progress than any development of that kind
I ve ever known. I don t know whether I mentioned it
to you, but when I was a small boy they used to show
lantern slides at illustrated lectures relating to
the great Hetch Hetchy water supply that San Francisco
was planning to develop. Well, that started when I
was very young, and many years later I got into the
legislature, put through this bill, the East Bay
district was organized, and it had water down in
Alameda County from the mountains and enough to sell
to San Francisco, before San Francisco ever got a
single drop of Hetch Hetohy water for its use. So it
shows how differently those things can go.
That water supplied by the district to the East
Bay, as you may know, is a very nice, soft water.
We all threw away our water softeners after we got
in that new supply. It s been a very pleasant
experience, because the district has been very well
handled. They ve had fine men in there as directors,
and the professional staff has been very well
selected. I think I mentioned to you, when we talked
of it before, that this bill was put in such shape
that the directors would not be the ones who were
spending all their time furnishing the professional
skill and Judgment, but that these directors would
hire a highly competent man to act for the district,
somewhat in the capacity that a city manager acts
for a city. It s worked out very well.
I would feel remiss in saying as much as I have
about the district, without mentioning the name of
Theodore Wittschen, who was attorney for the district
for some years. I think he did fine work in settling
the water rights of the numerous people as well as
cities, including Lodi, who claimed their water rights
were interfered with by the new district, drawing
water from their source of supply. He did an excellent
job in minimizing the amount of litigation that was
22
Spenoe: filed against the district and In settling out quite
satisfactorily and expeditlously most of the suits
that were filed. Incidentally, Mr. Wittschen was
married to the sister of Dr. Robert G. Sproul, the
former president of the University of California.
Feingold: One of the interesting things I discovered is that
my office in Berkeley interviewed Mr. Bartlett, and
he spoke about the work that he did on the Municipal
Utility District. He mentions a Mrs. Prank Saylor,
who was in the legislature.
Spence: Oh yes. She was a marvelous woman.
Feingold: He says that she introduced the legislation.
Spence: Mr. Bartlett was mistaken in that. He worked with
us on drawing the bill and Mrs. Saylor supported it,
but I was the one that introduced It. My name
appears as the sole author, but I don t claim total
responsibility or credit for it. I had the help of
Mrs. Saylor and others in the legislature in passing
the bill.
Mrs. Saylor was a very high class lady. She
was the wife of Frank Saylor, who was a druggist, in
Berkeley. Mrs* Saylor and Mrs. Hughes, of Oroville,
another very fine lady, sat right in front of me in
the legislature, and we communicated back and forth
quite freely. I tried to be helpful to them on
complex legal matters and they were very gracious
about acknowledging it.
Feingold: It seemed from what I read that the whole idea of a
municipal utility district was rather new, because
It cut across county lines.
Spence: I think probably it s fair to say that, although I
can t help but think that irrigation districts had
been formed crossing city lines, and
Feingold: Yes, that s right. I read that one of the reasons
this was new was that it provided for more than just
water, that it had provisions for ultimately developing
everything from transportation to recreation.
Spence: You are quite correct about that. I don t know how
I ever got the bill passed. When I look back at that
bill and see the broad powers that nobody questioned
23
Spence: at the time I think power to operate telephone
companies and many other types of utilities! Of
course it exercised its broad powers to great
advantage when it undertook the work of sewage
disposal.
Peingold: Oh, that s interesting.
Spence: Yes, the East Bay Utility District handles sewage
disposal. There was nobody else to do it but some
public agency, and it had to be a public agency that
included other public agencies, like cities.
Peingold: Did it develop any of the other things besides
sewage?
Spence: I don t think anything of great importance.
Peingold: Light, water, power, heat, transportation, telephone,
garbage and sewage facilities were all authorized
in here.
Spence: Yes, it was very, very broad.
Peingold: What sort of arguments were there against it?
Spence: Well, strangely enough, I had very little trouble in
getting that bill passed, and there was very little
opposition to getting the district formed. The need
was so obvious. The lack of private money to bring
needed water from a great distance made it almost
imperative that we do something of this kind. We
had no organized opposition against the bill in the
legislature and I don t remember any organized
opposition against the forming of the district. Of
course there was some of the usual opposition against
the bond issue phase. Any bond issue gets some
opposition, some organized as well as some silent
opposition.
Peingold: I would suppose there would be some opposition to
public ownership, also, the creeping socialism
argument.
Spence: Well, you must remember you live in a different age
from that at the start of this century. One of the
reasons that there was so much opposition to public
ownership generally in those days was because of the
corruption which was believed to be rampant in public
Spence: office. People would argue that any publicly owned
utility would be Just another place for political
patronage; and that political patronage meant
sustained political power, through the many people
put on Jobs.
Today we have our big state water project on;
the city of Los Angeles has developed its vast water
and power department; Hetch Hetchy water has been
brought down to San Francisco under municipal control;
and the East Bay operates its municipal utility
district. I don t believe people today hear great
opposition to all public ownership. Look at the rail
roads. Both the railroads and the people appeared
happy to have Amtrack formed. Things had gotten to
the point that it was rather hopeless for the rail
roads to try to work out anything in the way of
maintaining a passenger service, particularly when
there was so much competition among themselves and
with other types of transportation. Perhaps there
will always be some who are opposed to all public
ownership; but when the need for some service is very
great and when private capital is not ready, willing
and able to fill that great need, then the opposition
to public ownership becomes minimal.
Feingold: When the Municipal Utility District Act was first
thought about, was there any discussion about where
the water was going to come from? Or was it already
decided that it would come from the Sierras?
Spence: It was pretty well determined, I think, that this
was the most logical source up there on the Mokelumne.
It s proved to have been a wise decision to have gone
to the Mokelumne for the water.
It s interesting that although I ve been up
past that area time and again, but I ve never visited
Pardee Dam! I ve been asked by the directors to go
up. I have been up to the Hetch Hetchy. Over here
in San Francisco, the supervisors have their auto
mobiles and their chauffeurs, you know, and they
invite people to come up to stay for a weekend. I
spent a weekend up at Hetch Hetchy, and it was very
enjoyable and illuminating. But if the East Bay
district directors invite someone up to Mokelumne,
I think they have to dig into their own pockets to
take a guest up there. The directors over there still
only get $^0 a month, I believe. It s ridiculously
25
Spence:
Peingold:
Spence:
Peingold :
Spence:
Peingold:
Spence :
Feingold:
Spence :
Peingold:
Spence :
Peingold:
low, but it carries out in an extreme way the idea
that a director s Jo"b should not be a political
plum. It should be something that men would do
gratuitously as a public service. However they ought
to make that compensation measure up at least to the
wear and tear on telephones, tires and shoe leather
that a man endures in public office.
Yes. I think you mentioned when I was here the
last time, that this act was also used to form some
other water districts?
I think it s been used to form many others. The most
notable in this vicinity is the Marin Municipal
Utility District. That district was formed under
this act.
Was that fairly soon afterwards?
I think they came in quite soon after the legislation
was enacted, yes.
Your mentioning the state water plan reminds me of
a question that one of the women in my office wanted
me to ask you, which is, if you were sitting on the
State Supreme Court when the Ivanhoe decision was
handed down. It had to do with contracts for the
Central Valley Project, I think. It had to do with
the development of the state water system.
I haven t any definite recollection of having
participated on the court in any cases involving
that state water plan. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a
minute, now. Are you talking about the case involving
the validity of the 160 acre limitation?
Yes, that s right,
limitation.
It had to do with the 160 acre
That case caused quite a battle on the court,
resulting in a four to three decision. That was a
case in which the majority of the court went one way,
and the United States Supreme Court went the other.
That s right. Where were you on that decision?.
I followed Judge Shenk in his majority opinion.
In the majority opinion? I see.
26
Spence: When you talk about a 160 acre ranch today, you re
not talking about anything very realistic. That s
old time stuff, farming on 160 acres.
Felngold: That s what you objected to?
Spence: That has always been In the reclamation acts. Those
acts were acts under which the federal government
was carving out homesteads on federal lands and was
anxious to limit them to 160 acres to get as many
people as possible on family farms. It was In the
days when 160 acres of any kind of land that was
worth while at all made a very good acreage for a
single family operation.
Today, there are very few places of consequence
in our agricultural setup where you have many 160
acre operations. They Just can t exist. They can t
meet the competition. Perhaps a good agricultural
setup, which can sufficiently diversify its products,
lends itself to a family raising all its own needs
in the way of food. It also lends itself to an
operation by the family alone, where they re not
involved with labor troubles or labor shortages.
I ve always liked the idea of getting the people
back on 160 acre family farms, or at least a fair
percentage of them. But most 160 acre tracts cannot
sustain that type of operation. Only the most fertile
land In the best locations can.
You see, we went from eighty percent agrarian
in the early days to the present eighty percent
metropolitan living, in the big centers of population.
Eighty percent of the population of the whole country
Is cramped up in these populous areas.
Feingold: Wasn t the argument made though that without the
limitation you d get very large ranchers who would
accumulate very large acreage and sort of get too
much of the advantage of the state water plan?
Spence: Well, yes. That was the argument made. But the query
is, under our system of free enterprise, If you
believe in it at all, if a man has large land holdings,
why should he be deprived of the rights to this water,
which is really something of common interest to all
the people and to all the land of the state? It s
a very delicate question. It s not a one-sided
question, by any means. The name Ivanhoe, when you
27
Spenoe:
Feingold!
Spence :
Feingold!
Spence :
Feingold!
Spence :
mentioned it, didn t strike me, but when I got to
thinking about it, that may have been the title of
one of the oases, or of the main case.
Yes. That was the case that went up to the Supreme
Court that was reversed. I was interested, because
I knew that you had been interested in water earlier.
Well, this is merely the apportionment of water,
this 160 acre phase. Of course I ve always been
interested in seeing this state develop its water
potential. We re finding now that maybe some of the
things we ve done are not too good, you know.
Well, you never know in the beginning.
Well, take the case of the delta here. We re Just
pulling the salinity of the sea up the delta by
reducing the amount of water in the delta. Some of
the water rights cases are very interesting. A case
I sat on in the Supreme Court had to do with the
lands down around San Diego. As they lowered the
water table, somehow or other the sea water seemed to
come in to replace the fresh. It s a very odd situa
tion. The percolating water law and the percolating
water situation in this state is very intriguing.
You mentioned when we were discussing the Municipal
Utility District Act, that as you look back on it
now, you re surprised that you got away with adding
all those other facilities under it. I wondered
what gave you the idea to put all those other things
in there in the first place.
I didn t personally put them in. They were put in
there no doubt by William Locke, and maybe the
Berkeley mayor, Louis Bartlett, and others. They
were very strong public ownership men. While I had
no objection to them being In there, I was surprised
they didn t get opposition from some of the utilities,
The State Bar Bill
Feingold: Yes. Well, moving on to some of the other things
that you did in the legislature, you mentioned the
State Bar Bill.
28
Spence: Well, the State Bar Bill was something that was
worked for over many years by the members of the bar.
It had been promoted by the old unofficial organiza
tion known as the California Bar Association, which
was not too big a group, but a group that met every
year, and took their work very seriously. They had
a legislative committee, and they proposed quite a
bit of legislation in the way of reform legislation
even before there was any State Bar or Judicial
Council. But It was done in a not too orderly or
comprehensive way. It was done Just because someone s
experience led him to believe that some situation
should be remedied. I added some of my own, more
particularly where I was endeavoring to cut down on
the time in various respects of Judicial proceedings.
The Judicial proceedings, and the timing in
our statutes was geared to the old horse and buggy
days, and geared to the days when they didn t have
typewriters, and when it took a tremendously long
time to put together a transcript on appeal and
copies, because it all had to be done by an amanuensis,
who wrote out in beautiful Spenoerian handwriting
the oral proceedings and copied all the documents
that were on file. You ll find all the old documents
In the recorder s office and the county clerk s office
were done with pen and ink.
Well, it took a long time to prepare things; it
took a long time to travel between points in the
state of California to the various county seats, and
the result was, for instance, you had six months to
appeal. Well, that was ridiculous after we got into
the modern age. On my own, I put in a bill that cut
that down to sixty days. Then I also cut down the
time for hearing and determining a motion for a new
trial.
Peingold: Was this for both criminal and civil procedure?
Spence: I m talking mainly of civil now, because there were
different rules concerning time in criminal cases.
But getting back to this question you asked me
about the State Bar. This voluntary association
which had done this work, and the legislative
programs of which I d assisted in handling was the
one who was driving for this so-called integrated
bar, or State Bar Act. A man in San Francisco by the
29
Spence: name of Joseph J. Webb, who was quite prominent in
the bar here, has been called the father of the
State Bar Aot, but if I were really attributing
the grandfathership to anybody, I think I d attribute
it to Jeremiah P. Sullivan, who was president of the
bar association here in San Francisco for a time, and
also president of the old California Bar Association.
Abortive attempts had been made in times gone
by to introduce some kind of a bill, but there was
never enough unanimity behind it, enough force
developed beforehand to get anywhere with any bill
until the 1925 session. The bill then introduced
was developed largely through the committee appointed
by Jeremiah P. Sullivan in the prior year in the old
California Bar Association, of which committee Joseph
Webb was chairman. It was promoted by a speech made
by Jeremiah P. Sullivan in the California Bar Associa
tion convention at Catalina in 1924.
Joseph Webb and his committee then went to work
in earnest. They had some outstanding men in
Southern California: Kemper Campbell, Leonard Slosson,
Thomas Ridgway, and others. Up here they had 0. K.
Cushinp;, Joseph Webb, Al Rosenshine, of the San
Francisco bar, all very enthusiastic about this bill.
We succeeded in having the legislature pass the
bill in 1925. I can t tell you who introduced the
bill. I think you ll probably find twenty to twenty-
five names on it, if I remember correctly. While we
had some opposition, It wasn t formidable. There are
a number of attorneys who like to feel quite independent,
and don t want to be under threat of disciplinary
action by fellow attorneys. That was one of the
difficulties prior to the State Bar Act. What was
everybody s business was nobody s business. There
were a great many men practicing law who should not
have been practicing law, because of having committed
improper acts, but no group was specifically charged
with the duty of filing disciplinary proceedings
against them.
So the State Bar was formed under this act. But
I m getting ahead. The 25 act went through the
legislature and it was vetoed by Governor Richardson.
He insisted that he wouldn t sign the bill unless he
was given the right to appoint the members of the
Board of Governors of the State Bar. Well, that would
30
Spence: have defeated the whole purpose of creating a self-
governing bar. His veto came after the session had
closed. It was so arranged by his friends In the
legislature that the bill didn t get to him until the
last ten days of the session, In which event a
governor has thirty days in which to pass on it. At
that time there was no provision for veto sessions
with respect to such bills.
The same bill was again introduced in 192?.
That was after I had left the legislature, but while
I was secretary to Governor Young. It was passed in
that session without much difficulty. We d gone
through most of the difficulty in the legislature at
the prior session, and the bill had plenty of favorable
votes. So it passed the legislature and Governor
Young signed it. It went into effect In about
September of 192?. I have in my file someplace my
first certificate as a member of the new State Bar
covering the time between September, 1927, when the
act went into effect, and the time of the first meeting
of the State Bar thereafter which I believe that year
was held in November. In the interim a commission
named in the act issued certificates to all attorneys.
The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was chairman
of the commission, and Andrew Y. Wood of the Recorder,
the legal publication, was secretary of the commission.
They signed the certificates.
Then, after the State Bar met in November, it set
up its own procedures and went forward. After that
time, the certificates of the members of the bar were
signed by the president and the secretary of the
State Bar. The State Bar made many reforms that are
probably worthy of note, but I ve taken an awful lot
of time talking about the State Bar.
Tax Reform
Feingold: What other measures did you support in the legislature?
You mentioned the King tax bill.
Spence: The King tax bill. Well, at that time, all state
money was raised through taxation of public utilities
on a gross receipts basis. That was the provision in
the constitution. Those public utilities were relieved
31
Spence: of looal taxation on their operative properties.
There was some sense to It because, for Instance,
how are you going to assess railroad cars locally
when they re moving around all the while?
The King tax bill was a bill to substantially
raise the tax rates on the utilities because even
then the state needed more money. It took a two-
thirds vote, under the constitution, to raise them.
That tax bill meant an increase in taxes for the
big utilities like the Southern Pacific and the
Pacific Gas and Electric, for instance, of about a
million or two per year, so they were very much
Interested in defeating it. It was with great
difficulty that it wound up with a two-thirds vote
of all the legislators. It was very strongly backed
by Governor Stephens and Clyde Seavey, his director
of finance. It was an administration bill. Most of
us were in favor of it, mainly because the state had
to get some more money; and it was shown that the
utilities were paying a smaller percentage a smaller
in lien tax on their properties as a result of this
gross receipts tax, in place of an ad valorem tax
than common property was.
Well, that bill was passed, and of course the
taxation story of this state is a very long one.
I ll only say that the whole scheme of taxation was
changed in about 1934 by what was known as the Relily-
Stewart amendment, that put all the utilities back
on the local rolls, where they still are, and brought
in the sales tax for state revenue. The sales tax
has been a tremendous provider of revenue, and it s
the main source of the revenue that the state raises
to support education, both higher education and the
common school education in the state.
Feingold: What was your role with the King tax bill?
Spence: What was my part of it? My part in it was I went up
there as a green, young legislator, and didn t know
anything about it. I didn t know it was coming up.
I went to every committee meeting, and studied very
assiduously, and finally came to the conclusion that
the administration was right on it. Then I helped
defeat any further delaying tactics on it and pressed
along with the rest of the group for the bill s
passage. I had no part in introducing the bill, or
being the prime handler of it.
32
Legal Reforms
Peingold: Are there any other measures that you had something
to do with in the legislature that you want to
mention?
Spence: Well, I had a district, fortunately, that didn t
make many demands on its legislator with respect to
local needs or local wants. The bills I championed
in the legislature if you want to use that word
were largely bills that did not draw any widespread
interest or attention. I think we did a lot of
improving of Judicial procedures by some of these
bills, largely by cutting down on the time permitted
for taking various steps.
Divorce cases, however, presented a rather
unique situation. It was my idea that if the hearings
on divorces had to be delayed until the parties had
a little cooling time, so-called, that there would be
a better chance for reconciliation than if they were
permitted to go to trial right away and then had to
wait a year after an interlocutory decree before a
final decree could be entered. I think I put in a
bill to that effect, but it was a very touchy subject
in those days!
We had quite some battles on the community
property bills up there around that time. I was not
in the forefront of that particularly, except to try
to keep things straight as best I could in the wild
efforts of some people to do things with the community
property laws. For Instance, for tax purposes they
wanted to get a wife to be said to have a half-interest
in community property, and yet they didn t want to
give her any control over it. The question was, how
to handle it without disrupting a husband s business
if a wife died and tried to will away her so-called
half of the community property.
Those questions were thrashed out. Oh, we got
along reasonably well, and did a fairly satisfactory
job, I guess, but the community property law is
inherited from the civil law, not the common law of
England. It came along with the Spanish and the
French influence here. The Spanish mainly. It has
its very definite merits. I believe it will be
adopted, or something comparable to it, throughout
33
Spence: the states as time goes on.
Feingold: Does that mean that the California community
property law is rather unique?
Spenoe: Well. Most states don t have a community property
law. Most states give the wife dower rights, as
provided in the common law but the wife really has
no interest in the property other than a limited
interest following the death of the husband.
LEGISLATIVE REAPPORTIONMENT, 1926
Peingold: After you served your three terms in the legislature,
then what did you do?
Spence: Well, I decided not to seek public office any more,
and to go back to devoting full time to practicing
law. During 1926, which is the year I did not run
for office, I took up during the last month and a
half before election, the handling of the state wide
campaign for the so-called federal plan of reapportion-
ment. We had stumbled through three legislative
sessions without any reapportlonment under the census
of 1920. We were having in California an experience
similar to that in Illinois, where Cook County had
the dominant number of legislators and even though
the rest of the state grew more rapidly, Cook County
simply blocked any reapportionment for many years.
This was an initiative measure. We hadn t been
able to settle upon any proposed constitutional
amendment in the legislature. This initiative measure
provided for the so-called federal plan of reapportion
ment. In the Senate, it provided for representation
on a basis other than that of population, somewhat
like the United States Senate where each state has
two senators no matter how populous the state is.
Nevada with a very small population has two senators,
Just the same as New York or California has.
Well, we were not going that far. We realized
it was somewhat different, but we provided that no
senatorial district would have more than three counties
in it. Interestingly enough, we re talking about
Earl Warren in spots here. Earl Warren was a very
active, helpful advocate of the federal plan of
reapportionment .
Peingold: He certainly stuck by that interest, didn t he?
35
Spenoe: Oh, no. That s the Interesting part of it. He was
a very strong advocate of this so-called federal
plan In California in 1926, but one of his decisions
in the United States Supreme Court that probably
caused as much flurry as any decision he wrote, was
his decision which was called the "one man - one vote"
decision, which meant that the states must apportion
representation in both their legislative houses on
the basis of population. In other words, every man
should have an equal voting power with every other
man, as represented in both houses of the legislature.
So rather than staying by his feeling then, after he
was on the United States Supreme Court, and after he d
surveyed the situation from a legal standpoint, it
was his determination that that should be the decision.
I don t agree with that decision, but I highly respect
many judges, even though I may not agree with all
their decisions.
Peingold: But back in those days Warren was supporting this
federal plan, then?
Spence: Earl Warren was a great help to me. I was running
the campaign, and he was a great help. We carried
every county of the state except Los Angeles, and we
got almost an even vote in Los Angeles. Los Angeles
then had over forty percent of the population of the
state in that one county, and there was over sixty
percent of the population of the state in the counties
south of the Tehachapi.
What that situation had previously meant was that
on all appropriations for highways, for example, the
south, which had a much smaller area and much less
need for roads than the north, could outvote the north
and take most of the highway appropriations. There
are practical phases in this situation that made a
lot of sense in that federal reapportionment plan.
The measure that we carried by initiative in 26
provided for a reapportionment commission to act in
the event the legislature failed to act. The
validity of such a provision is being tested in the
Supreme Court of the State at the present time.
Peingold: I see. So what happened after this 1926 election?
Spence: There was a very well-considered reapportionment of
the state by the legislature in 192?. Governor
Young asked me to be as helpful with the committees
36
Spence:
Peingold:
Spence:
Peingold:
Spence :
as I could in trying to carry out the principles of
the federal plan, and everybody accepted it at that
time. They had comparatively little difficulty in
drawing a reapportionment bill. Again, the
legislators probably figured that this reapportion
ment commission would take over and do the Job anyhow,
and that the legislators might as well work it out
themselves.
Could you describe briefly again the plan?
Under the old plan, both houses of the legislature
were elected on a population basis. There were
eighty members of the assembly and forty members of
the senate, so there was one senator in our state
legislature for every two assemblymen. That was
the old plan. All being elected on a population
basis, there was a concentration of legislative power
in the big populous areas, such as San Francisco and
Los Angeles, although actually the southern part of
the state alone had drawn such a tremendous growth in
population that it could have commanded anything It
wanted in the way of legislation. It could have Just
outvoted the north completely, if we had stayed on
that old plan.
What was the new plan?
plan.
You Just described the old
Well, the new plan, instead of having the senate on
a strictly apportioned population basis, recognized
we might say, the fact that agriculture, mining,
forestry, and other varying interests in the great
wide open areas of the state were entitled to more
representation than they would get by apportionment
of both houses on a strictly population basis.
Therefore, the senate, under the new federal plan
was apportioned so that no county had more than one
senator, and no senator had a district comprising
more than three counties. Between those two extremes
it was worked out in a fairly equitable manner in the
1927 reapportionment bill. That was substantially
the difference. I don t know whether that makes it
clear or not.
Peingold: That s pretty clear.
37
SUPERIOR COURT OP AIAMEDA. COUNTY, 1927-1930
Peingold: After this election was over, did you return to
your private law practice?
Spence: I was in my law practice all the while. Of course
I handled my practice from my own office, although
I had a separate office here in San Francisco that
I rented for the campaign. Established a separate
staff, had quite a staff there. After the campaign
I did endeavor to return to my private law practice.
But Governor Young had no sooner been elected,
in 1926 than he asked me if I would come up as his
secretary. He wanted someone who had had close
contacts with the legislature, someone in whom he
had faith and confidence. Well, I thanked him for
the very fine compliment, but I told him I Just
couldn t think of it. Well, anyhow, the upshot of
the thing was, he pressed pretty hard on it, and I
finally told him that I would come up there, but
stay only through the legislative session, and the
bill-signing period, and I was coming back definitely
right afterwards.
I did go up there. After the bill-signing
period was over and it was one of the busiest times
of my life I was out at his home having dinner with
him one night, and I said, "Well, Governor, you
remember our understanding. I m due to leave now."
He said, "Well, if you re going to leave me, I want
you to go back as a Judge," which was his way of
saying he was ready to appoint me to fill a vacancy
on the superior court of Alameda County. Well, I was
thirty-six years of age, and flattered by his
confidence, and had always had leanings toward being
a Judge sometime in my life. You have to go along
when opportunity knocks, so I accepted it. After I
accepted it, he said, "Well now, I ll want you to
stay with me a little longer. I ve got a few matters
38
Spence:
Feingold:
Spence:
I d like to have your help on." So I stayed a few
weeks longer.
I went down and was sworn In on October jTd. of
1927 as a superior oourt Judge In Alameda County.
So that put you back in Alameda County when Earl
Warren was a district attorney.
That s right. Earl had become district attorney in
25.
Feingold: I m sure that he tried cases in your court.
Spence: He did. Earl was a very active district attorney,
not only in administering his office, but also in
trying some of the more difficult cases.
Yachting Bandits Case
Feingold: What were some of the cases he tried in your court?
Spence: Well, one of the more spectacular was the Sampsell
and McNabb case, the so-called yachting bandit case,
where these fellows sailed out of Seattle in the
yacht Sovereign. They came down with credentials
they d gotten somehow, made their way to the St. Francis
Yacht Club, obtained guest cards and kept their yacht
there. They apparently led a very respectable life
aboard the yacht, but they also took an apartment up
town. Sampsell and McNabb operated out of the
apartment in robbing banks. The particular offense
for which they were convicted before me, with Earl
trying the case, was the robbery of I think it was
the First National of Berkeley. It was a Berkeley
bank , anyhow.
These fellows had terrible criminal records
behind them. Sampsell was an interesting fellow.
Both of them were interesting. Sampsell was one of
the most convincing liars on the stand that I had ever
seen. He did more to bring sympathy from a jury than
any crook I have ever known. Very smooth, and very
sweet dispositioned, apparently, as he put on his
charm. But McNabb was Just the opposite. He was mean
and ill-tempered. Finally on devastating cross-
39
Spence: examination he said, "I don t want to answer any
more questions." Earl said* "That s all," and let
him go.
But afterwards, I think I mentioned to you,
McNabb fashioned a gun while in San Quentin and
shot it out trying to make an escape out of San
Quentin. Prior to that time, both he and Sampsell
had disappeared I think for twenty-six days inside
the prison walls. They found them under the floor
in the kitchen. Sombody had been passing food down
to them. Sampsell was then transferred to Polsom.
Oh, I might say that in that later shoot-out, which
I mentioned, when McNabb tried to escape, he was
killed.
Sampsell, contrary to my recommendation, and
despite the terrible record he had, was paroled
finally. He got down to San Diego, and he killed
somebody in a bank robbery down there. He was charged
with murder and convicted of murder. I was on the
Supreme Court at the time. I got a letter from him
while he was at San Quentin saying that he thought
because I had tried the original cases in Alameda
County, I was probably disqualified on his appeal.
Of course I was not technically disqualified but I
never wanted any man whose life was at stake to feel
any doubt about the qualification of the men judging
him. I just suggested to the Chief Justice that he
put somebody in my place on the day that the Sampsell
case was to be heard. Justice Maurice T. Dooling
went in my place. I fortunately never had a formal
claim of disqualification made against me in any
case during my entire judicial service.
Feingold: That s a very impressive record.
Spence: Well, it would be more impressive if it happened today
than it was then, because the challenges for dis
qualification were not so frequent then.
The Miller Forgery Case
Feingold: You also mentioned another case involving a forgery
with a defendant named Miller.
Spence: Well, the Miller case to me evidenced the fine, high
principles under which Earl Warren worked. Miller
was convicted in my court by a Jury of forgery. Two
witnesses identified him as the person who had cashed
the check. When he was arrested, he had confessed.
So with those identifications and the confession,
the jury didn t take long to convict him. I might
say that he explained his confession on the ground
that he only made a confession because he wanted to
get some specific charge made against him so the bail
could be fixed and he could get out on bail, which
was an explanation which didn t appeal very much to
the Jury.
Anyhow, Earl got suspicious of this through
some means and had an idea that another man who was
then in custody was the man who had committed that
offense. Well, he engaged Heinrich, a handwriting
expert, to examine the handwriting. There was no doubt
in Heinrich s mind that this was not Miller s hand
writing. On the motion for a new trial, Earl revealed
these facts to the defendant s attorney, and told him
he could use Heinrich. Heinrich went on the stand
and testified. Earl made no objection to the granting
of a new trial. As a matter of fact, I think he
Joined in the motion, in the request that it be
granted.
He and the counsel for Miller then agreed that
I could retry the case forthwith without a Jury.
Earl simply said. "We ll offer no testimony on this
retrial." Counsel for Miller then said, "We rest."
Whereupon I stated, "I find the defendant not guilty."
This was a most unusual situation. It s almost
unheard of for a district attorney to look for
evidence favorable to a defendant who had Just been
convicted. I thought it showed very convincing
evidence of the high principles on which Earl
conducted the office of district attorney.
Impressions of Distrlot Attorney Earl Warren
Feingold: What were your general impressions of the way Warren
operated in court?
Spence: Well, he was a very able man in court, in my opinion.
He was a man who showed deference to the court,
deference to counsel on the opposite side, deference
to the Jury, and conducted himself according to the
highest traditions of the legal profession, while
doing an excellent Job. I ve always thought, and I
always went on the principle, when I tried Jury cases
myself as an attorney, that nothing would impress
more than sincerity on the part of an attorney. I
think I won many cases because of demonstrated
sincerity in the presentation. Earl made a very fine
impression in that regard. He appeared to be entirely
sincere in everything he did. It was pretty hard for
a Jury to ever feel that Earl was misrepresenting
anything or was urging the correctness of testimony
that he felt in his heart was not true.
Peingold: One of the things that Interested me in your saying
that in the legislature you had brought some bills
that had to do with reforms of procedure, is that
that s one of the things that Warren is noted for as
district attorney. He speeded up procedure,
mostly criminal trials.
Spence: Well, let me say that Just before I went into the
criminal department, I think it was 1928 I didn t go
into the criminal department until January of 1929
in 1928, a constitutional amendment had been passed
permitting defendants to waive a Jury. I think it s
been noted I saw it noted somewhere that Earl and
the public defender over there,* had agreed that they
would waive a Jury in any case in which they were
opposing counsel. I think after I was on the bench
there, I tried at least twenty-five percent of the
oases without a Jury, because it was not only the
public defender, but others also waived, knowing the
district attorney would waive. Of course, it was also
necessary for the accused to personally consent.
*Willard Shea. See Willard Shea: Recollections of
Alameda County s First Public Defender, an interview
conducted by the Regional Oral History Office.
Criminal Procedure
Feingold: I have some general questions about criminal
procedure In those years. I m very Interested In
what the rules were at the time governing admissl-
billty of evidence.
Spence: My dear lady, there are volumes written on that!
Let me say, I think from the questions I saw that
you had Jotted down that what you re Interested in
is the difference, if any, between the rules then
protecting the defendant, as against the rules more
recently established while Earl was on the Supreme
Court of the United States, in the protection of the
defendant .
Well, let me say that the United States Supreme
Court under Earl Warren, went very far, probably
farther than most members of the bar would be
inclined to go, In protecting the defendant. Overly
protective, perhaps, in the eyes of most people. But
don t think that at the time that Earl was district
attorney the law didn t have concern for the protection
of the defendants. No word about a confession could
ever come in evidence unless it was first shown and
the questions asked directly, and the defendant given
a chance to cross-examine as to whether the confession
was given under circumstances which made it entirely
voluntary. If there was any dispute about it,
evidence was taken on the subject before the confession
was admitted.
The rules were sufficiently protective at that
time in the eyes of most people, and I think probably
a majority of the members of the bar feel that the
Supreme Court of the United States under Earl Warren
was a little overly protective, that they leaned
over backward a little further than they should have.
Feingold: What about the question of the defendant s right to
counsel? I know in that period the Legal Aid Society
was first established.
Spence: Well, of course you must keep two things in mind.
First, most of the large counties, including Alameda
County, had then, and still have, public defenders.
Such large counties, as well as several others, also
have had Legal Aid Societies for many years. And
second, even in counties having neither public
Spenoe: defenders or Legal Aid Societies , no defendant was
ever required to stand trial, at least in a felony
case, without counsel, if he desired counsel. The
court would appoint counsel for defendant, whose
duty it was to represent the defendant without
compensation. It was only about twenty years ago
that the statutes of this state were amended to
allow such appointed counsel reasonable compensation
to be paid from public funds.
Bail. Probation, and Parole
Peingold: Well, what were the rules in the twenties about
setting bail? And let me say that I m interested
in this because Warren was involved in breaking up
a scandal that involved bail bonds very early in his
career.
Spence: That s right. It was before I was on the court that
he was involved in that. Well, let me say that the
rules for setting bail were more a matter of concern
with the Justice s court than with the superior
Court, because the only cases, the criminal cases,
that came directly to the superior court were the
ones that were brought in by the grand Jury by
indictment. The ordinary case was brought into the
Justice s court by way of a complaint, and a
preliminary hearing was held at which the Justice
decided whether the man should be held to answer.
If he decided he should be held to answer, an
information was filed it was called an information
rather than an indictment an information was filed
by the district attorney.
Now, at the start, when a person was arrested,
in the average case which was handled through the
Justice s court, the bail was fixed in the Justice s
court. Prom time immemorial, the bail has been
furnished for these people who haven t good standing
in the community, by bail bond brokers. They charge
ten percent, or did charge ten percent or more of
the amount of the bail. Well, when you consider the
risk they took, and the amount of time they put in
trying to find these fellows and incidentally they
were very helpful in finding them when they Jumped
bail. I don t think there was too much abuse of the
bail situation.
Spence: If a person s dangerous to society, you might
say, bail s a pretty good thing. And sometimes
bail s fixed very high, if it s believed a person
is a menace to society and should not be at large.
Now, in the Angela Davis case now pending, there s
no bail figure there now. In the Angela Davis case,
they denied bail, because in a criminal case, you re
ordinarily entitled to bail except in a death penalty
case. I don t recall the wording of the statute,
but where the evidence is very great as to the guilt,
or quite convincing. It was felt in the Angela Davis
case that because of certain facts which are practically
admitted that the evidence against her is great in
connection with her complicity in those murders.
But I don t know whether I ve answered what
you re after on this bail matter.
Feingold: Perhaps you didn t know this, since you didn t serve
in the municipal courts yourself, but how would a
Judge know, when a bank robber was brought in or
something, how would he know what kind of bail to set?
Spence: Well, usually, in the ordinary case, other than
murder cases, it was more or less a matter of fixing
a schedule for various offenses. Of course those
Justices fixed the amounts more often for misdemeanor
oases than they did the felony cases, because
misdemeanors were the main things they handled. But
they fixed them in felony cases too. But they were
fixed pretty generally, and unless there were a lot
of counts, and a man had a bad record, and was some
body who they felt would probably run out if he could,
the ordinary bail fixed was quite easy to determine.
The courts used to more or less agree on a schedule.
The Judges informally would do it. Of course they
could raise the bail in any particular case, or they
could reduce the bail in any case, if they- found
good reason.
I had a fellow one of the most successful
probation cases I ever handled. I haven t run into
the fellow the last few years, but I used to run into
him quite often. After he was convicted of forgery,
I didn t even commit him Immediately to await sentence
or probation. I gave him probation when the time
came. I let him stay out without ball. He had a
family of half a dozen children, and he was a steady
worker. His was one of the most successful bail
Spence: situations I ever dealt with, In that I treated him
differently and more leniently than most people are
ever treated, and he was allowed to be loose after
conviction by the Jury after the verdict was In. I
put him on probation, and I had known pretty well
that I was going to put him on probation, from the
reports I d had previously.
Now, speaking of Warren, and speaking of
criminal procedures, I ll tell you a most interesting
situation. I won t mention the names of these men,
because they re reputable citizens now, but when Earl
was district attorney, these two men, two boys, you
might say one was just over twenty-one and one was
just under twenty-one were charged with burglary.
They were students at the University of Redlands.
They had come up here for Christmas. They had in
the back of their car firearms and things that they
presumably had brought with the idea of committing an
offense. They wanted money, and they were going to
burglarize the floral shop of the father of a
Japanese who was a fellow student of theirs at
Redlands. There were three of them to start with,
and they were caught in the act. There was a chase
and a shoot-out over the rooftops, in which the third
young man was killed.
Well, these two other young men came before me
and were convicted. I couldn t send the older one to
Preston because he was over twenty-one. As a matter
of fact, the younger one was more of the ringleader
than the other. Having been armed, there was no
option in it. Anyhow, I sentenced them to San Quentin.
Well, after they d been over there about a year, it
bothered me somewhat, and Earl too, because we thought
they were pretty good young subjects for rehabilitation.
Earl and I went out and worked for their early release.
We got them released on parole. When I later was
about to go around the Panama Canal, in 1933> I
received just before my departure invitations from
both of them to attend their graduation at the
University of Southern California. It was very heart
warming to know that these two young men had made
good. One of them is a petroleum engineer and the
other is a dentist. They re both quite prosperous in
Southern California. But it does show that if you
wisely use probation or parole, there is a real
possibility of rehabilitation.
Spenoe: As a matter of faot, we don t conceive of most
felony offenders being put away for life. We feel
that they, most of them, are going to come back into
society, and about eighty percent or more do come
back into society. Well, the question is, what s
best for those people and for society, if you re
going to try to rehabilitate them, and bring them
baok into society? Isn t it best to get them out in
a reasonable time, provided they appear to be
reasonable risks for probation or parole?
I was supposed to be the soft one on probation
in the court in Alameda County, because the man
sitting opposite me, Judge Fred Wood, was very tough.
He liked to be known as the tough judge in his
criminal department. Just for my own information I
checked up for the year 1929 and I had sent ninety-
six men to state prison. I also checked up on the
San Francisco record, where they had three criminal
departments, and I, the soft man in our county, had
sent more men to state prison in 1929 than all three
departments in San Francisco had sent in that year.
Feingold: That s very interesting. Were they using probation
and parole more over here?
Spence: Oh yes. Much more in San Francisco than in Alameda
County. In those days nobody seemed to complain
about a Judge who was over-lenient. One certainly
had to draw the line some place, and I think I had
it pretty logically drawn when I was on the criminal
court. At least I like to think I did.
Feingold: What were your opinions about the indeterminate
sentence law?
Spence: Well, I think the indeterminate sentence law is the
only kind of a law that s defensible at all. It
gives a board much more time to find out a man s
past record, and to learn how he reacts in prison,
which is also important, before they set the term.
And furthermore, one of the bad parts of having the
old system, other than the indeterminate sentence
law, was that there is a terrific difference in the
attitude of judges. You would get greatly differing
sentences, which caused very hard feeling among
people who perhaps deserved about the same sentence.
One would get fifty years, and one would get one year,
Spenoe: Well, there was a lot of feeling about a situation
of that kindl I f
m very strong for the Indeterminate
sentence law.
The California Judicial Council
Peingold: Were you familiar with the work of the Judicial
Council during those years when you were on the
court?
Spence: Yes, I was fairly familiar with it. That was a
constitutional amendment put through largely through
the work of the old California Bar Association, the
voluntary association. After I was on the District
Court of Appeal over here or I may have been still
on the superior court the Judicial Council faced a
proposed constitutional amendment in the legislature
to abolish it before it had hardly gotten underway
with its work. One gentleman who was an ardent
advocate of several innovations had taken it upon
himself to become the working force that traveled
about the state, trying to get the Judicial Council
innovations into operation. He evidently made himself
quite obnoTlous to a great many people, including
Judges, county clerks, and members of the bar. His
overzealous efforts had created considerable adverse
reaction to the Judicial Council.
Chief Justice Waste asked me to go up to the
legislature with him. The Judicial Council had asked
him to go up and appear before the committee against
this proposed amendment. I went up to keep him
company more than anything else and to give him a
little backing as we knew of the strong adverse
feeling. Of course he was chairman of the Judicial
Council, as Chief Justice. I must say that the way
the legislative committee treated the Chief Justice
was shameful. No matter what they might have thought
of the Judicial Council, or of his work as chairman
of the Judicial Council, a certain amount of deference
should have been shown to his office. He was a very
mild-mannered, likeable man, and incidentally, quite
an active man in the life of the University of
California as a loyal alumnus. He lived in Berkeley.
He didn t deserve what they did to him up there.
Spenoe: There was nothing I could do about it, except to try
to throw a little oil on troubled waters. But of
course I was a target too, naturally, as I was
defending the idea of retaining the Judicial Council.
Peingold: What were the major things that the Council was
working on then?
Spence: Well, one of the things that the Judicial Council
did at the start was to get statistics, set up a
system for getting statistics in a uniform fashion
from all the courts of the state. It made a lot of
work for the county clerks and the Judges, some of
whom didn t like to work very much, and didn t care
to see statistics on how much work had, or had not
been, done.
Peingold: Is that why the legislative committee wanted this
constitutional amendment abolishing the Judicial
Council?
Spence: It s why the people who proposed the amendment did
propose it, and why a number of the members of the
legislature favored the amendment. The amendment
did not succeed in the legislature. Of course it
takes a two thirds vote on a constitutional amendment.
The dissatisfaction with the Judicial Council was
largely caused by the officiousness of this repre
sentative of the Judicial Council whose conduct was
resented by many public officials and members of the
bar as well.
DISTRICT COURT OP APPEAL, 1930-19^5
Feingold: Well, then, let s move on to your appointment to
the District Court of Appeal.
Spence: Well, I was appointed by Governor Young to the
District Court of Appeal. He was, incidentally, a
great man in the life of the University of California,
as you probably know, and a Berkeley resident for
many years. He had been a teacher at Lowell High
School for some time. I don t know whether you re
familiar with Galey and Young s English Poetry Its
Principles and Progress? Well, he s the Young of
Galey and Young s English Poetry- Its Principles and
Progress, first published in 190^. He was afterwards
with Mason McDuffie and with the Berkeley Building
and Loan Association. He was very active at getting
the Building and Loan Association going.
He was in the legislature, and had been speaker
of the assembly. Then he was elected lieutenant
governor.
Peingold: And so he appointed you to the court in 1930?
Spence: March, 1930. If I d been planning my judicial
career, I would have liked a little more time on the
trial court, but you can t plan those things. When
opportunity knocks, you have to move.
Peingold: Was it while you were on the District Court of Appeal
that Max Radin was suggested for the vacant seat on
the State Supreme Court?
Spence: Yes.
Peingold: And I believe Warren at that point was attorney
general, and he was therefore on the Qualifications
Commission.
Spence: Let s see. Earl became attorney general in 1938.
50
Spence: It was one of the first problems that faced Earl, I
think, after he became attorney general.
Peingold: Did you discuss that problem with him much, about
Max Radin?
Spence: I didn t discuss it much with him because he knew
Max Radin better than I did. But I was very close
to Earl at that time, and we discussed all kinds of
problems, such as how his office should be run as
attorney general and the qualifications of Judges
up for confirmation. We had a very close relation
ship and saw each other quite often. The Badin
matter came up, and Earl Warren and Presiding Justice
Nourse of my division of the District Court of Appeal
were both against Max Badin 1
s confirmation. Chief
Justice Gibson was the third member of the then so-
called Qualification Commission and he alone favored
confirmation. Of course he had served as director
of finance under Governor Olson, and Governor Olson
appointed Max Radin, or named him, but the majority
of the commission opposed his confirmation. That s
the time that Justice Traynor was appointed to fill
the vacancy that Max Radin would have filled if
confirmed. I ve forgotten how the vacancy came about,
Oakland Tribune Case
Peingold: You mentioned the other day when we were at lunch
that while you were on the District Court of Appeal
you had a little something to do with the Oakland
Tribune and the settlement of some estate.
Spence: Well, that s a long story, and I have a large file
on it. We had a character in Oakland by the name
of Phil Riley who used to love to pick on Earl Warren,
as well as everybody else in public office.
Peingold: Well, he picked on you too, didn t he?
Spence: Oh yes. Well, he certainly did. Let me say, this
was in the depression time. In the Dargie estate,
they had to raise money. Two Dargies had been the
original owners of the Tribune . When the second of
these Dargies passed away, his widow was his main
heir and beneficiary. The Dargies then only owned
51
Spenoe: ^9 percent of the stock of the Oakland Tribune
Publishing Company, which company was encumbered
with mortgages and other obligations. They had the
big building, with a mortgage on it, I guess.
At any rate, in the depression time, and
particularly this being a minority stock interest,
it was very hard to get any bids on it. A man by the
name of Sheldon Sackett, who d been in the publishing
business up in Oregon, came down here and he wanted
to get himself established in the newspaper business
in this area. He thought this was a good opportunity
to get in and try to get control of the Oakland
Tribune .
When this stock was put up for sale by the
executors of the Dargie estate, the Knowlands bid
$300,000 odd for this ty) percent interest of the
stock. I ve forgotten the exact figure. It compared
very favorably with the value at which it was
appraised in the estate. There was nobody else in
sight to pay any more, except there was a suggestion
by this fellow Sackett, through his attorney, and a
Captain Martin.
Now, Captain Martin was a very dapper, Spanish
gentleman. I believe he d been in the Spanish army.
He was a very great favorite to Mrs. Dargie. Captain
Martin was objecting to this sale to the Knowlands,
because he was trying to get all the money he could
into the Dargie till, and thought they might get more.
Sackett and Martin suggested that there was some
bidder someplace who would pay a million dollars.
But upon questioning, it was found that the condition
of this so-called bidder would be that he d get
control of the Tribune which would mean that he
would have to get 51 percent of the stock, and the
executors had no way of getting 51 percent, because
the Knowlands weren t willing to sacrifice control
just for the convenience of Captain Martin and
Sheldon Sackett.
Well, anyhow, Judge Allen continued the matter
several times to give them the chance to obtain a
firm bid exceeding the amount the Knowlands had bid.
They never produced such a bid. Judge Allen finally
affirmed this sale of the stock to the Knowlands.
The case came before us in the District Court of
Appeal, and I wrote the opinion affirming Judge Allen,
Spenoe: confirming the sale. They asked for a hearing In
the Supreme Court. I was from time to time serving
p_ro tern on the Supreme Court by assignment, because
of sickness or death or disqualification. When
their petition for hearing came before the Supreme
Court, I Just said, "Well, gentlemen, this case
comes out of my division of the District Court of
Appeal. I therefore bow out and 1*11 see you
tomorrow." The Supreme Court denied a hearing.
Phil Rlley attacked In his Free Press paper,
Judge Allen, myself as the writer of the opinion,
and the Supreme Court for denying hearing, and
further said that I had sat on the Supreme Court,
and voted to sustain my own opinion on the District
Court of Appeal, by voting against a hearing by the
Supreme Court. Well, of course that was entirely
untrue, but what should a Judge do In such situations?
Nobody paid much attention to Phil Rlley, but Time
magazine somehow picked this up, and it published an
article substantially using Phil Riley s words.
Then Harold Ickes, who was against anybody who d ever
been a Republican and who was a very staunch
Democrat himself he called himself "the old
curmudgeon" which he was, no doubt wrote a book
called America s House of Lords In which he listed
the Gannet chain, the Hearst chain, and Knowland s
paper and others, as the "House of Lords" of America.
It was his thesis that this "House of Lords" ran
everything and controlled all legislative bodies and
all the courts and everything else. It s really an
amazing book. I don t know anybody who s ever read
it. I never dignified it by buying a copy, but before
publication I had a copy of what had been written
about the Dargle case. I had exhibited it to the
members of the Supreme Court.
Justice Carter, of the Supreme Court, went over
the Dargie case very carefully. He was an outstanding
Democrat here who had participated In the Supreme
Court decision. I d gotten an advance copy through
somebody. Justice Carter wired Ickes and told him
that he thought the story was erroneous; that I
certainly had not participated in that matter while
I was sitting pro tern on the Supreme Court, and that
at any rate, he d gone over the case including my
opinion, and he didn t see how any other result
could have been reached.
53
Spence: Well, Ickes responded by putting a footnote
In the book and simply said that he understood that
Justice S pence denied that he d participated in the
matter in the Supreme Court. I wished he d left
that out I
Peingold: That s right. That makes you look worse than ever.
Spence: It looks like that s all I denied! But anyhow, you
asked me about it, I have tried to tell you about it.
Peingold: I thought that was a very interesting story, because
we ve gotten pieces of it. Our office has interviewed
Joe Knowland.
Spence: Oh, it has?
Peingold: Yes.
CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT, 19^5-1960
Peingold:
Spence :
Peingold:
Spence:
Peingold:
Spence:
Now, getting back to the District Court, how long
were you on the court?
I was on there fifteen years.
Fifteen years? So that was 19^5 that you were
appointed to the Supreme Court. By that time Warren
was governor. Were you fairly close to Warren
through those years on the Court of Appeal?
Yes. Of course he became governor in ^2. He was
elected in ^2. The vacancy I filled came through
the retirement of Justice Jesse W. Curtis. He
retired and went back to San Bernardino, which was
his old stomping ground. Earl appointed me in his
place, and I think I told you it was the only appoint
ment to the Supreme Court that Earl had a chance to
make in the eleven years he was governor.
Yes.
53-
He went to the United States Supreme Court in
So that was about ten years.
About eleven years. It was the only chance he had
to make a single appointment on the California
Supreme Court. I feel very fortunate having gotten
it. I will say that I never talked to him about it
55
Spence: in any way, and I never talked to Governor Young
about any Judicial appointment for myself. I never
let anybody write any letters if I could prevent it.
Peingold: We were talking before about the correctional system,
and I know that Warren as governor made quite a few
reforms in the prison system, the Board of Prison
Terms and Paroles, and I wondered what you thought
of his reforms.
Spence: Well, I don t know Just what you refer to there.
There is a certain limit to the governor s powers,
at least there were then, of doing anything about
the correctional system except through legislation.
I can t offhand tell you what legislation he may
have put through
Feingold: Yes. Unfortunately, I can t tell you either, because
it s out of my range.
Spence: Well, let me say this. I think that most anything
that he had done, he had done while district attorney
and while attorney general. I don t recall much
correctional legislation that he fostered as governor.
I do know he put Walter Gordon on as, I think he was
the chairman of the Board of Prison Terms and Paroles,
wasn t he? And Walter did a good Job there. An
excellent Job. I guess you remember he was a football
coach out at California.
Peingold: Yes. One of my colleagues is interviewing him.
Spence: Well, he knows the governor very, very well. He was
very close to him because he served in his executive
work, you know. Earl was always seeking to do what
he could in reforms. Earl was always very strong for
increasing the rehabilitation emphasis in connection
with prisoners, which is very fine. But his powers
with respect to Just what he could do as governor,
except through the legislature or by making good
appointments, was relatively limited.
Governor Young put Charlie Neumiller back in as
chairman of the Board of Prison Directors back in
1927, when he d been dropped by Governor Richardson.
Charlie Neumiller was quite an interesting and able
fellow, a Stockton attorney.
Peingold: Well, I ve come to the end of what I wanted to ask
Feingold:
Spence :
Feingold!
Spence :
Feingold. !
Spence:
you, except if you have anything more to say about
any cases that you handled
Well, there were lots of interesting oases. Every
case, to me, was an interesting case. Some were
more in the public eye than others. For instance,
the Chessman case was probably in the public eye
than any other case.
Oh, you sat on that case?
Yes. The very vital part of it was when he was
applying for clemency to Governor Brown, and
Governor Brown was inclined to give it, but you see,
Chessman having had prior convictions had to have
the recommendation of a majority of the members of
the Supreme Court, under the constitution, before
the governor could act. Three of them favored
recommending clemency for Chessman, but four were
required. In the Chessman case I said to my
colleagues, "If Chessman is granted clemency, no
other man should ever suffer the death penalty in
California." I m not too sure that the death penalty
is right or correctly handled at the present time,
but I will say that up to now I haven t seen any
way of getting away from it. I took upon it as a
sort of a necessary evil, that we must tolerate,
because what are you going to do with a man who is
Jailed for life and then kills a guard in the
penitentiary? He had nothing to lose by trying
anything he can, killing anybody he can, and trying
to make his way out. So the death penalty would
almost have to be retained for certain cases, I think.
I guess that s a question the California Supreme
Court is deciding right now.
The United States Supreme Court is now deciding the
question of whether under the modern view of the
courts the extreme penalty constitutes cruel and
unusual punishment under the federal constitution.
They haven t come down with a decision, but the same
or a somewhat similar question is before the California
Supreme Court.
I understand our Supreme Court is going ahead
with decision of the question, not awaiting the
decision of the United States Supreme Court. The
courts were full of very interesting cases while I
57
Spenoe: was on there. Of course every murder case presents
a tragic situation, which commands public attention.
I think one of the most interesting experiences any
Judge ever has Is when some poor devil comes up
before him and pleads guilty to murder. He thereby
says, in effect, "Here, Judge, I leave it to you
to hear what evidence may be presented and then you
fix the degree and tell me whether I live or die."
I want to tell you, it gives a Judge a little
emotional pull, when some poor fellow stands before
you and practically says, "I leave it entirely to
you."
Felngold: I put my life in your hands!
Spence: That s right. That s Just what he says. And
practically all the drama and all the human interest
that a Judge encounters is on the trial court. Up
above we get many terrifically interesting cases.
For instance, I wrote a series of oases on the welfare
amendment which had to do with interpreting what was
exempt from taxation under the welfare constitutional
amendment passed about 19*t4. The legislation, I
think, went through in ^5 Implementing it, purporting
to exempt all religious, hospital, and charitable
organizations from taxation on property used
exclusively for religious, hospital or charitable
purposes. There were some terrifically interesting
questions presented by a line of oases. One of the
lead-off cases was that of the Cedars of Lebanon
hospital in Los Angeles. Others involved were the
Serra Retreat, a religious activity, and also the
Frederica Home, which was an old people s home. The
YMCA was in there too.
The questions involved were questions like: how
about tennis courts used by the staff and perhaps
patients of a hospital? Are they used exclusively
for hospital purposes? How about nurses homes in
connection with hospitals? And as to the YMGA s,
if they have a cafeteria and let the public come in,
is that part of the building exempt from taxation?
Well, there were six cases, with about six counts
In each of them. I want to tell you, writing those
six cases took a lot out of me, Just before I left
for my summer vacation. But they were very interesting
cases.
53
dpenoe: One of the late oases I wrote, was one involving
sales taxes, where there was a state sales tax,
oounty sales tax, and olty sales tax. This shopping
area came in and planted itself right down on the
dividing line between two counties, and two cities,
and the line, the boundary line, went right through
some of the departments of the department store!
Peingold: Oh, and you had to decide what county
Spence: Who got the sales tax, you see. It was really very
interesting.
Peingold: We re running out of tape, and I wondered, just as
a summing up thing, if you wanted to make a sort of
general evaluation of Earl Warren s career?
Spence: Are we at the end of this?
Feingold: Yes, Just about. We have about a minute and a half.
Spenoe: I wanted to say something when we started the tape
the other day, you asked me some general questions
about this great era in which we live. Well, as I
said, it was one of the most interesting and intriguing
eras that anyone ever lived in. Of course there was
more excitement, perhaps, in the pioneering days.
Life had settled down a bit in this century. What
we re having today in the way of uprisings and shouts
of revolution, and a bombing now and then, often
seems to be repetitive of times gone by. For instance,
the Times bombing. The Los Angeles Times bombing,
way back in the early part of the century
Peingold: McNamara brothers.
Spence: Yes. That prosecution People against Schmidt is
one of the prosecutions in that case that got up in
the high courts. But the point is that we had the
IWW s, the so-called Wobblies during that time. We
had many wild radical ideas brought forth during the
depression time. Well, again in the depression time
we had the waterfront strike here in 193^- So this
matter of ups and downs, revolutions, and revolutionary
tendencies is not new. It all goes back to the fact,
in my mind, that every excess one way or the other
invites its reaction. We re retreating now, for
instance, on the campus disturbances, perhaps. Well,
we still have trouble at Stanford in this Professor
59
Spenoe: Franklin affair. But this is Just random thinking
that I am putting into words at the end here.
While this was truly an interesting and
intriguing era, it wasn t free from tremendous
difficulties and other problems including two
devastating world wars, and when the full story of
this unusual era is told, I believe that Earl Warren
will be recognized as one of the outstanding figures
of his time.
Transcriber: Jane West
Final Typist: Kay Sugimoto
PPSNDIX i
60
INTERVIEW WITH THE HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCE
INTERVIEWER - KENNETH M. JOHNSON
Johnson -
Judge Snence, let mo reci 4 a few basic fact-"" -.hoi-.t you
for the record and if I am wrong please interrupt inc. I
believe you were born in San Francisco on March 15, 1891,
that shortly thereafter your fanily and you, yourself,
.uoved to Alameda County. Is that correct?
Justice Spence - That is correct as far as it goes. Let me add that
after living in Alameda for about one year (1893-1894) , we
moved to San Jose for six years (1894-1900), then back to
San Francisco for two years (1900-1902) and then back to
Alameda County where I have resided continuously since 1902.
Johnson - I understand also that you went to both Stanford University
and Stanford Law School and received an AB Degree in 1913 and
a J.D. (Juris Doctor) Degree in 1915.
Justice Spence - Correct.
Johnson -
Now, Judge, I also understand practically immediately after
your graduation from law school you went into the Army and
World War I was, of course, going full blast then. Can you
tell us some of your wartime experiences? Where did you
serve, and what did you do?
Justice Spence - Well, I served in the Field Artillery most of- the
time, but had enlisted in May, 1917, shortly after the
declaration of war, in the Tenth Company of the Coast
Artillery here in San Francisco after missing the final day
for application to the First Officers Training Ccimp. We
were called into active service at Fort Scott in early
August of 1917 and by the end of August, I had been recom
mended, for admission to the Second Officers Training Camp.
We finished our training and were commissioned at the
Presidio in San Francisco in November 1917 and I immediately
received orders to report directly to France as a Casual
Officer, meaning an officer not attached to any particular
unit of troops at the moment. I went to France and started
my experience over there with the French School of Artillery
Instruction in Saumur, France which v/as normally a French
School of Cavalry, down on the Loire River. We were there
three months under French instructors and then I was up on
the front with the French Sixth Army Corps during the
A.i sne-Marne Defensive. *f*-er some experience ther^ I war;
ordered back as an instructor at Saumur as they were changing
from French to American instructors in the Sa-uiv.ur Officer.-;
Training Camp. I served one session as a Section Instruc
tor and a second as a Subdivision
at Saumur when the Ami Ft 5 oe VMS s
the 314-LM : elf! Art.13. lory in do e
cincf. v.*c!? v;5 Lit it unl.il i wu.s c^s-ch/:
in June, .19] 9. In the meantime, I
Instructor. I
irfnc-d. I tbr-y
as still
r -~ >-
-^ r> -t
gc
had
c>.{: C- -i.o
had tlic
INTERVIEW - HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCE
Page Two
after the Armistice and, while serving with i-he 3J.4th,
of training and 1
competing with a 75-ndllitaater gun section
which finally won the Championship of the First Army at
Bar-sur-Aube, France in March of 1919.
Johnson - Well, that was very interesting. I noticed in 1921 you were
first elected to the Assembly of the State of California
so you must have gotten rather interested in politics after
you returned to California.
Justice Spence - I didn t think that I was going to get interested
in politics, but a situation developed where Mr. William
J. Locke was leaving the Assembly in our district, as he had
become City Attorney of Alameda, and he felt it was incon
sistent to hold the two positions. So, I was induced to
run for that office and succeeded in being elected. I
spent three sessions there going through three elections -
1920, 1922, and 1924, which brought me into the sessions
which were held in Sacramento in 1921, 1923, and 1925.
Johnson - All right, the end of your term in 1925 were you defeated
or did you simply elect not to run again?
Justice Spence - I elected not to run in 1926. I had decided not to
run again after the J.923 session, but we had quite a battle
between factions witfftffche Republican Party which was really
the only active party^at that time. Democrats were very
few andfar between, and their registration was very low.
I had TP Democratic opponent and was given the Democratic
nomination by write-in in all three elections. We went
through the session in 1923 with Governor Richardson and
some of us had opposed his policies. In 1923 we had put
up Al Rosenshine, a member of the San Francisco Bar, against
Frank Merriam, who was Governor Richardson s choice, to run
for Speaker of the Assembly. We lost by one vote and all
our faction made me feel as though I would be deserting them
if I did not return for the 1925 session. I went back for
that session and we ran a man by the name of Isaac Jones
from Ontario against Frank Merriam for Speaker and we again
lost by one vote.
Johnson - Let s see, who was the Governor in 1925? It v/as Friend W.
Richardson, wasn t it?
Justice Spence - Friend W. Richardson was Governor in 1925. William
D. Stephens had been Governor during my first session in
1921. Governor Richardson v/on the election in 1922 and he
served as Governor through the sessions of 1923 and 1925.
Following that, Governor Youag c bfcatocl Governor ?.:.cvic rd r
-.on
end v. as.our Governor during the session of 1927.
r
ohnson -
Judge, 1925 was the first session which the so-called
Integrated Bar Bill was really pushed and pushed very
INTERVIEW - HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCE
Page Three
62
seriously. In fact, it wa.<;
my recolJ ccti on that it actually
passed by both houses but it war; vetoed by Governor Richard
son. Can you tell us some of the background in th- t area?
Justice Spence - It is a very interesting story. The integrated State
Bar was proposed and discussed by many people for many
years. I really think one of the earliest men to talk about
it and be really vitally interested in it was Jeremiah
Sullivan who v/as so well-known as a member and President
of the San Francisco Bar. It was Jeremiah Sullivan s speech
at Catalina in September of 1924 that finally launched the
very, serious step to get a State Bar Bill passed by the
Legislature. There had been, I believe, an abortive attempt
made in 1921, at which time I don t think the bill ever
came to a vote. At any rate, the old, voluntary California
Bar Association really worked at it. Jeremiah Sullivan had
appointed Joseph Webb of San Francisco as Chairman of the
committee to seek passage of the Integrated State Bar Bill.
Chairman Webb had been one of the most tenacious persons in
the vorld, working incessantly to get an Integrated State
Bar. Of course, he had a lot of help especially from men like
Komper Campbell, Thomas Ridgway and Leonard Slosson from the
south, and all the leaders of the Bar .in San Francisco,
including men like 0. K. Gushing and Al Rosenshine. I
think Joseph Kebb is fully entitled to the title, given to
him by many, of the Father of the State Bar Act; but, if I
were to name a Grandfather for the act, I would name
Jeremiah F. Sullivan.
Johnf.on - I wonder why Governor Richardson vetoed the bill after it
was passed by both houses in 1925.
Justice Spence - Well, Governor Richardson, I think, rather loved to
veto bills in the first place, and he jockeyed that bill
around after it had passed in 1925 so that it got into the
last ten days of the session before it was engrossed and
enrolled and sent down to his office. That meant that he
had 30 days after the session adjourned in which he could
sign the bill; and if he did
have to write a veto me.ssage.
to risk the possibility that
? veto. I think he had
it. Some of his
in
not care to sign it, he did not
Furthermore, he did not have
the Legislature would overturn
watching it and wasn *-
hcippy
about it. Some of his friends favored the bill, but he had
told .its proponents that no proposed bill v/ould be signed
by him unless the Governor v/as given thn power to appoint
the Board of Governors of the State Bar. That war. entirely
contrary to the views of the persons rnor-t i r. tores tr.-C- in the
St.vco ?. .:-:?: Act c-i.:! v.-ho hr.:l bo-vn <;o cid. ive ;. n cott^ n^ it
through tho ),:;--.; i sl^turo. They v/roU. a ]ctto:r to In.M r.o
advising him during the time the bill was ponding in the
Legislature. That was the reason, I believe, that lie got
INTERVIEW - HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCK
Pago Four
hi r>
friond. i in tho Loui. ul ;il ur^ to hold up t) 1 ^ bill
not send it in to his office unti.l the last ten day.<;
o:C the
session. That, I think, in short, in the story of hit; veto.
Johnson -
Judge, in 1027 it is my understanding that you became
Secretary to Governor Young, who was the: successor to
Richardson. The State Bar Bill was introduced again in
that session in 1927 and this time Governor Young signed
it with no difficulty at all. Was there some difficulty?
Justice Spence - I think it is fair to say there was no real difficulty
although I think it is also appropriate to say that some of
us had to do some educational work with Governor Young.
One legal officer of the State, who justifiably had the
respect and confidence of Governor Young, had given the
Governor a written opinion to the effect that this bill
was unconstitutional. This bothered the Governor greatly.
However, the Governor had respect and confluence in many or
us who had given contrary opinions, including the Attorney
General s office, represented by Frank GuerfLna, and also
the leaders of the Bar who had actively worVtedi for its
passage. So, I would say there wasn t too much difficulty
but the signing was not purely a perfunctory matter.
Johnson - That was a long time ago; don t you think you could name the
man that gave the opinion that the <ict v^is probeibly uncon
stitutional.
Justice Spence - Oh , I guess it wouldn t do any harm. The gentleman
who gave that opinion passed away several years ago. He
was a very, good friend of mine and a man I admired very
much. It was Fred Wood who was then Legislative Counsel and
who afterwards became a Justice of the District Court of
Appeal here in San Francisco.
Johnson - I knew Fred Wood, he was really a wonderful person.
Justice Spence - Fred Wood was closely associated for many years with
George Hat fie Id v;ho was a very, independent individual.
I don t believe George paid much attention to bar associa
tions in his younger days. He was one of those very,
independent practicioners , many of v/hom didn t like the State
Bar Bill because they were afraid of what might h^^pcn to
tne independent practitioner who rejoiced in his right to
go his independent way without interference. There were
several prominent attorneys, including several criminal
defense lawyers in San Francisco r.ncl other cities as well
as in the outlying counties who were at least in doubt
about the biJ ].".
Johnson -
Judge, 1 arn glad you mentioned that because ther;e days the
tendency is to believe that everybody uas for the Act, all
lawyers were for it and that wasn t true.
INTERVIEW
Page Five
- HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCE
Justice Spenco -
No, .it wasn t true aL alJ ami \.v li icl ciuile n li< l.lo
tune in tho Legislature. Ai RoMonrlri iic , myself and anolnor
member by tho name of Herbert McDowell I handled the b.i 1 .1. in
the Assembly in 1925. Wo had tho most active oppos j tion
fjom one William Hornblower, Assemblyman from Sa^ ; ranci ceo
who was a very, independent attorney and formidable adver
sary. There was also a character in the Legislature by
name of Hei singer, a farmer, from down near Fresno,
very serious and evidently felt that at some time some
attorney had "done him wrong", had either charged him too
much, or had taken too long with a case or something of
the kind. Heisinger, therefore, opposed every bill that
favored attorneys or was backed by the Bar.
the
who was
Johnson - I know that there are those who generally dislike attorneys,
I ve run into them myself on occasion. Apparently, Judge,
in the latter part, or middle part of 1927 you went on the
Superior Court Bench in Alcimcda County. Were you appointed
or were you elected?
Justice Spence - I was appointed by Governor Young. When I was asked
to serve as Secretary by Governor Young, I had previously
decided not to spend any more time in public office. I
wanted to get back to my practice and get it going without
interruption, but Governor Young was very anxious to have
close-at-hand someone who had recent legislative experience.
I turned, him down vrhen he first- asked me but 1 finally, after
several entreaties by Governor Young, told him I would con
sent to go up through the legislative session and the bill--
signing period, but then that would be the end. I. was
having dinner at his home one night at the end of the bill-
signing period. I said, "Governor, I hope you ve been
recalling our understanding to the effect that I was giving
up the Secretary post at the end of the bill-signing period.
He said, "Yes, I do remember that, but I want to tell, you,
however, that if you are going to leave mo I want to send you
away as a judge." There was a vacancy in the Alameda County
Superior Court and that was his way of offering w.z the
appointment. I was happy to accept but he induced me to
stay until the first of October to give him some help on
some clemency applications and on selecting appointees for
several boards and commissions.
Johnson - Was Earl Warren District Attorney while you were on the
Superior Court?
Justice Spence -
Yes, Earl and I started to practice about the same
time, he having started ono year earlier - in 1914. T was
only on tho Sir-^rior Court three yen>:r, , fro-i 3927 to ?930.
1 rivl V.^rrcn v. i?; Dr stricL Attorney all of th;<t tir.\:;. I v. :;r.
then appointed to the District Court of Appeal in 1930, and
65
INTERVIEW -
Page Six
HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER K. SPEND;
Earl Warren became Attorney
spent most
again.
-of h.ir. ti.mo in Sun
nr-vcil .in 1930. He t-^r-rraf i or
1 ranc.vi .".oo <md wo v;orc quite clone
Johnson -
Judge, this is something I don t know anything about, but some
of the people at the University of California suggested that
I ask you about it, although I know you haven t had a chance
to refresh your memory. They toll me that during this period
there was some form of Bail Bond Scandal in the Alameda
Court situation.
Justice Spence - I think there was more bail bond scandal in San
Francisco about that time. What they may have reference to
is the scandal with respect to street paving contracts in
the City of Oakland in which several prominent people were
allegedly involved. There was also a scandal with respect
to Barton Becker, the Sheriff of Alameda County, while Earl
Warren wan the District Attorney. Earl had some tough
matters there and he proceeded with them very fearlessly.
Whenever someone would suggest that.
some man", Earl would say, "Well, I
a fair, but vigorous prosecution."
before me, one of the most
Bandits Case involving !
Earl "take it easy on
promise you lie will have
Enr.l tried .several cases
i n to i : e ::
ting be i n <
\ the Yachting
oll and licHabb. Earl personally
tried several, of the tougher and more important cases, and
the Sam^dell and McNabb case was one of them,
Before the War, Earl and I ind a group of other young attorneys
formed what was called the Young Lawyers Club of Alameda
County. We met for dinner at the Peerless Cafe on 13th Street
near Franklin; at least that was the regular meeting place.
That Young Lawyers Club included a very interesting group,
but most of them have passed away. At that, time II. C. Chapman
had been President of the Bar Association of Alameda County
for about 15 years. He tried to get out of it each year, but
the members would not. let him. Ilr. Chapman was a fine man
cind a very able lawyer but he got to the point where the
office became a routine matter with him and new blood is al -
O.ys
good in any office. There was not enough life, you might
say, in the Bar Association for these young fellows I ve
been talking about, including Earl Warren, so that is the
reason the Young Lawyers Club was formed. It was broken up
when practically all the members went, into the service in
World War I. .,
Johnson - You mentioned Judge Louis Ward in
JL V W im?il UJLWA1WM U UVlVf S= JLJW LU. O ITCIJL. U -Lit JMW^VM^JQpWlUl^l.r J C^-^^-J_ Ull V I 1C* >
Calendar system which was a great improvement insofar as
procedures wort: concerned. Would you cordon t on that a
i. : i. .
Sent c the Mastcr
co
1 ittl
b.i t?
Justice Spence - Justice Louis Ward was a very outstanding member of the
bench here in San Francisco, and afterwards; on the District
56
INTERVIEW --
HON011ABLE
Page Seven
JUSTICE HOi- KR R. SPENCE
Pr.i or to I lie t.iiiu 1
,.;r Waru
cm undo 1
as soon
prcli minary
Court of Appeal in th i . First nislrirl
tha* Hi"".v V.MS a rr ml i . i ; . I ( /; .. K.:.J 1 .in I hi:
1
,
si, L.C, J
saw (lie difficulties iiiul i ru>f f i c i our i rs in ihr sys
which cases were assigned to pro t J cv i
<\
r cle] .:irtmeul
as th<-y
were filed and on-h department handled a]J
matterr; and also the trial of all! There was a tremendous
amount of time lost. Judge Ward finally induced his col
leagues to agree that there should be a Mar. ter Calendar
Department for all civil jury cases. They agreed that all
such cases would go into such a department when ready for
trial and be assigned out of there. Through his efforts and
his tact, seeking cooperation from both his colleagues and
members of the Bar, he did a monumental work in that Master
Calendar Department in getting the San Francisco calendar
in much better shape even before there ever was a Judicial
Council to point the way by rule.
Johnson - One other matter
I d like to have
that you mentioned a little bit earlier that
you expand on is the Small Claims Court.
ever.
percentage
Club
Justice Sprnce - When T first starlod to praciio<>
lav; in San Franoi sco
I can remember that, if you picV.od up the Pr;oordor nnd look <.: .!
at the calendar of the JnsUces Courl you would see an end
less lineup of cases with "RaUcr" as plaintiff. Thir; was old
Jake Ra|ffcr of RaWor s Collection Agency. He had a tremendous
number of cases in the courts ar people wont to collection
agencies when their cases did not warrant the employment of
an attorney because of the small amount involved. Rut
using a collection agency, the cost was often a high
of the amount recovered. I believe the Commonwealth
first developed the Small Claims Court idea and I believe it
was also approved by The San Francisco Bar Association. A
bill v/as introduced by Al Rosenshine in the 1921 session to
provide for a Small Claims Court. In this court a man could
not _have an attorney and if a plaintiff chose to go in this
Small Claims Court, he thereby waived hi.s right of appeal.
The defendant could not have an cittornc-y but the defendant
did not waive- the right of appeal. There was a limitation on
the jurisdiction at first to ca.c;cs involving i-ot more
That v/as raised afterwards to $200 and if I am
it is up as far as $500 now. The Small Claims
great deal to take care of the small claim
expense and fanf^^re
v: th the
and
administration
to make the
0."
justice.
publi
than $50
not mistaken
Court did a
without too much
better satisfied
Johnson -
Well, Judgo, your explanation of the Small Claims Court I
think points out that we had inflation going on here for a good
many years.
Johnson -
nut, nov/ I want to get on to
of Appeal to which I understand
appointed or elected?
your v;ork
you
on the District. Coin
wont i.n 1.930. We re you
67
INTERVIEW -
Page Eight
HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCE
Justice
ii.v.t
IK! .1 r.<n in 1930 for
;
r: undo i
tlu.1
oK jy.-il.i.in .: .
".*"
election w i th Judge Fran): Dt.-asy
notice Koford, my
had won fiv cut cf the
I v;ent on the District
v. crc; Presiding Justice:
George Sturtevant. The
of Presiding Justice
Sponce - 1 was first appointed in
thr uncxpi n-d term "<
* ."
y r:-
open, "knock-down drag-out"
ar. my oi)ponent:. He had run
predecessor/ two years bc f "re and he
nine counties in the district. When
Court of Appeal the other two merubcr.
John T. Nourse and Associate Justice
vacancy had been caused by the death
James Koford, formerly Judge of the Superior Court in Alameda
County. I insisted that the Governor appoint one of the
incumbents as Presiding Justice because I was younger in
years and certainly much younger in point of service than
either of them. So, Justice Nourse was appointed Presiding
Justice and the three of us served together for fifteen years
from 1930 to 1945 at which time I went on to the Supreme
Court.
Now I want to mention something here that, 1 think, is rather
interesting. I served a total of 33 years on the bench, 3
on the Superior Court in Alamcda County; 15 on the District
Court of Appeal, the First Appellate District, and 15 on the
Supreme Court; the dates being Superior Court, 1927 1930;
District Court of Appeal, 1.930 -1945; and, Supreme Court,
1945 - 19(-0. 1 was having a little difficulty with my eyes
and therefore retired in 19CO and had cataract operations
following my retirement. Nov; to the interesting fact that
I want to mention. As a coincidence I think I hold a unique
record which will never be equalled. I served a total of 29
years on three different courts before there was a single
change in personnel on any one of those courts durincTJser-
vice thereon. In other words during ray three years ofr^the
court in Alameda County nobody died or retired; in my fifteen
years on the District Court of Appeal nobody died or retired;
and, in my 15 years on the Supreme Court, the first change, in
personnel came in 1956 when Justice Edmonds; retired; and so
I was always the junior member in
court in which I served from 1927
point of service
to 1956.
on every
Johnson -
Judge, that i r. a very interesting record and while you were
on the District Court of Appeal do you recall any parti. ou la
cases that you thought were outstanding or of great interest?
Justice Sponoe -
Yes, I believe I c?*"> recall a few such car ric- which I
will refer to very briefly and v/ill take the liberty later of
furnishing the citations of these cases for the benefit of
anyone who might be interested in further detail.
Preli rvi nari ly , let me say that the c. :
.i"r.-.~ involvi PC; the
fvxi-r\!:c-r,t liuj-r^r. in tores, t are or d.inrril^ I. TO;:: e.xcc-. .n !
. : rcc! :;
n
t;io trial court where the pcirt.i.c. .
, the a ttornoy^ , tr.-:.
witnesses and the jurors are all present and participating
with the Judge in the enactment-, of live judicial drama. But
there were many interesting cases on appeal.
68
INTERVIEW HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPKWCJ,
Page Nine
The first cane in point of tinu which oonic-s to my mi rid in
thv . :. of noi rian__v. !,.. v.
iv>
.... . ^m lt.y^oj .San J
rjuu^i :.<
o,
(96 C.A.""69) in which**! wroTc the opinion in 192H while
sitting as a Justice pro-tern of the District Court of Appeal .
The case is of interest ;;.->
plr.Jntiff was seeking to cl u -"
title to a strip of land underlying the present San Francisco
City Hall, subsequent to the erection of that structure.
The case is of interest to members of the Bar as the plaintiff
sought to prove title by common reputation, relying for that
purpose on the testimony of Henry E. Monroe, a former-
President of the Bar Association of San Francisco.
An interesting condemnation case was Joint Highway Pis trie t
No. 9 v. Ocean Shore Railroad (128 C.A.~7~43) . The old
Ocean Shore Railroad which ran down the coast out of San
Francisco had ceased operations. The Joint Highway District
sought to condemn about 4 miles of the old right-of-way which
ran along a shelf around the precipitous cliffs in the
vicinity of Pedro Point. The Highway Districts *
experts
attached very little value to the property for as one of
them claimed it was "too steep for goats to climb". The
Ocean Shore s experts, on the other hand, took into considera
tion the large amount which the Ocean Shore had expended in
levelling the shelf for the roadbed and asserted that the
land was of great value as it was readi ly adaptable with
little further expense for highway or railroad purposes. The
evidence as to market value was therefore widely divergent.
Judge Maurice T. Dooling, Jr., tried the case which was not
free from difficulty on the trial or the appeal. Perhaps the
opinion which I wrote in that case was among the more signi
ficant opinions which I have written.
Hensley y.__ McBride , (112 Cal. App. 50) was a "dog-bite" case
which will ever remain in my memory. Under the then settlc.d
rule which has been loosely stated as "Every dog is entitled
to his first bite", we felt compelled to reverse a judgment
in favor of plaintiff. We took occasion there to point out
the anonioly of this rule in the light of the legislation
placing an absolute liability upon the dog s owner where the
injuries were inflicted upon "sheep, angora goats, cashmere
goats or poultry". We suggested that "equal solicitude nu ght
be shown by the legislature for the welfare and protection of
human beings if this situation were called to its attention. "
T. e legislature did char^ . the rule shortly thereafter and
the author of the bill making the change sent to the members
of the court copies of the court s opinion in the Hensley
case in the form which he had had it printed and widely
circulated throughout the legislatjfcir% halls.
Jt^~^j *
f
. h-.vn I re fell.1
l. :.o intc reo l ;
:: will. i;. vo.lv.-. .1 in Jl.vtcit" of Kr:/ly
(3.12 Cc:l.,",pp. Tj i:.) . T;>O testator \u-.si SC.T V.
ing to d.ivico
equally between two nieces, Iris and Hazel, certain porsono.l
property. He apparently ran into difficulty with respect to
69
INTERVIEW HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCE
Page Ten
his dispos i ti on of hi 5; . .;
ingle lar<j<>
rl i ,- i:mncl ) in<r. I!r solv-.-d
in 3 u.[ "U liima to his own sa t >
r. KuH i on by prov i d i
IKJ ,
"Let J J i :;
and Ilax.cl shake d i re for UK: di oniond ring." Adding t.o the
complication:;, Hazel died al tcr the t ^tator s death but
ho fore the dice had boon shaken;
There were many other case.;, civ: .], and criminal, which might
be reviewed here, but I will conclude: by referring to just
two cases in the Supremo Court in which I participated while
serving there, on temporary assignment.
The first was the case of People v . Lamson , ( &-v ><\
ef ) ,
a murder case in which there was very wide public interest as
the defendant and his deceased wife were well-known around
Palo Alto and Stanford University. In that case I wrote a
short concurring opinion in which Chief Justice Waste and
Justice Shenk joined. In our view, there was ample evidence
to sustain either (1) the prosecution s theory that the de
ceased wife had been murdered by the defendant husband, or
(2) the defenr.e theory that the deceased wife had been the
victim of a fatal fall in her bathtub. All justice. ;
voted
for a reversal but for divergent reasons. It is this type
of decision which often imposes a most difficult task upon
the trial judge who may handle the retrial of the case.
The second of the two cases to which I last referred was that
of EvansVSuer rCirt , 14 Cal.2d 5G3. That case is to
be remembered not only because of the many interesting legal.
questions which arose out of the take-over by the Building and
Loan Commissioner of the Pacific States Building and Loan
Association, but also because of a very tr^jgic and unusual
occurrence connected v/i th the hearing of the case. A s;pceial
calendar had been arranged for extended oral argument and
argument had progressed for some time when Justice Emmet t
Scawell arose and left the bench. Within two or three
minutes thereafter, word was received by the Chief Justice
that Justice Seawell had passed away in his chambers. There
had been no warning of any such possibility and the shoe ;
was devastating. Court was immediately adjourned ctnd the case
was later reset for argument with Justice Pull.en of the Third
District assigned to replace our beloved lost colleague.
Johnson -
Judge, I want to move on now to the Supremo Court which you
VY^nt on as you remarked in 1945. It is ray understanding that
you were appointed first by Governor Earl Warren.
Justice Spcnce - I was appointed by Governor Warren and it was the only
opportunity that PJarl had to make an appointment to the
Sr.orc :.o Court \:hilc-. he served ar: C-ovc-^ nor .
Johnson -
Judge, this period from 1945 to I960 J thin!: i : one of the ir.ort
interesting in the history of California because it was a
Page Eleven
J LoXiUi HUi-UiK R. SPLNCE
70
period of greatly increasing population, greater industriali
zation of the State and a period of real development. Also
on the Supreme Court i thinK the situation war, somewhat
unusual by having three Justices who were outstanding in
different ways, but all three were outstanding, that is
Carter, Gibson and Traynor. I am sure they were axl ther
lere
at the same time with you
Justice Spence - That s right. The court during most of my service
consisted of Chief Justice Gibson, Justice John Shenk,
Justice Douglas Edmonds, Justice Jesse Carter, Justice Roger
Traynor, Justice B. Rey Schauer and myself.
Johnson -
During this period Justice Carter was known as the great
dissenter. I was curious as to what sort of backroom dis
cussions were had. Did the Chief Justice try to convince
Justice Carter to change his mind or did he leave him more
or less alone?
Justice Spence - We obviously had our differences in our professional
attitudes and in our professional viev/s.and so forth; however,
the amazing thing was that we got along remarkably well in
our personal relationships. I ll never forget that when
Justice Carter was first appointed on the court, one of the
men up in the valley who had practiced against him war. asked
what kind of a fellow he was while practicing in Redding.
The man replied, "I want to tell you that socially Jesse was
a most affable, hospitable man and a wonderful host but
that professionally he was one of the toughest, meanest
s I ve ever met in my entire life."
Perhaps that description was not very farfetched. There was
no give-and-take when Justice Carter was in a battle and he
held up no punches. I think that unfortunately for the court,
he probably went overboard
think that the tact
some of his hottest
in some of his opinions, but I do
and ability of Chief Justice Gibson kept
blasts from appearing in the reports.
Johnson - I recall that when Traynor first went on the Supreme Court
there was a good deal of criticism of him. He has since
become one of our greatest Justices, but do you recall why
he was subjected to criticism?
Justice Spence - At that time the Qualifications Commission existed to
pass on the qualifications of the judicial appointees of the
Governor. Serving on the Commission were Chief Justice Gibson,
Presiding Justice Nourse and Attorney General Earl Warren.
Nourse and Warren had refused to affirm the appointment of
Max Radin who was a Law Professor at the University of
California and a very controversial figure. There.: vere cer-
tci.in things Max hr,. l done, inclv>-.!3 r-.o tryinr: t.o ir. i .i u or ;.:
in panel inn c^ses thc.it hit thr>
v/rorv; v- c v the/ irr,n v.iio v/-::j:e
passing on his qualifications. Roger J. Traynor v/as then
appointed and I knov; of no formal opposition to him before
INTERVIEW -
Page Twelve
HONORABLE JUSTICK IIOiMER R. SPEMCV
71
the Quali f.ioati onr. Coinini ss i on . Justice Tray nor had his own
views as ir> the law and his ovti view:; as to iho use oT Iho
JMWOV of <i
judicial offiO T. rur .hi si .moo ,
in People v. ( -than
lie overruled People y. Coa/.i ilcfi which ho hiiuself had written
a couple of yours before, "lie
apparently did not sec: fit
in the earlier Con/ales ^..i.se to overrule the established lav/
on the subject of whether il.leyally obtained evidence miyht
be admitted. Justice Traynor v/as a brilliant man; he writes
as easily as any man I know. He became, somewhat to my
surprise, a very able administrator and he followed a man
who was a hard man to follow, Chief Justice Phil S. Gibson.
Justice Traynor was a very able person and, of course, he has
his own philosophy and if you didn t agree with .it, he some
times yot a little put out about it. Nevertheless, he and I
had the happiest of personal relationships.
Johnson -
Well, I think part of the feeling of the bar without a doubt
was that he [Max Rad.in] v/as a college professor and a lot
of lawyers are of the opinion you would need to have a good
deal of cictual practice in the lav/ before you cire competent
as a Judge.
Justice Spence - I think probably that there was devo.lopiny at that time
an attitude on the part of coll ego professors which was very
antagonistic; toward the established rules that had boon laid
down by the courts. They were very critical of many of thr:
rules and were very eager to see a lot. of those: rules changed.
When any one of them got on the court, he usually went right
out to change the laws without worrying much about stare
decisis or about keeping a systematic pattern in the lav/.
It v/as quite disconcerting to many members of the Bar. I
talked to several men after Justice Traynor made his first
speech as Chief Justice to the State Bar meeting held in the
big pavilion on the Fair Grounds in Monterey. I can remember
some very high-class attorneys coming out of that meeting and
agreeing theit his speech "scared the devil" out of them.
Johnson - I wonder why Justice Edmonds retired J he retired rather early,
didn t he? He wasn t too old!
Justice Spence - I don t know, I.- think he was C5 and entitled to retire.
There had been some antagonism on the court because: of pro
fessional differences in viewpoints. Justice Edmonds had
always been very close with Ed Shattuck, now deceased, who
v/as a member of a law firm down in the southern part of the
State. Ed Shattuck was at one time Chairman of the Republican
State Central Committee. Me v/as quite a lively fellow ?nrl
a well-reputed lawyer. I think Justice Eelr.ionds originally
had sone connection with hir.i before. he f.ir^t. becr.ir.r.: a JHidacv.
} think Ju:. t:\ e-:.
1
F.c i >nc
!
5; fervor lav: fin-i Kird-:.- :\n of.\\
h.- ni to ro.tvrn i.;i- t.-or] ::.;->:.
h j was a:::-::;
our; to e, :!. bae .
Southern California. Ke retired in 195G and probably
a mistake in doing so because in 1959, the retirement bill
v/as changed so that the. retired Judge, receives three-fourths
of the pay of his office rather than one half. In the Federal
INTERVIEW - HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER F. SPENCR
Page Thirteen
Courts there is full-pay re-Li reh.fu t wi.l l
<->ut
any contribution,
h\i|- the California J\idgc>r: tod iy nif p. i^/ing ribont R*, r>r more
ol" their salaries into their ^efi rein- -nl fund. The fund .is
having a )i.n cl time .staying solvent c \/<.ui v. ith those J<u;go
contribution.; .
Johnson - Some of the Judges are paying an
salary for the retirement fund.
acldit.i onal 1.02 of tJieir
Justice Spcnce - I do not know of that, but the State makes a contri
bution equal to that made by the Judges. May I say as we
talk about Judicial compensation that I lent a hand in the
1921 s-ession of the Legislature to putting through a bill
which raised the salaries of the Superior Court Judges of
the three largest counti es that is, Los Angeles, San
Francisco and Alameda Counties from $6,000 to $7,000 a year.
I never got more thanks and appreciation for anything that
I had ever done. When I went on the bench, in 1929, those
salaries had been raised to $9,000, and $9,000 then, when State
officers and employees paid no U. S. Income Tax and when the
value of the dollar was greater, was as good as twice that much
later on when we were getting higher salaries.
Johnson - Justice Shenk was on the Supreme Court the same timo as you.
Do you have: any recollections about him; he always struck
me as a very kindly, pleasant person.
Justice Spencc - I was very fond of Justice Shenk. 1. knew the family
quite well and I think Justice Shenk was quite helpful in
getting me appointed on the Supreme Court. I pro-t.emmed
quite a bit in the Supreme Court, while I was on the District
Court of Appeal as they had a great deal of sickness as
well as disqualifications.
Justice Shenk worked right up until the day he passed away .
He was up at Twain Harte and he rang me to ask if I. had
made up my mind on a certain case. I told him I had not but
that I was going to work on i t further over the weekend.
He said he was doing the same thi.ng and that he would ring
me about it on Monday. I did not hear from him on Monday so
I rang. I got Mrs. Shenk on the phone and his poor wife had
to tell me that he had passed away on the weekend. He was
going strong right up to the end. Justice Shenk v/as a very
able, conscientious, interesting, self-made man who thoroughly
enjoyed life and was a joy to work with. Can a story go in
here that s not bad?
Johnson - Sure.
Justice 5 ;--r:ne<?.
- 7,1. a ;;.,>; hi ng of the Son > ra;K.:i .-co r..vr 7\r soc:> ?tio i 5; t
l.!.u Palace Hotel, Justice Then!: and .[ r,n:1 scv^VcJ attorney:.;
were at a table of about ten. During the course of the meal,
we got to talking about where each of us had been born.
INTERVIEW HONORABLE JUSTICE HOM12R R
Page Fourteen
SPEWI E
JusUrv fihonh ,
who:u> nam-.- \;;i:\ , io)m Wr: 1
.
ley, V.MM a son of n
MoUioclJut. mi iii M.e.r who lived on ;i f,; rni .i r T cw York. Molhodist
ministers were frequently moved from ono p;irish to another
and Justice Shenk s father was sent from New York to Vermont
whore three months later Justice Shenk v.-a:; born. Justice
Shenk was the last one to respond in telling whe^ he had been
born; and in his very dignified way said, "1 was born in
Vermont, but I was conceived in the State of New York."
Sitting alongside him was Herb Weni g of the Attorney General s
office and he looked up and said, "Boy, what a memory!"
Pardon me for injecting something irrelevant.
Johnson - Well, that s the type of thing we want to getsome recollec
tions that otherwise will be missed entirely.
Justice Spence - I could sit down for a day and tell the stories Justice
Shenk told. He was a wonderful man and was great at spinning
yarns.
Johnson - One more question in a different nroa. .When Earl Wurron
became Covcrnox he kind of surprised a lot of his supporters
by proposing a good amount of reform legislation. I think
some connection with health insurance and a few things like
that.
Justice Spence - Earl Warren s life makes a very interesting story.
His father was a railroad man. Incidentally, in Earl s early
years his father was murdered--! think Earl was in his teens--
and they never found any trace of the murderer or Icam^B^
his motive. Earl was raised in a family of humble circumstance
he had worked hard and had seen the hard side of life. He
attended the University of California. In Alavnoda County Ear]
Warren joined the District Attorney s staff while Ejfcra
DccoLo
was District Attorney. When Ezra Dscoto retired as District
Attorney, Frank &VW and Earl Warren were aspirants for the:
office. Both men were about equal in service and experienc 1
"
1
.
The Board of Supervisors v/aited sonic time before taking action.
They finally, by one vote, nainod Earl Warren. Many then
believed that Earl s main support canto from the Knowland
family, v/ho published the Oakland Tribune, and were credited
with representing the more conservative point of view. Mike
Kelly and his organization in Alameda County was the group
which was credited with representing the more lib^^al side.
Party designations did not mean much then because the Democra
tic Party was not even trying to make a real effort. At any
rate, Earl undoubtedly had the backing of the Knowland family
and of course as Governor he ultimately appointed William
Knowla.nd as United States Senator. VJi.
1 T i aw Kno-vland ^rob^b 1 v
bc .r-r-. .r:.?: i.-.or:.- cV iv-o"Vcitivo v:.;
.
t. i the: pr-rrjac/o of yc-ar;i vhi r
Earl. Karircn piv-h.v-bly v/oiit in the- ot i -r c~H : t cli o^ . 1 d
know how close Earl Warren and. William Knov/.land are
INTERVIEW - HONORABLE JUSTICE HOMER R. SPENCK
Page Fifteen
Earl was alwayr, a very conscientious , able mrm; ho was always
a nian of the cjrciter*- in+r-rtH *-v Earl was tru 1
t hi" con
victions and liia heart was always on the f:ide of the underdog,
despite the fact that ho had been a very vigorous prosecutor.
Earl went a.1 1 out in support of his own theorier; r-< Governor
just as Hiram Johnson had done. One reason H.iram Johnson
obtained such a large following way because he had a definite
program. Earl drew quite a following for that same general
reason as well as because of his own personal charms. I was
not surprised, as some people were, to see Earl V/arren take
the positions which he took as Governor of California.
75
INDEX Homer R. Spenoe
Agriculture and water resources, 25-27
Alaraeda Times- Star . 17
Allen, Bill, 19
Allen, Ed., 1?, 19
Allen, Judge John J. , 51
American Legion, 18
America/ s House of Lords. Harold Ickes, 52
Bar Association, Alameda County, 11
Bar Association, California, 28-29,
Bar Association, San Francisco, 29
Bar bill, California state, 2?-30
Bartlett, Mayor Louis (Berkeley), 20, 2?
Brown, Governor Edmund (California), 56
Burbank, Daniel W. ,
Campbell, Kemper, 29
Carter, Justice Jesse W. , 52
Chapman, Melvin C. , 11
Chessman, Caryl, 56
Clark, Dave, 11
Clark, James, 5
Correctional system, ^3-^7, 55-56
Criminal procedure, 4-2
Curtis, Justice Jesse W. ,
Gushing, O.K., 29
Dargie family, 50
Davie, Mayor John L. (Oakland), 20
Davis, Angela, 44
Davis, Ellis, 8
Deasy, Prank, 18
Dooling, Maurice T. , Jr., 8, 39
East Bay Municipal Utility District Act, 19-27
Fall, Albert, 16
Finn, Tom, 17
Fox, Chris, 11
Free Press. 52
76
Gannet newspaper ohain, 52
Gibaon, Chief Juntloe Phil, 50
Gordon, Walter, 55
Graft and corruption, 15-16, 23-24
Hamlin, Oliver, 11
Hearst newspaper chain, 52
Hoover, Herbert, 10
Hughes, Mrs., 22
I ekes, Harold, 52, 53
Ivanhoe case, 25-2?
Johnson, Hiram, 16
Jones, Gilbert, 11
Judicial Council, 28, 4?-48
Judicial procedure, 28, 32-33
Kelly, Mike, 1?
Knowland, Joe, 1?, 51, 53
Koford, Joseph, 18
Laney, Lynn, 8
Ledwich, Tom, 11
Legislation and legislature, 15-34
Legislative reapportionment, 3^-36
Locke, William J. , 15-16, 20, 2?
Long, Percy, 10
Los Angeles Times bombing case, 58
Martin, Captain, 51
Mathewson, Colonel, 13
McDowell, Sherman, 1?
Meetz, Theodore, 2
Merriam, Gov. Prank, 16
Miller forgery case, 39-40
Moore, Courtney, 8
Municipal Utility District Act, see East Bay Municipal
Utility District Act
Neumiller, Charles, 55
Nourse, Justice John T. , 50
77
Oakland Inter-City Express. 8
Oakland Tribune. 5 0-5*3
Olson, Governor Culbert, 50
People v. Schmidt, see Los Angeles Times bombing case
Politics, 15-16
Public defenders, 4-2-4-3
Public utilities, 19-27, 30-31
Radin, Max, 4-9
Republican party, 16-19
Richardson, Gov. Friend W. , 16, 29, 55
Ridgway, Thomas, 29
Riley, Phil, 50-51
Roberts, Earl, 4-5
Roberts, George G,, , 5
Roberts, Grace, 4-
Rosenshine, Albert, 29
Ruef, Abe, 15-16
Sackett, Sheldon, 51
Sampsell and MoNabb case, 38-39
Saylor, Anna, 22
Seavey, Clyde, 31
Shea, Willard, 4-ln
Shenk, Justice John W. , 25
Slosson, Leonard, 29
Spence, Clark, 5
Spence, Homer
California District Court of Appeal Judge, 4-0-53
California Supreme Court justice 5459
Campaign for legislative reapportlonment 3436
Early work experience 9-12
Education 6-9
Family history 4-6
Military service 12-14-
State legislative work 15-34-
Superior court Judge, Alameda County 37-4-8
Sproul, Robert G. , 22
Steinhart, Jesse, 10
Stephens, Governor William D. , 31
Sullivan, Jeremiah, 29
Taxation, 30-31, 58
Time magazine, 52
Transportation, 2-3, 24-
78
University of California, Berkeley, 6, 47, 49, 55
Warren, Earl, 1-2, 11-12, 42
As attorney general, 49-50
As district attorney, 38-41, 43, 45
As governor, 54-55
Legislative reapportionment, 34-35
Waste, Chief Justice William, 47
Webb, Joseph J. , 29
Weinman, L.R. , 14
Whittell, George, 6
Welfare legislation, 57
Wittschen, Theodore, 21-22
Wood, Andrew Y. , 30
Wood, Judge Fred, 46
World War I, 12-14
Yachting bandits case, see Sampsell and McNabb case
Young, Governor C.C., 30, 35, 37, 49, 55
Young Lawyers Club, 10-12
University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Earl Warren Oral History Project
E.A. Daly
ALAMEDA COUNTY POLITICAL
LEADER AND JOURNALIST
An Interview Conducted by
Joyce A. Henderson
(c) 1972 by The Regents of the University of California
E. A. Daly
TABLE OF CONTENTS - E.A. Daly
INTRODUCTION
INTERVIEW HISTORY
CHRONOLOGY
I FAMILY BACKGROUND AND SCHOOL DAYS 1
II WORLD WAR I If
III SETTLING IN CALIFORNIA 7
IV PRINCE HALL MASONRY 12
V THE CALIFORNIA VOICE 17
VI ALAMEDA COUNTY POLITICS 23
The Kelly and Knowland Political Factions 23
The Alameda County Republican League 26
The Republican County Central Committee 33
VII GOODWIN J. KNIGHT 38
VIII EDMUND G. BROWN 1*5
INDEX kQ
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Elbert Allen Daly was interviewed by the Regional Oral History Office
as a part of the Earl Warren Era Project in order to document the highlights
of his forty-four years as publisher and editor of the California Voice
newspaper and of his political activities in Alameda County. The California
Voice is preserved on microfilm in the Newspaper and Microcopy Room, Univer
sity of California, Berkeley.
Interviewer:
Conduct of the
Interview:
Editing:
The interview was conducted by Joyce A. Henderson,
a staff member of the Regional Oral History Office,
whose speciality is Negro political history during
the Earl Warren Era in California.
The interview was held in two sessions on July 21
and July 28, 1971 at Mr. Daly s home, 1106 Trestle
Glen Road in Oakland, where he lives alone as a
widower.
The transcribed interview was edited by Joyce
Henderson and then sent to Mr. Daly along with
questions to aid him in expanding and clarifying
his original remarks. Mr. Daly, finding writing a
rather difficult chore at age eighty-one, chose to
have his answers recorded on tape by Mrs. Henderson.
The material gathered during the two interview
sessions and during the question and answer session
was thoroughly rearranged during editing; and because
they were no longer meaningful, the dates of the
interviews were excluded from the text.
Joyce A. Henderson
Interviewer -Editor
13 October 1972
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
I FAMILY BACKGROUND AND SCHOOL DAYS
JH: I d like to ask first where you were born.
Daly: Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
JH: And the date?
Daly: November 16, 1891.
JH: I think it would be good to get your grandparents names.
Daly: My grandfather was named Tom Daly and his wife was named Ellen
Daly. Do you want my mother and father?
JH : Yes .
Daly: My father and mother were Ralph F. Daly and Lilly L. Daly.
JH: Was it difficult to get an education in Alabama?
Daly: No. Well, Just like all over the South, you could go just so far.
See, we had our own farm on the outskirts of town and we had to
tend that farm. When we were needed, everything else was off.
JH: Was it unusual for Negroes to own their own farm?
Daly: No, it wasn t unusual but most people didn t have their own farm.
You just had to rent your own land and have something cultivated
left, see. It wasn t customary for everybody to have a farm.
Just a few people had their own farm. We had a 30-acre farm.
We rented it, though.
JH: I understand you weren t able to go to school year round.
Daly: No, you see, sometimes I would start in January, sometimes it would
be December, like that. Then we would go until school closed. But
I didn t start full-time until I was eleven years old.
JH: Could you give me the names and the locations of the schools that
you attended?
Daly: Oh, what school? [ Blinking ] The first school I went to was a
private school and there was a principal by the name of Mr.
Champion. I don t know his first name. I Just know Champion.
From there I went to public school, and I was still in the first
grade. That was at Tuscaloosa and it was on the west side of town.
I lived on the east side of town and I had to go to school on the
west side of town. I probably walked two miles and a half either
wayon the whole, at least two miles and a half. Well, before I
finished with grammar school I went to Taleadega. The colleges had
grammar schools and I had to complete my grammar school there.
JH: Where is Taleadega?
Daly: Taleadega is about thirty miles out east of Birmingham. I went
there and I didn t finish college but I went one or two years. I
became an All-American shortstop in baseball. I was written up
in all the papers in the country.
JH: And for what team did you play?
Daly: Taleadega College team. See, we Just played colleges, although I
was in a grammar school.
JH: Did you play college-age people?
Daly: Oh yes, all classes were mixed sizes and ages.
JH: Then after Taleadega where did you go?
Daly: I went to Clark College and then I finished a four-year high school
at Morris Brown College. Taleadega is in Taleadega, Alabama; and
Clark and Morris Brown are in Atlanta, Georgia.
JH: Why did you go to Florida?
Daly: I had a brother there and he lived in Florida.
JH: What was his name?
Daly: Thomas Daly, Thomas F. Daly. He had attended Tuskegee. Later, he
married and lived in Florida.
JH: I see. Do you remember A. Philip Randolph back in the Florida days?
Daly: No, no. I remember A. Philip Randolph from, let me see, oh, about
32, 1932. My wife knew him as a young man. He was born in
Daly: Jacksonville, Florida. I don t know what schools he went to, but
I think he went to some school in Hew York after he left the South.
II WORLD WAR I
JH: When did you go into World War I?
Daly: August, 1918.
JH: I understand you were shipped to Europe?
Daly: Yes. I was drafted in 1918, went to camp, and in two weeks I was
put in a company of seasoned troops. They sent us to Camp Dix,
New Jersey. There, from Camp Dix, Hew Jersey (we stayed there two
weeks), we embarked for Europe. Everything on the high seas, you
know, the protection on different boats; submarines chased us, and
other boats around us tried to destroy our boats. We got over all
right and landed in Liverpool, England. We stayed there twenty-
four hours and we went from there to Winchester. Winchester was
where I took sick. They took me to the hospital and I stayed in
the hospital for two weeks. Then they let me go. But I never
caught up with my regiment any more. From there I went to
Southampton and from Southampton went over to Cherbourg, France.
That was when I began to see service overseas. We went to a
little town called Dela Var.
I told you about the sentence that the fellow said? You don t
want it again do you?
JH: Why not?
Daly: The first sentence I heard a Frenchman say was spoken by a little
boy who came up to us and I gave him a penny, an American penny.
He ran to his mother and he said, "Oh, Mere, Mere, Americain soldat
donnez-moi un sou!" And with every word, I never forgot the
sentence .
We were always traveling behind the lines. I was in the
ordinance department, going to take up messages to the main line of
troops, you see. We carried a gun, but we never had an opportunity
to use it. We were always sneaking in and out, carrying ordinances
Daly: to this company or to that company in the battalion.
JH: After you never caught up with your original regiment, were you
always with only a black unit or were you working with all kinds?
Daly: Oh, a mixed group, because they put all the casualties together.
There were white and colored.
JH: I see. I was very impressed with that quotation by General de
Gaulle.
Daly: Oh, General de Gaulle came around one afternoon and made inspec
tion and after the inspection was over, some of the boys got around
him and asked him different questions. One of the boys asked if
they had any colored troops. He said yes and he called a name oh,
General Foch. He said, "General Foch is a commander of the French
army and navy." He said, "He is a black man, but he is a Frenchman I
"
JH: Which somehow made the difference?
Daly: Yes, yes and he repeated it. He said, "Re is a black man but he is
a Frenchman I"
I never will forget it.
JH: How did that affect you?
Daly: Affect me? I was happy over it, you know. Everybody was happy to
know that he was a black man and we all knew he was a Frenchman.
He didn t have to tell us that. But we just surmised he was a
Frenchman of course, he had to be.
JH: Were there certain units that only Negroes were sent to in World
War I?
Daly: Yes, in all the American military forces artillery, infantry.
And there was no Air Force for colored people in World War I.
There were a few after they got to France. The French would put
them in there.
JH: The French put the Negroes ?
Daly: Yes, you see after they got over they combined together. They
wanted us together for the purpose of better cooperation. Then the
Frenchmen would pick certain good ones that they wanted to go in
the Air Force. We had a few aviators from that not many.
In the infantry, we had from about the 369th to about the
382nd Infantry. They were all black troops. Then we had 369
Daly: Field Artillery. They had several. I can t name those in World
War I because I didn t get to contact the artillery. But they had
many. But all of them were solid black. There were no white
people in it, only officers. They were manned by white officers.
The majority of the officers were white.
JH: In which unit were you originally?
Daly: I started in the 8ll Pioneer Infantry, Headquarters Platoon. I was
made an orderly the night I went to camp. An orderly is one of the
fellows that stays in the office and does the errands and things
like that.
Did I tell you about the blind fellow coming home on the boat?
JH: Why don t you repeat that? We didn t get it on tape.
Daly: There were several blind soldiers on board the ship returning to
the United States, and when we got back to New York the fellows
said: "Oh here is the Statue of Liberty!" And one blind fellow
says, "Oh." (He was blind, he couldn t see.) He said, "Oh,
where
is it? Show it to me. I can t see it nor can I feel it. After
all my services, I can t see it nor feel it. How sad I feel." And
all the fellows felt very badly over it because it was true. He
couldn t feel it mentally nor physically because he was blind, and
there was no liberty in this country for Negroes, as such.
JH: When you were in France, did the French officers use you in any way
in their infantry or -
Daly: No. I was altogether under the American.
Ill SETTLING IN CALIFORNIA
JH: When did you come to California?
Daly: I came to California in 1922, looking for greener pastures. When
I was discharged I went to Pittsburgh; that s where I was living
when I enlisted in the service of the army. When discharged I
returned to Pittsburgh in March and sent for my girl friend,
Lillian Madora Hilton, and we got married in Pittsburgh, June the
3rd, 1919 I moved to Pensacola, Florida, stayed there 18 months.
I went to work. I took the state examination for teachers and I
passed. I lacked two points in making a second grade certificate.
Third grade certificate is the lowest. So they offered me a prin-
cipalship of a new school down there for $60 a month and I refused.
I wouldn t take it. My home was at Tuscaloosa so I went back and
visited my mother and father. I was offered a position as athletic
director of Stillman Institute. That is a Presbyterian school at
Tuscaloosa. But they only offered me $60 a month. So I turned
that down and I went back to Pensacola, Florida and I accepted a
position as chef-cook on a steamer. That is how I got my first
trip to Mexico. I went to Nicaragua, Cuba, Central America, Port
of Spain, and came up to Mexico. We brought cattle from Central
America to Vera Cruz, Mexico and made two trips. On the last trip
back, we brought a load of fruit from Nicaragua to New Orleans and
unloaded that fruit. After we unloaded it we went to Pensacola,
our home port. We closed up there and I got off. That s when I
came out here. I came to California September 22, 1922 and I ve
been here ever since.
I got off the train in San Francisco but I didn t stay there.
I came to Oakland that night, staved here two weeks and then I
went back to San Francisco.
JH: Was it difficult for you to find a Job when you came out?
Daly: Very difficult. I couldn t find anything. So I worked with a man
doing house cleaning. I had done house cleaning while going to
school. Then, after I worked with him, a man called me from San
8
Daly: Francisco and I went over there. I worked for about three or four
weeks and then when I got rid of him, I got back here to Oakland
and I started a house cleaning business of my own called the
Electric House Cleaning Company. January and February are bad
months so I got a Job working at the Oakland Lime and Cement Company,
and I worked there about 45 days. When that was over, I went back
to my house cleaning business. I continued it until 1927.
JH: How did you get customers for the electric house cleaning business?
Daly: Well, I had 2,000 cards printed with my telephone, address and
everything on it. I would distribute them in the blocks that I
would go. When 1 got these 2,000 cards, why, I took a day off and
walked from Oakland, oh, up to Yale Avenue which is the extreme
north of Berkeley. And from that day on, I had enough work to last
me. When things began to get slow, I would go out and put out five
or six hundred cards and that is the way I kept going.
JH: Did you say that you advertised in a newspaper?
Daly: Yes, I advertised in the Berkeley Gazette and either the Oakland
Tribune or the Oakland Post -Enquirer. There was a paper here at
that time called the Post-Enquirer .
JH: I see. Was your clientele any particular color?
Daly: No! I had any color for this clientele. I made no distinction.
I never thought about that; whoever called me I just went.
JH: It wasn t difficult for Negroes to afford somebody to clean their
home?
Daly: Well, that was something like it is now. There were some who were
able to do it and some who were not. If they wanted somebody, of
course they called me because I didn t make any distinction. They
all paid the same wages, you know. So I was happy to be called on.
JH: This seems like a very interesting Job.
Daly: It is and I started two other young fellows after I got out of it.
They met me, in fact they came to my office to print cards. I
talked with them about it and encouraged them. Both of them are
doing well! Both of them are doing well.
When I first started, and had bought my first piece of prop
ertymy first home, the young man three doors from me who was
born in Berkeley started a house cleaning company of his own. But
he was a failure. His wife told me, she said she couldn t see why
he was born there and couldn t make a success out of it, and I
Daly: caune there a stranger and I made a success out of it. She couldn t
understand. She used to laugh at him often but I told her it s
just the man. That was all. I came to California with determina
tion to make good. Before I left Pensacola, Florida my wife warned
me to get a round-trip ticket. She said, "Get a round-trip ticket."
I said, "No, I m going to sink or swim, live or die, but I am going
to stay." She said, Veil, get a round-trip ticket so that if you
want to come back, you can come back." I said, "No. I m going
to stay, sink or swim, live or die. That s my motto."
So when I landed in San Francisco I had thirty dollars in my
pocket and of course that boarded me. In two or three days I bad
a job working. In a day or two fl had] my first day s work. I
was rolling a wheelbarrow. Do you know what a Georgia buggy is?
JH : Yes .
Daly: Yes, and I rolled that. I was six weeks getting that $5 .60 because
the man in Oakland called me for this house work the next day, but
they sent me the money. When I got through with this man, I started
my own house cleaning company in Berkeley.
JH: Today a house cleaning business would probably run on a contract
basis. Was it that way for you?
Daly: No. I refused contracts. I don t know, I didn t want any. I
just took it as they called me and I d go out and do a day s no,
I didn t do it by the day. I did it by the job. I only charged
15^ a window that was a good price at that time. When I first
started, I carried my rags and chamois and sharp knives in a bucket.
I remember one time I had a house with about k2 windows in it.
JH: Oh boy!
Daly: That was a small amount; I d get through with that in three hours.
Later I had a house that had one hundred windows in it, 15^ a piece.
I did those windows in one day all of them in one day, yes. I did
sixty-four French doors and windows in a two-bedroom home in one
day.
JH: That s wonderful. Well, I was wondering how it got its name
"electric"?
Daly: My wife named it "Electric House Cleaning Company."
JH: Were you using any electric equipment?
Daly: I used a vacuum cleaner. That s the only thing I had electric, a
vacuum cleaner. I d say, "Do
you have a vacuum?" If they didn t
10
Daly: have a vacuum, I d take the vacuum with me.
Did I tell you~I think I did about the people fighting for
homes, people had to watch in their homes on Manila Avenue and Apgar
and Genoa Streets?
JH: Why don t you tell me about that?
Daly: In 1923 Mr. Burt Powell was a carrier and bought a house on Manila
Avenue. We had to protect him for three or four weeks because the
white people wanted to kill him because he moved in a white district.
So we worked for him to watch over him for a period of twenty-four
hours for about three months. After then things kind of quieted
down. And again, I think it was 1923, they changed 38th Street
and made it into MacArthur Boulevard and that s when we had to sell
Mr. Dawson s house on Market Street. He bought something else on
Apgar and we had to watch for him for two or three weeksday and
night until the thing quieted down. There was another one on
Genoa Street in the 3700 block. They put up a new house there and
a Negro moved in. The white people tried to run this colored man
out and we had to watch over him for about a month, day and night,
to keep the white people from molesting him.
JH: Do you mean his neighbors had to watch?
Daly: Yes, his neighbors and friends.
JH: How did his Negro neighbors watch?
Daly: Somebody would just go there and sit there for so many hours. This
man would go and sit for five hours and another one would go and
sit four or five hours and another one four or five hours until
things got quiet.
JH: Well, what made the white people respect the ones who were watching?
Daly: They had guns. They had the difference. A loaded gun.
JH: What was the police department s role in this situation?
Daly: Well, they didn t do anything. They didn t ever put anybody there
to watch for them. If anything happened, then they d come. But
they didn t just put a watchman there nil the time.
JH: Did these incidents have anything to do with your wanting to go
into real estate?
Daly: No, none whatsoever. A friend persuaded me to go into real estate.
I went to school and took it up and passed my examination. That s
11
Daly: why I went into real estate. I ve done very well with it. I
don t regret going into it. It carried not only myself over, but
it carried The Voice over, too. It was ny real estate that carried
The Voice over at that time, because it didn t have enough income
to live.
JH: When did you go into real estate?
Daly: About 193k.
JH: Were there that many Negro real estate men in the 20s?
Daly: No. When I came there weren t over let s see, there were only
four Negro real estate brokers when I came here. Some others became
real estate brokers after I came in. I mean there were only four
that were giving full time.
JH: Do you remember their names?
Daly: Errol Marshall and Ellis West . Mr . West is now living and Mr .
Marshall is now deceased. Mr. Ross was another.
JH: Is this the same Marshall that once owned The Voice?
Daly: That s right, yes. He was a real estate broker when I came in. He
was the one that I purchased my first home from.
12
IV PRINCE HALL MASONRY
JH: I also know that soon after you arrived in California you joined
the Masons.
Daly: No, I was here five years before I joined the Masons. I came here
in 22 and I joined the Masons in 28. January of 28.
JH: May I ask what a Mason is?
Daly: A Mason is a craftsman. Well, it is supposed to look out after its
members those who are not working. They would try to get jobs
for the other Masons. It was a fraternal organization and is sup
posed to be the highest fraternal organization in the world.
JH: Did you join the Prince Hall Masons or
Daly: Yes, Prince Hall, F. and A.M.
JH: Is it a mixture of racial groups or is it confined to one?
Daly: Well, mostly it i confined to one, but there are some few white
people in it.
JH: Well, your craft was then house cleaning, wasn t it?
Daly: No, that was altogether different. They called it a craft. I ll
tell you this much, they call it a craft because of the emblem on
a Mason s tool. You see, there is a square and compass. That s
the emblem of a Mason.
JH: Oh. I wonder what s the significance of a square and compass?
Daly: You are supposed to be able to work with them. There are certain
things that they ask you and you answer and then they know that
you are a Mason.
13
JH: Are these symbolic things?
Daly : Yes .
JH: Oh, I was thinking of the actual tool.
Daly: The actual tool? Well, no, it s the emblem. Say, you have
it on your watch fob or you might have it on a ring, see, and
things like that.
JH: So Masons had their special emblem.
Daly: Yes, all fraternal organizations have their own personal emblem.
JH: Can you tell me about other criteria used in order to admit a
person into the Masons?
Daly: Oh yes. You have to work in. What they call "work in" are certain
motions you go through in order to get admitted. Now suppose I was
in trouble and I was a Mason and I would come to someone s house
and I d see his light. I would stand outside and say certain things
and that man, if he heard it, would come to the window or to the
door. He d invite me in and then I would tell him my problem and he
would help me.
JH: Did you know that Earl Warren was a Mason?
Daly: Yes.
JH: Did the fact that you were Masons ever bring you in contact with
each other?
Daly: Oh, at times. But they would see my pin; they would know. He d
never discuss it. Sometimes somebody would say, Veil, I see that
you re a traveler," and I said, "Yes." Sometimes a fellow would
say, "Oh, I see you ve been raised," and I d answer him and he d
know right off.
Oh yes, I met Masons in Africa and they were from America and
they hailed me, and I met Shriners over there and talked to them.
I walked into some place and I went over and sat down. I hadn t
met them yet, but one of them saw my pin. He came over there and
talked with me and he invited me to come over and talk with him and
his wife. We had lunch together, I think, twice after that.
JH: What s the difference between a Mason and a Shriner?
Daly: You have to be a Mason to be a Shriner. A first Mason carries
through to third degree three degrees. Then you take other degrees
and you go to the eighteenth degree. That s called a consistory.
They wear those long plumes and round caps. Some of them wear the
caps with the plume in it or just the round caps. I always wear
the round cap. Want me to show you one?
JH: I would like to see one later.
Daly: Well, I m going to show it to you now because I might forget it.
JH: OK.
Did you say that this
Daly: This is the seven district cap. The northern district has a double
eagle on it.
JH: Are these districts in a city or
Daly: In the country.
JH: I see. What is it you are not supposed to tell me? [Laughs]
Daly: Oh, lots of things. You see, this is the cap you wear, you see?
JH: Yes. It looks good on you.
Daly: Now this is supposed to be brass. I ve never polished it. I ve
had it since about, oh, kk, somewhere around there.
JH: That very same cap?
Daly: Yes.
JH: How often did you meet?
Daly: Oh, about twice a month.
JH: You told me that you went all the way up to what degree?
Daly: I went to the 32nd degree. That s the Shriner s. That s the
highest that you are supposed to get unless you do something
meritorious. Now my lodge wanted to give me a 33rd degree for
meritorious service but the people from Los Angeles wanted me to
pay for it $300. I told them I wouldn t take it. I refused empty
honors .
JH: What people were these?
15
Daly: It would be the head of the Prince Hall Masons. So they had to
take orders from them. Well, I just sent it back to them and told
them I didn t want the paid honors. I wouldn t take it.
JH: Did you say that the head of the Prince Hall Masons is in Los
Angeles?
Daly: Yes. The Grand Lodge meets there. And in the Eastern Star, they
have mostly women but there are some men. The men are called
patrons. I belong to an Eastern Star. I also belong to the
Knights of Pythias organization. Court of Calanthe are the sisters
of the Pythians. I used to belong to the Odd Fellows. I always
belonged to three different organizations: the American Legion,
the V.F.W., and members of World War I.
JH: Can you tell us more about the Odd Fellows?
Daly: The Odd Fellows is an organization composed of men and women. The
men are called the Odd Fellows and their sisters are called The
Household of Ruth. There were many organizations in California
when I came here, and they used to have great meetings during some
of their grand lodges. They are about extinct here in Oakland,
because they have gone out of circulation. There are still lodges
in Sacramento, Vallejo, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Portland, Oregon,
It was a fraternal organization which was organized in l800 in the
South and after the colored people came to the West they started
these organizations here and kept them up. I had a friend who had
been in the Odd Fellows since 1900 here in Oakland. He was a
marine from Barbados. He got off here in Oakland and started an
Odd Fellows lodge here. His name was St. Glair Moore.
The name "Odd Fellows" came from Europe. There is a white
Odd Fellows organization, but they are only national. The
colored organization is international. The whites have many times
tried to get the secret workings of the colored organization, and
even offered good sums of money, but they refuse to sell them.
JH: How are the Odd Fellows different from the Masons?
Daly: They have the same names for officers but their rituals are differ
ent. The joining fees of Odd Fellows are not as much, and their
initiations are not as severe as the Masons. But I think they are
more Christian-like than the Masons. They both are Christian;
they both come from that . But I think the Odd Fellows are more so ,
because their rituals are more religious.
JH: Were Earl Warren, Bill Knowland, or Mike Kelly Odd Fellows?
Daly: None of them were, but all were Masons.
16
JH: Do you belong to any newspaper guilds?
Daly: I belong to the NNP, National Newspaper Publishers Association.
Their headquarters is in Cleveland, Ohio. As a member I kept up
my dues until I sold out of the paper in April, 1971
17
V THE CALIFORNIA VOICE
JH: When did you buy The Voice newspaper?
Daly: On the 2?th of December, 192?, that s when I bought it. My wife was
working for the owners of The Voice at that time.
JH: Was there any competition for The Voice, in the way of other black
newspapers?
Daly: Yes! One was the Western Outlook, The New Day Informer on this side
of the bay. In 1968 I took over The New Day Informer and the
Western Outlook. I took over their interests.
JH: So at one time you owned three?
Daly: Yes, and that was in 28. In 31 I took over another one in San
Francisco and in 33 I took over another which was called The
Western Appeal. They were all Negro weeklies.
JH: Were any of them specializing, say, in labor or anything in par
ticular?
Daly: No, no. They were just papers for general circulation.
JH: Were you running just about the same articles in all of them?
Daly: No, oh no. We ran different articles. Sometimes these other papers
would get only some of the ones printed in The Voice. The Voice had
a national advertising agency and had correspondents. It had more
correspondents than the rest of them.
The rest would go down like now during the interval between
political campaigns, and when a political campaign came up, why
then they would come up too, you see? Just for that time. As soon
as the campaign was over they d go out of existence. So I bought
them over and they cleared out.
JH: So you found that you could have some kind of political influence
during these
18
Daly: Well, we had those papers organized just to get money for political
campaigns, but The Voice was a national concern. The Voice , we tried
to make it we did declare The Voice a general circulation paper
when it was organized. But the other papers weren t declared papers
of general circulation. They just started up and had a few printed
just for some advertising, see.
JH: These other ones served to give exposure to candidates?
Daly: Yes, that s all they did.
JH: What was the name of the one in San Francisco, do you remember?
Daly: The Western Appeal.
JH: Did these newspapers expose all kinds of candidates or just black
ones?
Daly: No, any kind of candidate. There were very few black candidates at
that time, very few. We had an assemblyman that ran here in Oakland.
But other than that we very seldom had a black candidate. We didn t
until just a few years ago I think in 19*+8, something like that.
Byron Rumford ran.
JH: Yes, he ran in U8.
Daly: My wife and I used our telephone to get people to come out to the
meeting on the last Sunday he was to be voted on by the community,
before he got on the ballot, tfy wife, the day before the election
at Hoover Junior High School, stayed home and used the telephone and
I went to the office and used the telephone at the office. We called
up all our friends and asked them to come out and vote for Rumford.
We were Republicans and Rumford is a Democrat . But Rumford was a
black man, see. We worked for him. He was successful and not only
that, he was a successful candidate for the assembly. He defeated
the white candidate .
JH: Did he have any strong opposition in that community meeting?
Daly: Yes. A lawyer, Attorney John Henderson was also nominated. He was
well-known in Oakland. But we only chose one of them to support
jointly in the election.
JH: At the time of Rum ford s campaign, were you owning more than one
newspaper or were you down to one?
Daly: It was only one. See, as I took them over I just let The Voice
absorb them, see. We had a tremendous circulation up until the war.
When the war came we had to drop our circulation because we couldn t
get gasoline to go out and get different things, you see. I could
19
Daly: only use one car after gas was an issue. Before the war, I could use
two cars because I could get gas .
JH: Did you do a lot of the reporting for the paper?
Daly: Yes, I did a lot of it. Anybody who had something to give, we d
report it. We didn t care who they were. We got news from all of
them, all the weekly papers. We d use that and we had our special
correspondents. We had church news that d come in and we had
fraternal organizations and we had social organizations and clubs
and different things like that. They all sent in their news.
JH: You said there weren t that many Negro candidates, I was wondering .
how much of the population was Negro at that time, in the 20s?
Daly: When I came here there were 12,800 colored people in the county, in
Alameda County.
JH: When you said that you did reporting for the paper did you mean you
went around and got stories in Alameda County?
Daly: Well, if I heard of a story, I d get it. Anyone who heard of it,
they could send it in accordingly and we d take it, see. You didn t
have to be a reporter. I ve always had a reporter s badge or a
press card and yet I didn t have to. Well, that was because I was
the publisher, and I could go and get something without price.
JH: I mentioned Earl Warren earlier. What kind of district attorney would
you say he was?
Daly: Oh, he was a fine district attorney. Very good.
JH: Did you ever have to do any reporting on his work?
Daly: No. I didn t have to. I supported him in everything he went to.
JH: You supported him with the paper?
Daly: Yes. He was always a fair man. Of course he had his prejudices.
But he didn t show this to a lot of people.
JH: How did you get to observe him to know how much he showed his
prejudice?
Daly: Well, through other people. Because with me, he was always nice to
me. Everywhere he d meet me, he was always nice to me.
JH: I see. I thought you might have known some of the other people in
his office, in his district attorney s office.
20
Daly: I never did know any of the people in his office.
JH: I ll Just take a wild stab and ask you if you knew Nathan Harry Miller?
Daly: No.
JH: You didn t?
Daly: No. I had not heard of Warren hiring any black secretaries until he
became attorney general. When he became attorney general he hired
one black secretary in Oakland under his secretary. After that
everyone had colored people in their office. Not only one, but
several.
JH: According to my notes, Warren ran a campaign for Herbert Hoover in
Alameda County. Do you remember that?
Daly: Yes, that was the first national campaign that I had been in. Hoover
made his nominating speech at Stanford University s athletic field
that had just been built. I supported Hoover with the paper. I
don t know if Warren ran the campaign. Sometimes the people who head
it don t want to be in the limelight. They work behind the scenes
and have a substitute to take their place.
JH: Who approached you about supporting Hoover?
Daly: I think it was Mark Kequa. He lived in Piedmont and passed away in
about 36.
JH: Was he a strong Republican?
Daly: Yes, he was a national committeeman .
JH: A close associate of Warren s?
Daly: Yes, he was.
JH: I d like to ask about the struggle that the Negro Pullman porters
had.
Daly: Oh yes. That started out soon after we took the paper over. That
started in about 28 or 29 and A. Philip Randolph was the head of
that. He started The Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. He is
now retired and he was from Jacksonville, Florida. He sent his
releases to me and I would give them the front page always. When
ever he came out here he always came by the office.
JH: I see. Would that mean that you came into contact with C. L. Dellums
also?
21
Daly: Yes. We were always friendly--Dellums and I all the time. Dellums
was a poor man, like myself. Dellums was always a good speaker and
a good worker in his field. He was usually well-liked. I never knew
the congressman, Ron Dellums, until two years ago, although I did
know his wife when she was a baby. I knew her mother and dad, Mr.
and Mrs. Leo Higgs, well.. I had my first real estate license under
him. He was the cause that I became a broker.
[Telephone interruption]
Now what did you say?
JH: You were saying that someone was the cause of your wanting to go into
real estate.
Daly: Oh, Leo Higgs. I got my first real estate license under him as a
salesman. He did a smart trick that would have gotten me into
trouble if I had stayed with him. So I went and got my own broker s
license .
JH: What relationship was Mr. Higgs to Ron Dellums?
Daly: He was Mr. Dellums father-in-law.
JH: Oh, that is a good bit of information that we can use. That means
that he was also a real estate broker when you first came.
Daly: No. He didn t become a real estate broker until about 1932.
JH: Going back to the Pullman porters, they had a lot of opposition, as
I understand it, from the Pullman Company.
Daly: Oh, they did! When the Pullman porters had their fight with the
Pullman Company there was here a Major Walter H. Loving of
the Philippine Conservatory of Music. He worked as an undercover
stoolie for the Pullman Company. He had an article he wanted to
publish against the Pullman porters . I took the article and I think
we charged him $25 for it. We published the article, not as news,
but as a paid article.
JH: Did you have to publish everything someone was willing to pay for?
Daly: Yes, if they pay for it, you have to publish it. But we indicated
in the paper that it was a paid article.
Then he tried to deny it and I had a photostat copy made of his
check, and I published it in the paper.
JH: Was Major Loving white or black?
22
Daly: He was black. He was real his wife was just as white as any white
woman but he still was a black man.
JH: Was he light-skinned, too .
Daly: No, he was light brown.
JH: Then was Major Loving sorry that he had published this article?
Daly: I don t know whether he was sorry or not. He was sorry when he saw
his cancelled check that he paid us and that we d said in the paper
what it was for .
JH: Oh, my I
Daly: See? Because that whitewashed it. I got up in an NAACP meeting and
told them what I had done.
JH: What was the article like?
Daly: Well, that article was the things that the Pullman Company was doing
against the Pullman porters in opposition to the union. All of it
was in opposition to the union.
JH: I wonder if there is still a copy of that? Did you keep it?
Daly: No, oh no. I couldn t keep all those papers. When we moved, why
the boys we had a room in there of papers as big as this room.
Just full of papers and they burned them all up.
JH: Do you have any idea about when Major Loving asked that this article
be published? The year?
Daly: Nineteen twenty-nine,! think, was when we published this article.
That s when they began to see that I was a race man. I was for my
people .
JH: Who are "they?"
Daly: The people here, in the community. They saw then that I was for the
colored people .
JH: Oh yes. That was early in your publishing career.
Daly: I had just [be! come editor and publisher in 1967 and this was 29.
22a
Never Against My People
By Foster Senegal
1 made up my mind never
to do anything that would be
against my people,." This is
the motto of E. A. Daly,
forme*, owns*-, of iha CAM-
FORNIA VOICE. For the last
49 years he has tried to keep
that motto.
E. A. Daly has influenced
the outcome of several politi
cal campaigns in the bay
area. In 1932, Daly called
Senator Shortridge s cam
paign manager asking for ad
vertising for the Voice. He
was turned down. Daly took
that into consideration and de
cided that the Senator wasn t
for his people. He ran a front
page statement proclaiming
that the CALIFORNIA VOICE
would not endorse Sen. Short-
ridge. When the election was
over Sen. Sbortridge lost by
250 votes.
Daly, a registered Republi
can, and his wife, Lillian,
were both instrumental in the
former 17th Dist. Assembly
man Byron Rumford s cam
paign. Daly spent hours on
his phone urging his friends
to vote for Rumford. Daly
has always been for the man,
the party came second. He
feels that it doesn t matter
whether the candidates run
ning for office are Democrat
ic or Republican, if they are
for his people then he would
support them.
Daly says: "I would rather
be a mucker working for five
dollars a day, walking around
town broke than to be a yes
man walking around town
with money in my pockets."
E. A. Daly and his wife,
Lillian, came to Oakland in
1922 from Pensacola, Florida.
Mrs. Daly began working for
Charles Tilghman, an Oakland
printer. They later acquired
E. A. DALY, Publisher, California Voice
the California Voice. Mrs.
Daly, who was the manager,
printer and bookkeeper, died
in 1967. It was she who per
suaded her husband to pur
chase the Voice in 1927. Daly
had been working in his own
business which was called the
Electric Housekeeping Co.
The CALIFORNIA VOICE
which is the oldest black-
owned newspaper in Califor
nia, was first published in
February, 1919. The charter
and incorporation papers
were issued April 19, 1919 as
a paper of general circulation.
The first publisher was Errol
Marshall. About this time
there was another paper start
ed by Dr. G. C. Coleman
named the Oakland Sunshine.
The two publishers were in
competition for 2 years. Af
ter Dr. Coleman and Marshall
decided to merge, the papers
were printed in the Voice
plant until 1922 when the
Sunshine was discarded.
Since Daly took over, the
CALIFORNIA VOICE has
been published for 44 years
consecutively.
Daly and his wife were a
young, straightforward, fight
ing couple. They fought to
gether, went to church togeth
er and always sought pleas
ures together, at a party or
club. They were always togeth
er, except at political meet
ings. "Mrs. Daly never went
to political meetings because
she disliked politics and its
doings and felt them to be
very deceiving," stated Daly.
Daly has built the Califor
nia Voice into a formidable
paper that keeps the Black
community informed.
22b
6DITORIAL
The CALIFORNIA VOICE has been protecting the in
terests of the Black Community of Oakland since 1919. Not
only has it gained fame and respect as the oldest
Black newspaper in the West, bat it has established an
image of dependability, observing its fifty-second anniver
sary this year. Under the direction of its first
publisher, Mr. Errol Marshall, the VOICE merged with an:
other Black newspaper The Oakland Sunshine, founded
in 1921 by the Rev. Dr. G. C. Coleman. The VOICE was sold
in 1927 to E. A. Daly. Daly continued the VOICE tradition of
44 years of uninterrupted publishing, Mr. Daly has sold the
CALIFORNIA VOICE to Milburn Fort, President of Multi
plex Ins. Corporation; Otho Green, President of Pacific
Training & Technical Assistance Consulting Firm; Dr. Norvel
Smith, President of Merritt College; and Louis H. Campbell,
Editor of the CALIFORNIA VOICE for the past 35 years.
John Henderson, Chairman of MOR Housing Development
Corporation, serves as a board member. We now comprise
the Voice Publishing Company, Inc.
We, of the Voice Publishing Company/ shall continue
in the tradition of service to the Bay Area black community
through an expanded newte coverage. The "New Voice" will
peak to the needs of the black community in the primary
focal areas of education, local government, criminal justice,
and black economic development. Our role as a "responsi
ble" weekly is conceived of in terms of continued advocacy
for social and institutional change, and for the sharing of
the overall community power with its black community.
We, of the "New Voice," will stress those issues that
eradicate the condition of powerlessness, and reverse tho
monetary drain from the black community. We will work
vigorously and tirelessly to expose every vestige of the in
stitutional racism that pervades our society at all levels. It s
only through such institutional change that bay area blacks
will be able to establish black-owned financial institutions.
Equal opportunity must be made to mean equal opportuni
ty to manage, own and operate the businesses that serve our
total community.
We will help develop and support responsible and rele
vant political leadership that offers positive, programmatic
solutions for the strengthening of black community partici
pation in the decision-making processes of the Oakland Uni
fied School District, the Peralta College District, the Port of
Oakland, and other local, state and federal agencies.
The policies and practices of banks, insurance compan
ies, savings and loan associations, and business corporations
will be examined in the light of their roles vis-i-vis the black
community.
We seek your support and participation in our bold new
undertaking.
23
VI ALAMEDA COUNTY POLITICS
The Kelly and Knowland Factions
JH: When did you first meet Mike Kelly?
Daly: I met Mike Kelly in January of 1928. He sent for me. He sent some
body asking and made an appointment and I went down on the appoint
ment to talk with him.
JH: When you say "down," do you mean over in San Francisco, where his
office was .
Daly: No, he had an office in Oakland. He had a furniture store on the
corner of 13th and Washington. He had a little office there where
you could go down and see him when he wasn t doing anything. The
name of the store was Sellings Furniture Store. That s where I met
him. When I wanted to see him, that s where I d go to meet him.
JH: Why did he send for you the first time?
Daly: Well, he wanted my help in electing political candidates.
JH: Mr. Kelly was a Republican, wasn t he?
Daly: Oh, yes. He was a staunch Republican, even until he passed. Well,
you see there were two factions of Republicans on the County Central
Committee; they had an opposition at all times. One faction was
called the Kelly faction, the other faction was called the Knowland
faction.
JH: Was it in reference to Joe Knowland or to Bill Knowland?
Daly: Joe Knowland. Joe Knowland at that time was the big guy.
JH: What did you think of Joe Knowland?
Daly: Well, to our people he wasn t any good.
JH: He wasn t?
Daly: No, he never was. He never hired one colored person that I knew of,
up until maybe this last war. Now there was [Delilah] Beasley and
I think she passed about 36. She used to write for the paper. She
used to have a column in there called The Negro in the Hews by Miss
Beasley.
JH: This was in the Oakland Tribune?
Daly: Yes .
JH: What else could you tell me about Miss Beasley?
Daly: Well Miss Beasley was a well-trained woman, very nice, courteous in
every way. She could entertain anyone, I don t care who they were.
She was just well-trained. I don t know where she received her
training. She was a good writer. It showed in her writing; she was
very, very good. She was a good mixer. She was from the old school.
I don t know whether she was born north of the Mason-Dixon Line or
south. I don t know. I never thought to ask her. We would sit down
and laugh and talk.
JH: Talking more about Joe Knowland, who did you know best as a person,
Joe Knowland or his son, Bill?
Daly: His son, Bill. I very seldom came in contact with the old man, with
the exception of some kind of meeting, and then we would just speak
to one another and shake hands, that s all. We never had any con
versations other than that.
JH: What did you mean when you said, "some kind of meeting?"
Daly: Well, I mean like some political meeting or we might go to some
banquet or something like that. Maybe somebody would be coming
through town, some big guy from the East, and he d speak and after
the meeting, why, we d meet up with him, you know. Well Knowland
would always be on the stage.
JH: He was on the platform?
Daly: No, I don t mean he was on the platform the speakers platform.
I remember once saying something about Mr. Knowland. Somebody said,
"Oh, there s nobody at the head of the table." And I got up and
said, "Oh, yes, there s nobody at the head but there i. a head." I
said, Vfherever Mr. Knowland sits down there s always a head." Every
body clapped for it. When Knowland sits down, you can consider it s
the head.
JH: You did mention that there were Kelly and Knowland factions.
Daly: Yes.
JH: I was just trying to understand why there were such factions.
Daly: Well, I found it that way when I came. I often wondered myself.
But each one of them had in the city a certain patronage to give out,
see.
JH : Patronage?
Daly: Patronage, you know, like positions and different things. Each one
of them did that.
JH: Would Kelly, the superintendent of the mint, have such patronage?
Daly: Yes. People would never know when he was in there a few people
knew he was in that position. But the masses didn t know it.
JH: How would you describe the two sides of the faction in terms of their
relationship to Negroes?
Daly: Well, the Kelly faction was fairer to colored people than the Know-
land faction was . The Knowlands had no interest in black people .
I know that Kelly did show his interest.
JH: Could you give me any specific examples of how he showed his
interest?
Daly: Well, when something came up he always gave them consideration. As
an appointment came up, why he would give the black man consideration
along with anybody else . But not all the time did they get it . Who
you want to get a certain position doesn t get it all the time. So
then that leaves it for somebody else; whichever one can get the most
influence that s the one that gets that position. That s politics.
JH: Were you ever able to suggest to Mr. Kelly the names for positions?
Daly: Oh, yes. I suggested several, and I suggested some white people for
offices.
JH: Do you remember any whom you suggested that did get jobs?
Daly: Oh I don t remember I know two or three. But I remember some of
the colored people .
JH: Oh, I d like to know their names.
26
Daly: There was Jesse Flowers as the head janitor of Oakland. And who was
that other fellow? I saw him this morning, too. Isn t that funny?
I can t remember.
JH: Maybe you ll remember later. Did Mike Kelly live in Oakland?
Daly: Yes, he always lived in Oakland. He lived in a hotel. I think it
was either the Oakland Hotel or the Globe, one of the two.
JH: I thought maybe you could also give me information on his background.
Daly: There was no way for me to get anything on his background other than
he was appointed head superintendent of the mint and he was there
quite a number of years, see. He was in that position when I met him.
JH: I just remember we talked about this off-tape once and that you did
say you recall he came from Virginia. I thought that was significant.
Daly: I found that out after he passed.
JH: I see. Well, that is good for us to know,
Daly: Yes, he had a sister living and all his holdings went to her. Other
than that he had no relatives. That is all I could learn about him.
The Alameda County Republican League
JH: I understand that you organized the Alameda County Republican League?
Daly: Yes. I was its first president, beginning in 1936.
JH: Why did you think one was needed?
Daly: Well, because Negroes had no organization at that time in Oakland.
So we organized, that is, the Republicans. I told you about organiz
ing the men s clubs in the churches here?
JH: No. Would you like to tell me about it?
Daly: We had a pastor by the name of Reverend Byers . He came from San
Francisco in the year 19^8 and that year we were meeting between the
different churches. I was friendly toward Mr. Ford he s buried now
and together he and I organized the first men s club in Oakland
called the Men s Club of Cooper A.M.E. Zion Church and then from that
we organized the number two club, the Beth Eden Baptist Church club.
He was a member of Beth Eden and I was a member of Cooper Zion, and
27
Daly: I went with him to help him organize there. Then the next one was
North Oakland Baptist Church. We organized that, and then the next
one was First A.M.E. Church.
JH: Did these men s clubs work in the community in any way?
Daly: For the church, for the benefit of the church, that s all. We were
a church organization. All of them are going on now. All of them.
And other churches since then have organized men s clubs.
JH: Who were some of the other first members of the Alameda County
Republican League?
Daly: Oh, a man by the name of Leslie McFarlane and Mr. Ford and Mr. Jones,
Louis Jones. He s still living. McFarlane is deceased. And let me
see, who else now? I know somebody but I can t call his name. He s
been dead so long. Another McFarlane, he s dead too. He was a cousin
to this other McFarlane. He ran for the assembly.
JH: Did you work for Mr. McFarlane in terms of backing him with the paper
and so forth?
Daly: Yes.
JH: Do you remember what year that was?
Daly: Oh, that vas about 1931
*.
JH: You have a good memory.
Daly: Thank you.
JH: Were there any women working in the Republican League?
Daly: Yes. Mrs. Lillian Dixon was one and Mrs. Frances Albrier. You know
her, don t you?
JH: Yes.
Daly: I think after that Mrs. Albrier went to the Democrats. I m not sure
but I think she became a Democrat. I ve voted for a Democrat but
I m still registered Republican.
Let me see now. There were so many people. You know you can t
remember oh, there was George Vaughns; he was in it. There was one
white fellow in it. He helped us organize it. He s dead now too.
I can t think of his name.
JH: I wonder why he was so interested in this organization. He must
have been unusual.
28
Daly: He was and he worked with us all the time. He told us a whole lot
of things to do politically.
JH: What was his occupation?
Daly: I don t know what his occupation was. He helped us to do a lot of
things; he helped the club get ahead politically.
JH: Can you give me a for instance?
Daly: Well, he told us what to do to get certain finances. And he was
against the Knowlands, see. Through this club, he could get back
at the Knowlands. He could go into the white neighborhoods and
come back and give information to us. That way, he helped us and
he fought the Knowland faction.
JH: Were you all against the Knowlands, too, at the time?
Daly: [Laughs] Yes. They were white. They were always against us! What
we did, we did it to advance colored people, not white people at all,
see. This white fellow was with us and he gave us some inside dope
on what to do. He told me the difference between offensive politics
and defensive politics. [Laughs] I know what defensive politics is,
but I didn t know what offensive was. I knew the meaning of it but
I d never seen it done.
You know, they call it offensive fighting when someone sends
out a postal card or sends out a letter and tells a lot of things
against you. Maybe it would be somebody in your party, using an
other name. Things like that.
But I never believed in throwing a rock and hiding your hand.
Let your hand stay out there and show who did it. My motto is I ll
try to live every day [so] that I can look everybody in the eye
and tell him to go to hell! That was my motto and I mighty nigh
did it.
JH: Were you, as you worked with this white fellow and the group, able
to make any decisive moves in politics?
Daly: Yes, we did. He helped me to defeat Charles W. Fisher. He was the
one who enabled the association and me to defeat Fisher, see, be
cause we knew just what Fisher had done against colored people. He
gave me the idea. I d never done any politics much. I just voted
for different candidates .
JH: Maybe we should mention what year that was that Fisher ran.
Daly: Nineteen thirty-six. He ran for U.S. Congress from the 7th District.
JH: What had Fisher done against Negroes?
Daly: Charles Fisher served 3 terms as an assemblyman from the 17th
assembly district. After that, he ran for Congress against Congress
man John H. Toland. Mr. Toland had been in about 2 terms then. Mr.
Fisher had gone to court to keep a black man from living in a home
he bought on Mandana Boulevard. In back of this house, the property
was at an angle of ^5 degrees; there couldn t be a street on it. But
Fisher took this man to court, using the need of a street as an ex
cuse. The judge ruled in favor of Fisher and made the black man
move out .
Then they sold the house to someone else. About six years later,
when Fisher ran for Congress, a friend got for me several articles
Mr. Fisher wrote. In them, he said, "The only good thing I got out
of this was to keep an undesirable out of the district." This black
man was quite a wealthy man. I got these letters written by Fisher
to his constituents, and I got money from Mr. Toland to defeat him.
Fisher had a majority in only one precinct and that was number one
in West Oakland.
JH: After you realized that you had to go to work on this, what exactly
did you do?
Daly: I helped to assimilate the information and I interceded to get the
funds to print these circulars 50,000 circulars to go into 8l
precincts. After I printed them, why then I got the men and women
to distribute them in their precincts.
JH: What was the man s name against whom Fisher was running?
Daly: John Toland; he s now deceased. I got the first black face at a
post office window in Oakland, 1936, through John Toland. That was
the first time that ever a black face appeared at a post office
window there in Oakland.
JH: How did you get it?
Daly: Through John Toland, the congressman.
JH: I mean, did you just recommend this person to him?
Daly: Yes. I told him I was sending him somebody down and I wanted him to
see that he got appointed and of course he did. And he employed him
at the window. Well, I told him what had not been done, and so at
that time he appointed him at the window. His window was at the
10th Street Post Office, there wasn t a name for it there. But
after that year, they employed Negroes everywhere else, see.
JH: I know it s been a long time but I thought you may remember the
Negro s name who was first appointed.
30
Daly: His name was Taylor, and they d call him Mandelu. He had a restaurant
he called Mandelu Taylor. Mandelu was the name of his restaurant,
but his name was John Taylor I think that was his name but I know it
was Taylor.
JH: OK. All right.
Daly: Isn t it funny I can t think of his name? I ve got a mirror picture
of him. He was a big fellow, real fair, and he would talk a lot,
you know.
JH: I understand also you had a chance to influence Samuel Shortridge s
campaign, in 1932?
Daly: Yes. Mr. Knowland, Sr. was his candidate manager and managing adver
tising man and I went to him for some advertising, but he refused me.
On the last week, why, I went against Shortridge. He lost in the
district by about 250 votes.
So I contributed that much to The Voice. If I had gone for him
he would have gotten that many votes, or more. But I went against
him and he lost by 250 votes and I printed up on the front page
"Shortridge lost by 250 votes," and of course everybody knew The
Voice had gone against him, see. So they give me the credit for
defeating him.
JH: These were black votes that helped to defeat him?
Daly: Yes.
JH: When you asked for an advertisement, you were asking it of Shortridge;
you wanted to back him?
Daly: Yes. After he didn t give it to me, I went out. I went back to the
office in time for the paper to come out and I just wrote an editorial
and put it on the front page, an article against Shortridge.
JH: You wrote it yourself?
Daly: Yes, with my wife.
JH: You got the impression that he didn t want you to back him?
Daly: I got the impression that Shortridge wanted our support. It was
Knowland who didn t want it, see? Knowland didn t want to give the
paper anything for supporting him. He didn t want to put an adver
tisement or anything in a black paper. That s the idea I got, see.
JH: Were you able to talk with Shortridge soon after that or before it?
31
Daly: No, I never did RO to him for anything. No, I was through with him.
I had no use for him after that .
JH: I was just wondering what did he have to do with that? Do you think
that Joe Knowland got his orders from Shortridge?
Daly: Well, Joe Knowland was his campaign manager and he did like he wanted,
see. I did like !_
wanted. I didn t like Knowland s attitude, so I
just went against him. I had headlines, "Senator Shortridge loses
by 250 votes."
JH: My next question concerns the time when Bill Knowland decided not to
run again for the California senate in 1938.
Daly: You mean the state senate?
JH: That s right. How were you able to influence him not to run?
Daly: [Chuckles] Well, after the primary, he called a meeting of Republi
cans in preparation for the next year. This was in the Athen s
Athletic Club. There were only two black faces present E. B. Gray
and myself. Mr. Knowland wanted to say (but he wasn t sure) that I
had used Republican money to defeat a Republican [Fisher]. After
wards, he asked if I would like to say a few words.
I said, "Thank you, Senator, I would."
And he sat down. He said, "You have the floor."
So when he sat down, I stood up. I nearly talked about ten
minutes and I said, "in conclusion, Senator, you come up next year
for re-election. Gene Roland, who lost to you in 193** by a plurality
of thirty-two votes is now deceased. Miss Beasley is now deceased
and 1^
have that influence in the district and I *m going to use it and
see that you are defeated!"
JH: Knowland got the thirty-two votes.
Daly: Yes, Knowland got the thirty-two votes. Miss Beasley and myself
secured for him those votes in the primary over Gene Roland. There
were three people running, but those were the two prominent candi
dates: Roland and Knowland. So when it was over, he got it by
thirty-two votes. When I told him that, he looked at me.
After the meeting was over, Assemblyman Arthur Breed, Jr. came
to me and we were talking. He said, "Oh, Mr. Daly, those were strong
words. That was very extra strong language!"
I said, "Assemblyman, I knew it was strong language. But I
meant it. I don t have any money but I have two good feet and I
32
Daly: could walk over every inch of the land in the district and I d beat
him! I d get those votes against him!"
And he said, "Gee, that s strong language!"
And Knowland didn t run. After he didn t run, I went to Mr.
Breed and asked him to run for the senate and he said, "I
would, if
I can get things arranged." And as soon as he got things arranged
he wrote me a nice letter thanking me for offering my support . He
said, "I ll never forget you."
Senator Breed was always nice to me. He never cared about
colored people in general. He never was interested in whether they
did anything or not .
JH: So Knowland ended up not even running the second term for senate?
Daly: Yes, that s right.
JH: Just why didn t you want to support him?
Daly: Because he tried to punish me because I defeated a Republican, Fisher.
He did say he told someone else (I got it through the grapevine) that
I defeated a Republican with Republican money. But I didn t use
Republican money to defeat Fisher. I went to the Democrat candidate
for congressman, who was John Toland, and I told him the situation.
I said, "I would like to get a certain amount of money. I need
the money to print 50,000 circulars. We will circulate them ourselves.
And he gave me the money and I printed them in my shop. I got what
the congressman had done for the last two years in Congress and I got
what Fisher had done the last two years in the assembly. I put the
two articles in different classifications on only one page. John
Toland on the left and Fisher on the right. (I m going to see if I can
find one of those now.) And we defeated Fisher. Do you know Mrs.
Lillian Dixon?
JH : Yes .
Daly: I think she and I signed the material. I m going to 36th Street and
see if I can get it. It s in that old safe I got there.
JH: Fine.
33
The Republican County Central Committee
Daly: The Republican County Central Committee, originally, when I first
came in, was a two-unit organization. The Knowlands had one faction
and Mike Kelly had the other. Whichever one held or secured a
majority of the votes controlled the County Central Committee.
JH: How many people were on the committee?
Daly: There were six assemblymen and each assemblyman had one county
committeeman. So there were six county committeemen in each assembly
district.
JH: Who was assemblyman from your district, when you were on the commit
tee in 1932?
Daly: Oh, let me see. Who was it? Clif Wixson. He was the assemblyman
at that time .
JH: Is there anything you can tell me about him?
Daly: Well, Clif Wixson was a businessman and he had a big store and a lot
of property in Emeryville. A very nice fellow to colored people.
They could go to him and get assistance from him when they needed.
He was very courteous to people . I helped to put him in as supervisor
in Alameda County.
He came to me and told me, "Mr.
Daly, I am going out of office.
I m not running next year." He said, "Come down, I want to talk
with you." He did something for the paper each year. I went down
and he did what he said he would do. He gave me a page of advertis
ing each year that he was supervisor.
JH: Did you work closely with Wixson?
Daly: I did during his election. That s the only time I d work with him,
of course. Anything that came up for his benefit and I knew it,
why of course I would pass it on to him. But I wasn t a paid worker
for him, like some people would pay somebody to work for them.
JH: Was Clif Wixson in the assembly until 1936?
Daly: In 1936 he was in the assembly, yes. In 1937 he ran for supervisor.
He became the supervisor of the fifth district in Oakland. That s
when I came in contact with him, because I supported him.
JH: Did Wixson fight against gambling in Emeryville?
Daly: No. I ve never known him to say anything against or for gambling.
He owned a big liquor store at the corner of Haven and 3**th Streets.
But he was a very nice man.
JH: Earl Warren fought to abolish gambling, didn t he?
Daly: Yes, he fought gambling, but yet there was gambling at almost an arm s
throw from the county courthouse . [Laughter ] But you find that in
every city, though. There are just places that run gambling, and
people don t bother them. Gambling has always been open in Emery
ville .
Wixson was liked by Negroes. I always got advertisements for
John Mullins, Walter Davis and Wixson.
JH: Mullins and Davis were supervisors too?
Daly: Yes. John Mullins was supervisor when I came to California. And
then Davis defeated Mullins, and later Wixson defeated Davis. I was
for Mullins when he ran against Davis. I went to Mullins apartment
and said, "You will need every iota of publicity you can get from now
unto the end of the campaign." So he said, "Oh
no, Brother Daly.
I ll win, and I ll win thumbs down." So I said, "You may have thumbs
down but you may not win." And sure enough, he lost.
JH: Wasn t he popular?
Daly: The people liked him but he was running against a younger man who out-
talked him. Davis was just out of the University of California, and
it was the first office he had ever run for.
Well, the central committeemen worked closely with the chairman
of the committee, which would be one of the committee members elected
by the central committee. Neither Kelly nor Knowland voted.
JH: I see. Both of those men were on the committee, too?
Daly: No, they were advisers. What you did when you got on the central
committee was get together, but the committee didn t function as it
was supposed to, because the chairman didn t allow them to. He
would give them something, take whatever he wanted to, and say,
"These are the things we want to work on." And if he wanted he d
work on them. He d either work them up or down. That s the way
things went .
The chairman also called meetings together to get the workers
for the different candidates and to put out literature and so forth .
So he would have all his meetings and you d know about his meetings,
when they were and where they were . Of course most of us would go
to these meetings. It didn t matter where they were in the county,
35
Daly: we went. And then down we d go to the lower part of the county for
his meetinR.
I remember n Democrat had passed away nnd we went to Manteca to
help elect nnd work for a Republican down there. And he was success-
I ul. He is now in the cabinet Nixon s cabinet.
JH: Do you want to give his name?
Daly: Moynihan, I think is his name. I am not sure now. But he was the
assemblyman from Manteca Manteca and Stockton.
JH: What made you decide to run for this committee?
Daly: Oh, no colored man had been on there before. So I just thought I d
try it. Two of us got on, Roy Blackburn and myself. Roy s name was
third on the list and my name was ninth on the list. But I came in
I think I came in third. Either third or fourth. But so far as the
name, I was outside of the voting, that is, the number that was on
the list . You see , there are only six on it to be elected and there
were about eight names on the ballot.
JH: You did pretty well!
Only: Yes and the two colored people were Roy Blackburn and Daly, E. A. Daly,
They were the two that wot on the committee. And I stayed on there.
I think I got on there four different times. I got on in 32 and
stayed on until 36. And I got off. I started to run and then my
wife took sick and I said it would be too much on me to try to run and
to look after my wife. So I didn t run. Well, after she got up in
"U2 I ran again and I got on. I stayed on for four years then.
After that I got off and I haven t been on since. I haven t tried to
get on again.
JH: When you decided to run for the County Central Committee, what did
you have to do to campaign for yourself?
Daly: Well, I had to send out letters and do different advertising in
papers and go to all the meetings that I could possibly make.
JH: Of the party?
Daly: In the district. For the party, yes.
JH: Maybe ve could talk about those four years that you were on the
committee in 19^2 through 19^6. I was wondering who was controlling
the committee, more or less, then?
Daly: Mr. Knowland, he had control of it.
36
JH: But of course Kelly had died by then, hadn t he?
Only: Kelly died in l^kk. He was the first white man in his death I ever
felt hurting.
JH: You attended his funeral?
Daly: Yes. I attended Edgar Kaiser s funeral, too. He was a very nice
man a very nice man, considerate of everybody. There are some good
white people and there are plenty bad ones. Same with us. There
are some good black ones and plenty bad ones .
The black community liked Mike Kelly, so far as they knew him.
Not too many of them knew him. He didn t get by like Knowland. He
didn t show himself like Knowland did. Knowland never has been a
favorite among Negroes. Well, he is a favorite among a few a few.
But I know he s a man of power. You do or you don t, with him. If
you don t do like he says and he disagrees with you he never feels
the same toward you. That s his attitude. He never forgives a
person .
JH : How were you able to make that estimation of him?
Daly: [Laughs] Well, he and I got into several arguments. I never could
do anything with him after that. Well, the first thing was Mike
Kelly came to me and asked me to vote with him and of course I said
yes. He told me the situation and that it would be better for Negroes
if he got it. But you don t always get what you go out after.
So then Mr. Knowland called me up and asked me to come down; he
wanted to talk. So I went down and we talked about thirty minutes.
And he said to me, "Mr.
Daly, I want you to vote with me. Mr. Kelly
is an older man now. He s going out and I m coming in." He said,
"I d like to have your support." He looked up at the clock and said,
"it s two o clock now and I d like to know by three-thirty."
So I said, "Mr. Knowland, that s a might short time to decide
such a question as that. However, if I can decide in that time I ll
let you know." He said, "Call me by three-thirty." I said, "All
right. Now if I don t call you, you ll know that I couldn t make the
decision in that length of time." And I didn t call him and I haven t
called him from that day to this.
JH: This was Mr. Knowland?
Daly: Yes, Bill Knowland. This meeting with him took place in 1936.
JH: How was he asking you to vote with him? On the County Central Com
mittee?
37
Daly: Yes, on the committee. He wanted me to vote for Charles Fisher. He
wanted to carry a majority I mean, he wanted to carry all the com
mittee. He carried four and two of them were dissenting, another
fellow and myself. We didn t vote with him. The other colored
fellow that voted for him is still working for the city hall, too.
JH: Mr. Blackburn?
Daly: Yes. But if I had gone and voted with him, why, I probably would
have gotten a lot of more favors from Mr. Knowland, see. But I
didn t look for any favor because I was a man able to work doing
things to make a living. I didn t believe in bowing to people that
weren t going to do anything for you anyhow.
JH: What side of the Kelly-Knowland faction was Earl Warren on?
Daly: Oh, he was a Knowland man.
JH: Since you usually voted with Kelly on the County Central Committee,
did you ever have to go against Warren?
Daly: Oh no. I supported him for attorney general and for governor. I
never went against anyone because I didn t agree with him completely.
If he was as good as anyone else, I voted for him.
JH: When Warren ran for governor in 19^*2 , did the committee make plans
and strategy to get him elected?
Daly: Yes, but Warren was always a popular candidate. He carried the
Democratic and Republican parties . And because of that , they changed
the law that you could run on only one ticket. Warren was just that
strong .
Although he didn t do so much against colored people, he didn t
do much for them. He was asked once to appoint Walter A. Gordon as
deputy D.A. , and he told the person that the time wasn t right for
that.
JH: Did he ever appear in meetings of the County Central Committee?
Daly: No. And Warren never lost an election to my knowledge.
JH: What was the Republican party s stand on FEPC in 19^6 when Warren ran
for re-election?
Daly: "Yes,"
as I remember.
38
VII GOODWIN J. KNIGHT
JH: Perhaps we can talk about Goodwin Knight now.
Daly: Goodwin Knight?
JH: Yes.
Daly: Goodwin Knight was a very nice fellow. A nice talker and he always
met you with a smile he did me, at least. He was always pleasant.
He would give you his undivided attention. He had people that he
liked and some that he disliked, like anybody else. But I always felt
that he had something other than Caucasian blood in him. He married
a very beautiful woman, a Swedish girl and she was very nice. I
remember once they had an open house at the governor s mansion and
that happened to be my second time to an open house and she announced
proudly that "Mr. Daly is my personal escort." So I escorted her all
around the home. They had a very nice home. But this governor
[Ronald Reagan] wouldn t accept it. Said it was nothing but a fire-
trap. Well, it is a beautiful place--umch more beautiful inside than
outside.
JH: What made you think that Goodwin Knight had something other than
Caucasian in his blood?
Daly: Some things that he would do and say the whole thing.
JH: It would be very useful to me because it leaves a question in our
minds .
Daly: Yes.
JH: It sounds like a very interesting aspect of the man.
Daly: Well, I ll tell you, Knight was kind of different from the average
white person and he was very dark in color dark complexioned, black
hair. And his wife was dark, with dark hair, rosy, robust skin.
You know, some people look at you differently, some white people
39
Daly: especially. They look at colored people in a certain way, as fif ]
they re looking down on them. Well, that s the way Mr. Knowland
always did. But Governor Knight always looked straight at you. So
that was one of the things that I admired about him. He never looked
down at you. He always looked eye to eye.
JH: Were you ever able to have conversations with him that revealed
something about his character?
Daly: Well, one time he was talking to me and he said, "Mr.
Daly, you know,
I ve always been among Negroes all my life. I grew up among them."
JH: Oh, where had he grown up? Do you know?
Daly: I guess in Los Angeles.
JH: How do you think the Republican party felt about him?
Daly: Oh, they liked him. The only reason he didn t have two terms in the
governor s mansion was because Mr. Knowland wanted to be governor in
1958 so he could jump from there to the presidency. See? But Mr.
Knowland pushed Knight out by not giving him his support for the
governorship.
When Knowland decided to run for governor he just pushed Knight
out and wouldn t let him run for re-election! Made him run for U.S.
Senator; well, he lost that. And Mr. Knowland lost, too. Mr. Know-
land couldn t be elected governor. He couldn t be elected governor!
People wouldn t elect him. But they would have sent him back to the
U.S. Senate and from there he could have easily been elected the
president of the United States. But see, Knowland tried to take a
shortcut and get there while he was a young man. He didn t even
want to wait his time. So that put him out. And of course he was
busy at "the right to work." I believe in the right to work for
anybody. But I didn t believe in the right as he liked it. He
wanted the right to work, and then put a person under the union and
the union tell you where you can work. Well, I wanted anybody
to go anyplace and get a job that he was qualified for.
JH: Were you able to talk to Knight during this time, when the party was
deciding who was going to run?
Daly: I did once. But it was very short, and then there was somebody else
around. I didn t get to speak my opinion to him about it. He
couldn t say very much. But he promised he d see me again sometime.
I got two or three letters from him and he told me he decided
not to run. He wrote me and asked me if I would support him, and I
told him that "if
you run, I d support you." I said, "I ve always
Daly: supported you and I wouldn t let you down. I d give you ray unstinted
support." I got a nice letter from him.
JH: This was when?
Daly: Just before he decided not to run the last time. He would have run
when Reagan first ran in 1966 . But he decided not to run . You know
he s deceased now.
JH: Yes, I know.
Daly: Oh. I wanted to tell you that in 1932 we had a lynching in California,
JH :
Really?
Daly: Yes. A white man in San Jose stole a horse and they caught him with
the horse and the people down there lynched him. Governor Rolph was
governor at that time. His advisors didn t get to him soon enough
and so the reporters came in and asked him to make a statement and
he said, "Yes, they ought to have lynched him!" After that they
called lynching "rolphing" because Governor Rolph condoned lynching.
JH: But eventually an anti-lynching bill was passed.
Daly: Oh, yes; that is right.
JH: I was told that Bill Knowland was the man who introduced that bill
in the assembly.
Daly: I don t know. I don t know.
JH: Do you have any idea when it was passed?
Daly: No. I have no idea of that.
JH: It must have been after 1932 because this lynching that happened in
San Jose wasn t illegal.
Daly: 1932.
JH: It wasn t illegal?
Daly: No, it wasn t illegal.
JH: I see.
Daly: They called it "rolphing" that was the name of the governor at that
time.
JH: Yes. Going back to Knight, when Knight was lieutenant governor did
he seem to want to be governor?
Daly: Oh yes. He very much wanted to be. But he wouldn t dare do anything
against Warren. He was very loyal to Warren.
Knight became governor when Warren was appointed Chief Justice
of the Supreme Court.
JH: So he got his wish.
Daly: Yes. And he served out Warren s term, about a year and a half, and
then he ran and was elected himself. Then he wanted another term
and Knowland beat him out. Knowland got the nomination because they
wouldn t give him [Knight] the finances to run with. But Knowland
didn t become the governor and I was exceptionally glad.
JH: Did Richard Nixon have anything to do with the big switch between
Knowland and Knight in 1957?
Daly: I don t know, but I was told by another party that Nixon and Knowland
pushed Knight out and caused him to be defeated. They told him if
he ran for governor, they wouldn t give him any Republican money.
At that time Governor Pat Brown ran for governor, but he wouldn t
have run against Knight because they were personal friends. And if
Knight had run, he would have been in there two terms.
Richard Nixon is a ruthless guy. They call him "Tricky Dick"
and that s what he is. I worked for him when he got in the Senate.
I supported him with the paper, went to his meetings, and talked for
him. He was in the Senate one term and then ran for the vice
presidency.
JH: When did you start believing he was tricky?
Daly: After he ran for vice president and again when he came back to
California to run for governor. It came out then.
JH: I would like to ask you about the time that you went to Goodwin Knight
and asked for a Negro judge.
Daly: Oh. I went up about 10 o clock in the morning and announced myself
to the governor and the governor came in. He sent for me to come into
his office. I went and talked with him. After we talked a few min
utes, I said, "Governor, I would like for you to give us a black
judge in the north." He said, "Mr. Daly, I d do that. I d be glad
to." I said, Veil, now, tell me what I should do to comply with my
request to you."
He said, "You go back to Oakland and you get four people and
yourself and decide on who you want. Now the five must be unanimous
1*2
Daly: no opposition, and then I ll appoint him."
Now that was on a Tuesday. I left on Wednesday night for
Columbus, Ohio (there was n press meeting, NNP press meeting) and
when I got there, the next day I was talking to [Jeff] Beavers
Beavers or [Carltonl Goodlett one of those two. I rather think it
was Goodlett. We were talking. He said, "Mr. Daly, why can t we
have a judge in the north?"
I said, "Oh, yes, that s a good subject. I ll tell you what
I ll do. I ve been promised if I do a certain thing we will get a
judge in the north."
I told him just what the governor said. And I said, "You go
back and get the committee together . When I come in I 11 contact
you."
Then he said, "Do
you have any objection to George?" I said,
"George Vaughns?" He said, "Yes, do you have any particular person
you would like to recommend?
"
I said, "No one in particular."
He said, "All right. Would you recommend George?"
I said, "Yes, I d recommend George. I have no particular
person."
He said, "if
you know George, I d be glad to nominate him."
And I said, All right."
I said, "That s understood?" He said, "Yes."
I said, V/ell I am going on from here to Pittsburgh and then to
New York and New Jersey. If you want my address in New York City,
I
*
m going from there home . I 11 be back in two weeks . When I get
back I am going to contact you."
When I got back I was approached by one of the committee that
he had formed in fact it was a brother of George Vaughnsand he told
me just what happened. He said they had called a meeting of four
people and had called the governor in without waiting for me . Governor
Knight came in and he said, Where s Mr. Daly?" Nobody said a word.
He got up and walked out.
So when this fellow told me this, I contacted the governor and
told him just how this thing happened.
I said, "I m wiping my hands off of it. However, I m asking
that you appoint a Negro as judge in the north."
1*3
Daly: He said, "All right, Mr. Daly, I ll do that."
So then, in about n month nfter that he appointed John Bussey
municipal .judge in San Francisco, and he couldn t have appointed a
better man! I don t care who he was, white or black. Because Bussey
had made more lawyers in California than any other one man. He
passed more lawyers in the state of California than any other man
in the state he was teaching men how to pass the bar. And Knight
appointed him and I said, "Governor, you couldn t have appointed a
better man." And he appreciated it. We were always friends.
JH: When did Knight appoint John Bussey?
Daly: During the latter part of his term. In 1957 or 58.
JH: You also said that Knight continued a radio program until his death?
Daly: Yes. He had a radio program. Oh, he got $100,000 a year on this
program .
JH: What was the program like?
Daly: I don t remember. I Just talked with him. I used to get it on the
radio sometimes by accident. I didn t know which station he was on.
Sometimes I d pass something on radio and I d accidentally get him
nnd I d recognize his voice.
JH: A sort of a talk program?
Daly: No, it wasn t a talk program, it was a regular program of news and
everything. I don t know whether it was his or what. He was on that
as long as he wanted it.
JH: When did you meet him?
Daly: I met him when he became lieutenant governor.
JH: Is there anything else you can tell me about Governor Knight?
Daly: That s all I can tell you. That s all I know. I was never turned
down when I went to see him. He never told me to go, that he didn t
have time or his time was out. As soon as I was announced and not
over ten minutes, I got to see the governor. Whenever I d go to any
body I d never go to them for myself. It was always for someone
else. And that s the way it s been here in the city.
JH: I get the impression that you were able to go to politicians and
talk to them in other people s stead.
Daly: Yes, I was, because in their campaigns I d always do something for
them and some of them would always go to the top. But I never waited
on that. I just felt if I could do them any good I would go to them,
see. Nothing weighed on what I had done to them or for them. I
always went to them simply because I felt that I was able to do some
thing for somebody else and that s the only reason I would go to them.
VIII EDMUND G. BROWN
JH: I understand that you advised Governor Brown to run for the third
time.
Daly: Oh yes. In a talk once with Governor Brown, we were talking and
laughing and he said, "How do you feel about me making a third term?"
I said, Vfell I think you could be a successful third-term
candidate, and I d like to see you run again."
He said, "Oh,
do you?"
I said, "I
surely do and I hope you run."
He said, "Thank you, Mr. Daly. I m going to run."
And his son I didn t meet his son until he ran for secretary
of state. His dad called me up on the telephone, ex-Governor Brown
called me up and said, "Mr. Daly, I m talking to you about my son,
Junior." He said, "I want you to endorse him."
I said, "is he your son, Governor?" His father laughed and he
said, "Yes." I said/^ell, I ll go for him if he is like you." He
said, "Yes,
he is just like me." I said, "OK, if he is like you I ll
support him."
So I supported him. But I never met him until this year. Every-
time he came up here I was doing something else. I was always at
another meeting or out-of-town.
JH: Why do you think Governor Brown didn t win the third time?
Daly: Because the last two weeks Brown gave up. He just talked as though
he was frightened to death. That was what 1^
said about it. He didn t
talk like he had any inclination that he was going to win!
JH: It must have seemed strange for all of you who were supporting him.
Daly: Yes, people hnted it when they saw it.
JH: This was his run against Reagan V
Daly: Yes. But he got two terms.
JH: Well one other question, just before we close, do you consider your
self a conservative or a liberal?
Daly: Conservative.
JH: Would you like to define that for me?
Daly: Well, I define conservative as any person or organization who looks
forward to the least expense, least expenditure, or the least output
of anything that they possibly could to run an organization. I don t
know whether I am right or not.
JH: What do you think about the average Negro these days? For instance,
would you say we ve become militant?
Daly: Well, I ll tell you. I believe in fighting. You never get anything
for nothing. The white man came here and the Indian began to fight
him. He had to fight because the white man was taking his country.
And we can t get it unless vre do some fighting for it . If we want
something we ve got to fight for it. We ve got to shed blood. There
is no doubt about it . So if we want to go along in this world we *ve
got to get in there and fight too. I believe in fighting.
But I don t believe in just going wild over it. Getting mad
about everything . Some people walk around with a chip on their
shoulder. Well I don t do that. Some people have it, they nail it
right on their shoulder or on their head. I don t. I wear my feel
ings in the bottom of my shoes. I walk on my feelings and then nobody
can hurt me. That s the way I always say it.
JH: I think that is a very good way of expressing it.
Daly: Is it? That is what I always say, walk on your feelings and nobody
can hurt you. They might hurt you but you don t hurt them.
JH: Well Mr. Daly, on behalf of Bancroft Library I want to thank you for
this interview.
Daly: You re welcome. I m glad that I could help you. If I had ever felt
that I would be requested to do this I would have kept a book or some
thing, you know. But I never believed it. Never thought once that
anybody would ever want a history of it.
Daly: I think about young people now. I m glad to see them fighting to
get things and I d help them. In fact, I have given an organiza
tion money. But they don t know if it was from me or somebody else
because I didn *t want to get involved . So I sent them money for
different things.
Now I sent some Catholics money for different homes and things
all over the country. Some of them write me back and some of them
don t. I am always glad when they don t write me. I give things
not for the sake of giving it, but to do some good, and not that I
want any publicity. When I donate anything I never ask them to give
my name.
Since the early forties I have belonged to the Century Club of
the YMCA and we always give $100 to the YMCA every year. Besides
that we give to so many other things, but the YMCA is one. That is
for boys.
Transcriber: Arlene Weber
Final typist: Beverly R. Heinrichs
48
INDEX -- E.A. Daly
Alameda County Board of Supervisors, 33
Alameda County Republican League, 26-29
Albrier, Frances, 27
American Legion, 15
appointments to public office, 41-43
Beasley, Delilah, 24, 31
Beavers, Jeff, 42
Berkeley Gazette, 8
Blackburn, Roy, 37
Breed, Arthur, Jr., 31-32
Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, 20-22
Brown, Edmund G. , 45-47
Brown, Edmund G. , Jr., 45
Bussey, John, 43
California Voice. 11, 17-21, 30
campaigns, congressional
(1932), 30
(1936), 28-29
campaigns, gubernatorial
(1958), 39
(1966), 40, 45
campaigns, state senate
(1938), 31-32
Catholic Church, 41
churches, 26-27
civil rights
"blockbusting", 10
Clark College, 2
Daly family, 1
Daly, Lillian Madora Hilton (Mrs. E.A.), 7
Davis, Walter, 34
DeGaulle, Charles, 5
Dellums, C.L. , 20
Dellums, Ron, 21
Dixon, Lillian, 27, 32
49
Electric- House Cleaning Co., 8-9
Enu ryvl 1 lo , city of
gaming in, 33-34
employment, 7, 37
in real estate, 11
in U.S. Post Office, 29-30
Fair Employment Practices Commission [FEPC] , 37
Fishner, Charles W., 28-29, 32,37
Flowers, Jesse, 26
fraternal organizations, 12-16
Gaming, in Emeryville, 33-34
Goodlett, Carlton, 42
Gordon, Walter A. , 37
Gray, E.B., 31
Henderson, John, 18
Higgs, Mr. and Mrs. Leo, 21
Hoover, Herbert, 20
Jones, Louis, 27
judges, Appointment of, 41-43
Kaiser, Edgar, 36
Kelly, Mike, 15, 23-25, 34, 35
Knight, Goodwin J., 38-44
Knights of Pythias, 15
Knowland, Joseph, Sr. , 23-24, 34
Knowland, William, 15, 24-25, 31-32, 36, 39
Knowland faction, 23-25, 28, 30
labor
Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, 20-22
Loving, Walter H. , Major (U.S. Army Ret.), 21-22
lynchings, 40
Marshall, Errol, 11
Masons, 12-15
McFarlane, Leslie, 27
Morris Brown College, 2
Mullins, John, 34
50
National Newspaper Publishers Assn., 16
newspaper guilds, 16
newspapers, 17-22
Nixon, Richard M. , 41
Oakland Lime and Cement Co., 8
Oakland Post-Enquirer, 8
Oakland Tribune. 8, 24
Odd Fellows, 15
politics, patronage, 25
Pullman Company, 21-22
racial segregation
in fraternal organizations, 12-16
World War I, 5-6
Randolph, A. Philip, 2, 20
Real Estate, 11
Republican Party (Alameda County), 23-37
Roland, Gene, 31
Rolph, John, 40
"Rolphing", 40
Rumford, William Byron, 18
Shortridge, Samuel, 30, 31
Shriners, 13-14
Stanford University, 20
Taleadega College, 2
Taylor, [Mandelu] John, 30
United States Army, 4-6
Vaughns, George, 27, 42
Veterans of Foreign Wars, 15
51
Warren, Earl, 13, 15, 19-20, 34, 37, 41
West, Ellis, 11
Wixson, Clif, 33
women in politics, 27
World War I, 4-6
YMCA, 47
University of California Bancroft Library/ Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office
Sari Warren Oral History Project
John Bruce
A REPORTER REMEMBERS EARL WARREN
An Interview Conducted by
June Hogan
1972 by The Regents of The University of California
TABLE OP CONTENTS John Bruce A REPORTER REMEMBERS EARL WARREN
I UNIVERSITY OP CALIFORNIA DAYS 1
II WARREN S EARLY ALAMEDA COUNTY CAREER 4
III CAREER AS A JOURNALIST 7
Bay Area Hearst Papers 7
Chronicle City Editor 9
INTERVIEW HISTORY
John Bruce was interviewed by the Regional Oral History
Office in order to record his acquaintance with Earl Warren,
first as a fellow student at the University of California at
Berkeley and later as an Oakland reporter covering the county
courts when Warren was in the district attorney s office.
Interviewers
Time and Set
ting of the
Intervlewi
Mrs. June Hogan, interviewer on the staff of the
Regional Oral History Office, and former
colleague of Mr. Bruce *s on the staff of the
San Francisco Chronicle.
Mr. Bruce was interviewed at his home In Tiburon,
California, on September 9, 19^9 by Mrs. Hogan.
Recently retired from a distinguished career In
Bay Area Journalism and the United States State
Department, Mr. Bruce was diffident about the
contribution he could make to the present oral
history of the Earl Warren Era in California
affairs. In reviewing the transcript or his
interview, he used a firm editorial hand to
delete remarks which he felt devoted too much
attention to his own careers preferring rather
to focus on his observations of Warren.
Bruce is the author of The Ganiy Century, a
lively history of the freewheeling journalism
of early California and its frequent forays into
politics. Warren himself benefited from this
tradition by the Interest that publishers
Joseph R. Knowland and Irving Martin Jr. took in his
early career, as described in this series by
interviewees Verne Scogglns and Merrell F.
Small, both of whom served on Warren s staff
while he was governor.
Gabrielle Morris,
Assistant Editor
12 October 1971
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
I UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAYS
Hogan: You were born in Seattle?
Bruce: Yes, I was born in Seattle.
Hogan: And you came to California
Bruce: My father was a stone carver. He had Just come over
from Scotland, and the only non-Indian, I guess, who ever
carved totem poles.
We were on the out-skirts of Seattle, the city
limits. Stone carving Jobs were very slim. Not much
building going on. The Indians brought in the logs and
my father cut the figures. You couldn t tell the
difference from those made by the Indians.
I went to U.C. in the fall of "13. Earl Warren
was already a fifth year man. Yet I remember quite a bit
about him. I don t know why, particularly after all this
length of time, that I remember that maybe because
of the association with him later. He was a big
fellow, very handsome and already into college politics.
Hogan: Was there much college politics?
Bruce: Oh, yes. They had politics. Even to honor societies.
To make one, you had to be a so-called prominent campus
character of some sort, editors of the magazines and
things like that, or track men and football men.
But some got in who were also good students. I
remember Earl was in that and got a lot of experience
for future use.
In those days there was a big campaign for the
president of the student body, ASUC. There was
committee work and there was some work in those days with
Bruce i the campus committee and the president on minor
complaints. There was also a faculty committee that
censored the student newspaper, the Dally Gal, the
Occident and the Pelican.
If a too vulgar word of the day got In (It would
be more likely to get Into the Pelican) , there
would be hell to pay. The editor was called before the
board or even the president. In an extreme case you
could be fired, expelled. I never knew It to happen,
but I do know that In the Pelican one year there was
a kind of a light, sexy Joke and there was hell to
pay. That editor was called up and he wasn t expelled,
but he was threatened with It and told that If It
was repeated, he was out of the university. He was
already a senior. You had to be a senior to be an
editor. So he became a good boy and apologized and
all that.
Hogan: Did you work on the Dally Cal or the Pelican?
Bruce i
Well, I worked a little with the Dally Cal and then I
went toward the Occident. I don t know whether that
Is In existence or not anymore. It was owned and
operated by the English Club. So was the Pelican.
But let s go back to Warren!
I was only a frosh and I wasn t In on too much by
any means. I was doing sports for the Chronicle at
the same time, at 20 cents an Inch printed.
Hogan t About how big was the school at that time?
Bruce i Well, I think there were three thousand In my class.
That would make eleven thousand students In there at
that time.
Hogan i Well, then If you were aware of Earl Warren he
certainly must have been a politico of some note on
campus .
Bruce i Yes, as I mentioned a little while ago, he was*
Hogan i Were you aware of him In any of the athletics?
Bruce I do remember that he was manager of the varsity base
ball team.
Hoocanj Was he a big fellow then? Because apparently in high
school he was quite small for his age*
Bruce: He was? I Just can t Imagine Earl Warren being small
anytime.
Hogan : Do you remember him then as a handsome fellow?
Bruce i Yes, I do. Earl was very handsome. I always remember
him as being big. He was twenty-two when I first knew
him.
Just knew him on the campus and knew he was a big
shot and had a name and a great many people knew Earl
Warren by sight. I talked to him several times.
As I said, I was doing sports on the Chronicle and I
covered baseball news when the season was on and I
talked many times to Earl Warren at that time.
After the war, I went to the Oakland office of
the S.F. Chronicle. I got the court beat, which had
not only all superior courts, all the county offices,
the SBsessor, the board of supervisors. And on
Franklin Street, nearby, was the only emergency hospital
In Alameda County In those days.
The first day, the draft trial of John Nedderman,
chief of police of Oakland was starting.
II WARREN S EARLY ALAMEDA COUNTY CAREER
Bruce: In the courthouse I spotted Earl Warren. He was
starting as a deputy D.A. on the same day. We
remembered each other, exchanged condolences on both
being so green at our new Jobs. His first assign
ments turned out to be some "cheap" rape cases from
San Leandro that the other deputies in the D.A. s
office didn t want to bother with.
Hogani How was he as a prosecutor?
Bruce i Earnest.
Hogani But not much courtroom experience, before that.
Bruce i No, those were office Jobs. Associated Oil, Robinson
and Robinson before the war. He went to Sacramento
upon return as a clerk with the Assembly Judiciary
Committee In the fall of 1919* then he came back with
Leon Gray, the city attorney. He was Jumping around,
and I rather understand that, because Earl Warren
was always ambitious. Always. He was ambitious In a
very intelligent way. He wasn t Just Jumping into a
Job to get a spot or a little more salary. He was
going places, always. Terribly honest sort of person.
He did things right and grumbled about things that
were wrong, he used veterans groups, made speeches,
got known. Yet when it came to filling the D.A. s
Job when Ezra Decoto got a state position, his
appointment was a tremendous surprise. He was still
only a deputy at that time. All of us took it for
granted that Frank Shay had the Job. Frank was a
veteran deputy and had very good political support.
Hogani Warren was counsel for the board of supervisors, which
of course, did the appointing.
Bruce; Yes, that was so, too. He was a good man. He
wasn t any scattered guy at all.
Hoganj But you said this came as a surprise to reporters.
Bruce i
Absolutely. We were all wrong about It and we were
quite close to It and close to several supervisors, and
still, none had ever tipped his hand. Prank Shay
didn t expect It either. Our offices had Prank s
pictures out and his background story set because we
were so sure the appointment was going to Shay.
Hogan Did you know this John Mullins, who was the swing vote
on the board of supervisors?
Bruce Yes, from covering the meetings. But that s all. I
don t really know to this day why the appointment was
made. What the politics were in it, I haven t the
slightest idea. Both were already in politics, but
Shay did not have the appearance or charm of Earl
Warren. Shay resigned and went back home down somewhere
in the San Joaquln Valley.
Hogan: Were you still reporting then when Warren was appointed
district attorney?
Bruce: Let s see now. I think that would be 25 No. I
had founded the East Bay Call for Hearst as a supple
ment to the S.F. Call. I was still in Oakland and
had close connections with the beat. I had a reporter
who covered the beat down there who gave me all the
information. I was naturally Interested in Earl
Warren, knowing him so well by then.
Hogan What sort of cases did they have besides rape?
Bruce Well, of course rape was a minor thing. Mostly
annoying trial routine. There was a lot of graft
around Oakland in those days. A lot of officials got
in hot water. There was a great scandal case. There
was even a criminal libel case against a little
fellow who ran a weekly muckraking Job. He did a bad
story on Ezra. Decoto and Ezra Decoto met him in the hall
way of the courthouse and punched him down the stairs.
There were lots of trivial but newsy incidents going
on. I don t recall any big story, although I ve seen
Earl in court several times when he was district attorney
and he was darned good. Very good and sharp.
Bruce i When he was appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court It was
said that he never had been a Judge and lacked
experience. True, but he was on the other side of
the Judge s bench and had done a great deal of trial
work. He was a good lawyer.
Hogani Some people have suggested that he wasn t so concerned
about civil liberties of the accused when he was a
district attorney and a deputy district attorney as he
became when he was Supreme Court Justice. Do you have
any recollection of any Incidents like that?
Bruce I don t recall any. However, I remember the I.W.W.
case, which 1 covered. He was a deputy then. Those
poor stiffs went to San Quentln entirely because of their
thinking. They weren t even throwing rooks.
Hogant Was this a case that Warren prosecuted?
Bruce i No, don t think so. Pretty sure It wasn t, because
as I say, I covered It and I would remember that. But
he was In the office and the< office was very small and
well knit and they certainly talked over those oases
before they went to trial. Ezra Deooto I am sure
carried that case along with some other deputy. I can
still hear those men, leaving the courtroom, headed
for San Quentln, yelling out their songt "Behind
the cold, grey walls we go!"
Hogan: These I.W.W. people weren t Negroes, were they?
Bruce i Oh, no, they were Wobblies. That was purely a hate
thing. But It was the thinking of the day. The
war wasn t over very long the American Legion was
pouncing on anybody who didn t still think war.
Ill CAREER AS A JOURNALIST
Bay Area Hearst Papers
Hogan: How long did you stay there with the Oakland bureau of
the Chronicle?
Bruce: Well, I stayed there until 23 when I founded a
paper for the Call.
Hogan Is this the San Francisco Call that we are talking about?
Bruce Yes, but the Oakland office was a little odd deal. It was
called the East Bay Call and was Hearst owned.
Hearst also owned the Oakland Post. The East Bay Call
was a four page paper which was Inserted Into the Call
when It reached the east lay. It had only east bay
news. The Post, the small paper, bought the
privately owned Enquirer and became the Post-Enquirer.
Hearst ordered them to go on their own. It no longer
was going to be inserted into the Call. So the Call
wanted a paper to take the Post s place and asked me
to form it.
We had a staff of three men and a cameraman.
The deadline was three o clock of the day before it
came out so you know what kind of a paper it wasi full
of features, big spreads and montages and all that
kind of stuff. It lasted Just nine months, so we
called it still-born. They didn t get an ad except
some small theater notices.
That was all there was to it. We threw the staff
out and I took over all of the elast Bay beat for the s.F.
Call . Even enabled me to get a fllwer by giving
me fifty dollars a week expenses. With a cameraman, I
used to charge all over that place. I d do police
8
Bruoei early In the morning for anything the Call might
want. Then the features. There wasn t a cent of
profit in it and finally a deal was made with the Post-
Enquirer for coverage. I went over to 8.F. as a
reporter.
Hogan: In the San Francisco office of the Call?
Bruce: Yes, under Gene Block. I became a regular reporter,
became the assistant city editor and city editor. (I
was city editor for seven years.) That was a killer.
I had, believe it or not, two managing editors. They
disliked each other. One of them had come from the
New York Journal, where Hearst, without explanation,
had suddenly put another favorite in the N.Y. Job.
Told the ousted managing editor to take over at
San Francisco. Went there, and found another man
already in the chair, who also had not been fired.
It lasted for two years. Ed Gleason, who had been
put in by editor Fremont Older, and the New Yorker
both got good salaries, quarreled, countermanded
each other. And I was In the middle t finally went
sicklsh.
In those days the Examiner was closing its
city desk at 3i30 a.m. If the night city editor thought
he had anything I should know, he called me up,
broke what little sleep I was getting* I told Older
I was through. He went to see Hearst, told him he
had two managing editors for two years. Hearst said:
"Is that so? Odd, isn t it? Make the New York man
the real managing editor." The other ex-managing
editor was made city editor. Hearst did not even
bother to ask if Older already had a city editor. I
was asked to start a column, which we named "Skylines."
Wrote it until 1935. At that time I was political
editor of the Call, covered the legislature, did all
important interviews with Hearst-friendly politicians.
On the side, turned out what they called the "Green
Flash," which was a four page daily supplement. This
is all very difficult to comprehend nowadays with the
Guild. Of course the column suffered terribly. You
couldn t go get anything. You weren t there to
receive calls and tips and things.
Chronicle City Editor
Bruce i So, I told the Chronicle boys that I was looking to
get out and Jack Robinson, who was then the olty
editor, asked me to come up and take his day olty
desk, which I did in 1935* I stayed there until
51. Robinson was discharged -- died eventually and
I took over as city editor for the next sixteen years.
Now, having good friends in B.C. I did what
few newsmen ever do changed my entire career. Went
to the U.Si state department and worked all over the
world. I was press attache at several embassies, worked
closely with James Conant, president-dmeritus of Harvard
in Germany but mostly became a so-called mid-east
expert, learned Pars! in Iran, etc., etc., etc. But
that s a different story than we re after. So back
to Warren.
Hogani You saw Warren after he became district attorney?
Bruce i Yes, on and off, only. Not very often. But, you
know one thing I remember. He became attorney general
and Republican national commit teeman, which is a
big Job, very powerful Job. It makes you really head
of the state Republican party.
There was a very hot election in *38 when Olson,
the liberal got in as governor. The Republican party
took an awful licking. Merrlam was their man. Olson
was very radical for his day, you know. Sheridan Downey,
who was a Democrat, was also elected U.S. Senator
at that time. The Republican party was Just falling
apart. They were careless and they felt, "Oh, so
what," you know, that kind of an attitude all over the
place. Landon had been licked in 36. They were
quarreling among themselves.
That election night we were doing a live radio
show from the Chronicle s editorial office. Regular
election night coverage. We got Earl Warren in to say
something. Most of the asked Republicans, by the way,
wouldn t come in. But Earl Warren came in because he
had courage. He tore into his own Republicans with
real vigor. Really poured it on. That speech is worth
hunting up in the newspaper files. He really started
the natives.
10
Hogan This would have been In November, 1938*
Bruce: I got off of the city desk and went Into the little
office behind and I was standing behind and listening
to this very honest, courageous guy Just tearing Into
his own sweet citizens, you know, who had failed the
party. He was aatlonal dommitteeman and was therefore
listened to as an Important fellow. He took them
apart for falling to come through to do their part In
an election and lackadaisical effort of all sorts.
He didn t say anything about falling to contribute
at all, as they do now. But I guess that was In
his mind, all right. The startling thing was , of course,"
that a very Important man who later on.was to "be made governor
by his own party In a big way, took them on and
called them names. I thought that took a lot of
courage because he was always ambitious and I think
he already had the governorship In his mind and yet he
faced his own party down and gave It a licking. I
think that shows a great deal about his character,
and why he went far.
Hogan: Did Warren regularly come back to the Chronicle, then?
Bruce i No, we never saw him much at all, but that one night we
wanted some Republican to face the public on this and
say what he thought and Earl Warren said, "Sure, I ll
be right down."
Wonderful guy, Earl Warren, even later on when
he was governor, I always remember. I hadn t seen
him for a while. I was still editorial writer for the
Chronicle. I was up In Sacramento there with Earl
Behrens. I went Into the press conference and he
greeted me like a long lost brother. After the press
conference he asked me to stay around awhile. We sat
and talked about the old days down on the beat, mostly,
when he used to get all the little cheap cases. Rapes
out In San Leandro.
Hogan: This was when he was deputy D.A.?
Bruce t Yes. We ve always kidded about that, the crummy cases
he s handled In his time. Even when I saw him later
at the Embassy In Bonn, Germany. He came through
there when he was Chief Justice. We kidded then about
the "cheap"
little cases. He said, "You didn t have
much of a Job, either. You were covering them, I seet"
11
Bruce: One time while the capltol annex was being built we
decided to Inspect It. The governor and I paddled
through. In one place they were plastering the wall. It
fell down on us. You should have seen us! The
governor of the state covered with lime dust working
his way out of this thing. But that s the kind of
guy he was. He didn t pay much attention to It. We
brushed ourselves off and we kept on going through.
Hogan: He was not concerned with appearances?
Bruce: He s always appeared placid to me. The big fuss that
came down on him on the civil rights decisions? He
was the calmest guy that ever took a beating. Always
was. Always smooth, quiet, determined.
Hogan: He was always supposed to have had very good press
relations. Is this your impression, too?
Bruce: Yes, it is. He was a very likable type of person, you
know. He never had any temper that I ever saw, though
I imagine he had it. He was always known as a family
man. He married a widow with one child and then he had
quite a large family of his own. He always mentioned them.
It s really a typical, American family.
Hogan: I met her at one of these Salvation Army bazaars they
used to have in the old civic auditorium. The
governor s wife was always the honorary chairman. She
used to bring down cakes from Sacramento. You know,
she baked them herself and contributed them.
Bruce: Yes, she was a great help to him, I ll tell you. She
knew how to handle people.
Transcriber i Jane Burnett
Final Typist: Gloria Dolan
12
John Bruce: A REPORTER REMEMBERS EARL WARREN
Alameda County
board of supervisors 3, 4
district attorney s office 4-6, 10
American Legion 6
Assembly Judiciary Committee 4
Associated Oil Company 4
Behrens, Earl 10
Block, Gene b
civil liberties 6
civil rights 11
Conant , James 9
Decoto, Ezra 4, 5
Downey, Sheridan 9
East Bay Call 5 7
Gleason, Edward b
Gray, Leon 4
Green Flash, The
Hearst, William Randolph 5, 7, b
Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) "Wobblies". 6
Landon, Alfred M. 9
Herriam, Frank P. 9
Mullins, John 5
Medderman, John
trial of, 3
Newspaper Guild, The b
Mew York Journal b
13
Oakland Post 7
Older, Fremont B
Olson , Culbert 9
Post Enquirer ? f tf
Republican Party 9, 10
Robinson and Robinson 4
Robinson, Jack 9
Salvation Army bazaars 11
San Francisco Call 5 7 8
San Francisco Chronicle 2, 3 7 # 9-10
San Francisco Examiner t>
Shay, Prank 4-5
United States
Department of State 9
Embassies
Germany 9 10
Iran 9
Press Attache 9
Supreme Court 6, 10
University of California at Berkeley 1-3
Warren, Earl 1-6, 9-11
Miriam Feingold
Graduated from Swarthmore College in 1963
with a B.A. degree, and from the University
of Wisconsin in 1966 with an K.A. degree in
American history. Completing requirements for
a I*h.p. jln American history from the University
of Wisconsin. Graduate studies also include
criminology.
Worked in field services and oral history
for the State Historical Society of Wisconsin,
1966-196?.
Taught American history at San Jose City
College, 1970.
Joined the staff of the Regional Oral History
Office in December, 1969 as an interviewer
for the Earl Warren Project specializing in
law enforcement and corrections, and local
political history.
Joyce A. Henderson
Graduated from California State University, Hayward
in 1968 with a B.A. degree and in 1972 with an M.A.
degree, both in English.
Taught freshman and remedial English at California
State University, 1969-72. Also taught at Laney
College, Oakland, 1971-72.
Joined the staff of the Regional Oral History
Office in June, 1970.
Conducted interviews on Negro Political History.
Served as educational consultant for Regional Oral
History Office.
June Cunningham Hogan
Studied at Mills College, B.A. from
Northwestern University, 1944.
Assistant editor, Ladies Home Journal,
Philadelphia, 1944-46. Instructor in
journalism, Connecticut College of
Commerce, New Haven; staff writer fcr
Connecticut Circle magazine, 1946-48.
Reporter for San Francisco Chronicle,
1948-55, specializing in women s news
with emphasis on women s organization s
such as League of Women Voters, Pro
America, Business and Professional
Women s Club. During this period, met
and interviewed members of the Warren
clan, from Honey Bear to the Chief Justice,
Supervised research, planning and
publications, primarily in local
government and education, for League
of Women Voters and other citizen
groups, 1955-
Joined Regional Oral History Office as
interviewer-editor in 1969.
U. C. BERKELEY LIBRARIES